Unite The South End

[Supporting]

After reading the pyro thread and other issues going on in the site, I was wondering why don't all the supporters groups unite in the southend. Imagine that whole south section singing the same chants together, it would be amazing. Get kings in the north and original 109 and bring them over. Also I believe if more true supporters are in the south end, it would weed out the casuals. What do you guys think?

[james]

ya there is a lot to this to explain why that can't happen, but overall, supporter sections were made back in 2007 in a couple different areas, ever since then season ticket holders have purchased tickts all through out the South End (usually always sold out), Not everyone behind the net however is part of a supporter group meaning amongst our supporter groups are hard core fans that don't want to be part of a group, casual fans, first timers, kids, parents, people who just want to be part of a fun atmosphere, girls looking for attention, people who just want to party, you name it we are all mixed in amongst the south end. In order for say 600 (throwing random numbers here out) red patch boys and another 600 USector supporters and another 200 North End Elite supporters to all move into the middle of the South End we need another 1,400 fans to give up there season seats and move else where for us to move in. That just won't happen, many people have seats and are happy where they are and will not just give up there season seats so supporter groups can take over.


The closest way we could come to achieve this is if all South End was changed to general admission, meaning no one in the South End is assigned to a seat, meaning people could move among the stand freely. The only thing supporter groups would need to do to make this work in a general admission South End, is to make sure they get there early and take up the middle of the south End together. Even then it still wouldn't be perfect as supporters in other sections outside of the south end would still not be able to just move into the South End. People who have seats say in 114, row 8 seat 6 might not have a seat assigned to them anymore but they are still assigned to the South End stand and most likely many people would still keep season tickets in the South End stand, they just might not stand in 114 anymore. But it would be a improvement as far as supporter groups in the South End are concerned, But that said I don't think BMO field will change it seats policy.

[MartinUtd]

Realistically, the club should just implement changes and if the ticket holders don't like it, they can get to the back of the line. Tough decisions need to be made to correct the mistakes of the past. We're not even a 10 year old club so there's no history and entitlement to next year's seat location.

[james]

Realistically, the club should just implement changes and if the ticket holders don't like it, they can get to the back of the line. Tough decisions need to be made to correct the mistakes of the past. We're not even a 10 year old club so there's no history and entitlement to next year's seat location.

ya but you also got to look at it, does the club care? tickets are selling, fans are singing and cheering, there are supporting groups, there are drums and flags and banners. Does the club care if supporter groups could be louder and more organized? It probably isn't really a big deal to them. Supporters might prefer it, but other fans probably don't care or think the same way supporter groups do.

[MartinUtd]

ya but you also got to look at it, does the club care? tickets are selling, fans are singing and cheering, there are supporting groups, there are drums and flags and banners. Does the club care if supporter groups could be louder and more organized? It probably isn't really a big deal to them. Supporters might prefer it, but other fans probably don't care or think the same way supporter groups do.

Given that Big Tim has expressed his desire for a roof to achieve those very means, I'd say it's something they'd consider worth looking at. That wouldn't be the case with Anselmi and co. at the helm, but it's a different era now.

[james]

Given that Big Tim has expressed his desire for a roof to achieve those very means, I'd say it's something they'd consider worth looking at. That wouldn't be the case with Anselmi and co. at the helm, but it's a different era now.

maybe, Don't get me wrong I would love a general admission stand. But not everybody does. Some people would complain, people say in 114 or 115 might hate the idea of having flags, smoke bombs and constant singing right in front of them and would complain. And sometime I think that is a concern to the club, they got to try and make everybody happy. And part of me things we are getting a roof because a lot of people in the South End want one because they are sick of getting rained on , might be a bigger reason for the roof then the noise factor.

But these are just my opinions I got no facts behind it.

[flatpicker]

I don't know if it can or will ever happen, but it would be nice to have all vocal people in one area. We've certainly discussed this in past years. I can say from my experience in 111 that there are a lot of people in 110 that are vocal (and often do the same chants as 112), but because of distance the two sections are always out of sync which results in 111 folks getting extremely confused. In a dream world, all these peeps would be in a single area and singing in unison.

[MartinUtd]

The 110 folks love their vantage point though, so they're likely to stay there no matter what happens in the south end.

[flatpicker]

I think the best chance of resolving this issue will be when they upgrade the stadium. If they close that corner between 111 and 112 then a lot of supporters from other areas could move in there and not affect other SSH's.

[Eastend]

Realistically, the club should just implement changes and if the ticket holders don't like it, they can get to the back of the line. Tough decisions need to be made to correct the mistakes of the past. We're not even a 10 year old club so there's no history and entitlement to next year's seat location.

That's easy to say, and very pretentious of you, if you're not the one being displaced. I've had my seats since day 1. I show up to (al)most every game and although I may not sing to every disjointed chant attempt, I stand up for my club. It's not my fault, nor the folks around me, that the supporters group of which I am a member of didn't pick the proper section back in '06, and yes I do think I am entitled to my seat until such a time as I don't renew it.

Dom

[GuelphStorm2007]

I believe once the Stadium is upgraded then we should see supporters all in the same area I for one support this idea big time

[james]

I don't know if it can or will ever happen, but it would be nice to have all vocal people in one area. We've certainly discussed this in past years. I can say from my experience in 111 that there are a lot of people in 110 that are vocal (and often do the same chants as 112), but because of distance the two sections are always out of sync which results in 111 folks getting extremely confused. In a dream world, all these peeps would be in a single area and singing in unison.

yup are problem always has been that people in 112 can't here 114 singing, people in 110 can't here 112 singing, 110 starts a chant but 112 doesn't notice it until 110 has already been singing for a minute and are stopping to sing and then all of a sudden 112 starts singing it. But its hard to get everyone together, if only back in 2007 we had general admission from day 1 this would not be an issue.

[MartinUtd]

That's easy to say, and very pretentious of you, if you're not the one being displaced. I've had my seats since day 1. I show up to (al)most every game and although I may not sing to every disjointed chant attempt, I stand up for my club. It's not my fault, nor the folks around me, that the supporters group of which I am a member of didn't pick the proper section back in '06, and yes I do think I am entitled to my seat until such a time as I don't renew it.

Dom

No, it's easier to pout about the problems and not be proactive in finding a solution, like I said, tough decisions have to be made. Some people will just have to stand for the team some place else.

[FluSH]

Start with learning chants and teaching those who don't know the chants. United in Voice should be the goal... not uniting the south.

[Bardown Snipes]

Once BMO field gets renovated, the seating arrangement will be changed. It only makes sense for MLSE to create a supporter section. This way, the sections would be louder and full with hard core supporters in addition to the roof that has been proposed. With the new roof, it will be louder and people will hear cheers from other sections

[Supporting]

I agree, but adding all the supporters into one area will make our chants louder and united! Also I saw the brochure that wowza created, why don't we start handing them out at games?!?

[OgtheDim]

If I was MLSE, I would make the section behind the goal of the renovated north stand a general admission area (slightly higher ticket price then the south). See what happens.

Then, if people enjoy that, do the same on the south - using demand as a shoehorn and price to move others over.

Then, watch stuff slowly creep out over both ends. The cheapskates will move and those who are vocal will stay.


And, although I know this goes against supporter culture in the world, relying upon the supporters groups in Toronto to organize within the current seating/ticketing framework is probably not going to happen.

If MLSE wants a cauldron of noise, it might have to create the base from which supporters can work.

[prizby]

i think the first goal should be having everyone in the stand before kickoff...watching people slag in 15, 20, 25 minutes after kickoff is just pure pathetic

[glaze]

i think the first goal should be having everyone in the stand before kickoff...watching people slag in 15, 20, 25 minutes after kickoff is just pure pathetic

In previous seasons, when I would walk over from a friends condo I would agree. But this year, having usually come to games straight from work, BMO is not an easy field to get to on gameday. The traffic in the area is a nightmare, then you have to find a spot to park, etc. It sure has changed my gameday experience.

[prizby]

In previous seasons, when I would walk over from a friends condo I would agree. But this year, having usually come to games straight from work, BMO is not an easy field to get to on gameday. The traffic in the area is a nightmare, then you have to find a spot to park, etc. It sure has changed my gameday experience.

weekday games i get, but you are saying the average person cannot properly manage their time to make a 5pm KO on a Saturday

[Cashcleaner]

After reading the pyro thread and other issues going on in the site, I was wondering why don't all the supporters groups unite in the southend. Imagine that whole south section singing the same chants together, it would be amazing. Get kings in the north and original 109 and bring them over. Also I believe if more true supporters are in the south end, it would weed out the casuals. What do you guys think?

The Red Patch Boys are already mostly situated in the South End. U-Sector is already mostly situated in the South End. That's a big chunk of the recognized supporters right there, and as seats open up more of our respective members are able to make the move into 112/113. If you really want to unite the South End, shouldn't this be posted on the forums of all those various smaller groups? Or is it already? I mean, we're already there and we're already pretty united.

Or is this another example of our group being asked to bring an issue to the FO on behalf of someone else? Understand that I'm not bothered with that if that's the case - I just want some no-bullshit clarification for once, because it tends to happen more than most people may think.

[__wowza]

Start with learning chants and teaching those who don't know the chants. United in Voice should be the goal... not uniting the south.

+ fucking 1.

[Pookie]

Let's say you get all the vocal folks in a middle section.

Then what? How does it become Portland just by moving folks?

[Abou Sky]

Rewind 2 years....

Who could imagine that THIS is what we would be debating?

I think that this is freaking awesome!

I have been thinking about it a bit, and I think that what we probably need to do to improve atmosphere is wait...

New younger supporters coming in and filling out the stadium and supporters sections.

[Tony Santiago]

Rewind 2 years....

Who could imagine that THIS is what we would be debating?

I think that this is freaking awesome!

I have been thinking about it a bit, and I think that what we probably need to do to improve atmosphere is wait...

New younger supporters coming in and filling out the stadium and supporters sections.

This has been a topic since just about day 1. Nothing new here.

[mook-life]

+ fucking 1.
I'd rather start uniting the south in voice before we start unitin the whole stadium in voice besides the whole stadium singing will never happen

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Im in 117 was generally happy how things were there for a long while (first 5 or so seasons), there were chants, not necessarily organized but organic and everyone in our stand and most of the west side would get going. now its mostly tourists and the chanting is sporadic at best. Wouldnt mind a capo sorta, not a fan of General admission. We've had the same seats since the second day of tickets going on sale and I want these seats until im dead. Even then i expect my grandkids to take them over.

[ryan]

weekday games i get, but you are saying the average person cannot properly manage their time to make a 5pm KO on a Saturday

cause of all the delays, subway being down, construction....took me 2 fucking hours to get downtown from just Eglinton. Could have walked faster. Hard to gauge THAT much extra time being needed. Thankfully for me, I was shooting to be there well early, but the non supporter is not aiming for that.

[Fort York Redcoat]

It won't be up to us ultimately whether or not TFC wants to have more than a regular relocation. If the question is if people would move to all stand together or remain where they are because they enjoy what they've done and are doing I think the answer is obvious.

[brad]

No, it's easier to pout about the problems and not be proactive in finding a solution, like I said, tough decisions have to be made. Some people will just have to stand for the team some place else.

Playing devils advocate here - but how would you feel if that tough decision was you and the rest of the vocal supporters getting relocated to a different area of the stadium, without any say in where?

[brad]

Once BMO field gets renovated, the seating arrangement will be changed. It only makes sense for MLSE to create a supporter section. This way, the sections would be louder and full with hard core supporters in addition to the roof that has been proposed. With the new roof, it will be louder and people will hear cheers from other sections

This is the only way to do it IMHO. Create a new supporters section, in a new areas allow those that want to unify in it to move to it. Moving seats should be a choice, and not forced on anyone - on either side.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Once BMO field gets renovated, the seating arrangement will be changed. It only makes sense for MLSE to create a supporter section. This way, the sections would be louder and full with hard core supporters in addition to the roof that has been proposed. With the new roof, it will be louder and people will hear cheers from other sections

Wrong.

This will mean to buy tickets in this section the team will give you a warning much like they have signage in the stands saying what may be happening in the section. That does not create hardcore support. It creates people who tick a box to get cheap tickets. There will be no interview process to ensure the desired result is achieved.
Also the roof design as it is now WILL NOT help acoustics. It's far to high and not closed off at the back. It won't even cover half the stand from the elements. Ya know, if one cares about that sort of thing...

[MartinUtd]

Playing devils advocate here - but how would you feel if that tough decision was you and the rest of the vocal supporters getting relocated to a different area of the stadium, without any say in where?

I'd be bummed out, I admit it. But I also don't feel any special entitlements just because.

I was a season ticket holder for the first 5 seasons so it's not like I haven't been in the position.

[ryan]

Wrong.

This will mean to buy tickets in this section the team will give you a warning much like they have signage in the stands saying what may be happening in the section. That does not create hardcore support. It creates people who tick a box to get cheap tickets. There will be no interview process to ensure the desired result is achieved.
Also the roof design as it is now WILL NOT help acoustics. It's far to high and not closed off at the back. It won't even cover half the stand from the elements. Ya know, if one cares about that sort of thing...

