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MStep95
06-20-2014, 01:19 PM
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/jermain-defoe-set-qpr-transfer-3659315

is this true or just a rumor? If it's true that sucks for me because I just bought a defoe tfc jersey :(

Red Skies At Night
06-20-2014, 01:21 PM
I take it you didn't read the article...? It's just a loan.

as per this quote from the article:

"The Toronto FC striker (http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/jermain%20defoe) will arrive on loan as part of a plan by the Hoops boss to work once more with a trio of his former West Ham players."

burlington Red
06-20-2014, 01:23 PM
been floating around for a few weeks now, was discussed on another thread recently, would only be a loan move, much like Beckham did at Milan, Henry with Arsenal and Keane did with Villa.
Prob natural for press to make that connection considering Defoe's previous with Redknapp

Phil
06-20-2014, 01:32 PM
I wouldn't read too much into it until it comes from local sources.

Even then, it clearly states a loan deal if it does happen.

jloome
06-20-2014, 01:36 PM
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/jermain-defoe-set-qpr-transfer-3659315

is this true or just a rumor? If it's true that sucks for me because I just bought a defoe tfc jersey :(

It's in the Mirror, which makes it as likely to be accurate as guessing the world cup winner with a game of quarters.

But less fun.

MStep95
06-20-2014, 01:36 PM
Ah jeez, didn't even read the article really. Saw the title and was shocked. A loan wouldn't be the worst thing

Abou Sky
06-20-2014, 01:36 PM
How would that effect money for TFC? Would we get additional allocation like in a sale or would it just go to MLSE or ???

MartinUtd
06-20-2014, 01:37 PM
So Defoe misses a pre-season or at the very least gets a shortened off-season? If this is anything other than returning the favour for Cesar then I don't like it.

C.Ronaldo
06-20-2014, 01:53 PM
are they putting together the real old boys club?

thats some aging players

mowe
06-20-2014, 02:07 PM
I don't see why Defoe would want to go on loan. It's pretty clear his England career is done. Even if it wasn't, a few months on loan won't change his standing. Plus there's no major tournament to stay fit for.

I think he'll enjoy a nice long offseason, especially considering his season started in August and will hopefully go until December.

Phil
06-20-2014, 02:19 PM
If it did happen I would view it as a return favour for giving us Julio for the few months.

I would agree with mowe though, one season in the MLS and I would predict DeFoe would want some relaxation time and a proper ramp up to the season.

ManUtd4ever
06-20-2014, 02:30 PM
Yeah, I doubt Defoe would agree to a loan this off season. Although he wasn't a regular starter for Spurs, he hasn't had time off in quite a while, and his body will definitely need to recuperate following the conclusion of the regular season.

Richard
06-20-2014, 02:34 PM
I cant fathom why anyone at TFC would want this(aside from minimal allocation we might acquire), we need a fully rested Defoe pre-season for the next 4 years.

I think MLS really needs to start flexing its muscle and start cracking down over the next few years with such players as Villa, Kaka, Lampard coming into the league. If clubs are going to be paying huge money for prime time players then those stars better not piss and moan about not being able to go for a loan somewhere in the off season.

WestStandGeoff
06-20-2014, 02:41 PM
How would that effect money for TFC? Would we get additional allocation like in a sale or would it just go to MLSE or ???

My guess is no money, but maybe some more loan considerations? They did give us Cesar for a couple months, and not on the same level but they lent us Ephraim last season too.

Red I
06-20-2014, 02:43 PM
I don't see why Defoe would want to go on loan. It's pretty clear his England career is done. Even if it wasn't, a few months on loan won't change his standing. Plus there's no major tournament to stay fit for.

I think he'll enjoy a nice long offseason, especially considering his season started in August and will hopefully go until December.

Euro Cup in 2 years ... with the flame out that happened to Spain, sounds like powers ready to shift - he might want a piece of that action.

Also, with England pooing the bed so far, it's a fair bet he'll get a good look this time around

Richard
06-20-2014, 02:59 PM
Euro Cup in 2 years ... with the flame out that happened to Spain, sounds like powers ready to shift - he might want a piece of that action.

Also, with England pooing the bed so far, it's a fair bet he'll get a good look this time around

I wouldn't say they are "pooing the bed" and realistically these performances should have been expected. However England now have a solid core of young players but with inexperience, I don't think Defoe is going be that veteran to bolster the team in two years time, if he wasn't going this year then he wont be going two years from now when all the young players would have matured.

OgtheDim
06-20-2014, 03:07 PM
I think its more likely he'll take a few weeks off and then train with Spurs in the off season rather then a loan anywhere. The guy seems to enjoy training.

Pookie
06-20-2014, 05:18 PM
I cant fathom why anyone at TFC would want this(aside from minimal allocation we might acquire), we need a fully rested Defoe pre-season for the next 4 years.



At some point, Defoe's contract may become an anchor around this team.

Player in his 30's, with injury history and no relief on the MLS budget charge. From a team building standpoint, he's a great player but not exactly a long term foundation.

MLSE got what they wanted out of this signing already. Season ticket sales were much higher with Defoe than they would have been without him. If the team does well this season, renewals should be fine with or without him.

They either take the risk associated with his age and the expense and have him playing at 34-35 years of age. Or they entertain options to exit from the contract at some point between now and 2017. A good performance while on loan in his native country might be enough to arose the curiosity of potential buyers and if there are takers for Defoe, it might not be the worst thing over the long term.

jloome
06-21-2014, 10:05 AM
At some point, Defoe's contract may become an anchor around this team.

Player in his 30's, with injury history and no relief on the MLS budget charge. From a team building standpoint, he's a great player but not exactly a long term foundation.

MLSE got what they wanted out of this signing already. Season ticket sales were much higher with Defoe than they would have been without him. If the team does well this season, renewals should be fine with or without him.

They either take the risk associated with his age and the expense and have him playing at 34-35 years of age. Or they entertain options to exit from the contract at some point between now and 2017. A good performance while on loan in his native country might be enough to arose the curiosity of potential buyers and if there are takers for Defoe, it might not be the worst thing over the long term.

Theoretically fine; but historically this hasn't happened. Top players who've come over have either already been shot through (Matthaus, Mista) or they've performed well right to 35 (Henry, DiVaio, Beckham) or past. The latter seems more likely. This is well below his level and Defoe is smart enough to adjust for losing a step as he ages, because it's his ability to find space around the box by pulling off his defender that leads to most of his goals.

mowe
06-21-2014, 10:23 AM
No other club is going to pay Defoe $6 million a year. He's not going anywhere.

jabbronies
06-21-2014, 11:20 AM
Loan deal means TFC will get cash from QPR...no? With that being said our Season ticket prices better not sky rocket next year.

As long as he stays fit I think it's a good move for him. Keeps him sharp at a high level. He'll come back to MLS a few steps up on the competition.

You'll see more and more of the higher end DP's doing this. It's good for the player because they get games at the highest levels of football while still making the cash they probably couldn't get elsewhere. It also gives them a leg up on the competition when they get back to MLS.

Good for both teams -
Financially the team loaning the player gets more return on their investment - risky though. The team getting the player gets a key player at a fraction of the cost for a critical part of the season.

Kaz
06-21-2014, 01:23 PM
What if it means we keep Julio till the end of the season, and they get Jermaine in the off season.

Pookie
06-21-2014, 06:02 PM
Theoretically fine; but historically this hasn't happened. Top players who've come over have either already been shot through (Matthaus, Mista) or they've performed well right to 35 (Henry, DiVaio, Beckham) or past. The latter seems more likely. This is well below his level and Defoe is smart enough to adjust for losing a step as he ages, because it's his ability to find space around the box by pulling off his defender that leads to most of his goals.

Depends on which pages of the history book you read.

Age and injury are the wild cards to performance that no one can predict. Top players that come over here have indeed had decent starts that ended abruptly. Koevermans and Frings are two very recent and local examples.

Other players at the top of their games in their 30s relative to their peers have dropped off as well. 2009 Golden Boot winner Jeff Cunningham led the league at 33. 2 years later, he was out of MLS. 2011 MVP and Golden Boot Winner, Dwayne DeRosario won it at 32. By the time he was 34 he had potted just 3 goals for DC and ended his season early with a MCL injury. This year, he gets just a few minutes a game.

Granted skill levels of these MLS players are not necessarily that of the DPs but relative to their peers within MLS they dominated and then quickly experienced a drop off. Age and injury are variables we cannot predict nor escape.

ensco
06-21-2014, 09:33 PM
The loan doesn't make sense to me. The combined sum of what Defoe and TFC would need to make ($5M for half a season?) doesn't make much sense for QPR.

An outright transfer would make some sense to me. Defoe and Bradley's deals make zero economic sense, someone (not Leiweke) might actually care about that.

prizby
06-21-2014, 10:21 PM
we are winning and now we are complaining about a players chance of injury...i guess this beats losing, but still

Pint
06-22-2014, 02:33 AM
The loan doesn't make sense to me. The combined sum of what Defoe and TFC would need to make ($5M for half a season?) doesn't make much sense for QPR.

An outright transfer would make some sense to me. Defoe and Bradley's deals make zero economic sense, someone (not Leiweke) might actually care about that.
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could you explain how they make "no zero economic sense" while incorporating in future cash flow as well? Long term growth, league CBA, expanded seating for tfc, etc should all be part of this forecast on your part.

These contracts allow for additional marketing money, favorable brand reputation allowance(growth in brand value), playoff revenue and future increase in season seat holder price... all these factors were taken into consideration before opening the vault.

Pookie
06-22-2014, 05:58 AM
we are winning and now we are complaining about a players chance of injury...i guess this beats losing, but still

Not complaining just looking at the full picture.

If you had signed DeRo to a 4 year, full budget charge DP contract at the start of 2011

2011 - Golden Boot - MVP
- you'd be considered genius

2012 - 7 goals … 500+ fewer minutes
- you'd still be happy and hopeful of a return to form

2013 - 3 goals… 600+ fewer minutes vs 2012 and a season ending MCL injury
- uh oh. And when you realize you get no budget relief for injured players… son of a…

2014 - bench sub
- pretty difficult contract to get out of. Who signed it in the first place?



