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Yohan
10-16-2014, 05:25 PM
http://soccerly.com/article/soccerly/full-don-garber-teleconfrence-about-klinsmanns-mls-comments

The entire phone call. You be the judge

Derko
10-16-2014, 05:39 PM
http://soccerly.com/article/soccerly/full-don-garber-teleconfrence-about-klinsmanns-mls-comments

The entire phone call. You be the judge

You know, I have all respect for Klinsmann, and all those other experts over in Europe with more history, but we have to start somewhere, and to develop the World Game you have to give a little. I mean look at Africa for fuck sake, they were really nothing 40 years ago. I know it is wishful thinking, but the EPL, Bundasliga, Serie A, and La Liga snobs and the Euro Media can go fuck themselves.

I don't blame Garber for defending the quality of the league and players that he is running, sure it can be a bit bush league, but it is what we have and either you go for the ride or you sit it out.

evermorian
10-16-2014, 06:04 PM
While I like Garber in general for what he has done for mls and soccer in North America, I think he went over the line with his comments, and put himself in a bad light as a result. If you look at what Klinnsman said, he did not bash mls but made a point that he wished America's best players would be playing at the highest level, which is not the mls but the champions league. Klinnsman actually had praise for mls in his comments. With that context in mind, Garber totally took what Klinnsman said out of context. To say that Klinnsman must tow the party line and not critique the mls because he gets his paycheque from the ussf is laughable. It makes Garber and mls come off as some weird control- freak entity. I can see where both are coming from. Klinnsman has to look out for the best interests of the usmnt whilst garner has to look out for mls. Garber though came off looking like some foolish control freak, at least in my opinion. While mls is growing, it is still nowhere near the level of being a top 4 league in the world, and Klinnsman is right in stating that the US's best players should be playing at the highest level of soccer, which currently is in the Champions league and Europe.

brad
10-16-2014, 06:34 PM
I used to think that having the players competing at the highest level was critical to international success. Based on results in recent international tournaments - I'm not so sure. Having players play in a technically proficient league - sure. Having players play with an identifiable style that they can work in a system with. Sure.

But playing at the top level doesn't guauruntee success. If anything - I'm starting to think playing at the top level is detrimental to international success due to the number of games players at that level are playing and the wear and tear on their bodies as a result. Lots of these guys are showing up injured and exhausted.

Yohan
10-16-2014, 06:54 PM
^Arguably, MLS players (and other Mar to Nov leagues) are a little more fresh come WC or other summer tourneys, because their bodies are in mid season form, and aren't exhausted yet.

jazzy
10-16-2014, 07:08 PM
nice job in opening this topic with the sound bite . I do say to the top league snobs F. off , but off course they are right, and I don't give a shit. We do have to start somewhere and we're giving it a go . Klinnsman is bravely telling it like it is and probably trying to wake up MLS . The rich fat owners , yes there are a few have to go into this with their hearts and not just their accountants if this league is to make the next step . The owners and their leader Garber with their personal brand of player ownership and quasi private rules does make us bush league . Garber seems very defensive in his answer . He's been called out and knows Klinnsman is right . Of course it is ridiculous to even suggest we could be anywhere a top quality league now and that is why Garber is on the complete wrong track in his defensiveness. If he knew his facts he should have used them , in how fast we are growing and the quality of many players that we sent to the world cup , etc,...Garber now shows we need a new commissioner , one that moves us quicker to assimilating the top leagues, what with teams having more ownership, input and control of the 'DP' situation . We need to have FIFA breaks as well where it is easier for our players to shine playing for their countries with adequate travel periods . I do reiterate that it had to be said if we are to fight back properly and strengthen our league . I will be there for the long hall . I mean anyone who has to watch England in world matches should not complain about MLS . :hide:

brad
10-16-2014, 07:15 PM
^Arguably, MLS players (and other Mar to Nov leagues) are a little more fresh come WC or other summer tourneys, because their bodies are in mid season form, and aren't exhausted yet.

I think this is a huge advantage, and part of the reason the U.S. did as well as they did.

ensco
10-16-2014, 07:16 PM
This thread needs a sticky. Wow. Wow. Wow.

You know, I read the quotes, and was amazed. But...having just listened to this, I am more amazed. Is that the most incredible press conference ever?

I think there is a very real chance that Klinsmann goes as a result of this. Garber is demanding at least a muzzling, and probably a retraction ("Jurgen has to embrace the vision"), or Klinsmann's head, and USSF can't go it alone without MLS.

National teams get a free ride. They don't pay players but make a ton of money off them. Owners have every right to be pissed off about this. Klinsmann is totally right on the issue, but the business implications of Klinsmann speaking the truth are not small.

