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AdamAM
05-28-2014, 11:32 PM
I think it's safe to say that we now all know Nelsen is not a good coach. Multiple baffling subs/formations have happened that not even a rep level coach would do. We know he's a people person, but he's not a tactician in the slightest. So my question is, what is, as it stands now, this teams potential under a proven MLS coach? (Kreis, Sigi, Arena, Pareja, Petke) I'm asking this because I think Nelsen's leash is getting shorter and shorter with each game, and he'll be fired soon enough. I think Leiweke is gonna make a big splash with this next head coach, and I think if it's the right guy, TFC can go deep into the playoffs, to around the Eastern Conference Finals, probably bowing out to SKC.

The right coach would be able to get even more out of Bradley, playing him in a more attacking roaming position instead of a defensive roaming position, all while making sure the backline is still covered by Warner/Orr. He could also move Gilberto behind Defoe, where he would be much more effective imo, because he's got the pace and control to push the backline and make them make a mistake, thus leading to Defoe finding some space ;)

ExiledRed
05-29-2014, 01:05 AM
There are people who support this team that will claim he is a genius right up until the day he is fired. Then they will act like they never liked him.

I'm on the fence with this guy. I dont see good things happening. I do see an improvement in the attitudes of the players, but the organization and tactics are as stale as ever.

I don't trust that an unproven managers poor results are not related to his inexperience, and I dont think success starved TFC should be the place for new managers to get experience, unless they prove they are special.

I dont believe Nelsen is special, but Im dying for him to prove me wrong, because the truth is, I just want a coach I can put my faith in and go back to blindly supporting the team like I do for Liverpool.

For Liverpool I was in the 'this guy isnt blooded enough' camp for Rodgers. I wanted Rafa back, and I resented what happened to Dalglish. Rodgers proved me wrong very quickly. I could see what he was doing and despite the fact that we didnt improve our standings in his first year, we could all see the change in direction he was taking and we were able to stay optimistic because the new direction was exciting.

With Nelsen I see the opposite. I dont see 'gelling', I dont see what direction we're supposed to be going in and I don't see any consistency at all. I am not excitred by the future, but terrified that we just became the Watford of MLS.

Rodgers was on top of the situation by year two. If he hadnt been , he would be gone. Why is Nelsen, in his second year, exempt from needing to show something for his time here?
Why, without any consistent improvement on the pitch do people trust this unknown quantity?

I believe that an experienced coach with a proven track record, could have taken almost any squad we've had and made the playoffs. This squad is absolutely no exception.

reggie
05-29-2014, 01:15 AM
im not a fan of his style,but I will wait until we get our full midfield together,bradley,warner,oso, and somebody new on the wing,i really like rey,but he has been ave at best so far,and gilberto does not look the part so far..

Shakes McQueen
05-29-2014, 01:54 AM
I'm still undecided on Nelsen overall, as I wonder if another guy to more reliably get Defoe the ball (for example) would make his tactics more successful. There's no doubt that he's still missing some quality pieces, which will have to come with some patience, and shrewd moves by Tim B.

That said, I've had enough of the Preki-style "defend and hang on for dear life" stuff, seemingly every week. I've seen Nelsen deploy intelligent tactics before - we played Columbus like a fiddle by letting them try to hoof in crosses to their small forwards' heads all day - but doing the same thing against every team? His use of our subs has also left a lot to do desired, after a pretty good start to the season I thought.

I'm still hopeful that this is just him sussing out what some of these guys can do, and how to best use them - but he doesn't have a lot longer to raise their game, before someone like Tim L drops the axe.

We are still 5th best in league for points per game, so this is hardly Aron Winter territory, but the majority of those games have still been ugly slogs with one or two bright moments that saved us. They need to be more than that.

Oldtimer
05-29-2014, 05:42 AM
I think it's too early to say we "know" that Nelsen "is not a good coach."
He is an inexperienced coach.
The only measurement that counts is MLS playoffs.

Pookie
05-29-2014, 06:03 AM
One of TFC's main challenges in keeping possession and moving the ball on the ground is passing and receiving. Basic stuff.

The team has one of the worst passing accuracy metrics in MLS.

Is that on the coach?

adam1001
05-29-2014, 07:09 AM
One of TFC's main challenges in keeping possession and moving the ball on the ground is passing and receiving. Basic stuff.

The team has one of the worst passing accuracy metrics in MLS.

Is that on the coach?
Absolutely. It shows that players don't know when to anticipate passes or how to move off the ball. These are skills that are acquired through training sessions. There is no tactical vision or methodology in moving the ball forward on this team. We simply hoof the ball forward, or make pointless passes in the middle of the park leading to turnovers.

Section 117
05-29-2014, 07:27 AM
Absolutely. It shows that players don't know when to anticipate passes or how to move off the ball. These are skills that are acquired through training sessions. There is no tactical vision or methodology in moving the ball forward on this team. We simply hoof the ball forward, or make pointless passes in the middle of the park leading to turnovers.

I'm sorry this is not on Neslon that is all on the players... They are professionals who get paid to play and if they can't do what i bolded from your comment then they should be punted... If you want to blame Nelson for his formation and subs fine, but to blame him because players don't move or can't pass a ball for the life of them is dead wrong.

Last night I lost count of how many times a TFC palyer made a pass and it was the right idea but wrong execution. Meaning the ball should be played on the floor and it was wasit hign or ball should have went over the top and the palyed it on the floor. I will reserve judgement until we have the full team together sometime in July

jabbronies
05-29-2014, 07:35 AM
TFC players need to stop making stupid mistakes before we can actually 100% blame the manager.
Right now TFC's faults are 50% players 50% managers fault.

They are playing a stale system that doesn't make for good football

But that system doesn't tell them to hand the ball over to the other team with shitty passes
or to go to ground instead of fight for a clear 50/50 ball
or just head the ball in the air without any purpose
or long passes to a guy halfway across the pitch being covered by 2 guys and hope he gets it
or not watch your runs so that you are onside when the pass goes through
or to hold on to the ball for 2 seconds too long and then do nothing with it once all of your open lanes are closed down

and then repeat all of these mistakes over and over again in a single game

This team is still a work in progress
Prime example from last night - when Morgan was subbed off and Morrow came on - the whole right side of the pitch changed and the game was flowing much better on that side of the pitch.