I think it'll add, albeit minimally, not what people are hoping/expecting.

[Abou Sky]

This has been a topic since just about day 1. Nothing new here.

Ya, but 2 years ago, we were 1-9

[Phil]

To be fair, they haven't finalized the design of the roof or even configuration of the stands.

I was supposed to be at a meeting last week but bailed due to the lovely traffic on a weekday game night. LOL

Hopefully I will have an update soon on the coming changes and what it may mean for our group.

[TorontoGooner]

From my experience of visiting various MLS grounds with GA, the atmopshere is 10x better than BMO. The fans in Portland have a routine, they get to the stadium the same time every week to get the same spot. As a kid growing up I stood on the North Bank at Arsenal and was in the same spot every week. What this means is you get the connection with those around you, and you're more willing to stand up. Also, the club would like the idea of GA from business perspective. Everyone who wants their usual spot will get there earlier, and with not much else to do will buy beer. And lots of it. More beer = more singing (sorry it does, and I apologise to my neighbours for it when I stumble home from games)

I totally get that there will be those that oppose to moving, and I respect that. But if those same people then bemoan the atmosphere a few years down the line (if GA isn't implemented), that would be pretty rich of them. There's way too many people sat down in the South Stand, not joining in. GA weeds out the tourists and those who turn up late to games on a frequent basis. Change is needed before this becomes a real problem.

As for the point earlier raised about 'how about we all unite in singing'? Well, we can't, because the whole setup is rather disjointed at the moment. There's pockets of 100 or so people all doing completely different things. Uniting all the boisterous fans in the middle 114/115 will help that. Even just three or four blocks of GA would help.

Again, I get the arguments against GA and people not willing to move their seats. But its a supporters section, and unless we do something within the next year or so, it won't be much of one.

[TorontoGooner]

Wrong.

This will mean to buy tickets in this section the team will give you a warning much like they have signage in the stands saying what may be happening in the section. That does not create hardcore support. It creates people who tick a box to get cheap tickets. There will be no interview process to ensure the desired result is achieved.
Also the roof design as it is now WILL NOT help acoustics. It's far to high and not closed off at the back. It won't even cover half the stand from the elements. Ya know, if one cares about that sort of thing...

It will help acoustics, it really will. The noise will roll up towards the back of the stand and then get pushed down again. I for one can not wait to have a roof. Mark my words, the atmosphere will become incredible. But we have to do this right. Moving those together who want to sing will help.

If you don't think it won't create hardcore support to have GA, then take a look at Portland, Seattle, San Jose and even Montreal Impact. We're a long way behind those guys these days

[Fort York Redcoat]

It will help acoustics, it really will. The noise will roll up towards the back of the stand and then get pushed down again. I for one can not wait to have a roof. Mark my words, the atmosphere will become incredible. But we have to do this right. Moving those together who want to sing will help.

If you don't think it won't create hardcore support to have GA, then take a look at Portland, Seattle, San Jose and even Montreal Impact. We're a long way behind those guys these days


Gooner as the plans state (as of now and we can hope they change) The roof HAS NO BACK. No sound to roll back. It's higher than necessary for us since they want the stands to move back for gridiron.

So when you look at other clubs stadia remember we're not getting what they have. Not unless plans change.

[Pookie]

From my experience of visiting various MLS grounds with GA, the atmopshere is 10x better than BMO. The fans in Portland have a routine, they get to the stadium the same time every week to get the same spot. As a kid growing up I stood on the North Bank at Arsenal and was in the same spot every week. What this means is you get the connection with those around you, and you're more willing to stand up. Also, the club would like the idea of GA from business perspective. Everyone who wants their usual spot will get there earlier, and with not much else to do will buy beer. And lots of it. More beer = more singing (sorry it does, and I apologise to my neighbours for it when I stumble home from games)

I totally get that there will be those that oppose to moving, and I respect that. But if those same people then bemoan the atmosphere a few years down the line (if GA isn't implemented), that would be pretty rich of them. There's way too many people sat down in the South Stand, not joining in. GA weeds out the tourists and those who turn up late to games on a frequent basis. Change is needed before this becomes a real problem.

As for the point earlier raised about 'how about we all unite in singing'? Well, we can't, because the whole setup is rather disjointed at the moment. There's pockets of 100 or so people all doing completely different things. Uniting all the boisterous fans in the middle 114/115 will help that. Even just three or four blocks of GA would help.

Again, I get the arguments against GA and people not willing to move their seats. But its a supporters section, and unless we do something within the next year or so, it won't be much of one.


The biggest issue is ticket prices. People go to the south end for a variety of reasons but price is the main variable. Imagine being asked $1,400 for a pair with the vantage point of the south end? That's what MLSE is asking North end buyers to pay.

Where do you think they will relocate to if given the change?

With the DPs and the history of MLSE, this price pressure isn't going to change any time soon.

[jabbronies]

The biggest issue is ticket prices. People go to the south end for a variety of reasons but price is the main variable. Imagine being asked $1,400 for a pair with the vantage point of the south end? That's what MLSE is asking North end buyers to pay.

Where do you think they will relocate to if given the change?

With the DPs and the history of MLSE, this price pressure isn't going to change any time soon.

The upper portion of the north end is pretty decent though in terms of vantage point - but you really do have to be higher up.

it gives you an NHL94 view. Pretty interesting way to watch the match.

[Pookie]

^ it is. But at 2-3x the prices of the south?

Folks aren't going to accept being relocated to a section (any section) that forces them to pay double, triple or worse. That is the biggest barrier.

[Pint]

Combining of groups won't happen... As far as i can see the groups get along reasonably well and are willing to help each other out when necessary but the appetite to combine is not their from what I see.

Now in voice is a different story but as has been pointed out already it is hard to hear what is going on in other sections. Even in the same section it can be hard to hear what is going on depending on your distance from the Capo.

We will see what happens in a new stadium in terms of supporter areas but that's a conversation that can take place once a design/plan is available

[Jack]

Building that north stand could have been a great opportunity to unite supporters in one section, as has been done by many other teams around the league in the past decade or so. They aren't really any better seats than the south end in terms of sight lines, other than being a bit higher, so they could have been priced the same. Of course, it was managed by Anselmi and PB, who were more concerned about filling it with people willing to pay the higher price than about setting up a unified north stand and fostering a better support environment. No one realized what was going to happen in Toronto back at the beginning, so it's understandable that the support was jammed into the southeast corner and scattered in other parts of the stadium, but this was a missed chance to correct that, in my eyes.

It would have been something. I think the higher vantage point provided by those seats would make it seem like the support was right on top of the pitch. The opposing keeper would feel like we were right on top of his neck and when attacking, opponents would feel like they were attacking a seething mob looming over the goal. The higher stand would also project the chants to the rest of the stadium a little better.

It's a dream I've had more than once...

As for uniting the groups, you don't need to have everyone under the same group, just working together. Cooperation exists, for the most part, amongst the groups. It's about getting everyone together in the same areas. I'm sure everyone remembers the two massive Columbus trips from a few years back and how great it was to get large groups of supporters all in one area of the stadium.

[Alonso]

I believe once the Stadium is upgraded then we should see supporters all in the same area I for one support this idea big time


Yeah I agree, and somewhere in the middle at a discounted rater like DC United would be a great gesture from the team. A pipe dream for sure, but you never know... maybe middle top on the east end if they add seating there. I know a lot of supporters like being closer to the action, but the view of the game isn't great right at field level.

[reggie]

Building that north stand could have been a great opportunity to unite supporters in one section, as has been done by many other teams around the league in the past decade or so. They aren't really any better seats than the south end in terms of sight lines, other than being a bit higher, so they could have been priced the same. Of course, it was managed by Anselmi and PB, who were more concerned about filling it with people willing to pay the higher price than about setting up a unified north stand and fostering a better support environment. No one realized what was going to happen in Toronto back at the beginning, so it's understandable that the support was jammed into the southeast corner and scattered in other parts of the stadium, but this was a missed chance to correct that, in my eyes.

It would have been something. I think the higher vantage point provided by those seats would make it seem like the support was right on top of the pitch. The opposing keeper would feel like we were right on top of his neck and when attacking, opponents would feel like they were attacking a seething mob looming over the goal. The higher stand would also project the chants to the rest of the stadium a little better.

It's a dream I've had more than once...

As for uniting the groups, you don't need to have everyone under the same group, just working together. Cooperation exists, for the most part, amongst the groups. It's about getting everyone together in the same areas. I'm sure everyone remembers the two massive Columbus trips from a few years back and how great it was to get large groups of supporters all in one area of the stadium.

great idea,now is the time to do it,has ther been any talks with TL about this?

[prizby]

cause of all the delays, subway being down, construction....took me 2 fucking hours to get downtown from just Eglinton. Could have walked faster. Hard to gauge THAT much extra time being needed. Thankfully for me, I was shooting to be there well early, but the non supporter is not aiming for that.

which would beg the question, why are they in the supporters end then ;)
Im in 117 was generally happy how things were there for a long while (first 5 or so seasons), there were chants, not necessarily organized but organic and everyone in our stand and most of the west side would get going. now its mostly tourists and the chanting is sporadic at best. Wouldnt mind a capo sorta, not a fan of General admission. We've had the same seats since the second day of tickets going on sale and I want these seats until im dead. Even then i expect my grandkids to take them over.

your going to lose the seat next year; you'll get the same area sort of, but i figure they sections are going to change a bit with filling in of the corners and rebuilt stand


Playing devils advocate here - but how would you feel if that tough decision was you and the rest of the vocal supporters getting relocated to a different area of the stadium, without any say in where?

for GA..sure


^ it is. But at 2-3x the prices of the south?

Folks aren't going to accept being relocated to a section (any section) that forces them to pay double, triple or worse. That is the biggest barrier.

i don't think anyone disagrees that MLSE has screwed up royally on its pricing strategy for years; rebuilt stands will give themselves a chance to try something new


Building that north stand could have been a great opportunity to unite supporters in one section, as has been done by many other teams around the league in the past decade or so. They aren't really any better seats than the south end in terms of sight lines, other than being a bit higher, so they could have been priced the same. Of course, it was managed by Anselmi and PB, who were more concerned about filling it with people willing to pay the higher price than about setting up a unified north stand and fostering a better support environment. No one realized what was going to happen in Toronto back at the beginning, so it's understandable that the support was jammed into the southeast corner and scattered in other parts of the stadium, but this was a missed chance to correct that, in my eyes.

It would have been something. I think the higher vantage point provided by those seats would make it seem like the support was right on top of the pitch. The opposing keeper would feel like we were right on top of his neck and when attacking, opponents would feel like they were attacking a seething mob looming over the goal. The higher stand would also project the chants to the rest of the stadium a little better.

It's a dream I've had more than once...


boom spot on...they are steeper which makes overhead tifos better as well...i still remember the one game in the rain against vancouver when we all marched to the north and supported their in the 2nd half and it was one of the best times i've had at a tfc game to date

[Phil]

great idea,now is the time to do it,has ther been any talks with TL about this?

Believe it or not TL isn't really the driver on this.

But yes, talks are prgressing with the people responsible at MLSE.

[Pookie]

which would beg the question, why are they in the supporters end then ;)

Have you checked the price of tickets outside the south?

[reggie]

Believe it or not TL isn't really the driver on this.

But yes, talks are prgressing with the people responsible at MLSE.

thx phil...so do you think there will be changes for the good?

[Pookie]

Building that north stand could have been a great opportunity to unite supporters in one section, as has been done by many other teams around the league in the past decade or so. They aren't really any better seats than the south end in terms of sight lines, other than being a bit higher, so they could have been priced the same. Of course, it was managed by Anselmi and PB, who were more concerned about filling it with people willing to pay the higher price than about setting up a unified north stand and fostering a better support environment. No one realized what was going to happen in Toronto back at the beginning, so it's understandable that the support was jammed into the southeast corner and scattered in other parts of the stadium, but this was a missed chance to correct that, in my eyes.

It would have been something. I think the higher vantage point provided by those seats would make it seem like the support was right on top of the pitch. The opposing keeper would feel like we were right on top of his neck and when attacking, opponents would feel like they were attacking a seething mob looming over the goal. The higher stand would also project the chants to the rest of the stadium a little better.

It's a dream I've had more than once...

As for uniting the groups, you don't need to have everyone under the same group, just working together. Cooperation exists, for the most part, amongst the groups. It's about getting everyone together in the same areas. I'm sure everyone remembers the two massive Columbus trips from a few years back and how great it was to get large groups of supporters all in one area of the stadium.

So how do you handle the financial aspect to a move like this?

Going rate in the north end is $1,400 for a pair. Are SG's going to pay that?

Are relocated folks (to the south) going to see their prices drop to the $500 mark? If not, they could be paying nearly 3x as much as their neighbour that didn't relocate.

All could be done if you simply make the price points level. But considering Defoe and Bradley, MLSE and the fact that North End seats have gone up by 19% since 2012... I wouldn't be too optimistic about that.

