Argos out of BMO?

[Canary10]

This is what Cathal Kelly is reporting. Hurrahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[flamehawk]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/argos-on-the-outs-in-bmo-field-dispute-between-mlse-and-federal-government/article18862832/#dashboard/follows/

Woohoo, I am over the moon. With the feds dithering on subsidizing expansion plans, MLSE has decided to go ahead without accommodating Argos. My only wish would be to make the north stand permanent so that we never have this prospect again.

[Canary10]

Link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/argos-on-the-outs-in-bmo-field-dispute-between-mlse-and-federal-government/article18862832/#dashboard/follows/

[Canary10]

I particularly like this:

"New architectural plans have been drawn. A $120-million reno becomes a $100-million one. The arena will be rebuilt to its current dimensions, meaning there will be no north-south extension and no room for football end zones. Ground will be broken in September."

[Phil]

I heard about this last week and couldn't believe it. Seeing the details now....I am very happy.

[Walms]

Amazing news! great way to kick off my day, Thanks Canary

[eustacchio]

This is the best thing I've heard in a while.

[mowe]

YESSSS THIS IS AMAZING NEWS!!!! We get a upgraded stadium all to ourselves!!

I guess TL was telling the truth when he said the Argos were forced on him.

But really shitty news for the Argos. $20 million is not a lot money in the grand scheme of things, and that would've gotten the Argos a permanent home. BMO was really the perfect solution for them. No idea what they'll do now. Good luck finding public money for a new stadium.

[Fort York Redcoat]

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130329214327/degrassi/images/9/97/Maury-you-are-not-the-father-o.gif


NOT the Argos House!!!!

http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/207867iBD482E8F522BB2E6/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

and finally...

http://blog.chron.com/tubular/files/2013/06/you-get-the-hell-out.gif

[jabbronies]

I particularly like this:

"New architectural plans have been drawn. A $120-million reno becomes a $100-million one. The arena will be rebuilt to its current dimensions, meaning there will be no north-south extension and no room for football end zones. Ground will be broken in September."

I believe they were due to release the next phase of design to the public in June.

[Canary10]

I believe they were due to release the next phase of design to the public in June.

It's easy to think this showing up in the paper is to put pressure on the feds. Which it may be, but the good thing is they are under a time crunch.

[Milanista]

come on guys this is just to put pressure on the government. They will get their money eventually and argos will be at BMO field...read the last part it says it can be expanded for football later if needed

[Phil]

I got word of this last week. Always worried that its a tactic, but news went through MLSE that its dead. Its the June 12th election that is the last hurdle.

[Fort York Redcoat]

come on guys this is just to put pressure on the government. They will get their money eventually and argos will be at BMO field...read the last part it says it can be expanded for football later if needed

http://eune.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=74052&d=1391438218

[ensco]

What a shock.

The previous thread on this boiled down to a bunch of people saying the government will never do this, and a bunch of other people saying that it was a layup, a done deal. At least we were having the right argument.

Would like to hear from one of those who know municipal politics who said the feds and province could quietly do this out of the Pan Am games funding, or whatever that was.

[Joe Kool]

Wow. So they have to go back to the city for another vote now. They need to hope the provincial elections go their way on June 12. They are assuming all will go their way but still not a done deal.

I want to see the revised stadium plans now. I wonder if they will have another stadium expansion session like last time. It sucks to have any temporary seating for the regulars in the North. I am assuming the roof will remain the same in terms of looks since they said they had to make it simple due to cost. I could see that they would try to cut a little more cost now possibly.

[InDa_110]

I got word of this last week. Always worried that its a tactic, but news went through MLSE that its dead. Its the June 12th election that is the last hurdle.


What do you mean by this?

Sorry, if I'm a little out of the loop and please excuse my ignorance on this, but what election result will be the last hurdle?

Will one party stop the deal as oppossed to others?

Are there any other parties who have stated they will not see through on the loan?

[Canary10]

What do you mean by this?

Sorry, if I'm a little out of the loop and please excuse my ignorance on this, but what election result will be the last hurdle?

Will one party stop the deal as oppossed to others?

Liberals have already committed to it. I haven't heard what the other two are saying. Anyone?

[Milanista]

what a shocker, liberals giving out money...I'm a hardcore conservative but in this case they should give the money to MLSE, in the end they are going to save the Argos


Liberals have already committed to it. I haven't heard what the other two are saying. Anyone?

[ryan]

come on guys this is just to put pressure on the government. They will get their money eventually and argos will be at BMO field...read the last part it says it can be expanded for football later if needed

This is how I see it too.

I fear this is ultimately worse news than we realize. Feds will balk. We'll start construction on a revised plan. Argos remain homeless. Feds will chip their 10M in. Then it'll happen. The Feds will not let the Argos leave or fold up shop.

End result being prolonged construction, not the best design because it wasn't all done at once with all in mind.

I'm cautious about this news. As the article said, it's dead now but can be revived easily.

[Canary10]

what a shocker, liberals giving out money...I'm a hardcore conservative but in this case they should give the money to MLSE, in the end they are going to save the Argos

At least they aren't building million dollar gazebos with it! (Debate for a different forum).

[Canary10]

This is how I see it too.

I fear this is ultimately worse news than we realize. Feds will balk. We'll start construction on a revised plan. Argos remain homeless. Feds will chip their 10M in. Then it'll happen. The Feds will not let the Argos leave or fold up shop.

End result being prolonged construction, not the best design because it wasn't all done at once with all in mind.

I'm cautious about this news.

