TFC Tactical Discussion

[Jack]

Last night's match highlighted something that I've thought for a while about our midfield, which is that the two-man flat pairing doesn't give our backline enough protection and doesn't allow Osorio and Bradley to push forward. Also, Osorio isn't a winger/left midfielder, though his game should be effective playing in the left advanced position of a three-man midfield.

While Philly's counter didn't punish us other than on their goal, a team with a smart counter would definitely have shredded us with Oso, Bradley, Lovitz and Oduro all pushing up, plus Ashtone Morgan on occasion. I like attacking football, but you still have to have shape and someone high to take care of the ball. Shackling Osorio or Bradley takes away from what they can offer in the final third. That's why I think a 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation would suit us better, both for the players we have and for the style of play and opponents in MLS.

I posted this in the Philly matchday thread:


I'd really like to see us run a 4-3-3. I think our players have the skills for it and it fits with our lineup, but it's probably a tough call at this stage of the season.

When we have the ball, I'd try to play it this way:


Osorio, Gilberto and Moore play an inside-out game, where they make diagonal or horizontal runs that pull defenders with the others running into the space created. This would give Moore and Oso lots of options for passing and they'd have support from Bradley (inside), Bloom (outside) or Gilberto (up front) providing the triangle for passing. Moore does a good job of getting into the mix, knocking balls to Gilberto and they would be welcome to swap positions when they saw fit, with Osorio filling in behind.


Bradley provides the push up the middle, supporting Oduro's mad dashes down the right or giving the Oso/Moore/Gilberto trio a great option to switch back around. He can also, as he has shown, arrive late after the front trio has taken the ball deep. Him and Osorio both have the passing vision for this and having Warner mopping up would allow Bradley a bit more liberty to push up, although he would still very much have a key defensive role. Bloom has the legs to get up and down the pitch, and although I much prefer him on the right, he's probably our best option on the left until Morrow gets back, unless Ashtone Morgan somehow makes a triumphant return. Hagglund would have to be a bit more defensive on the right side, given that Oduro is going to be going forward with freedom and Bradley is going to be the one running into that channel behind him if play goes down the right.


By drawing defenders toward the potent trio of Osorio, Moore and Gilberto on the left, it gives Oduro the space he needs to run at defenders and pull them out of position, opening up space for said trio or for a trailing Bradley. If the ball stays on the right, Osorio then comes over to support toward the middle, Hagglund and Warner keep a relatively high line and act as an outlet if the cross isn't on, but also guard against a quick counter. In that scenario, Moore is the far post man and Gilberto either shows for low passes or drives toward the penalty spot for the cross.
http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/attachment.php?attachmentid=3266&d=1409676917


Defending, we rely on high pressure from Moore and Oduro, as well as Gilberto's ability to run forever and drop back to help the midfield. Bradley drops back in front of the D to help Warner and Osorio fades left to support on that side. Given the speed of Gilberto and Oduro, this would also allow us to recover balls with the option of Oso or Bradley using their vision to spring the counter.


http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/attachment.php?attachmentid=3267&d=1409677690


Anyway, maybe I play too much Football Manager, but I see this as a fairly dynamic system that would work with the talent we have, give us more options and still have good shape without the ball, provided the players play their roles. Am I off base with my assessments of any of the guys? I've watched a lot of the matches on MLS Live, but not every single minute of every single game.

There were some interesting comments on our tactics and it would be nice to have everything in one thread rather than scattered across match threads, transfer threads and news threads.


Interesting observations Jack, and I agree, but Vanney has already stated that he is going to implement a modified 4-4-2 with our midfielders pressing forward to create more offensive channels.

I would go with this lineup tomorrow:

---------------Bendik---------------

Bloom--Hagglund--Henry--Morgan

Oduro--Bradley---Osorio--Jackson

----------Gilberto--Moore----------


Vanney already said he'll be playing 4-4-2 because that system fits the players we have (which I agree with).

I just want to see something different tomorrow.


-------------Joe---------------
-----------------------------------
Mark----Bradley-----Doneil-----Nick
-----------------------------------
-------------Michael-----------------
------------------------------------
Domenic------DeRo<------>Jonathan
------------------------------------
-----Junior--------------Luke------




4-4-2 could easily not be a flat mid 4.

This is what I'd like to see:

----------------------Bendik--------------------------
Bloom-------Hagglund----Henry------------Morgan (only because I have to)
----------------------Warner-------------------------
----------Jackson-------------Osorio----------------
----------------------Bradley------------------------
---------------Oduro--------Gilberto-----------------

Here's what I think Vanney will put out:

----------------------Bendik--------------------------
Bloom-------Hagglund----Henry------------Morgan
Oduro---------Bradley------Warner----------Osorio
---------------Moore--------Gilberto-----------------


I have long thought a system similar, to what that dude "Jack" whomever he may be is suggesting would be best for this team, may invert the mid to 2 DMs 1 CM/AM as opposed to a 1 DM two 2 CMs, but generally the look is similar. We have the players.


why does this team always confuse "attacking football" with "pushing the ball up field as quickly as possible"?


We're pressing very aggressively and Philly is just passing crisply around us. Have a bad feeling if things stay this way.




Also, no plan for building out of the back. The D is often trying to hold onto the ball and pass it rather than lumping it forward.


What the hell is going on???? We can't put three passes together



Our 4-4-2 is too spread out. It's a nothing formation tactic. It's like a default setup in children's house league.


This team will only make the playoffs if Bradley plays as a single defensive midfielder.


Yes but if they don't chase the ball Philadelphia attackers will be able to turn and run at them with pace. Usually the CMs are there to protect the defence but both of ours are routinely up the field leaving just a flat-footed back line. We don't use the fullbacks in attack so our CMs try to make up the numbers up front. Everything is wrong IMO.


Please END Bradley-Warner partnership in the middle of field. When last time we won with both of them playing together? How many games we won with those two playing together?

Either start Bradley or Warner and have more offensive minded CM (Osorio) to partner up with.



There is no other answer but to play Bradley in front of the defence.

We have 3 lines of play right now. Teams in Europe play with 6 or 7 lines. The team Bradley came from, Roma, plays nothing like TFC in terms of tactics. Bradley is getting frustrated, it's very obvious.


Anyone notice that our troubles really started when Nelson went with the Bradley and Warner pairing? Neither player is really an attacking CM.



You can totally play 4-2-3-1. You put the box-to-box midfielder next to the true defensive mid and have him attack the box late. Portland and Vancouver have played this exact system.



More generally, our attacking tactics are horrific. There's little to no movement, nobody tries to breakdown defenders one-v-one, there's far too much pressure on Bradley to create, we hardly if ever switch the ball, we have no true TM yet try to play through one because we're so poor at passing creatively on the ground. What ends up happening is Warner and Bradley, spray the ball laterally and backwards with no hope of breaking down the defense. There needs to be an attacking midfielder to link the play, or a true target man like Dike so that we have an attacking presence.

In my opinion we need to play one of these attacking formations:

------Gilberto------
Lovitz-Osorio-Oduro
------Bradley------

More defined roles from Bradley and Osorio, Gilberto plays as a lone wolf up top in which he's been successful before and hopefully this can add some fluidity to the attack.