[TorontoGooner]

The biggest issue is ticket prices. People go to the south end for a variety of reasons but price is the main variable. Imagine being asked $1,400 for a pair with the vantage point of the south end? That's what MLSE is asking North end buyers to pay.

Where do you think they will relocate to if given the change?

With the DPs and the history of MLSE, this price pressure isn't going to change any time soon.

I'm in the North End and I only paid a grand for two seasons. I agree with the relocation issue, but why not just have three sections that are GA?

[Phil]

thx phil...so do you think there will be changes for the good?

I hope so but things are very dynamic with the Argos not being in the picture at the moment and with the provincial election coming up.

Once we pass that it should become much clearer.

[Pookie]

I'm in the North End and I only paid a grand for two seasons. I agree with the relocation issue, but why not just have three sections that are GA?

New prices are $704/seat. Get ready for 2015.

[reggie]

New prices are $704/seat. Get ready for 2015.

how do you know that?

[Pint]

how do you know that?

Probably talking about New SSh price compared to renewal price. Light grey was 225 renewal and ~360 for new SSH

[OgtheDim]

So how do you handle the financial aspect to a move like this?

Going rate in the north end is $1,400 for a pair. Are SG's going to pay that?

...

The amount of bodies in the north is nowhere near the 5K of people they are talking about putting in there.

[reggie]

ic..thx,TL did say if we make the playoff prices will go up..

[Phil]

ic..thx,TL did say if we make the playoff prices will go up..

I have had some talks about that as well. But nothing firm just trying to keep the increases as low as possible and stress the need to keep them affordable.

[Jack]

So how do you handle the financial aspect to a move like this?

Going rate in the north end is $1,400 for a pair. Are SG's going to pay that?

Are relocated folks (to the south) going to see their prices drop to the $500 mark? If not, they could be paying nearly 3x as much as their neighbour that didn't relocate.

All could be done if you simply make the price points level. But considering Defoe and Bradley, MLSE and the fact that North End seats have gone up by 19% since 2012... I wouldn't be too optimistic about that.

My post was a "coulda, shoulda, woulda" sort of thing. That's why I said:

They aren't really any better seats than the south end in terms of sight lines, other than being a bit higher, so they could have been priced the same. Of course, it was managed by Anselmi and PB, who were more concerned about filling it with people willing to pay the higher price than about setting up a unified north stand and fostering a better support environment.

and

this was a missed chance

As for pricing, those 1400 seats could have easily accommodated 1400 supporters at the same price as the south, but they marketed them at a different price point, despite not being that much better than the seats in 114, 115 and 116. I imagine they sold the seats, but that stand was pretty empty the past few years.

Now that we've got another renovation on the cards, it's another chance to get a united supporters end behind the goal. Provided the supporters are actually on board (which you never know).

We have seen that there are many who'd rather keep their current location, but if the pricing is the same and I get a similar location (if they don't do GA), then I'm all for moving up there and getting everyone in on it.

[prizby]

I have had some talks about that as well. But nothing firm just trying to keep the increases as low as possible and stress the need to keep them affordable.

stress that this is not a TML crowd;

wish they'd price us like Bayern Munich, not Arsenal (in the future)

[FluSH]

Rewind 2 years....

Who could imagine that THIS is what we would be debating?

I think that this is freaking awesome!

I have been thinking about it a bit, and I think that what we probably need to do to improve atmosphere is wait...

New younger supporters coming in and filling out the stadium and supporters sections.

Every year we talk about this! We've talked about this all the time... I'm not sure about the other boards but certainly here. We should justgroup all threads into one lol

[Phil]

stress that this is not a TML crowd;

wish they'd price us like Bayern Munich, not Arsenal (in the future)

I have seen some progress in the talks, remember its the TML crowd running the show on the ticket end now. So its not easy.

[prizby]

Every year we talk about this! We've talked about this all the time... I'm not sure about the other boards but certainly here. We should justgroup all threads into one lol

#AllForOne

[Pookie]

how do you know that?

Yes should have clarified. New season ticket holders pay $704. Lots of speculation as to where renewal pricing will fall next year. Many are betting close to new season ticket holder prices.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yes should have clarified. New season ticket holders pay $704. Lots of speculation as to where renewal pricing will fall next year. Many are betting close to new season ticket holder prices.

So I guess the many that walked away from seasons have more reasons to come back now that the new STH prices will be much the same, huh?

[ManUtd4ever]

Unite us!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mP441hLo064/TG_EeAcy6sI/AAAAAAAAA2Y/Ke2teV6JgaI/s400/995BVH_Mel_Gibson_085.jpg

[Bardown Snipes]

Wrong.

This will mean to buy tickets in this section the team will give you a warning much like they have signage in the stands saying what may be happening in the section. That does not create hardcore support. It creates people who tick a box to get cheap tickets. There will be no interview process to ensure the desired result is achieved.
Also the roof design as it is now WILL NOT help acoustics. It's far to high and not closed off at the back. It won't even cover half the stand from the elements. Ya know, if one cares about that sort of thing...

A roof would help, it cages in the sound and reflects it back onto the field instead of just being let out into the air. This way, many sections will hear eachother cheering and it will be far louder. If you look at any stadium with a roof, it is way louder because the sound is reflected. If you ever go to Leaf games, the roof is what keeps the sound in the building and it echoes inside (its the same principle).

[OgtheDim]

There are sounds at Leaf games?

[brad]

So I guess the many that walked away from seasons have more reasons to come back now that the new STH prices will be much the same, huh?

I'll continue to take my chances on the secondary market. So far that is proving to be a way cheaper option for me that it would have been to become an SSH again at the entry level price points.

I'm also going to hedge my bets on prices on the secondary market remaining low (or even dropping off) once the supply increase.

[Flint]

First off, there are different groups for a reason. Everyone sees support differently and that's okay. Groups are split all over the world but they still work well together. That's what I'd like to see here. Every group working together recognized under one banner (South Stand Supporters, whatever) while still holding onto their individual identity

You can also put me into the pro GA crowd. The only reason being growth.

As much as the SG's are comfortable in 112-114, the current setup is not allowing any growth and to grow, things have to change.

Think of it from a newcomers perspective. How difficult is it for any newcomer to just join a group and become involved in the stands? When I first joined RPB, I bought my membership, a year later I helped on my first banner, and by the next year I finally was regularly in 112. It's not an easy process for anyone who doesn't necessarily have the drive that I did at the get go. GA would allow all current like minded supporters to be together without the hassle as well as make it MUCH easier for any newcomer who has any interest to go where the action is and learn how to become a part of it.

At one point we were the top supporters in MLS. Now we are at the bottom 1/3 easily because we have not evolved. To get back to the top we must change.

[Pookie]

So I guess the many that walked away from seasons have more reasons to come back now that the new STH prices will be much the same, huh?

If you consider being amongst the highest in MLS with no resale value, then yeah I guess ;)

I personally am very comfortable seeing the team on my own terms. Sarcity is not an issue. Easiest sold out ticket in town to get.

[mook-life]

First off, there are different groups for a reason. Everyone sees support differently and that's okay. Groups are split all over the world but they still work well together. That's what I'd like to see here. Every group working together recognized under one banner (South Stand Supporters, whatever) while still holding onto their individual identity

You can also put me into the pro GA crowd. The only reason being growth.

As much as the SG's are comfortable in 112-114, the current setup is not allowing any growth and to grow, things have to change.

Think of it from a newcomers perspective. How difficult is it for any newcomer to just join a group and become involved in the stands? When I first joined RPB, I bought my membership, a year later I helped on my first banner, and by the next year I finally was regularly in 112. It's not an easy process for anyone who doesn't necessarily have the drive that I did at the get go. GA would allow all current like minded supporters to be together without the hassle as well as make it MUCH easier for any newcomer who has any interest to go where the action is and learn how to become a part of it.

At one point we were the top supporters in MLS. Now we are at the bottom 1/3 easily because we have not evolved. To get back to the top we must change.


I think he is bang on

[FluSH]

I'd rather start uniting the south in voice before we start unitin the whole stadium in voice besides the whole stadium singing will never happen

Yeah when I said united in voice it's united as supporters in voice... those of us in the south including 111/110... I'm not crazy enough to think that we can get the whole stadium signing together

[FluSH]

First off, there are different groups for a reason. Everyone sees support differently and that's okay. Groups are split all over the world but they still work well together. That's what I'd like to see here. Every group working together recognized under one banner (South Stand Supporters, whatever) while still holding onto their individual identity

You can also put me into the pro GA crowd. The only reason being growth.

As much as the SG's are comfortable in 112-114, the current setup is not allowing any growth and to grow, things have to change.

Think of it from a newcomers perspective. How difficult is it for any newcomer to just join a group and become involved in the stands? When I first joined RPB, I bought my membership, a year later I helped on my first banner, and by the next year I finally was regularly in 112. It's not an easy process for anyone who doesn't necessarily have the drive that I did at the get go. GA would allow all current like minded supporters to be together without the hassle as well as make it MUCH easier for any newcomer who has any interest to go where the action is and learn how to become a part of it.

At one point we were the top supporters in MLS. Now we are at the bottom 1/3 easily because we have not evolved. To get back to the top we must change.

I hear what you are saying but the first mistake is believing that supporters are like minded people... we in Toronto are not. In fact we are very different. GA would be pure chaos and lawlessness leading into fights like u have never seen. I am strongly against GA and in my opinion its a cop out for people that do not wish to take the time to teach their neighbour how to chant and bring them into the fold. We in RPB have brought many ppl into the fold... I dare say more so than any other group out there!

[Flint]

I hear what you are saying but the first mistake is believing that supporters are like minded people... we in Toronto are not. In fact we are very different. GA would be pure chaos and lawlessness leading into fights like u have never seen. I am strongly against GA and in my opinion its a cop out for people that do not wish to take the time to teach their neighbour how to chant and bring them into the fold. We in RPB have brought many ppl into the fold... I dare say more so than any other group out there!

I didn't say that we were he same. Actually, I said the opposite that there is a reason there are different groups. That we are all different. That doesn't mean we can't all work together as TFC supporters while keeping our own identity.

I think your idea of GA is a little extreme. While there would be growing pains, I don't think it would turn into complete caos. What it would do is eliminate some major arguments. People who complain about flags because they are blocking their view and their only argument is "we've had these seats since day one" when you tell them there are many unobstructed views in the stadium. People who scalped tickes and get security to move supporters out of their seats then sitting down and taking pictures all game effectively killing support. I don't think it's a cop out as you say. It would allow people who feel alienated from support in 114-117 to finally join in if they please. It would also allow new people to buy a ticket in the south and immediately become a part of everything. Again I site myself as it was very difficult to finally feel like I was a part of everything even as determined as I was. It took me at least 2 years to feel like a real part of things. It can't happen like that. We have to get new blood instantly involved and that will happen best with GA.

I agree RPB has been the most successful in bringing many people in. It was the first group I turned to when I got interested. But you also have to look at it as it is. The core of support hasn't grown out of 112 since the beginning and has actually contracted to the lower portion of 112. The upper portion is mostly tourists (I saw this first hand on Saturday).

To grow the support, the way it's been done has to change or else Toronto support will be left in the dust. We can't teach new, more complex chants to people if they arent singing the simple ole's.

[prizby]

I hear what you are saying but the first mistake is believing that supporters are like minded people... we in Toronto are not. In fact we are very different. GA would be pure chaos and lawlessness leading into fights like u have never seen. I am strongly against GA and in my opinion its a cop out for people that do not wish to take the time to teach their neighbour how to chant and bring them into the fold. We in RPB have brought many ppl into the fold... I dare say more so than any other group out there!

when your neighbours have repeatedly said they have no interest in joining in and are only their because the tickets are cheap and they don't care to be supporters, it gets really hard to create a change

[FluSH]

when your neighbours have repeatedly said they have no interest in joining in and are only their because the tickets are cheap and they don't care to be supporters, it gets really hard to create a change

You can't force people into a culture... that will gradually come..

[FluSH]

I didn't say that we were he same. Actually, I said the opposite that there is a reason there are different groups. That we are all different. That doesn't mean we can't all work together as TFC supporters while keeping our own identity.

I think your idea of GA is a little extreme. While there would be growing pains, I don't think it would turn into complete caos. What it would do is eliminate some major arguments. People who complain about flags because they are blocking their view and their only argument is "we've had these seats since day one" when you tell them there are many unobstructed views in the stadium. People who scalped tickes and get security to move supporters out of their seats then sitting down and taking pictures all game effectively killing support. I don't think it's a cop out as you say. It would allow people who feel alienated from support in 114-117 to finally join in if they please. It would also allow new people to buy a ticket in the south and immediately become a part of everything. Again I site myself as it was very difficult to finally feel like I was a part of everything even as determined as I was. It took me at least 2 years to feel like a real part of things. It can't happen like that. We have to get new blood instantly involved and that will happen best with GA.