There are still holes in this team - IMO until that is sorted - I don't see how another manager will make things better.
If some of these guys can't even play this mundane style how in the fuck will they play something more free flowing and complicated?

Fort York Redcoat
05-29-2014, 07:55 AM
There are people who support this team that will claim he is a genius right up until the day he is fired. Then they will act like they never liked him.

I'm on the fence with this guy. I dont see good things happening. I do see an improvement in the attitudes of the players, but the organization and tactics are as stale as ever.

I don't trust that an unproven managers poor results are not related to his inexperience, and I dont think success starved TFC should be the place for new managers to get experience, unless they prove they are special.


"People" sounds plural and I haven't seen or heard one person yet put "Nelsen" and "Genius" in the same sentence. You're being extreme in your assessment.

I think last night was undeniably a poor game from both the management decisions and play quality. The first we have heard an excuse for unfortunately- Nelsen does not prioritize this tourney by his own admission so as much as I won't excuse him at least there's been a reason for it. The poor quality of play , and we're talking about the basics as above, can't be wholly put on the manager but there is always a point where one has to make sure the manager is one the players respond to.

Sat will be a better sample since Nelsen had been doing better the past 2 regular season games. Last night looked like a preseason game at times.

David_Oliveira
05-29-2014, 08:23 AM
I am leaning to the side that his decisions are starting to cost us none more than the KC game. That was a game we should have won (which is weird to say considering how good KC has been over the last few years and our track record in the past against them).

Subbing in Henry was a bad move considering who the ref was and his track record. I would have moved Orr to CB, pushed Warner to his natural CM and brought in Dero on at LM. You get that experience back in D that you lost when Caldwell was sent off.

As soon as Henry came in, I told the people I was watching the game with that he was going to give up a PK. Toledo is always going to be whistle happy. You have to try and negate him almost as much as you have to negate your opponent.

In 5 games this year, he's given 141 fouls, 22 cards, and 3 penalties. We have also lost both games he has reffed. On average, Baldy is giving 4.4 cards per game and calling for penalties once every other game.

But hindsight is 20-20

Canary10
05-29-2014, 08:25 AM
Anyone who says he has no tactical knowledge or a direction is dead wrong. He knows exactly what his tactics and direction are, the problem is most people are not a fan of it.

C.Ronaldo
05-29-2014, 08:36 AM
against MTL, any other coach would have started subbing guys off when the flames were getting too hot, but no. Nelson choose time and time again to get burnt. Like its a life lesson he is trying to drive home.

and its true he knows his tactic, but his tactic is dead wrong for MLS and dead wrong when your DP is not scoring

ryan
05-29-2014, 08:58 AM
I don't like his player selection. I don't like our use of subs. I don't like our form. I don't like our total lack of offensive...anything. I don't like how fucking boring this team continues to be.

However. We're in a decent spot in the table. The players seem to like him. There's no locker room chaos (that I know of.) So we got that going for us, which is nice.

Richard
05-29-2014, 09:18 AM
Anyone who says he has no tactical knowledge or a direction is dead wrong. He knows exactly what his tactics and direction are, the problem is most people are not a fan of it.

My biggest gripe with him is his lack of tactical flexibility. Does that mean he has a lack of knowledge? I'm not entirely sure at the moment, Winter never budged from his 4-3-3 does that mean he was dumb too? Even the best managers in the world do not use the same formation every game, it seems like teams adjust to us fairly easily while we continue to struggle to exploit bad teams like Montreal.

Gilberto is a perfect example, a striker who is jinxed at the moment but has the skill set to play another position like AM or CF should be moved around, not trotted out doing the same thing.

maninb
05-29-2014, 09:21 AM
I think Nelson is a VERY GOOD defensive coach, but must improve his attacking schemes....Of course if Gilberto could hit the broadside of a barn that would be helpful...

Ultra & Proud
05-29-2014, 09:30 AM
Anyone who says he has no tactical knowledge or a direction is dead wrong. He knows exactly what his tactics and direction are, the problem is most people are not a fan of it.
This is what it is. With past managers including Winter you could say this because if you went to a "B" squad or brought in newer players they were lost. Same with Mariner. Whether it was having no tactical plan (Mariner) or not being able to properly instruct the players on how to carry out the game plan (Winter), you could see that players were lost and that lead to poor shapes and a massive goals against every year. Now when we get new players, bench guys, or academy kids they all know where to be and what to do. That is having a tactical plan and you can see that players are buying into it. Whether it's because the plan is simple or whether it will change when we settle remains to be seen but we do have tactics as Canary said. Just not the tactics some folks want. After many seasons of giving up boat loads of goals against and being rooted to the basement of MLS, I will take this approach for now and the points that come with it.

Of course, if Gilberto's strike rate was even moderately decent we'd be having a different chat right now.

jabbronies
05-29-2014, 09:44 AM
My biggest gripe with him is his lack of tactical flexibility. Does that mean he has a lack of knowledge? I'm not entirely sure at the moment, Winter never budged from his 4-3-3 does that mean he was dumb too? Even the best managers in the world do not use the same formation every game, it seems like teams adjust to us fairly easily while we continue to struggle to exploit bad teams like Montreal.

Gilberto is a perfect example, a striker who is jinxed at the moment but has the skill set to play another position like AM or CF should be moved around, not trotted out doing the same thing.

So what? Last night you move Gilberto into an AM role....who then is he feeding? Andrew Weideman or Dero? Or do you then have to trot out Defo as a lone striker because the two non-DP guys I just mentioned are not reliable enough to score?

You can't look at Gilberto alone and assume moving him somewhere else on the pitch is the answer to the problem.
It opens up other problems around the pitch.

Canary10
05-29-2014, 10:12 AM
This is what it is. With past managers including Winter you could say this because if you went to a "B" squad or brought in newer players they were lost. Same with Mariner. Whether it was having no tactical plan (Mariner) or not being able to properly instruct the players on how to carry out the game plan (Winter), you could see that players were lost and that lead to poor shapes and a massive goals against every year. Now when we get new players, bench guys, or academy kids they all know where to be and what to do. That is having a tactical plan and you can see that players are buying into it. Whether it's because the plan is simple or whether it will change when we settle remains to be seen but we do have tactics as Canary said. Just not the tactics some folks want. After many seasons of giving up boat loads of goals against and being rooted to the basement of MLS, I will take this approach for now and the points that come with it.

