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jloome
10-14-2014, 07:42 PM
For all those clamoring to get someone experienced, I would point out that the most successful coaches in MLS outside of Schmidt and Arena are ALL former MLS players, and most are recently retired.

It's not just Kreis:
Petke in New York; Berhalter in Columbus; Carl Robinson in Vancouver; Jay Heaps in New England.

THese are just the ones that are winning; in fact, most of the coaches in the league are former MLS players. Kinnear, Porter, Watson, Klopas, Clavijo. The lot.

Of the ones we've had we've only had three with significant MLS playing experience: Mo (whose history should've been a big flare), Preki ( who might have done well eventually; he just won the USL title with Sacramento), and Nelsen who had no experience at all.

I realize it's a risk to go with Vanney; but I also realize that the constant cycle of trying new approaches leads to zero team cohesion in a league that, due to talent paucity, requires it.

Thoughts?

ensco
10-14-2014, 07:52 PM
My thought is that we are all on the voyage of the damned, and we could hire Bill Shankly reincarnated and it wouldn't matter.

adam1001
10-14-2014, 07:52 PM
For all those clamoring to get someone experienced, I would point out that the most successful coaches in MLS outside of Schmidt and Arena are ALL former MLS players, and most are recently retired.

It's not just Kreis:
Petke in New York; Berhalter in Columbus; Carl Robinson in Vancouver; Jay Heaps in New England.

THese are just the ones that are winning; in fact, most of the coaches in the league are former MLS players. Kinnear, Porter, Watson, Klopas, Clavijo. The lot.

Of the ones we've had we've only had three with significant MLS playing experience: Mo (whose history should've been a big flare), Preki ( who might have done well eventually; he just won the USL title with Sacramento), and Nelsen who had no experience at all.

I realize it's a risk to go with Vanney; but I also realize that the constant cycle of trying new approaches leads to zero team cohesion in a league that, due to talent paucity, requires it.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure that Vanney will succeed here. We went from having a coach with zero actual coaching experience, to another coach with zero actual coaching experience. With Bez somewhat guaranteeing Vanney the job for next year, I fear that next season will end much like this one did.

Shakes McQueen
10-14-2014, 08:01 PM
My thought is that we are all on the voyage of the damned.

I don't know why, but this got a huge belly laugh from me.

I think it was jloome's analysis, followed by the hilariously worded brick wall of reality, haha.

Shakes McQueen
10-14-2014, 08:03 PM
As for the actual subject - I'm not sold on Vanney going forward yet, but I'm also not... un-sold. We could probably do worse than to give him a chance going in to next season.

Ultra & Proud
10-14-2014, 08:10 PM
As for the actual subject - I'm not sold on Vanney going forward yet, but I'm also not... un-sold. We could probably do worse than to give him a chance going in to next season.
I agree with the sold vs unsold thought but maybe the worse thing we could do is give him a chance. If he falters and gets sacked by June/July then we will be back at 2012 rock bottom levels in the locker room and in the stands. What we need now is no risk and to pay whatever it takes to get a manager to get us off this voyage to nowhere.

prizby
10-14-2014, 08:17 PM
As for the actual subject - I'm not sold on Vanney going forward yet, but I'm also not... un-sold. We could probably do worse than to give him a chance going in to next season.

here's what sold me

When Nelsen was fired, there were 6 teams below TFC...NYRB, Columbus, and the 4 teams that are still below us now. In 10 games against those 6 teams below us up to the point when Nelsen was fired, TFC had 6 wins and 4 draws (good for 22 out of 30 points). In comes Vanney and we have played 5 more games against teams that were below us and we have 4 losses and 1 draw for 1 point out of 15. That alone speaks loudly to me

ensco
10-14-2014, 08:36 PM
jloome is totally right of course. For most teams.

But us, we're special, as always, the rules don't apply.

Nelsen is no idiot, he would never have done what he did without very significant support. I can't help but think that we have a factionalized room, and that Vanney cannot win over at least half the room.

jloome
10-14-2014, 08:54 PM
jloome is totally right of course. For most teams.

But us, we're special, as always, the rules don't apply.

Nelsen is no idiot, he would never have done what he did without very significant support. I can't help but think that we have a factionalized room, and that Vanney cannot win over at least half the room.

This has happened so many times I fear you're right; in a number of other manager examples here we had rumors of rifts in the locker room.

Having said that, I just want to see us go with the conventional wisdom for once. I don't really care if that means giving an existing coach ludicrous money to come here or keeping Vanney; but I see more from him that his record would indicate.

The fact is that we were so tactically deficient on the offensive end under Nelsen that any attempt by Vanney to introduce new, quicker buildup and movement is going to be difficult; we literally have a team learning new tactics late in the season, on the promise from Bez he can keep going next year.

I think Bezbatchenko is right down the line on this stuff; I don't think he has the personal presence to get by issues like the Defoe situation on personality alone; but I think he's right about the direction to take management, which is to finally stop trying to reinvent the fucking wheel and do what is successful elsewhere in the league.

To top it off, we're really only about four starters away from being a contender. Solve Defoe in the offseason, sign a handful of new blood and let's get back at it. Enough with the desire for instant fixes.

Yohan
10-14-2014, 08:58 PM
Vanney reeks of charisma and authority of a kindergarten teacher. At least Nelsen could control the locker room with force of his personality (and resume) but Vanney? He talks good tactician, but sounds like a youth team coach which he really should get more experience doing.

Shakes McQueen
10-14-2014, 09:01 PM
I'm wondering more if the guys in the room aren't happy about Defoe being back in the lineup, period. Bradley said some pointed things while Defoe was out, that made it sound like they all knew full well that he didn't want to be here any more, and that their feelings were more or less "don't let the door hit you on the way out".

OgtheDim
10-14-2014, 09:17 PM
People keep talking about bringing in an experienced MLS manager but the only ones that would be worth bringing in don't really need this sort of headache (Shmid & Arena).