Who knows if Defoe goes this way but the risk is certainly there given that 2013 and early 2014 were far from injury free. Serious questions need to be asked about whether you can build a long term team around him and determine a contingency plan if he goes the way of so many before him.

ensco
06-22-2014, 07:22 AM
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could you explain how they make "no zero economic sense" while incorporating in future cash flow as well? Long term growth, league CBA, expanded seating for tfc, etc should all be part of this forecast on your part.

These contracts allow for additional marketing money, favorable brand reputation allowance(growth in brand value), playoff revenue and future increase in season seat holder price... all these factors were taken into consideration before opening the vault.

It's hardly worth debating - Leiweke himself called it financial suicide.

If team sells an extra 5000 tickets a year because of those guys, that is a big if btw, the bloom will be off the rose next year if the team doesn't win, call it net $30/ticket, that's an extra $150 a game, call it $3M incremental revenue with friendlies and the odd playoff game.

Nobody knows what TV revenue is but it's almost certainly less than a million bucks a year. Say in your wildest dreams it goes to $3-5M in 3 years.

Maybe they make an extra $500K in merchandise royalties.

That's all together around $6-8 million - or maybe half of what Defoe and Bradley cost each season.

The brand value growth argument is used endlessly in every business meeting for every bold expenditure in the world. Mostly it isn't true. What are Galaxy shirt sales today like?

There is no linkage between Defoe/Bradley and a huge capital spend to increase capacity at BMO. That is a 20-40 year investment decision not backed by any business case that is TFC related. Although I would agree that those guys are a real part of Leiweke's razzle dazzle on the BMO expansion topic.

Richard
06-22-2014, 10:09 AM
It's hardly worth debating - Leiweke himself called it financial suicide.

If team sells an extra 5000 tickets a year because of those guys, that is a big if btw, the bloom will be off the rose next year if the team doesn't win, call it net $30/ticket, that's an extra $150 a game, call it $3M incremental revenue with friendlies and the odd playoff game.

Nobody knows what TV revenue is but it's almost certainly less than a million bucks a year. Say in your wildest dreams it goes to $3-5M in 3 years.

Maybe they make an extra $500K in merchandise royalties.

That's all together around $6-8 million - or maybe half of what Defoe and Bradley cost each season.

The brand value growth argument is used endlessly in every business meeting for every bold expenditure in the world. Mostly it isn't true. What are Galaxy shirt sales today like?

There is no linkage between Defoe/Bradley and a huge capital spend to increase capacity at BMO. That is a 20-40 year investment decision not backed by any business case that is TFC related. Although I would agree that those guys are a real part of Leiweke's razzle dazzle on the BMO expansion topic.

Maybe Leiweke got the board to think like Sheikhs towards TFC :).

It makes no economic sense as TFC will loose money but maybe that's the point Leiweke was making to the board, its either make peanuts because its still only MLS, or go bananas and get some headlines/branding hoopla going. I think Leiweke got MLSE thinking that TFC should be a write off because why the hell not, the Leafs cant ever make those type of international headlines and he thinks TFC could elevate the brand globally like LA did. TFC holds some intangible edge that none of the other teams have.

jabbronies
06-22-2014, 11:25 AM
It's hardly worth debating - Leiweke himself called it financial suicide.

If team sells an extra 5000 tickets a year because of those guys, that is a big if btw, the bloom will be off the rose next year if the team doesn't win, call it net $30/ticket, that's an extra $150 a game, call it $3M incremental revenue with friendlies and the odd playoff game.

Nobody knows what TV revenue is but it's almost certainly less than a million bucks a year. Say in your wildest dreams it goes to $3-5M in 3 years.

Maybe they make an extra $500K in merchandise royalties.

That's all together around $6-8 million - or maybe half of what Defoe and Bradley cost each season.

The brand value growth argument is used endlessly in every business meeting for every bold expenditure in the world. Mostly it isn't true. What are Galaxy shirt sales today like?

There is no linkage between Defoe/Bradley and a huge capital spend to increase capacity at BMO. That is a 20-40 year investment decision not backed by any business case that is TFC related. Although I would agree that those guys are a real part of Leiweke's razzle dazzle on the BMO expansion topic.



These moves IMO were a way to fix a broken, worthless brand
Sure, immediately it's a bad deal from a purely dollar for dollar financial standpoint.

But this brand is worth squat outside of BMO Field. The brand is synonyms with being losers, even in their own city. Looking into the future and keeping that perception up and those numbers you listed above do not climb - if anything they drop. And then you have nothing but another failed football club in North America.

Paying the money they did for Defoe and Bradley should be looked at as an investment in the brand.

Leiweke himself has pointed to Michael Bradley as being what TFC is all about. Bradley is a hard worker, looked upon by his peers as a very talented player and is the guy who'll help make TFC a winner.

Jermaine Defoe is just a world class striker. The guy puts the ball away with ease. Class is something TFC brand has not much of. Jermaine Defoe is the guy to bring that to this team. Him playing in Europe and doing well there and then coming back here and doing well here only helps that perception of world class football being played at BMO under the TFC brand.

I said it when he first got here right until he left. Julio Cesar is the best PR signing this club could have ever stumbled upon. Brazil's (one of the favourites to win) #1 goalie at the world cup plays for Toronto FC - who the fuck would've thought we could utter those words in this city back during the 2010 world cup?

Pookie
06-22-2014, 11:37 AM
The issue with the "TFC Brand" is that it exists within the MLS. For that reason, it's potential is capped. As the league goes so does TFC.

The TV ratings thread highlights that outside of the first two games, there has been no measurable impact in terms of these star players. The Whitecaps outdraw TV on the national scale and both teams struggle to crack the top 20 every week. Even with Defoe, the first game against Seattle wasn't the most watched. It cracked the top 3 I believe but 2 more games, without star players, outdrew it. The "record" setting game two audience didn't smash it by 6 figures, it was in the thousands.

MLS just isn't popular and with it, neither is TFC outside of a relatively small fan base.

If the Marlies brought in Patrick Kane would that have any boost for the Marlies' brand? Maybe a few more tickets sold but in the grand scheme of things they would occupy the same rung on the sports pecking order.

jabbronies
06-22-2014, 12:01 PM
The issue with the "TFC Brand" is that it exists within the MLS. For that reason, it's potential is capped. As the league goes so does TFC.

The TV ratings thread highlights that outside of the first two games, there has been no measurable impact in terms of these star players. The Whitecaps outdraw TV on the national scale and both teams struggle to crack the top 20 every week. Even with Defoe, the first game against Seattle wasn't the most watched. It cracked the top 3 I believe but 2 more games, without star players, outdrew it. The "record" setting game two audience didn't smash it by 6 figures, it was in the thousands.

MLS just isn't popular and with it, neither is TFC outside of a relatively small fan base.

If the Marlies brought in Patrick Kane would that have any boost for the Marlies' brand? Maybe a few more tickets sold but in the grand scheme of things they would occupy the same rung on the sports pecking order.

Hence why I said it's an investment in the brand - not the silver bullet that will fix the brand.

You can't expect this particular brand - TFC - to change overnight. They need to win. Plain and simple. Without that, they are still losers. Winning changes this brand into a winner - but it doesn't happen the first game of the season after being losers for a 7th straight season.

You won't see a ratings/merchandise/ticket sales change until this team wins. They need to compete. they need to show that they are a real football team and not be compared to your local OSL club. Win games. win tournaments. win championships.

Bradley and Defoe will and have made this club win. But this club needs to win more. These guys will do that - not on their own - they still need better players around them - but make no mistake these guys are not here to be losers and that is what TFC brand needs. Guys who are here to make this club win and can actually do it - not just talk about it.

So far this year they have lost the Canadian Championship. So...as I said this brand will need to do more to win more.

Bradley is young and has years left in him. His international career is far from over and he will want to prove to the world that the ol' USofA are a team to be reckon with led by himself. You've seen the drive this guy has. Once this team settles in after the world cup break, we will see Bradley really take charge of this club and lead them to be winners the rest of the season.

I bet you $20 that Defoe has his eye on playing in Euro2016. He only gets that chance by playing in the EPL and showing that he can still compete at that level. His play in MLS will just show that he can dominate at a professional level day in and day out scenario. And if they US does well in this World Cup - A.k.A better than England - that could help prove this league isn't as Mickey Mouse as people like to say it is and further help Defoe in making the England squad in the lead up games to the tournament and ultimately to that tournament. It's the David Beckham route to the national team. But he needs to also make TFC a winner.

Pookie
06-22-2014, 12:26 PM
You can't expect this particular brand - TFC - to change overnight. They need to win. Plain and simple. Without that, they are still losers. Winning changes this brand into a winner - but it doesn't happen the first game of the season after being losers for a 7th straight season.

You won't see a ratings/merchandise/ticket sales change until this team wins. They need to compete. they need to show that they are a real football team and not be compared to your local OSL club. Win games. win tournaments. win championships.



I don't disagree with you but I think there is a ceiling in terms of how far this "brand" can go. That ceiling is the broader view of the MLS in terms of North American and/or International sport. TFC could win the league but it would still be under the roof of Major League Soccer. And Major League Soccer isn't considered up there with top flight leagues.

The Marlies could be the best team in the AHL with big name players, some at their peak and some at retirement age. In the end, it's the AHL not the NHL and the latter is what matters.

jabbronies
06-22-2014, 12:43 PM
I don't disagree with you but I think there is a ceiling in terms of how far this "brand" can go. That ceiling is the broader view of the MLS in terms of North American and/or International sport. TFC could win the league but it would still be under the roof of Major League Soccer. And Major League Soccer isn't considered up there with top flight leagues.

The Marlies could be the best team in the AHL with big name players, some at their peak and some at retirement age. In the end, it's the AHL not the NHL and the latter is what matters.

Agreed - there is a ceiling. But TFC - with these moves in mind - should be looking to do what L.A. and Beckham did with pushing the league to the next level.

As this league develops and grows TFC brand needs to be at the top of that food chain in order to fully reap the benefits of when the league does raise that ceiling .

Before Beckham arrived - this league was relatively unknown in the world. Beckham's arrival caught the attention of a lot of people and it was now this small beckon of light that people would now periodically look into to see what was happening. All they really knew were Beckham, L.A. Galaxy, New York and Toronto (thanks to a bunch of ex euro players and the fans).