-Gilberto-Dike-
-----Osorio----
Bradley-Warner

Give Bradley more creative ability moving forward playing as a second attacking mid at times (and with his work rate also dropping back when defending), diminishes our shitty wing play and gives us a target man as an outlet for our back line when under pressure.

If/when Defoe ever returns:

---Dike-Defoe---
----Gilberto-----
-Osorio-Bradley-

These are my two cents.

[OgtheDim]

IIRC, cause last Saturday feels like an eon ago, didn't we start with a 4-2-3-1, of sorts?

Not that Warner and Bradley did much DM work....

[CommradePolski]

All i saw them doing last night was hoofball. Boot the ball to the forward and hope for the best.

[TFC07]

I think diamond shape 4-4-2 could work with this team as well (I believe we did play diamond formation when we're winning while Bradley was at WC).

Right now, CB's have no outlet besides Bradley to pass the ball to which they end up hoofing the ball. There needs to be a link between defenders and midfielders when we have the ball in our own end so we can build up something. Our midfield (especially in the middle) isn't creating enough for our forwards while not protecting our backline. IMO, this is biggest issue we're facing on this team.

[ag futbol]

Given what we have to work with right now I think sticking to the 4-4-2 and opening things up a little is a better plan than going 4-2-3-1.

Just don't think we have the pace from the FBs to fill the gaps or the technical / interchange play from the wingers to make it work.

Next year with turnover and changes I think you go in the 4-2-3-1 direction, but it's a bridge too far for our current roster.

[ensco]

Not to derail the intent here (I posted we should switch to 4-3-1-2 last night) .... but a lot depends on when/whether Creavalle and Morrow are available.

Without mobile, quality fullbacks any move to a formation like this won't work.

[jloome]

We had the best solution early in the season, when we were winning games: play Bradley mostly back and a creative mid beside him mostly going forward, preferably Osorio, but Bekker or even Lovitz would do in a pinch.

Why? Because Bradley's strongest skillsets, his world-class skillsets, are closing down the ball and reading the play early to close down passing avenues.

He's a better stopper than he is going forward; he's certainly overmatched to be doing both, and we look like a team trying to revolve around him as a full-field rover, which is ridiculous.

Warner isn't starting calibre, period. He makes very slow decisions, slower than Jackson, and gets stripped too often.

One of the things we lack since losing Rey has been our ability to hold up the ball and get other players into the play, or to use it to pull defenders out of position. We certainly aren't getting that with our current midfield mindset.

I say we play a wide diamond with Osorio at the top (or Lovitz if he's not healthy, as he's our second most industrious midfielder from a creative/dribbling standpoint, god help us) Bradley in front of the back line. We should switch Oduro and Jackson to opposite sides to force them to pinch in as we have little aerial threat from Gilberto/Defoe/Moore.

If we survive and get into the playoffs, our offseason priorities have to be 1) defining Bradley's role more closely 2) getting a creative attacking midfielder and wide players with more depth to their game than speed and a stepover or two. Our defense can survive injuries and wouldn't be hurt by one more decent center back. But we have no threat without some midfield creation and ability to hold the ball and move it on the dribble.

[jloome]

I'd set it up something like this for Saturday, put Dike in as a target man, see if we can't create some space for our Brazilian:

(assuming Morrow, Defoe, Caldwell and Osorio are all out):

------------Bendik---------------
Bloom---Hagglund--Henry---Warner
-----------Bradley--------------
Oduro-----DeRosario-----Lovitz
----------Gilberto-------------
-----------Dike----

EDIT: Warner played wide at RSL and is mostly a defensive player; given our fullback situation and his general uselessness elsewhere, it seemed a safer bet than playing Jackson on the right and Bloom on the left.

[barticusz]

I'd set it up something like this for Saturday, put Dike in as a target man, see if we can't create some space for our Brazilian:

(assuming Morrow, Defoe, Caldwell and Osorio are all out):

------------Bendik---------------
Bloom---Hagglund--Henry---Warner
-----------Bradley--------------
Oduro-----DeRosario-----Lovitz
----------Gilberto-------------
-----------Dike----

I believe DeRo is still out with the NT.

[jloome]

I believe DeRo is still out with the NT.

BAH!
We actually need him now, with Osorio out, and....

Ah well. Then we play Bekker as the secondary midfielder, and play to the fact that he's shit going back. Either way, the key is to get some space created in the offensive end by using the wide guys to get the ball up to Dike, to either hold up and dish to Gilberto/Bekker (or maybe Jackson wide and Lovitz in the middle? Hmmm...) or to get on the end of crosses. Either way, it'll create more danger than anything we're doing now:

--------------Bendik------------------
Bloom--Hagglund--Henry--Warner
---------Bradley-------------------
Oduro---Bekker/Lovitz--Lovitz/Jackson
------------Gilberto----------------
----------Dike-------------------

[Jack]

Not to derail the intent here (I posted we should switch to 4-3-1-2 last night) .... but a lot depends on when/whether Creavalle and Morrow are available.

Without mobile, quality fullbacks any move to a formation like this won't work.

No doubt. I'm just hoping we can have a discussion of the pros and cons of what we've done and what we could do that isn't scattered across five threads. We have many posters here who always make interesting, intelligent posts about tactics and they sometimes get lost in the torrent of rage during a loss or the latest "shit on player X" thread.

[Initial B]

I think that TFC has the pieces to play a 4-3-3. Warner-Bradley-Osorio would make a good midfield trio clogging up the centre with short, precise passes. Dike-Moore could make a good target forward tandem, and using Jackson-Oduro as a speedy winger on one side and Gilberto-Defoe as a creative poacher on the other wing. The backline... well, that's another story.

[OgtheDim]

We had the best solution early in the season, when we were winning games: play Bradley mostly back and a creative mid beside him mostly going forward, preferably Osorio, but Bekker or even Lovitz would do in a pinch.

Why? Because Bradley's strongest skillsets, his world-class skillsets, are closing down the ball and reading the play early to close down passing avenues.

He's a better stopper than he is going forward; ....

I'm very scepticle of that.


http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/4186/Show/-Toronto-FC

Seems to indicate he's pretty much a two way demon.

[jloome]

I'm very scepticle of that.


http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/4186/Show/-Toronto-FC

Seems to indicate he's pretty much a two way demon.

Did you actually look at his rating score on that page? 6.93, for a guy who came to us from Roma and over the first half-dozen games dominated the pitch? That's a good sign of how he's declined.

Mind you, any site that ranks Warner as a 7.11 is cause for significant skepticism.


Anyway, that link shows him to be our 7th most effective player as a two-way, which supports my argument. There's no way Michael Bradley should be our seventh ranked player, and if you think he would be if he was just playing as our anchor, I respectfully disagree.

[OgtheDim]

His passing efficiency if placed as an achor would be a waste.

And, more to the point, quite a few people have indicated he wasn't a DM when he played for Roma.

[ag futbol]

We just need a real DM in the offseason. Bradley goes after the play often enough where it leaves space in behind.

It is difficult to determine how to best use him though. Funny how they're all midfielders on paper but there are a 1000 different ways to describe how we'd like them to play.