Of course, if Gilberto's strike rate was even moderately decent we'd be having a different chat right now.

It would be nice if the media would question him more on this. He's getting a bit of a free ride from them right now and fans don't have a chance to question him after every game.

ManUtd4ever
05-29-2014, 10:33 AM
Nelsen could very well be a good coach. He's just not proving to be the right fit for our squad thus far.

prizby
05-29-2014, 10:44 AM
I think it's safe to say that we now all know Nelsen is not a good coach. Multiple baffling subs/formations have happened that not even a rep level coach would do. We know he's a people person, but he's not a tactician in the slightest. So my question is, what is, as it stands now, this teams potential under a proven MLS coach? (Kreis, Sigi, Arena, Pareja, Petke) I'm asking this because I think Nelsen's leash is getting shorter and shorter with each game, and he'll be fired soon enough. I think Leiweke is gonna make a big splash with this next head coach, and I think if it's the right guy, TFC can go deep into the playoffs, to around the Eastern Conference Finals, probably bowing out to SKC.

The right coach would be able to get even more out of Bradley, playing him in a more attacking roaming position instead of a defensive roaming position, all while making sure the backline is still covered by Warner/Orr. He could also move Gilberto behind Defoe, where he would be much more effective imo, because he's got the pace and control to push the backline and make them make a mistake, thus leading to Defoe finding some space ;)

huh...Petke is a good coach? I'd argue Arena isn't that great either, he just always had players to take him over the top. The problem is, you fire him now, WHO do you replace him with...there isn't a 'good' coach out there with MLS experience (and don't tell me Jesse Marsch lol)


we have played a total of 1 game with our 'best' XI (which we won)

Cesar/Bendik
Bloom-Caldwell-Hagglund/Henry-Morrow
Jackson-Bradley-Osorio-Rey
Gilberto/Moore-Defoe

Canary10
05-29-2014, 10:47 AM
huh...Petke is a good coach? I'd argue Arena isn't that great either, he just always had players to take him over the top. The problem is, you fire him now, WHO do you replace him with...there isn't a 'good' coach out there with MLS experience (and don't tell me Jesse Marsch lol)

In MLS right now there are only maybe three coaches with a lot of MLS experience and a record you can point to as being good: Arena, Kinnear and Schmidt. Unless we get one of those, we are just trading for another coach with some form of similar liability to what Nelsen has.

PopePouri
05-29-2014, 10:56 AM
If you want tactical inflexibility then look no further than Bruce Arena. For I think 3 straight seasons, he played a flat 4-4-2 only.

MikeM
05-29-2014, 12:53 PM
I think Nelson is a VERY GOOD defensive coach, but must improve his attacking schemes....Of course if Gilberto could hit the broadside of a barn that would be helpful...

Nelsen is not a good defensive coach. He is just lining up two banks of four and praying. We are conceding possession, even in dangerous areas. We are not attempting to win balls high up the field. We are not using the touchline as an extra defender. We are not swarming the ball. We are not forcing bad passes and anticipating to create counter attacks. The forwards are not funneling play and pressuring. Our team does not move high up the pitch as a unit. There are too many gaps when we dare to venture outside of our own 18.

We are bunkering, not defending.

Phil
05-29-2014, 01:18 PM
I get frustrated by Nelsens lack of creativity with tactics and that pretty much puts me on the fence with him.

Coaches from the past that I had a lot of disdain openly for after trying to give them a shot - Mariner, Preki

Nelsen hasn't fallen to that level for me, just really unsure about him and the amount of assistant coaches he needs to line up a 4-4-2 countering team every game.

ExiledRed
05-29-2014, 01:42 PM
I think it's too early to say we "know" that Nelsen "is not a good coach."

I agree with this.....somewhat.

I think its too early to know if Nelsen is going to learn how to be a good coach.

All I want is to get a coach who we KNOW is good before we hire him.

Just once.... you know, for a change.

Huyton
05-29-2014, 03:45 PM
If MLS experience was not a factor, who would you bring in?

Super
05-29-2014, 04:22 PM
I'd just like to see more entertaining football. That's obviously a given for any football supporter, but I do feel that our style of play is far more boring than should be tolerated. The results have been acceptable overall, but we have yet to really dominate a game, and more often than not we appear to be kinda lucky to win games/points. It's a bit random for me. It makes me think that Nelsen doesn't know what he's doing. It's hard not to feel that way right now. Hopefully Nelsen is working towards something greater. On paper we have a great team, and we should be able to dominate games, and play a style of football that we can all be proud of - and win games in the process. That should be the goal. Leiweke came out swinging, talking about success, and becoming a super club in the league. We have to be much, much better to be considered a top club in this league. Not sure Nelsen's direction is the right one.

barticusz
05-29-2014, 04:29 PM
Just wait for the return of Bradley. If Warner can hold down the DM role, Bradley will have the ability to control the attacking side of the midfield. No more Bekker and Osorio would be a blessing.

OgtheDim
05-29-2014, 04:48 PM
It is really difficult to look good as a manager if your midfield is crap.

Moyes can tell you all that.

Laba has not been replaced.
Rey has proven, IMHO, to be ineffectual.
Jackson is great defensively, but near useless going forward.
Osorio is injured and not ready yet.
DeRo isn't a side midfielder anymore.

We'll see about Warner and Lovitz.

When /if we get a decent partner for Bradley and a couple of decent side midfielders, we'll know if Nelsen is any good.

ryan
05-29-2014, 05:07 PM
Why are people so hung up on MLS experience?

The wonky fucked up financial side of MLS is Tim B's problem, not Nelsen's. Otherwise, it's just fucking football. At least that's how I see it.

