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Pookie
09-06-2014, 07:33 PM
The Tim Leiweke era will be coming to a close in a few months.

If you were to be writing the biography on it today, how would you rate it?

Certainly no shortage of moves from Kevin Payne to offseason signings to the TFC/Winter Classic/Argos stadium expansion.

At the end of the day, TFC may not be a playoff team. May have lost a lot of money. May have reached a new level of lows when it comes to reputation in MLS with respect to player satisfaction. And may suffer worse TV ratings than Vancouver and "Lumberjack Challenges."

Yet, they have a lot of draft picks going into 2015. Showed that they can at least play some decent football at times and the stadium was fuller at stages during the season.

How do you rate Leiweke's Presidency?

Gilberto9
09-06-2014, 07:42 PM
Probably the most exciting era and also the most disappointing. If we miss out on the playoffs this year, it will take a huge toll on this franchise. Well, that was going to happen anyway if Leiweke didn't show up. When the news of Leiweke's soon to be exit came out, it seems like the team fell apart. Wish he was here for the long run.

Home opener vs. DCU will probably go down as one of the best sporting events I will ever attend.

cmonyoureds
09-06-2014, 08:18 PM
The Tim Leiweke era will be coming to a close in a few months.

If you were to be writing the biography on it today, how would you rate it?

Certainly no shortage of moves from Kevin Payne to offseason signings to the TFC/Winter Classic/Argos stadium expansion.

At the end of the day, TFC may not be a playoff team. May have lost a lot of money. May have reached a new level of lows when it comes to reputation in MLS with respect to player satisfaction. And may suffer worse TV ratings than Vancouver and "Lumberjack Challenges."

Yet, they have a lot of draft picks going into 2015. Showed that they can at least play some decent football at times and the stadium was fuller at stages during the season.

How do you rate Leiweke's Presidency?

Offseason signing were great. Not gonna lie. Brought a lot of hype back to a dead zone.
Argos stadium expansion effectively pissed off TFC fans, didn't seem to even move the needle with Argos fans. Therefore a fail.
He changed everyone but the coach it seems. Nelson was his guy. Therefore some of this mess needs to fall at his feet.
If Defoe goes, the whole mess of stupidity caused more harm than his goals were worth. Especially if they miss the playoffs.

Winter classic. Did we really need Tim to get this? Seems like a logical placement to me. Not giving him credit for that one.
Left Nonis in but somehow hired a bunch more guys to split that job into pieces. Jury still out on his effect on the Leafs.

Don't know enough about the Raps to comment.

Leiweke has spit the narrative that he was only ever here short term, everyone knew it, and spewed the corporate load with his whole "culture change". Yeeahhhhh.............suuuurrreeee.
TFC culture was to change managers, GM's, visions, styles and players. Blowing stuff up once, if not twice a year.
Seems to me the culture hasn't changed that much.

ensco
09-06-2014, 09:19 PM
Way too soon to say.

I don't understand the mood of the board at all right now. Who did we think we were? We were the worst team in the league by a country mile last year, I don't care who we added, this could never be a worst to first team.

We won a bunch of games in the first half but often played like crap and got lucky breaks (both of the first two Columbus games come to mind, also the NY game in May).

So we have reverted to the mean. We are a middle of the pack team, in the middle of the pack. We need to stop acting like this team was Real Madrid until July, and that the players need to commit ritual seppuku in shame at what is going on.

Bez and Leiweke have their reasons for pretending we are an underperforming juggernaut, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to blindly go along with it.

pdubs
09-06-2014, 09:23 PM
Exciting for sure. Tho it seems we have fallen off the wagon it has been a good (short) ride.

In terms of TFC I think the critical failure was keeping Nelson on when he arrived. You could even argue same thing about hiring Bez. Tim L brought big stars, lots of attention, media hype, ect. Field expansion and playoffs. However he stayed with an amateur manager and GM. Missed these crucial pieces.

Kaz
09-06-2014, 09:37 PM
A complete and utter failure.. if TFC fails to make the playoffs this year.. I don't see the roof being put on... it is two phases, I see it going to 30,000 seats and next year the stadium being half empty again.

I honestly see can see TFC folding/moving in a few years and MLSE washing their hands of it, and the Argos moving in. In fact I see the Argos moving in more likely now then before.

Tim cost MLSE over a hundred million dollars that is likely not going to be recouped.

burlington Red
09-06-2014, 10:21 PM
the timing of the announcement of him quitting did us no favours.

Initial B
09-06-2014, 10:43 PM
As Ensco said, it's too early for making a prognosis. Wait for two years after he leaves to give us some context.

tfcleeds
09-06-2014, 11:20 PM
Too early to tell, but if we fail to make the playoffs (which seems more likely with every passing game) this will have been the most disappointing season in our history. There was so much promise at the beginning of the year, now it seems to be turning to crap before our eyes like everything else that has gone wrong with this club.

Jack
09-07-2014, 06:47 AM
Way too soon to say.

I don't understand the mood of the board at all right now. Who did we think we were? We were the worst team in the league by a country mile last year, I don't care who we added, this could never be a worst to first team.

We won a bunch of games in the first half but often played like crap and got lucky breaks (both of the first two Columbus games come to mind, also the NY game in May).

So we have reverted to the mean. We are a middle of the pack team, in the middle of the pack. We need to stop acting like this team was Real Madrid until July, and that the players need to commit ritual seppuku in shame at what is going on.

Bez and Leiweke have their reasons for pretending we are an underperforming juggernaut, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to blindly go along with it.

Perfect. I'll just do a +1 since you summed up my thoughts exactly. We are still rebuilding.

Pookie
09-07-2014, 07:40 AM
Way too soon to say.

I don't understand the mood of the board at all right now. Who did we think we were? We were the worst team in the league by a country mile last year, I don't care who we added, this could never be a worst to first team.

