I've HAD IT With Nelsen.....and I used to Be a Big Defender

[maninb]

Here's his response to putting on Jackson instead of a natural RB like Orr......"“We wanted to put Jackson in there. He’s been pretty good out there at times… Sometimes that right back can get left one-on-one, so we needed a bit of athleticism out there,???

AT TIMES?

he just cost you 3 points vs CHI and was BRUTAL in KC...when has he EVER been good at RB??? It's NOT his fault he's a shyte defender, that's not what you got him for....it's 100% YOUR FAULT you play people out of position...

I'm done....

[Chevy]

I have to agree with you on this. Very frustrating to see what should have been a simple change at the back botched so completely. Can't fault Jackson on this one - he did his best I'm sure but he's out of his element defending.

[ryan]

I never want to see Jackson at RB. He's not showing well at all, no idea what he could be doing in practice to warrant being top choice as a substitute.

[A Stick]

The athleticism comment is a red card offence and a direct taxi ride to the airport!

[MartinUtd]

Was Jackson a good RB in Dallas or something?

Maybe the "at times" comment refers to past expectations and is an acknowledgement that it didn't work out this time. Hopefully there is no next time.

Either way if we do get rid of Nelsen I hope it's while TL is still on the clock.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Was Jackson a good RB in Dallas or something?

Maybe the "at times" comment refers to past expectations and is an acknowledgement that it didn't work out this time. Hopefully there is no next time.

Either way if we do get rid of Nelsen I hope it's while TL is still on the clock.

Jackson played back everywhere he's been in the same way. A utility backup. This was a definite slight on Orr unless he's unfit.

[v00d00daddy]

Also found it strange that when Morrow went down we didn't have a guy like Morgan on the bench (where he'd been all season). Would have been better than moving Bloom to LB and then bringing in Jackson to RB.

I've never been a fan of Nelsen but I have my reasons that may not always be fair.

But when it comes to substitutions he's been awful since day one. Makes them late, picks the wrong guys for the wrong spots and often the subs are pointless.

I'd rather Jackson as a winger and moving Osorio in to the middle of the field. But what the hell do we know? LOL Even though many of us have coached as much as he had before TFC signed him. (not one second as a coach)

LOL

[Canary10]

Also found it strange that when Morrow went down we didn't have a guy like Morgan on the bench (where he'd been all season). Would have been better than moving Bloom to LB and then bringing in Jackson to RB.

I've never been a fan of Nelsen but I have my reasons that may not always be fair.

But when it comes to substitutions he's been awful since day one. Makes them late, picks the wrong guys for the wrong spots and often the subs are pointless.

I'd rather Jackson as a winger and moving Osorio in to the middle of the field. But what the hell do we know? LOL Even though many of us have coached as much as he had before TFC signed him. (not one second as a coach)

LOL

I thought the same about Morgan but it was pointed out yesterday that he was injured and that was reason he wasn't on the bench.

[Ultra & Proud]

I never want to see Jackson at RB. He's not showing well at all, no idea what he could be doing in practice to warrant being top choice as a substitute.
I will never know why we didn't put Orr in and move Hagglund over unless Orr isn't fully fit but for just a FB swap, there wasn't anyone else on the bench to choose.

Pretty clear Jackson isn't FB material. I only like him as a sub for Oduro even though it's like for like. That's it. For me, he is depth and then expansion draft bait.

On the goals this past weekend, Jackson was to blame for both but Nelsen was right in saying that the midfielders didn't get back to assist on the tying goal. Every one ball watched and were way far out from goal.

[OgtheDim]

Funny how about a couple of months ago some people were suggesting Jackson as an upgrade for Bloom....cause Jackson has played RB before.

[Derko]

Could we have not gone with 3 in the back and Bradley playing sweeper like Torsten Frings? Just a thought.

[Canary10]

Funny how about a couple of months ago some people were suggesting Jackson as an upgrade for Bloom....cause Jackson has played RB before.

I was thinking that too....

[Oldtimer]

You guys need to look at the records of the other coaches in this league, not at Jose Mourinho.

Nelsen does some bad subs. So does Bruce Arena. So does everyone else. If they were better coaches, they wouldn't be in MLS.
Guess what, we don't need an EPL-quality coach to win this league. Mediocre will do.

Nelsen is not quite as incompetent as some here think. About 50% of the games his subs seem to be quite good. You have to look at the overall record, not just at one game or one position. His ability was dodgy last year, he's improved quite a bit since then. Maybe next year he'll be better than mediocre and actually be good. I'm not quite ready to throw him under the bus.

[TFC07]

Could we have not gone with 3 in the back and Bradley playing sweeper like Torsten Frings? Just a thought.

Nelsen is too conservative to play 3 in the back.

[OfficeGuy]

Here's his response to putting on Jackson instead of a natural RB like Orr......"“We wanted to put Jackson in there. He’s been pretty good out there at times… Sometimes that right back can get left one-on-one, so we needed a bit of athleticism out there,???

AT TIMES?

he just cost you 3 points vs CHI and was BRUTAL in KC...when has he EVER been good at RB??? It's NOT his fault he's a shyte defender, that's not what you got him for....it's 100% YOUR FAULT you play people out of position...

I'm done....



immediate thought - Nelson wanted to make Jackson play like Yedlin does

[A Stick]

You guys need to look at the records of the other coaches in this league, not at Jose Mourinho.