Enter Seattle, Lumberg, Rafa Marquez and Thierry Henri into the mix, followed by Torsten Frings and Aron Winter and now people are looking at the league on a semi regular basis - not taking a huge interest, but there are defiantly more eyeballs on the league more regularly trying to figure out why guys who were at times considered some of the worlds best players coming to MLS. Is it really only just for a paycheck or is there something else there?

I think we are into the next phase of this league wide evolution were players are now starting to come over closer to their prime. The league needs to prove that the football is getting better and it's no longer just a league where players come to die.

Because of it's schedule, it seems to be taking the shape of some sort of feeder league/warmup ground/development place for players of all professional ages.

Young guys can come here and get serious minutes for large parts of the season and still be able to take a month off and come back to their home club just in time for the start of their domestic leagues.

The services of older more skilled players - such as Defoe - can give Euro teams that extra depth without the huge financial or roster burdens.

Symbiont relationships between teams and starting to take shape and should get stronger from here on in. The TFC/QPR thing will be an interesting play to watch. Players have moved back and forth pretty freely between these teams - both young and old.

A broadcast deal in the UK/Italy to show games of the top 3-5 teams in the league could be a huge move for MLS.
It's one of the ways the UK/itialian teams became so popular in the 80's/90's with people outside of those cultural groups here in Canada.

Richard
06-22-2014, 12:44 PM
I don't disagree with you but I think there is a ceiling in terms of how far this "brand" can go. That ceiling is the broader view of the MLS in terms of North American and/or International sport. TFC could win the league but it would still be under the roof of Major League Soccer. And Major League Soccer isn't considered up there with top flight leagues.

The Marlies could be the best team in the AHL with big name players, some at their peak and some at retirement age. In the end, it's the AHL not the NHL and the latter is what matters.

You make an interesting point about a ceiling for brand because of a league's position in the world.

Celtic FC is currently ranked 37th in the world in brand value but plays in what is arguably a much inferior league than the MLS. Of course they have the European Champions League and incredible history to draw from but I found it interesting nonetheless.

I think MLS teams can break the ceiling and make top 50 if they do well in the Concacaf champions league, and play in the club world cup.

Here is the report for those interested.

http://www.brandfinance.com/images/upload/brandfinance_football_50_2014_web.pdf

jabbronies
06-22-2014, 01:23 PM
You make an interesting point about a ceiling for brand because of a league's position in the world.

Celtic FC is currently ranked 37th in the world in brand value but plays in what is arguably a much inferior league than the MLS. Of course they have the European Champions League and incredible history to draw from but I found it interesting nonetheless.

I think MLS teams can break the ceiling and make top 50 if they do well in the Concacaf champions league, and play in the club world cup.

Here is the report for those interested.

http://www.brandfinance.com/images/upload/brandfinance_football_50_2014_web.pdf


Great Read!
I think the PSG example is another good example of 1 team emerging out of a leagues shadow.

Would love to know what effect TFC's value had when Defoe/Bradley signed. Aren't they both in the top 10 MLS shirt sales? Bradley at number 3 and Defoe at number 7?
Not huge numbers like in Europe but that only should boost the value of shirt sponsorship a bit no?

Also - be curious to know what effect - if any - Landon Donavan loan to Everton and Beckham loan to Ac Milan had on the teams getting those players. Did Everton or Milan see a boost of interest from the US during that time?

Pookie
06-22-2014, 01:30 PM
You make an interesting point about a ceiling for brand because of a league's position in the world.

Celtic FC is currently ranked 37th in the world in brand value but plays in what is arguably a much inferior league than the MLS. Of course they have the European Champions League and incredible history to draw from but I found it interesting nonetheless.

I think MLS teams can break the ceiling and make top 50 if they do well in the Concacaf champions league, and play in the club world cup.

Here is the report for those interested.

http://www.brandfinance.com/images/upload/brandfinance_football_50_2014_web.pdf

It is interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Noting that LA Galaxy doesn't crack the top 50 in football. That should tell us something about the challenge that lies ahead.

Celtic and the league. Yes fair point. At the same time, without getting into religious and political undertones, Celtic may be somewhat unique in that it was founded under religious roots. It's following is likely rooted in more than just the names of the players.

ManUtd4ever
06-22-2014, 02:07 PM
The issue with the "TFC Brand" is that it exists within the MLS. For that reason, it's potential is capped. As the league goes so does TFC.

The TV ratings thread highlights that outside of the first two games, there has been no measurable impact in terms of these star players. The Whitecaps outdraw TV on the national scale and both teams struggle to crack the top 20 every week. Even with Defoe, the first game against Seattle wasn't the most watched. It cracked the top 3 I believe but 2 more games, without star players, outdrew it. The "record" setting game two audience didn't smash it by 6 figures, it was in the thousands.

MLS just isn't popular and with it, neither is TFC outside of a relatively small fan base.

If the Marlies brought in Patrick Kane would that have any boost for the Marlies' brand? Maybe a few more tickets sold but in the grand scheme of things they would occupy the same rung on the sports pecking order.

Your point is valid, but you have to be cognizant of the fact that TFC as a brand, and MLS for that matter, is still very much in it's infancy stages. The incremental growth of the league thus far in terms of it's popularity, attendance, profitability, and quality has actually been quite remarkable.

In 20 years, this conversation will have an entirely different tone.

ensco
06-22-2014, 03:12 PM
In 20 years, this conversation will have an entirely different tone.

Actually it probably won't.

MLS' biggest problem, by far, is that, while soccer is growing, MLS is a minor player and is losing market share to the big Euro leagues.

Abou Sky
06-22-2014, 04:31 PM
Actually it probably won't.

MLS' biggest problem, by far, is that, while soccer is growing, MLS is a minor player and is losing market share to the big Euro leagues.

The quality of MLS is on the rise.

My cousin in Brazil was watching games because of Cesar and he said it was much better than he expected.

I think that being a top 5 league by 2025 is not out of the question. Americans live sports, they do sports better than anyone else in the world. What we see now with Sons of Ben and Emerald City etc is the tip of the iceberg.

ensco
06-22-2014, 08:05 PM
^I used to think this but the evidence is not there. MLS TV ratings are going nowhere, it's still just filler or sports networks.

EPL and Champions League ratings are up a lot the last 5 years.

Kaz
06-22-2014, 09:36 PM
^I used to think this but the evidence is not there. MLS TV ratings are going nowhere, it's still just filler or sports networks.

EPL and Champions League ratings are up a lot the last 5 years.

I think part of the problem is the quality of the broadcasts don't compare.

Media keeps saying "MLS ratings are still behind.. but the quality of the league is growing and it'll be a top 5 league in 10 years" so people say.. oh I'll tune in then.

Football in the US is a niche hipster/neo-yuppie product and they don't watch TV unless it's ironic and/or go to the games. A side part of that is people like me who are cord cutters and because it is on cable only station I don't watch unless I go to a bar or stream.

They really do need to invest in much better camara systems for these games, but that becomes a bit of a chicken and the egg issues, will investing in the gear and people improve the product appearance on TV get people to watch, with out people watching already?

ensco
06-22-2014, 09:48 PM
^I think the minor league production problem is an effect, not a cause.

I think the big North American markets are ready to support the EPL or similar on the same scale they support the other major sports, and are willing to support MLS a little more they support the Newark Bears or the Chicago Wolves, if the big league product isn't available. But only a bit.

Pookie
06-23-2014, 06:09 AM
TV product may be a factor but so too are the domestic players. As long as MLS remains a USA developmental league player quotas will remain.

For MLS to compete with the big leagues and ensure talented domestic players choose soccer over baseball, basketball, football, even hockey... It has to pay those players like those sports do.

MLB drafts kids out of high school and hands then 6 and 7 figure signing bonuses and then sends them to college. All the big sports have big payoffs. Usually including free education and life changing salaries.

For soccer, kids are expected to train just as hard. Commit to one sport and make it their lives. A soccer player going for the pros may not have an education if they go the Academy route. They certaining won't have a life changing signing bonus and are looking at a non guaranteed 5 figure salary.

You'd have to really love the sport of soccer to choose it over other options.

Abou Sky
06-23-2014, 06:36 AM
Just about nobody who plays a sport to make money will go anywhere.

If you were to teach a kid about investment banking from age 7, then they spent 10+ hours per week for 10-12 years studying, they will make more money faster than 99.9% of their peers.

You play a sport because you love it.

Pookie
06-23-2014, 07:11 AM
Just about nobody who plays a sport to make money will go anywhere.

If you were to teach a kid about investment banking from age 7, then they spent 10+ hours per week for 10-12 years studying, they will make more money faster than 99.9% of their peers.

You play a sport because you love it.

Kids don't choose their future at 12. Parents heavily influence that decision.

Consider Ontario's new Ontario Player Development League. It is designed for top talent at the U13 level. It's 10+ months of training and costs well over $4000 per season. Big commitment. Likely give up on other sports too.

Kids may play the sport because they love it but parents write the cheques. That's a huge commitment.

And you are right. Just about anybody who plays a sport won't go anywhere. So soccer has to justify why a kid should give up an education to pursue a MLS opportunity. Or the value of 10 months of sport specific training vs a kid experiencing a variety of sports at the semi-competitive level.

Fort York Redcoat
06-23-2014, 07:17 AM
I think its more likely he'll take a few weeks off and then train with Spurs in the off season rather then a loan anywhere. The guy seems to enjoy training.

This. The loan deal sounds pretty far fetched. If he does go I don't think it would be the best for his health/fitness even with a supersub role.

We'll see.

prizby
06-23-2014, 07:35 AM
Not complaining just looking at the full picture.

If you had signed DeRo to a 4 year, full budget charge DP contract at the start of 2011

2011 - Golden Boot - MVP
- you'd be considered genius

2012 - 7 goals … 500+ fewer minutes
- you'd still be happy and hopeful of a return to form

2013 - 3 goals… 600+ fewer minutes vs 2012 and a season ending MCL injury
- uh oh. And when you realize you get no budget relief for injured players… son of a…

2014 - bench sub
- pretty difficult contract to get out of. Who signed it in the first place?