So, what's the choice?


Lets face it, we are not exactly a shining beacon of possibility and stability, are we.

************

I'm not sold on Vanney's maturity. He said some stuff about Henry before Saturday which was not helpful. He talks a good game. And, the tactical mess Nelsen left the team with is not going to get fixed this season.

That having been said, this team is a lot better then the one we had a season ago. Needs a formation change, which means jettisoning Defoe but he's a distraction now. Needs about 4 other pieces to succeed. Which is less then the other teams not making the playoffs.

My concern with a new GM is somebody blowing up the team - that's not needed. A new coach - would be good but I don't think we can get a decent one who wants to come here. (And, no, Bradley's Dad is not a good choice, for a number of reasons).

ag futbol
10-14-2014, 10:45 PM
Thoughts?
The league pushes clubs into hiring inexperienced candidates or the usual casting call of North American Coaching lifers.

Not to dismiss some that have done a good job, but when the USL / NASL exist and a huge pool of NCAA coaches, why are they always tapping green candidates with very little experience. My conclusion is because they are cheap.

Ivy
10-14-2014, 10:52 PM
Vanney reeks of charisma and authority of a kindergarten teacher. At least Nelsen could control the locker room with force of his personality (and resume) but Vanney? He talks good tactician, but sounds like a youth team coach which he really should get more experience doing.
I heard quite the opposite, actually.

ag futbol
10-14-2014, 10:58 PM
My concern with a new GM is somebody blowing up the team - that's not needed. A new coach - would be good but I don't think we can get a decent one who wants to come here. (And, no, Bradley's Dad is not a good choice, for a number of reasons).
I would bet solid money on this team making heavy adjustments in the offseason. What Vanney and Bez talk about valuing and what a lot of these players provide is apples and oranges. They are Nelsen's players, not the GM's or the coach's. Hence the motivational problem, these guys know the guy who brought them in is gone and they are likely not far behind. MLS teams don't play well when guys are unstable; getting paid so-so money on non-guaranteed contracts with a decreasing certainty over your future will makes for minds that are elsewhere.

Look at the changes in the players used as well. Lovitz and Bekker will not start next year. The only reason they start now is because they have some qualities Vanney likes that the prior starters under Nelsen did not have.


I heard quite the opposite, actually.
You mean the guy who mumbles and looks at his feet when he talks didn't command authority in the dressing room? shocker.

MartinUtd
10-14-2014, 11:12 PM
My thought is that we are all on the voyage of the damned, and we could hire Bill Shankly reincarnated and it wouldn't matter.

I'd love to make this a banner.

notthesun
10-14-2014, 11:18 PM
How long is the list of former MLS players or just plain inexperienced coaches that have failed vs. the one for successes?

ManUtd4ever
10-14-2014, 11:30 PM
My thought is that we are all on the voyage of the damned, and we could hire Bill Shankly reincarnated and it wouldn't matter.

This. We must all be repenting for misdeeds in past lives.

Although I do agree with jloome regarding the need for coaching stability and the need to bolster the existing nucleus of the roster in the off season.

Red CB Toronto
10-14-2014, 11:39 PM
Maybe offer Landon the job.

Initial B
10-15-2014, 12:37 AM
We gave Nelsen 3 transfer periods to get it right, I don't see how we can give Vanney any less.

jloome
10-15-2014, 12:25 PM
We gave Nelsen 3 transfer periods to get it right, I don't see how we can give Vanney any less.

Even if we assume Defoe goes in January, our roster is much better of than before last season. We should only be a few pieces away. I just suspect that if we bring in someone from elsewhere, his first stamp on the team will be to shape the people around him, and that could mean a lot more upheaval to the roster. That's one of the biggest issues that has faced this team, building some cohesion.

Cashcleaner
10-15-2014, 05:18 PM
Yeah, jloome is right in that there is an inherent risk attached to Vanney (for obvious reasons), but he just might end up being the right sort of person going into the next phase of league operations. If he really does have Bez's full support (as it's been reported several times now), then we gotta think about the team's long-term strategy and his part in it. I don't think either Vanney or Bez are leaving anytime soon - and that could be a very good thing when you consider the sort of flux the league is going through right now with regards to expansion, talent levels, interest from players outside North America, etc.

anto7
10-15-2014, 06:36 PM
Yeah, jloome is right in that there is an inherent risk attached to Vanney (for obvious reasons), but he just might end up being the right sort of person going into the next phase of league operations. If he really does have Bez's full support (as it's been reported several times now), then we gotta think about the team's long-term strategy and his part in it. I don't think either Vanney or Bez are leaving anytime soon - and that could be a very good thing when you consider the sort of flux the league is going through right now with regards to expansion, talent levels, interest from players outside North America, etc.

Just finished listening to Vanney's latest interview on the TFC website. It may be all just his sales pitch to keep his job but damn he does sell himself well and I can't help but think we should give him a chance.

Richard
10-15-2014, 06:48 PM
So Nick Dasovic is available. Looking at the two careers I would be inclined to think Nick is more of an MLS 2.0 type guy, he knows the entire soccer system from the academy to senior level. He does have past history with TFC, but it shouldn't not make him a candidate.

I think if TFC was once again going for young guy it should be him.

TFC07
10-15-2014, 07:28 PM
So Nick Dasovic is available. Looking at the two careers I would be inclined to think Nick is more of an MLS 2.0 type guy, he knows the entire soccer system from the academy to senior level. He does have past history with TFC, but it shouldn't not make him a candidate.

I think if TFC was once again going for young guy it should be him.

If we're going for a young guy, then we might as well hire Danny Dichio as our head coach.

Danny Dichio is a fan fav who loves the city and has a high football IQ. Not only that, but he has been with club since first year.

OgtheDim
10-15-2014, 07:47 PM
Dichio needs about 7 years more, including a couple as an assistant. To do well in this league, he also could do with a few years being an assistant to a GM. He'll be our manager some day, and hopefully a very good one, as his mind is excellent by all accounts and he's humble enough to know he needs to learn.