Nelsen does some bad subs. So does Bruce Arena. So does everyone else. If they were better coaches, they wouldn't be in MLS.
Guess what, we don't need an EPL-quality coach to win this league. Mediocre will do.

Nelsen is not quite as incompetent as some here think. About 50% of the games his subs seem to be quite good. You have to look at the overall record, not just at one game or one position. His ability was dodgy last year, he's improved quite a bit since then. Maybe next year he'll be better than mediocre and actually be good. I'm not quite ready to throw him under the bus.

Hey Oldtimer;

I usually agree with you but not this time. Please do not compare Nelson to Arena. Nelson is not even in the same league as Arena (cv, experience, results). LA were floundering for 2 or 3 years after Beckman came and it wasn't until TL hired Arena that desired results came to fruitation. TFC doesn't have 2 more years to figure out they need an experienced coach to guide them to the finals.

[OgtheDim]

Could we have not gone with 3 in the back and Bradley playing sweeper like Torsten Frings? Just a thought.

Bradley doesn't have the inclination to be that defensive. Warner would be a better option. But, 3 at the back would probably be too difficult a transition for this team in the middle of a game. That, and MLS is a league where LB and RB's bomb down as much as they can to cause overlaps. We would need some decent WB's to play 3 at the back.

[ryan]

Nelsen is too conservative to play 3 in the back.

Could have sworn I've seen it this season....

The game where Henry scored late to win I believe we did for the final 20 minutes. Could be wrong, memory can be foggy at the best of times.

[molenshtain]

You guys need to look at the records of the other coaches in this league, not at Jose Mourinho.

Nelsen does some bad subs. So does Bruce Arena. So does everyone else. If they were better coaches, they wouldn't be in MLS.
Guess what, we don't need an EPL-quality coach to win this league. Mediocre will do.

Nelsen is not quite as incompetent as some here think. About 50% of the games his subs seem to be quite good. You have to look at the overall record, not just at one game or one position. His ability was dodgy last year, he's improved quite a bit since then. Maybe next year he'll be better than mediocre and actually be good. I'm not quite ready to throw him under the bus.

A-fucking-men.

And on the point about Orr, he's never looked as comfortable since we stopped sitting so deep after the WC break. He got caught out numerous times because of his pace and his play dropped overall. People really think Orr would have been better than Jackson in that scenario against SKC? Really? or do people just like shitting on Nelsen because he's never been a coach before?

I actually had this interaction with someone from work who also has tickets. He told me he thought Nelsen was gone. That he wasn't achieving anything, He didn't know what he was doing, that the results weren't good enough. I then asked him how good he thought our squad was. he said that while we weren't in the upper echelon of teams like RSL, SKC, or seattle, we should definitely be making the playoffs comfortably. "about second or third in the conference" he said. I asked him if he knew we were third in our conference with at least a game at hand on everyone around us and an incredibly easy run-in. He said he knew and shrugged his shoulders.

Essentially, I believe lots of people here, and TFC fans everywhere who don't like Nelsen, can't tell the difference between an adequate coaching job and a bad coaching job. I agree with my friend. This team is good for 3rd in the east on talent alone right now, and Nelsen is good enough to keep us there. A bad coach would have us lower than that. A good coach would probably have us higher than that. Nelsen may very well turn into a good coach and we will most certainly have better teams in the future. I'd like to see how Nelsen would do in Vermes' or Schmidt's place.

After crossing the fucking desert that was the first 7 years of this club, I feel people focusing and getting super angry about how shit our coach is for only having us in third place is kind of childish. Why don't we have a thread about how awesome the foreseeable future is going to be and about how we're going to be hosting a playoff (fucking playoffs!!!!)game for the first time ever? But no, we won't have that. Because people watch Man City and Chelsea in the morning and then come to the stadium that night and get angry because it's not the same product.

[reggie]

RN system has improved this season its called the defoe,gilberto have scored big goals this season system.

[Oldtimer]

Hey Oldtimer;

I usually agree with you but not this time. Please do not compare Nelson to Arena.

I just said Arena makes mistakes, not that Nelsen is anywhere as good as him. But both of them are so below the level of your average EPL coach... you might say they are in the same league (and actually they are :D ).

People need to get real with what MLS-level coaching is. I can't think of a single MLS coach that would make it in the top 4 leagues.

[Canary10]

RN system has improved this season its called the defoe,gilberto have scored big goals this season system.

That's true of a lot of coaches. ie. the RVP scored system employed by Alex Ferguson two years ago when they won the EPL title.

[Red I]

Could we have not gone with 3 in the back and Bradley playing sweeper like Torsten Frings? Just a thought.


When building a play from the back, this tends to happen naturally

[Ultra & Proud]

RN system has improved this season its called the defoe,gilberto have scored big goals this season system.
I disagree. With these players we look more fluid going forward but we've lost the shape and defensive grit we had last year. Probably because Jeremy Hall doesn't play anymore :D

[dupont]

and I used to Be a Big Defender


You should have said so earlier! TFC really needs another big defender right now because of all the injuries!

[MightyDM]

Let's replace him with Louis van Gaal.

[BuSaPuNk]

I agree with Oldtimer not time to throw Nelly under the bus yet. We got caught. It happens. It was an overall defensive breakdown. This is where I believe keeping Laba would have been the best.