[ensco]

SKC, RSL (and Seattle and Portland) play a lot of 4-3-3, and it's no coincidence that they score a lot. It's the best attacking formation there is.

[jloome]

His passing efficiency if placed as an achor would be a waste.

And, more to the point, quite a few people have indicated he wasn't a DM when he played for Roma.

I saw him play for Roma and he wasn't an out and out anchor, but he was a central midfielder who linked up play and played both offense and defense. But he played more of the latter than the former.

He has no assists and has contributed to fewer points being created than any other starter. Again, go back to the Seattle game, where he spent most of the game playing behind Osorio. I'm not saying he should always be rooted in our end spraying outlet balls, but we need someone who can consistently disrupt our opposition and turn the play around quickly, and the only person we have who fits that bill is Michael Bradley.

[Blizzard]

I saw him play for Roma and he wasn't an out and out anchor, but he was a central midfielder who linked up play and played both offense and defense. But he played more of the latter than the former.

He has no assists and has contributed to fewer points being created than any other starter. Again, go back to the Seattle game, where he spent most of the game playing behind Osorio. I'm not saying he should always be rooted in our end spraying outlet balls, but we need someone who can consistently disrupt our opposition and turn the play around quickly, and the only person we have who fits that bill is Michael Bradley.

He is a box to box MF. Build the MF around Bradley. Stop trying to fit him into some sort of pre-existing format. Let his play his game!

[jloome]

He is a box to box MF. Build the MF around Bradley. Stop trying to fit him into some sort of pre-existing format. Let his play his game!

If we play him as a box-to-box, we need another beside him, or we're left without enough cover and no way to break up teams on the counter.

[notthesun]

He has no assists and has contributed to fewer points being created than any other starter.

Could you clarify this? If you mean contributing to goals scored, he actually does have one assist (would have more if our finishing wasn't so woeful), but moreover I can think of a pretty healthy number of goals he had a hand in creating off the top of my head. If you mean contributing to actual points in the standings I'm not sure how you could judge that relative to other players.

[ensco]

I saw him play for Roma and he wasn't an out and out anchor, but he was a central midfielder who linked up play and played both offense and defense. But he played more of the latter than the former.


I've got it! He just needs to be paired with De Rossi and we're all set.

[Jack]

I've got it! He just needs to be paired with De Rossi and we're all set.
Good call. g:D

[jloome]

I've got it! He just needs to be paired with De Rossi and we're all set.

LOL sort of my point. Collin Warner is no de Rossi.

He he has always thrived when he's had more or less of either going forward or staying back. Hell, he scored eighteen goals in the Dutch eredivisie one season, so he can go forward. But he'd be more effective as our anchor.

[jloome]

Could you clarify this? If you mean contributing to goals scored, he actually does have one assist (would have more if our finishing wasn't so woeful), but moreover I can think of a pretty healthy number of goals he had a hand in creating off the top of my head. If you mean contributing to actual points in the standings I'm not sure how you could judge that relative to other players.

Im just talking goals and assists. People keep suggesting he should be our offensive catalyst but he has next to nothing to show for that role.

[Kingvikingstad]

He is a box to box MF. Build the MF around Bradley. Stop trying to fit him into some sort of pre-existing format. Let his play his game!

While Bradley is clearly an excellent player and seems to be tactically sound, he does need a defined role. Without the necessary cover behind him he's not gonna join the attack. He's going to continue to drop level with the defensive line to pick up the ball because otherwise he's not getting it and I'm sure that frustrates him. As a result, he rovers around with no real purpose and just works to facilitate the offense out of basically the CB position, which I don't have to tell you is a big problem.

I think there's a couple ways to fix it. Either move Bradley up the pitch to an AM role, which isn't ideal but in the MLS I'm sure he could do the job for us. This would require us to have a designated anchor man which would have to be either Orr or Warner, neither of which are ideal. Option 2 is we can drop Bradley to the anchor role for the rest of the season and ensure he protects the back four. This would move Warner to the bench as Bradley could play the role of two DMs on his own, and open up more attacking options. Currently, he's in between these two roles and scared of moving forward because he doesn't trust Warner or get the ball when he wants it and it just isn't working.

With that said, the more I think about it, the more I'd like to see:

---Moore-Dike---
-----Gilberto-----
Osorio-----Lovitz
-----Bradley----

I think this lineup puts us in the best position moving forward.

Dike plays as a TM and holds the ball up. Gilberto is good at running at defenders and likely creates more than any other player on our team. Moore is a solid poacher that can hold up the ball a bit. I think this setup will give us a greater ability to possess the ball. Osorio and Lovitz can attack from the wings with support from Gilberto. Bradley has a defined role and can link with Gilberto. Bradley can help with the organization at the back and cover some of the mistakes and spread the ball to the wings or to Dike. Ideally we'd have some overlap play from the FBs but beggars can't be choosers.

This likely gives us the most options for attacking play, and if we're not going to make the playoffs I'd rather it be with us trying to attack. The other positive function of this setup is that you can slot Defoe right into Moore's spot if/when he returns.

[jloome]

While Bradley is clearly an excellent player and seems to be tactically sound, he does need a defined role. Without the necessary cover behind him he's not gonna join the attack. He's going to continue to drop level with the defensive line to pick up the ball because otherwise he's not getting it and I'm sure that frustrates him. As a result, he rovers around with no real purpose and just works to facilitate the offense out of basically the CB position, which I don't have to tell you is a big problem.

I think there's a couple ways to fix it. Either move Bradley up the pitch to an AM role, which isn't ideal but in the MLS I'm sure he could do the job for us. This would require us to have a designated anchor man which would have to be either Orr or Warner, neither of which are ideal. Option 2 is we can drop Bradley to the anchor role for the rest of the season and ensure he protects the back four. This would move Warner to the bench as Bradley could play the role of two DMs on his own, and open up more attacking options. Currently, he's in between these two roles and scared of moving forward because he doesn't trust Warner or get the ball when he wants it and it just isn't working.

With that said, the more I think about it, the more I'd like to see:

---Moore-Dike---
-----Gilberto-----
Osorio-----Lovitz
-----Bradley----

I think this lineup puts us in the best position moving forward.

Dike plays as a TM and holds the ball up. Gilberto is good at running at defenders and likely creates more than any other player on our team. Moore is a solid poacher that can hold up the ball a bit. I think this setup will give us a greater ability to possess the ball. Osorio and Lovitz can attack from the wings with support from Gilberto. Bradley has a defined role and can link with Gilberto. Bradley can help with the organization at the back and cover some of the mistakes and spread the ball to the wings or to Dike. Ideally we'd have some overlap play from the FBs but beggars can't be choosers.

This likely gives us the most options for attacking play, and if we're not going to make the playoffs I'd rather it be with us trying to attack. The other positive function of this setup is that you can slot Defoe right into Moore's spot if/when he returns.

I like that, although I wonder how much defense we'll get out of Gilberto, as he'll have to track well back occasionally in this shape.

[Kingvikingstad]

I like that, although I wonder how much defense we'll get out of Gilberto, as he'll have to track well back occasionally in this shape.

I'm with you, though I think Gilberto (injuries aside) is up to it with his work rate. He often tracks back anyways because he seems to enjoy being involved in the play. Obviously it's not ideal, but we don't really have an AM on the roster and Gilberto is the closest to fitting the bill.