They have an end date on construction because of the Pan-AM games, they need the plans finalized now for construction to start in September. Unless there are contingencies for a BMO 3.0, I'm not sure there is time left for the feds to come back to the table.

[mowe]

They have an end date on construction because of the Pan-AM games, they need the plans finalized now for construction to start in September. Unless there are contingencies for a BMO 3.0, I'm not sure there is time left for the feds to come back to the table.

This will be revisited around 2017 when the Argos' lease ends. I doubt they'll be able to build a brand new stadium in the GTA, so BMO will still be the most convenient option for them.

[ensco]

My wildass theory is that what is coming is much bigger, ie a new building, maybe at Ontario Place, that is purpose built with the potential to expand to NFL size.

[ryan]

They have an end date on construction because of the Pan-AM games, they need the plans finalized now for construction to start in September. Unless there are contingencies for a BMO 3.0, I'm not sure there is time left for the feds to come back to the table.

Argos have until 2017 season is over, so while there's a need to start now for the Pan Am games, this issue remains active after. Unless I misread, I'm under the impression there remains an option to use 10M and blow up the North End to accommodate, post upcoming renovation.

[Carts]

http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/mls/story/?id=453230

By David Naylor

The notion of BMO Field as future home of the Toronto Argonauts has been shelved as Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment prepares to invest in refurbishing the facility in times for next summer’s Pan-Am Games without a retrofit for Canadian football.

In April, Toronto city council approved a plan to invest $10 million in a $120 million expansion, contingent on the provincial and federal governments kicking in $10 million each as well. That plan included expanding the stadium to accommodate CFL football, with the Argos hoping to move in as soon as next season.

That stadium deal was put together at the same time that Argo owner David Braley was negotiating to sell the Argos to either MLSE or its largest, individual shareholder, Larry Tanenbaum.

However, with the provincial and federal governments yet to sign onto the deal, and time running out, MLSE is now focused on upgrading and repairing the facility under its current configurations, with an emphasis on getting it ready for next summer’s Pan-Am Games when it will host the Rugby Sevens competition.

While the possibility of an Argo sale to Tanenbaum or MLSE is not dead, according to a source, it has gone from being a priority to something that would depend another phase of stadium expansion being approved.

The Argos have been asked to vacate the Rogers Centre, their home since 1989 after the 2017 season so that the Toronto Blue Jays may consider installing natural grass into the facility.

MLSE will take a plan to city council next month to spend $80 million upgrading amenities in the stadium, asking for permission to spend the $10 million of city dollars that was granted for the larger project in April.

[Canary10]

My wildass theory is that what is coming is much bigger, ie a new building, maybe at Ontario Place, that is purpose built with the potential to expand to NFL size.

Could also potentially see the eastern portlands.

[jabbronies]

My wildass theory is that what is coming is much bigger, ie a new building, maybe at Ontario Place, that is purpose built with the potential to expand to NFL size.

Maybe in the portlands?

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'm cautious about this news. As the article said, it's dead now but can be revived easily.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140110150739/dumbledoresarmyroleplay/images/4/44/Steve-carrell-nooo.gif

I don't care if the stadium looks like Lamport for a year as long as we have great grass for the players.

[shwade]

Just move the Argos to Mississauga or something.
Anything to keep them out of BMO.

[Fort York Redcoat]

My wildass theory is that what is coming is much bigger, ie a new building, maybe at Ontario Place, that is purpose built with the potential to expand to NFL size.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NDE3q-vVrDo/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAABk/0RMoxZe-6uM/photo.jpg


Toronto Live? Instead of an angel we'd have a hog? a smokestack?

[ryan]

Crackpipe.

[Phil]

What do you mean by this?

Sorry, if I'm a little out of the loop and please excuse my ignorance on this, but what election result will be the last hurdle?

Will one party stop the deal as oppossed to others?

Are there any other parties who have stated they will not see through on the loan?

Well, the indication is that the deal is done with the Liberals and there is a contingency plan on the table with the city that needs approval. The June 12 election has the bigger role. The city approval would probably go through with Kelly at the helm.

[Carts]

An "LA Live" type of development at Ontario Place would be sweet.

Stadium, Casino, Restaurants.... And of course hookers & crack dealers :)

[Red Rat]

http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/mls/story/?id=453230

By David Naylor

The notion of BMO Field as future home of the Toronto Argonauts has been shelved as Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment prepares to invest in refurbishing the facility in times for next summer’s Pan-Am Games without a retrofit for Canadian football.

In April, Toronto city council approved a plan to invest $10 million in a $120 million expansion, contingent on the provincial and federal governments kicking in $10 million each as well. That plan included expanding the stadium to accommodate CFL football, with the Argos hoping to move in as soon as next season.

That stadium deal was put together at the same time that Argo owner David Braley was negotiating to sell the Argos to either MLSE or its largest, individual shareholder, Larry Tanenbaum.

However, with the provincial and federal governments yet to sign onto the deal, and time running out, MLSE is now focused on upgrading and repairing the facility under its current configurations, with an emphasis on getting it ready for next summer’s Pan-Am Games when it will host the Rugby Sevens competition.

While the possibility of an Argo sale to Tanenbaum or MLSE is not dead, according to a source, it has gone from being a priority to something that would depend another phase of stadium expansion being approved.

The Argos have been asked to vacate the Rogers Centre, their home since 1989 after the 2017 season so that the Toronto Blue Jays may consider installing natural grass into the facility.

MLSE will take a plan to city council next month to spend $80 million upgrading amenities in the stadium, asking for permission to spend the $10 million of city dollars that was granted for the larger project in April.

This sounds the same but different, shelved is the right word.