He would never get caught that high up the field and be has the pace to get back into a play. I'd rather one of Warner or Bradley be told to hold that spot in between the backline and the midfield and never get caught up high. If that means he's not usually in the play going forward that's fine by me.

Were a counter attacking club the way were set up. We have to be soild in the back and keeping a dedicated holding mid back there will help.

[mcolvy]

All Nelsen was saying was that he wanted someone who could keep up 1v1 vs a very tricky and quick winger. Orr, I guess in his books, is too slow to handle these mls wingers and thats why he always plays inside.

[ag futbol]

I read it as "and he used to be a big defender", haha!

I look at it this way: we are playing NE, CHI, and PHI to clinch a spot in the post season. If we can't win these games, the story has written itself. No excuse for finishing below those teams.

[jloome]

I agree with Oldtimer not time to throw Nelly under the bus yet. We got caught. It happens. It was an overall defensive breakdown. This is where I believe keeping Laba would have been the best.

He would never get caught that high up the field and be has the pace to get back into a play. I'd rather one of Warner or Bradley be told to hold that spot in between the backline and the midfield and never get caught up high. If that means he's not usually in the play going forward that's fine by me.

Were a counter attacking club the way were set up. We have to be soild in the back and keeping a dedicated holding mid back there will help.

I'm going to stick my neck out on this one. I've been critical and supportive of him, depending on the circumstance.

I think Nelsen has the potential to be a really good coach.

BUT...

(And it's a big but)

...I think his tactical issue is the exact opposite of what people are complaining about. I think he overthinks and overexercises their tactical approach;he's not too conservative at all; he's too progressive.

Here's why: If you study how our shape changes during games, you'll find we're actually playing a fluid system, which he changes from a 442 into whatever he thinks best suits the next opponent.

Our opening shape is always something like this (ignore the player selec, irrelevant to the topic right now):

-------------------Bendik----------------------
Bloom-----Caldwell-----Henry----------Morrow
Oduro-------Bradley---Warner-------Osorio
------------Gilberto----Defoe----------------

BUT, in every game, in our offensive zone we've shifted out of this into something designed to provide better one-on-one matchups against opponents.

Against Seattle, it was a diamond:
---------------Bradley---------------
---Rey------------------Jackson------
---------------Osorio-------------------


Against KC, it was a three-man middle with Osorio coming inside and Warner dropping off

-----------------------Warner----------------------------
-------------Oduro--Bradley--Osorio----------------------

Against DC, it was a 4-1-1, with Gilberto dropping behind Moore; at Montreal, it was a straight 442 again.

Here's the problem: we've seen about ten different offensive permutations this season. How the heck does he expect our players to get into an understanding of each other if they have different positional responsibilities every week?

I can see this kind of approach working in the very long-term; but you'd have to hold a team together for at least two or three seasons before the changes stuck and .... (and it's a big AND) you need players smart enough to do this.

If you have Premiership- or La Liga-quality players who've been in organized systems since the age of ten, moved into pro coaches by age fifteen at the latest, you STILL would probably only get this much tactical ambition offensively from a handful of the top teams with the top players. It's... one of the reasons they're top teams with top players.

But if you look at it from the position of an ambitious young coach who has always excelled as a player, reaching the top of the game, it's easier to see why he might have convinced himself that he can use a fluid structure like this to build a Ferguson-style dynasty; to literally "outcoach" the rest of MLS.

ANd maybe he's right in the long-term. But I have to think that in the short term if we concentrated on two or three offensive sets at most, instead of adapting constantly, the results would be a lot more positive. YOu don't need ten formations in football to win. No one ever has.

I have to believe that much movement affects the defensive end, too, creating transitional holes between our lines of defense that can be exploited. It's only logical that that's going to happen when you have guys drifting in and out all the time.

[GTA_WOLF]

My problem with this team, as of late, is their inability to step on the throats of some of these lesser teams. Possession football is one thing, but not creating enough quality chances in the final third is putting me to sleep lately. Saturday we score early and I'm thinking, pump this shit by 4 or 5.....instead (outside of a couple of half chances) we did very little in the final 3rd. I could see that Earnshaw tying goal coming (much to the dismay of the supporters in my section) but it was going to happen.

This team finally has talent in all sections of the park, but they continue to play with a lack of confidence still, or forced to play a system that won't let them do this!!

Another thing that was driving me nuts.....why the hell is Michael Bradley playing like a 5th defender. Nothing worse than watching a midfielder drop deep, collect a ball, and then make a little 3 yard pass back.....that to me is coaching and a system that they want to instill. Stop fucking defending a 1-0 lead and go murder some of these inferior teams!!

[v00d00daddy]

I thought the same about Morgan but it was pointed out yesterday that he was injured and that was reason he wasn't on the bench.

Ahh ok then that makes sense for not being on the bench. Sucks for Ashton. One time he could have been used all season.

[v00d00daddy]

I'm going to stick my neck out on this one. I've been critical and supportive of him, depending on the circumstance.

I think Nelsen has the potential to be a really good coach.

BUT...

(And it's a big but)

...I think his tactical issue is the exact opposite of what people are complaining about. I think he overthinks and overexercises their tactical approach;he's not too conservative at all; he's too progressive.

Here's why: If you study how our shape changes during games, you'll find we're actually playing a fluid system, which he changes from a 442 into whatever he thinks best suits the next opponent.