I agree RPB has been the most successful in bringing many people in. It was the first group I turned to when I got interested. But you also have to look at it as it is. The core of support hasn't grown out of 112 since the beginning and has actually contracted to the lower portion of 112. The upper portion is mostly tourists (I saw this first hand on Saturday).

To grow the support, the way it's been done has to change or else Toronto support will be left in the dust. We can't teach new, more complex chants to people if they arent singing the simple ole's.

I know many in the uppers of 112, but if you say they are tourists it only proves to the point that even with tourists a supporter group can make them chant... Last Wednesday was a prime example as these tourist chicks came into 112.. actual touristas from another section ( God knows where ) infiltrated the section just to chant... we had to kick them out because of disorderly conduct.

Disorderly conduct is what you will get with GA. Growing pains should be building a culture of support with patience... not let's have chaos and fights with GA to see who remains and take it from there. If people want to be like club X in Europe now... then I'm sorry.... European supporter culture is not only very homogeneous in politics and race, but it was also not built in such a short term.

[FluSH]

Bottom line... just like the girls who invaded our section last Wednesday just to chant, if you are in 117-114 then ppl should levitate to you and come down to join u where ever you are... that's how we have brought in many into the fold... many supporters that have done great things for the club and many more will follow.

[Cashcleaner]

I hear what you are saying but the first mistake is believing that supporters are like minded people... we in Toronto are not. In fact we are very different. GA would be pure chaos and lawlessness leading into fights like u have never seen. I am strongly against GA and in my opinion its a cop out for people that do not wish to take the time to teach their neighbour how to chant and bring them into the fold. We in RPB have brought many ppl into the fold... I dare say more so than any other group out there!

I agree with Flush on this. GA could create just as many problems as it could potentially solve. Partly because we're going to have a whole bunch of people wanting to do their own things in close proximity of others doing something else. We're not all on the same page now, right? Well what makes anyone think we will be when we're sitting closer to each other? There's still going to be a handful of groups with a dozen or so members that will want to do their own thing. How do I know this? Because they're always talking about doing their own thing. Like when they insist on bringing in and setting their own smoke and flares and we're the ones hauled in by the FO to explain ourselves.

I didn't receive an answer the the question that I posed in the first page of the thread, but the fact is that our group has been approached by others to speak to the FO on their behalf and the issue of General Attendance is no different. I get the argument some have for GA in the South End, but I want people to be upfront about it. Are their presence really going to dramatically "unite" the supporters, or do they just want to be where the action is where they can continue to do their own thing but without the restrictions that exist in other parts of the stadium?

[FluSH]

To grow the support, the way it's been done has to change or else Toronto support will be left in the dust. We can't teach new, more complex chants to people if they arent singing the simple ole's.

The Massive
I can't get enough
The Bounce (to some extent)

All examples above that NA's (nonaffiliated) supporters chant - sometimes out numbering our section in 112 in the case of the Massive.

So yes, ppl will learn good, catchy, and fun chants...but dont expect the ole's... ole's are just fillers and this is from me coming a capo

[FluSH]

I agree with Flush on this. GA could create just as many problems as it could potentially solve. Partly because we're going to have a whole bunch of people wanting to do their own things in close proximity of others doing something else. We're not all on the same page now, right? Well what makes anyone think we will be when we're sitting closer to each other? There's still going to be a handful of groups with a dozen or so members that will want to do their own thing. How do I know this? Because they're always talking about doing their own thing. Like when they insist on bringing in and setting their own smoke and flares and we're the ones hauled in by the FO to explain ourselves.

I didn't receive an answer the the question that I posed in the first page of the thread, but the fact is that our group has been approached by others to speak to the FO on their behalf and the issue of General Attendance is no different. I get the argument some have for GA in the South End, but I want people to be upfront about it. Are their presence really going to dramatically "unite" the supporters, or do they just want to be where the action is where they can continue to do their own thing but without the restrictions that exist in other parts of the stadium?

GA... I'm against it and will continue to be against it.

[Marc"2L"]

Start with learning chants and teaching those who don't know the chants. United in Voice should be the goal... not uniting the south.


This is key, we won't all unite under one banner for various reasons yet, we are united in how we would like to support.

Getting all of those folks together is not an easy task.

[Fort York Redcoat]

A roof would help, it cages in the sound and reflects it back onto the field instead of just being let out into the air. This way, many sections will hear eachother cheering and it will be far louder. If you look at any stadium with a roof, it is way louder because the sound is reflected. If you ever go to Leaf games, the roof is what keeps the sound in the building and it echoes inside (its the same principle).

This is what I just posted to Gooner a page back:


Gooner as the plans state (as of now and we can hope they change) The roof HAS NO BACK. No sound to roll back. It's higher than necessary for us since they want the stands to move back for gridiron.

So when you look at other clubs stadia remember we're not getting what they have. Not unless plans change.


Acoustically, this roof will not help.

[Jack]

Acoustically, this roof will not help.
You think so? I'm no acoustics expert, so if I'm wrong, I'd love to hear the explanation. But wouldn't any roof, even one that's open, at least keep some of the sound in?

[FluSH]

This is what I just posted to Gooner a page back:




Acoustically, this roof will not help.

We need to petition for it to have a back. Millions are going to be invested we might as well push to have it done right the first time around!

[Fort York Redcoat]

You think so? I'm no acoustics expert, so if I'm wrong, I'd love to hear the explanation. But wouldn't any roof, even one that's open, at least keep some of the sound in?

Again I'll say this is just -The last plans I've seen so far- But with no back the sound won't project and the design calls for a moving stand so the roof has to be high enough to not obstruct as the stands move behind it. This means not only does it fail to cover more than half the stand but any sound bouncing off a roof that high would be minimal and useless to time to.

And just to clarify my stance,

I'm not AGAINST a roof. I'm against a roof that doesn't help us AND more importantly comes with Argos. So I'm eager to see a plan that at least will satiate the peeps so excited for a roof that will help support or make them comfortable.

THIS PLAN IS NOT IT.

[Phil]

Considering those were concept drawings, and how often concepts become reality, I wouldn't hang my hat on any of that being near 'final'.

Curious to see what they are going to try though.

[ryan]

Is there an opportunity to hammer home the actual desire for a closed in roof?

I mean, they are bringing us one partly because we've clamoured for it, correct? The reason we want it is for sound more than anything. I don't think any of us Canucks really give two shits about the weather aspect...

[Fort York Redcoat]

Is there an opportunity to hammer home the actual desire for a closed in roof?

I mean, they are bringing us one partly because we've clamoured for it, correct? The reason we want it is for sound more than anything. I don't think any of us Canucks really give two shits about the weather aspect...


Oh you'd be surprised. The majority (not shown here) would prefer a shelter from rain and sun. We that look at weather as an attribute or characteristic of one game to the next with no question of attendance are the minority. Last game's atmo/crowd would not have happened in the rain.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Considering those were concept drawings, and how often concepts become reality, I wouldn't hang my hat on any of that being near 'final'.

Curious to see what they are going to try though.

Rest assured Prez, when the changes come I'll put this to rest. I just want the people who care to know that what they want has not been in the design...yet.

[Red Rat]

Oh you'd be surprised. The majority (not shown here) would prefer a shelter from rain and sun. We that look at weather as an attribute or characteristic of one game to the next with no question of attendance are the minority. Last game's atmo/crowd would not have happened in the rain.

Who cares about the roof.... If we get a roof then we will never see that topless guy in front of 112 jumping up and down getting wet in the rain!!! I wanna rub his nipples, yeah baby...

[Whoop]

Some of the best support has been during rain games.

I'd like to a roof so we don't suffer from heat stroke when TFC schedules 2 p.m. matches on a Saturday afternoon. Those hot, scorching days drain support more than any other form weather. It's been proven in the past.

As for the sound aspects, it will help but it's not a magic elixir if support is crap anyway.

A roof isn't the cure all.

[Jack]

Again I'll say this is just -The last plans I've seen so far- But with no back the sound won't project and the design calls for a moving stand so the roof has to be high enough to not obstruct as the stands move behind it. This means not only does it fail to cover more than half the stand but any sound bouncing off a roof that high would be minimal and useless to time to.

And just to clarify my stance,

I'm not AGAINST a roof. I'm against a roof that doesn't help us AND more importantly comes with Argos. So I'm eager to see a plan that at least will satiate the peeps so excited for a roof that will help support or make them comfortable.

THIS PLAN IS NOT IT.
I wasn't suggesting you were anti-roof, I was only curious as to whether there was some sort of acoustics engineering thing telling us that an open sided roof won't work to at least help spread sound around. My understanding is that solids also transmit sound, so wouldn't a roof covering us transmit something to other areas?

[prizby]

the first concept i'd like to see in the supporters section before anything is safe standing rail seats

[Cashcleaner]

Again I'll say this is just -The last plans I've seen so far- But with no back the sound won't project and the design calls for a moving stand so the roof has to be high enough to not obstruct as the stands move behind it. This means not only does it fail to cover more than half the stand but any sound bouncing off a roof that high would be minimal and useless to time to.

And just to clarify my stance,

I'm not AGAINST a roof. I'm against a roof that doesn't help us AND more importantly comes with Argos. So I'm eager to see a plan that at least will satiate the peeps so excited for a roof that will help support or make them comfortable.

THIS PLAN IS NOT IT.

How high and how small is the proposed roof? Acoustics isn't my forte, but even some of the shallowest parabolas can increase the magnitude of sound transmission by a noticeable margin.

http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/gta/2014/03/14/mlse_wants_10_million_from_toronto_for_bmo_field_m akeover/bmofield.jpg.size.xxlarge.letterbox.jpg

If the South Stand roof is anything like the North stand roof pictured above (left side), I don't think there should be a problem as long as the surface's has the correct angle with which to reflect the sound. Is the South Stand roof similar or are we talking something really small and really high?

[Pint]

The way i envision it is the wind will come off the lake coming up over the back of the stands and forcing its way down on the southend actually suppressing the sound, maybe that's off base but that's just the way i see it working.

Without a back to at least the south stand i see a marginal at best increase to the acoustics at BMO.

Hopefully the new and final plans take this into consideration

[Fort York Redcoat]

I wasn't suggesting you were anti-roof, I was only curious as to whether there was some sort of acoustics engineering thing telling us that an open sided roof won't work to at least help spread sound around. My understanding is that solids also transmit sound, so wouldn't a roof covering us transmit something to other areas?

It wasn't you Jack, it was me. Just clarifying because I'm posting a lot and it's not a crusade I just want people to see that what's proposed won't get the job done they want. And you're right even a high roof with no back will do something. Just nothing close to close enough.

[Cashcleaner]

The way i envision it is the wind will come off the lake coming up over the back of the stands and forcing its way down on the southend actually suppressing the sound, maybe that's off base but that's just the way i see it working.

Without a back to at least the south stand i see a marginal at best increase to the acoustics at BMO.

Hopefully the new and final plans take this into consideration

Shit. Yeah, that is a good point about wind coming in. If we had some surrounding structures to break it up it wouldn't be a problem, but yeah, we often get steady breezes in from the lake and that could certainly disrupt the noise generated in the stands if we had nothing to stop that level of airflow.

[OgtheDim]

the first concept i'd like to see in the supporters section before anything is safe standing rail seats

At that meeting back in March with SSH, the guy there with TL had no clue what safe standing was.

I got the strong feeling that somebody suggested a new stadium, and they are flying by the seat of their pants to figure out what a good one will be.

[Fort York Redcoat]

the first concept i'd like to see in the supporters section before anything is safe standing rail seats

Argos fan- Why does my flipseat have a rail in front of it? = Not their first choice and they'll stick to something all fans will be ok with.

[Pint]

Shit. Yeah, that is a good point about wind coming in. If we had some surrounding structures to break it up it wouldn't be a problem, but yeah, we often get steady breezes in from the lake and that could certainly disrupt the noise generated in the stands if we had nothing to stop that level of airflow.

Even if it is just meshing like you would see at your local outdoor tennis courts it would help cut down on the wind.

It won't help with sounds loss through the back but would help keep the wind from messing with acoustics... to play devils advocate though: the breeze off the lake is one of the better parts of the stadium during the super hot summer months.

[ryan]

the first concept i'd like to see in the supporters section before anything is safe standing rail seats

Absolutely. Rip the seats out of 112 at least. We just break them by standing on them anyways. Use them for replacements everytime those Montreal fuckwads come to town and destroy 105.

Then again, what happens when there's another event that could use the seats? /shrug.

[Pint]

Argos fan- Why does my flipseat have a rail in front of it? = Not their first choice and they'll stick to something all fans will be ok with.

Was thinking about that for a little while but something where the railing can be raised and lowered could work... either hydraulics or some sort of locking system for the railing

[Phil]

Was thinking about that for a little while but something where the railing can be raised and lowered could work... either hydraulics or some sort of locking system for the railing

If the stands are mobile then I would expect they won't have hydraulics involeved. I do think that even with the safe standing seats there are some FIFA or Concacaf issues.