[Red4ever]

I'll be relaying thanks to the Prime Minister later today.

[Red CB Toronto]

I would wait to see what happens, the powers brokers at work, I still believe at the end of the day it will happen with the Argos at BMO.

[Red CB Toronto]

How come MLSE is killing this deal over $10 million, that is chump change to them, at the end of the day I believe that $10 will come from somewhere.

[gdg_9]

The thing that would make the most sense for the Argos would be to partner with York, similar to what the Alouettes do with McGill at Percival Molson Stadium in Montreal.

Not only would it finally give them a permanent home properly suited for CFL, but with the right strategic partnerships and marketing with York, it could help give them a built-in student fanbase and hopefully increase their abysmal attendance numbers (second worst in the CFL last year. Only the Ti-Cats were worse, and they played out of a small temporary stadium in Guelph while theirs was being re-built).

[Suds]

Nothing is done until it is done.

Still plenty of time for Argos to be back on the table. Lot's can change with the ongoing elections in Toronto and Ontario with respect to promised grants and loans.

[Phil]

Lets not forget the Argos history of pulling out of these kinds of deals...

Just trying to persever that sunshine :D

[Canary10]

There is a very real time crunch too. It's pretty tough to start reno'ing your house then decide half way through you want an added bathroom.

[MartinUtd]

My wildass theory is that what is coming is much bigger, ie a new building, maybe at Ontario Place, that is purpose built with the potential to expand to NFL size.

I was thinking the same thing, not sure about location but I could see some sort of CFL/NFL/World Cup 2026 bid being combined in a mega stadium. Argos could use it much like the Sounders use Century Link, NFL would sell out every seat and the centre piece of the world cup bid would be bought and paid for.

[glaze]

I'll believe it when the concrete is poured.
I still feel there is too much politics at stake. It is a tough situation for the Feds. In fact, I applaud their approach. Too many cities have stadium projects. I realize Hamilton got funds thanks to the Pam Am games, but what about winnipeg, regina, ottawa and quebec city (hockey arena). The Feds can't give money to everyone. Both Ottawa and Montreal have had CFL teams fold, but I think losing Toronto would be really bad for the league. I don't know if you want to be the government that allowed the Argos and the CFL to fail.
I don't want the Argos at BMO Field. I was happy to read that article, but feel that the window is still open for this to change. Renovations aren't starting until September, and it seems that the plan to keep the north end open leaves room for a last minute change.
I am always fascinated by Canada's lack of wealthy people willing to put money into pro sports. The LA Clippers are rumoured to sell for over 2 billion. Meanwhile the Argos would likely be given to whoever promises to find them a new home.
How can the country's largest city not find an owner for its football team?

[barticusz]

So for now the Argo's are out. Instead of 120M, 100M will be spent on BMO Field. With the loss of the need to have movable stands, I wonder how much money is saved.

My thinking is that, that cost would have been quite high, so there is a possibility we could see a slightly improved design, maybe with a better roof? Can't wait to see some updated plans.

[Kaz]

I've grown sceptical.. I want to see the new plans.

I'm a little surprised.. but at the same time not... it could have been funnelled through the Pan-am Budget, but it TL was too open I supposed meaning the Feds didn't think they could do it, without pissing off their base.

I'm actually a little disappointed in it, because as much as I don't want the Argo's at BMO, the plan was technically neat and my geeky side wanted to see it.

I'm also really happy with this.

The info in conflicting..

So is it 80 million from MLSE, 10 million from the Province, and 10 million from the City? With a backup of 5-10 extra from the city if some how Hudak get in power.

The new "plans" will be interesting.. the idea of the North side being left open with less then permanent seats is concerning as to what that means. Is Grassmaster still going in? Will BMO get a fungicide exception so a winter tarp can go on as part of this?

the TSN article annoys me because the Argo's keep saying... "well in the beginning we were going to play there" But the Argo's didn't want to.. the Argo's kept playing games.. the Argo's are the ones that kept the Argo's out of BMO. They need to grow up.. own up to their issues... and stop asking for a free ride in the city.

[Canary10]

I hope we stick with the hybrid grass....

[Beach_Red]

I was thinking the same thing, not sure about location but I could see some sort of CFL/NFL/World Cup 2026 bid being combined in a mega stadium. Argos could use it much like the Sounders use Century Link, NFL would sell out every seat and the centre piece of the world cup bid would be bought and paid for.

But what this shows is how difficult it will be to get three levels of government to agree on anything.

[ensco]

The Argos have always been the MacGuffin.

That supposed 2026 WC bid is about to get a lot more airplay now.

The whole thing just feels like an elaborate misdirection play from the Ultimate Entertainer

Bunny will probably pop out of the hat in a couple of months.

[Ultra & Proud]

I hope we stick with the hybrid grass....
After the look of the pitch after this balls winter and earlier and earlier first kicks I think this may have to be the way going forward.

[RealG-TFC]

The thing that would make the most sense for the Argos would be to partner with York, similar to what the Alouettes do with McGill at Percival Molson Stadium in Montreal.

Not only would it finally give them a permanent home properly suited for CFL, but with the right strategic partnerships and marketing with York, it could help give them a built-in student fanbase and hopefully increase their abysmal attendance numbers (second worst in the CFL last year. Only the Ti-Cats were worse, and they played out of a small temporary stadium in Guelph while theirs was being re-built).

It really makes perfect sense. The tennis stadium is right there and they are building a new stadium for the panams. There's two highways servicing York the subway expansion. Is due to open in 2016. Last time I was there I noticed in a poster that the university was going to sell/develop the surrounding land as well.