Our opening shape is always something like this (ignore the player selec, irrelevant to the topic right now):

-------------------Bendik----------------------
Bloom-----Caldwell-----Henry----------Morrow
Oduro-------Bradley---Warner-------Osorio
------------Gilberto----Defoe----------------

BUT, in every game, in our offensive zone we've shifted out of this into something designed to provide better one-on-one matchups against opponents.

Against Seattle, it was a diamond:
---------------Bradley---------------
---Rey------------------Jackson------
---------------Osorio-------------------


Against KC, it was a three-man middle with Osorio coming inside and Warner dropping off

-----------------------Warner----------------------------
-------------Oduro--Bradley--Osorio----------------------

Against DC, it was a 4-1-1, with Gilberto dropping behind Moore; at Montreal, it was a straight 442 again.

Here's the problem: we've seen about ten different offensive permutations this season. How the heck does he expect our players to get into an understanding of each other if they have different positional responsibilities every week?

I can see this kind of approach working in the very long-term; but you'd have to hold a team together for at least two or three seasons before the changes stuck and .... (and it's a big AND) you need players smart enough to do this.

If you have Premiership- or La Liga-quality players who've been in organized systems since the age of ten, moved into pro coaches by age fifteen at the latest, you STILL would probably only get this much tactical ambition offensively from a handful of the top teams with the top players. It's... one of the reasons they're top teams with top players.

But if you look at it from the position of an ambitious young coach who has always excelled as a player, reaching the top of the game, it's easier to see why he might have convinced himself that he can use a fluid structure like this to build a Ferguson-style dynasty; to literally "outcoach" the rest of MLS.

ANd maybe he's right in the long-term. But I have to think that in the short term if we concentrated on two or three offensive sets at most, instead of adapting constantly, the results would be a lot more positive. YOu don't need ten formations in football to win. No one ever has.

I have to believe that much movement affects the defensive end, too, creating transitional holes between our lines of defense that can be exploited. It's only logical that that's going to happen when you have guys drifting in and out all the time.


Hmmm… this is interesting but it makes me wonder a couple of things.

Where and when would he have learned any of this? As a defender at Tottenham/Blackburn/QPR?

He'd never coached a day in his life and didn't play at a club that seemed to be as versatile with formations and styles. He also didn't play at a position to be a part of the every game changes that you described. In fact, the central defender is the guy who has to change the least in all of the formations you mentioned.

I'd like to think he's got that kind of versatility but I just don't buy it. Hope you're right..but even if you are…he'll never have the squad to pull that off. He needs to pick a way of playing and take in to consideration variations of that way in case of leads, chasing teams or playing teams that are way better than us. Other than that he shouldn't stray too much.

I love that we score more than ever (we sure should considering how much we've spent on scoring players) but we concede more goals than most teams in the league. When a defender (i refuse to call him a coach lol) teaches that….it's a problem.

[v00d00daddy]

A-fucking-men.

And on the point about Orr, he's never looked as comfortable since we stopped sitting so deep after the WC break. He got caught out numerous times because of his pace and his play dropped overall. People really think Orr would have been better than Jackson in that scenario against SKC? Really? or do people just like shitting on Nelsen because he's never been a coach before?

I actually had this interaction with someone from work who also has tickets. He told me he thought Nelsen was gone. That he wasn't achieving anything, He didn't know what he was doing, that the results weren't good enough. I then asked him how good he thought our squad was. he said that while we weren't in the upper echelon of teams like RSL, SKC, or seattle, we should definitely be making the playoffs comfortably. "about second or third in the conference" he said. I asked him if he knew we were third in our conference with at least a game at hand on everyone around us and an incredibly easy run-in. He said he knew and shrugged his shoulders.

Essentially, I believe lots of people here, and TFC fans everywhere who don't like Nelsen, can't tell the difference between an adequate coaching job and a bad coaching job. I agree with my friend. This team is good for 3rd in the east on talent alone right now, and Nelsen is good enough to keep us there. A bad coach would have us lower than that. A good coach would probably have us higher than that. Nelsen may very well turn into a good coach and we will most certainly have better teams in the future. I'd like to see how Nelsen would do in Vermes' or Schmidt's place.

After crossing the fucking desert that was the first 7 years of this club, I feel people focusing and getting super angry about how shit our coach is for only having us in third place is kind of childish. Why don't we have a thread about how awesome the foreseeable future is going to be and about how we're going to be hosting a playoff (fucking playoffs!!!!)game for the first time ever? But no, we won't have that. Because people watch Man City and Chelsea in the morning and then come to the stadium that night and get angry because it's not the same product.

I'm gonna take the high road and just ask you not to call people who disagree with you childish and unable to see the difference between good coaches and bad coaches.

It's just another opinion. The guy you're defending as a good coach was never, ever, ever a coach anywhere before TFC. Take that in to consideration.

And if you want to post in a positive foreseeable future thread then start one. It's simple.

[gate7]

like 'Grapes' likes to say...."show me a good goalie and ill show you a good coach"....

[TFC07]

Some people have really set a low standard for a coach.

I think some of you guys are underestimating how much an impact a coach can make. If we had better coach, we would have probably have better record, but instead we're just trying to make it to the playoffs and hoping teams bottom of standings don't start winning.