It'll be Bradley coming to TFC, not Defoe, that is the bloody big deal, in the end.

btw Garber came off sounding like a total twat about caliber of MLS play, impact on Bradley/Dempsey, Donovan, and the football side. He came from the NFL for chrissakes. Garber needed to let someone else deal with that side of it, my gut reaction is the same one I had listening to Anselmi talk to season ticket holders about TFC's playing style, which was/is a desire to power vomit.

Yohan
10-16-2014, 08:45 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/17/us-soccer-usa-klinsmann-idUSKCN0I603620141017

Klinsmann's response. seems someone told him about damage control

evermorian
10-16-2014, 09:05 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/17/us-soccer-usa-klinsmann-idUSKCN0I603620141017

Klinsmann's response. seems someone told him about damage control

He's just clarifying his remarks, but he is essentially saying the same thing he said in his earlier comments, about his wish for America's top players to challenge themselves at the highest levels. It is totally amazing how much Garber read into Klinnsmans comments. Does he actually have the power to fire Klinnsman or is there a separation of powers between the National team and the domestic league?

Yohan
10-16-2014, 09:08 PM
He's just clarifying his remarks, but he is essentially saying the same thing he said in his earlier comments, about his wish for America's top players to challenge themselves at the highest levels. It is totally amazing how much Garber read into Klinnsmans comments. Does he actually have the power to fire Klinnsman or is there a separation of powers between the National team and the domestic league?
MLS-SUM-USSF are all connected. Garber is one of directors at USSF. I don't know if Garber has power by himself to get Sunil Gulati to fire Klinsmann, but apparently a lot of people with money are annoyed with Klinsmann. money talks

ensco
10-16-2014, 10:57 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/17/us-soccer-usa-klinsmann-idUSKCN0I603620141017

Klinsmann's response. seems someone told him about damage control

No. Klinsy's standing his ground, not retracting. The idea that he would try to sell the idea of "debate" about the degree of suckitude of MLS...to Garber's bosses....

He's gone. Let the countdown begin.

Cashcleaner
10-17-2014, 01:12 AM
After reading the transcripts and hearing the soundbites over the past few days, all I'll say is this: There is no such thing as bad publicity.

While Klinsmann's remarks do not reflect kindly on the league and Garber is likely legitimately upset by what was said; but I can't help but think this whole thing is being overblown somewhat - and probably intentionally just to keep the league and the USSF in the headlines a bit longer.

Anyway, Screamer has a pretty interesting article that sums much of the whole news up for us fans:

Screamer - MLS Commissioner has some dumb shit to say about Jurgen Klinsmann (http://screamer.deadspin.com/mls-commissioner-has-some-dumb-shit-to-say-about-jurgen-1646865508)

dutch
10-20-2014, 03:02 AM
euro media rejoices and will be using jurgen's comments even 20 years from now, every time MLS is mentioned overseas. fuck
I see both sides. I dont think klinnsman saw the implications ahead of time. WOULD HE SIGN FOR TFC?????
U.S only pays him 2.5m and this dosent affect cap. MLSE has the pockets for it and owes us large lmao

Yohan
11-14-2014, 02:06 PM
http://www.espnfc.com/team/united-states/660/blog/post/2145959/jurgen-klinsmann-firm-on-young-player-advice-as-mls-frustration-grows

it seems Garber is right about Klinsmann sabotaging MLS

OgtheDim
11-14-2014, 09:54 PM
Now that puts a slightly different light on things.

evermorian
11-15-2014, 03:47 AM
http://www.espnfc.com/team/united-states/660/blog/post/2145959/jurgen-klinsmann-firm-on-young-player-advice-as-mls-frustration-grows

it seems Garber is right about Klinsmann sabotaging MLS

Sabotaging is a bit of a strong word to be using. I don't necessarily think its a bad thing for the best young players to be heading to Europe, as academies like Schalke and Manchester United can offer superior training and competition than most mls academies. I think its still a result of two different theories. Klinsmann has a mindset that the best place to go to grow as a player resides in Europe, and on a whole I would tend to agree with him there. If I were a player right now my destination would certainly be Europe as that is not only the most competitive place to go, but also a place where the money is greater.

I can totally see the mls's teams side of the argument too. It would suck for players that they've invested heavily in to all of a sudden decide to move to Europe. The team gets no money from the player. Unfortunatley, however, this is a reality for soccer clubs everywhere. If the mls truly wants to retain its younger stars then they have to prove much better than they are now that mls is the best place for them. I think that it is starting to slowly turn in that direction, with the formation of usl pro teams and an increase in the cab. The environment is being created. But as Gulati reiterated in the article, he doesn't believe it is a pattern with Klinsmann, that he is telling every young star that they should go to Europe. He is merely suggesting to some of them that Europe might be the best place to go. And frankly, for most players world wide, Europe is seen as the final destination, the dream.

ensco
11-15-2014, 06:58 AM
The US "success" in World Cups, and where they are in world football, is misunderstood. Klinsmann is right.