[reggie]

TL did say on tsn a month ago that there will be some big news on the whole bmo thing.

[reggie]

It really makes perfect sense. The tennis stadium is right there and they are building a new stadium for the panams. There's two highways servicing York the subway expansion. Is due to open in 2016. Last time I was there I noticed in a poster that the university was going to sell/develop the surrounding land as well.

did the argos say that they are look at York for ther new practice ground?

[Fort York Redcoat]

How come MLSE is killing this deal over $10 million, that is chump change to them

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7DJLJS1GneA/Ul7U5uJ7V3I/AAAAAAAADbo/nkvlZSOY8ug/s1600/Not_even_sorry.gif

[Phil]

I know for a fact the plans have not been drawn up yet.

[TFC07]

No surprises here. Feds already came out not supporting the project so I don't see why anyone who have been following this issue is surprised.

That being said, Argos can still get their own stadium if they are willing to move outside of downtown core. York is going to be Argos' training facility this year, so they might as well work with university to build football stadium.

[TFC07]

did the argos say that they are look at York for ther new practice ground?

Yes, this year they will have their training camp at York.

[TFC07]

How come MLSE is killing this deal over $10 million, that is chump change to them, at the end of the day I believe that $10 will come from somewhere.

It's not their stadium so why should they pay for it? How about Argos step up and pay that $10 million to move in? They can't get a free ride all the time.

[Villa TFC]

I definitely see this as a 'shelving' rather than a 'killing.' There'll be a phase 1 redevelopment of BMO for the Pan Am games which won't include the Argos. However, the phase 1 design will be very careful not to do anything that makes it more difficult or impossible for the Argos to move in later as part of a phase 2 redevelopment. Until the Argos get their own stadium (will never happen) or share with York etc, there'll always be the threat of them churning up our turf and vandalising the pitch with lines.

[TFC07]

I definitely see this as a 'shelving' rather than a 'killing.' There'll be a phase 1 redevelopment of BMO for the Pan Am games which won't include the Argos. However, the phase 1 design will be very careful not to do anything that makes it more difficult or impossible for the Argos to move in later as part of a phase 2 redevelopment. Until the Argos get their own stadium (will never happen) or share with York etc, there'll always be the threat of them churning up our turf and vandalising the pitch with lines.

Agreed. Argos can still come in 2016 if someone steps up to kick in extra money.

All this means for now, that Argos aren't coming next year.

But then again, we still have month left and maybe someone (either Feds or CFL) can come up with extra $10 million needed to bring Argos.

[Kaz]

No surprises here. Feds already came out not supporting the project so I don't see why anyone who have been following this issue is surprised.

That being said, Argos can still get their own stadium if they are willing to move outside of downtown core. York is going to be Argos' training facility this year, so they might as well work with university to build football stadium.
Why would York help them... they already pulled out of a deal with York.

At best they would have to try to find away to Upgrade the new Stadium at york to 20,000 from 5,000 (do able) and have to live with the Track around the Field.

[Initial B]

There is no way that the Harper Government will give $10M now. The MO of this government has always been to admit/show no weakness, never admit guilt, never say you were wrong. If they look like they cave to MLSE, then that will probably be the slippery slope to the Conservatives' losing re-election.

I'm still worried that someone, somewhere, will find the $10 million needed for the modification to take place. Maybe even Tannenbaum out of his own pocket. I'm scared that they'll start construction and be forced to modify it partway through and we end up with a frenkenstien monster of a stadium, pleasing no one.

[Kaz]

I know for a fact the plans have not been drawn up yet.

Phil where is the North End empty thing coming from in the Globe article? is that just speculation? Hope? future troll baiting to attack MLSE for shutting out the Argos? an attempt to influence before the plans are made?

[wzhxvy]

I do not believe for a second that the deal will be killed over $10M. It was either never going to happen for other reasons, or this is a pressure tactic.

Lot of ifs..if liberals win and if the city approves, and if this and that...

In my opinion the whole BMO upgrade is now at risk and there is an equal chance of it not happening as to the chance of the Argos not going to BMO.

[TFC07]

Why would York help them... they already pulled out of a deal with York.

At best they would have to try to find away to Upgrade the new Stadium to 20,000 from 5,000 (do able) and have to live with the Track around the Field.

York is going under huge development in the area.

Argos are going to be using York's facility this year for training. So I am assuming there have made up and moved on.

If Argos are serious, then they will contribute some money into football stadium.

I find it funny how we're blaming feds for doing right thing here. How about Argos or even CFL themselves pay that $10 million? If they can't afford to pay $10 million to "save" Argos, then maybe Argos don't deserve to play in Toronto. If you look around league, teams contribute some money into their stadiums. So why can't Argos do the same? Blame Argos ownership if BMO field renovation doesn't happen not government or MLSE.

[Fort York Redcoat]

In my opinion the whole BMO upgrade is now at risk and there is an equal chance of it not happening as to the chance of the Argos not going to BMO.

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6441019392/hA614DEAB/


I'm just so happy today.:party:

[Red4ever]

Is Pete able to respond without a meme?

http://www.radd.tv/images/blog/sad_bill_cosby.gif

[Strikers]

These events show me how weak the leadership in the CFL and Argos really are. The CFL should have stepped in long time ago to get the Argos a stadium to play in and a real owner.
Everyone is so concerned about what is going to happen to the CFL's biggest market but nothing is being done about it. All the other leagues lobby for their teams and get deals done, but not the CFL
and Argos. I love watching the CFL and you know what, the league is doing great without Toronto so if the Argos have to fold or move to Atlantic Canada so be it.