We won a bunch of games in the first half but often played like crap and got lucky breaks (both of the first two Columbus games come to mind, also the NY game in May).

So we have reverted to the mean. We are a middle of the pack team, in the middle of the pack. We need to stop acting like this team was Real Madrid until July, and that the players need to commit ritual seppuku in shame at what is going on.

Bez and Leiweke have their reasons for pretending we are an underperforming juggernaut, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to blindly go along with it.

I agree though in some ways… the "who do we think we are" question was also influenced by Leiweke.

Easiest team in MLSE's stable of teams to turn around. Mark my words, playoffs and all that.

Expectations are high. Set by him. Fans paid up. Hard to then say fans should stop acting as if there are high expectations…. no?

ensco
09-07-2014, 08:34 AM
I agree though in some ways… the "who do we think we are" question was also influenced by Leiweke.

Easiest team in MLSE's stable of teams to turn around. Mark my words, playoffs and all that.

Expectations are high. Set by him. Fans paid up. Hard to then say fans should stop acting as if there are high expectations…. no?

We fans (all of us) are used and played to varying degrees by the execs that run the teams ... but I am not sure any fan base was "used" as much as TFC's small band of loyalists was during the Leiweke monarchy.

I put "used" in quotes because he gave us Defoe and Bradley, and really was trying to do his best for us, in his own way, I don't think he was a fraud ... but TFC's interest was hardly driving why he was doing it.

TFC being a big deal in a hurry, was a key part of a real estate deal that had the potential to be worth multiples of the TFC franchise. But that doesn't mean that TFC was actually a good team in a hurry, as we all know.

It's up to fans and players to not be roadkill in the corporate games. We're contending for the playoffs, and it's up to the players (and fans) to change the narrative back to that.

btw if Defoe will help us and will come back to do that, great!

OgtheDim
09-07-2014, 08:35 AM
Something about the expectations thing though keeps bugging me.

There were people on here who, it turns out rightly, pointed out that a turnaround in points like what TL said was going to happen doesn't happen in MLS.


DCU might be the outlier.

ensco
09-07-2014, 09:15 AM
Something about the expectations thing though keeps bugging me.

There were people on here who, it turns out rightly, pointed out that a turnaround in points like what TL said was going to happen doesn't happen in MLS.


DCU might be the outlier.

Most people reflexively believe the suits. It's human nature. They have a huge information advantage. They are impressive performers. They will wreck the careers of media people who will challenge them.

Most of all, we want to believe.

Leiweke said it was so, so it must be so.

MartinUtd
09-07-2014, 09:56 AM
I feel like Leiweke sold us a monorail.

speckles
09-07-2014, 10:00 AM
You simply need more depth to be sustainable in MLS. Expectations were set without the foundation of players. To be honest, they did well given our past history, to secure the players they did. The hard sell and premium paid made an unrealistic timeline and expectation of success. A lot of decisions made were for the short term.

Shakes McQueen
09-07-2014, 10:02 AM
Incomplete.

Kaz
09-07-2014, 10:19 AM
Most people reflexively believe the suits. It's human nature. They have a huge information advantage. They are impressive performers. They will wreck the careers of media people who will challenge them.

Most of all, we want to believe.

Leiweke said it was so, so it must be so.


The issue is when we don't make the playoffs it causes a greater negative effect, even after spending all this money, being told plays are a sure thing... and then the team falls apart, the coach sucks, your star players wants out, and the whole season implodes just as your are breaking ground to increase the stadium capacity by nearly 8 thousand seats that will be left empty if TFC doesn't show success.

This leads to a perceived lack of interest (ala the Argos) which makes it a cold ticket, and MLSE is even less interested in spending money... and the team stays in Leaf's territory until the eventually sell or MLS moves the team Las Vegas or something.

Fort York Redcoat
09-07-2014, 11:04 AM
The Tim Leiweke era will be coming to a close in a few months.

If you were to be writing the biography on it today, how would you rate it?

Certainly no shortage of moves from Kevin Payne to offseason signings to the TFC/Winter Classic/Argos stadium expansion.

At the end of the day, TFC may not be a playoff team. May have lost a lot of money. May have reached a new level of lows when it comes to reputation in MLS with respect to player satisfaction. And may suffer worse TV ratings than Vancouver and "Lumberjack Challenges."

Yet, they have a lot of draft picks going into 2015. Showed that they can at least play some decent football at times and the stadium was fuller at stages during the season.

How do you rate Leiweke's Presidency?

I don't know any other names that could have done what he did here. The Carnival Barker got big name players to stop by this club and as you say we have hope in watching the youth perhaps grow this club into a competitor. As important as money in the coffers and ratings are I don't really concern myself with them.

If we don't make the playoffs he didn't fulfill one of his most important promises in my opinion. Not that I like playoffs (as you know) but it was a performance promise.

The stadium business will be the biggest thing to me. If we get it without Argos that's a big win. How we'll fill it is luckily not my problem either.

ensco
09-07-2014, 11:11 AM
The issue is when we don't make the playoffs it causes a greater negative effect, even after spending all this money, being told plays are a sure thing... and then the team falls apart, the coach sucks, your star players wants out, and the whole season implodes just as your are breaking ground to increase the stadium capacity by nearly 8 thousand seats that will be left empty if TFC doesn't show success.

This leads to a perceived lack of interest (ala the Argos) which makes it a cold ticket, and MLSE is even less interested in spending money... and the team stays in Leaf's territory until the eventually sell or MLS moves the team Las Vegas or something.

Yes. I have argued that this is a possible (probable?) outcome elsewhere. We'll have to see.

I doubt they'd move/sell the team, but I could see this being a hopeless situation from a fan POV for a long time post Leiweke.

There are a bunch of things that need to play out with MLSE, Bez, Bradley, Gilberto ... we can only watch and hope right now. I hope that the board realizes that, for the love of god, Leiweke needs to be replaced today, the vacuum is killing us.