The other option is putting Osorio there, having Gilberto start in Moore's place and bringing on Jackson or Oduro who I don't really rate. I think Gilberto-Osorio-Moore > Osorio-Gilberto-Jackson/Oduro. That's my thinking.

[MightyDM]

The weakness is that is a very narrow lineup.
Separately, we miss Jacksons's defensive abilities. He would have been good cover for Morgan last game - particularly on the goal. If you look back, our decline starts not just with the world cup but with moving Oso to a wide position in lieu of Jackson. I know his attacking play drives people crazy, but he was very solid defensively from that position.
I also rate Bekker a bit higher than some with Bradley lying back. (This is hindsight though)
Serpareately,

[trane]

I saw him play for Roma and he wasn't an out and out anchor, but he was a central midfielder who linked up play and played both offense and defense. But he played more of the latter than the former.

He has no assists and has contributed to fewer points being created than any other starter. Again, go back to the Seattle game, where he spent most of the game playing behind Osorio. I'm not saying he should always be rooted in our end spraying outlet balls, but we need someone who can consistently disrupt our opposition and turn the play around quickly, and the only person we have who fits that bill is Michael Bradley.

I agree with you, yes in Roma he was not the CDM, but they have De Rossi (and then Stoortman who can also play that role) one of the best CDMs in the world. Bradley as the CMD/Regista would make this team click as he has the vision to run the offense, like Pirlo. I believe at Udinese he played that role, it is there where he caught my eye, and he got the nickname the General.

[trane]

^Altenatevely you can have him play as a CM, ahead of two DMs, Warner and Orr for my money. But he needs to sit bit back were he can see the play and defened, and then launch attacks.

But again for me my first choice for him on this team is CDM. Even at Milan Pirlo was often played between two DM types, Amborsini and Gattuso, who played ahead of him as what in Italy we call half wings, but would be playing box to box, defending first and then supporting the attack, freeing up Pirlo to operate the offense from deep. You could do that as well.

[trane]

Good call. g:D

While we are at it, we can add Strootman, Naingolan, and Pranjic.

[OfficeGuy]

He is a box to box MF. Build the MF around Bradley. Stop trying to fit him into some sort of pre-existing format. Let his play his game!

THIS ^ x2

Build the midfield around him - he seems out of sorts as everyone runs around, they should be supporting his ball movement more

[OgtheDim]

I'm coming to the conclusion that we need a manager who knows what Bradley is and builds a team around that. Nelsen had no clue what to do with him, and freely admitted so. Vanney...we'll see.

Otherwise, I'm thinking maybe we put in a call to Norway in late October.

[MikeM]

There are two season-ending problems for this team as it is right now IMO.

The CBs are uncovered, meaning there is a huge gap between our midfield and the backline. And we have a lot of trouble building from the back or transitioning to offence from the back.

Both those problems are solved with Bradley at DM. In the MLS, Bradley can play DM fine. He can play box-to-box fine. If you can find me someone other than Bradley to play as a DM, then I have no problem with Bradley playing box-to-box because he has great work rate. Right now, I don't see anyone on the roster that can perform this role though.

At the very least, however, our tactics have to evolve to a point where we have 6 or 7 lines of play. That is how you stay compact and cover the field. You can look at any great coach you want. Name one. I guarantee you their main goal is to cover the entire pitch.

Right now, our fullbacks don't supply any width or provide any support in attack. As a result, both our CMs (Warner and Bradley) find themselves moving forward to supply support to our attackers. When they both move up, there is a comical amount of space left in front of our defence.


LW-----------------RW
-----CM
-----------------CM
LB--------DM---------RB
------CB-------CB

That is how you provide support and cover at the same time.

Not like this:

LM----CM----CM-----RM




LB----CB----CB-----RB

Maybe Bradley and Warner are supposed to be "taking turns" playing as a DM when the other is advanced. But it's not happening. It's not even close.

[pdubs]

I posted this in this saturday's Philly game thread. I like the overall feel of the 4-3-3.

-Back 4 is what it is.. depleted.
-Midfield 3 of Warner, Bradley, Jackson. I know the Warner and Bradley midfield hasn't worked out but adding Jackson's defensive ability in there "may" help.
-Forward 3 has speed and pace. Gilberto in the winger position could be interesting. We know he has the defensive workrate, and with the speedy Oduro on the opposite and big 220lbs Dike in the middle could result into something significant. If anything Philly will have to change and evolve from last game cause it would be a completely different look. I am worried about Oduro's defensive work rate but his speed helps a lot.
-Moore could the target man instead of Dike. Dero/Lovitz could sub in on the wing potentially.


------------------Bendik-----------------------
--Creaville---Hagglund--Henry----Bloom---
------Warner---Bradley-----Jackson---
--------Oduro---Dike---Gilberto------

when healthy could turn into:

------------------Bendik-----------------------
--Bloom---Caldwell--Henry----Morrow---
------Creaville---Bradley-----Osorio---
--------Oduro---Dike---Gilberto------

Moore in both of these set-ups is also interesting. I like Dike's size and speed but Moore is a good hold up player and his outlet passing is very good. Could see spring Oduro and Gilberto a lot.

[Carts]

I posted this in this saturday's Philly game thread. I like the overall feel of the 4-3-3.

-Back 4 is what it is.. depleted.
-Midfield 3 of Warner, Bradley, Jackson. I know the Warner and Bradley midfield hasn't worked out but adding Jackson's defensive ability in there "may" help.
-Forward 3 has speed and pace. Gilberto in the winger position could be interesting. We know he has the defensive workrate, and with the speedy Oduro on the opposite and big 220lbs Dike in the middle could result into something significant. If anything Philly will have to change and evolve from last game cause it would be a completely different look. I am worried about Oduro's defensive work rate but his speed helps a lot.
-Moore could the target man instead of Dike. Dero/Lovitz could sub in on the wing potentially.


------------------Bendik-----------------------
--Creaville---Hagglund--Henry----Bloom---
------Warner---Bradley-----Jackson---
--------Oduro---Dike---Gilberto------

when healthy could turn into:

------------------Bendik-----------------------
--Bloom---Caldwell--Henry----Morrow---
------Creaville---Bradley-----Osorio---
--------Oduro---Dike---Gilberto------

Moore in both of these set-ups is also interesting. I like Dike's size and speed but Moore is a good hold up player and his outlet passing is very good. Could see spring Oduro and Gilberto a lot.




I gotta say - I like this...

Like you mention, back-4 is what it is - we have power, speed, and some finish up front so use them. Gilberto's work-rate (and speed), Oduro's speed, and Dike's muscle will make Philly adapt... Make them play OUR GAME, and not us playing to theirs...

Its our house, lets dictate the terms - I like this...

Like I said way back before the TFC/LA Dome CCL match - lets just come out, balls out, and bring it like the HAMMERS OF HELL and see what happens! We did it that match, grabbed a 2-nil lead (only held for a draw, but Philly ain't that LA squad)...

Carts...

[PopePouri]

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/kristian_jack/?id=461134

Creavalle is back and he's a natural defensive mid plus Vanney has a full week of training. It's time to go 4-3-3, drop Warner and play Bekker at a no. 10.