Like so many people I have talked too has said, the first ever Blue Jays home game killed the Argos.

[TFC07]

These events show me how weak the leadership in the CFL and Argos really are. The CFL should have stepped in long time ago to get the Argos a stadium to play in and a real owner.
Everyone is so concerned about what is going to happen to the CFL's biggest market but nothing is being done about it. All the other leagues lobby for their teams and get deals done, but not the CFL
and Argos. I love watching the CFL and you know what, the league is doing great without Toronto so if the Argos have to fold or move to Atlantic Canada so be it.

Like so many people I have talked too has said, the first ever Blue Jays home game killed the Argos.

Just imagine if Larry T and co end up buying Bills will do to Argos?

But then, Argos have no one but themselves to blame for state they're in. Blaming everyone but themselves is what really is holding them back. Even their fanbase have this mentality and blame everything on Rogers (and eventually MLSE if they move to BMO field) for their shortcoming. I personally believe Argos do have spot in Toronto market, but they have to invest a lot more into their team and be more responsible if they want to become successful in Toronto.

[Fort York Redcoat]

These events show me how weak the leadership in the CFL and Argos really are. The CFL should have stepped in long time ago to get the Argos a stadium to play in and a real owner.
Everyone is so concerned about what is going to happen to the CFL's biggest market but nothing is being done about it. All the other leagues lobby for their teams and get deals done, but not the CFL
and Argos. I love watching the CFL and you know what, the league is doing great without Toronto so if the Argos have to fold or move to Atlantic Canada so be it.

Like so many people I have talked too has said, the first ever Blue Jays home game killed the Argos.

I agree with you on the former but not the latter.

I don't want to see the Argos die, move or leave the GTA. Just not ma house.

And I said it without a memeg:D

[BuSaPuNk]

I agree with FYR this is a happy day and nothing can bring me down from this.

Argos have dug there own grave over a home for the entire history has a franchise. Backing out of deals, taking the cheap road in terms of Rogers Centre ect.

No matter how long they have been around and have a historical link to the CFL when will people give up on this franchise?

No owner, or potential owner has ever stepped up to try and get there own stadium. Or a deal for one. If there current and former owners and leauge there in don't put in the leg work to save there own, why should we care about losing a 100 year old franchise?

[Strikers]

Just imagine if Larry T and co end up buying Bills will do to Argos?




I believe Cathal is correct when he mentions that the NFL wants to co-exist with the CFL, if a NFL team ever comes to Toronto.


Until the Buffalo Bills situation is cleared up, there will always be a chance of Argos to BMO

[Nestease]

The argos aren't going ANYWHERE. MLSE (Bell, Rogers) is not going to let them go away, but they know they got everyone by the balls because NO ONE is going to buy the Argos AND build them a stadium, which they now need since the Blue Jays kicked them out so they can look into a grass install.

TSN (Bell) spends $30+ million a season for the CFL television rights. It ends after the 2018 season.

Last year was the second highest most watched season in CFL history. CFL averaged 758,000 viewers per game last season. Toronto FC season opener had 299,000 and 352,000 for the first home game with the debuts of Defoe and Bradley. 352,000 viewers was also the record for MLS on TSN. CFL regular hit 1 million viewers or just below last season.

CFL had a $4.4 million salary cap last season. The average salary is $83,018.

The naming rights on National Soccer Stadium (which were bought by MLSE) are set to expire right around when the expansion will be complete. If the Argos are tenants, the price for the rights will probably double.

TSN just announced TSN1, TSN2, TSN3, TSN4, and TSN5 for September.

Rogers and Bell are not going to let go of the Argos over $10 million. They got the stadium, The salary cap is low, and either Bell or Rogers is going to own the TV rights anyways because CBC isn't going to be bidding on sports anymore. They will make their money back the first year. They are simply breaking balls and trying to get the lowest price possible, which is why they haven't bought the argos yet. Once the funding is all set up, they'll squeeze the current owner knowing he has no options after the lease is over at the dome.

[TFC07]

I believe Cathal is correct when he mentions that the NFL wants to co-exist with the CFL, if a NFL team ever comes to Toronto.


Until the Buffalo Bills situation is cleared up, there will always be a chance of Argos to BMO

Argos will be viewed as junior/peewee football team by general public which will hurt them even more if NFL ever comes to Toronto. But at least, they will be alive playing somewhere in Toronto like Toronto Marlies.

[Milanista]

bingo! its just politics ppl


The argos aren't going ANYWHERE. MLSE (Bell, Rogers) is not going to let them go away, but they know they got everyone by the balls because NO ONE is going to buy the Argos AND build them a stadium, which they now need since the Blue Jays kicked them out so they can look into a grass install.

TSN (Bell) spends $30+ million a season for the CFL television rights. It ends after the 2018 season.

Last year was the second highest most watched season in CFL history. CFL averaged 758,000 viewers per game last season. Toronto FC season opener had 299,000 and 352,000 for the first home game with the debuts of Defoe and Bradley. 352,000 viewers was also the record for MLS on TSN. CFL regular hit 1 million viewers or just below last season.

CFL had a $4.4 million salary cap last season. The average salary is $83,018.

The naming rights on National Soccer Stadium (which were bought by MLSE) are set to expire right around when the expansion will be complete. If the Argos are tenants, the price for the rights will probably double.

TSN just announced TSN1, TSN2, TSN3, TSN4, and TSN5 for September.

Rogers and Bell are not going to let go of the Argos over $10 million. They got the stadium, The salary cap is low, and either Bell or Rogers is going to own the TV rights anyways because CBC isn't going to be bidding on sports anymore. They will make their money back the first year. They are simply breaking balls and trying to get the lowest price possible, which is why they haven't bought the argos yet. Once the funding is all set up, they'll squeeze the current owner knowing he has no options after the lease is over at the dome.