[Pint]

If the stands are mobile then I would expect they won't have hydraulics involeved. I do think that even with the safe standing seats there are some FIFA or Concacaf issues.

very true... it's likely a very complex matter based on bureaucracy with both MLSE legal as well as all of the governing bodies. It's a cool idea that i would like to see but i have a couple items I would rank higher than this.

I'm sure this stadium is becoming much more complex than they originally thought it would be

[prizby]

Argos fan- Why does my flipseat have a rail in front of it? = Not their first choice and they'll stick to something all fans will be ok with.

believe the seats would retract for the end zone...so they wouldn't be used anyways


If the stands are mobile then I would expect they won't have hydraulics involeved. I do think that even with the safe standing seats there are some FIFA or Concacaf issues.

Almost all the Bundesliga teams use them to some variation...when they are used as terraces, people aren't assigned seat numbers, for champions league and world cup qualifiers, people are 'assigned' a seat number (to one of the rail seats); would allow for more flexibility and possibly more seats sold during tfc games

not sure how concacaf could have a problem considering some of the fields players have had to play on (Arabe Unido with the pot holes to name one off the top of my head)

[Fort York Redcoat]

believe the seats would retract for the end zone...so they wouldn't be used anyways

Yes retract for the end zone but the remaining seats still used. Are you thinking they just wouldn't use the North and South end at all or are you proposing safe standing for just the rows that cover the endzone? Not that we have any say on it...




Almost all the Bundesliga teams use them to some variation...when they are used as terraces, people aren't assigned seat numbers, for champions league and world cup qualifiers, people are 'assigned' a seat number (to one of the rail seats); would allow for more flexibility and possibly more seats sold during tfc games

not sure how concacaf could have a problem considering some of the fields players have had to play on (Arabe Unido with the pot holes to name one off the top of my head)

This makes no sense. Conditions of the field surface quality and rules concerning seating in NA or a FIFA region have very little to do with the other.

[prizby]

1. Yes retract for the end zone but the remaining seats still used. Are you thinking they just wouldn't use the North and South end at all or are you proposing safe standing for just the rows that cover the endzone? Not that we have any say on it...





2. This makes no sense. Conditions of the field surface quality and rules concerning seating in NA or a FIFA region have very little to do with the other.

1. Based on the initial diagrams, there would be no end zone seating in a cfl confirguration2

2. Both fall under safety guidelines

[Fort York Redcoat]

1. Based on the initial diagrams, there would be no end zone seating in a cfl confirguration2

2. Both fall under safety guidelines

1. Show me please. I was looking for it today and couldn't find it.
2. Completely different guidelines. No need for comparison.

[prizby]

1. Show me please. I was looking for it today and couldn't find it.
2. Completely different guidelines. No need for comparison.

1. image #3 (or #4 depending if you count the leading pic as well) - http://www.wakingthered.com/2014/3/5/5475556/bmo-field-expansion-images
2. maybe i was taking a too general approach (end of debate-ur right)

[Fort York Redcoat]

1. image #3 (or #4 depending if you count the leading pic as well) - http://www.wakingthered.com/2014/3/5/5475556/bmo-field-expansion-images
2. maybe i was taking a too general approach (end of debate-ur right)

BAM!!!

Thank You! This changes things a lot!

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/2091201/BiAJHuOCQAA6Ues_medium.jpg


This is showing the Argos will have NO north and South stand! Attendance for Argos will actually be REDUCED from TFC! And we all have heard they could easily average over 30k and or so much more than TFC. Very interesting.


Thanks for the link and obviously the WTR guys.


This is all pointing to the roof not having to be higher or without a back except for that "special event" stuff they want so badly...

So Leafs fans, the roof that doesn't do enough would be all for you...

[Pint]

BAM!!!

Thank You! This changes things a lot!

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/2091201/BiAJHuOCQAA6Ues_medium.jpg


This is showing the Argos will have NO north and South stand! Attendance for Argos will actually be REDUCED from TFC! And we all have heard they could easily average over 30k and or so much more than TFC. Very interesting.


Thanks for the link and obviously the WTR guys.


This is all pointing to the roof not having to be higher or without a back except for that "special event" stuff they want so badly...

So Leafs fans, the roof that doesn't do enough would be all for you...

Don't forget the "Great Lakes World Cup" big the city of toronto wants to get involved in lol

[jabbronies]

Is there an opportunity to hammer home the actual desire for a closed in roof?

I mean, they are bringing us one partly because we've clamoured for it, correct? The reason we want it is for sound more than anything. I don't think any of us Canucks really give two shits about the weather aspect...

I doubt it. This has everything to do with ticket sales and keep bums in seats.

Traditionally it rains or bakes at most TFC games. A roof just makes sense to make sure people are not afraid to come to games. I'm not talking about supporters or people who stick it out no matter what - I'm talking about the other 15000 people in the stadium (5000 of those people exist, the other 10,000 is what they are trying to attract)

It also makes coming to BMO for a winter classic a bit more realistic. not really cos it's still outdoors and fucking cold and snowy and will still sell out, but optics of having the roof make it more friendly for those afraid to come to a game in the middle of winter. (a.k.a. purley a selling point to get the game here in T.O.)

Most new stadiums in MLS have roofs. Makes for a nice cozy atmosphere. This roof will get us to that level of more intimate feeling. It sells the entertainment value of being at a TFC game.

Oh, and the supporters say it'll help with the sound and they will work in our favour to convince council to do it because of their past history with bombarding the city with requests to help the team.

[james]

How high and how small is the proposed roof? Acoustics isn't my forte, but even some of the shallowest parabolas can increase the magnitude of sound transmission by a noticeable margin.

http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/gta/2014/03/14/mlse_wants_10_million_from_toronto_for_bmo_field_m akeover/bmofield.jpg.size.xxlarge.letterbox.jpg

If the South Stand roof is anything like the North stand roof pictured above (left side), I don't think there should be a problem as long as the surface's has the correct angle with which to reflect the sound. Is the South Stand roof similar or are we talking something really small and really high?


we need the roof to be much lower and covered behind the south end, the way it is drawn, this will not prevent any wind from ripping through the stadium.

[Belfast_Boy]

Anyone that knows me is aware of how I feel about GA. I believe it's the way forward. Look around the league, what has worked and how are they doing it? Do we want to stay how we are or are we capable of more?
Support is divided in the stands. We need something different to make that change. Continuing to do the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.
If we want people in the stands early and like minds standing together GA is the answer. Don't be afraid of change.
Some may not like this, anyone can be a fan. Being a supporter is different and fans do not belong in a supporter section. Wanting to stand and have cheap seats isn't enough.

[Oldtimer]

The Red Patch Boys are already mostly situated in the South End. U-Sector is already mostly situated in the South End. That's a big chunk of the recognized supporters right there, and as seats open up more of our respective members are able to make the move into 112/113. If you really want to unite the South End, shouldn't this be posted on the forums of all those various smaller groups? Or is it already? I mean, we're already there and we're already pretty united.

Or is this another example of our group being asked to bring an issue to the FO on behalf of someone else? Understand that I'm not bothered with that if that's the case - I just want some no-bullshit clarification for once, because it tends to happen more than most people may think.

I'd like to see this too.

[Belfast_Boy]

I'd like to see this too.

For clarification this thread and poll wasn't started by anyone from our group.

[__wowza]

For clarification this thread and poll wasn't started by anyone from our group.

so what would the ideal outcome be? if a realistic (ie: no bullshit casual, standing around taking selfie, etc) section was a possibility, would other groups be open to the concept?

[Abou Sky]

so what would the ideal outcome be? if a realistic (ie: no bullshit casual, standing around taking selfie, etc) section was a possibility, would other groups be open to the concept?

And what is so wrong about taking selfies? :p

[Belfast_Boy]

so what would the ideal outcome be? if a realistic (ie: no bullshit casual, standing around taking selfie, etc) section was a possibility, would other groups be open to the concept?

Hey wowza, like I said I'm for GA. Would other groups be open to it? I guess you'd have to ask them.
Our group is pro GA. I know many supporters that are avoiding the south end now would come back. FO would have to be creative with tickets to avoid overcrowding, perhaps have swipe cards for the section or something like that.
I believe the result would be flags and singing for 90. People would be in the stands an hour before the game to get a spot. Like other stadiums with GA the atmosphere would be electric by game time.
Would there be problems? of course, security would have to deal with crowded sections instead of seat disputes. there'd be growing pains but at least there'd be growth.

[Abou Sky]

You know... in a perfect world we could all move to the top half of 110 & 111 where we would actually get to see the game properly <RUN AWAY>

[FluSH]

My post times out! Fck! Anyhow I am strongly against GA for many reasons, and I am more then willing to tell u why. However any discussion about the operations of our group - RPB - should be done in the Members area in my opinion.

[RedRum]

My post times out! Fck! Anyhow I am strongly against GA for many reasons, and I am more then willing to tell u why. However any discussion about the operations of our group - RPB - should be done in the Members area in my opinion.

Flush - sorry you post timed out, would love to have read your debate. I know you, you know me - many years. You admirably are passionate about chants and vocal support. GA is the way to fix that dude. It works on the road, it works everywhere else in MLS at home where groups have either decided or been forced into it. We don't need to re-invent the wheel here.

An umbrella group like Section 8 has in Chicago is absolutely the way to go. Most people probably don't even know they aren't a single group but instead oversee multiple groups with everyone having a say, come to consensus, and then they all pull together.

Pipe dream though. RPB exec are against GA, it's been explained to me for years and was re-enforced at Joes just last Saturday. usector same thing ( guys who have been around know me and feel free to to shoot me a pm on your board).

Anyone can read my posts going back 3 or 4 years on this same topic. Never changed my tune, made predictions that came to fruition. Or... just go read Jack's and Belfast Boy posts in this thread. THEY SPEAK THE TRUTH.


tl;dr:

People with titles would rather be a small fish in a big pond instead of swimming in an ocean.

[Abou Sky]

I thought that the 'official' RPB stance was pro GA

"Timbers Army" is similer to 'Section 8' in that they are an amalgamation of groups. My idea was something like 'One Red Army' type thing. I think part of the problem is that with the teams performance, poor foresight on the part of SGs (can't blame them, who would have known that 112 wouldn't be enough?) and really mostly, the fact that the FO didn't want to work with anyone for a long time stuff broke apart. It is easier to build a Lego Set the first time around (Philly) than it is to try to find all the pieces in a bin and remake it off of a half torn picture. (yes, I have had a couple, hard night OK)

As for the 'Big Fish' thing, that is a bit unfair man. Just because you don't agree with every decision made, doesn't mean it is wrong or self serving.

[RedRum]

I thought that the 'official' RPB stance was pro GA

"Timbers Army" is similer to 'Section 8' in that they are an amalgamation of groups. My idea was something like 'One Red Army' type thing. I think part of the problem is that with the teams performance, poor foresight on the part of SGs (can't blame them, who would have known that 112 wouldn't be enough?) and really mostly, the fact that the FO didn't want to work with anyone for a long time stuff broke apart. It is easier to build a Lego Set the first time around (Philly) than it is to try to find all the pieces in a bin and remake it off of a half torn picture. (yes, I have had a couple, hard night OK)

As for the 'Big Fish' thing, that is a bit unfair man. Just because you don't agree with every decision made, doesn't mean it is wrong or self serving.

GA as in in GA in 112, or GA? If you think it's the latter... uh no.

Lego is a great analogy. Walk to the bathroom in the middle of night. Step on a piece of lego (ouch). Plead your concerns with builders of the lego. 3 and 4 years later, lego bits are still strewn about and not built into a structure.

Last point you made: Don't matter what I agree or disagree with. My statement is 100% valid and factual. It is what it is.

[Oldtimer]

I'm going to weigh in here, my own personal opinion, in no way representative of how the Red Patch Boys, our leadership, etc. feels.

I think that it's laughable that Section 8 is being held up as some kind of ideal. Chicago has poor support compared to the better cities.

I used to think that what we had in Toronto was good... a diversity of groups to embrace diversity of support styles. RPB, U-Sector, even TRN all doing their thing. I now see that I was too idealistic.

What I see is a large number of uncoordinated groups each doing their thing to the detriment of real support. Whenever people don't like how group "D" is doing things, they splinter off and form group "F," and so it goes.

So I am in the stadium and I hear 3 or more groups each singing something different, because no one wants to listen to anyone else. Do you think that's good? Do you think a section 8 structure would fix that? I certainly don't.

Where you get the absolute best support, there is only one significant supporter group. I'm talking Seattle.

Even Montreal is better than us these days.

That's my 2 cents, and personal opinion, with all the disclaimers.

[Parkdale]

Pipe dream though. RPB exec are against GA, it's been explained to me for years and was re-enforced at Joes just last Saturday. usector same thing (guys who have been around know me and feel free to to shoot me a pm on your board).


The RPB exec are against dismantling 112 and tossing out all the work that's gone into establishing good relationships there.
It seems like that's what the GA camp is asking for but it doesn't matter because:
General Admission is a pipe dream at BMO because of our management, and I'm against tossing out what we have for what might happen, maybe, but probably not ever.