Who knows if Defoe goes this way but the risk is certainly there given that 2013 and early 2014 were far from injury free. Serious questions need to be asked about whether you can build a long term team around him and determine a contingency plan if he goes the way of so many before him.

putting dero and defoe in the same conversation is pointless...they are 2 completely different players

Phil
06-23-2014, 07:36 AM
^I used to think this but the evidence is not there. MLS TV ratings are going nowhere, it's still just filler or sports networks.

EPL and Champions League ratings are up a lot the last 5 years.

I pick this quote because its easiest to ask this question as far as it relates...

How does one measure TV ratings? If thousands, or hundreads of thousands are watching a re-broadcast single channel over the internet does that account for anything in the low ratings? If not, then there is a whole avenue of exposure occoring that the numbers don't account for at all.

Pookie
06-23-2014, 08:55 AM
putting dero and defoe in the same conversation is pointless...they are 2 completely different players

You are right. DeRo was in better health prior to his MCL injury. ;)

Canary10
06-23-2014, 09:19 AM
You are right. DeRo was in better health prior to his MCL injury. ;)

I hoped you were kidding about that. Defoe is in seriously good shape.

Daveisonfire
06-23-2014, 09:46 AM
^I used to think this but the evidence is not there. MLS TV ratings are going nowhere, it's still just filler or sports networks.

EPL and Champions League ratings are up a lot the last 5 years.

If we're talking competition for viewership between MLS and The Premiership then we should be looking at timeslots too.

Early Morning and noon (EPL) vs Early Evening/Primetime (MLS)

ensco
06-23-2014, 09:48 AM
I pick this quote because its easiest to ask this question as far as it relates...

How does one measure TV ratings? If thousands, or hundreads of thousands are watching a re-broadcast single channel over the internet does that account for anything in the low ratings? If not, then there is a whole avenue of exposure occoring that the numbers don't account for at all.

Two levels of answer

1) I really don't think TFC has engagement levels online that matter, but someone like Leafs TV online might

2) More broadly, this is essentially the problem newspapers and magazines have. There's ratings and then there's ratings that you can get paid for. Traditional media simply aren't getting paid for eyeballs, they get maybe 10% at most per click of what they make for TV ads or circulation-based ads.

Pookie
06-23-2014, 02:32 PM
Two levels of answer

1) I really don't think TFC has engagement levels online that matter, but someone like Leafs TV online might



You could start to look at things like Twitter and Facebook followers to get a sense as to popularity with those that may be predisposed to online viewing. Hard to say though as there is probably a lot of cross over between those that follow them with those products and those that still have traditional cable/satellite.

In any event, in the MLS world, TFC has about 81k followers. LA Galaxy has 161k. NYRB's 106k. Sporting KC 87k. Houston 84k. Long way to go. You could make an assumption that TFC's online engagement is no better than the average MLS team meanwhile their spending certainly is.

In Canada, Vancouver has 65k and Montreal has 55k. When you consider population and twitter followers, TFC's per capita following isn't really that significantly different.

By contrast, mainstream teams like the Jays have 446k. Raptors 463k. Leafs 582k.

Facebook would put TFC in amongst the bottom of the pack.

Super
06-23-2014, 06:45 PM
At least we beat 45k for the Argos, and 43k for the Marlies.

reggie
06-23-2014, 07:06 PM
You could start to look at things like Twitter and Facebook followers to get a sense as to popularity with those that may be predisposed to online viewing. Hard to say though as there is probably a lot of cross over between those that follow them with those products and those that still have traditional cable/satellite.

In any event, in the MLS world, TFC has about 81k followers. LA Galaxy has 161k. NYRB's 106k. Sporting KC 87k. Houston 84k. Long way to go. You could make an assumption that TFC's online engagement is no better than the average MLS team meanwhile their spending certainly is.

In Canada, Vancouver has 65k and Montreal has 55k. When you consider population and twitter followers, TFC's per capita following isn't really that significantly different.

By contrast, mainstream teams like the Jays have 446k. Raptors 463k. Leafs 582k.

Facebook would put TFC in amongst the bottom of the pack.

if we could get Justin bieber to follow TFC,we can add 250k followers...who cares its just numbers..we are 7 yrs old,talk to me in 20 yrs...

prizby
06-23-2014, 08:26 PM
You could start to look at things like Twitter and Facebook followers to get a sense as to popularity with those that may be predisposed to online viewing. Hard to say though as there is probably a lot of cross over between those that follow them with those products and those that still have traditional cable/satellite.

In any event, in the MLS world, TFC has about 81k followers. LA Galaxy has 161k. NYRB's 106k. Sporting KC 87k. Houston 84k. Long way to go. You could make an assumption that TFC's online engagement is no better than the average MLS team meanwhile their spending certainly is.

In Canada, Vancouver has 65k and Montreal has 55k. When you consider population and twitter followers, TFC's per capita following isn't really that significantly different.

By contrast, mainstream teams like the Jays have 446k. Raptors 463k. Leafs 582k.

Facebook would put TFC in amongst the bottom of the pack.

just for arguments sake; less than 6 months ago, TFC was 4th last in MLS in twitter followers; the number of facebook likes has doubled since last summer

tfcocd
06-23-2014, 11:01 PM
You make an interesting point about a ceiling for brand because of a league's position in the world.

Celtic FC is currently ranked 37th in the world in brand value but plays in what is arguably a much inferior league than the MLS. Of course they have the European Champions League and incredible history to draw from but I found it interesting nonetheless.

I think MLS teams can break the ceiling and make top 50 if they do well in the Concacaf champions league, and play in the club world cup.

Here is the report for those interested.

http://www.brandfinance.com/images/upload/brandfinance_football_50_2014_web.pdf


How deep in the list do you need to go to hit a concacaf club?

Qman
06-23-2014, 11:49 PM
There are so many crap rumor-type stories that come out of england.

We can speculate he came to MLS for any number of reasons:
- playing time (instead of the bench with spurs) and be "the man"
- have a normal life (which he can't do in london)
- TFC was the only team that would meet his salary expections

Lets face it, in MLS he has been a pure finisher and we would likely be in last place again without him.

ensco
06-24-2014, 06:43 AM
Redknapp says some Spurs players begged off England duty. Defoe says he wasn't one.

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/9359576/world-cup-jermain-defoe-insists-he-has-never-pulled-out-of-an-england-squad?

Fort York Redcoat
06-24-2014, 07:05 AM
You make an interesting point about a ceiling for brand because of a league's position in the world.

Celtic FC is currently ranked 37th in the world in brand value but plays in what is arguably a much inferior league than the MLS. Of course they have the European Champions League and incredible history to draw from but I found it interesting nonetheless.

I think MLS teams can break the ceiling and make top 50 if they do well in the Concacaf champions league, and play in the club world cup.

Here is the report for those interested.

http://www.brandfinance.com/images/upload/brandfinance_football_50_2014_web.pdf


How deep in the list do you need to go to hit a concacaf club?

They only do 50. None from our region. Later on there are Brazilian sides.

Oblio2
06-24-2014, 07:31 AM
Apparently Harry wants Defoe permanantly

http://talksport.com/football/qpr-aim-follow-ferdinand-signing-permanent-deal-defoe-14062498057

Phil
06-24-2014, 07:40 AM
Silly season is upon us. I can't understand how Defoe would move back to England especially after saying he will never play for a Prem club other than Spurs and given the cross deal with Spurs and TFC for merch.

Way more than a wage going on here.

Nevermind Defoes family being settled over here.

inheavensince07
06-24-2014, 08:03 AM
Silly season is upon us. I can't understand how Defoe would move back to England especially after saying he will never play for a Prem club other than Spurs and given the cross deal with Spurs and TFC for merch.

Way more than a wage going on here.

Nevermind Defoes family being settled over here.

re family settling .. They just have to pack and leave again..

I have heard same rumors .. He is not overly happy here and with no pick to WC team he is not motivated to stay .. He is a good EPL super sub and odds are he will be heading that route at seasons end ... Lets hope Bradley stays...

Oblio2
06-24-2014, 08:07 AM
Homesickness can be a very difficult thing to deal with...trust me , I know.
Still, purely speculation and Harry is a master at this crap

Phil
06-24-2014, 08:12 AM
re family settling .. They just have to pack and leave again..

I have heard same rumors .. He is not overly happy here and with no pick to WC team he is not motivated to stay .. He is a good EPL super sub and odds are he will be heading that route at seasons end ... Lets hope Bradley stays...

Well world cup is over, I get what you are saying though. MLSE did a lot more than move his family here though. The deal is extremely complex.

Edit: we have moved into that next phase of player - ones that other clubs want so this is going to be a rough window IMO. Papers and clubs are going to smear teams and players with moves - Defoe to QPR, Defoe to Columbus, Bradely to Arsenal etc.

So many ifs and buts. Lets wait to see credible info instead of jumping to conclusions on this. Big deals were signed and sucess is being had by the players.

Fort York Redcoat
06-24-2014, 08:45 AM
I guarantee 100% that there's a rumour of something that will happen sometime this season. It's not really going around as much as I'd thought but it may by the end of the season.

http://static.knowyourmobile.com/sites/knowyourmobilecom/files/styles/gallery_wide/public/8/81/325511.jpg?itok=qNHlj-k9

Fort York Redcoat
06-24-2014, 08:51 AM
KVtcp8XHhOo

Song of the day.

Abou Sky
06-24-2014, 09:02 AM
Seeing as we paid no transfer fee, and could come out WAY ahead, I would like to see an extra $30 +m in TFC coffers. Add that to the $6m /year we were paying Defoe and we have a superstar.

Mesut Ozil anyone?

OgtheDim
06-24-2014, 09:16 AM
If its a choice between trusting Defoe about wanting to play for England or Redknapp's recollections, I think I know who'd I'd trust.

Redknapp is a caricature.


Sooner we get playing again, the better.

Shakes McQueen
06-24-2014, 09:36 AM
Apparently Harry wants Defoe permanantly

http://talksport.com/football/qpr-aim-follow-ferdinand-signing-permanent-deal-defoe-14062498057

Article has zero information, except that this website "understands" contact was made - which, taking that info at face value as being accurate (a huge leap in and of itself), would also be true if they were only discussing a short-term loan. QPR are not going to meet the wages he currently earns here, and Defoe has said he's a Spurs devotee.

