Doug Ford, John Tory Clash Over BMO Funding !

[Red CB Toronto]

Looks like the funding for BMO Field's renovation, at least the city's share totalling $10 million took centre stage between John Tory and Doug Ford at one of the mayor debates on Tuesday.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-john-tory-clash-over-bmo-field-funding-1.2783064

[greatwhitenorf]

Duh-gie!!! Duh-gie Fo-errd!!!

Just another dumb blond.

[Cashcleaner]

Oh yeah, I forgot there was some sort of debate going on today with the Toronto Sports Council. Though I imagine the Pan Am Games dominated most of the discussion. Thanks for the link, Red!

[ensco]

The bad company problem.

Someone you don't like says something you totally agree with.

Hey John, there are these things called "banks" that lend corporations money.

[OgtheDim]

Meh... Doug ain't winning this thing so this is just talk.

[TFC07]

Who cares about them!

End of the day, it's MLSE who ultimately controls BMO field. City might own BMO field, but they don't manage it at all. They're smart enough to leave it to MLSE who know how to make money for them.

Without MLSE and pro soccer, BMO field isn't profitable and more expensive for city to run it (Remember that MLSE and City share costs of maintaining BMO field).

[Ajax TFC]

On the one hand I agree with the Fords that MLSE should be able to afford this without city funding. On the other hand, the city makes money in the end for MLSE updating their building. I don't know how you can be against that

[TFC07]

On the one hand I agree with the Fords that MLSE should be able to afford this without city funding. On the other hand, the city makes money in the end for MLSE updating their building. I don't know how you can be against that

I disagree with Ford simply because City owns BMO field. If they didn't own it, then I agree with Ford 100%, but since City of Toronto owns BMO field, they should contribute to BMO field renovation which they gain a lot from (money, value of stadium & property and tourism wise by hosting events).

I personally surprised that no one tried to buy BMO field from City. I wonder what will be asking price before MLSE started renovation.

[C.Ronaldo]

normally doug would be all over P2s and P3s (publibc private partnerships)

this money isnt being given, its lent out and turns a profit. (backed by giant MLSE who has a 0.1% chance of default)

Dougy just seems to yell in the direction where most people are listening.

Sick of his negative bullying politcal tactics aswell. We finally had a semi clean race before he subbed in.

[Ajax TFC]

I disagree with Ford simply because City owns BMO field. If they didn't own it, then I agree with Ford 100%, but since City of Toronto owns BMO field, they should contribute to BMO field renovation which they gain a lot from (money, value of stadium & property and tourism wise by hosting events).
This is also true. Plus there's the fact that these renovations mean that they'll be able to rent it to the Argos as well

[OgtheDim]

I still think there is a grain of truth in what TL told is way back in May.

Rob Ford is asked about an idea, wants to call it his idea. Because he had no executive powers left, not going to happen. So, gets told no. Pouts.

[Shakes McQueen]

I disagree with Ford simply because City owns BMO field. If they didn't own it, then I agree with Ford 100%, but since City of Toronto owns BMO field, they should contribute to BMO field renovation which they gain a lot from (money, value of stadium & property and tourism wise by hosting events).

I personally surprised that no one tried to buy BMO field from City. I wonder what will be asking price before MLSE started renovation.

I might agree, dependent on seeing the financials showing how much, exactly, the city gets from BMO Field in a year.

[Oldtimer]

The city can't sell BMO Field because the Ex grounds are regulated by provincial legislation.

[MightyDM]

If you go back and look at the reports at the time, the City put in 10 million, got ownership of the stadium and shared half the profits, typically nearly $1 million. Likely have had 5 of the 10 million paid back. MLSE were responsible if there were losses. It now seems to be a flat rent deal but I have not seen the number reported.

[Fort York Redcoat]

These ridiculously complex arrangements get stadiums built in Canada with the result seldom as satisfying as the intent. We've got arenas down pat but stadiums have been over sized or over planned and overspent on.

[Still Kicking]

Dug can't truly see beyond his nose. What is the alternative to the MLSE/City partnership concerning this stadium?
Historically sports facilities are built centrally, a nod to fan bases in both east and west areas of GTA. Without city backing for construction on city property, where would MLSE build a stadium if they had to buy the land? My guess is that they would buy and build outside of Toronto. Since I live west of the city, I would cheer for west, but you never know.
My dream is to have multiple pro football clubs in the GTA, so perhaps I should be cheering for a Dug victory - a MLSE flight from BMO Field, a fantastic soccer stadium in the north end of Oakville....
Then I live long enough to see a future mayor of Toronto ( a Dug daughter perhaps?) begging MLS to bring a franchise back to the deserted National Soccer Stadium, dusty from a decade of neglect - you know a Mistake by the Lake...

[TFC07]

Dug can't truly see beyond his nose. What is the alternative to the MLSE/City partnership concerning this stadium?
Historically sports facilities are built centrally, a nod to fan bases in both east and west areas of GTA. Without city backing for construction on city property, where would MLSE build a stadium if they had to buy the land? My guess is that they would buy and build outside of Toronto. Since I live west of the city, I would cheer for west, but you never know.
My dream is to have multiple pro football clubs in the GTA, so perhaps I should be cheering for a Dug victory - a MLSE flight from BMO Field, a fantastic soccer stadium in the north end of Oakville....
Then I live long enough to see a future mayor of Toronto ( a Dug daughter perhaps?) begging MLS to bring a franchise back to the deserted National Soccer Stadium, dusty from a decade of neglect - you know a Mistake by the Lake...

Here here.

GTA is big enough market to support two pro soccer teams. Let's get another pro team and put in western GTA.