It's not in the best interest of the RPB, or support in general to tear down what's been built over the last 8 years for an academic concept (more on this later). There is no denying that the south east corner of BMO field is the beating heart of support, and generally the voices who shout "Let's move to the promised land of General Admission" aren't in sections where things are working well. Usector and RPB are both very happy with their respective areas of the south end, so why should we move to accommodate people who aren't in our group? It wouldn't be for the general betterment of TFC support and it wouldn't "unite the south".

and what about the douchebags? Every single game we have to defend the drum from packs of drunken Bros who want to smash their fists on the drum, and girls who hiss at us because we don't let them play on the drum while taking selfies. How would these people be dealt with in a GA setting? It would require the section to self-police and regulate, which is exactly what happens in 112 at present. How would that happen in a new GA section? My guess would be badly.

So why is General Admission an academic concept?

Because it's strictly a theoretical discussion while we play at BMO field with MLSE managing the building. It's never really been put on the table, so all of the "100% fact" arguments aren't actually based on our situation. We can look at Chicago and Portland, but their situations are different from ours. We've never been offered an open and empty section, so all this talk of GA would mean relocating or displacing people from their current seats. And who's going to make that call? Should the casual fan in section TBC have to be able to justify their seats? Not only would that be completely unfair, but it would be impossible to accomplish.



People with titles would rather be a small fish in a big pond instead of swimming in an ocean.

And where is this ocean you speak of?

At present it doesn't exist, and there's no plan from MLSE or BMO to make one. They could have offered us the North Stands but it didn't happen. The might make a new section, but unless it's next to the pitch, it's not going to be effective. We've already seen that every section of BMO has a unique character and doesn't respond well to a batch of newcomers arriving and dictating how things should be done.

Unless BMO offers all supporters a brand new section that's big enough to accommodate all the current groups (and unaffiliated supporters) then the General Admission will remain a nice idea in theory. Personally, the idea of abandoning 112 for an in theory but probably not home isn't a smart risk.

[Belfast_Boy]

Montreal rocked the shit out of it last night. flags for almost 90 minutes and non-stop singing. The pyro and smoke was sexy too.

Another good example is Kansas. they have two GA sections, one for supporters and another for family. The FO even gives tickets to the fans for some away games. Great support working with a good FO.

My personal opinion. I wouldn't mind if our group disappeared for the good of support. Support in Toronto needs help. Continuing as we have won't change things. Ego's need checked and a fresh open-minded approach is needed.

[OgtheDim]

...Because it's strictly a theoretical discussion while we play at BMO field with MLSE managing the building. It's never really been put on the table.....

So let me get what you are saying straight:

RPB don't want to rebuild the supporter efforts that have occurred already in 112 and 111. Ok that I get.

Those that want GA want the RPB to be in that GA area. Ok, I can see that opinion, but there is a possibility that GA would work without the RPB's active involvement in that area.

And this discussion is academic anyways because MLSE has not brought up GA as an option. Now, that I don't see.

The North end is going to be rebuilt, as is the south. And, given how MLSE has been actively discussing with teams like SKC and Portland how their stadiums work atmosphere wise, you still think MLSE would not consider GA in areas? I know they are learning on the fly, but GA works in some stadiums.

MLSE would have no qualms using the rebuild as cover for GA in areas, if they thought it would increase revenue / atmosphere. Maybe not in 111 and 112. But, to say this is an academic concept only is a bit of an over reach.

RPB may not support GA where they are, and for good reasons.

[Parkdale]

MLSE didn't offer us GA in the north end last time, so until they DO offer us something..... it's a theoretical discussion.
At present we haven't been told specifics about any new seating or relocation options, so it's all guess work.

You know, it's like planning the parade route for after we win the MLS Cup.


RPB may not support GA where they are, and for good reasons.

that's the thing - we have a pseudo GA already happening in 112, and it works nicely for that area. The pseudo GA that 113 enjoys also works well for them. Trying to impose a General Admission policy on a section in one fell swoop will result in blowback from the people who are already there. It would have to be a new section if it's going to work at all, and until that's on the table - it's academic - like the parade route.

[Oldtimer]

My personal opinion. I wouldn't mind if our group disappeared for the good of support. Support in Toronto needs help. Continuing as we have won't change things. Ego's need checked and a fresh open-minded approach is needed.

I wish more people thought that way.

[FluSH]

So, both Usector and RPB are against GA?!? Let's call this a wrap.

People talking about GA are making promises that can not be guaranteed on "what might happen, maybe, but probably not ever." Let's talk real facts:

There are some people who hate RPB and attack the group on social media - that's a fact
Threats have been made to some of our group members in the past - that's a fact
There have been fights within our own supporters - that's a fact
Former members have left RPB because of differances in support (flares etc) - that's a fact

I don't care about MTL or Portland... There has been too much bad blood spilled, and personally speaking I trust only one guy in this thread that is pro GA (and not RPB) and that's RedRum.

If both Usector and RPB are against GA I suggest that others look elsewhere for a change - maybe built up their section. We will be more than happy to co-ordinate on chants. If Usector wishes to discuss a closer P-GA with our two groups then our top guys from each group can discuss that together.

[BuSaPuNk]

The RPB exec are against dismantling 112 and tossing out all the work that's gone into establishing good relationships there.
It seems like that's what the GA camp is asking for but it doesn't matter because:
General Admission is a pipe dream at BMO because of our management, and I'm against tossing out what we have for what might happen, maybe, but probably not ever.

It's not in the best interest of the RPB, or support in general to tear down what's been built over the last 8 years for an academic concept (more on this later). There is no denying that the south east corner of BMO field is the beating heart of support, and generally the voices who shout "Let's move to the promised land of General Admission" aren't in sections where things are working well. Usector and RPB are both very happy with their respective areas of the south end, so why should we move to accommodate people who aren't in our group? It wouldn't be for the general betterment of TFC support and it wouldn't "unite the south".

and what about the douchebags? Every single game we have to defend the drum from packs of drunken Bros who want to smash their fists on the drum, and girls who hiss at us because we don't let them play on the drum while taking selfies. How would these people be dealt with in a GA setting? It would require the section to self-police and regulate, which is exactly what happens in 112 at present. How would that happen in a new GA section? My guess would be badly.

So why is General Admission an academic concept?

Because it's strictly a theoretical discussion while we play at BMO field with MLSE managing the building. It's never really been put on the table, so all of the "100% fact" arguments aren't actually based on our situation. We can look at Chicago and Portland, but their situations are different from ours. We've never been offered an open and empty section, so all this talk of GA would mean relocating or displacing people from their current seats. And who's going to make that call? Should the casual fan in section TBC have to be able to justify their seats? Not only would that be completely unfair, but it would be impossible to accomplish.



And where is this ocean you speak of?

At present it doesn't exist, and there's no plan from MLSE or BMO to make one. They could have offered us the North Stands but it didn't happen. The might make a new section, but unless it's next to the pitch, it's not going to be effective. We've already seen that every section of BMO has a unique character and doesn't respond well to a batch of newcomers arriving and dictating how things should be done.

Unless BMO offers all supporters a brand new section that's big enough to accommodate all the current groups (and unaffiliated supporters) then the General Admission will remain a nice idea in theory. Personally, the idea of abandoning 112 for an in theory but probably not home isn't a smart risk.

I agree with Parky 1000% on this.

[phonzo]

Stating the executive are strongly against GA is a misrepresentation and I think Parkie has tried to shed light on what we really think. Either that or I have not paid attention to anything that the exec have discussed :). As Parkdale says it's never been brought forth by the team and I think most people know our group enough to know that if something like that was brought up a small collective wouldn't decide it on behalf of the entire membership.

The thing is other then being brought up by fellow supporters it's never been something the team has entertained; perhaps with the upcoming work at BMO this may come up and if it doesn't it's worth discussing then. For now it isn't and rather then bash our heads non-stop into a wall that is not moving it's better to put that energy elsewhere.

As for the concept of an umbrella group; as much as I love the idea and have always supported it I don't think any of the groups are at a point where this is something they want sadly we can't even come to an understanding of when to wave a flag and when not too.

[phonzo]

To further elaborate on my point; in order for an umbrella group to work it has to be made up of individuals which all chapters/sub-groups respect but more importantly the chapters/sub-groups actually respect decisions made by the board in the end. Lets be frank we can't even do that with simple conversations today let alone for larger discussions or issues.

[__wowza]

And this discussion is academic anyways because MLSE has not brought up GA as an option. Now, that I don't see.

The North end is going to be rebuilt, as is the south. And, given how MLSE has been actively discussing with teams like SKC and Portland how their stadiums work atmosphere wise, you still think MLSE would not consider GA in areas? I know they are learning on the fly, but GA works in some stadiums.

MLSE would have no qualms using the rebuild as cover for GA in areas, if they thought it would increase revenue / atmosphere. Maybe not in 111 and 112. But, to say this is an academic concept only is a bit of an over reach.

RPB may not support GA where they are, and for good reasons.

what's being overlooked in the GA discussion is that SGs for columbus, chicago, portland, KC are all lumped together but remain independant. the timbers army is comprised of NINE different groups all flying under the same "timbers army" banner, and each member is accountable to both their section SG and the timbers army as a whole. the keyword here being accountable. if someone from 104th charlie (portland) got into a fight, then 104 would deal with them. if everyone 104 thought it'd be a great idea to riot, then the timbers army would go to the FO and cut ties with the section and their SG status would be revoked because it looked bad on the group as a whole.

at the end of the day, someone answers to everyone. with GA in 112, EVERYBODY in 112 would answer to the RPB, because the RPB would still be held accountable for the actions of supporters in their section. we can see why that's something many of the exec are not willing to accomodate.


if they rebuilt the supporters sections and offered each of the supporters groups their own slice of the pie, i could see it working.. but that brings about the next problem:


you rebuild the stadium, and designate the south side for supporters. that means you have to relocate anyone whose not affiliated with one of these groups. that means there's a lot of people who have seasons seats in the south who get moved and are really, really pissed off and possibly threaten to drop their tickets. that's not something MLSE would be willing to deal with. don't get me wrong, MLSE fucked up to begin with, but this requires them to correct their mistake which they most likely won't be willing to do. they shit the bed on not giving supporters the north stand, but they're going to have to bite the bullet eventually.. so i'm hoping the just fucking wise up when the renovations start.

[FluSH]

I'm moving forward from this GA discussion. We need to focus on getting in the early discussions of the roof. If this roof does not provide acoustic support it will be a huge fail. We have one chance to get this right and shape the voice of the stands, the roof needs to project sound first and foremost.

[Supporting]

Okay well this thread has gone of in a different direction then I intended. I was wondering why don't all of the support groups get season tickets in the South End and unite under one large group. We would all sing the same chants and work together, but the groups could still remain separate with regards to leaders, banner teams, ect. I just think a larger group together is better than 5 smaller groups spread out. Right now, it seems like no one really cares about expansion/there's no opportunity for it. I don't know if it's better to convert the people already in the south to better fans, but it could be a lot better. Near the field, chants are doing great but as you go higher up in 113/112 they become very weak. My dream is to have 112-118 united as one and everyone going fucking crazy.

[Oldtimer]

To further elaborate on my point; in order for an umbrella group to work it has to be made up of individuals which all chapters/sub-groups respect but more importantly the chapters/sub-groups actually respect decisions made by the board in the end. Lets be frank we can't even do that with simple conversations today let alone for larger discussions or issues.

Just imagine too that it wouldn't be one vote per group, groups would get representation based on actual membership. So the controlling vote would be held by RPB and U-Sector together, as those two groups vastly outnumber all other supporters together.

Now let's take one issue, smoke. If both RPB and U-Sector say "we like TFC's solution for controlled smoke, no one of any group is to bring in their own smoke of any kind," would that really be respected by 100% of the membership of all the myriad groups? Really?
Same thing if decisions were made say covering what kind of chants we will sing. Would we get 100% co-operation? If yes, then you can talk section 8. If not, then let's stop discussing something that simply will not work.

[Supporting]

First off, there are different groups for a reason. Everyone sees support differently and that's okay. Groups are split all over the world but they still work well together. That's what I'd like to see here. Every group working together recognized under one banner (South Stand Supporters, whatever) while still holding onto their individual identity

You can also put me into the pro GA crowd. The only reason being growth.

As much as the SG's are comfortable in 112-114, the current setup is not allowing any growth and to grow, things have to change.

Think of it from a newcomers perspective. How difficult is it for any newcomer to just join a group and become involved in the stands? When I first joined RPB, I bought my membership, a year later I helped on my first banner, and by the next year I finally was regularly in 112. It's not an easy process for anyone who doesn't necessarily have the drive that I did at the get go. GA would allow all current like minded supporters to be together without the hassle as well as make it MUCH easier for any newcomer who has any interest to go where the action is and learn how to become a part of it.

At one point we were the top supporters in MLS. Now we are at the bottom 1/3 easily because we have not evolved. To get back to the top we must change.

+1 great point!!