The USMNT have a massive advantage because they can build stability/momentum. They get a free pass to the World Cup, because of Concacaf. Look at all the great countries in Europe that have trouble getting back - Poland, Romania, Austria, Czech Republic ... Belgium hadn't made it in 12 years and goes straight to the final 8.

They have also just been very lucky in recent WCs. US keep beating Mexico in qualifying , and drawing Portugal (Portugal and Mexican failure is a whole other subject). The US were outplayed by Ghana but won. The Belgium game was ridiculously onesided. They got an undeserved draw against England in 2010. Italy lost their heads against them in 2006.

Name a game in a WC where the US should have got a result, but didn't.

Because of all this, and the stupid Fifa rankings, the US mistakenly thinks it is close. It is not. Japan and Australia may not have had good WCs, but they are probably closer, with more elite players that have prominent roles in Europe.

On a neutral site, playing a 7 game series against one of the non WC euro teams I mentioned, the US would lose.

The "success" can't be built on.

Klinsmann will be fired for it, but he is doing the right thing.

Initial B
11-15-2014, 09:13 AM
I'm okay with what Klinsmann is doing, mostly because it doesn't really affect us here in Canada short-term. I don't think he'll be fired for it since it's the USSF/FIFA that controls MLS, not the other way around. No other sports league (except maybe the NBA) has to play second fiddle to a major international body. MLS simply can't take it's ball and go home. This is the right thing to do considering the current quality level of player development/coaching in North America, but in 20 years I can see the coaching/training infrastructure developed enough that Europe will not necessarily be the better option.

ensco
11-15-2014, 09:47 AM
btw Klinsmann put his money where his mouth is, by starting an 18 year old, Rubio Rubin, in the friendly against Colombia last night. Rubin just went from the Timbers Academy to Holland.

ensco
11-15-2014, 10:17 AM
This is fascinating. Just saw this. MLS owners are screwed. Those who say Klinsmann won't be fired are right.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2014/10/22/mls-us-soccer-partner-img-market-media-rights-until-2022

MLS owners have spent a billion dollars on something that their broadcast rights "partner" is peeing all over.

MLS can hurt USSF a bit (by making callups difficult/cumbersome), but unless they can exercise some sort of influence at the USSF board level, to rein Klinsmann in, or get him canned, they are screwed.

The reality is, Klinsmann's export-driven model is not exactly revolutionary. Ghana, Ireland, Algeria all do it.

Yohan
11-15-2014, 02:01 PM
This is fascinating. Just saw this. MLS owners are screwed. Those who say Klinsmann won't be fired are right.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2014/10/22/mls-us-soccer-partner-img-market-media-rights-until-2022

MLS owners have spent a billion dollars on something that their broadcast rights "partner" is peeing all over.

MLS can hurt USSF a bit (by making callups difficult/cumbersome), but unless they can exercise some sort of influence at the USSF board level, to rein Klinsmann in, or get him canned, they are screwed.

The reality is, Klinsmann's export-driven model is not exactly revolutionary. Ghana, Ireland, Algeria all do it.
And those domestic leagues suck.

Yohan
11-15-2014, 02:03 PM
I'm okay with what Klinsmann is doing, mostly because it doesn't really affect us here in Canada short-term. I don't think he'll be fired for it since it's the USSF/FIFA that controls MLS, not the other way around. No other sports league (except maybe the NBA) has to play second fiddle to a major international body. MLS simply can't take it's ball and go home. This is the right thing to do considering the current quality level of player development/coaching in North America, but in 20 years I can see the coaching/training infrastructure developed enough that Europe will not necessarily be the better option.

if MLS teams decide that the youth programs aren't worth it, because they don't get benefits from it, they'll just shut it down. Why pay for a youth program when other teams can poach your best players for free? You're just a sucker if you develop kids for other teams for free.

evermorian
11-15-2014, 02:58 PM
if MLS teams decide that the youth programs aren't worth it, because they don't get benefits from it, they'll just shut it down. Why pay for a youth program when other teams can poach your best players for free? You're just a sucker if you develop kids for other teams for free.

Welcome to the world of football. Unfortunately, it is a reality all over the world, where teams best academy players are sometimes poached with no financial benefit in return. MLS clubs will need to live with the fact that soccer is a global game. I doubt they would ever stop their youth academies because that would be a massive step backwards for any club. MLS and its clubs needs to continue to do a better job of nurturing an environment where academy kids want to stay. But there will always be academy kids who will want to go to greener pastures. RSL, LA, Seattle have all done a decent job at keeping their best players, but they have also had many leave as well. Having no youth system would be a massive step back for clubs and mls as a whole so I don't ever see them getting rid of it entirely. I see it as them just complaining (with good reason), but even the best teams in the world get their academy players poached without any compensation (ie. barcelona).