Also, blaming players who are playing out of their position is weak argument since it's coach who's putting his players in that position to begin with. If talent is an issue, then blame GM Bez who hasn't done a thing since summer window has opened. We all know this team needs better CB and natural wingers, but yet, we don't hear TFC even attempting to sign one during summer.

[OgtheDim]

.....If we had better coach, we would have probably have better record...

Based on watching how teams play in MLS, I would have to disagree.

There is a lot of regression to the mean in this league.

[Oldtimer]

Some people have really set a low standard for a coach.

I think some of you guys are underestimating how much an impact a coach can make. If we had better coach, we would have probably have better record,

You are saying that an improvement from last place to third is a "really low standard?" If you thought TFC would improve from last to MLS Cup winners, you need to get a more realistic appraisal of things.

[TFC07]

You are saying that an improvement from last place to third is a "really low standard?" If you thought TFC would improve from last to MLS Cup winners, you need to get a more realistic appraisal of things.

Well DC United are first in the east right now and I believe they finish last year. So what does say to you?

TFC spent tons of money and got some really good role players, but yet, we fail to put together a winning streak to complete against the best in the league. So what's the problem here? Is it really talent? On paper, TFC should one of top teams in the league. So what is it?

The answer: Nelsen and weak coaching staff is the problem here. Having players playing out of position consistently, inability to make subs at right time and being too stubborn to end Warner-Bradley experiment is what holding TFC back the most right now. Of course lack of signings in summer to address couple of issues (CB and natural winger) is also part of the problem as well.

[Phil]

Well DC United are first in the east right now and I believe they finish last year. So what does say to you?

TFC spent tons of money and got some really good role players, but yet, we fail to put together a winning streak to complete against the best in the league. So what's the problem here? Is it really talent? On paper, TFC should one of top teams in the league. So what is it?

The answer: Nelsen and weak coaching staff is the problem here. Having players playing out of position consistently, inability to make subs at right time and being too stubborn to end Warner-Bradley experiment is what holding TFC back the most right now. Of course lack of signings in summer to address couple of issues (CB and natural winger) is also part of the problem as well.

Portland are a good example to me that illustrate everyones point to a degree. A couple years ago they finished poorly, then last year they did rather well - especially so at home - and made a deep run into the playoffs, only to have a tough year this year (although clawing their way back into a tough confrence).

Could have fired their coach a few times pending those results. I am still in the 'stick with him' side for now. See A) if we get into playoffs, B) where we get into it - top half, bottom or wildcard & C) what kind of progression we actually make in playoffs.

[Oldtimer]

Portland are a good example to me that illustrate everyones point to a degree. A couple years ago they finished poorly, then last year they did rather well - especially so at home - and made a deep run into the playoffs, only to have a tough year this year (although clawing their way back into a tough confrence).

Could have fired their coach a few times pending those results. I am still in the 'stick with him' side for now. See A) if we get into playoffs, B) where we get into it - top half, bottom or wildcard & C) what kind of progression we actually make in playoffs.

So where I stand at this point is that Nelsen is a mediocre coach, not a great one, and he has great connections. He's no different than a lot of MLS coaches.

[PopePouri]

Well DC United are first in the east right now and I believe they finish last year. So what does say to you?


That DC threw around tons of allocation and are overspending on a lot of domestic aging MLS talent who will lose trade value by the end of season. All done so that Olsen can keep win now and not lose his job.

[Canary10]

I'm not convinced DC is for real. Sure didn't look it last night.

[ag futbol]

That DC threw around tons of allocation and are overspending on a lot of domestic aging MLS talent who will lose trade value by the end of season. All done so that Olsen can keep win now and not lose his job.
I feel like I'm pointing this out in every thread but.... They have a very good domestic core, which is the primary reason for their success and very sustainable. Nothing about their Cap situation suggests it's going to have to be blown up: they get rid of Pontius( who has been injured all year) and one other decent sized contract it's within current guidelines (which probably won't matter anyway given new CBA).

Anyway, let's not make this about DCU. Make it about TFC and if what we're doing is actually making the team better. I have my doubts about that.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Well DC United are first in the east right now and I believe they finish last year. So what does say to you?

TFC spent tons of money and got some really good role players, but yet, we fail to put together a winning streak to complete against the best in the league. So what's the problem here? Is it really talent? On paper, TFC should one of top teams in the league. So what is it?

The answer: Nelsen and weak coaching staff is the problem here. Having players playing out of position consistently, inability to make subs at right time and being too stubborn to end Warner-Bradley experiment is what holding TFC back the most right now. Of course lack of signings in summer to address couple of issues (CB and natural winger) is also part of the problem as well.

Signings of Warner and Creavaelle addressed issues. Issues of not having consistent starting DP's. That was more important than the very recent issue you refer to. Our defense wasn't strong but looked to get by before injuries happened.


And DC got away with alot of close games not taking away you need to be good to be lucky. Also the destruction of KC was a clinic on the weekend. I'm glad to hear they are showing chinks in armour as of yesterday. Those would be true colours.

[v00d00daddy]

BTW…this Molinaro article should be here as well as the daily news where it's being ignored.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/mls-major-leaue-soccer-dwayne-de-rosario-toronto-fc-tfc-benito-floro/


“We’ve gotten everything from [Dwayne De Rosario],” coach Ryan Nelsen said following the Chicago game. “He’s been fantastic in the locker room. [But] I’ve got a Premier League striker [Luke Moore] on the bench and a Nigerian striker [Bright Dike] who would have been going to the World Cup.”