Article also doesn't claim to have any inside info into Harry's thinking or plans, beyond asserting that he's an "admirer" of Defoe.

I put the chances of Jermain leaving TFC at 5%, tops. I put the chances of a loan deal during the off-season, at something more like 50/50, if not less.

The Defoe acquisition was more than just a transfer - it was a big business relationship deal between Spurs, and TFC. A bit of "homesickness" (which I've seen no reporting of, on Defoe's part), is not going to undo all of that. I was homesick when I first went to university - but my perspective changed after several months. By the end of this MLS season, he'll have been here for another 3-4 months. And the guy's family is settled here.

This is just football transfer silly season, where any potentially attractive option (especially in a league considered "beneath" a player, like Defoe), suddenly has clubs linked to them.

BuSaPuNk
06-24-2014, 09:46 AM
^Exactly it's silly season and places will come up with stories out of there ass to make his on there site and sell papers.

When the deal for Defoe and Bradley was done and that much money being spent you have to believe that MLSE will do everything to keep them here.

World Cup is a nice bonus I Bradley and Cesar and if Defoe was going him as well. That's the extent of letting them play elsewhere that the brass would probably be willing to do.

Kaz
06-24-2014, 10:22 AM
Apparently Harry wants Defoe permanantly

http://talksport.com/football/qpr-aim-follow-ferdinand-signing-permanent-deal-defoe-14062498057

So lets see the article is full of speculation and crap.

First why would Toronto let him go. He has 7 goals in 8 appearances. Gilberto isn't scoring.

He has been a fairly nice little darling.. just not has healthy as I think many would like early on.

The next 6 weeks will see how healthy he really is.

They make Claims that he "hasn't ruled out a return to England" but of course I don't recall him ruling out a move to China either.


For this move to happen, Redknapp would have to convince MLSE to give up a proven goal scorer who fans like, a season after he arrived, with people already weary of the Front Office. Without someone already known to score well in MLS already in place. After spending a fair amount on money advertising him. At great embarrassment to MLSE, Toronto FC, and MLS as a whole.

It would cost MLSE more to bring in another player to replace Defoe, and in general it would be a bad idea. A loan deal to keep him sharp in the off season is totally understandable. A flat out trade is highly unlikely.

ryan
06-24-2014, 10:41 AM
This just in, Defoe hasn't ruled out a move to Sand Dunes FC on Planet Mars. 100% fact.

Canary10
06-24-2014, 10:49 AM
So lets see the article is full of speculation and crap.

First why would Toronto let him go. He has 7 goals in 8 appearances. Gilberto isn't scoring.

He has been a fairly nice little darling.. just not has healthy as I think many would like early on.

The next 6 weeks will see how healthy he really is.

They make Claims that he "hasn't ruled out a return to England" but of course I don't recall him ruling out a move to China either.


For this move to happen, Redknapp would have to convince MLSE to give up a proven goal scorer who fans like, a season after he arrived, with people already weary of the Front Office. Without someone already known to score well in MLS already in place. After spending a fair amount on money advertising him. At great embarrassment to MLSE, Toronto FC, and MLS as a whole.

It would cost MLSE more to bring in another player to replace Defoe, and in general it would be a bad idea. A loan deal to keep him sharp in the off season is totally understandable. A flat out trade is highly unlikely.

If Defoe really wants to go, none of the other stuff matters much.

There is a lot of BS stuff this time of year, but you really never know.

Pookie
06-24-2014, 12:28 PM
If TFC have the balls to let Defoe leave and replace him with a 26-28 year old DP that can grow with Gilberto and Bradley and the 2015 draft picks, my respect level for Tim L and Tim B will jump significantly.

No one wants to sell stock that looks like it is on the way up. But when aided by hindsight, everyone wishes they didn't hang on as long.

It would be a hugely politically charged decision that would need all kinds of spin doctors presiding over it… particularly as it would come at or around season ticket renewal time.

If the offer is on the table and they take it… those are some big ones gentlemen and well done if you go forward.

jabbronies
06-24-2014, 01:02 PM
MLS will have some say in this as well no? Don't they own the contract?

TFC07
06-24-2014, 01:10 PM
If TFC have the balls to let Defoe leave and replace him with a 26-28 year old DP that can grow with Gilberto and Bradley and the 2015 draft picks, my respect level for Tim L and Tim B will jump significantly.

No one wants to sell stock that looks like it is on the way up. But when aided by hindsight, everyone wishes they didn't hang on as long.

It would be a hugely politically charged decision that would need all kinds of spin doctors presiding over it… particularly as it would come at or around season ticket renewal time.

If the offer is on the table and they take it… those are some big ones gentlemen and well done if you go forward.

It's not that easy like that. If you sign some unknown 26-28 DP (let's be real, chances of signing high quality player in his prime is very slim), then you risk losing fans especially since Defoe is scoring goals almost every game. I don't think you understand how badly TFC needs to win games NOW to keep fanbase happy. This isn't time to rebuild!

cmonyoureds
06-24-2014, 01:22 PM
If TFC have the balls to let Defoe leave and replace him with a 26-28 year old DP that can grow with Gilberto and Bradley and the 2015 draft picks, my respect level for Tim L and Tim B will jump significantly.

No one wants to sell stock that looks like it is on the way up. But when aided by hindsight, everyone wishes they didn't hang on as long.

It would be a hugely politically charged decision that would need all kinds of spin doctors presiding over it… particularly as it would come at or around season ticket renewal time.

If the offer is on the table and they take it… those are some big ones gentlemen and well done if you go forward.

It would have to be a hell of a big name.........a "bloody big deal" of one.

Canary10
06-24-2014, 01:26 PM
Defoe is the perfect player for our style of play. We don't create a lot of chances, but give him one or two and he'll put one away. That's exactly what we need. It's clear he's a step above 99% of the players in MLS, and could no doubt still do it in EPL. I'd hate to lose him personally. Especially with the amount of youth coming in our system, we have all the tools to make the playoffs this year, challenge next year, and have young players coming up to replace the older ones after that.

Pookie
06-24-2014, 01:34 PM
Defoe is the perfect player for our style of play. We don't create a lot of chances, but give him one or two and he'll put one away. That's exactly what we need. It's clear he's a step above 99% of the players in MLS, and could no doubt still do it in EPL. I'd hate to lose him personally. Especially with the amount of youth coming in our system, we have all the tools to make the playoffs this year, challenge next year, and have young players coming up to replace the older ones after that.

Koevermans was perfect for us too. Converted a very high percentage of the few chances we got. Then he went down.

The undeniable fact is that the league offers no relief for injured players. Defoe/Koevermans is all about gambling. Odds are against you given the age of each. It's not the way to build a long term, competitive team.

Canary10
06-24-2014, 01:35 PM
Koevermans was perfect for us too. Converted a very high percentage of the few chances we got. Then he went down.

The undeniable fact is that the league offers no relief for injured players. Defoe/Koevermans is all about gambling. Odds are against you given the age of each. It's not the way to build a long term, competitive team.

Any player is gambling.

Pookie
06-24-2014, 01:35 PM
It would have to be a hell of a big name.........a "bloody big deal" of one.

Why would it have to be a big name? If you had Laba-Gilberto-Bradley as your three right now, you think fans would be pissed?

Fort York Redcoat
06-24-2014, 01:37 PM
Why would it have to be a big name? If you had Laba-Gilberto-Bradley as your three right now, you think fans would be pissed?

No I don't think as many people would be back or new fans at games. You would have to explain to these people the advantage of this trio over a household name.


That's ignoring the fact we wouldn't have Bradley without Defoe.

Canary10
06-24-2014, 01:38 PM
Why would it have to be a big name? If you had Laba-Gilberto-Bradley as your three right now, you think fans would be pissed?

Given Gilberto's output, I'd be damn pissed. Would take Defoe-Laba-Bradley though.

Pookie
06-24-2014, 01:38 PM
Any player is gambling.

Sure but with the odds in favour of the house you end up losing more times than not…

Play the games where the odds are in your favour.

Pookie
06-24-2014, 01:38 PM
Given Gilberto's output, I'd be damn pissed. Would take Defoe-Laba-Bradley though.

Well not to bring up the player that was jettisoned for Defoe but I'd take Laba-Urutti-Bradley any day of the week.

Canary10
06-24-2014, 01:40 PM
Sure but with the odds in favour of the house you end up losing more times than not…

Play the games where the odds are in your favour.

They went with a guy who is extraordinarily fit to minimize that.

I think yours is an argument more for not getting DPs. Paying anyone a high salary with the low cap is the real risk.

Pookie
06-24-2014, 01:40 PM
It's not that easy like that. If you sign some unknown 26-28 DP (let's be real, chances of signing high quality player in his prime is very slim), then you risk losing fans especially since Defoe is scoring goals almost every game. I don't think you understand how badly TFC needs to win games NOW to keep fanbase happy. This isn't time to rebuild!


So if Defoe misses other month and a bit… the fans just walk?

I agree it would take some stick handling at season ticket renewal time but they do that every year so I am confident they could pull it off with a high renewal rate.

Canary10
06-24-2014, 01:41 PM
Well not to bring up the player that was jettisoned for Defoe but I'd take Laba-Urutti-Bradley any day of the week.

Urutti was for Dike.

I'm still not sold on Urutti personally. But maybe.

Fort York Redcoat
06-24-2014, 01:43 PM
So if Defoe misses other month and a bit… the fans just walk?

I agree it would take some stick handling at season ticket renewal time but they do that every year so I am confident they could pull it off with a high renewal rate.

Are you genuinely asking that? Will people not show if we're losing and or Defoe isn't playing?

Pookie
06-24-2014, 02:03 PM
Urutti was for Dike.

I'm still not sold on Urutti personally. But maybe.

Urutti was to make room for a DP that the people of Toronto deserved. A name bigger than Koevermans.

Pookie
06-24-2014, 02:05 PM
Are you genuinely asking that? Will people not show if we're losing and or Defoe isn't playing?


He's saying that people won't come if Defoe isn't there. So, I'm asking if and when Defoe gets injured, will they not come?