Yohan
11-15-2014, 06:03 PM
Welcome to the world of football. Unfortunately, it is a reality all over the world, where teams best academy players are sometimes poached with no financial benefit in return. MLS clubs will need to live with the fact that soccer is a global game. I doubt they would ever stop their youth academies because that would be a massive step backwards for any club. MLS and its clubs needs to continue to do a better job of nurturing an environment where academy kids want to stay. But there will always be academy kids who will want to go to greener pastures. RSL, LA, Seattle have all done a decent job at keeping their best players, but they have also had many leave as well. Having no youth system would be a massive step back for clubs and mls as a whole so I don't ever see them getting rid of it entirely. I see it as them just complaining (with good reason), but even the best teams in the world get their academy players poached without any compensation (ie. barcelona).

youth players won't get mins if the manager thinks the kids he's getting is not good enough. no first team mins, no development. it's hard enough to break into first team even if you're talented. let's see 2nd rated kids trying to break in. if teams keep losing all their youth prospects, they'll just go sign foreign players. which doesn't do much for national teams.

http://www.empireofsoccer.com/complexities-development-klinsmannmls-30171/

interesting article on challenges of youth academies

evermorian
11-15-2014, 06:45 PM
youth players won't get mins if the manager thinks the kids he's getting is not good enough. no first team mins, no development. it's hard enough to break into first team even if you're talented. let's see 2nd rated kids trying to break in. if teams keep losing all their youth prospects, they'll just go sign foreign players. which doesn't do much for national teams.

http://www.empireofsoccer.com/complexities-development-klinsmannmls-30171/

interesting article on challenges of youth academies

I see your point. That is an interesting article, which I think points to the issues of youth academy players going to Europe as being more to do with USSF not conforming to fifa standards, such as clubs getting a percentage of any future sale of an academy player. Furthermore, US labor laws seem to be cited as another deterrent as clubs are not allowed to sign players at a young age?

My personal opinion is that Klinsmann is being unfairly demonized in this saga. Yes he may be encouraging some youth players to head to Europe, but I don't see anything wrong with that. The environment for youth players is not as high in north america as it is in Europe. Higher calibre training playing against higher calibre opponents. To change this, MLS needs to look at itself. Klinsmann is not the reason that this is happening. MLS pays shitty minimum wage salaries to those players who earn it, and that will hopefully change with the next cba. Changes need to be made structurally within mls and the ussf (i.e. let teams make some profit off of homegrown players who decide to leave. I think the creation of usl pro teams is starting to change the culture in mls..ie (it provides a clearer path to the first team for academy players.

Klinsmann has every right to urge american players to play in the highest calibre environment, and right now its not mls. If Garber and the clubs want to change the influx of homegrown talent heading to Europe, than mls and the ussf need to start changing that.

denime
11-15-2014, 06:56 PM
http://www.espnfc.com/team/united-states/660/blog/post/2145959/jurgen-klinsmann-firm-on-young-player-advice-as-mls-frustration-grows

it seems Garber is right about Klinsmann sabotaging MLS


Klinsmann is not sabotaging MLS.

It's normal for basketball player to want to play in NBA,and by doing that he is developing and helping his own Nat.team ,same can be said for NHL,and that's exactly what Klinsi is asking future US nat. players to do,go oversees and develop.


MLS SUCKS and Klinsmann is full aware of it,Garber is just protecting his product,and he does not give a shit about USMNT,and that's a FACT.

Yohan
11-15-2014, 07:23 PM
I see your point. That is an interesting article, which I think points to the issues of youth academy players going to Europe as being more to do with USSF not conforming to fifa standards, such as clubs getting a percentage of any future sale of an academy player. Furthermore, US labor laws seem to be cited as another deterrent as clubs are not allowed to sign players at a young age?

My personal opinion is that Klinsmann is being unfairly demonized in this saga. Yes he may be encouraging some youth players to head to Europe, but I don't see anything wrong with that. The environment for youth players is not as high in north america as it is in Europe. Higher calibre training playing against higher calibre opponents. To change this, MLS needs to look at itself. Klinsmann is not the reason that this is happening. MLS pays shitty minimum wage salaries to those players who earn it, and that will hopefully change with the next cba. Changes need to be made structurally within mls and the ussf (i.e. let teams make some profit off of homegrown players who decide to leave. I think the creation of usl pro teams is starting to change the culture in mls..ie (it provides a clearer path to the first team for academy players.

Klinsmann has every right to urge american players to play in the highest calibre environment, and right now its not mls. If Garber and the clubs want to change the influx of homegrown talent heading to Europe, than mls and the ussf need to start changing that.