[TFC07]

The argos aren't going ANYWHERE. MLSE (Bell, Rogers) is not going to let them go away, but they know they got everyone by the balls because NO ONE is going to buy the Argos AND build them a stadium, which they now need since the Blue Jays kicked them out so they can look into a grass install.

TSN (Bell) spends $30+ million a season for the CFL television rights. It ends after the 2018 season.

Last year was the second highest most watched season in CFL history. CFL averaged 758,000 viewers per game last season. Toronto FC season opener had 299,000 and 352,000 for the first home game with the debuts of Defoe and Bradley. 352,000 viewers was also the record for MLS on TSN. CFL regular hit 1 million viewers or just below last season.

CFL had a $4.4 million salary cap last season. The average salary is $83,018.

The naming rights on National Soccer Stadium (which were bought by MLSE) are set to expire right around when the expansion will be complete. If the Argos are tenants, the price for the rights will probably double.

TSN just announced TSN1, TSN2, TSN3, TSN4, and TSN5 for September.

Rogers and Bell are not going to let go of the Argos over $10 million. They got the stadium, The salary cap is low, and either Bell or Rogers is going to own the TV rights anyways because CBC isn't going to be bidding on sports anymore. They will make their money back the first year. They are simply breaking balls and trying to get the lowest price possible, which is why they haven't bought the argos yet. Once the funding is all set up, they'll squeeze the current owner knowing he has no options after the lease is over at the dome.

Argos are losing money despite their TV numbers and they have lowest SSH base. Really motive for MLSE (at least Larry T) buying Argos is to protect NFL interest (anti-trust laws) if they end up buying Bills and move them to Toronto.

[Red4ever]

It's a good news day, if only for today only. But I will take it.

cal

[Strikers]

Last year was the second highest most watched season in CFL history. CFL averaged 758,000 viewers per game last season. Toronto FC season opener had 299,000 and 352,000 for the first home game with the debuts of Defoe and Bradley. 352,000 viewers was also the record for MLS on TSN. CFL regular hit 1 million viewers or just below last season.







Like I mentioned in my first post the CFL is doing well everywhere except Toronto. Those numbers would be close to the same if the Argos were in another city.

[Phil]

Phil where is the North End empty thing coming from in the Globe article? is that just speculation? Hope? future troll baiting to attack MLSE for shutting out the Argos? an attempt to influence before the plans are made?

Well, let me correct that - MLSE havent pushed any formal layout or architecual plans out to staff yet. Its still in the concept phase, I am sure a couple options are drafted pending projected developments.

[dupont]

Wasn't it Cathal Kelly that was being fed all those inside scoop articles at the start of the season? Tim L uses him to leak beneficial stuff so that seems like it might be the case here. Leak this info to try to pressure the government to put the money and get the Argos in.

[Beach_Red]

Argos will be viewed as junior/peewee football team by general public which will hurt them even more if NFL ever comes to Toronto. But at least, they will be alive playing somewhere in Toronto like Toronto Marlies.

It's a separate market. The Argos are already viewed that way by everyone who will be buying a ticket to an NFL team in Toronto and everyone who watches the NFL on TV in Toronto now.

The stadium attendance at 8 home games is barely a blip on TV ratings.

The Argos in any NFL discussion is a distraction (and to involve government money). The only issue in the NFL coming to Toronto is an owner putting up the money. The NFL will hand-pick an owner just like the NBA will hand-pick the new Clippers owner.

[Nestease]

Like I mentioned in my first post the CFL is doing well everywhere except Toronto. Those numbers would be close to the same if the Argos were in another city.

The Argos are currently leasing a cavern of a stadium.

MLSE would see the profit share from the TV rights go BACK into their pockets.

MLSE would use the Argos to get a better price on the stadium naming rights on the National Soccer Stadium.

2 of the top 6 highest rated games involved Toronto (Toronto @ Saskatchewan on Sept. 14 - 1.041 million)(Toronto @ Hamilton on Oct. 14 - 956,000)

[Villa TFC]

I don't want to see the Argos die, move or leave the GTA. Just not ma house.

I have never been to a CFL or Argos game, never even watched one on television - except the last 5 minutes of a Grey Cup Final which I think took about two days to complete - but I really don't want to see them fold either. The CFL is a part of Canadian history, culture and tradition and in an age when everything gets homogenized and globalised into uniformity, it's nice to have something that's genuine Canadian and old!

That said, I do find it rather ridiculous that the city, the province, the country and MLSE are all being asked to pitch money into this, but not the CFL or the Argos themselves. It should be the Argos that I putting down the first dollars and the Argos that are trying to get everyone else on board.

[moralis]

Quote from Joe Oliver - Finance Minister:

chris rands ‏@chrisrands (https://twitter.com/chrisrands) 2m (https://twitter.com/chrisrands/status/471347869044453376) #tfc (https://twitter.com/hashtag/tfc?src=hash) #hw (https://twitter.com/hashtag/hw?src=hash) finance minister and min for the gta joe oliver just now "we don't extend money to professional sports stadiums" re bmo field

https://twitter.com/chrisrands/status/471347869044453376

https://twitter.com/chrisrands

[Nestease]

Argos are losing money despite their TV numbers and they have lowest SSH base. Really motive for MLSE (at least Larry T) buying Argos is to protect NFL interest (anti-trust laws) if they end up buying Bills and move them to Toronto.