OgtheDim
05-29-2014, 05:22 PM
Salary cap
Distance
Weather
Travel only allowed on scheduled flights
Technical ability of the domestics

All different then any other league

trane
05-29-2014, 05:38 PM
^ our mid is not crap. Under the right system we could have a great mid.
----Orr----Bradley-----Warner----
-------Moore------Defoe------------------------
-------------Gilberto----------------
or
---Orr----Bradley-----Warner----
-----------Osario/Dero-----------
--------Gilberto---Defoe---
Or
-----Orr----Bradley-----Warner----
Jackson-----------------------------Lovitz/Rey
------------Gilberto/Defoe-------------


The point being we have more then a couple of good players, we just need to find the formation to get the best out of them as a team. This is were Nelsen is underwhelming, he does not seem to have much flexibility, a bit like Winter. Although clearly he has found a system style that has been more successful.

T-boy
05-29-2014, 05:43 PM
The question is really - would another coach get more out of our current players than Nelson?

Would another coach stop Henry from making silly mistakes?
Would another coach give Rey more ability to take on a player and create a chance?
Would another coach get Gilberto to actually finish an opportunity?
Would another coach make Dero play like a 20-something?
Would another coach get Osorio fit?

Really, the answer to all to the above is no. No coach would change any of that.

Another issue is that another coach would also be handcuffed by not having Bradley currently with the squad. Bradley, when he's playing to his full ability and not look like he's holding back a little for the US team (like he did just before he left), makes a massive difference.

I'm just not sure any other coach is going to be able to change any of these elements.

I've never known such an impatient bunch of sports fans than in Toronto!

trane
05-29-2014, 05:47 PM
^ I do not agree with that. For every issue a coach can find a solution, either the player that makes these mistakes, is benched and replaced, or he is put in a position were he is less likely to be a liability and were his strenghs are shown, or protected.

For example you have crap CBs, you shield them with good DMs. You have a De Ro who can no longer run, you put in him in positions were he can still score, but do not make him run back and forth. Ect. Ect. Ect. This is why coaches are key in Football, and really all team sports.

trane
05-29-2014, 05:53 PM
Too be clear I am not anti-Nelsen, I think he has done ok, but I am underwhelmed by his tactics. I think that we are more solid, but I do not believe we are getting everything we can out of our team.

Defoe, is a great finisher, and great on the counter, he is quick and deadly, and yet we have not really capitalized on that either. I know you hate defensive football, but with Defoe, if we really put 10 man behind the ball, and really forced the other side to have to press hard to create chances, we could catch them on a counter on many more occasions then we do. And yet despite being a relatively "defensive team" we do not. In some ways we are a very, very standard European style team, yes defense first, good counter game, but even at that we do not truly excel. Or we would have won at least another 3 games.

[By the way this would also play to Bradley's strength after years in Italy, he knows how to put a great through ball and long pass onto the attacker alla Pirlo]

lobo
05-29-2014, 06:15 PM
I've never known such an impatient bunch of sports fans than in Toronto!

Perhaps you haven't been to many other places. I'm really not sure why a few ppl on this board regularly feel the need to generalize about 'Toronto sports fans'. It just adds nonsense to any post.

TorontoGooner
05-29-2014, 06:26 PM
Ok, I'm done here....

glaze
05-29-2014, 06:46 PM
I think people are being a bit impatient with the team.
With the off-season signings I feel people thought we'd be at the top of the standings, and among the league's elite.
Vegas oddsmakers felt otherwise, as TFC was still middle of the pack.
Making the playoffs this year should be the realistic goal, and with the games in hand, I feel we are in a good position to do that.
Last year we were losing games late, this year we are scoring late goals and picking up points on the road.
Give it time.

Lumpy
05-29-2014, 07:04 PM
I think Nelson is doing a pretty good job. If we win our next two league games I would say he is doing a really good job.

jloome
05-29-2014, 07:47 PM
Too be clear I am not anti-Nelsen, I think he has done ok, but I am underwhelmed by his tactics. I think that we are more solid, but I do not believe we are getting everything we can out of our team.

Defoe, is a great finisher, and great on the counter, he is quick and deadly, and yet we have not really capitalized on that either. I know you hate defensive football, but with Defoe, if we really put 10 man behind the ball, and really forced the other side to have to press hard to create chances, we could catch them on a counter on many more occasions then we do. And yet despite being a relatively "defensive team" we do not. In some ways we are a very, very standard European style team, yes defense first, good counter game, but even at that we do not truly excel. Or we would have won at least another 3 games.

[By the way this would also play to Bradley's strength after years in Italy, he knows how to put a great through ball and long pass onto the attacker alla Pirlo]

Agreed on all fronts. I'd prefer us to save the counter for away games, which in MLS the home team wins 80% of the time, and have a quick-passing 4-2-3-1 for home games or games against weaker opponents.

trane
05-29-2014, 07:57 PM
^ I do not disagree. My only thing with a 4-2-3-1 is were to play Bradley, would you play him as the CAM?

OgtheDim
05-29-2014, 09:04 PM
We can not change the system because we have yet to have a week go by without at least two of our potential central midfielders injured. We are constantly playing with either someone coming back from injury or with new partners.

shwade
05-29-2014, 09:04 PM
^ I do not disagree. My only thing with a 4-2-3-1 is were to play Bradley, would you play him as the CAM?

CAM with Orr and Warner as the back 2?

Cashcleaner
05-29-2014, 10:00 PM
Been working this out in my head for a few weeks now.

But my opinion about Nelsen is pretty much this: Toronto FC brought in some very serious names in the off-season. Micheal Bradley is arguably one of the top three American players on the pitch today. Jermaine Defoe was one of the most prolific Strikers at Tottenham and comes with an extensive record playing at the highest level of pro soccer. And Cesar is going to be minding goal for the World Cup favourites this summer!

We are a club that started this season awash in talent, there's little doubt in my mind. But I have to question whether or not that talent has really been living up to it's potential. To use a crude analogy, I feel at times like this club is a luxury sports car that's driving by a guy with only a G2 licence and who is still learning to drive stick. We got over 600 horses under the hood, but are having some pretty jerky stops and starts as we go along the road.

ExiledRed
05-29-2014, 10:15 PM
Too be clear I am not anti-Nelsen, I think he has done ok, but I am underwhelmed by his tactics. I think that we are more solid, but I do not believe we are getting everything we can out of our team.