Kaz
09-07-2014, 11:28 AM
Yes. I have argued that this is a possible (probable?) outcome elsewhere. We'll have to see.

I doubt they'd move/sell the team, but I could see this being a hopeless situation from a fan POV for a long time post Leiweke.

There are a bunch of things that need to play out with MLSE, Bez, Bradley, Gilberto ... we can only watch and hope right now. I hope that the board realizes that, for the love of god, Leiweke needs to be replaced today, the vacuum is killing us.

And this is why you can call this "era" a failure. He destroyed the club. I'm almost certain that if next year average attendance isn't 25+ their will be no roof. And the Argos will become Phase 2.

TFC07
09-07-2014, 11:46 AM
You can't judge Lewieke until 2017 at earliest to see his impact.

However, I think people are being way too short sighted here. TL plans were long term investment to preparing TFC in MLS 3.0 era but in short term goal was to put a competitive team on the field while selling out games which he did, everything else falls onto soccer side (Players and coaches) for recent slump. TL only mistake can be not hiring more experience soccer staff, but if you look at other MLSE teams (Leafs and Raptors), coaches there got a chance to prove themselves. So giving Nelsen his chance to prove himself wasn't a surprise either.

Overall, TL isn't the problem, it's players and staff who failed to deliver in the end. TL and ownership give all the resources to TFC to become a premier team in MLS, but people running day to day operations failed to capitalize on it. Only mistake TL and ownership in the past have made is not hiring a legit soccer staff who know the game and have proven track record.

ensco
09-07-2014, 12:19 PM
And this is why you can call this "era" a failure. He destroyed the club. I'm almost certain that if next year average attendance isn't 25+ their will be no roof. And the Argos will become Phase 2.

We don't need a roof. We need a good team first. This "vision" thing is going to kill us.

I think the whole BMO reno is much less of a sure thing then people think it is. Without Leiweke none of it makes sense. (I put that in the BMO thread weeks ago, right after Leiweke announced he was leaving, but got killed for it, fwiw)

Kaz
09-07-2014, 01:48 PM
We don't need a roof. We need a good team first. This "vision" thing is going to kill us.

I think the whole BMO reno is much less of a sure thing then people think it is. Without Leiweke none of it makes sense. (I put that in the BMO thread weeks ago, right after Leiweke announced he was leaving, but got killed for it, fwiw)
I think a lot of that is because it is supposed to start this month.. honest if by October 1st there is no equipment you know it is dead.

I think the Roof being put on "hold" would be a sign that TFC is dead in the water, it will get reported in the sports media and will drive more people away. I suspect if something big doesn't change, TFC will have 12,000 or less in a 30,000 seat stadium.

Tim L Cost MLSE millions that they likely won't recoup for a long time. How anyone would hire him after what he did here I don't know. The Leafs are still crap, TFC is still crap, and now there are optics that will hurt them even more.

Brooker
09-07-2014, 02:10 PM
Where does a kick in the balls rank on a scale of 1-10?

jloome
09-07-2014, 02:12 PM
Way too soon to say.

I don't understand the mood of the board at all right now. Who did we think we were? We were the worst team in the league by a country mile last year, I don't care who we added, this could never be a worst to first team.

We won a bunch of games in the first half but often played like crap and got lucky breaks (both of the first two Columbus games come to mind, also the NY game in May).

So we have reverted to the mean. We are a middle of the pack team, in the middle of the pack. We need to stop acting like this team was Real Madrid until July, and that the players need to commit ritual seppuku in shame at what is going on.

Bez and Leiweke have their reasons for pretending we are an underperforming juggernaut, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to blindly go along with it.

Except... we're not contending for the playoffs. Contending means we're actually playing in a way that means we could make it. We aren't. We haven't for most of the season.

I can't disagree more than with this sentiment. This team is, on roster, good enough to make the playoffs if coached properly. Lots of other teams have done it within 18 months of a new coach. This ongoing "rebuilding" statement is a fiction.

I don't think people are reacting like Real Madrid has crumbled; I think they're reacting like the "middle of the Pack" team you describe has crumbled, and it has. We're NOT a middle of the pack team right now, we're bottom of the barrel. Left in the state Nelsen has left them in tactically and in morale, it's a bloody big mess. And yes, hiring a guy like Defoe might have been part of that.

I'm not saying don't take him back, or even that Vanney is the wrong guy -- he certainly understood the tactical errors in the last game -- but the only accurate narrative right now is that a half-decent team has been turned into a shit team once again, by hiring the wrong guys above them.

This team is legitimately maybe three pieces away from contending for a title in this league: another rock-solid CB, an attacking midfielder with explosiveness and maybe one more wide player. If we had that, our other pieces would click a lot easier.

I think people have a right to be upset. Should they have expected Nelsen to flame out ten games before the playoffs? Maybe, as he had no experience. But we were a better team than this earlier this year; this is NOT settling to the middle, this is falling off the pace.

sidvan
09-07-2014, 02:32 PM
Poor - big splash and sizzle but no substance and leaves a bad taste in your mouth. We have no depth. You can't blame it on MLS cap rules as other teams are contending with big injury issues and are making do. If you ignore NY and LA who have the big bucks, all the other teams in the playoff picture have had to deal with the same types injury woes but they are winning through it at TFC's expense.

Blizzard
09-07-2014, 02:35 PM
It can't be done right now. Firstly, he's not even left yet. Bez may have fired Nelsen but Leiweke approved it!

If Toronto FC has a good cup run in three years with Bradley and Gilberto leading the way with Defoe's replacement making an impact, that will be as a result of Leiweke's time at the club.

The stadium renovation is also his baby and is not yet complete. We can judge that when we're under the roof in a year.