[Jack]

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/kristian_jack/?id=461134

Creavalle is back and he's a natural defensive mid plus Vanney has a full week of training. It's time to go 4-3-3, drop Warner and play Bekker at a no. 10.
I'm going to assume you meant Bradley at 10. I'd like to try him there, but I don't think he's a permanent solution there. As others have said, he'd be great as the more offensive half of a double pivot behind a true 10 or, if we play a three man mid with one true DM, one box-to-box (Bradley) and one 10-ish midfielder (I think Osorio would be suited to that role). For the short term, put Warner (or even Bekker) and Creavalle behind Bradley, Oduro back out on the wing and play Gilberto up top with Moore, but give Gilberto the left side to roam and cut in, or have Lovitz out there (I don't know who else we could really use with our current situation--DeRo?).

[PopePouri]

I'm going to assume you meant Bradley at 10. I'd like to try him there, but I don't think he's a permanent solution there. As others have said, he'd be great as the more offensive half of a double pivot behind a true 10 or, if we play a three man mid with one true DM, one box-to-box (Bradley) and one 10-ish midfielder (I think Osorio would be suited to that role). For the short term, put Warner (or even Bekker) and Creavalle behind Bradley, Oduro back out on the wing and play Gilberto up top with Moore, but give Gilberto the left side to roam and cut in, or have Lovitz out there (I don't know who else we could really use with our current situation--DeRo?).

If the Philly and NE games are any indication, we need to figure out a way to break down teams who sit deep. We can only do that by adding more creative players like Bekker to play that 10-ish role that you mentioned. If Bradley plays no. 10, he's going to drop deep anyways.

Something like this:

---------------------------Creavalle----------------------------
----------------------------------Bradley-----------------------
--------------------Bekker/Oso---------------------------------
-----Oduro/Jackson--------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------Gilberto/DeRo---------
-------------------------Moore/Dike----------------------------

[Jack]

Bekker is very slow with his decisions on the ball. I don't know if he could handle being a string-puller.

[OgtheDim]

Bekker only passed the ball back once on Saturday. It was one of the little points in that game that gave me hope.

[trane]

^ Yeah, I was looking at Bekker very carefully on Saturday, it is like he knows what is happening, but he is always a step behind in reacting, defensively or going forward, like he is processing the information just half a second too slow.

[PopePouri]

Bekker is very slow with his decisions on the ball. I don't know if he could handle being a string-puller.

He's capable of stuff like this though:

http://youtu.be/mIaG9X6Qq44?t=2m36s

He was drafted to be a no. 10 and our unbeaten streak in May had a midfield 2 of Bekker and Orr. Bekker was the more advanced of the two of course.

He's not without his flaws, one being his workrate.

[trane]

^ From looking at him all game, I think his work rate is a result of him being behind play all the time. He cannot get in for a pass or a tackle because he is always a step behind.

[PopePouri]

^ From looking at him all game, I think his work rate is a result of him being behind play all the time. He cannot get in for a pass or a tackle because he is always a step behind.

All I'm saying is to try playing him in the position he played most of his youth career and for the CMNT.

[Jack]

He's capable of stuff like this though:

http://youtu.be/mIaG9X6Qq44?t=2m36s

He was drafted to be a no. 10 and our unbeaten streak in May had a midfield 2 of Bekker and Orr. Bekker was the more advanced of the two of course.

He's not without his flaws, one being his workrate.

It was a great ball, no doubt. He was given time and space as the defence stood off him and that's when he can do things like that. But if he's pressured, he seems to be useless. Maybe, if he gets some more match time, his tempo will improve, but I haven't seen any indications of that.


^ From looking at him all game, I think his work rate is a result of him being behind play all the time. He cannot get in for a pass or a tackle because he is always a step behind.
This could be true.

All I'm saying is to try playing him in the position he played most of his youth career and for the CMNT.
Anything to shake things up might help.

[notthesun]

Bekker's best ever game was the final game of last season when we beat Montreal 1-0. Montreal had begun imploding at that point, they were awful that day and had zero pressure in midfield so Bekker could calmly control every ball and pick his pass. Which he is quite good at... in exactly those circumstances.

It's a tricky thing with him... if he never adjusts well to playing under pressure then it becomes a question of what system to use which will free him up as much as possible, thus making him effective. If you don't outright give up on him, that is.

[OgtheDim]

You could build a really good USL Pro team around a Bekker. Not sure that's what we want to do in MLS when we have Bradley.

To me, if we get a system working that releases Bradley, Bekker would be the Bradley sub.

[PopePouri]

Bekker's best ever game was the final game of last season when we beat Montreal 1-0. Montreal had begun imploding at that point, they were awful that day and had zero pressure in midfield so Bekker could calmly control every ball and pick his pass. Which he is quite good at... in exactly those circumstances.

It's a tricky thing with him... if he never adjusts well to playing under pressure then it becomes a question of what system to use which will free him up as much as possible, thus making him effective. If you don't outright give up on him, that is.

I guess the question would be if Bekker was traded to SKC, would he be better for them than for us? I think he would.

[jabbronies]

Bekker needs time to develop and bulk up. Send him to the Hammers and feed him some southern comfort food.

Not ever answer is "get rid of 'em"

[pdubs]

Bekker needs time to develop and bulk up. Send him to the Hammers and feed him some southern comfort food.

Not ever answer is "get rid of 'em"

I agree. He needs a full season playing every game at a lower level. He just turned 24 tho.... I know College players develop later but idk.

[ag futbol]

It was a great ball, no doubt. He was given time and space as the defence stood off him and that's when he can do things like that. But if he's pressured, he seems to be useless. Maybe, if he gets some more match time, his tempo will improve, but I haven't seen any indications of that.


This could be true.

Anything to shake things up might help.i think the idea should be to have enough credible options out there so te team can't readily focus on or close down any one player.

I think that's why Bekker had a good 45 on Saturday: the choice for Phily was either pin down on Bradley and leave Bekker open or play a balanced game while not leaving anyone open.

You could see they went back and forth trying to figure it out, but overall they had a much harder time than when Warner was out there who was largely useles on both sides of the ball.

[trane]

Bekker needs time to develop and bulk up. Send him to the Hammers and feed him some southern comfort food.

Not ever answer is "get rid of 'em"

That's kind of my feeling, bulk up maybe get better fitness/pace. I would be for trying that.

[trane]

i think the idea should be to have enough credible options out there so te team can't readily focus on or close down any one player.

I think that's why Bekker had a good 45 on Saturday: the choice for Phily was either pin down on Bradley and leave Bekker open or play a balanced game while not leaving anyone open.

You could see they went back and forth trying to figure it out, but overall they had a much harder time than when Warner was out there who was largely useles on both sides of the ball.

Wow, we saw different games, Warner did not have a great game perhaps, but he is a much better player, particularly in his role.

[Kingvikingstad]

i think the idea should be to have enough credible options out there so te team can't readily focus on or close down any one player.

I think that's why Bekker had a good 45 on Saturday: the choice for Phily was either pin down on Bradley and leave Bekker open or play a balanced game while not leaving anyone open.