I'm going to quote what I wrote at Voyageurs forum

If Klinsmann was just the head coach and not the Technical Director also, I can understand his comments. He wants the best team in the short term.

But he is the Technical Director of USA. It's his job to set US up for success in the long term and that means assisting in the growth of US domestic league. Telling kids to go to Europe may benefit Klinsmann in the short term (WC 2018 and may be 2022), but it hurts for long term development of MLS and USMNT for 2026 or 2030. You tell kids MLS isn't good enough (not that I'm disagreeing with this) and the talented kids that are need to make MLS grow will go somewhere else. That hurts US program.

If MLS teams cannot benefit from investing in the youth, they'll just shut off the youth program. Why invest in something you can't benefit from? For a long time, MLS relied on NCAA to develop youth, and the product wasn't good enough.
Now that MLS has taken youth program seriously and put in some money into it, MLS is starting to see some benefits. But because youth players can sign elsewhere without compensation, some talented kids have left MLS teams without compensation. Some teams face vultures circling around their youth academies. LA for example have Liga MX scouts going after their kids, and that's starting to become a serious issue.

So, this is a short term vs long term thing. I do not want MLS to shut down its youth program because they decide it's not worth the cost.

To add,

It is one of mandates of MLS to assist in development of USMNT players. MLS can't do that when it keeps losing its best youth players. Better domestic league is better for national team development in long term. It is also easier to break into MLS than at top tier Euro teams. Just how good is sitting on bench, heck not even make the sub bench of teams?

denime
11-15-2014, 07:30 PM
Major League Soccer's Biggest Problem (http://www.businessinsider.com/major-league-soccer-salaries-2014-11)







Major League Soccer continues to do very well among local fans with strong attendance numbers, and has even dished out some big contracts to a few star players. But the overall quality of play still lags behind other leagues and that has a lot to do with how much the league pays its players.
While the league will occasionally hand out a big contract, such as the recently signed $7.2 million per year deal for former FIFA World Player of the Year Kaká (http://www.businessinsider.com/kaka-highest-paid-players-mls-major-league-soccer-2014-9), those deals are rare.
Nearly one-third of the league's total payroll goes to seven players (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/sports/soccer/many-in-mls-playing-largely-for-love-of-the-game-.html?_r=0), and only 15 of the 572 players in the league make $1 million or more while many make under $50,000.
As a result, the average salary in MLS is just $213,000 per year according to SportingIntelligence.com (https://twitter.com/sportingintel/status/533223433237442560). That ranks just 21st among the world's top football leagues and is a big reason many experts won't rank MLS among the top ten leagues in the world (http://insider.espn.go.com/sports/soccer/story/_/id/11317003/soccer-how-does-major-league-soccer-stack-world-top-leagues).


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/major-league-soccer-salaries-2014-11#ixzz3JBeM0iFw

http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/5466251a6bb3f7a2432a9aec-800-600/01-646.png

evermorian
11-15-2014, 08:02 PM
I'm going to quote what I wrote at Voyageurs forum

To add,

It is one of mandates of MLS to assist in development of USMNT players. MLS can't do that when it keeps losing its best youth players. Better domestic league is better for national team development in long term. It is also easier to break into MLS than at top tier Euro teams. Just how good is sitting on bench, heck not even make the sub bench of teams?

I do concede that Klinsmann does have a role to play in helping develop the league, but at the end of the day he is most concerned with developing the best possible players. It is up to MLS and its club to convince its academy kids to play. My argument is that they have a long way to go in doing that. MLS is an anomaly in world soccer in that they have a single structure and is salary capped. This i think infringes on their ability to keep their top talent. Their wage structure is inferior to a lot of leagues around the world and there is a lot to be desired in the way they treat players (i.e. a lack of free agency). As someone else has pointed out, Klinsmann is more concerned about the player, and Garber about the league. Klinsmann I don't think can honestly tell a player that, yes your best choice is to stay in mls. The salary structure, breadth of opportunity, and competitive playing environment is still much, much greater in europe than in mls.

I'm just saying its really up to mls to improve all of this, not Klinsmann. As mls starts to develop top notch players, there will inevitably be more scouts from foreign teams watching. This isn't Klinsmanns fault but just the nature of a globalized game, and I think some mls owners haven't adjusted to the fact that it occurs all the time, teams not getting compensated. I think this next cba cycle will see more top players staying in mls as chances for minutes in a real competitive environment improve. Anyways, the article that started this debate was about academy kids getting poached without the team getting compensated, and it seemed to overtly pin the blame on Klinsmann. Academy kids will still playing in the academies whether they are in mls or in europe. I would argue that the top academies in Europe offer a better playing environment than academies in mls.