TV ratings aren't a factor. A winning team means better ratings and (as I said above), if Bradley and Gilberto (and Vanney I suppose) actually take this team somewhere, ratings will go up!

ensco
09-07-2014, 02:39 PM
Except... we're not contending for the playoffs. Contending means we're actually playing in a way that means we could make it. We aren't. We haven't for most of the season.

I can't disagree more than with this sentiment. This team is, on roster, good enough to make the playoffs if coached properly. Lots of other teams have done it within 18 months of a new coach. This ongoing "rebuilding" statement is a fiction.

I don't think people are reacting like Real Madrid has crumbled; I think they're reacting like the "middle of the Pack" team you describe has crumbled, and it has. We're NOT a middle of the pack team right now, we're bottom of the barrel. Left in the state Nelsen has left them in tactically and in morale, it's a bloody big mess. And yes, hiring a guy like Defoe might have been part of that.

I'm not saying don't take him back, or even that Vanney is the wrong guy -- he certainly understood the tactical errors in the last game -- but the only accurate narrative right now is that a half-decent team has been turned into a shit team once again, by hiring the wrong guys above them.

This team is legitimately maybe three pieces away from contending for a title in this league: another rock-solid CB, an attacking midfielder with explosiveness and maybe one more wide player. If we had that, our other pieces would click a lot easier.

I think people have a right to be upset. Should they have expected Nelsen to flame out ten games before the playoffs? Maybe, as he had no experience. But we were a better team than this earlier this year; this is NOT settling to the middle, this is falling off the pace.

We're not that bad. We're really not. We may make the playoffs with this team. I think it's 50/50. All these eastern teams are mediocre.

But I'd say the odds that Bez is gone are at least 50/50 regardless of performance this year.

So god only knows who will be here next year, and in that sense I am not making any sort of "rebuilding" case.

How I feel about next year ultimately turns on Bradley. If he's happy to be here, and management is happy to pay him the $33M we still owe him, then other players will want to come, it'll be OK. I'l wait and see, same as the rest of us.

ag futbol
09-07-2014, 02:47 PM
We're not that bad. We're really not. We may make the playoffs with this team. I think it's 50/50. All these eastern teams are mediocre.

But I'd say the odds that Bez is gone are at least 50/50 regardless of performance this year.

So god only knows who will be here next year, and in that sense I am not making any sort of "rebuilding" case.

How I feel about next year ultimately turns on Bradley. If he's happy to be here, and management is happy to pay him the $33M we still owe him, then other players will want to come, it'll be OK. I'l wait and see, same as the rest of us.
I think his role is outsized to say the least. It's one thing to be an in house lawyer, it's another to scout talent and actually manage an organization. I was always under the impression he was here as the numbers wonk, to prevent us from signing more Mariner-esque contracts.

We still need that soccer president we talked about in the past. If Mark Cohon comes in to replace Leiweke we might as well rebrand ourselves Chivas Canada.

Fort York Redcoat
09-07-2014, 02:58 PM
Except... we're not contending for the playoffs. Contending means we're actually playing in a way that means we could make it. We aren't. We haven't for most of the season.

I can't disagree more than with this sentiment. This team is, on roster, good enough to make the playoffs if coached properly. Lots of other teams have done it within 18 months of a new coach. This ongoing "rebuilding" statement is a fiction.

I don't think people are reacting like Real Madrid has crumbled; I think they're reacting like the "middle of the Pack" team you describe has crumbled, and it has. We're NOT a middle of the pack team right now, we're bottom of the barrel. Left in the state Nelsen has left them in tactically and in morale, it's a bloody big mess. And yes, hiring a guy like Defoe might have been part of that.

I'm not saying don't take him back, or even that Vanney is the wrong guy -- he certainly understood the tactical errors in the last game -- but the only accurate narrative right now is that a half-decent team has been turned into a shit team once again, by hiring the wrong guys above them.

This team is legitimately maybe three pieces away from contending for a title in this league: another rock-solid CB, an attacking midfielder with explosiveness and maybe one more wide player. If we had that, our other pieces would click a lot easier.

I think people have a right to be upset. Should they have expected Nelsen to flame out ten games before the playoffs? Maybe, as he had no experience. But we were a better team than this earlier this year; this is NOT settling to the middle, this is falling off the pace.

Tactics are a mess but morale is obviously up to the players and high with Nelsen's departure. Its their own performances have let them down, morale-wise.

jloome
09-07-2014, 03:13 PM
Tactics are a mess but morale is obviously up to the players and high with Nelsen's departure. Its their own performances have let them down, morale-wise.

Maybe, yeah. Hasn't translated yet though because of the aforementioned mess. Certainly, they were about as low as we've seen during the last Nelsen game against New England.

gate7
09-09-2014, 10:38 PM
still waiting to see if his 10mil dollar paint job was worth it.

Cashcleaner
09-10-2014, 12:52 AM
Except... we're not contending for the playoffs. Contending means we're actually playing in a way that means we could make it. We aren't. We haven't for most of the season.

I can't disagree more than with this sentiment. This team is, on roster, good enough to make the playoffs if coached properly. Lots of other teams have done it within 18 months of a new coach. This ongoing "rebuilding" statement is a fiction.

I don't think people are reacting like Real Madrid has crumbled; I think they're reacting like the "middle of the Pack" team you describe has crumbled, and it has. We're NOT a middle of the pack team right now, we're bottom of the barrel. Left in the state Nelsen has left them in tactically and in morale, it's a bloody big mess. And yes, hiring a guy like Defoe might have been part of that.


This sums up my feelings as well. TFC started this season off rather strong. We all remember the big 2-1 win in Seattle to start the season, as well as beating Columbus both home and away. But at the moment we're winless after 5 games - and the teams we faced weren't world-beaters by any stretch. Our last win was against Columbus and that was over a month ago!

The fact is, TFC played pretty solid first half of the season. Definitely not top-rate, but trending well and in a way that would have us make the playoffs with no real trouble. Now, playoffs are still attainable but slowly moving out of our grasp.