You could see they went back and forth trying to figure it out, but overall they had a much harder time than when Warner was out there who was largely useles on both sides of the ball.

I agree with you. Bekker's ability to make sharp passes that open up the defense and spray the ball all over the field is very useful. I think having him on the field with Bradley maybe exposes us at the back, but we can't win regardless if we can't score a goal. I think I'd prefer Osorio of the two, but with him injured I am perfectly okay with Bekker playing the 10ish role as it was put and Crevalle playing DM with Bradley as a BTBCM. That's our best chance of freeing Bradley and creating moving forward with the roster we have today.

[jloome]

TRANE, I know you're going to hate me saying this....(and many others too, but hey...I'm nothing but frank)...

Bekker has major talent. He has the technical ability with the ball to open up defenses, be a dead ball specialist. He reads the field at a higher level than most of our players.

The problem is, like Darren Mattocks, his advantages don't cancel out his shortcomings. His shortcomings CAN be overcome by coaching, but it's not happening. Whether, like Mattocks, that's an attitudinal issue or not, I don't know, as we don't have enough inside info and he hasn't melted down publicly like Mattocks on several occasions.

But to me, Bekker is worth keeping. If we send him to KC, Vermes will do what good coaches ACTUALLY do, which is get the best out of both the warrior-mentality players and the personalities. He'll slot him into the midfield, have him play a limited role in a technical system, probably backing up Feilhaber and Zussi, and within two years he'll be a top MLS starter. That's how it works when you give up on players with potential.

Again, I have to wonder why it is so many of our "sub par" players have excelled elsehwere -- but not really: IT'S THE FUCKING COACHING.

Sorry, that was loud. But so many of the debates on here about player caliber and performance fail to account for how technical and tactical football is these days, and the fact that we've never had an experienced head coach. The one guy who was a player developer -- so noted as such in England that he is in high demand -- was Chris Cummins.

He also happens to be the only coach we've ever had who had an above-.500 record.

Anyone ever wonder if the reason they collapsed in that last game was that he'd already told them he was gone, because someone at the club lied to him about getting his wife a work permit?

IT'S THE COACH. I don't care what tactical approach we take; until we hire the right guy, we're hosed. I'm not saying it's just an experience matter, only that that is a commonality that indicates one of the core issues, the quality of coaching. WE've taken chance after chance on rookies without luck.

Will Vanney be different? Fuck, I hope so. But Bekker and players like him would show better from better coaching. Our past roster castoffs clearly indicate that.

[jloome]

Wow, we saw different games, Warner did not have a great game perhaps, but he is a much better player, particularly in his role.

I think he has a higher workrate. I don't think he's a much better player. Bekker has a much higher upside.

[trane]

^ I do not hate Bekker or think he has not potential, you may be right. All I am saying, is that he seems a step behind all the time, and therefore is rendered in effective. You could be right, with the right coach, and the right training maybe he become a great CM. I hope so, he plays for TFC and he is Canadian. I would love to see it. He seems to see the game, but seem a step to slow or thinks to slow to react in time.

[trane]

Oh, and I completely agree with you on coaching. I have been clear on this point, since the start, and yes it has been a continuous failure, through out the years. I would argue the biggest.

[Yohan]

^ I do not hate Bekker or think he has not potential, you may be right. All I am saying, is that he seems a step behind all the time, and therefore is rendered in effective. You could be right, with the right coach, and the right training maybe he become a great CM. I hope so, he plays for TFC and he is Canadian. I would love to see it. He seems to see the game, but seem a step to slow or thinks to slow to react in time.
Bekker has MLS level technical ability. His problem is that he can't handle pressure and lacks composure when he has to make a decision quick. Bekker should have been in Wilmington this season.

[jloome]

Bekker has MLS level technical ability. His problem is that he can't handle pressure and lacks composure when he has to make a decision quick. Bekker should have been in Wilmington this season.

Spot on. Playing at USL and realizing that even at a second- or third-division level he has to play with urgency could really help him. Lower level English or French leagues would work too, maybe Portuguese second division with Hamilton.

[burlington Red]

I am not quite sure where he is best position is either

[jloome]

I am not quite sure where he is best position is either

The only position he seems to know how to play naturally is in the hole; but he has the ball skills to play wide. Might be a bit speed limited, like Rey, but he can make up for it with vision, if he works on his athleticism.

I want to see Wiedeman a bit more. He's put on a lot of muscle this year and his work rate, when we've seen him, has been huge. He's a decent poacher.

[Yohan]

The only position he seems to know how to play naturally is in the hole; but he has the ball skills to play wide. Might be a bit speed limited, like Rey, but he can make up for it with vision, if he works on his athleticism.
In a way, I think Bekker might be better suited for wide midfielder than Osorio. He can bomb in crosses from wide a la Beckham. Actually, Bekker reminds me a lot of Brad Davis, minus the work rate and football IQ. Now TFC doesn't have a big striker who'll get on those crosses except broken Dike, but that's another story. Bekker doesn't have to dribble, as long as he develops the ability to create half a yard of space to pump in a cross. He can do the pinch in from wide into the centre thing better than Osorio, simply because TFC needs Osorio to run at defenders from the centre. And Bekker is strong with both feet, which is a luxury in MLS.


I want to see Wiedeman a bit more. He's put on a lot of muscle this year and his work rate, when we've seen him, has been huge. He's a decent poacher.
Weedman needed a stint in Wilmington just as much as Bekker. Yeah he's frustrating as hell, but his ability to be at the right place at the right time is probably just as good as any in TFC. It's just as poachers, without service, are useless in a game and easily marked out. He needed consistent game mins and you can't develop that consistency in finishing without game mins. I think Wilmington could have had same effect as it did for Dom Dwyer during his USL stint with Orlando.

[PopePouri]

Bekker playing in the hole for Canada. Causing problems.

[Jack]

Today's tactics were decent. Osorio pushing up with Bradley in a clearly defined deep-lying role was solid. He gave our defence a great outlet and Bradley had options when he got the ball, as Osorio was showing for him and was on his game.

[jabbronies]

Keeping in mind we did play the shittiest team in the league.

Oso/Bradley patrolling the middle has worked 9/10 this season. I'm not sure why we never stuck with it more often.
Overall - the game was boring as fuck! Against a better team and we don't win by that score/

[Jack]

Keeping in mind we did play the shittiest team in the league.

Oso/Bradley patrolling the middle has worked 9/10 this season. I'm not sure why we never stuck with it more often.
Overall - the game was boring as fuck! Against a better team and we don't win by that score/
No doubt, but it was just what we needed to get players into a better mindset.

[Kaz]

Keeping in mind we did play the shittiest team in the league. Oso/Bradley patrolling the middle has worked 9/10 this season. I'm not sure why we never stuck with it more often. Overall - the game was boring as fuck! Against a better team and we don't win by that score/


This is the thing. Nelsen is the reason. The more we see the team working on the attack and building the play, the more I realize that Nelsen nor his team (or he didn't listen) had any idea what to do after you ball hit the half line.

Nelsen was a defender he knew the defender role, but didn't know enough about being an attacker. Nelsen as an assistant coach likely would grow into a decent coach, with time.