Just not yet.

Oldtimer
10-15-2014, 07:53 PM
So Nick Dasovic is available. Looking at the two careers I would be inclined to think Nick is more of an MLS 2.0 type guy, he knows the entire soccer system from the academy to senior level. He does have past history with TFC, but it shouldn't not make him a candidate.

I think if TFC was once again going for young guy it should be him.

Daso's decent, but I think that Vanney has more tactical knowledge. Daso is strong in knowing Canadian players, however, so that's a plus for him.

[NBF]
10-15-2014, 07:55 PM
Dichio needs about 7 years more, including a couple as an assistant. To do well in this league, he also could do with a few years being an assistant to a GM. He'll be our manager some day, and hopefully a very good one, as his mind is excellent by all accounts and he's humble enough to know he needs to learn.

Just not yet.


Nah, I think he's laughing from his junior academy office and saying "another one bites the dust" each time a head coach is hired then fired.:drinking:

ensco
10-15-2014, 07:56 PM
Dichio needs about 7 years more, including a couple as an assistant. To do well in this league, he also could do with a few years being an assistant to a GM. He'll be our manager some day, and hopefully a very good one, as his mind is excellent by all accounts and he's humble enough to know he needs to learn.

Just not yet.

He has talked about this, he will never do it, except maybe as a caretaker I suppose.

He has stepped back and given that dream up, because he cares about other things more. He went from running the Academy to coaching the 12 year olds because he likes teaching younger kids, and doesn't want the lifestyle of a serious manager for his own family. Plus there's the TV gig, and the odd PR thing. He loves Toronto, and he has set up his life so that he maximizes the odds that he will be here forever.

The guy, just like you'd expect, is the only guy around TFC who has a plan and knows how to get there from here.

You have to respect him all the more because he is capable of making these choices.

Initial B
10-15-2014, 09:01 PM
Are there any coaches in NASL that might be ready for an upgrade to MLS?

Kayaker
10-15-2014, 09:39 PM
I've been looking at the list of coaches in MLS since 2007. I think we need to start setting realistic expectations about what can work in MLS and how long it will take. I'm glad we gave Nelson as long as he had, and I'm still neutral as to getting rid of him was the right thing to do or not. I've got a slightly good feeling about Vanney as his tactics seem to be better (and should improve with experience).

First off, there are only 3 big league MLS coaches/managers: Arean, Schmid, and Bradley. I can't see the first two leaving their positions and the latter will try to stay in Europe.

Here's what I've gathered about MLS coaches since 2007. I looked at any coach in place for the 07 season and any non-interim hire.

- total coaches: 57
- team with the most? Don't guess, it's us: 7 (remember non-interim), next is Chivas with 6.
- only teams with 1? Houston (until today of course) and Seattle (only around since 09)
- coaches hired with no head coaching experience at a professional level - 11 (two of those are different - Hyndman and Porter were established college coaches, but still had no professional experience when hired)
- coaches hired with assistant coaching experience - 18
- coaches with no MLS coaching experience - 12
- coaches with MLS experience - 16

Of the current coaches (let's pretend that Watson in SJ still has a job) only 4 have *not* played in MLS: Cabrera, Arena, Porter (he had a couple of games, but nothing of consequence), Schmid.

So, the pool of coaching talent is fairly small. The options are:
- convince Bob Bradley to come.... not going to happen
- convince a sitting coach to come to Toronto (I can't see it happening)
- pick up one of the coaches about to be fired at the end of season
- hire one of the few experienced MLS coaches with out an MLS coaching job (Preki, Nicol, Marsch, Rennie, Nowak, Hackworth, Carver, Mariner, Spencer)
- hire the most promising assistant MLS coach out there
- stick with Vanney

Of the current coaches that had experience at any professional level prior to their current job there are the ones that are not leaving (Berhalter, Kinnear, Pareja, Arena, Schmid) and the ones I don't think we want (Yallop, Klopas). Of the rest, unless you can pry Vermes or Robinson away from their clubs (not going to happen), you would have to look at the possible firings (from most likely to least likely: Watson, Petke, Curtin, Porter)

This off season is going to be extra busy, therefore I'm ok with Vanney. Next year may be very turbulent, new roster rules with the CBA, expansion (both the draft and how it plays throughout the season), conference re-alignment, not playing a home game until May.

jloome
10-15-2014, 10:15 PM
I've been looking at the list of coaches in MLS since 2007. I think we need to start setting realistic expectations about what can work in MLS and how long it will take. I'm glad we gave Nelson as long as he had, and I'm still neutral as to getting rid of him was the right thing to do or not. I've got a slightly good feeling about Vanney as his tactics seem to be better (and should improve with experience).

First off, there are only 3 big league MLS coaches/managers: Arean, Schmid, and Bradley. I can't see the first two leaving their positions and the latter will try to stay in Europe.

Here's what I've gathered about MLS coaches since 2007. I looked at any coach in place for the 07 season and any non-interim hire.

- total coaches: 57
- team with the most? Don't guess, it's us: 7 (remember non-interim), next is Chivas with 6.
- only teams with 1? Houston (until today of course) and Seattle (only around since 09)
- coaches hired with no head coaching experience at a professional level - 11 (two of those are different - Hyndman and Porter were established college coaches, but still had no professional experience when hired)
- coaches hired with assistant coaching experience - 18
- coaches with no MLS coaching experience - 12
- coaches with MLS experience - 16

Of the current coaches (let's pretend that Watson in SJ still has a job) only 4 have *not* played in MLS: Cabrera, Arena, Porter (he had a couple of games, but nothing of consequence), Schmid.