To address Pookie's original question, I had always thought the purpose of Leiweke coming in was to revamp MLSE's culture and change it's operating methods. If that was the case, him leaving shouldn't have that much of an effect on the organization. I mean, if a person is brought in specifically to install a new system of how to work and succeed, then them leaving should be of little consequence as long as the aforementioned system is still in place, yes?

The only problem is that at least for TFC, things may be starting to unravel but Leiweke hasn't even left yet. All said, though, I'm still not going to rush to any decision about his tenure until we know we've either made a playoff berth or are sitting out for yet another season.

tfcleeds
09-10-2014, 07:17 AM
This sums up my feelings as well. TFC started this season off rather strong. We all remember the big 2-1 win in Seattle to start the season, as well as beating Columbus both home and away. But at the moment we're winless after 5 games - and the teams we faced weren't world-beaters by any stretch. Our last win was against Columbus and that was over a month ago!

The fact is, TFC played pretty solid first half of the season. Definitely not top-rate, but trending well and in a way that would have us make the playoffs with no real trouble. Now, playoffs are still attainable but slowly moving out of our grasp.

To address Pookie's original question, I had always thought the purpose of Leiweke coming in was to revamp MLSE's culture and change it's operating methods. If that was the case, him leaving shouldn't have that much of an effect on the organization. I mean, if a person is brought in specifically to install a new system of how to work and succeed, then them leaving should be of little consequence as long as the aforementioned system is still in place, yes?

The only problem is that at least for TFC, things may be starting to unravel but Leiweke hasn't even left yet. All said, though, I'm still not going to rush to any decision about his tenure until we know we've either made a playoff berth or are sitting out for yet another season.

That's assuming he was around long enough to make much of an impact. I don't think you can change an organizational culture like MLSE's overnight.

Fort York Redcoat
09-10-2014, 07:35 AM
still waiting to see if his 10mil dollar paint job was worth it.

It has already been worth it. Does anyone care to imagine attendance without these moves?

brad
09-10-2014, 08:53 AM
It has already been worth it. Does anyone care to imagine attendance without these moves?

I was thinking the same thing as I was reading this thread. He basically revived the interest in the team with the "Bloody Big Deal". Attendance and interest would have been at an all time low had we not made the big moves we made in the off season.

If we fail to make the playoffs, and Defoe leaves, and we see the people that bought into the Bloody Big Deal walk away en-masse, are we really in any different state that we would have been if it had never happened? I'm not so sure.

Detroit_TFC
09-10-2014, 09:14 AM
It has already been worth it. Does anyone care to imagine attendance without these moves?

Absolutely. ST renewals would have been well south of 10K. He spent a lot to do it but from a multiple pockets perspective, $2M in ST sales cash flow in operations would have been lost otherwise.

That's what is so staggering about TL's (forced, I guess, due to the press leaks) departure announcement. If he was in place through ST renewals, at least there would be the hope he would make some more magic happen. I doubt he'll leave before ST renewals at this point but as a lame duck, he's done spending money.

Canary10
09-10-2014, 09:19 AM
It's good that we're adding 10,000 seats right at the time nobody will show up.

cmonyoureds
09-10-2014, 09:26 AM
That's assuming he was around long enough to make much of an impact. I don't think you can change an organizational culture like MLSE's overnight.

He's on record as saying the culture has been changed and his tenure was a wonderful success in doing just that.

Our culture pre-Lieweke? Rotate managers, front office circus, and a team that no one really knows what they're about.
Our culture so far post-Lieweke? (since announcement) Rotate a manager, front office circus and a team that no one really knows what they're about.

rowjimi
09-10-2014, 09:32 AM
If we fail to make the playoffs, and Defoe leaves, and we see the people that bought into the Bloody Big Deal walk away en-masse, are we really in any different state that we would have been if it had never happened? I'm not so sure.[/QUOTE]

If this were to happen I would call his time here a hallucination. I can't imagine he has too much influence on decisions right now. Perhaps the clarity comes through the new management team and how aggressive they are on improving the team and carrying on what he started.

OgtheDim
09-10-2014, 11:25 AM
If people are seriously comparing this team to the one from 2012, they are not actually comparing.

Look at the players we had starting at the beginning of last season and who we have now.


We are VASTLY superior.

Initial B
09-10-2014, 12:06 PM
^ But are we superior to the team from 2009?

TOBOR !
09-10-2014, 02:03 PM
I feel like Leiweke sold us a monorail.

Nice !

I'll add that it feels like you've stood in line hours for a ride on the best rollercoaster at your lcoal theme park - and it was great - but that was it. It's over. And you've just realised your wallet fell out of your pocket somewhere along the way.

That's what it feels like.

Best just to keep thinking about when you were in the middle of it, all upside-down and screaming and laughing and shit. That was Leiweke... but so's this.

Cashcleaner
09-10-2014, 02:05 PM
^ But are we superior to the team from 2009?

Absolutely. But because TFC and the league doesn't exist in a vacuum, most MLS clubs are also playing better football than 5 years ago. The overall level of talent playing in the league has steadily increased since then. Because of that, I sorta try to stay away from comparisons of our our current club against previous incarnations of TFC. We don't play against the TFC of 2009 - we play against the Houston Dynamo, Real Salt Lake, and Sporting KC of 2014.

Pookie
09-10-2014, 09:36 PM
If the TL legacy is about stadium expansion for the Leafs winter classic and as a result BMO sits 5-10k seats empty every game, we can effectively judge that as a failure from the soccer team's perspective. MLSE might count it a success if they make hundreds on every seat for outdoor games and Grey Cups. But we would call it a fail.

As for Leiweke's impact on TFC, I think the best thing he gave us was Bez. An MLS insider who needs to be given time to make this work. Connections and knowledge of the inner workings of the structure are significant pieces that we can't throw away.