Cashcleaner
11-15-2014, 09:09 PM
Major League Soccer's Biggest Problem (http://www.businessinsider.com/major-league-soccer-salaries-2014-11)







Major League Soccer continues to do very well among local fans with strong attendance numbers, and has even dished out some big contracts to a few star players. But the overall quality of play still lags behind other leagues and that has a lot to do with how much the league pays its players.
While the league will occasionally hand out a big contract, such as the recently signed $7.2 million per year deal for former FIFA World Player of the Year Kaká (http://www.businessinsider.com/kaka-highest-paid-players-mls-major-league-soccer-2014-9), those deals are rare.
Nearly one-third of the league's total payroll goes to seven players (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/sports/soccer/many-in-mls-playing-largely-for-love-of-the-game-.html?_r=0), and only 15 of the 572 players in the league make $1 million or more while many make under $50,000.
As a result, the average salary in MLS is just $213,000 per year according to SportingIntelligence.com (https://twitter.com/sportingintel/status/533223433237442560). That ranks just 21st among the world's top football leagues and is a big reason many experts won't rank MLS among the top ten leagues in the world (http://insider.espn.go.com/sports/soccer/story/_/id/11317003/soccer-how-does-major-league-soccer-stack-world-top-leagues).


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/major-league-soccer-salaries-2014-11#ixzz3JBeM0iFw

http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/5466251a6bb3f7a2432a9aec-800-600/01-646.png
Oh man, denime. Thanks for posting this! Honestly, I don't think I even want MLS to be in a position where the average salary of 3 million+ is the norm, but it really highlights how little compensation there is for the majority of MLS players compared to other leagues in the world. Its simple economics really - you're going to attract better talent when you start offering better pay.

Yohan
11-16-2014, 12:07 AM
I do concede that Klinsmann does have a role to play in helping develop the league, but at the end of the day he is most concerned with developing the best possible players. It is up to MLS and its club to convince its academy kids to play. My argument is that they have a long way to go in doing that. MLS is an anomaly in world soccer in that they have a single structure and is salary capped. This i think infringes on their ability to keep their top talent. Their wage structure is inferior to a lot of leagues around the world and there is a lot to be desired in the way they treat players (i.e. a lack of free agency). As someone else has pointed out, Klinsmann is more concerned about the player, and Garber about the league. Klinsmann I don't think can honestly tell a player that, yes your best choice is to stay in mls. The salary structure, breadth of opportunity, and competitive playing environment is still much, much greater in europe than in mls.

I'm just saying its really up to mls to improve all of this, not Klinsmann. As mls starts to develop top notch players, there will inevitably be more scouts from foreign teams watching. This isn't Klinsmanns fault but just the nature of a globalized game, and I think some mls owners haven't adjusted to the fact that it occurs all the time, teams not getting compensated. I think this next cba cycle will see more top players staying in mls as chances for minutes in a real competitive environment improve. Anyways, the article that started this debate was about academy kids getting poached without the team getting compensated, and it seemed to overtly pin the blame on Klinsmann. Academy kids will still playing in the academies whether they are in mls or in europe. I would argue that the top academies in Europe offer a better playing environment than academies in mls.Actually, FIFA statutes dictate teams involved in youth development of a player are suppose to get compensated IIRC. It doesn't happen in US for some reason, to my knowledge, clash with US labour laws.

Your argument frams MLS and USA in world context, but MLS and USA are an unique beast. In most cases, US players cannot sign for European (or foreign) clubs until age of 18 unless they hold EU passport (or whatever passport that allows to be signed at that nation) or parents move for non footballing reasons. So, this means, these kids are stuck in US until 18, meaning MLS club has invested quite a few years in this kid.

US labour laws do not prevent MLS clubs from signing kids under 18, however, most kids hold off signing a pro contract because of NCAA, which is an unique US phenomenon. Kids know that signing a pro contract pisses away their NCAA eligibility, and considering the cost of college, most kids cannot afford to go to college unless on a scholarship, because most first contracts aren't going to pay much. I suppose MLS can offer to fund college tuition for kids that sign pro contracts, but at 50k a year tuition (ish?), MLS doesn't have that kind of money. (few select kids get offered Generation Adidas contracts, which is suppose to offset kids losing out on NCAA eligibility)
For a lot of kids, NCAA offers a second chance at pro soccer career (and college education), and they would not risk pissing that away, unless they have some sort of guarantee to make it in the pros. Which MLS teams won't guarantee for most. And a lot of kids are late bloomers, better served playing in NCAA until they mature. So owners want to put youth players under contract. But it can't in most cases.