Motive is Bell seeing an immediate partial refund on their TV Rights deal, which they currently pay somewhere in between $30-40 million per season. That means millions back into their pocket that was already gone.

Motive is having negotiating a new stadium rights deal in 2016 with the Argos on board. Either that or you slap the Bell or Rogers logo on the stadium and now have a tenant you own who brings in 2x-4x the amount of ratings.

Argos would sell out BMO field for every single CFL game. Montreal had their problems in Olympic Stadium too until they moved.

[Fort York Redcoat]

MLSE would use the Argos to get a better price on the stadium naming rights on the National Soccer Stadium.

If you can't see a problem here then I guess our priorities are just opposite.

[TFC07]

Motive is Bell seeing an immediate partial refund on their TV Rights deal, which they currently pay somewhere in between $30-40 million per season. That means millions back into their pocket that was already gone.

Motive is having negotiating a new stadium rights deal in 2016 with the Argos on board. Either that or you slap the Bell or Rogers logo on the stadium and now have a tenant you own who brings in 2x-4x the amount of ratings.

Argos would sell out BMO field for every single CFL game. Montreal had their problems in Olympic Stadium too until they moved.

Maybe so, but Bills is the MAIN reason why all this is happening. It has been reported multiple times that purpose of buying Agros has more to do with NFL than anything else. Toronto NFL team brings way more money than any TV or sponsor deal that Argos will bring to MLSE/Larry T.

We all know for fact that Argos moving to BMO field was conditional made by the City of Toronto. $30 million from government to rebuild BMO field is for Argos not for soccer side which MLSE paying that with their own money.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Motive is Bell seeing an immediate partial refund on their TV Rights deal, which they currently pay somewhere in between $30-40 million per season. That means millions back into their pocket that was already gone.

Motive is having negotiating a new stadium rights deal in 2016 with the Argos on board. Either that or you slap the Bell or Rogers logo on the stadium and now have a tenant you own who brings in 2x-4x the amount of ratings.

Argos would sell out BMO field for every single CFL game. Montreal had their problems in Olympic Stadium too until they moved.

And is no longer a Soccer Specific Stadium

http://www.esreality.com/files/placeimages/2014/100734-nope3.gif

Nope. No thank you.

[Beach_Red]

Maybe so, but Bills is the MAIN reason why all this is happening. It has been reported multiple times that purpose of buying Agros has more to do with NFL than anything else. Toronto NFL team brings way more money than any TV or sponsor deal that Argos will bring to MLSE/Larry T.

We all know for fact that Argos moving to BMO field was conditional made by the City of Toronto. $30 million from government to rebuild BMO field is for Argos not for soccer side which MLSE paying that with their own money.

Are you talking about gate receipts? How much would that be? I don't disagree with you, I'm just trying to figure out who spends what and who makes what in an MLSE-purchased Bills-to-Toronto move. MLSE, owned by Bell, already own all the NFL TV rights in Canada. Would the NFL TV ratings go up much if the Bills were in Toronto rather than in Buffalo? If the ratings go up would the NFL charge Bell more for the rights?

[greatwhitenorf]

My theory about the Argos good ratings is that it's all some sort of Schadenfreude Syndrome - aging hinterland viewers who hate Toronto and want to see us lose.

If the Argos have such thin live support yet are pulling such great TV numbers, why not spend government millions more wisely> Just build a giant TV studio down in Portlands district. The live game can be shown outside on giant screens in a parking lot, like it's a massive drive in theatre that allows tailgating. The Argo faithful can roll up, get stuffed and smashed, watch a shoddy brand of football from the comfort of their pick-up truxx and Cadillac Escalades.

The studio facility can be used the next day to shoot some other TV event or movie. Creates a facility that provides everyday jobs for skilled workers. Legacy planning like never before.

[Villa TFC]

And is no longer a Soccer Specific Stadium



Number one on my list of MLS changes: 1) All stadiums must be SSS. No exceptions allowed.

Number two on my list of MLS changes: 2) All pitches must be natural grass or that-funky-new-high-tech-part-grass-part-super-fake-composite-stuff-that's-really-cool-and-doesn't-detract-from-the-game.

Other changes include Baldomera Toledo and a hypersonic cattle prod; neon-coloured boots; and long straggly pony-tails...

[Fort York Redcoat]

Can we put to bed the question if the Argos to BMO makes money sense? It does.

Does any Footy-first fan care?

[moralis]

Toronto Star reporter Daniel Dale talked with Tim Leiwke and he said Argos to BMO Field is "NOT" out of the equation:

Daniel Dale ‏@ddale8 (https://twitter.com/ddale8) 2h (https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/471313122297663488) MLSE CEO Tim Leiweke tells me that the Argos are *not* out of the BMO Field equation. 1/

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/471313122297663488

Daniel Dale ‏@ddale8 (https://twitter.com/ddale8) 2h (https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/471313319438327808)
Leiweke says the Argos part of the reno plan is just "on hold" until they can secure federal and provincial funding. 2/

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/471313319438327808

Daniel Dale ‏@ddale8 (https://twitter.com/ddale8) 3h (https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/471313478914170881)
MLSE wants to go ahead with putting in a roof and doing other renos as it talks to the other governments. Province on hold with election.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/471313478914170881

https://twitter.com/ddale8/

[TFC07]

Are you talking about gate receipts? How much would that be? I don't disagree with you, I'm just trying to figure out who spends what and who makes what in an MLSE-purchased Bills-to-Toronto move. MLSE, owned by Bell, already own all the NFL TV rights in Canada. Would the NFL TV ratings go up much if the Bills were in Toronto rather than in Buffalo? If the ratings go up would the NFL charge Bell more for the rights?