So, the pool of coaching talent is fairly small. The options are:
- convince Bob Bradley to come.... not going to happen
- convince a sitting coach to come to Toronto (I can't see it happening)
- pick up one of the coaches about to be fired at the end of season
- hire one of the few experienced MLS coaches with out an MLS coaching job (Preki, Nicol, Marsch, Rennie, Nowak, Hackworth, Carver, Mariner, Spencer)
- hire the most promising assistant MLS coach out there
- stick with Vanney

Of the current coaches that had experience at any professional level prior to their current job there are the ones that are not leaving (Berhalter, Kinnear, Pareja, Arena, Schmid) and the ones I don't think we want (Yallop, Klopas). Of the rest, unless you can pry Vermes or Robinson away from their clubs (not going to happen), you would have to look at the possible firings (from most likely to least likely: Watson, Petke, Curtin, Porter)

This off season is going to be extra busy, therefore I'm ok with Vanney. Next year may be very turbulent, new roster rules with the CBA, expansion (both the draft and how it plays throughout the season), conference re-alignment, not playing a home game until May.

Insightful. Combine it with some of the challenges that come from assembling a roster in North America and I think it's the wisest decision right now.

evermorian
10-16-2014, 01:47 AM
While there has been debate about why TFC has been such an incompetent organization year after year, whether it be from the coaches we hire or the continual dysfunctional front office (except for maybe this year?), there has been little emphasis on our academy and how it has not produced much quality except for hamilton and Henry. I see set ups like LA and Real Salt Lake, and more recently Seattle, who are starting to produce future mls stars. Considering that Toronto has such a vast area to get players from, how is it that our academy is (seemingly) so far behind the others? And if we were producing MLS talent from our academy then maybe we wouldn't be such a bad team? Thoughts?

MightyDM
10-16-2014, 01:51 AM
jloome is totally right of course. For most teams.

But us, we're special, as always, the rules don't apply.

Nelsen is no idiot, he would never have done what he did without very significant support. I can't help but think that we have a factionalized room, and that Vanney cannot win over at least half the room.
what are the fault lines?

MightyDM
10-16-2014, 01:52 AM
Vanney reeks of charisma and authority of a kindergarten teacher. At least Nelsen could control the locker room with force of his personality (and resume) but Vanney? He talks good tactician, but sounds like a youth team coach which he really should get more experience doing.

Good post

MightyDM
10-16-2014, 01:55 AM
Maybe offer Landon the job.

No. And No. That's when I cancel my tickets. And move to Vancouver.

MightyDM
10-16-2014, 01:58 AM
Just finished listening to Vanney's latest interview on the TFC website. It may be all just his sales pitch to keep his job but damn he does sell himself well and I can't help but think we should give him a chance.

Says all the right things. Then his team goes on the pitch and gives up the weakest goals in TFC history, again and again and again. And again. Sorry, decent guy, sounds good, but the evidence on the pitch is lose lose lose.

ryan
10-16-2014, 08:49 AM
Maybe offer Landon the job.

Oh lawd no. Why even? Just. STAHP.

Red CB Toronto
10-16-2014, 09:48 AM
Oh lawd no. Why even? Just. STAHP.

Pure joke, knowing the Reds, have no idea what direction they go if a change is made.

PopePouri
10-16-2014, 10:07 AM
Based on the last couple of posts and threads on this forum, thanks jloome for creating a thread that didn't make me want to kill myself.

We need an attacking mid DP. If we persist with the diamond, it's a necessity.

Brooker
10-16-2014, 10:13 AM
Tony Pulis would whip us into shape. We may never win anything but we'd make the playoffs every year. :)

Initial B
10-16-2014, 11:28 AM
Considering that Toronto has such a vast area to get players from, how is it that our academy is (seemingly) so far behind the others? And if we were producing MLS talent from our academy then maybe we wouldn't be such a bad team? Thoughts?
From what I understand, when TFC first came along, the general arrogance and incompetence of the Front Office alienated all the existing clubs. I think Vanney helped mend some of the fences when he joined, but there's still a lot of the top talent that does not play in TFC's academy, especially those kids associated with SAAC academies, where some have affiliations with European clubs and send their best kids there. At least TFC has been around long enough that some kids will have started with the TFC system right from the get-go. I think we'll start to see an up-tick in the quality of the academy kids in the next couple of years.

jloome
10-16-2014, 11:48 AM
Says all the right things. Then his team goes on the pitch and gives up the weakest goals in TFC history, again and again and again. And again. Sorry, decent guy, sounds good, but the evidence on the pitch is lose lose lose.

Given that they won two games under him, that's hyperbole. He was stuck with a team that was poorly coached and forced to changed tactics with ten games left in the season.

Nelsen's team was shambolic for the second half of this season.

molenshtain
10-16-2014, 12:20 PM
From what I understand, when TFC first came along, the general arrogance and incompetence of the Front Office alienated all the existing clubs. I think Vanney helped mend some of the fences when he joined, but there's still a lot of the top talent that does not play in TFC's academy, especially those kids associated with SAAC academies, where some have affiliations with European clubs and send their best kids there. At least TFC has been around long enough that some kids will have started with the TFC system right from the get-go. I think we'll start to see an up-tick in the quality of the academy kids in the next couple of years.

That's basically it. It's starting to change more and more though, their doing a much better job of engaging the city's best clubs and changing the minds of the most talented players to start their careers here rather than Europe. The U18 team now is much more representative of the city's finest that it was even 2-3 years ago.

Lumpy
10-16-2014, 12:37 PM
Vanney needed to be fired the day he was hired as I stated way back then. He has no experience and we shouldn't be made to wait until he does. His results to date have been poor. He lost both games against Philadelphia which effectively knocked us out of the playoffs. He coached us to one of our most embarrassing and humbling loses against New York. We have gotten worse results under him than the previous manager who was fired for lack of results. Let him gain valuable experience somewhere else so we don't have to suffer though his learning curve. Fire Vanney NOW.

Oldtimer
10-16-2014, 12:53 PM
He has no experience

He has experience at the academy level, which is a lot more than Nelsen had.