Hopefully all Canadian soccer league becomes a reality one day since MLS has no intention putting another team in Canada.

[Fort York Redcoat]

What about the USL team going in North of the city? We may want to wait a year to see those results. Then deal with a possible post pan am soccer situation in the West. Hamilton in the NASL?

[David_Oliveira]

Just a thought pulled out of my ass but if the province doesn't pony up with their 10 million, could it be used against them in the future?

Hypothetically, could MLSE say "hey peeps. Since you don't want to help us out, why not sell us the land the stadium is on and let us do what we want to the stadium whenever you want on our dime?"

[Ajax TFC]

Just a thought pulled out of my ass but if the province doesn't pony up with their 10 million, could it be used against them in the future?

Hypothetically, could MLSE say "hey peeps. Since you don't want to help us out, why not sell us the land the stadium is on and let us do what we want to the stadium whenever you want on our dime?"
IDK about that, but they could conceivably say if you don't lend us the 10m, we won't renovate the stadium which means the Argos won't be able to play there and then in several years there will be more than 10m in repairs required, which you'll have to pay for yourselves and you won't get the money back.

In short, it just makes no sense for the city to not help out. The Fords need to stop being such short sighted penny pinchers

[ag futbol]

I hate governments providing stadium funding. But as far as the city goes this is a low-risk expenditure they've already sunk cash into.

10 million with a payback, even at below market interest, not the worst thing I've ever heard.

[Ajax TFC]

The only real argument I can understand is that the city is too damn broke to chip in 10m, whereas MLSE isn't.

[Cashcleaner]

I hate governments providing stadium funding. But as far as the city goes this is a low-risk expenditure they've already sunk cash into.

10 million with a payback, even at below market interest, not the worst thing I've ever heard.


I agree, but when you break it down to fundamentals, it still doesn't make a lot of sense.

If this project (and others) are such no-brainers and are guaranteed to turn a profit for their investors, why does MLSE have to go the city for such a small amount of the total projected cost? I think people are right in that this would probably end up paying dividends back to the city in the long term, but that question still remains for this and a multitude of other similar projects. and it's especially relevant when you figure that $10 million will be only a fraction of the total cost of upgrades and renovations.

Because this is basically how it goes:

MLSE: We want to upgrade BMO Field and it will cost 105 million bucks to do that.

City: Okay, sounds good!

MLSE: Great! Now can we get a loan from you for 10 million to help do all that? Trust me, it will pay itself back within a few years. It's a guaranteed money-maker and you've got nothing to lose!

City: Wait, but if it's a guaranteed money maker and there's nothing to lose, why do you need us to give you the money in the first place? Why not cover it yourself and then you don't have to pay anything back and their no interest incurred. And if you're just short the cash for the initial costs, can't you go to a bank or a group of investors to spot you that amount?

[OgtheDim]

Ur missing a step


MLSE: We need to upgrade BMO because structurally there are issues. The engineers tell us its going to cost us $7 million now and then another $10 million in 5 more years and so on and so on. Your share is 50% of that. But, we got a way to fix that in the next 3 years. And we are willing to pay 90% for that fix. And it will increase your revenue. Care to put in a bit just to make our shareholders feel better? Otherwise, they may not go for it and you will be stuck paying more in the long term.

[Cashcleaner]

^ What structural problems are there? I thought that was all taken care of at the end of the first season. I remember news of all the falling nuts and bolts reaching the papers at the time.

[Ajax TFC]

I think the question of why MLSE needs a 10m loan from the city is a completely different matter from if the city should give it to them. It is indeed a very curious question about why a corporation with upwards of 2 billion needs a 10m loan. But its still pretty safe to say that they'll be able to pay it back. So where's the downside for the city?

[OgtheDim]

^ What structural problems are there? I thought that was all taken care of at the end of the first season. I remember news of all the falling nuts and bolts reaching the papers at the time.


Concrete rot from water damage. Been mentioned by not just MLSE but also the city manager.

[MightyDM]

The only real argument I can understand is that the city is too damn broke to chip in 10m, whereas MLSE isn't.

The City isn't broke. It has a modest debt and a good credit rating, which did not go down after the crash in2008 and even survived Ford throwing away hundreds of millions in cancelled LRT projects.

[MightyDM]

Concrete rot from water damage. Been mentioned by not just MLSE but also the city manager.

I'd that with a grain of salt. It sure doesn't look like the underside of the Gardiner....

[OgtheDim]

I'd that with a grain of salt. It sure doesn't look like the underside of the Gardiner....

That's cause they put more then a grain of salt on the Gardiner. :)

[Auzzy]

I'd that with a grain of salt. It sure doesn't look like the underside of the Gardiner....

You can see the water pooling everywhere in the stadium, for example the west-side concourse, which has enclosed building space beneath it. Also we know the structure incl. plumbing isn't winterized, so it makes sense that any water that seeps in somewhere due to bad drainage will cause further damage due to freeze/thaw issues. I would be surprised if the concrete wasn't damaged.

[Ajax TFC]

The City isn't broke. It has a modest debt and a good credit rating, which did not go down after the crash in2008 and even survived Ford throwing away hundreds of millions in cancelled LRT projects.
Your objection to my use of the word "broke" is noted. Next time I shall say that the city doesn't have a spare 10m to put toward BMO, meaning they would have to take out a loan of their own to cover it on which the interest may be more than they would get from their loan to MLSE, and therefore they would rather that MLSE just go straight to the creditors.

I'd that with a grain of salt. It sure doesn't look like the underside of the Gardiner....
And that's why the Gardiner costs a lot more than "$7 million now and then another $10 million in 5 more years and so on and so on" to repair.