My answer is that of course they will. We came many, many times without names like Defoe. All folks want is a competitive team that ownership takes seriously. Draft picks surrounded by a young, talented core is a team that I would take very seriously.

Canary10
06-24-2014, 02:07 PM
Urutti was to make room for a DP that the people of Toronto deserved. A name bigger than Koevermans.

We still had the space to sign Defoe even with Urutti. My understanding was the Nelsen did a little hissy fit over getting a player he didn't really want. But fine, I'd 100% without any question take Defoe over Urutti if that's the equation you're setting up.

Canary10
06-24-2014, 02:09 PM
He's saying that people won't come if Defoe isn't there. So, I'm asking if and when Defoe gets injured, will they not come?

My answer is that of course they will. We came many, many times without names like Defoe. All folks want is a competitive team that ownership takes seriously. Draft picks surrounded by a young, talented core is a team that I would take very seriously.

I'd like to believe that. But the fact is with Defoe on the pitch you are always going to get a moment of magic that no other player brings. That gets people to the stadium.

Red Skies At Night
06-24-2014, 02:16 PM
All folks want is a competitive team that ownership takes seriously. Draft picks surrounded by a young, talented core is a team that I would take very seriously.

Which they have now.

As for a young, talented team... where exactly is all this talented youth going to come from? And how many season's is it going to take to put such a team together? I would love to see such a thing also, but cannot see that being the methodology for building a competitive team in the short run (ie: next few years). Academy + Draft picks = probably 3 out of 10 success rate... this team needs to start competing (and winning to an extent) now, and in Defoe they have a proven goal-scorer. In the meantime the mgmt. can start to bring in young players to develop around the likes of Defoe and Bradley.

And yes, Defoe may go down injured, but he is still a better scoring option than some youngster who may or may not come good.

I think you've moved on to MLS 3.0 while the rest of us are still living in the reality of MLS 2.0

I like what you want in a team, just don't believe it's possible (at least not for a while).

Fort York Redcoat
06-24-2014, 02:58 PM
He's saying that people won't come if Defoe isn't there. So, I'm asking if and when Defoe gets injured, will they not come?

My answer is that of course they will. We came many, many times without names like Defoe. All folks want is a competitive team that ownership takes seriously. Draft picks surrounded by a young, talented core is a team that I would take very seriously.

Who is we?

We've (You and I) have seen the crowd attendance at BMO react to starpower and lack thereof. People (Not us) react to that before quality of play which takes a little more attention. Not much, but it's more than a lot of the sports fan attending can muster clearly.

Pookie
06-24-2014, 03:17 PM
I think a lot more people reacted to price gouging than those that were upset that they didn't have a star player.

cmonyoureds
06-24-2014, 03:24 PM
Why would it have to be a big name? If you had Laba-Gilberto-Bradley as your three right now, you think fans would be pissed?

Yep.
I think if you sold Defoe, the majority of TFC fans would be incredibly pissed. Especially those who bought based on hype.

Now if you're asking if the minority of people who actually pay attention to the day-to-day of this team would be pissed, I'd say only about half.

Shakes McQueen
06-24-2014, 03:53 PM
I think a lot more people reacted to price gouging than those that were upset that they didn't have a star player.

Fan apathy was growing in spite of price freezes, and even rollbacks by the FO.

The Defoe signing was meant by Leiweke as a statement of intent, and it had the desired effect - days and days of positive press about the team and the "direction", including fluffy articles about the process of wooing a superstar like Defoe to Toronto. Season ticket sales spiked, at least according to the team. You've seen some measure of reclamation, of the atmosphere from earlier years, as "casuals" start to come out again. I absolutely don't think Urruti or Laba have this same effect. Defoe-Bradley-Laba? Maybe.

As for age and injuries - Defoe is 31 years old, not 35. He's not a long-term investment, and was never meant to be - Leiweke paid way over-market to give a flagging franchise a medium-term jolt in the arm, and that is what Defoe has provided so far. Even if in that fourth year Defoe has lost a step, he will still likely be a way above-average goal scorer in this league (and he'd still be around 1.5 years younger than DeRo is right now). And for all we know, MLSE are counting on the DP rules being unrecognizeable compared what they are this moment.

As a prudent long-term roster move in a contextual vacuum, signing a 31 year old player is never the best move - but in the context of where this team was at the end of 2013? It was the kind of move they needed to make. Shore up attendance, and try to execute a lightning-quick pivot to relevancy as an MLS team, when we were considered a shambolic joke. And sure enough, Defoe is at least 50% of the reason we've got one of the best points-per-game records in the league right now (to make it apples to apples, since we have so many games in hand on pretty much everyone).

By year four, Defoe will be (even more) wildly overpaid, and possibly not a prudent use of a DP slot (again, depending on what the "DP slot" situation is in another three years), but it will be worth it if it means being in the playoff picture in the meantime, and washing away the stench that has followed this team prior to 2014. And Defoe should be dynamite for 2-3 years, provided he doesn't suffer any crippling injuries - thankfully, we signed a 31 year old who is also in superb physical condition. Robbie Keane is 33, but is still invaluable to the LAG.

Personally, I loved the Defoe signing, and it was made even more incredible by the 1-2 punch with Michael Bradley (who is absolutely the kind of DP any MLS team needs). I just genuinely don't know how those two signings could be viewed as anything other than a great success so far. The only person the jury is still out on, is the 25 year old Gilberto.

Pookie
06-24-2014, 05:24 PM
Fan apathy was growing in spite of price freezes, and even rollbacks by the FO.

The Defoe signing was meant by Leiweke as a statement of intent, and it had the desired effect - days and days of positive press about the team and the "direction", including fluffy articles about the process of wooing a superstar like Defoe to Toronto. Season ticket sales spiked, at least according to the team. You've seen some measure of reclamation, of the atmosphere from earlier years, as "casuals" start to come out again. I absolutely don't think Urruti or Laba have this same effect. Defoe-Bradley-Laba? Maybe.

As for age and injuries - Defoe is 31 years old, not 35. He's not a long-term investment, and was never meant to be - Leiweke paid way over-market to give a flagging franchise a medium-term jolt in the arm, and that is what Defoe has provided so far. Even if in that fourth year Defoe has lost a step, he will still likely be a way above-average goal scorer in this league (and he'd still be around 1.5 years younger than DeRo is right now). And for all we know, MLSE are counting on the DP rules being unrecognizeable compared what they are this moment.

As a prudent long-term roster move in a contextual vacuum, signing a 31 year old player is never the best move - but in the context of where this team was at the end of 2013? It was the kind of move they needed to make. Shore up attendance, and try to execute a lightning-quick pivot to relevancy as an MLS team, when we were considered a shambolic joke. And sure enough, Defoe is at least 50% of the reason we've got one of the best points-per-game records in the league right now (to make it apples to apples, since we have so many games in hand on pretty much everyone).

By year four, Defoe will be (even more) wildly overpaid, and possibly not a prudent use of a DP slot (again, depending on what the "DP slot" situation is in another three years), but it will be worth it if it means being in the playoff picture in the meantime, and washing away the stench that has followed this team prior to 2014. And Defoe should be dynamite for 2-3 years, provided he doesn't suffer any crippling injuries - thankfully, we signed a 31 year old who is also in superb physical condition. Robbie Keane is 33, but is still invaluable to the LAG.

Personally, I loved the Defoe signing, and it was made even more incredible by the 1-2 punch with Michael Bradley (who is absolutely the kind of DP any MLS team needs). I just genuinely don't know how those two signings could be viewed as anything other than a great success so far. The only person the jury is still out on, is the 25 year old Gilberto.

No real debate with anything you said above. I do think that prices were a major rallying point for dis-engagement with the team but there were other reasons. Performance, multiple coaching changes, Anselmi's "learning on the job." I don't really recall hearing we need a star name as part of any protests.

I won't rehash the injury thing. Some guys get lucky. Some get hurt. For every example of success there is one of challenge. Odds are odds though and Defoe was already bitten by over a month in his first campaign. Odds are not in his favour over the 3.5 years remaining.

The interesting thing for the folks saying that if Defoe goes, another big name needs to come on board.

This is sort of like buying an expensive item on the don't pay until 2015 plan. It's fun watching that TV or sitting on that coach thinking you got a great deal. Then you start paying principle plus interest for the next few years while the TV becomes outdated or the couch gets stained and it doesn't look like such a bargain after all.

Right now, people are buying tickets at relatively low prices. IF that doesn't continue and you start paying through the nose again to pay for Defoe, would you feel the same? What if Defoe can't play in turf games like Henry or suffers more frequent injuries and the team lags?

Plenty of MLS examples of teams that are very competitive at reasonable ticket prices without the marquee names. I just fall into that camp in terms of what I feel would be best for the club to be successful on and off the pitch. I never like to tie prices to winning and I don't like tying winning to one or two expensive guys when the league offers no relief.

Shakes McQueen
06-24-2014, 06:51 PM
No real debate with anything you said above. I do think that prices were a major rallying point for dis-engagement with the team but there were other reasons. Performance, multiple coaching changes, Anselmi's "learning on the job." I don't really recall hearing we need a star name as part of any protests.

Of course, because no supporter would be so vain as to protest on the grounds that "we want a star!". However, I sure saw more than one person implore MLSE to open the pocketbook to bring in a proven scorer, and Defoe is that - plus some star power.


This is sort of like buying an expensive item on the don't pay until 2015 plan. It's fun watching that TV or sitting on that coach thinking you got a great deal. Then you start paying principle plus interest for the next few years while the TV becomes outdated or the couch gets stained and it doesn't look like such a bargain after all.

All Defoe is from the fan perspective, is a DP slot. I don't care how much they are paying him, because it's not my money - all he's occupying in roster terms, is a DP slot, same as if we paid him $1 over the DP cap hit. I get that big contracts ultimately make their way back to the fans (at least in part) as increased ticket prices - but I can live with having the highest MLS ticket prices (within reason, obviously), so long as it's clear that we are getting this kind of serious monetary investment in players in return. I'm okay with being the Yankees of MLS.


Plenty of MLS examples of teams that are very competitive at reasonable ticket prices without the marquee names. I just fall into that camp in terms of what I feel would be best for the club to be successful on and off the pitch. I never like to tie prices to winning and I don't like tying winning to one or two expensive guys when the league offers no relief.