Read the rest of the article folks and see how DeRo feels about not being played.

Now…I'm no DeRo super fan (I was very critical of him after the post cheque signing and critical in terms of his style of play and lack of a defined position before that) but this is a bit of insight and opinion from someone first hand with Nelsen.

[PopePouri]

Poor DeRo.


http://youtu.be/FrQvFCti6BE

Play me....Play me....Play me.....

[trane]

I still have mixed feelings about Nelsen, I have to give him credit or making us an overall better team then we have been. However, I still feel, that we could be better with the talent that we have, and I do feel that for an MLS side we have a lot of solid players. I feel that he has not been able to get the best out of the attacking players we have, and we are still making to many defensive mistake. Much better then we were, of course, but we have what it takes, in terms of talent, to be quite a bit better.

[barticusz]

Seriously? We're back to this again? If you haven't seen a completely different side from the beginning of the season to now there's no use in arguing this point. Nelson has done a good job with our team, sticking with guys if they've struggled and giving lots of playing time to our young guys which show promise.

THIS IS THE MLS. Pep, Jose, and the like will not be found here. There's a reason the average age of the managers is around 35. This is a learning league for most managers. As someone else pointed out, this is a league where the majority of teams regress to the mean.

It's not an easy league and it takes time to build chemistry and create teams like LA, SKC, RSL etc. We've had an incredible amount of injuries this year and yet we're still sitting in third place in the east at the end of August.

Keep the group together and move forward.

[BuSaPuNk]

Seriously? We're back to this again? If you haven't seen a completely different side from the beginning of the season to now there's no use in arguing this point. Nelson has done a good job with our team, sticking with guys if they've struggled and giving lots of playing time to our young guys which show promise.

THIS IS THE MLS. Pep, Jose, and the like will not be found here. There's a reason the average age of the managers is around 35. This is a learning league for most managers. As someone else pointed out, this is a league where the majority of teams regress to the mean.

It's not an easy league and it takes time to build chemistry and create teams like LA, SKC, RSL etc. We've had an incredible amount of injuries this year and yet we're still sitting in third place in the east at the end of August.

Keep the group together and move forward.

Agreed

The point that's missing in a lot of this is were still in 3rd place with the amount of injured players coming in and out the last two months were still in a great spot. Nelsen has really got the most he can out of plugging our lineup with the injuries.

Do we all wish they got some more points yes. But considering were still in a great spot. As long as we stay out of that play in game I think this season is going as good as we could have hoped with a complete roster overhaul.

[OgtheDim]

The following teams have been touted as wonderful and looking difficult to beat at some time so far this season:


SKC
Seattle
RSL
LAG
Chivas
Houston
Dallas
NER
Philly
NYRB
TFC
DCU
Colorado
Vancouver



i.e. Everybody but Montreal, the Fire, San Jose and Portland has had a 4 + game consistent run of form.


You don't get that in leagues where 2-5 teams dominate.

[ManUtd4ever]

Nelsen has definitely improved throughout the course of the season in terms of tactical flexibility and personnel management, although he has still made some questionable substitutions as of late. He still has a long way to go, but he has earned the right to lead this team for the duration of the season, and hopefully, into the playoffs.

[Ruffian]

I am not a big fan of Nelson but please do not change the coach. This is one of the best seasons we have had yet. A new coach could ruin it. Also he has not had this group together for a full season. If he is looking bad in his second season with this team then maybe it is time to discuss a new coach. People on here complain about the constant turn over in managers and at the same time always want a new manager.

[Fort York Redcoat]

The following teams have been touted as wonderful and looking difficult to beat at some time so far this season:


SKC
Seattle
RSL
LAG
Chivas
Houston
Dallas
NER
Philly
NYRB
TFC
DCU
Colorado
Vancouver



i.e. Everybody but Montreal, the Fire, San Jose and Portland has had a 4 + game consistent run of form.


You don't get that in leagues where 2-5 teams dominate.

This is a great point to add perspective. Cheers.

[barticusz]

The following teams have been touted as wonderful and looking difficult to beat at some time so far this season:


SKC
Seattle
RSL
LAG
Chivas
Houston
Dallas
NER
Philly
NYRB
TFC
DCU
Colorado
Vancouver



i.e. Everybody but Montreal, the Fire, San Jose and Portland has had a 4 + game consistent run of form.


You don't get that in leagues where 2-5 teams dominate.

Bingo. Close the thread.

[Red CB Toronto]

It just happy that the Reds have one of the premier players in the MLS with General Bradley, I still shake my head that he is suiting up for the Reds this season and for the next four seasons.

[v00d00daddy]

The following teams have been touted as wonderful and looking difficult to beat at some time so far this season:


SKC
Seattle
RSL
LAG
Chivas
Houston
Dallas
NER
Philly
NYRB
TFC
DCU
Colorado
Vancouver



i.e. Everybody but Montreal, the Fire, San Jose and Portland has had a 4 + game consistent run of form.


You don't get that in leagues where 2-5 teams dominate.


This is a great point to add perspective. Cheers.


Yeah good for perspective but don't ignore the fact that we've given up more goals than we've scored and given up more goals per game (1.56) than all teams in the east other than…..Philly, Montreal and Houston.

That's all with a defender at the helm and calling the shots.