Bruce Arena had no first team experience either when he started in MLS. His experience was NCAA.

Lumpy
10-16-2014, 01:12 PM
He has experience at the academy level, which is a lot more than Nelsen had.

Bruce Arena had no first team experience either when he started in MLS. His experience was NCAA.

Arena coached 385 NCAA games. How many games has Vanney coached other than his coaching of kids? The answer is closer to zero than it is 385.

Canary10
10-16-2014, 01:43 PM
Vanney reeks of charisma and authority of a kindergarten teacher. At least Nelsen could control the locker room with force of his personality (and resume) but Vanney? He talks good tactician, but sounds like a youth team coach which he really should get more experience doing.

I think this is right. Watching him on the sideline during games, and in interviews, he really seems to be a shrinking violet.

Areathrasher
10-16-2014, 02:10 PM
He was tearing the 4th official a new one after Hagglund was sent off on Sat.

Canary10
10-16-2014, 02:11 PM
He was tearing the 4th official a new one after Hagglund was sent off on Sat.

First sign of life I've seen from him.

Honestly, in terms of intensity, TFC have looked like they were on their way to a baby shower each of the games he's coached. I don't think he can motivate.

burlington Red
10-16-2014, 02:22 PM
He isn't a hairdryer treatment type of manager, that's for sure. He wouldn't be one for Braveheart type speeches geeing up his players. There is not neccessarily anything wrong with that, plenty of easy going managers these days, but at the point we were in at that part of the season, I believe a more forceful personality would have lifted the morale more. Often when a new manager comes into a club, particulary one that is struggling, the players automatically raise their games for a few at least anyway- we did the opposite- our 2 performances v Philly were woeful and there were points to be had there. Maybe him coming from within played into that.LA game he pretty much give up on before we even kicked off.
Tactics wise we have been poor, we beat a Chivas team my over 30 pub team would have beaten. We give Portland a 2 goal start at home then ended up beating them courtesy of set peices.
I do have sympathy in that the team needs refreshed, and we had the Defoe saga which didn't help. I personally wouldn't go with him. I am starting to divert my thought process away from must having someone with MLS experience, there just isn't the quality out there. I'd certainly be open to a foreign manager if the right one presented himself, doesn't have to be a sexy name, just someone who has worked within a tight budget, but whose teams play football, not the long ball crap we have seen under both managers this season

Areathrasher
10-16-2014, 02:59 PM
First sign of life I've seen from him.

Honestly, in terms of intensity, TFC have looked like they were on their way to a baby shower each of the games he's coached. I don't think he can motivate.

It's not like the team didn't have completely lackluster performances under Nelsen either.

I'm completely on the fence about Vanney. I can't make up my mind if they should stick or get rid.

Yohan
10-16-2014, 03:04 PM
It's not like the team didn't have completely lackluster performances under Nelsen either.

I'm completely on the fence about Vanney. I can't make up my mind if they should stick or get rid.
I've resigned to the fact that we're stuck with Vanney, unless the axe comes down from MLSE to clean house again.

Canary10
10-16-2014, 03:09 PM
It's not like the team didn't have completely lackluster performances under Nelsen either.

I'm completely on the fence about Vanney. I can't make up my mind if they should stick or get rid.

Yeah for sure. But for the most part I think the team had some toughness and on the whole I think the players played for him, that game against New England notwithstanding.

Really, we need to answer the question why we went on such a huge second half of the season slide.

Areathrasher
10-16-2014, 03:10 PM
I think overall the bigger question is, why was our home form so shit all year.

That's just me though

Canary10
10-16-2014, 03:14 PM
I think overall the bigger question is, why was our home form so shit all year.

That's just me though

Yeah that's true too.

OgtheDim
10-16-2014, 03:21 PM
I think overall the bigger question is, why was our home form so shit all year.

That's just me though

Time to get out the off season cliche bingo cards:




Under the O

"We have to make BMO a fortress again."

trane
10-16-2014, 03:29 PM
I agree ( or I should say I do not disagree-I would prefer someone who has build a lossing team into a winning team) with the theory, I am just not sure that Vanney is the one. I have not seen enough to think that he is.

Areathrasher
10-16-2014, 03:41 PM
I agree ( or I should say I do not disagree-I would prefer someone who has build a lossing team into a winning team) with the theory, I am just not sure that Vanney is the one. I have not seen enough to think that he is.

I don't think anyone can accurately say that either way- if he's show enough or not enough. Too small a sample size.

Jay Heaps led a team on a 9 game losing streak and the Revs still made the playoffs.
Ben Olsen and 3 wins last year and look at DC now.

Vanney hasn't show much right now but after some roster changes and a preseason, who's to say he wont? Or will it be more of the same?

I don't think there is enough evidence to say either way.

TFC07
10-16-2014, 03:59 PM
I don't think anyone can accurately say that either way- if he's show enough or not enough. Too small a sample size.

Jay Heaps led a team on a 9 game losing streak and the Revs still made the playoffs.
Ben Olsen and 3 wins last year and look at DC now.

Vanney hasn't show much right now but after some roster changes and a preseason, who's to say he wont? Or will it be more of the same?

I don't think there is enough evidence to say either way.

But here's the thing: can TFC afford to take a risk (again) on rookie coach and management for that matter?

Enough with rookies, bring on experience coach and president/GM (doesn't matter if MLS experience or not) who have proven track record to manage this club. We need a guy like Floro (current Canadian manager) to run TFC not Bez and Vanney.

If we're going to spend millions on players, then can't we spend huge sum of money on management side (including coaching staff) too?

Let me ask you these questions?: do we have scouting system? Do we have right people running academy? Do we even have technical director?

This is why we need a soccer guy to be president of TFC and get the right people to run and manage this club.

OgtheDim
10-16-2014, 04:24 PM
But here's the thing: can TFC afford to take a risk (again) on rookie coach and management for that matter?