Defoe, is a great finisher, and great on the counter, he is quick and deadly, and yet we have not really capitalized on that either. I know you hate defensive football, but with Defoe, if we really put 10 man behind the ball, and really forced the other side to have to press hard to create chances, we could catch them on a counter on many more occasions then we do. And yet despite being a relatively "defensive team" we do not. In some ways we are a very, very standard European style team, yes defense first, good counter game, but even at that we do not truly excel. Or we would have won at least another 3 games.

[By the way this would also play to Bradley's strength after years in Italy, he knows how to put a great through ball and long pass onto the attacker alla Pirlo]


If I took a crap in a modern art gallery , eventually it would have a crowd of people standing around it, asking who the artist is. And why not? That is the state of modern art. It is not unfeasible an artist would do that. Its probably been done already. The assumption that my faeces is actually an artists statement could be quite legitimate.

That is what longball is, it deceptively pretends to be clever counterattacking or sophisticated defensive style play, and sometimes it looks like that. Why not think that our longball style is clever counterattacking under development? Its all the rage these days isnt it?

It's not. It's just longball which in a nutshell is trying to make the game unplayable and unpredictable by keeping the ball in the air and negating any creative play on the deck.

ExiledRed
05-29-2014, 10:19 PM
OK, Im drunk. But Ill leave the post up there for posterity. hahaha

jloome
05-29-2014, 10:27 PM
^ I do not disagree. My only thing with a 4-2-3-1 is were to play Bradley, would you play him as the CAM?

I'd play him as the late trailer. He played as a mostly defensive midfielder at Hereenven but still managed to pot 18 goals, mostly from the top of the box. Keep in mind if they do it right, when he's forward the other DM is back and vice-versa.

I'd play it as
-------------Bendik-------------
Bloom--Hagglund/Henry--Caldwell--Morrow
-------Bradley---Orr--------------
--Gilberto---Osorio---Rey------
-----------Defoe----------------------

When the central midfielder, fulback and wide midfielder are advancing the ball, the fullback can either go wide (i.e. Bloom wide with Gilberto at the top of the triangle and Bradley parallel to bloom) or switch inside and be the bottom of an inverted triangle with Bradley moving centrally and Gilberto wide. It's a good mixup for the cover because it pulls them between defensive zones.

If the ball goes centrally, Bradley would play the bottom of the triangle to Osorio and Gilberto and then move into the space of whomever advances the play.

While the ball is advancing, Orr drops back behind. If it goes up his flank, he takes up the supporting role and Bradley drops back.

This way, we have Bradley as the trailer two-thirds of the time, depending on the field the ball goes to, but we always have supporting movement and we always have a midfielder joining the attack.

jloome
05-29-2014, 10:35 PM
^ I do not disagree. My only thing with a 4-2-3-1 is were to play Bradley, would you play him as the CAM?

I'd play him as the late trailer. He played as a mostly defensive midfielder at Hereenven but still managed to pot 18 goals, mostly from the top of the box. Keep in mind if they do it right, when he's forward the other DM is back and vice-versa.

I'd play it as
-------------Bendik-------------
Bloom--Hagglund/Henry--Caldwell--Morrow
-------Bradley---Orr--------------
--Gilberto---Osorio---Rey------
-----------Defoe----------------------

When the central midfielder, fulback and wide midfielder are advancing the ball, the fullback can either go wide (bloom wide with Gilberto at the top of the triangle and Bradley parallel to bloom) or switch inside and be the bottom of an inverted triangle with Bradley moving centrally and Gilberto wide. It's a good mixup for the cover because it pulls them between defensive zones.

If the ball goes centrally, Bradley would play the bottom of the triangle to Osorio and Gilberto and then move into the space of whomever advances the play.

While the ball is advancing, Orr drops back behind. If it goes up his flank, he takes up the supporting role and Bradley drops back.

This way, we have Bradley as the trailer two-thirds of the time, depending on the field the ball goes to, but we always have supporting movement and we always have a midfielder joining the attack. Defoe goes near post either side if someone goes wide, the wide mid on the weak side goes to the far post and Osorio goes to the spot. The trailing defensive mid picks up scraps. Oriel Rosell does this really well for KC.

jloome
05-29-2014, 10:37 PM
Weird. Instead of editing it reposted. Verdammt technology.

Yohan
05-29-2014, 11:38 PM
I'd play him as the late trailer. He played as a mostly defensive midfielder at Hereenven but still managed to pot 18 goals, mostly from the top of the box. Keep in mind if they do it right, when he's forward the other DM is back and vice-versa.

I'd play it as
-------------Bendik-------------
Bloom--Hagglund/Henry--Caldwell--Morrow
-------Bradley---Orr--------------
--Gilberto---Osorio---Rey------
-----------Defoe----------------------

When the central midfielder, fulback and wide midfielder are advancing the ball, the fullback can either go wide (bloom wide with Gilberto at the top of the triangle and Bradley parallel to bloom) or switch inside and be the bottom of an inverted triangle with Bradley moving centrally and Gilberto wide. It's a good mixup for the cover because it pulls them between defensive zones.

If the ball goes centrally, Bradley would play the bottom of the triangle to Osorio and Gilberto and then move into the space of whomever advances the play.

While the ball is advancing, Orr drops back behind. If it goes up his flank, he takes up the supporting role and Bradley drops back.

This way, we have Bradley as the trailer two-thirds of the time, depending on the field the ball goes to, but we always have supporting movement and we always have a midfielder joining the attack. Defoe goes near post either side if someone goes wide, the wide mid on the weak side goes to the far post and Osorio goes to the spot. The trailing defensive mid picks up scraps. Oriel Rosell does this really well for KC.
I like that formation, except I'd sub in Lovitz instead of Rey based upon form.

I'd also experiment with Bradley at AM and Osorio in a box to box role. Go full court press with Gilberto, Bradley and Lovitz high pressure on opposition defenders to try to create turnovers. Gilberto has the work rate, and he is tenacious tracking back. Bradley has uncanny anticipation and Lovitz looks like he'll do the job defensively as well. Both fullbacks pressing up as required and Osorio/Orr as next line of defence if opposition manages to get the ball to the midfield. Bradley has good enough passing range and vision to play AM in MLS.

jloome
05-29-2014, 11:48 PM
I like that formation, except I'd sub in Lovitz instead of Rey based upon form.