So, yes. Single entity and tight salary cap makes it hard for MLS to offer lucrative contracts to kids. And here's the Catch 22. MLS won't get the money it needs to offer better contracts to players until it can improve its quality. It won't improve its quality until it can hold on to its best players, including the best youth talents. Now you can point to SUM and new TV contracts and the rest of new revenue sources MLS has, (and don't put expansion fees into this. That's not a reliable revenue source) but there isn't enough money going around to raise the cap significantly. And due to international spot restrictions, raising the cap significantly means the domestic players get more money while still having same level of talent. That's not a wise investment of money. MLS has done what a lot of leagues failed to do. Provide a competitive league without stupid hyper inflation of wages that plagues a lot of leagues right now. Why do you think UEFA is insisting on Financial Fair Play rules? It's to stop clubs from spending money beyond their means.

I perfectly understand Klinsmann's POV, and he wants to win now if he doesn't want to get fired. But that's still him not doing the other part of his job, which is to help MLS grow as a league, so that US players can benefit from a strong domestic US league. And that'll be the long term success which defines his job as Technical Director.

So, of course MLS is going to get pissed at Klinsmann. If you aren't doing your best to protect your assets, especially at such vulnerable youth program like MLS has, then you aren't doing your job. Foreign clubs aren't stupid. Of course they are telling kids not to sign a pro contract, offering them possibility of joining foreign clubs at 18, so that foreign clubs can poach kids for free transfer. If you're MLS, would you not do your best to protect your assets? Doing things the way that the rest of the world does it, just because that's the way things have been done when it's not in your best interest is dumb. You do your best to change the rules to your benefit. MLS is projected to spend something like 30 mil on youth programs per year. That's a lot of money to be spend just to give away your talents for free and not reap any benefits. To put into another context, MLS salary cap is 3.1 mil per team. Add roster spots 21-30, plus allocation money and you get around 3.6-4 mil per team. If 30 mil figure is true (and we only have Garber's word on this), each MLS team spends about 1.5 mil on youth development. So in comparison, on a player spending of 3.6-4 mil currently, 1.5 mil on youth development is about 5.1-5.5 mil on total player spending. Youth development would represent about 27-30% of total player spending. Only a fool would invest so much money for so little gain. 30 mil/yr is up from 20 mil/yr reported from 2012. And this money doesn't include cost of operating an USL team, which will serve mostly for youth development.

I think MLS and MLS clubs understand that eventually, they can't hold back players from signing somewhere else. Heck, they agree that European academies are probably better than most MLS academies. However, they want to be compensated for their investment, which is reasonable.

PopePouri
11-16-2014, 12:38 AM
Major League Soccer's Biggest Problem (http://www.businessinsider.com/major-league-soccer-salaries-2014-11)

t
It's an issue but it's a symptom of larger problems like infrastructure and small markets. NE and DC don't have proper training grounds or soccer specific stadia. Once expansion has stopped and various MLS 1.0 clubs have shuffled around can we some major changes to the cap.

evermorian
11-16-2014, 01:43 AM
I think MLS and MLS clubs understand that eventually, they can't hold back players from signing somewhere else. Heck, they agree that European academies are probably better than most MLS academies. However, they want to be compensated for their investment, which is reasonable.

I appreciate your post. I definitely understand the mls youth system and its complexities better. Thanks :).

I agree that mls teams should be compensated for their investment. What I take issue with, however, is blaming Klinsmann for this problem. I think its an easy scapegoat. I do recognize his role as technical director and I think he has done more than any previous american coach in terms of bringing the american youth system up to speed to the modern game. By suggesting to some academy players that they may have a greater opportunity at a larger european club is only telling the truth. The reason that teams weren't compensated is in no way a fault of Klinsmanns but rather the mls. Most teams in Europe and around the world have contracts in place with their youth players where if they do decide to leave the club for greener pasture they are at least compensated.

I can see why they blamed Klinsmann publicly, in part to save face for their league. But by doing so they hid from view the realities, that it was mls and the constraints at which they operate in that is causing this, at least in part. Until the mls addresses this, academy kids will continue to move to other clubs for free.

And its only going to get more intense as major European clubs are opening up their own academies within the US. MLS clubs need to somehow find a way to sign their best academy kids to contracts so that if they do decide to go, they get payed for it. I believe that having USL pro teams operated by mls clubs will go a long way to helping that as they will at least be able to sign their best academy standouts to contracts, so that if they do decide to leave the team will be compensated.

ensco
11-16-2014, 07:46 AM
I don't see Klinsmann's role as Technical Director necessarily requiring him to look out for MLS.

I think the number of 18 year olds that are good enough, and are willing to go, to Utrecht or wherever, is tiny, and you can't build a system around it.

The real stud kids are known years earlier, and it's the identification and development of those kids Klinsmann might want to think about, as Technical Director.

Pookie
11-16-2014, 08:57 AM
I find that the financial argument that this is predicated on to be a little disingenuous.

From the article:

"MLS executive vice president Todd Durbin declined to be drawn into the discussion when asked specifically about Klinsmann's approach, other than to reiterate the extent of the league's commitment to youth development. Collectively, MLS clubs are spending in the range of $20-25 million annually on their academies.