[Bardown Snipes]

what's being overlooked in the GA discussion is that SGs for columbus, chicago, portland, KC are all lumped together but remain independant. the timbers army is comprised of NINE different groups all flying under the same "timbers army" banner, and each member is accountable to both their section SG and the timbers army as a whole. the keyword here being accountable. if someone from 104th charlie (portland) got into a fight, then 104 would deal with them. if everyone 104 thought it'd be a great idea to riot, then the timbers army would go to the FO and cut ties with the section and their SG status would be revoked because it looked bad on the group as a whole.

at the end of the day, someone answers to everyone. with GA in 112, EVERYBODY in 112 would answer to the RPB, because the RPB would still be held accountable for the actions of supporters in their section. we can see why that's something many of the exec are not willing to accomodate.


if they rebuilt the supporters sections and offered each of the supporters groups their own slice of the pie, i could see it working.. but that brings about the next problem:


you rebuild the stadium, and designate the south side for supporters. that means you have to relocate anyone whose not affiliated with one of these groups. that means there's a lot of people who have seasons seats in the south who get moved and are really, really pissed off and possibly threaten to drop their tickets. that's not something MLSE would be willing to deal with. don't get me wrong, MLSE fucked up to begin with, but this requires them to correct their mistake which they most likely won't be willing to do. they shit the bed on not giving supporters the north stand, but they're going to have to bite the bullet eventually.. so i'm hoping the just fucking wise up when the renovations start.

Finally, someone acknowledges that MLSE screwed up, they had no clue what they were doing in 2007 when the stadium opened for TFC and they still don't know. Like Wowza said they're going to have to bite the bullet eventually and make a move because this simply can not go on anymore. With one SG starting one cheer and another starting another cheer, people are drowned out and it just sounds awful. It all comes down to MLSE making a move and re-organizing the seating at BMO Field

[Supporting]

The Red Patch Boys are already mostly situated in the South End. U-Sector is already mostly situated in the South End. That's a big chunk of the recognized supporters right there, and as seats open up more of our respective members are able to make the move into 112/113. If you really want to unite the South End, shouldn't this be posted on the forums of all those various smaller groups? Or is it already? I mean, we're already there and we're already pretty united.

Or is this another example of our group being asked to bring an issue to the FO on behalf of someone else? Understand that I'm not bothered with that if that's the case - I just want some no-bullshit clarification for once, because it tends to happen more than most people may think.

Well, I haven't posted on other forums if that's you want me to do...? I was just thinking to myself wouldn't it be amazing if all the groups were together in the South section, which would help us with people not singing in these sections. Yes, I admit the bottom of 112-113 is united but we still need to work on the upper portion.

[__wowza]

Finally, someone acknowledges that MLSE screwed up, they had no clue what they were doing in 2007 when the stadium opened for TFC and they still don't know. Like Wowza said they're going to have to bite the bullet eventually and make a move because this simply can not go on anymore. With one SG starting one cheer and another starting another cheer, people are drowned out and it just sounds awful. It all comes down to MLSE making a move and re-organizing the seating at BMO Field

no one acknowledges it because everybody knows it g:D.
from the number of supporters seats they originally offered (which was so ridiculously low that they released 3 extra blocks seperately because they kept selling out), to the amount they spent on the stadium ($60 million, which was supposed to be $120 million), MLSE started this organization with a mentality that they wouldn't lose a whole lot of money if the team turned out to be a flop.

then.. in an ironic twist, they were HANDED support from a city that was crazy-in-love with the sport.
support that most teams in the league would kill for was just dropped in their lap.

it's been an uphill battle ever since, and renovations are finally their chance to fix it.

[Flint]

Montreal rocked the shit out of it last night. flags for almost 90 minutes and non-stop singing. The pyro and smoke was sexy too.

Another good example is Kansas. they have two GA sections, one for supporters and another for family. The FO even gives tickets to the fans for some away games. Great support working with a good FO.

My personal opinion. I wouldn't mind if our group disappeared for the good of support. Support in Toronto needs help. Continuing as we have won't change things. Ego's need checked and a fresh open-minded approach is needed.


Montreal support was absolutely amazing last night. Definitely put us to shame.

I'll agree 100% with his last point. People shouldn't be putting group issues ahead of overall support. Groups aren't around to serve their own interests. They are there to be part of a greater supporters culture for TFC. If groups disappear but support improves altogether, we should be all for that.

"Ego's need checked and a fresh open-minded approach is needed."

[FluSH]

Montreal support was absolutely amazing last night. Definitely put us to shame.

I'll agree 100% with his last point. People shouldn't be putting group issues ahead of overall support. Groups aren't around to serve their own interests. They are there to be part of a greater supporters culture for TFC. If groups disappear but support improves altogether, we should be all for that.

"Ego's need checked and a fresh open-minded approach is needed."


No organization and no accountability = greater support?!

Somehow i just don't follow that math.

I do agree with the ego part, people should trash their God like ego mentality of how someone should support and embrace our differances, but that's not happening and fellow supporters aren't being respected.

[FluSH]

Also, there are too many generalizations in this thread:


At one point we were the top supporters in MLS. Now we are at the bottom 1/3 easily because we have not evolved. To get back to the top we must change.

It should read:


At one point RPB, Usector and NEE were the top supporters in MLS. Now RPB and Usector are at the bottom 1/3 easily because they have not evolved. To get back to the top they must change.

And the last two sentences are inaccurate to say the least... The complexity of what has transpired with all three groups can't be covered with "they have not evolved".

[Flint]

^
I didn't want to point fingers at any group and I know how complex the issues were. I know it wasn't the fault of any one party but a collective series of events that led to our current state. That being said, I think the first step in recovery is self realization of how low we've gotten (easily bottom 1/3 in the league) and then evolve from there because the status quo isn't working for anyone.

[Supporting]

Also, there are too many generalizations in this thread:



It should read:



And the last two sentences are inaccurate to say the least... The complexity of what has transpired with all three groups can't be covered with "they have not evolved".

What ended happening to NEE? I have been looking over the internet for a while but nothing comes up and I cant join their forum?

[molenshtain]

So it seems that, just by reading some of the comments here, one of the major problems (if not the major problem) in the supporters sections currently is the issue of tourists buying tickets for those sections due to price and are then unwilling and uncomfortable in joining in the atmosphere. though, every single stadium I've gone to in NA, Europe and Asia the supporters sections are literally always the cheapest seats. So this problem of cheapest tickets being in the supporters section is not just ours. How do other teams and supporters with our predicament fair in fending off the tourists and attracting willing participants instead? I mean, some teams just give all the supporters section seats to the supporters groups and tell them to figure it out for themselves. But that's a typically south American thing and I'm not sure too many teams follow that model. for instance, I doubt any MLS teams follow that model but few would have significant signage indicating to sit somewhere else due to the standing, noise etc. yet there are obviously some very successful and well coordinated groups in this league without the tourist problem.

So what's the solution? better signage?

Also on the topic of what could the FO give to SSH who they would be trying to get to move in order to create GA, I'd assume it would be to choose your seat elsewhere but keep the price of the tickets you had in the south end. That would make sense and would help weed out the people who buy seasons there for the price and nothing else.

[Oldtimer]

Well, I haven't posted on other forums if that's you want me to do...? I was just thinking to myself wouldn't it be amazing if all the groups were together in the South section, which would help us with people not singing in these sections. Yes, I admit the bottom of 112-113 is united but we still need to work on the upper portion.

You absolutely should do this. Start with the U-Sector board and see how far you get. :D


What ended happening to NEE? I have been looking over the internet for a while but nothing comes up and I cant join their forum?

Group folded for reasons that I don't want to go into on this board.

[Parkdale]

^ very good points.

I know that in some stadiums, you can't buy walkup seats to the supporters sections. All of the seats have been sold to individuals, or to groups representing a number of people. They know that letting some random person buy a seat in the middle of the hardcore moshing supporters (there's always one pocket that looks like a mosh pit) then it would be a disaster. It would be impossible to enforce something like that here because people are allowed to give away / trade / sell their tickets if they want to (as it should be). The issues seem to happen when someone sells a ticket "in the south end with the crazies" as opposed to "a ticket to watch TFC". The mood used to exist that it was a wild drunken party at BMO, and people were coming for the atmosphere and not the team.

[ryan]

Even Montreal is better than us these days.


Montreal rocked the shit out of it last night. flags for almost 90 minutes and non-stop singing. The pyro and smoke was sexy too.

I understand the conversation, but fuck's sake (next to pro USMNT shite) do I hate reading how great UM02 do on this board.

First off, they are overrated as hell as far as I'm concerned. Sure for 90 they persist, cannot be denied, but it's otherwise "lalalala heyo Montreal". Good job you fucking simpletons. Legendary support with your upside down banners 'n shit. Nice job with the goal banners at the match, blue tape on dirty bed sheets. Fucking skillful they are.

Second off, fuck the Limpact.


I realize the on going issues and overall pessimism currently, but to tell me that is "so much better" is absolutely puke-tastic.


"Ego's need checked and a fresh open-minded approach is needed."

Doesn't help when neighbouring supporter group members chant "Got some cream for your Red Patch" at us. Hard to unite under arrogance. Wednesday's match wasn't the 1st time I've heard it either.

[Oldtimer]

I understand the conversation, but fuck's sake (next to pro USMNT shite) do I hate reading how great UM02 do on this board.



I'm no fan of that bunch in UM02, but denial doesn't help anyone. They are better than us right now. Splintering hurts support, even if each individual splinter is a super awesome one. :p

[ryan]

I'm no fan of that bunch in UM02, but denial doesn't help anyone. They are better than us right now. Splintering hurts support, even if each individual splinter is a super awesome one. :p

I don't believe I'm in denial at all. Suppose it just matters as to what you value when drawing the comparison. The persistence doesn't do it for me. Also, the lack of acoustics sells our current efforts short. We'd sound a hell of a lot better if we had their park, as we are now.

[Supporting]

Doesn't help when neighbouring supporter group members chant "Got some cream for your Red Patch" at us. Hard to unite under arrogance. Wednesday's match wasn't the 1st time I've heard it either.

I'm new to TFC supporters groups, do U-sector and rpb have a bad history?

Also imagine this:
http://i61.tinypic.com/any69g.jpg

Blue: Usector
Red: Redpatchboys
Green: SG114
Black: KingsintheNorth
Green: Original 109

[Belfast_Boy]

I understand the conversation, but fuck's sake (next to pro USMNT shite) do I hate reading how great UM02 do on this board.

First off, they are overrated as hell as far as I'm concerned. Sure for 90 they persist, cannot be denied, but it's otherwise "lalalala heyo Montreal". Good job you fucking simpletons. Legendary support with your upside down banners 'n shit. Nice job with the goal banners at the match, blue tape on dirty bed sheets. Fucking skillful they are.

Second off, fuck the Limpact.


I realize the on going issues and overall pessimism currently, but to tell me that is "so much better" is absolutely puke-tastic.



Doesn't help when neighbouring supporter group members chant "Got some cream for your Red Patch" at us. Hard to unite under arrogance. Wednesday's match wasn't the 1st time I've heard it either.

Please tell me what we do better. I'm not being a smartass, I'm curious what you see that I don't.
Montreal was used as and example, would you prefer it was someone else? then insert their name. I dislike Montreal as much as the next guy. The bastards tried to steal our banner, but didn't get away with it.

that's pathetic, I'm constantly amazed at how badly we treat each other. I know I've stirred the pot a few times myself and that was a mistake.

[ryan]

Please tell me what we do better. I'm not being a smartass, I'm curious what you see that I don't.
Montreal was used as and example, would you prefer it was someone else? then insert their name. I dislike Montreal as much as the next guy. The bastards tried to steal our banner, but didn't get away with it.

There are better examples within the League, I don't deny that at all.

My argument is "what is so bloody special about them?" Mere persistence of simplicity? I don't buy that justification personally.

We're all so focused on "what's wrong" that some are being oblivious to some of the things we still do well.

[Oldtimer]

I'm new to TFC supporters groups, do U-sector and rpb have a bad history?

The leadership of both groups work very well together. No problems at all. We have co-operated on many projects and chants over the years. There are a couple of individuals who put down the other group, but it's not a big deal.

I think the reference is probably to some people in 114, not U-Sector.

[Belfast_Boy]

I'm new to TFC supporters groups, do U-sector and rpb have a bad history?

Also imagine this:
http://i61.tinypic.com/any69g.jpg

Blue: Usector
Red: Redpatchboys
Green: SG114
Black: KingsintheNorth
Green: Original 109

RPB are 111 and 112
U Sector are 113
SG114 are ..... 114
109's this will be hard to believe.... 109
Kings in 127

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'm new to TFC supporters groups, do U-sector and rpb have a bad history?

Not at present but we do have the longest history therefore when differences occur over the years we can't say it's always been sunshine. I'm very happy to work with our neighbours.

[Belfast_Boy]

The leadership of both groups work very well together. No problems at all. We have co-operated on many projects and chants over the years. There are a couple of individuals who put down the other group, but it's not a big deal.