It's a fair position to take, but as teams like Los Angeles or New York have shown, you can still have success the "other" way too, so long as you fill in the cracks around those big names with competent players and a smart game plan. And there's a certain merit to having more bombastic names in your lineup, who can entertain crowds by simply being on another level from everyone else on the field.

MLSE was always going to charge one of the highest ticket prices in the league - we are a giant market, and MLSE will always squeeze whatever they can out of their customers. The least we can do is demand they spend money in return.

If all we had done this winter was sign Defoe, I'd be a little less effusive in my positivity, but with the added signing of Bradley, the whole thing became a home run to me - a bombastic, clinical scorer to jump start the return to respectability, plus a young star to build our team around for years. A "win now" guy, plus a guy you can build a rock solid foundation on.

ag futbol
06-24-2014, 07:39 PM
I'm not sure how we got on this tangent, but my $0.02 is you pay someone top dollar you shouldn't be risking that investment by having him play somewhere else in the offseason. Should be enough money to keep his full attention.

He might not be 35, but he isn't indestructible either.

MightyDM
06-24-2014, 08:59 PM
bingo
Of course, because no supporter would be so vain as to protest on the grounds that "we want a star!". However, I sure saw more than one person implore MLSE to open the pocketbook to bring in a proven scorer, and Defoe is that - plus some star power.



All Defoe is from the fan perspective, is a DP slot. I don't care how much they are paying him, because it's not my money - all he's occupying in roster terms, is a DP slot, same as if we paid him $1 over the DP cap hit. I get that big contracts ultimately make their way back to the fans (at least in part) as increased ticket prices - but I can live with having the highest MLS ticket prices (within reason, obviously), so long as it's clear that we are getting this kind of serious monetary investment in players in return. I'm okay with being the Yankees of MLS.



It's a fair position to take, but as teams like Los Angeles or New York have shown, you can still have success the "other" way too, so long as you fill in the cracks around those big names with competent players and a smart game plan. And there's a certain merit to having more bombastic names in your lineup, who can entertain crowds by simply being on another level from everyone else on the field.

MLSE was always going to charge one of the highest ticket prices in the league - we are a giant market, and MLSE will always squeeze whatever they can out of their customers. The least we can do is demand they spend money in return.

If all we had done this winter was sign Defoe, I'd be a little less effusive in my positivity, but with the added signing of Bradley, the whole thing became a home run to me - a bombastic, clinical scorer to jump start the return to respectability, plus a young star to build our team around for years. A "win now" guy, plus a guy you can build a rock solid foundation on.

ManUtd4ever
06-24-2014, 09:23 PM
Well said Shakes.

Abou Sky
06-24-2014, 10:13 PM
I'm not sure how we got on this tangent, but my $0.02 is you pay someone top dollar you shouldn't be risking that investment by having him play somewhere else in the offseason. Should be enough money to keep his full attention.

He might not be 35, but he isn't indestructible either.

Exactly my take, if they want to buy him, for great money, and that goes into an even better player (Suarez is welcome ;-)) that is another story.

prizby
06-25-2014, 12:27 AM
All Defoe is from the fan perspective, is a DP slot. I don't care how much they are paying him, because it's not my money - all he's occupying in roster terms, is a DP slot, same as if we paid him $1 over the DP cap hit. I get that big contracts ultimately make their way back to the fans (at least in part) as increased ticket prices - but I can live with having the highest MLS ticket prices (within reason, obviously), so long as it's clear that we are getting this kind of serious monetary investment in players in return. I'm okay with being the Yankees of MLS.

If Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund can live off of 110 and 111 EUROS (respectively) season tickets in the supporters section, there is absolutely no reason why TFC should charge more than $250 for a similar ticket, in my opinion.

Treating us like a traditional North American (or maybe rather Toronto) sports market and fan is exactly what went wrong the first time for TFC...the question is whether the brain trust can see and think this or whether they need to fail again before learning

Shakes McQueen
06-25-2014, 03:58 AM
If Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund can live off of 110 and 111 EUROS (respectively) season tickets in the supporters section, there is absolutely no reason why TFC should charge more than $250 for a similar ticket, in my opinion.

Treating us like a traditional North American (or maybe rather Toronto) sports market and fan is exactly what went wrong the first time for TFC...the question is whether the brain trust can see and think this or whether they need to fail again before learning

I don't disagree, but MLS teams will try to charge whatever they think the market will accept. But also, if you're MLSE, why wouldn't you treat TFC fans like a "traditional North American sports market"?

Ticket prices may have been a factor in TFC's decline, but I doubt they were even the primary cause. Our team was run like a pathetic mess for years, and became the butt of leaguewide jokes. We still have yet to even make the playoffs, let alone sniff at the MLS Cup. My own idle speculation is that the Toronto market will accept higher ticket prices than, say, Salt Lake City, if the team is delivering result. If they aren't, then fans start getting angry.

Shakes McQueen
06-25-2014, 03:59 AM
I'm not sure how we got on this tangent, but my $0.02 is you pay someone top dollar you shouldn't be risking that investment by having him play somewhere else in the offseason. Should be enough money to keep his full attention.

He might not be 35, but he isn't indestructible either.

I agree. We are paying Defoe beyond-top-dollar to be here, and the guy is in the his 30s - we shouldn't be taking stupid risks.

That said, if Defoe expresses a desire to take a loan somewhere, are MLSE in a position to tell him to sit down and shut up?

burlington Red
06-25-2014, 06:53 AM
Not sure if you have seen this previously but good article attached re Bayern Munich's pricing model:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/revealed-bayern-munich-season-ticket-1752700

Abou Sky
06-25-2014, 07:20 AM
If Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund can live off of 110 and 111 EUROS (respectively) season tickets in the supporters section, there is absolutely no reason why TFC should charge more than $250 for a similar ticket, in my opinion.

Treating us like a traditional North American (or maybe rather Toronto) sports market and fan is exactly what went wrong the first time for TFC...the question is whether the brain trust can see and think this or whether they need to fail again before learning

And how much are their TV rights worth?

Phil
06-25-2014, 07:38 AM
If Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund can live off of 110 and 111 EUROS (respectively) season tickets in the supporters section, there is absolutely no reason why TFC should charge more than $250 for a similar ticket, in my opinion.

Treating us like a traditional North American (or maybe rather Toronto) sports market and fan is exactly what went wrong the first time for TFC...the question is whether the brain trust can see and think this or whether they need to fail again before learning

You had better start comparing apples to apples instead of oranges because the whole structure of German teams is different than MLS. I don't disagree with your desire to have a low ticket price but pulling in specifics on the German league is way out of whack.

Phil
06-25-2014, 07:41 AM
So what do people think about Tim L making statements yesterday that Tornoto is begining to establish itself as the soccer capital of North America?

Does that sound like the talk of a CEO that is looking to move one of the big assets that they invested heavily in to revive the franchise?

OgtheDim
06-25-2014, 07:46 AM
So what do people think about Tim L making statements yesterday that Tornoto is begining to establish itself as the soccer capital of North America?

Does that sound like the talk of a CEO that is looking to move one of the big assets that they invested heavily in to revive the franchise?

It sounds like a guy who wants us all to pay a few hundred bucks to see a couple of European teams play.

Fort York Redcoat
06-25-2014, 08:02 AM
I think a lot more people reacted to price gouging than those that were upset that they didn't have a star player.

You are not this naive.

Trying to equate "the people" as knowledgeable support that would see the difference between progressing, developing talent of Laba and Urruti vs the majority of fanbase that equates value as wins and who to watch score is really surprising to me to see since you're usually one of the first to point out the difference between supporter mentality and the majority of people in the stadium at any one game.

I know that standpoint fits to prove your present goal to see a successful team for maximum value but it doesn't fit what's actually come before. Soldout games for a chance to see Beckham and Henry.

Phil
06-25-2014, 08:13 AM
It sounds like a guy who wants us all to pay a few hundred bucks to see a couple of European teams play.

I read it as a guy working to get this stadium expanded fast. To me though, if they were seriously thinking about moving him in a month as this report suggests then the spin should be starting now. When Defoe's name showed up on our radar it was back in October, I had heard it as a target name around August though. November was the wine and dine tour. My only point being they typically have long lead outs on big moves and don't tend to do snap reactions on this level. Especially when a board of directors is involved too.

Canary10
06-25-2014, 08:18 AM
We're about to get a significant expansion in the number of seats. I have a hard time seeing any significant price increases when TFC has 10,000 more seats to sell. Looks MLSE is banking more on volume.

Shakes McQueen
06-25-2014, 08:20 AM
We're about to get a significant expansion in the number of seats. I have a hard time seeing any significant price increases when TFC has 10,000 more seats to sell. Looks MLSE is banking more on volume.

Possible, but keep in mind prices have actually been rolled back. My guess is the extra seating results in slower price increases than we might have otherwise had, but still increases.

Canary10
06-25-2014, 08:28 AM
Possible, but keep in mind prices have actually been rolled back. My guess is the extra seating results in slower price increases than we might have otherwise had, but still increases.

Yeah, that's why I said "significant." Will be interesting to see how the extra seats play out.

prizby
06-25-2014, 09:26 AM
So what do people think about Tim L making statements yesterday that Tornoto is begining to establish itself as the soccer capital of North America?

Does that sound like the talk of a CEO that is looking to move one of the big assets that they invested heavily in to revive the franchise?

sounds like someone trying to shoot for the moon; I don't doubt Toronto can be a very big soccer market; I question whether it can be capital of North America

Alonso
06-25-2014, 09:51 AM
sounds like someone trying to shoot for the moon; I don't doubt Toronto can be a very big soccer market; I question whether it can be capital of North America

Especially when North America includes Mexico City, Estadio Azteca, and multiple famous clubs.

greatwhitenorf
06-27-2014, 11:22 AM
Defoe is definitely looking to play again in England and, as noted earlier, has solid offers. This from a cousin of his who lives in Toronto and works with my wife. He likes it here, but still has ambitions to play in England and for England. Spotlight isn't quite bright enough here. Willing to return when he's played out the string in England.