....

Any management change (but not necessarily a coaching one) would require this team be blown up and not be competitive until 2017.

Hands up anybody willing to wait through 2 more seasons of not getting to the playoffs?

I hear what you are talking about what this team should do infrastructure wise. But blowing up this team now is exactly what people have said TFC has to stop doing.

Areathrasher
10-16-2014, 04:47 PM
But here's the thing: can TFC afford to take a risk (again) on rookie coach and management for that matter?

Enough with rookies, bring on experience coach and president/GM (doesn't matter if MLS experience or not) who have proven track record to manage this club. We need a guy like Floro (current Canadian manager) to run TFC not Bez and Vanney.

If we're going to spend millions on players, then can't we spend huge sum of money on management side (including coaching staff) too?

Let me ask you these questions?: do we have scouting system? Do we have right people running academy? Do we even have technical director?

This is why we need a soccer guy to be president of TFC and get the right people to run and manage this club.

Realistically and honestly, I don't believe there is a suitable attainable experienced guy out there for TFC to get IMO.

TFC07
10-16-2014, 05:14 PM
Any management change (but not necessarily a coaching one) would require this team be blown up and not be competitive until 2017.

Hands up anybody willing to wait through 2 more seasons of not getting to the playoffs?

I hear what you are talking about what this team should do infrastructure wise. But blowing up this team now is exactly what people have said TFC has to stop doing.

First team is going to be blowed up this off-season anyway! It doesn't take couple of years to get into the playoffs. DC United this year is proving that it only takes a good off-season to turn things around.

Right now, TFC lack of leadership and experience is what's holding this club back.

TFC07
10-16-2014, 05:17 PM
Realistically and honestly, I don't believe there is a suitable attainable experienced guy out there for TFC to get IMO.

This is why we need to look outside the league to find that guy. This whole MLS experience is nothing but BS excuse to keep hiring rookies who played in MLS one point in their careers or people inside MLS circle (old boys club).

JuliquE
10-16-2014, 05:32 PM
I'm on the fence, as well.

When Vanney was appointed, we were skidding out of control, and in turmoil, off the pitch. With a quick turn-around, he was maybe afforded ONE normal day's training to implement his playing philosophy, with the rest of the time spent on recovery. Needless to say, he stood little chance at succeeding; three games in a week should normally not mean the end of the world, but that's when you've had up to that point in the season to acclimate the squad to your system. You sometimes get a "new coach bump," as the players raise their game, in a bid to make a good first impression.. but, just how much they would have in the tank, with which to do so, having played only a couple days before facing Philly, is questionable; an unfavourable, if predictable, result left a mountain for Vanney to climb, as he continued to try and get everyone to buy into his methods.

Of the eight games under Vanney, he's had similarly quick turn-arounds for four of them.. so, half of what is already a small sample size must be taken with a HUGE grain of salt (not completely discounted, mind). Factor in that two of those four games came straight away, and how the inevitably negative results sink the team deeper into a funk, and it HAS been hard on him. That said, he's rarely one to whine and give excuses, which raises an intriguing point: if you've got a fiery manager (as some are calling for), usually it comes with the excuses ("us against them" mentality; see Nelsen).. whilst one more even keel will tend to accept more of the responsibility; the latter description suits Vanney more, but he's exploded on the sidelines, a time or two.. which leads me to believe he's the right balance, between the two (I don't buy into how some are suggesting he's lifeless, at all).

In the past, when new coaches would offer up their analysis of what needs work, it always seemed vague and about saying the right things. Vanney actually seems to have a crystal clear idea of what's needed, without all the gimmicks. For me, one and two of the pieces that suited Nelsen's more counter-attack driven style are limiting Vanney's ability to curb things his way -- that, and, of course, having had such a limited time to work with the squad (no pre-season being a huge factor, as well). I wouldn't revolt, were we to hit a home-run with his replacement.. but, I feel like Vanney's shown enough to have me curious to see what he can do, next year.

evermorian
10-16-2014, 05:49 PM
Realistically and honestly, I don't believe there is a suitable attainable experienced guy out there for TFC to get IMO.

What about former Montreal Impact coach Marco Schällibaum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Sch%C3%A4llibaum)? Even though his time at Montreal didn't end on the best of terms, I liked the style of play that he brought to Montreal and thought he was pretty decent.

ensco
10-16-2014, 05:50 PM
Sometimes all you get in life is an 10 game audition.

I'm 100% ready to move on, but only as part of something bigger and somewhat thought through.

Areathrasher
10-16-2014, 05:57 PM
This is why we need to look outside the league to find that guy. This whole MLS experience is nothing but BS excuse to keep hiring rookies who played in MLS one point in their careers or people inside MLS circle (old boys club).

The track record of foreign coaches in MLS speaks for it's self.

Areathrasher
10-16-2014, 05:58 PM
What about former Montreal Impact coach Marco Schällibaum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Sch%C3%A4llibaum)? Even though his time at Montreal didn't end on the best of terms, I liked the style of play that he brought to Montreal and thought he was pretty decent.

The guy is a lunatic, no thanks.

JuliquE
10-16-2014, 06:01 PM
For a lot of people, Bruce Arena would be a home-run appointment.

Worth noting that he has gone out of his way to sing Vanney's praises.

evermorian
10-16-2014, 06:06 PM
The guy is a lunatic, no thanks. How so?

Areathrasher
10-16-2014, 06:09 PM
How so?

He's not called the swiss volcano for nothing.

Was sent off numerous time and gave many a wild press conference.

evermorian
10-16-2014, 06:15 PM
He's not called the swiss volcano for nothing.

Was sent off numerous time and gave many a wild press conference.
Not that he would necessarily be the best candidate but he got montreal to play some decent soccer.

OgtheDim
10-16-2014, 06:15 PM
There is no reason to believe this team is getting blown up off season.