I think the reference is probably to some people in 114, not U-Sector.

if it's people in 114 it's not SG114. we even come to Joes to drink now.

[Supporting]

RPB are 111 and 112
U Sector are 113
SG114 are ..... 114
109's this will be hard to believe.... 109
Kings in 127

"Imagine this" :facepalm:

[Red Rat]

my 2 cents.

I've stopped posting here because " These so called Supporters groups are 1% work ethic 99% bullshit "
Do you want to make a difference in the future, make a difference today.
Change today for it will change tomorrow.
I've been doing the same shit game in game out. You want a united south end? Then start tomorrow and bring it to the game and every game after that! then you will see how the puzzles forms itself.

Until then is all talk that amounts to nothing!

[ryan]

The leadership of both groups work very well together. No problems at all. We have co-operated on many projects and chants over the years. There are a couple of individuals who put down the other group, but it's not a big deal.

I think the reference is probably to some people in 114, not U-Sector.

Incorrect sir.

[eustacchio]

^ very good points.

I know that in some stadiums, you can't buy walkup seats to the supporters sections. All of the seats have been sold to individuals, or to groups representing a number of people. They know that letting some random person buy a seat in the middle of the hardcore moshing supporters (there's always one pocket that looks like a mosh pit) then it would be a disaster.

In a lot of places, each ticket has to be assigned to a customer/customer account - one ticket per customer. That way they know exactly who is (supposed to be) in which seat, who owns it, if they are affiliated with a group, etc. We have features in our ticketing software specifically for this.

[Fort York Redcoat]

RPB are 111 and 112
U Sector are 113
SG114 are ..... 114
109's this will be hard to believe.... 109
Kings in 127

Wasn't 109 moved to 110? And I believe that colour map was Supporting's vision of a future United Support.

[Fort York Redcoat]

"Imagine this" :facepalm:

I'd calm down with the facepalm's if you want to be heard there, Supporting. He was trying to inform. That's all.

[Belfast_Boy]

Wasn't 109 moved to 110? And I believe that colour map was Supporting's vision of a future United Support.

ohhh that makes sense.... duh... haven't had my coffee yet today.

carry on

[Supporting]

I'd calm down with the facepalm's if you want to be heard there, Supporting. He was trying to inform. That's all.

haha sorry his previous comment was kinda sassy

[Pint]

Maybe I'm overestimating my group but i think the Kings would need a slightly larger area than is shown in the area suggested stadium map, also nobody from our group has done anything towards a south end move (just making sure i state that here). After seeing how SG114 have been treated while changing sections I would be very hesitant to do it as well.

[eustacchio]

ohhh that makes sense.... duh... haven't had my coffee yet today.

carry on

I've had two coffees and read it the same way that you did, so don't feel too bad. I guess I need my third.

[Belfast_Boy]

haha sorry his previous comment was kinda sassy

and if the 109's have been moved I was wrong.... still no coffee. I need to stop typing.

[Pint]

and if the 109's have been moved I was wrong.... still no coffee. I need to stop typing.

yep 109's started in 109 but were told they wouldn't be able to take 109 so they moved them to the top of 110.

[Supporting]

Maybe I'm overestimating my group but i think the Kings would need a slightly larger area than is shown in the area suggested stadium map, also nobody from our group has done anything towards a south end move (just making sure i state that here). After seeing how SG114 have been treated while changing sections I would be very hesitant to do it as well.

But if everyone made the change together, I guarantee there wouldn't be problems like SG114. The man issue would be united the groups as one.

[Fort York Redcoat]

haha sorry his previous comment was kinda sassy


I've had two coffees and read it the same way that you did, so don't feel too bad. I guess I need my third.

Np guys. BB was informing after reading the first part of your post, Supporting. Not commenting on the "what if" map sarcastically.

[Parkdale]

let's give this one a second reading


my 2 cents.

I've stopped posting here because " These so called Supporters groups are 1% work ethic 99% bullshit "
Do you want to make a difference in the future, make a difference today.
Change today for it will change tomorrow.
I've been doing the same shit game in game out. You want a united south end? Then start tomorrow and bring it to the game and every game after that! then you will see how the puzzles forms itself.

Until then is all talk that amounts to nothing!


yep.

it's not about what you say, it's about what you DO.

here's a checklist:

Go to the game (on time, or early)
cheer for the boys (in red)
put in a little extra effort (bring a flag, or a drum, or help with a banner, whatever)
show respect to the people around you (so don't block their view or spill beer on them and expect them to just accept it)
don't think you're entitled to anything more than the next guy (because we're all in this together)
repeat

[Pint]

But if everyone made the change together, I guarantee there wouldn't be problems like SG114. The man issue would be united the groups as one.

If we are ever approached about something like this we would have to take it to our members... can't really comment further than that because it's not really something that has been discusses

[Parkdale]

But if everyone made the change together, I guarantee there wouldn't be problems like SG114. The man issue would be united the groups as one.

again, that's a strictly theoretical statement. How can you guarantee something like that? You cant.

[ryan]

let's give this one a second reading




yep.

it's not about what you say, it's about what you DO.

here's a checklist:

Go to the game (on time, or early)
cheer for the boys (in red)
put in a little extra effort (bring a flag, or a drum, or help with a banner, whatever)
show respect to the people around you (so don't block their view or spill beer on them and expect them to just accept it)
don't think you're entitled to anything more than the next guy (because we're all in this together)
repeat




Yep. I'm a big fan of that post. Just show up and get to work.

[Belfast_Boy]

let's give this one a second reading




yep.

it's not about what you say, it's about what you DO.

here's a checklist:

Go to the game (on time, or early)
cheer for the boys (in red)
put in a little extra effort (bring a flag, or a drum, or help with a banner, whatever)
show respect to the people around you (so don't block their view or spill beer on them and expect them to just accept it)
don't think you're entitled to anything more than the next guy (because we're all in this together)
repeat



That's one thing GA will cure.

[prizby]

The leadership of both groups work very well together. No problems at all. We have co-operated on many projects and chants over the years. There are a couple of individuals who put down the other group, but it's not a big deal.

I think the reference is probably to some people in 114, not U-Sector.

that didn't seem to be the case on Wednesday

[Parkdale]

we did the massive in sync, we did the ultra call in sync. The drums did a really good job of getting people started together for the slowclaps and 'hands up' chants.

We can always improve, but last weekend was pretty good between 112 and 113.

[jabbronies]

my 2 cents.

I've stopped posting here because " These so called Supporters groups are 1% work ethic 99% bullshit "
Do you want to make a difference in the future, make a difference today.
Change today for it will change tomorrow.
I've been doing the same shit game in game out. You want a united south end? Then start tomorrow and bring it to the game and every game after that! then you will see how the puzzles forms itself.

Until then is all talk that amounts to nothing!


Agreed with this 100%
Unfortunately it seems no one else thought it was worth acknowledging.
Got lost in the BS lol

[FluSH]

again, that's a strictly theoretical statement. How can you guarantee something like that? You cant.

+1

Maybe I've been watching to many political debates, but guarantees are being thrown like Kathleen Wynne and Tim Hudak on here.

I know what we have, I know what has transpired with the other groups, and I know what took us to top of the league support as it was mentioned earlier by someone else. That was Red Patch Boys, Usector, and NEE.

I go back to respect of your fellow supporters, whether they are affiliated or not. Start there, then embrace our differances. That has always been a key ingredient in the success of RPB.

[prizby]

We can always improve, but last weekend was pretty good between 112 and 113.

in the second half

[Cashcleaner]

Well, I haven't posted on other forums if that's you want me to do...? I was just thinking to myself wouldn't it be amazing if all the groups were together in the South section, which would help us with people not singing in these sections. Yes, I admit the bottom of 112-113 is united but we still need to work on the upper portion.

I don't see why you shouldn't. Again, a big chunk of our membership and U-Sector's are already located in the South End. And as seats open up before each season, we have opportunities to bring more members in. So like I said, we're there already and we have a good deal of co-operation between us.

So if the goal is to unite the south - or to be more clear, find a way to bring the smaller supporter groups into the Supporters Section; the best way to do that is to organize them and try to bang out an agreement with the Front Office.

[Cashcleaner]

I understand the conversation, but fuck's sake (next to pro USMNT shite) do I hate reading how great UM02 do on this board.

First off, they are overrated as hell as far as I'm concerned. Sure for 90 they persist, cannot be denied, but it's otherwise "lalalala heyo Montreal". Good job you fucking simpletons. Legendary support with your upside down banners 'n shit. Nice job with the goal banners at the match, blue tape on dirty bed sheets. Fucking skillful they are.

Second off, fuck the Limpact.


I have the weirdest boner for Ryan's post right now.




here's a checklist:

Go to the game (on time, or early)
cheer for the boys (in red)
put in a little extra effort (bring a flag, or a drum, or help with a banner, whatever)
show respect to the people around you (so don't block their view or spill beer on them and expect them to just accept it)
don't think you're entitled to anything more than the next guy (because we're all in this together)
repeat



And now I got one for Parky's...

[denime]

But if everyone made the change together, I guarantee there wouldn't be problems like SG114. The man issue would be united the groups as one.

What makes you think that GA with united south would solve anything?

If supporters were able to work together we would have now one BIG RPB SG,and U-Sector.

Why we don't have it?

Well,since according to you ,you are "new" here I'll try to pitch you in with some history of TFC support,you should know that Former NEE ,SG 111 and SG114 members (most of them if not all at one point of time) were RPB,and left because RPB did not want to support TFC their way,they split and started their own SGs,first two don't exist anymore,and last one wont last long aether,for one simple reason,none of them is ready to take responsibilities for their action and eventually TFC FO will have to act.

Some people want GA because it would allow them to hide the shit they pull,shit that eventually would cost all of us in south to pay a steep price.

I read 'Section 8' in Chicago and Portland were mention as example,both SGs have structure,process,and most importantly accountability,board of elected members is running whole show,while rest of membership follows.

Until we get this all sorted out ,starting with accountability of every supporter in south,united south will be nothing else then pipe dream.

(EDIT: Removed the "spoiled" bit. Not needed. ~Shakes)

[Belfast_Boy]

That'll help foster a spirit of cooperation…

Just to keep you up on current events. we met with fo this week and they didn't seem to have anything to "act" on.

The groups are trying to work together despite some members acting like teenagers.

Like I said in an earlier post some have stirred up shit in the past. Myself included and that was a mistake. Our little group has even joined rpb at joes with no negative consequences. I really believe cooperation is possible if we all put our big boy pants on.

[FluSH]

Like I said in an earlier post some have stirred up shit in the past. Myself included and that was a mistake. Our little group has even joined rpb at joes with no negative consequences.

We would never make anyone feel unwelcomed in our bar - You know this being a former RPB. Before you were a member we even invited NEE as well on a couple of occasions and they came and sat down at my table.

Usector, well they have always had their own bar and never had a need or want to go to Joe's... We joined them once for a big march at Mauro?! That was prety good.

[Yohan]

Hell, even Whitecaps supporters went to the Joe's without incident

[Belfast_Boy]

We would never make anyone feel unwelcomed in our bar - You know this being a former RPB. Before you were a member we even invited NEE as well on a couple of occasions and they came and sat down at my table.

Usector, well they have always had their own bar and never had a need or want to go to Joe's... We joined them once for a big march at Mauro?! That was prety good.

Yup Flush. Always felt welcome at Joes. Many good times and more to come.

[Phil]

At RPB, we have taken years to implement structure and support for our team. We have looked to other supporters groups around the MLS and beyond to see what steps have been taken to strengthen support. As a result, we have incorporated our group as a not for profit and looked to comply by MLS rules for both home and away support. Our goal is to have strong support for any Toronto FC game within our league and contribute to Football culture and awareness. We work with the team to ensure continued access to our section when relocation season is here, and provide us access to our beloved team at our groups events. We also strive to have a place on the internet to discuss our boys in red, along with supporting charities and youth teams in the community.

Moving forward as a group, we are looking to enhance the support for the team and feel the first positive step is the installation of a roof on the south stand. It will help us unite in voice and really that is what is being asked in this thread. Merging the groups would be a long process that we are not ready to take that on at this point. It would require a board that represents the groups and represents its membership appropriately and require an election process that is fair. Other groups would have to agree to these terms in order to move forward however there are some pretty big divides existing in the attitudes towards support as it stands. Accountability is another major factor in this, we are doing our best at RPB to be accountable to our membership and team.

Our mandate for this season is to strengthen our voices in the stands with U-Sector who reside in the section next to us, as well as helping our other RPB sections in 111 and the top part of 110 that is shared with Original 109. Uniting these voices in the stands will be when we can examine the other challenges in Toronto FC supporting culture. The expansion of the stadium holds many exciting possibilities, a roof and maybe the chance to relocate. All of this is something that we have yet to be officially consulted on but I know for a fact that we will be sitting at the table when the team calls.

At this point we have a private members discussion dealing with the issue and this public one seems to invite accusations and drama, both things we don't need on the message board. We all look forward to supporting the team in the stands, either home or away with our brothers and sisters with Pride, Passion and Purpose.