"That investment only makes sense if we're able to sign the players," said Durbin. "Obviously U.S. Soccer and MLS understand the importance of youth development both with regard to the success of the league and the national team. It's important that we're aligned on this."

While that may be true in terms of expenditure, it doesn't mention the expanded MLS-Adidas partnership that is worth $200M (or $25M annually) to MLS. "Youth Expansion" was a key driver in terms of inking the deal.

Initial B
11-16-2014, 11:22 PM
That salary metric is very telling. Just crunching some numbers and assuming a direct relation between average player wage and average team combined salary, the rumored $4 million cap would raise MLS to above the Austrian Bundesliga. Raising the cap to $5 million would rank MLS between Argentina and China. Raising the Cap to $7.5 million would then put MLS in the top 10 leagues by placing it between Liga MX and the Turkish League - that's the level that MLS should be reaching by the start of next CBA. The Cap should be at least $4.5 million for 2015 with a 10% increase per year, which would place it at over $6.5 million by 2019. At that point, quality in the youth system should have caught up with the rest of the world and the North American players will be worth that much for at least a $100K rookie starting salary.

ensco
11-17-2014, 09:17 AM
^There is no chance any of that is happening.

The low cap may make MLS a crappy league with an inability to develop players, but the owners will take a strike of any length to fundamentally preserve it. MLS has a sustainability other soccer leagues can only dream about, and they're not interested in wrecking it because other leagues pay unsustainable salaries.

I think a lot of the owners were grumpy about what TFC did last offseason, and they will put in something to stop someone from committing $90M to 2 players like that.

I don't even participate in any of the offseason threads, because I am so certain we will lose at last half the 2015 season to a strike (I think that BMO expansion timeline is kind of confirmation of that, btw - they're not too worried about where games in April and May will be played)

I just hope the players get a $100K minimum, I am so sick of seeing guys make $40K. I feel like an enabler paying for that.

Initial B
11-17-2014, 01:09 PM
Ensco, with the increase in TV revenues, $4.5 Million is sustainable now and a 5% increase per year is in line with what they have done in previous CBAs. I have no doubt that in 2020 the league will have at least a $7 million cap, which would place it in the top 10 leagues salary-wise.

Pookie
11-17-2014, 04:10 PM
Ensco, with the increase in TV revenues, $4.5 Million is sustainable now and a 5% increase per year is in line with what they have done in previous CBAs. I have no doubt that in 2020 the league will have at least a $7 million cap, which would place it in the top 10 leagues salary-wise.


Not sure about the "sustainability" of that.

MLS' TV deal is about $90M per year which was said to have tripled the previous deal of $30M per year. Net annual increase = $60M

To get to a $7M "budget" per team, you are talking about a net increase of about $4M per team from its current number. Since all salaries are paid out by the league, this budget increase would equate to 20 (teams) x 4M = $80M per season.

No way it happens.

Initial B
11-17-2014, 05:02 PM
I'm assuming that they'll be negotiating a new TV deal for 2020. Isn't the current new deal for 5 years and ending in 2019? The length of the CBA and TV contracts seem to go hand-in-hand. And with expansion by 2020 they'll be at 24 teams which would be $96M/yr total.

If the new deal is for longer than that, then I'm assuming that MLS will set the increase where the last year of the CBA will just be under the threshold of unsustainability. They have to walk a fine line to increase the quality/watchability to increase TV rating numbers and casual fan interest and the only way to do that is to spend money.

denime
11-18-2014, 06:44 AM
U.S. Considering Outside Help to Close Development Gap (http://hsrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=A2KLtczIMGtUb60AK_ibvZx4;_ylu=X3oDMTNtOXR1M2V iBGJwb3MDMQRjY29kZQNnYQRjcG9zAzMEY3QDMQRnAzJjMmU3Y jRjLTIyYTAtM2NiMi1iNTUyLTI5Yzk1YmY2YzM2NwRpbnRsA3V zBHBrZ3QDNARwb3MDMQRzZWMDdGQtc3RybQRzbGsDdGl0bGUEd GVzdAM5MDE-/RV=1/RE=1417520584/RH=aHNyZC55YWhvby5jb20-/RO=2/RU=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5ueXRpbWVzLmNvbS8yMDE0LzExLzE4L3N wb3J0cy9zb2NjZXIvdXMtc29jY2VyLXBsYW5zLXJldmlldy1vZ i15b3V0aC1wcm9ncmFtcy10by10cnktdG8tY2xvc2UtZ2FwLXd pdGgtZXVyb3BlLmh0bWw_X3I9MA--/RS=%5EADARbKrx2ZdRXoqFNXNvvEIQrRwZi4-)