If they miss the playoffs, I will rate it as a fail. Only because he said it would be easy and sold people tickets based on his guarantee

His legacy on the roster will be short lived once Defoe goes away. The fact he or Bez didn't trade draft picks is a positive... a big positive... but the results won't be known for years. I call that neutral.

ManUtd4ever
09-10-2014, 11:48 PM
Leiweke's legacy with TFC could very well end up being an epic disaster.

Defoe wants out after less than one season. Leiweke saddled his hand picked GM with an inexperienced coach that was out of his element. TFC is projected to lose a considerable amount of money for the foreseeable future, particularly if the stadium renovation project moves forward.

However, Bez was a solid hire, and if this team can turn things around and make the playoffs, it will mitigate some of the damage.

C.Ronaldo
10-15-2014, 09:43 AM
Did MLSE get bamboozled by Lieweke?

It seems little has changed in the way of culture.
TFC is going to have an empty stadium (all we needed was a roof)
The leafs were off to a bad start looking ill prepared. Too soon to tell.
The raptors may have a chance, not sure how if the the fake culture they are creating with we are north is sustainable (not to mention poor gramar). Still missing a superstar that wants to play in Toronto

Doesnt feel all too diferent from past efforts at TFC, except it has alot more jazz.

Sad part, it feels like everything is falling apart as Tim L leaves to bigger better warmer things.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120406182958/simpsons/images/f/f4/His_evil_plan.jpg
http://media.tumblr.com/567178de585148c0ba4737a2ed9c8442/tumblr_inline_mkiwv3xoaA1qz4rgp.jpg

barticusz
10-15-2014, 09:53 AM
Did MLSE get bamboozled by Lieweke?

It seems little has changed in the way of culture.
TFC is going to have an empty stadium (all we needed was a roof)
The leafs were off to a bad start looking ill prepared. Too soon to tell.
The raptors may have a chance, not sure how if the the fake culture they are creating with we are north is sustainable (not to mention poor gramar). Still missing a superstar that wants to play in Toronto

Doesnt feel all too diferent from past efforts at TFC, except it has alot more jazz.

Sad part, it feels like everything is falling apart as Tim L leaves to bigger better warmer things.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120406182958/simpsons/images/f/f4/His_evil_plan.jpg
http://media.tumblr.com/567178de585148c0ba4737a2ed9c8442/tumblr_inline_mkiwv3xoaA1qz4rgp.jpg

Maybe only to those that actually believed things could be changed within a 2 year period.

MKR
10-15-2014, 09:57 AM
that's an excellent and hilarious simpsons reference.

Yes he totally did as far as TFC is concerned.

Now i am not saying that many here actually believed that we had a top team on our hands, but the way Tim Liewike talked about the team after the Defoe and Bradley signings he sounded just like Lyle Lanley.

I wish we still had Payne.

MartinUtd
10-15-2014, 10:03 AM
I require citation for the monorail joke

forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?36563-How-do-you-rate-the-Leiweke-era#post1693918 (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?36563-How-do-you-rate-the-Leiweke-era#post1693918)

OgtheDim
10-15-2014, 10:13 AM
This talk of the world ending and TFC in worse shape then it was 3 seasons ago is so over the top, its becoming farcical in and of itself.

zeelaw
10-15-2014, 10:17 AM
I require citation for the monorail joke

forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?36563-How-do-you-rate-the-Leiweke-era#post1693918 (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?36563-How-do-you-rate-the-Leiweke-era#post1693918)
Credit bro. Shame on OP! lol jk

zeelaw
10-15-2014, 10:17 AM
Should we sing the monorail song Saturday?

TOBOR !
10-15-2014, 10:28 AM
I require citation for the monorail joke

forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?36563-How-do-you-rate-the-Leiweke-era#post1693918 (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?36563-How-do-you-rate-the-Leiweke-era#post1693918)

Yes, and you didn't feel the need to start your own thread just to make it.

glaze
10-15-2014, 10:30 AM
I disagree.
Sure, it hasn't resulted in playoffs, and the season could be considered another failure.
And it seems like we're back where we started.
But the journey was much different.
There was a huge energy when we signed Defoe, Bradley and brought in Cesar
That opener in Seattle provided more excitement than any TFC game in years.
There was an energy (at times) in BMO this season that was almost extinct.
Given what TL had to start with, what more could we expect?

Beach_Red
10-15-2014, 10:39 AM
Maybe the next guy in charge won't have the distraction of the NFL-to-Toronto and be able to just run the teams that are actually here.

Jack
10-15-2014, 10:42 AM
This talk of the world ending and TFC in worse shape then it was 3 seasons ago is so over the top, its becoming farcical in and of itself.
:thumbsup:

Yohan
10-15-2014, 10:55 AM
Big name DP did generate the buzz, but Leiweke took the easy way IMO.

He thought 3 expensive DPs would be enough to get wins. It worked in LA, and that means it should work in Toronto, right?

Little did he realize that LA was blessed that their DPs played at least 80% of the games. TFC? not so much. Problem with putting all your eggs in one (well, 3) baskets. You hope that your DPs are injury free and don't get called away too often. USMNT fans may hate Klinsmann for not calling up Donovan for WC, but for Galaxy, that was an incredible blessing as Landon now needed to prove something and went on beast mode.

It's always a risk when your roster is too top heavy, and you need an astute manager to be able to manage the DPs and the rest of the squad properly.

MKR
10-15-2014, 11:10 AM
This talk of the world ending and TFC in worse shape then it was 3 seasons ago is so over the top, its becoming farcical in and of itself.

does anyone actually believe that?

that's ridiculous. however it doesn't change the fact that Liewike was bragging about how he fixed the team a short time ago and i don't know about you guy but i don't see any evidence of that.

Globetrotter
10-15-2014, 11:29 AM
What's important here is that it wasn't a promise for the playoffs, it was a guarantee. Promises are easily broken. Guarantees have some type of incentive or repercussion if the guarantee is not met. You apologies for a broken promise; more is required for a guarantee.