And the DCU example actually points to stability of a coach after a bad season. That and their turn around is the outlier. Most teams that bad get to where we are.

jloome
10-16-2014, 06:25 PM
There is no reason to believe this team is getting blown up off season.

And the DCU example actually points to stability of a coach after a bad season. That and their turn around is the outlier. Most teams that bad get to where we are.

Is it any coincidence that the teams with the most coaching changes are TFC and CHivas?

There is something to be said for consistency, particularly when some of the most successful teams in this league right now are coached by former MLS players who went through growing pains: New England, KC, Dallas, New York, Columbus....

I don't think following the lead of teams that have had success is "cheaping out." It's recognizing there are distinct challenges to manage in this league, a distinct playing style based on NA player developnment.

Yohan
10-16-2014, 06:58 PM
There is no reason to believe this team is getting blown up off season.

And the DCU example actually points to stability of a coach after a bad season. That and their turn around is the outlier. Most teams that bad get to where we are.
Keeping a coach for the sake of continuity is stupid. You must believe that the coach has the potential to turn it around next season. Ben Olsen would have been fired in any other team. He did prove that he can do the job, because DCU 2012 had a decent season, plus US Open Cup in 2014. Though a lot of people think DCU kept Olsen because he's a DCU legend, which I'm sure was part of reason why Olsen didn't get fired.

I've yet to see that Vanney has that same potential so far, though he does talk a good game. Show me something during the games, Vanney.

Burning Red
10-16-2014, 07:04 PM
Just my personal opinion but I want Vanney gone. He has done nothing to earn my respect other than talk a good game. He seems more intelligent than nelson both technically and tactically, however he is just another inexperienced deer caught in the headlights and in way over his head for the TFC coaching role. I think he has potential for a head coaching position down the road but his simple lack of experience is damning. It is not Vanney per se, I believe that TFC needs a far more experienced coach by this point. The fans deserve it and the club is badly in need of it.

We were in full crisis mode before this season began and yet the club continue to appoint inexperienced managers that are a gamble at best. If management has finally realised we need much better quality players, a system, and dedicated club structures, then why not, after this shit show of an end to the season, do they not learn we need a quality manager as well?

I reject the argument others on here are saying that young inexperienced former players become coaches are OK and worth a shot for next season for TFC simply because they exist in the rest of the league. I think a lot more people need to look at the specific history of what our failure in the league represents: what works for other clubs in MLS has very rarely worked for TFC. The club has tried in vane to emulate other clubs and do "as MLS does" in their darkest hours, searching for answers.


This has failed for TFC. We need to stop looking at other teams for the answers as well. Our solutions for next season need to be based upon the clubs own reasons for failure. Our own problems of the past need to be what we focuses our solutions for next season. And, correct me if I am wrong, most people on here seem to have a good knowledge of what those are. Why does management continually try to make TFC like the rest of the league. TFC are a very different club than most in this league and need to implement solutions based upon our own history. For better and worse, TFC has never been a club that fits the mould in MLS.

I also argue this because I believe that we need a head coach whom is experienced enough that he can handle the pressure of absolutely having to make the playoffs next season. Handling the history of failure is hard for any TFC coach and I think it actually inhibits our managers. I can only imagine the mental strength needed to handle that kind of specific historical failure must be a full time job our coaches have to deal with. Someone who is used to much higher stakes outside of MLS would be advantageous.

For TFC the time for growing pains and patience with living with the madness of continually repeating the same errors time and again is over. It should have ended after season 7 concluded. We have had enough time to learn from our own failures. I cant imagine what kind of dire straights the club will be in if we miss the playoffs again next year.

Ownership and management owe us and the team more than this bullsh$t. Keeping Vanney is just insulting to me. Surely most people should have learned that keeping a coach, no matter how bad they are, for sake of consistency is just lunacy as well. It may have worked for some other teams, but again, has failed repeatedly for TFC. If that was the case, we should have stuck with Nelson. How many more seasons will fans be forced to endure failure and excuses once more while TFC attempt to learn the lesson that this team, in this city, under this organization, with our specifics of failure need a far more intelligent, capable, mentally strong and experienced coach?


Keeping Vanney is just another case of MLSE gambling with supporters money and good faith.

jloome
10-16-2014, 07:05 PM
Keeping a coach for the sake of continuity is stupid. You must believe that the coach has the potential to turn it around next season. Ben Olsen would have been fired in any other team. He did prove that he can do the job, because DCU 2012 had a decent season, plus US Open Cup in 2014. Though a lot of people think DCU kept Olsen because he's a DCU legend, which I'm sure was part of reason why Olsen didn't get fired.

I've yet to see that Vanney has that same potential so far, though he does talk a good game. Show me something during the games, Vanney.

You mean like coming back from 2-0 down against Portland, or scoring five set piece goals in two games?

jloome
10-16-2014, 07:09 PM
Just my personal opinion but I want Vanney gone. He has done nothing to earn my respect other than talk a good game. He seems more intelligent than nelson both technically and tactically, however he is just another inexperienced deer caught in the headlights and in way over his head for the TFC coaching role. I think he has potential for a head coaching position down the road but his simple lack of experience is damning. It is not Vanney per se, I believe that TFC needs a far more experienced coach by this point. The fans deserve it and the club is badly in need of it.

We were in full crisis mode before this season began and yet the club continue to appoint inexperienced managers that are a gamble at best. If management has finally realised we need much better quality players, a system, and dedicated club structures, then why not, after this shit show of an end to the season, do they not learn we need a quality manager as well?

I reject the argument others on here are saying that young inexperienced former players become coaches are OK and worth a shot for next season for TFC simply because they exist in the rest of the league. I think a lot more people need to look at the specific history of what our failure in the league represents: what works for other clubs in MLS has very rarely worked for TFC. The club has tried in vane to emulate other clubs and do "as MLS does" in their darkest hours, searching for answers.