The moment we got Warner.. Nelsen just started playing defensive football, and that is when things when to the crapper. Worse as I said early on, other teams were able to figure out what Nelsen did, defend against it, and shut his play style down. Nelsen didn't have the ability and/or the will to change things enough to fix it. You need a coach that is working new set piece plays, you need a coach that sees that a team is shutting down the midfield and has the ability to reform the players and change it up.. effectively.

I don't know if Vanny is the guy but there is a glimmer of hope.

Next week will be the big test. A win next week and we may have a chance to make the playoffs.

[JuliquE]

Overall - the game was boring as fuck! Against a better team and we don't win by that score/
WhuhBUNG?! I.. I don't understand this; the score could have easily been 6-2, in our favour. Sure, it wasn't an all-out onslaught, but it was baby-steps in the right direction; a little tentative, at times, but, for the most part, dominant, and we really should have run up the scoreline, given the quality of chances.

"Boring as fuck" couldn't be further from how I'd describe this game.

[Daveisonfire]

Keeping in mind we did play the shittiest team in the league.

Oso/Bradley patrolling the middle has worked 9/10 this season. I'm not sure why we never stuck with it more often.
Overall - the game was boring as fuck! Against a better team and we don't win by that score/

I think the thinking was that Warner added missing forward midfield drive (ie: Essien or Ramires type penetration) when Bradley drops deep. Oso shows well for the ball and has good technical ability as far as ball retention, but he lacks this physical cutting drive. This is why we saw him play wide. He would show, retain, move inside and spot a pass.

He's not as desperate as Bekker in this regard though. If Bekker picked up these qualities, with his passing abilities, he would not be unlike a Mezut Ozil or Luka Modric (Yes, the very cheap version of). I tend to think his ceiling is limited in that area unfortunately.

[hulkrogan]

I think Bradley plays way better deep. The notion of him needed to move up seems to just come because he was a guy playing in Serie A, so he should suddenly turn into an AM powerhouse in MLS. Him sitting deep with Osorio playing ahead of him is using our assets to their strengths. Having only one of Jackson or Odurro on the wings makes me happy too. They play too similar of a game and have similar weaknesses. Lovitz looks way better in tight possession, although Jackson had a great showing today. I like having one of DeRo or Lovitz on the wing, or maybe Moore when Defoe is back.

[OgtheDim]

We were playing a team with no real forward or AM threat. Bradley as DLP works in that. He won't work on Saturday playing in that role against the Portland 433.

Tactics are situational. Without Jackson, I'd like to see us go with the 4132;neither Morrow nor Crevalle have the discipline to be a DMC but that's what we got so best to put it out there.

Will be a good test of Vanney's tactical abilities.

[shorty]

I think Bradley plays way better deep. The notion of him needed to move up seems to just come because he was a guy playing in Serie A, so he should suddenly turn into an AM powerhouse in MLS. Him sitting deep with Osorio playing ahead of him is using our assets to their strengths. Having only one of Jackson or Odurro on the wings makes me happy too. They play too similar of a game and have similar weaknesses. Lovitz looks way better in tight possession, although Jackson had a great showing today. I like having one of DeRo or Lovitz on the wing, or maybe Moore when Defoe is back.

Not exactly a tactical comment, but I did my best to work out what TFC's record is when an outfield player starts. I hope this is accurate. It involved going through Matchcenter lineups for each game, one by one, and filling out the spreadsheet. It doesn't take into account where a player started (sometimes Orr was in the midfield and sometimes on the back line, for example) or combinations of players, but it's interesting nonetheless.

You'll notice that of all the outfield players who have started more than 10 games, Osorio is well ahead of everyone (9-4-4 record, TFC takes 61% of points when he starts). Some other thought-provoking results.... Have fun!



PLAYER
GS
W
L
D
POSSIBLE PTS
ACTUAL PTS
% POINTS


Alvaro Rey
6
4
1
1
18
13
72%


Jonathan Osorio (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/jonathan-osorio)
17
9
4
4
51
31
61%


Warren Creavalle (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/warren-creavalle)
4
2
1
1
12
7
58%


Kyle Bekker (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/kyle-bekker)
9
4
3
2
27
14
52%


Jermain Defoe (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/jermain-defoe)
15
6
4
5
45
23
51%


Dwayne De Rosario (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/dwayne-de-rosario)
4
2
2
0
12
6
50%


Daniel Lovitz (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/daniel-lovitz)
2
1
1
0
6
3
50%


Steven Caldwell (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/steven-caldwell)
15
6
5
4
45
22
49%


Justin Morrow (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/justin-morrow)
24
9
8
7
72
34
47%


Doneil Henry (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/doneil-henry)
17
7
7
3
51
24
47%


Jackson Goncalves (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/jackson)
18
7
7
4
54
25
46%


Nick Hagglund (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/nick-hagglund)
19
7
7
5
57
26
46%


Mark Bloom (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/mark-bloom)
22
8
8
6
66
30
45%


Luke Moore (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/luke-moore)
17
6
7
4
51
22
43%


Gilberto Oliveira Souza Junior (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/gilberto-oliveira-souza-junior)
18
6
8
4
54
22
41%


Michael Bradley (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/michael-bradley)
20
6
10
4
60
22
37%


Collen Warner (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/collen-warner)
16
4
7
5
48
17
35%


Dominic Oduro (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/dominic-oduro)
14
3
6
5
42
14
33%


Bradley Orr (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/bradley-orr)
14
3
8
3
42
12
29%


Ashtone Morgan (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/ashtone-morgan)
2
0
1
1
6
1
17%


Jeremy Hall (http://www.torontofc.ca/players/jeremy-hall)
2
0
2
0
6
0
0%


Issey N-F
3
0
3
0
9
0
0%

[hulkrogan]

^Great post. Very interesting to see. Thanks for taking the time to put that together.

[Daveisonfire]

I think the thinking was that Warner added missing forward midfield drive (ie: Essien or Ramires type penetration) when Bradley drops deep. Oso shows well for the ball and has good technical ability as far as ball retention, but he lacks this physical cutting drive. This is why we saw him play wide. He would show, retain, move inside and spot a pass.

He's not as desperate as Bekker in this regard though. If Bekker picked up these qualities, with his passing abilities, he would not be unlike a Mezut Ozil or Luka Modric (Yes, the very cheap version of). I tend to think his ceiling is limited in that area unfortunately.

I have to say that Kyle Bekker was very positive when he came on. You can tell Vanney has had a good influence on him. I'm excited to see if he can keep it up.

[OgtheDim]

Bekker doesn't get stuck in like Osorio does but the blond haired one has at least solved his "must pass backwards" fixation from earlier this season. Helps coming in later so he doesn't have time to think like was going on while Bradley was in Brazil.

****

I'm trying to figure out if we are playing a 4-1-3-2 or a 4-1-3-1-1. Moore seems to be dropping off a lot.

[Kingvikingstad]

I really think some of Bekker's technical abilities are at, or near the top of the league. His ball striking, ability to switch play and in-swing curve are likely the best on the team, yet as we know, the problem is that his fitness, strength and ability to turn on the ball is likely the worst. This is why Nelsen playing him as a DM didn't and doesn't really make sense, especially when you're set up to play on the counter ala Nelsen's tactics. It was the epitome of Nelsen's tenure for me, sticking a square peg into a round hole over, and over, and over again.