I'd also experiment with Bradley at AM and Osorio in a box to box role. Go full court press with Gilberto, Bradley and Lovitz high pressure on opposition defenders to try to create turnovers. Gilberto has the work rate, and he is tenacious tracking back. Bradley has uncanny anticipation and Lovitz looks like he'll do the job defensively as well. Both fullbacks pressing up as required and Osorio/Orr as next line of defence if opposition manages to get the ball to the midfield. Bradley has good enough passing range and vision to play AM in MLS.

Yeah, that would work too. Plus, it demonstrates the formation is flexible with our current roster. We can lose a part and it should still keep ticking.

I like your high pressure idea. Lots of errors waiting to happen in the average MLS backline.

Pookie
05-30-2014, 06:12 AM
We are all missing one of the obvious and most important questions.

This team has young players. Next season, barring an assinine move to trade they away, this team will have multiple first round draft picks.

The biggest question that nobody asks is whether this entire coaching staff are the ones to develop these players?

Bent, Oughton, Brennan and Nelsen are all former players. Recent former players. They must have about 11 years of total coaching experience between them.

?

Sweeper
05-30-2014, 07:51 AM
I would say development from this season's draft picks has been quite good. Nelson and Co have done well to develop those players and get them performing adequately in the first team. I look forward to what they will do with multiple first round picks in the next draft. I don't see TFC trading those picks away.

T-boy
05-30-2014, 08:01 AM
Perhaps you haven't been to many other places. I'm really not sure why a few ppl on this board regularly feel the need to generalize about 'Toronto sports fans'. It just adds nonsense to any post.

To be fair, clearly I haven't lived in many cities in the world long enough to want to actively support their sports teams and take THAT much notice of the fans.

In my previous life as an Oxord United season ticket holder I supported the team from Championship level all the way to out of the English football league. And in that time they did lose some support, but the majority of fans stuck with the team. Now in Toronto, they lose 2 games in a row, and somebody decides to never watch the team again! Impatient in comparison? I'd say yes!

ryan
05-30-2014, 08:43 AM
To be fair, clearly I haven't lived in many cities in the world long enough to want to actively support their sports teams and take THAT much notice of the fans.

In my previous life as an Oxord United season ticket holder I supported the team from Championship level all the way to out of the English football league. And in that time they did lose some support, but the majority of fans stuck with the team. Now in Toronto, they lose 2 games in a row, and somebody decides to never watch the team again! Impatient in comparison? I'd say yes!

The difference being that Oxford doesn't have a slew of stumbling-in-the-abyss pro franchises already angering the sports fan base for decades.

Still agree overall, patience is lacking, but that's why IMO.

jabbronies
05-30-2014, 08:49 AM
^ our mid is not crap. Under the right system we could have a great mid.
----Orr----Bradley-----Warner----
-------Moore------Defoe------------------------
-------------Gilberto----------------
or
---Orr----Bradley-----Warner----
-----------Osario/Dero-----------
--------Gilberto---Defoe---
Or
-----Orr----Bradley-----Warner----
Jackson-----------------------------Lovitz/Rey
------------Gilberto/Defoe-------------


The point being we have more then a couple of good players, we just need to find the formation to get the best out of them as a team. This is were Nelsen is underwhelming, he does not seem to have much flexibility, a bit like Winter. Although clearly he has found a system style that has been more successful.

See, this is where I defend Nelsen.
You say we have a great midfielder, but I look at those guys you have listed and most of them have barley been with the team this season.

Most of them have been injured at various times
A couple of them just joined the team
1 of them is gone for about 2 months

You can't setup a midfield where Bradley is the lynch pin and stick to it when he is gone.
There is no one who can replace him because every other player we have does not have the full compliment of skill that he has.

You've got Dero on there - but he can barley play 60 minutes/game So you can't build anything around him
Jackson may never come back - and Rey is proving to be very 1 dimensional so we are lacking on the wings

Orr is a utility guy - great utility guy - but we need to think bigger for starting 11

Not sure why you would drop Defoe behind Gilberto - We are getting results and Defoe is scoring - why risk the points just cos 1 guy can't score?I get the whole play to your players, but not play to 1 guy who hasn't proved himself.

Im not shitting on the players - but this is the reality of what we have.
The formation we are playing basically acts as a buffer to the major deficiencies we have around the pitch.
How can you be flexible when you have guys who are extremely limited in their talent making up a bulk of your midfield?

No one on TFC ever said this was it, this is the team that will take us to a championship. They have all been cautious and stated TFC is still a work in progress. We are still in phase 1 of 3 phases IMO

Phase 1 - Build a playoff team
Phase 2 - Build a contender
Phase 3 - Build a championship team

This is MLS and we could very well win a championship in Phase 2, but Phase 3 puts us in the RSL/LA category - where we are favorites and considered disappointments if we don't make it to at least the finals

prizby
05-30-2014, 08:53 AM
knock Nelsen all you want, but if he has one thing going for him, he has won the locker room...it is quite evident. When has the locker room ever been so positive; you can tell it from the tone, you can tell it from all the high fiving that goes on. That mental aspect goes a long way to the performance on the field

jabbronies
05-30-2014, 08:57 AM
I'd play him as the late trailer. He played as a mostly defensive midfielder at Hereenven but still managed to pot 18 goals, mostly from the top of the box. Keep in mind if they do it right, when he's forward the other DM is back and vice-versa.

I'd play it as
-------------Bendik-------------
Bloom--Hagglund/Henry--Caldwell--Morrow
-------Bradley---Orr--------------
--Gilberto---Osorio---Rey------
-----------Defoe----------------------

When the central midfielder, fulback and wide midfielder are advancing the ball, the fullback can either go wide (bloom wide with Gilberto at the top of the triangle and Bradley parallel to bloom) or switch inside and be the bottom of an inverted triangle with Bradley moving centrally and Gilberto wide. It's a good mixup for the cover because it pulls them between defensive zones.

If the ball goes centrally, Bradley would play the bottom of the triangle to Osorio and Gilberto and then move into the space of whomever advances the play.