PS, funny Simpsons reference.

TOBOR !
10-15-2014, 11:40 AM
I disagree.
Sure, it hasn't resulted in playoffs, and the season could be considered another failure.
And it seems like we're back where we started.
But the journey was much different.
There was a huge energy when we signed Defoe, Bradley and brought in Cesar
That opener in Seattle provided more excitement than any TFC game in years.
There was an energy (at times) in BMO this season that was almost extinct.
Given what TL had to start with, what more could we expect?

Groundhog Day

OgtheDim
10-15-2014, 11:49 AM
does anyone actually believe that?

that's ridiculous. ....

Its painful, but if you take a gander around the mls discussions, that's pretty much the feeling being thrown out there. It usually comes coupled with some idea Bogers has not changed things from what the Teacher's Pension Plan did. I don't think Bogers is stupid enough to hire an Anselmi type here again. Or let Tanenbaum choose the next TFC president.

Mild PTSD?

Nowhere near what people who have faced war and/or death and/or assault have to deal with.

But, its is psychological for some of these people.

Red4ever
10-15-2014, 12:01 PM
I'm assuming the board drove him away.

Say what you will about Lieweke but the upper brass at MLSE have been producing both money and failure long before he did.

Oblio2
10-15-2014, 12:02 PM
"Is there a chance the track will bend...?"

Beach_Red
10-15-2014, 12:03 PM
Its painful, but if you take a gander around the mls discussions, that's pretty much the feeling being thrown out there. It usually comes coupled with some idea Bogers has not changed things from what the Teacher's Pension Plan did. I don't think Bogers is stupid enough to hire an Anselmi type here again. Or let Tanenbaum choose the next TFC president.

Mild PTSD?

Nowhere near what people who have faced war and/or death and/or assault have to deal with.

But, its is psychological for some of these people.

I hope you're right, but if you look at the content of their TV networks they create themselves it's not very inspiring.

nascarguy
10-15-2014, 12:18 PM
everyone here needs to know if they do not know already is that Tanenbaum , bell and rogers do not care about there sport teams they make to much money to care.

jloome
10-15-2014, 12:30 PM
The problem is, he only has the two major failures. That's Makes KC "Brockton", and us "Ogdenville."

Where's "North Haverbook"? Someone's in for disappointment any day now!

If others of his ilk are any measure, he'll go into movie production. It's one of the easiest ways to use essentially valueless inter-state stock sales (boiler room sales) to raise money quickly from retirees. It's also how a fair swath of hollywood got rich -- they make movies guaranteed to lose money and pay themselves out first for production roles, before writing the whole thing off. It's almost impossible to pursue these cases across state boundaries with criminal penalties (they usually get a public scolding at worst) and the victims have already been suckered out of their savings, so they have no money to pay for civil recourse.

I'd write a book about a few examples I could give you but frankly, digging up stories and dealing with corporate scumbags became exhausting.

jloome
10-15-2014, 12:31 PM
I hope you're right, but if you look at the content of their TV networks they create themselves it's not very inspiring.

You can never go wrong underestimating the intelligence of many corporate executives.

OgtheDim
10-15-2014, 12:41 PM
everyone here needs to know if they do not know already is that Tanenbaum , bell and rogers do not care about there sport teams they make to much money to care.

And, as discussed already, a content provider like Bogers makes more money from a successful team then from a middling one. Tanenbaum is in it for the jollies, and the money.

Ultra & Proud
10-15-2014, 01:16 PM
Big name DP did generate the buzz, but Leiweke took the easy way IMO.

He thought 3 expensive DPs would be enough to get wins. It worked in LA, and that means it should work in Toronto, right?
Depending on what his next move is, I would say he did the all in, Bloody Big Deal thing to make a buzz, get in the playoffs, and be king for a spell because he new he was only here until June 2015 (when his next move starts I guess) and fixing the Hindenberg that is TFC in a short time would look good on any portfolio. He is all about ego and self-advancement after all. Make no mistake about that.

Beach_Red
10-15-2014, 02:22 PM
And, as discussed already, a content provider like Bogers makes more money from a successful team then from a middling one. Tanenbaum is in it for the jollies, and the money.

Sure, and if they could just buy an already-successful American team the way they buy their already-developed content they could provide us with that. But so far it looks like they are no more successful at developing sports teams than they are at developing any other content on their own.

They are, as you say, content providers.

C.Ronaldo
10-15-2014, 03:10 PM
I require citation for the monorail joke

forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?36563-How-do-you-rate-the-Leiweke-era#post1693918 (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?36563-How-do-you-rate-the-Leiweke-era#post1693918)

it took a while for the joke to sink in. thanks for the subconcious inspiration

C.Ronaldo
10-15-2014, 03:14 PM
Yes, and you didn't feel the need to start your own thread just to make it.

Your comment probably wasnt necessary. But I'll take it as friendly advice to look through the board before i post something new.

gate7
10-15-2014, 07:02 PM
He gets A 0 out of 10.....he blew a shit load of money and guaranteed playoffs. Well no playoffs.
I now believe losing Kevin Payne in liu of Lieweke was a big mistake.

Cashcleaner
10-16-2014, 12:43 AM
I'm assuming the board drove him away.

Say what you will about Lieweke but the upper brass at MLSE have been producing both money and failure long before he did.

I don't know what to think anymore. You could be right. Heck, I sorta want you to be right because I've said that about several past coaches and managers and probably for at least some of them it's completely true.

Maybe we need to stop fighting it. Maybe we need to stop telling ourselves that TFC is different than the Leafs and Raptors. Perhaps it's better to just accept the fact that we are an MLSE team. And because of that, we're going to continue on that proud MLSE tradition of just being run by a bunch of incompetent stooges that may have the resources and fan support to put together a winning team but are simply hamstrung by gross institutional ineptitude.