Just some more perspective

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yeah good for perspective but don't ignore the fact that we've given up more goals than we've scored and given up more goals per game (1.56) than all teams in the east other than…..Philly, Montreal and Houston.

That's all with a defender at the helm and calling the shots.

Just some more perspective

Because this thread is all about Nelsen:

We know he has "a" say (that is, not the "final" say) on players coming and going but

What kind of Backline do you think we'd have if Nelsen, a defender, was working towards building the best backline in the league?

I'd reckon we'd have some more expensive backs on this squad. I see how porous we've become but I'd like ot compare that to previous years. I don't think we're that far off where we've come from and we're making the difference up top. It's still very risky business relying on the fact we can score 2 goals a game and I'd like to see that change but it will come slower with all the money we've tied up in the team already.

[ManUtd4ever]

It just happy that the Reds have one of the premier players in the MLS with General Bradley, I still shake my head that he is suiting up for the Reds this season and for the next four seasons.

Bradley has regressed considerably since he had surgery. I think he was dominant prior to his injury, but in all honesty, he hasn't been playing like one of the premier midfielders in MLS for quite some time.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Bradley has regressed considerably since he had surgery. I think he was dominant prior to his injury, but in all honesty, he hasn't been playing like one of the premier midfielders in MLS for quite some time.

I've noticed him more in the final third than midfield. I hope that changes.

[ManUtd4ever]

I've noticed him more in the final third than midfield. I hope that changes.

He still has his prime years ahead of him. I think he will eventually regain his form and once again be a dominant player for us, but it's realistically going to take time.

[Ultra & Proud]

Bradley has regressed considerably since he had surgery. I think he was dominant prior to his injury, but in all honesty, he hasn't been playing like one of the premier midfielders in MLS for quite some time.
I bet that when the dust settles it will be revealed that he has been playing with a bunch of nagging injuries. Not the Defoe and Caldwell type that can keep popping up and getting worse but the wee ones that throw everything off.

[Pookie]

Injuries were to be expected. Included Defoe's now end of September prediction.

As for position in the standings, some of you should define what success is about.

Many talk about the playoffs. It's a mediocre goal. We are mediocre. In the top 50% of the league. So, what's the complaining about? The team could squeak into the MLS playoffs and win the Cup if a team SKC has injuries or some other run of bad luck.

If you want a table champion caliber team, that will take time. It will take the draft. You don't buy it in this domestic quota league.

Nelsen has led this team to exactly the level that many… many… have defined as being successful. Making the playoffs.

[gate7]

i wonder what Carver would have accomplished with two - 6 mil players.....

[Hamilton_Red]

Mediocre is a million times better than rank rotten - which is the story of our first 7 years. But i don't think that is what we had in mind when we splashed the cash and became the most expensive roster in MLS.

This team can't put games away once they take a lead. The motivation level doesn't seem to be there - very few of the players are playing above their level. Our goalie gambit has failed pretty badly. We need to see some character now. This team needs to get winning spree going right now.

[Pookie]

Mediocre is a million times better than rank rotten - which is the story of our first 7 years. But i don't think that is what we had in mind when we splashed the cash and became the most expensive roster in MLS.

This team can't put games away once they take a lead. The motivation level doesn't seem to be there - very few of the players are playing above their level. Our goalie gambit has failed pretty badly. We need to see some character now. This team needs to get winning spree going right now.


Becoming the most expensive roster in MLS probably had another goal outside of winning. Winning obviously a goal but "A" list players and a delayed season ticket renewal process had a lot to do with it.

I'd disagree on the effort. It's there. The fellows are trying.

[Fort York Redcoat]

We are precisely where we said we wanted to be. It's the way we got the points that seem mediocre. We aren't even the only team in the league doing this right now. Not even the best example. DC is not the team that destroyed KC last weekend but one can't call their place in the table a lie. they're there.

I'd rather not simplify this buying a team as a straight exchange. There are 8 other players after 3 dp's that are ingredients that all have a different variables to make this team more than mediocre.

[BuSaPuNk]

We are precisely where we said we wanted to be. It's the way we got the points that seem mediocre. We aren't even the only team in the league doing this right now. Not even the best example. DC is not the team that destroyed KC last weekend but one can't call their place in the table a lie. they're there.

I'd rather not simplify this buying a team as a straight exchange. There are 8 other players after 3 dp's that are ingredients that all have a different variables to make this team more than mediocre.

Not to mention KC getting completely distroyed by Houston last night. Every top club has a stretch of bad games. Its how you limit that and find ways to collect points on these runs.

We've had some games where we completely didn't deserve anything and still got points and games that we deserved all 3 points and got only 1.

This run of 5 games is going to tell a lot of where we will be come October.

[Ultra & Proud]

i wonder what Carver would have accomplished with two - 6 mil players.....
More fines and suspensions for freaking out about officiating I would say.

[molenshtain]

i wonder what Carver would have accomplished with two - 6 mil players.....

Carver would have accomplished fuck all. That goes for cummins too. Both of those teams, given the sheer talent, should have been walking the league both of those years.

[Ultra & Proud]

Carver would have accomplished fuck all. That goes for cummins too. Both of those teams, given the sheer talent, should have been walking the league both of those years.
I pretty much agree. In my opinion we've never had any good managers. Preki was probably the best and he wasn't great either but he did squeeze something out of a really shite squad. Nelsen is the probably the best manager we've had in our history, by default because the rest were crap but also because he has shown some growth and also understands MLS. Is he Arena or Schmidt? Not at all but then these guys weren't tearing the league apart when they first broke in either. The grew into their roles and became great MLS managers. Nelsen at least has the potential to do the same and that's more than could be said about the rest.