And the boy Leiweke is pretty much grinding the nubs off of everyone he deals with at MLSE. This from another source who shares country club time with MLSE execs. Leiweke apparently has no concept of personal down time or privacy. It's not that these colleagues can't cope with Leiweke when he badgers them on holidays. It's their wives and families who are getting exasperated by the relentless stream of demands and queries at all hours of day or night.

'It's like we're at war,' was one quote.

KGH
06-27-2014, 11:35 AM
And the boy Leiweke is pretty much grinding the nubs off of everyone he deals with at MLSE. This from another source who shares country club time with MLSE execs. Leiweke apparently has no concept of personal down time or privacy. It's not that these colleagues can't cope with Leiweke when he badgers them on holidays. It's their wives and families who are getting exasperated by the relentless stream of demands and queries at all hours of day or night..

And thats why MLSE has never been a winning organization. 37.5 hour work weeks get you shitty results.

OgtheDim
06-27-2014, 11:45 AM
Won't speak to the Defoe stuff.

The MLSE country club mentality has been an issue for years. Good on TL to change that. Not surprised there is flack back on this. Its a business - time to run it like one as against it being the hobby of a grocer or a construction guy. And, if Rogers / Bell people are not used to relentless demands, I would be very surprised - that has to be old MLSE people not happy with the regime change.

BuSaPuNk
06-27-2014, 11:51 AM
And thats why MLSE has never been a winning organization. 37.5 hour work weeks get you shitty results.

Agreed. A organization that hasn't had a championship in 40 plus years of it's franchises should be working constantly to get there.

Sad because diehard fans would put in more of an effort then some of the people on the MLSE payroll.

ryan
06-27-2014, 12:22 PM
Zero sympathy for any of the complainers. I'd rather who ever is not willing to just piss off and leave, than for TL/MLSE to cave in. Make em work for their fat salaries. Execs complaining about work at their country club, just full fucking stop right there.

Shakes McQueen
06-27-2014, 12:29 PM
Defoe is definitely looking to play again in England and, as noted earlier, has solid offers. This from a cousin of his who lives in Toronto and works with my wife. He likes it here, but still has ambitions to play in England and for England. Spotlight isn't quite bright enough here. Willing to return when he's played out the string in England.

And the boy Leiweke is pretty much grinding the nubs off of everyone he deals with at MLSE. This from another source who shares country club time with MLSE execs. Leiweke apparently has no concept of personal down time or privacy. It's not that these colleagues can't cope with Leiweke when he badgers them on holidays. It's their wives and families who are getting exasperated by the relentless stream of demands and queries at all hours of day or night.

'It's like we're at war,' was one quote.

If Air Canada hadn't lost my tiny violin, I'd be pulling it out right now for these executives.

Villa TFC
06-27-2014, 12:46 PM
And the boy Leiweke is pretty much grinding the nubs off of everyone he deals with at MLSE. This from another source who shares country club time with MLSE execs. Leiweke apparently has no concept of personal down time or privacy. It's not that these colleagues can't cope with Leiweke when he badgers them on holidays. It's their wives and families who are getting exasperated by the relentless stream of demands and queries at all hours of day or night.


Hmm, I thought every job every where was pretty much like that these days: people shackled to crackberries and smartphones, constantly checking emails, etc etc. Most of my friends in every field imaginable are already working 24/7 without anything remotely like the remuneration that should go with such demands. If MLSE shuts down at 5pm every day, then TL is just bringing them into the 21st century.

ensco
06-27-2014, 12:53 PM
I think opining on whether Leiweke is driving people too hard is impossible to assess from this distance, you'd need more than one data point and a better feel for questions like these:

What are pay levels like?
How easy is it to replace key people?
How badly do you need these people to like you in order to get things done?

I will say this, in truly successful organizations (not talking about sports here), the employees in general "get" and are "in sync" with the boss, and mostly are energized by off-hours work that involves the CEO.

Villa TFC
06-27-2014, 01:04 PM
As for Defoe...he's still got a lot to offer and would be desirable to a lot of clubs, but not Top 6 teams. As you move further down league tables, the budgets teams have for transfer fees get smaller, as do the amounts that they pay in wages. Defoe is paid a good salary that is highly comparable with what any team in England who would want him would be willing to pay. As we have him tied-up for several years. we could demand a decent transfer fee too. There's no guarantee that many teams would be willing to meet his demands or ours. Now, if Defoe did indeed get homesick and wanted to return to England to play, he would presumably be willing to go for less money, but we wouldn't have to sell him for less unless he has a get-out clause in his contract. I doubt if TFC would stand in the way of allowing him to return on-loan for a month or two during the winter. It helps Defoe maintain his off-season fitness and sharpness, and it doesn't hurt TFC's overseas profile and if it also keeps him happy, then why not (yeah, I know: injury risks are the downside).


As others have mentioned, the silly season is almost on us and as TFC is now on the radar of tabloids and sports rags from South America to Europe, you can expect that we are going to be linked with everyone from Messi to Muller (well not really, but you know what I mean). Most of these reporters don't know about MLS's salary cap or player limits and don't care to know. They love to stir things up and sell papers and if that means that "World Cup disappointment Wayne Rooney in Toronto FC shock-move: Influenced by former England team-mate Defoe to enjoy good life in city of mooses and Mounties" splashed on the front page, that's what they'll write...likewise, Defoe to QPR, Bradley to Juventus, Jeremy Hall to PSG etc etc.

Phil
06-27-2014, 02:04 PM
'It's like we're at war,' was one quote.

They are at war. They are fighting battles with loosing franchises.

About time some extra effort be put to fixing the mess.

C.Ronaldo
06-27-2014, 02:09 PM
And thats why MLSE has never been a winning organization. 37.5 hour work weeks get you shitty results.


heard the same thing while on the go train, a friend of a exec there. basically he said if you didn't do the work and hours you got canned. Apparently TL is a hands on guy and would do the work himself to prove points.

C.Ronaldo
06-27-2014, 02:18 PM
Zero sympathy for any of the complainers. I'd rather who ever is not willing to just piss off and leave, than for TL/MLSE to cave in. Make em work for their fat salaries. Execs complaining about work at their country club, just full fucking stop right there.

first world problems

ag futbol
06-27-2014, 06:57 PM
I think opining on whether Leiweke is driving people too hard is impossible to assess from this distance, you'd need more than one data point and a better feel for questions like these:

What are pay levels like?
How easy is it to replace key people?
How badly do you need these people to like you in order to get things done?

I will say this, in truly successful organizations (not talking about sports here), the employees in general "get" and are "in sync" with the boss, and mostly are energized by off-hours work that involves the CEO.
My guess would be there's still plenty of deadwood to toss on the fire. Takes a while for people to get the hint, but the demands of this boss are much different from the previous ones.

The tolerance for failure previously was downright embarrassing.

prizby
06-27-2014, 09:11 PM
..waiting for the pookie rant about defoe possibly being injured

Pookie
06-27-2014, 10:18 PM
Why rant on the expected?

Looks like left hamstring again. Hopefully not too serious but generally speaking minor tweaks keep guys out 2-4 weeks. It is a tough one to heal.

ManUtd4ever
06-27-2014, 10:48 PM
He finished the game, so perhaps it was just a minor flare up.

Alonso
06-28-2014, 04:40 AM
My guess would be there's still plenty of deadwood to toss on the fire. Takes a while for people to get the hint, but the demands of this boss are much different from the previous ones.

The tolerance for failure previously was downright embarrassing.


I'm still very angry about it.

I've taken it so personally that I still have an unhealthy HATE for Tom Anselmi.

Fuck I hope I never run into him because I'm worried that I will be ashamed of my behaviour after.

Pookie
06-28-2014, 11:51 AM
If Defoe can play but Gilberto's out, my vote is for Kyle Bekker to take the free kicks and sit back with some popcorn.

TFC07
06-28-2014, 12:09 PM
Given the state of economy today, there's plenty of people out there to get job done and perhaps for less money if current employees end up quitting.

Abou Sky
06-28-2014, 09:30 PM
Why rant on the expected?

Looks like left hamstring again. Hopefully not too serious but generally speaking minor tweaks keep guys out 2-4 weeks. It is a tough one to heal.

$10 says him taking off his right shoe was a sign to Nelsen 'I'm all RIGHT' and he was killing time.

Left would be 'sub me'

Pookie
06-29-2014, 07:42 AM
$10 says him taking off his right shoe was a sign to Nelsen 'I'm all RIGHT' and he was killing time.

Left would be 'sub me'

And what does the sign mean for grabbing the left hamstring on the way down… I need to GRAB a drink coach? ;)

prizby
06-29-2014, 08:56 AM
cramp

Abou Sky
06-29-2014, 10:30 PM
And what does the sign mean for grabbing the left hamstring on the way down… I need to GRAB a drink coach? ;)

Ok, extrapolating the left shoe thing might be excessive. But they were looking to kill the clock. Jermain Defoe is known to have hamstring issues, so no Ref is going to bitch too much.

Maybe it happened before and Nelsen said 'JD, you are giving me a heart attack when you go down' and Defoe said 'Ok, here is the sign'

Note that he looks towards the bench as he is taking his shoe off.

TFC/Everton
06-29-2014, 11:39 PM
No Premier League team would pay Defoe the kind of money/transfer fee we did, that's why he signed here. I have no doubt that he is interested in playing in England again, but TL would never sell him back after everything MLSE has put in to him.

He will probably be loaned short term to the PL, which I am ok with (so long as he doesn't get seriously injured).

Shakes McQueen
06-30-2014, 12:34 AM
And what does the sign mean for grabbing the left hamstring on the way down… I need to GRAB a drink coach? ;)

If he touches his knee and whistles, it means he wants to switch to a 4-5-1.

Anyway, time will tell if it was a real injury, or either a cramp/time wasting tactic. Defoe's hammys have been a bit suspect for years.

All the more reason I hope TFC resist any attempt to bring him to the EPL on a loan this winter.

Pookie
06-30-2014, 06:05 AM
Anyway, time will tell if it was a real injury, or either a cramp/time wasting tactic. Defoe's hammys have been a bit suspect for years.

All the more reason I hope TFC resist any attempt to bring him to the EPL on a loan this winter.

Exactly.

It should be a full on transfer ;)