NolbertoS
10-16-2014, 01:36 AM
I give Lieweke a 5/10. He had the guts to clean TFC's management house as it really needed a complete makeover. But he was all smoke and mirrors and thought pulling an LA Galaxy type team in T.dot that fans will wanna stay. Getting Defoe shouldn't have been a priority, but aftet somebody leaked Forlan coming to TFC, and than not coming anymore, seems he got over zealous and realized that he needed a big star to get the Forlan negative news outta the media. I think he should've not let go of Payne. Payne was slowly building the team with Laba and Urutti and now seeing them both succeed out West means Kevin Payne would've made TFC a contender eventually, had they been patient. Nelsen should've never been hired. TFC should've risked a chance with Robbo who was Rennie's assistant at that time. Alot of things would've fallen into place slowly, but now MLSE will maybe tighten the purse strings and now it'll be harder to get quality DP's if required.

TOBOR !
10-16-2014, 09:55 AM
Your comment probably wasnt necessary. But I'll take it as friendly advice to look through the board before i post something new.

Yeah - sorry - no harm meant.

It's just that there are so many threads on the same topic spinning around here.

Rate this era. Rate that era. Let's think of different ways of expressing TFC's uncanny ability to snatch failure from the jaws of less failure.

It's all the same and could probably all fit in the same thread.

One really big "We're shit, and we know we are" thread.

speckles
10-16-2014, 10:03 AM
He will leave things in a worse state of momentum than when he came with his big fail.

After the hard sell to the Board by TL, which has not delivered, I think we are being way to optimistic that the Board will consider continuing the high dollar investment of the past season. There is no one of credibility to set that agenda and influence them going forward into the off season. Nelsen was involved in a lot of the transactions, his relationship with Gilberto agent is a key reason we had a look in, as an example. I think you will see player churn as many are not at ease with what went down this season. I have been told many are weary of Bradly who has more influence than his contribution on the pitch justifies in their eyes. Naturally he is the larger investment. It is not simply a case of dollars, if you are good there are many opportunities. Gilberto may move in and MLS players currently do not want to come here of they have a choice. They all talk and now the culture is considered toxic, no improvement where it matters from TL.

trane
10-16-2014, 10:35 AM
You can't judge Lewieke until 2017 at earliest to see his impact.



Really????? Are we still holding to the "five year" plan theory????? To me this seasons ended up in disappointment but was a step in the right direction. BUT when I read things like this, I feel like we are back in 2009. We need results and improvement ASAP, not two years from now.


We deserve BUTTER.

Jack
10-16-2014, 10:51 AM
Really????? Are we still holding to the "five year" plan theory????? To me this seasons ended up in disappointment but was a step in the right direction. BUT when I read things like this, I feel like we are back in 2009. We need results and improvement ASAP, not two years from now.


We deserve BUTTER.
BUTTERS?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isujdfWGqss

Dave67
10-16-2014, 10:58 AM
I'd rate him very high on delivering entertainment and excitement. I'm disappointed in the season, but that doesn't take away from the fact that TL made me excited about TFC again. I pretty much figured getting me excited about this team was mission impossible after 2013.

TFC07
10-16-2014, 11:03 AM
Really????? Are we still holding to the "five year" plan theory????? To me this seasons ended up in disappointment but was a step in the right direction. BUT when I read things like this, I feel like we are back in 2009. We need results and improvement ASAP, not two years from now.


We deserve BUTTER.

Well question was more about TL work overall not just on-field product alone. Yes, TL gets blamed for keeping Nelsen, but TL did delivery big signings and give all resources needed for TFC FO (both on-field and off-field) to succeed.

I believe if we had better a coach, we will be in the playoffs right now. If you look at talent on this team, they're good enough to at least make it to the playoffs.

jloome
10-16-2014, 11:06 AM
Yeah - sorry - no harm meant.

It's just that there are so many threads on the same topic spinning around here.

Rate this era. Rate that era. Let's think of different ways of expressing TFC's uncanny ability to snatch failure from the jaws of less failure.

It's all the same and could probably all fit in the same thread.

One really big "We're shit, and we know we are" thread.

Dude, if I was hip and young enough to be able to figure out how to put a sig on my posts, I'd probably have a new one from you weekly.

trane
10-16-2014, 01:26 PM
BUTTERS?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isujdfWGqss

hahahahhaha. They been doing it too us for a while.

Derko
10-16-2014, 01:42 PM
Disappointed and disillusioned, Feeling sucker punched by a Snake Oil Salesman

Suds
10-16-2014, 01:57 PM
did someone say butter??

Carts
10-16-2014, 02:01 PM
did someone say butter??

Nope, BEER...

WE DESERVE (free) BEER!!!!

Detroit_TFC
10-16-2014, 02:21 PM
Those first few months starting with the big announcements were fun, though. Felt good to be a TFC supporter.

OfficeGuy
10-16-2014, 02:48 PM
without playoffs - it will be a overpromised and underdelivered era - big promises, big deals and a huge budget to get ppl in the stands

sold tickets for the season with LA type moves, but without seeing that TO is its own entity and that MLSE owns/is involved in all the sports franchises here - where does the discretionary money come from? Galaxy taking from the NFL or NBA or MLB is all good, but that does not work here

I was excited because you could see the cross selling/culture with Leafs, Raptors and celebrities at BMO Field - but that went away fast as the Win Loss column left me with a WTF moment at horrid calls, Defoe woes and the slaughter of Bendik - sooo tired of seeing Goal of the week against him and Save of th week featuring our shots on net - but I digress -Leiweke Leid to us

trane
10-16-2014, 03:20 PM
Nope, BEER...

WE DESERVE (free) BEER!!!!

Buttered beer???

Derko
10-16-2014, 03:45 PM
Buttered beer???


All for say, Aye!!!!

Carts
10-16-2014, 04:02 PM
AYE!