This has failed for TFC. We need to stop looking at other teams for the answers as well. Our solutions for next season need to be based upon the clubs own reasons for failure. Our own problems of the past need to be what we focuses our solutions for next season. And, correct me if I am wrong, most people on here seem to have a good knowledge of what those are. Why does management continually try to make TFC like the rest of the league. TFC are a very different club than most in this league and need to implement solutions based upon our own history. For better and worse, TFC has never been a club that fits the mould in MLS.

I also argue this because I believe that we need a head coach whom is experienced enough that he can handle the pressure of absolutely having to make the playoffs next season. Handling the history of failure is hard for any TFC coach and I think it actually inhibits our managers. I can only imagine the mental strength needed to handle that kind of specific historical failure must be a full time job our coaches have to deal with. Someone who is used to much higher stakes outside of MLS would be advantageous.

For TFC the time for growing pains and patience with living with the madness of continually repeating the same errors time and again is over. It should have ended after season 7 concluded. We have had enough time to learn from our own failures. I cant imagine what kind of dire straights the club will be in if we miss the playoffs again next year.

Ownership and management owe us and the team more than this bullsh$t. Keeping Vanney is just insulting to me. Surely most people should have learned that keeping a coach, no matter how bad they are, for sake of consistency is just lunacy as well. It may have worked for some other teams, but again, has failed repeatedly for TFC. If that was the case, we should have stuck with Nelson. How many more seasons will fans be forced to endure failure and excuses once more while TFC attempt to learn the lesson that this team, in this city, under this organization, with our specifics of failure need a far more intelligent, capable, mentally strong and experienced coach?


Keeping Vanney is just another case of MLSE gambling with supporters money and good faith.

How on Earth do you think we've followed the MLS blueprint? About the closest we got was Preki. All of the teams currently being coached by the young, inexperienced for MLS players that you decry are winning teams. And foreign coaches, experienced or not, do not have a great record in this league (with the exception of Octavio Zambrano). Carlos Queroz flamed out at NY; Gullit flamed out at LA; Winter, Johnson, Carver and Nelsen flamed out here.

Just for once, I'd like a team that will mostly be made up of Americans to be coached by someone familiar with the American game. It seems to be working everywhere else, but apparently "evidence of efficacy" isn't a solid argument when the pitchforks are out.

Yohan
10-16-2014, 07:14 PM
You mean like coming back from 2-0 down against Portland, or scoring five set piece goals in two games?
how about always coughing up the first goal, and the players still suffer same problems as before? Team comes out not mentally prepared.

TFC07
10-16-2014, 07:21 PM
How on Earth do you think we've followed the MLS blueprint? About the closest we got was Preki. All of the teams currently being coached by the young, inexperienced for MLS players that you decry are winning teams. And foreign coaches, experienced or not, do not have a great record in this league (with the exception of Octavio Zambrano). Carlos Queroz flamed out at NY; Gullit flamed out at LA; Winter, Johnson, Carver and Nelsen flamed out here.

Just for once, I'd like a team that will mostly be made up of Americans to be coached by someone familiar with the American game. It seems to be working everywhere else, but apparently "evidence of efficacy" isn't a solid argument when the pitchforks are out.

This current TFC team is American as you get (both on-field and off-field), but they simply haven't perform.

Problem isn't the players (talent is there), it's coaching and lack of soccer people running the club that is issue.

MLS is quickly turning into other soccer leagues around the world that we got clubs spending money to win games while salary cap keeps on increasing. So using MLS 1.0. coaches in the past as evidence for foreign managers not working in MLS is useless.

Areathrasher
10-16-2014, 07:32 PM
This current TFC team is American as you get (both on-field and off-field), but they simply haven't perform.

Problem isn't the players (talent is there), it's coaching and lack of soccer people running the club that is issue.

MLS is quickly turning into other soccer leagues around the world that we got clubs spending money to win games while salary cap keeps on increasing. So using MLS 1.0. coaches in the past as evidence for foreign managers not working in MLS is useless.

They aren't all MLS 1.0 coaches tho. Only Queiroz is.

Sullivan
10-16-2014, 09:27 PM
Realistically and honestly, I don't believe there is a suitable attainable experienced guy out there for TFC to get IMO.
Without doing any research, John Spencer, Colin Clarke, and Hans Backe all come to mind.

Seeking a GM type who knows the league, knows his football, has contacts, .... Steve Nicol.

fwiw... I've got zero confidence in Bez & Vanney.

ag futbol
10-16-2014, 11:04 PM
First team is going to be blowed up this off-season anyway! It doesn't take couple of years to get into the playoffs. DC United this year is proving that it only takes a good off-season to turn things around.

Right now, TFC lack of leadership and experience is what's holding this club back.
Agreed. Changes are coming.

ag futbol
10-16-2014, 11:09 PM
Not that he would necessarily be the best candidate but he got montreal to play some decent soccer.
Well the good news is: the amount of staying power he has, he's likely match the tenure of an average TFC coach.

We don't want any part of this guy. He is a disaster on all levels.

Cashcleaner
10-17-2014, 12:43 AM
;1700959']Nah, I think he's laughing from his junior academy office and saying "another one bites the dust" each time a head coach is hired then fired.:drinking:

I agree. Well.... he may not be that callous. :D

But I also agree that Dichio probably has no intention to be ever be 1st team coach. Why would he? He's seen this club from the inside for 8 years now. He knows how many coaches and managers have come and gone.

I know this is a response to a post from a while back, but just had to throw in my two cents.

OgtheDim
10-17-2014, 06:09 AM
Keeping a coach for the sake of continuity is stupid. ...

TFC's motto.

Areathrasher
10-17-2014, 08:09 AM
Without doing any research, John Spencer, Colin Clarke, and Hans Backe all come to mind.

Seeking a GM type who knows the league, knows his football, has contacts, .... Steve Nicol.

fwiw... I've got zero confidence in Bez & Vanney.

None of those names fill me with any more confidence than Bez or Vanney do.