[Hamilton_Red]

The problem for TFC is that they were/are in no position to take a gamble and hope that he develops into a top class manager. A year or two as an assistant manager would have been prudent. Money on a DP level inernational manager would have been well spent.

[molenshtain]

The problem for TFC is that they were/are in no position to take a gamble and hope that he develops into a top class manager. A year or two as an assistant manager would have been prudent. Money on a DP level inernational manager would have been well spent.

But there isn't really any precedent of any manager of significant pedigree coming here from Europe or South America. And there were no good american managers who were unsettled or looking for a new club. The club took a flyer on a dude with great leadership skills and a long ass rolodex. In some ways it hasn't worked out but in most ways it has. And as this team adds more pieces over the coming transfer windows I fail to see at what point Nelsen could regress as a manager.

[Ultra & Proud]

Money on a DP level inernational manager would have been well spent.
International managers have largely been failures in MLS. You have to know MLS to get the MLS rules and the associated B.S that goes along with this league to succeed.

[Pookie]

^ it's also a huge risk for an international manager, a top one, to come over here. The league is perceived as lower level. The manager would essentially be expected to win, held to winning and find his career tarnished if he didn't.

When you chalk up all the things that can go wrong in a season that are beyond anyone's control, I'm not sure many would line up for that.

[Ultra & Proud]

No top manager would ever do it and it wouldn't be worth the money for what you can get from them being here.

Seriously, if you toss Jose, Fergie, or whoever over here do you really think the level of the squad will change significantly?

Only a raise in the salary cap and players being taught to improve their football IQs at younger ages (good academies) will help. Here you still have a lot of scrubs taking up roster spots. Some effective for MLS but all have their problems. You can only polish turds so much as they say and generally, the level of some players and the whole constrictive system will turn off many good managers after a short time.

[ag futbol]

But there isn't really any precedent of any manager of significant pedigree coming here from Europe or South America. And there were no good american managers who were unsettled or looking for a new club. The club took a flyer on a dude with great leadership skills and a long ass rolodex. In some ways it hasn't worked out but in most ways it has. And as this team adds more pieces over the coming transfer windows I fail to see at what point Nelsen could regress as a manager.
This is just our perception as oppose to reality. Game isn't well covered here and our understanding of what a quality candidate is outside of the exceedingly obvious is not great.

I'm sure if we had someone like Professor who occasionally posts on this board volunteer a list of name with at least 5-6 realistic high-quality candidates. I might volunteer Octavio Zambrano for starters, and I'm sure Sasho Cirovski could be had for the right money / setup.

[gate7]

Carver would have accomplished fuck all. That goes for cummins too. Both of those teams, given the sheer talent, should have been walking the league both of those years.


.....missed the playoffs in the last game of the season one year.....looks like 12million will squeak us through this time..:thumbsup:

[trane]

No top manager would ever do it and it wouldn't be worth the money for what you can get from them being here.

Seriously, if you toss Jose, Fergie, or whoever over here do you really think the level of the squad will change significantly?

Only a raise in the salary cap and players being taught to improve their football IQs at younger ages (good academies) will help. Here you still have a lot of scrubs taking up roster spots. Some effective for MLS but all have their problems. You can only polish turds so much as they say and generally, the level of some players and the whole constrictive system will turn off many good managers after a short time.

I do not think you need a top manager, Mou/Ancelotti, you need a top lowere leaque teaching manager, type that takes a shite side in the Championshp/Serie B to get promoted but keeping the side organized and winning despite problems with the talent.

[T-boy]

Van Gaal is currently doing a good demonstration that 1. a good reputation doesn't mean a thing, and/or 2. it really does take a long time to transition a football team, even if you are a top manager!

[jazzy]

But there isn't really any precedent of any manager of significant pedigree coming here from Europe or South America. And there were no good american managers who were unsettled or looking for a new club. The club took a flyer on a dude with great leadership skills and a long ass rolodex. In some ways it hasn't worked out but in most ways it has. And as this team adds more pieces over the coming transfer windows I fail to see at what point Nelsen could regress as ​a manager.

uh last night for starters...

[molenshtain]

uh last night for starters...

Before last night I had the general belief that Nelsen could at least get the players interested in every single game. Now I'm not so sure.

[reggie]

millon dollar O,millon dollar midfield(money wise anyway)50 cent D = 500 club

[jazzy]

Before last night I had the general belief that Nelsen could at least get the players interested in every single game. Now I'm not so sure.

me too.......I'm unusually confused about the teams general state...........and I'll not at all sure about making the play-offs ,....I like the man but I am very afraid he is far too predictable . His substitution management is very uninspiring and again predictable . Nelsen may have to rise above himself and get outside of his comfort zone .

[ag futbol]

Van Gaal is currently doing a good demonstration that 1. a good reputation doesn't mean a thing, and/or 2. it really does take a long time to transition a football team, even if you are a top manager!
van gaal hasn't even played ten league games yet, while Nelsen is coming to the end of his second season as coach. We can run down the rest of the details from here if you'd like, but I think you know where this going...