While the ball is advancing, Orr drops back behind. If it goes up his flank, he takes up the supporting role and Bradley drops back.

This way, we have Bradley as the trailer two-thirds of the time, depending on the field the ball goes to, but we always have supporting movement and we always have a midfielder joining the attack. Defoe goes near post either side if someone goes wide, the wide mid on the weak side goes to the far post and Osorio goes to the spot. The trailing defensive mid picks up scraps. Oriel Rosell does this really well for KC.

Bradley likes to move forward.
As long as there is proper positional interchanges happening with him and Gilberto if he does push forward I don't mind this.

PopePouri
05-30-2014, 08:59 AM
Also, we're not leaking from set pieces goals like in previous seasons.

C.Ronaldo
05-30-2014, 09:08 AM
Salary cap
Distance
Weather
Travel only allowed on scheduled flights
Technical ability of the domestics

All different then any other league



true dat......ran into FC dallas at dallas airport on Sunday in the men bathroom. I deemed it inappropriate to talk to them while taking a wizz.

C.Ronaldo
05-30-2014, 09:10 AM
Bradley likes to move forward.
As long as there is proper positional interchanges happening with him and Gilberto if he does push forward I don't mind this.

agreed, time to take pressure of gilberto to bang one in. he moves the ball really well and runs his ass off. and he can score from distance (based on you tube)

play him behind defoe

David_Oliveira
05-30-2014, 09:44 AM
IMHO I think we have gotten better defensively. We are conceding less goals from set pieces and conceding less late in the game. IIRC, RN's plan was to improve from the back up. So far he is on the right track with his plan.

I don't always agree with his choices but he has a plan and is sticking to what he said

lobo
05-30-2014, 11:22 PM
To be fair, clearly I haven't lived in many cities in the world long enough to want to actively support their sports teams and take THAT much notice of the fans.

In my previous life as an Oxord United season ticket holder I supported the team from Championship level all the way to out of the English football league. And in that time they did lose some support, but the majority of fans stuck with the team. Now in Toronto, they lose 2 games in a row, and somebody decides to never watch the team again! Impatient in comparison? I'd say yes!

ok, but here on this board, you're not talking to those fairweather fans ... you're talkin to the core of supporters, and yet you still paint us all with the same brush, lump us all in the same square box. that's all i'm saying. just cut out the unfair generalizations about all of us, here. anybody who reads this board or a leafs forum will know there is no single definition of a 'toronto sports fan'. not a big deal, it just irritates me when people say things like that. i'm fairly certain if internet forums were around in your previous life, you would have read a fair amount of grumbling about oxford as they dropped right out of the football league, cause it's the interwebs ya know. btw, your oxford story sounds rather like the leafs' story here, no matter how bad they've been throughout the decades, the majority of fans stick with them.

ManUtd4ever
05-31-2014, 07:31 AM
Perhaps a simple shift to a 4-4-1-1 with Gilberto playing a more central role behind Defoe might help him get more comfortable.

Pookie
05-31-2014, 07:44 AM
Maybe they could let their $1.2M striker take a few of the free kicks on the edge of the box?

T-boy
05-31-2014, 08:37 AM
ok, but here on this board, you're not talking to those fairweather fans ... you're talkin to the core of supporters, and yet you still paint us all with the same brush, lump us all in the same square box. that's all i'm saying. just cut out the unfair generalizations about all of us, here. anybody who reads this board or a leafs forum will know there is no single definition of a 'toronto sports fan'. not a big deal, it just irritates me when people say things like that. i'm fairly certain if internet forums were around in your previous life, you would have read a fair amount of grumbling about oxford as they dropped right out of the football league, cause it's the interwebs ya know. btw, your oxford story sounds rather like the leafs' story here, no matter how bad they've been throughout the decades, the majority of fans stick with them.

My grandfather helped build the Oxford stadium, and my dad played for them, so I'd support Oxford even if they went bust, I'd still wear their shirt like a loser! :p

I'm talking about a lot of the "new" fans, even on the board here - you can see in their amount of posts (on the left), there seems to be a large majority of those (with around 20 to 40 posts) that are clearly new this season that are all saying how bad TFC is, bad football, almost to the level of trolling. The "bloody big deal" has definitely got some new support, and some are on this forum. It's those new people who generally seem to be sucky new supporters who want instant success no matter what!

trane
05-31-2014, 10:15 AM
See, this is where I defend Nelsen.
You say we have a great midfielder, but I look at those guys you have listed and most of them have barley been with the team this season.

Most of them have been injured at various times
A couple of them just joined the team
1 of them is gone for about 2 months

You can't setup a midfield where Bradley is the lynch pin and stick to it when he is gone.
There is no one who can replace him because every other player we have does not have the full compliment of skill that he has.

You've got Dero on there - but he can barley play 60 minutes/game So you can't build anything around him
Jackson may never come back - and Rey is proving to be very 1 dimensional so we are lacking on the wings

Orr is a utility guy - great utility guy - but we need to think bigger for starting 11

Not sure why you would drop Defoe behind Gilberto - We are getting results and Defoe is scoring - why risk the points just cos 1 guy can't score?I get the whole play to your players, but not play to 1 guy who hasn't proved himself.

Im not shitting on the players - but this is the reality of what we have.
The formation we are playing basically acts as a buffer to the major deficiencies we have around the pitch.
How can you be flexible when you have guys who are extremely limited in their talent making up a bulk of your midfield?

No one on TFC ever said this was it, this is the team that will take us to a championship. They have all been cautious and stated TFC is still a work in progress. We are still in phase 1 of 3 phases IMO

Phase 1 - Build a playoff team
Phase 2 - Build a contender
Phase 3 - Build a championship team

This is MLS and we could very well win a championship in Phase 2, but Phase 3 puts us in the RSL/LA category - where we are favorites and considered disappointments if we don't make it to at least the finals

Forget De Ro, he is just an option, not a main point. I rate Orr higher then you do, I think he has been excellent at Dm, and I rate Warner and the other mids higher. As for Gilberto ahead of Defoe, that is not because I what him to be the primary option, but so that he can create space and pass the ball to Defoe, who excels running into space and running onto balls. Defoe is clearly the focus of the attack, you want to put him in position to excel, he is best in space.