To date on a professional level, for me, Floro has got the best out of him so far. The good news is it seems Vanney will use him as more of an attacking presence as well. He needs to be playing up the pitch where his vision is useful and he can find pockets of space to turn into and pick out a pass. Hopefully that means he's depth for Osorio (and not Bradley) and is only a substitute that comes on late when the defense is tired so he has a bit more time on the ball; which is great because he's shown to be effective at that.

I think there's a situation where Bekker can be an good regista playing the Pirlo role, but not in MLS, as I think the league is too physical,high-pressing and tactical acuity of players isn't high enough.

To the shouts for Bekker to possibly play winger, I agree that his whipped crosses in would be delectable, but the problem I see is that the position requires some ingenuity on the ball, pace and workrate, to which he has very little. I think the experiment would get very frustrating, very fast.

All in all, I've been pleased with how Vanney has used Bekker and it shows to me that he has some idea of what he's trying to accomplish on the field with each position.

[FRANKIE65]

Agreed, he wasn't on for long, but, probably the best I have seen Bekker play. Passes were crisp, and, he had some fire in his boots!

[jabbronies]

Not exactly a tactical comment, but I did my best to work out what TFC's record is when an outfield player starts. I hope this is accurate. It involved going through Matchcenter lineups for each game, one by one, and filling out the spreadsheet. It doesn't take into account where a player started (sometimes Orr was in the midfield and sometimes on the back line, for example) or combinations of players, but it's interesting nonetheless.

You'll notice that of all the outfield players who have started more than 10 games, Osorio is well ahead of everyone (9-4-4 record, TFC takes 61% of points when he starts). Some other thought-provoking results.... Have fun!



PLAYER
GS
W
L
D
POSSIBLE PTS
ACTUAL PTS
% POINTS












Issey N-F
3
0
3
0
9
0
0%




Are you sure we never won when INF was playing?

[mowe]

Are you sure we never won when INF was playing?

He only started two league games for us (both losses) (http://www.mlssoccer.com/players/issey-nakajima-farran). I'm guessing 0 and 3 was a typo. But he did start both VCup games against Vancouver, with one win and one loss (winning on penalties in the latter).

[notthesun]

I know for a fact we beat Columbus 2-0 with Issey scoring the 2nd early in the season, but I'm guessing he came off the bench in that one.

[shorty]

Are you sure we never won when INF was playing?

Maybe they won or tied when INF subbed in. I was only counting records for players when they started.

I've been playing around with other "expected value" type calculations, on the premise that you would expect (if every player has an equal effect) that a player would average roughly the same pts per game for their starts as team pts per game. Of all the players with a bigger sample size than a couple of games, Osorio is the one who averages more than you would expect. Lots of possible factors, though, that are hard to control for in one season alone (who the opponents were, for example).

[ag futbol]

Bekker doesn't get stuck in like Osorio does but the blond haired one has at least solved his "must pass backwards" fixation from earlier this season. Helps coming in later so he doesn't have time to think like was going on while Bradley was in Brazil.

****

I'm trying to figure out if we are playing a 4-1-3-2 or a 4-1-3-1-1. Moore seems to be dropping off a lot.
Think part of the pass backwards problem was caused by our previous defensive rigidity. Not very many guys in position to receive a pass. The choices from other players is also problematic. A lot of these guys pass our central mids into some awful position.

You'd see Osorio waiving his arms and gesturing practically every game for guys to make simple triangles. His composure under pressure being better than Bekker's he was able to wait for things to develop a little longer.

[Jack]

It was nice to hear that Vanney spoke about needing to adjust to guys playing between the lines. We might actually see a DM in there against teams with dangerous guys in the hole.

[jloome]

It was nice to hear that Vanney spoke about needing to adjust to guys playing between the lines. We might actually see a DM in there against teams with dangerous guys in the hole.

Dominic Oduro might be more effective in the hole than wide against some teams. He's so fast, and he can beat a guy or two. His final ball isn't that great, but he has a couple of seasons where, playing inside, he scored double-digit goals. He's sort of the same player as Plata that way, minus the nice dink passes.

[Ajax TFC]

I would love to play a three man midfield of Bradley, Oso, and Bekker. Front three of Moore - Gilberto - Oduro.

[Yohan]

I would love to play a three man midfield of Bradley, Oso, and Bekker. Front three of Moore - Gilberto - Oduro.
and get overrun in the midfield. Moore Oduro and Bekker have poor work rate defensively

[Daveisonfire]

Whether by habit or design against RBNY, LA enjoyed working the right side of defense with Donovan and Keane both drifting into that area and Robbie Rogers coming forward on the overlap. Bloom is going to have a busy shift and we'll do well to bolster right midfield with one of Jackson or perhaps Colin Warner.

----------------Gilberto-----------
--------------------------------------
De Rosario-----------------Jackson
------Bradley---------Osorio-------
--------------Creavalle-------------
Morrow-Hagglund-Caldwell-Bloom

My plan would be to start Creavalle at DM and prepare the boys to stay compact to frustrate them centrally. DeRo, Gilberto, and Osorio should do enough to relieve pressure with their ball retention skills (look for freekicks, throw ins, corners, and be deliberate with them). 65 minutes in, Oduro comes on for DeRo with specific instructions to look for counter opportunities on the right side. Hopefully he can wreak havoc as he did against SKC early on.

If we can stay tight hopefully we nab something from a set piece or on the counter through a marauding Dominic Oduro.

[molenshtain]

Jackson's suspended, Warner might still be injured. If Defoe is fit we'll definitely see some variation of a 2 striker formation.

[Daveisonfire]

Jackson's suspended, Warner might still be injured. If Defoe is fit we'll definitely see some variation of a 2 striker formation.

Noted. If Warner isn't fit then Oduro slots in, but it's not ideal for me. Same with Defoe as a starter...I think LA will exploit the gaps needed to fit him into a balanced line up.

[Ajax TFC]

and get overrun in the midfield. Moore Oduro and Bekker have poor work rate defensively
I'll admit that we might be a bit exposed in the wide areas if Moore and Oduro don't track back. Maybe play Jackson instead of Oduro on the right.

Bekker doesn't run hard or get stuck in, but he does cut off passing lanes and has the ability to pressure. If he and Osorio can do that higher up the pitch and Bradley stays further back, we'll be able to control the center much better.

Also, FWIW I don't mean to play this formation against LA. Just a general statement that I would like to see that at some point in the future.

[MartinUtd]

Are we not expecting Defoe to feature yet?

[OgtheDim]

Crevalle hasn't shown the discipline to stay back as a DMC. Unfortunately, if we put him in as right side midfielder, the defensive weakness of Rogers as their LB doesn't get exposed. I think its Oduro on the right and Bradley in the hole.

We just don't set up well against these guys defensively.

On the other hand, their defence can be had.

[Daveisonfire]

Jackson's suspended, Warner might still be injured. If Defoe is fit we'll definitely see some variation of a 2 striker formation.

Sounds like Warner should be fit for Saturday. So that fits my line up.

I still think two forwards opens too many gaps for a dynamic LA attack. For me, Defoe only comes on if we need a goal after 60'.