Clearly ones opion of Nelsen is largely based on your assessment of the talent, if you think we do not have better tallent then the record shows, that he has done a good job, but I believe that we do have better talent and he has not done the most with it. But again I do not think he has been horrible, just maybe not good enough, as overs have said (Exiled/Jloome) his tactics are very basic, and maybe Exiled is right, it may be simply long, route one which just looks better at times, because of the talent of our key players.

jloome, the formation would certaily work, Bradely would be a bit of the schwinstager, or however you spell his name.

jloome
05-31-2014, 10:46 AM
Forget De Ro, he is just an option, not a main point. I rate Orr higher then you do, I think he has been excellent at Dm, and I rate Warner and the other mids higher. As for Gilberto ahead of Defoe, that is not because I what him to be the primary option, but so that he can create space and pass the ball to Defoe, who excels running into space and running onto balls. Defoe is clearly the focus of the attack, you want to put him in position to excel, he is best in space.

Clearly ones opion of Nelsen is largely based on your assessment of the talent, if you think we do not have better tallent then the record shows, that he has done a good job, but I believe that we do have better talent and he has not done the most with it. But again I do not think he has been horrible, just maybe not good enough, as overs have said (Exiled/Jloome) his tactics are very basic, and maybe Exiled is right, it may be simply long, route one which just looks better at times, because of the talent of our key players.

jloome, the formation would certaily work, Bradely would be a bit of the schwinstager, or however you spell his name.

It wouldn't be hard for them to adjust as he's obviously been working them into a 4132, as we saw against NY. It would get away from Gilberto playing like a striker, and let him use his technique to beat guys and open up shooting space. And it would also reduce the challenge posed by Rey's relative lack of speed by cutting down on our wide play and having him go inside more often. We all also know Osorio plays better centrally (and in Seattle showed he can play box-to-box when forced).

To me it's worth a try. It's also easier to pick up than it looks because the passing lanes you're trying to create are all pretty short. No one's trying to beat people with long through balls; it's most about moving the defense out of position to open up shooting opportunities, then having four guys in and around the box to pick up the junk.

EDIT: Also suits the strengths of our fulbacks, providing width, and Jackson becomes a utility player who can potentially start at FB, DM and outside mid.

And if they run it right, they can use it to counter, too, by staggering the field and making it very hard for opponents to run the offside trap.

ANOTHER THOUGHT: Tactically, it's very easy to use it to adjust to individual teams, as each player has at least two options for prescribed movement to create the next triangle. If players know before a game starts where the other team's weak points are, it can be used to prescribe movement that pressures those individual positions.

lobo
05-31-2014, 11:19 AM
My grandfather helped build the Oxford stadium, and my dad played for them, so I'd support Oxford even if they went bust, I'd still wear their shirt like a loser! :p

I'm talking about a lot of the "new" fans, even on the board here - you can see in their amount of posts (on the left), there seems to be a large majority of those (with around 20 to 40 posts) that are clearly new this season that are all saying how bad TFC is, bad football, almost to the level of trolling. The "bloody big deal" has definitely got some new support, and some are on this forum. It's those new people who generally seem to be sucky new supporters who want instant success no matter what!

i understand your target, i'm just suggesting you focus your aim rather than bluntly hammering all toronto sports fans.

btw, that is a great family history with the oxford club. of course you should always embrace that.

jabbronies
05-31-2014, 11:27 AM
Forget De Ro, he is just an option, not a main point. I rate Orr higher then you do, I think he has been excellent at Dm, and I rate Warner and the other mids higher. As for Gilberto ahead of Defoe, that is not because I what him to be the primary option, but so that he can create space and pass the ball to Defoe, who excels running into space and running onto balls. Defoe is clearly the focus of the attack, you want to put him in position to excel, he is best in space.

Clearly ones opion of Nelsen is largely based on your assessment of the talent, if you think we do not have better tallent then the record shows, that he has done a good job, but I believe that we do have better talent and he has not done the most with it. But again I do not think he has been horrible, just maybe not good enough, as overs have said (Exiled/Jloome) his tactics are very basic, and maybe Exiled is right, it may be simply long, route one which just looks better at times, because of the talent of our key players.

jloome, the formation would certaily work, Bradely would be a bit of the schwinstager, or however you spell his name.

I do rate Orr pretty highly. I just don't see him being a midfield starter - there are better MLS grade options out there.
Defensive starter - sure. I think he'd do well.

As for Gilberto - I'm fine with him being a target striker. but then he needs to start playing like one. just watching what he does on the pitch - his natural tendencies are not one of a target striker. Most target strikers feel comfortable with their back to goal - he seems to prefer showing for a through ball - which is more of an all out forward moving striker. He's a big man playing a small mans game.

Nelsen doesn't seem like the guy to force someone to play a certain style they are not comfortable with. I suspect most of his play isn't due to formation, but mostly due to himself.

I see Nelsen's 4-4-2 + variations start the game, but it is rarely played properly - and it's due to a lack of basics being executed by a majority of the players.

jabbronies
05-31-2014, 11:29 AM
Maybe they could let their $1.2M striker take a few of the free kicks on the edge of the box?

Seriously!
If this guy can kick, why not give him a few cracks at these - we've had more then enough this season.

mcolvy
05-31-2014, 12:08 PM
It is really difficult to look good as a manager if your midfield is crap.

Moyes can tell you all that.

Laba has not been replaced.
Rey has proven, IMHO, to be ineffectual.
Jackson is great defensively, but near useless going forward.
Osorio is injured and not ready yet.
DeRo isn't a side midfielder anymore.

We'll see about Warner and Lovitz.

When /if we get a decent partner for Bradley and a couple of decent side midfielders, we'll know if Nelsen is any good.


How is Moyes relevant? He had no clue how to run a system that dominated another team. Nelsen is similar in that way.

Nelsen has strengths and weaknesses. I have said this many times before. He is the perfect guy to lead the team, but not direct them. We need to keep him for his connections and attitude and bring in an x's and o's assistant coach for him. Someone that can add flair, penetration and possession to our offensive game.

From my understanding the players all love the guy, but at the same time I think everyone knows offensively we are a very very confused side.