Gate revenue will be huge (think of Maple Leafs level) especially with license seat. Also corporate sponsorship will be huge for Toronto NFL compare to anything Argos will bring to the table especially if TV and online ratings are huge in the region.

Of course getting piece of American TV money is another reason why Toronto NFL team will be so valuable to Larry T and co.

[greatwhitenorf]

So, as others were saying, the Argo Accomodation Plans are merely shelved for now. Here's a glimpse of what's on the shelf.









http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_CU7GW8x1Tdc/SwNhT0jbstI/AAAAAAAAAAk/elBN5A9Z9Vg/s1600/rotten+food.jpg

[TFC07]

My theory about the Argos good ratings is that it's all some sort of Schadenfreude Syndrome - aging hinterland viewers who hate Toronto and want to see us lose.

If the Argos have such thin live support yet are pulling such great TV numbers, why not spend government millions more wisely> Just build a giant TV studio down in Portlands district. The live game can be shown outside on giant screens in a parking lot, like it's a massive drive in theatre that allows tailgating. The Argo faithful can roll up, get stuffed and smashed, watch a shoddy brand of football from the comfort of their pick-up truxx and Cadillac Escalades.

The studio facility can be used the next day to shoot some other TV event or movie. Creates a facility that provides everyday jobs for skilled workers. Legacy planning like never before.

Argos ratings tells me that most fans live too far away to go to downtown Toronto to watch Argos play every game. I believe their Southern Ontario TV ratings are great, but no one knows for sure how their ratings are in GTA especially in 416 region. I think if Argos move outside of downtown core, their attendance will improve dramatically. 905ers (both in and outside of GTA) will support Argos if they play closer to their neighborhoods.

[Beach_Red]

Gate revenue will be huge (think of Maple Leafs level) especially with license seat. Also corporate sponsorship will be huge for Toronto NFL compare to anything Argos will bring to the table especially if TV and online ratings are huge in the region.

Of course getting piece of American TV money is another reason why Toronto NFL team will be so valuable to Larry T and co.

Gate revenue from 8 games would be the same as from 42 hockey games? Well, it's true, they will want to charge a lot for the tickets. That was supposed to be the whole point in moving the from Buffalo, selling corporate boxes and higher-priced tickets. I guess they haven't been scared off that by the Bills-in-Toronto games.

How does the TV money work? Bell already buys all the NFL rights for Canada. As the owners of a Toronto team they would get their share (TV revenue-sharing is the main reason the NFL grew to be so successful in the US) of the money - but they would be both buyers and sellers. Would it be worth it to run one of the teams or to broadcast the entire league?

I guess I don't get it because I've worked for another Bell company, CTV, and in that case they do everything they can not to spend their own money creating content and prefer to just buy the rights to the American content. It just seems they are making a ton of money by being the exclusive carrier of the NFL in Canada and owning one of the 32 teams wouldn't add much to that.

Unless, of course, they got the government to give them a free stadium.

[TFC07]

Gate revenue from 8 games would be the same as from 42 hockey games? Well, it's true, they will want to charge a lot for the tickets. That was supposed to be the whole point in moving the from Buffalo, selling corporate boxes and higher-priced tickets. I guess they haven't been scared off that by the Bills-in-Toronto games.

How does the TV money work? Bell already buys all the NFL rights for Canada. As the owners of a Toronto team they would get their share (TV revenue-sharing is the main reason the NFL grew to be so successful in the US) of the money - but they would be both buyers and sellers. Would it be worth it to run one of the teams or to broadcast the entire league?

I guess I don't get it because I've worked for another Bell company, CTV, and in that case they do everything they can not to spend their own money creating content and prefer to just buy the rights to the American content. It just seems they are making a ton of money by being the exclusive carrier of the NFL in Canada and owning one of the 32 teams wouldn't add much to that.

Unless, of course, they got the government to give them a free stadium.

Depending stadium size, 60,000 (most likely more seats, but use 60,000 to be conservative) * 8 games and potential playoff game with average ticket price being $100 (again, being conservative here) can net close to 41 hockey game. Maybe not equal to Maple Leafs total ticket revenue, but it definitely destroy a lot of other NHL teams' get from their gates.

Bell has nothing to do with Toronto NFL team itself. Bell (being part of MLSE) only role here is to operate stadium where potential Toronto NFL team will play (this is based on rumour). Actually owners of Toronto NFL team will be Larry T, Edward Rogers and Bon Jovi.

So really, Bell isn't much of a player. Canadian TV rights might be another fight I could see Rogers outbidding Bell when NFL Canadian TV rights expire in the future which will increase NFL Canadian TV rights price (especially if there's Toronto team in NFL).

[Beach_Red]

Depending stadium size, 60,000 (most likely more seats, but use 60,000 to be conservative) * 8 games and potential playoff game with average ticket price being $100 (again, being conservative here) can net close to 41 hockey game. Maybe not equal to Maple Leafs total ticket revenue, but it definitely suppress a lot of NHL ticket revenue.

Bell has nothing to do with Toronto NFL team itself. Bell (being part of MLSE) only role here is to operate stadium where potential Toronto NFL team will play (this is based on rumour). Actually owners of Toronto NFL team will be Larry T, Edward Rogers and Bon Jovi.

So really, Bell isn't much of a player. Canadian TV rights might another fight I could see Rogers outbidding Bell when NFL Canadian TV rights expire in the future which will increase NFL Canadian TV rights price (especially if there's Toronto team in NFL).

So Rogers would have baseball, football and hockey? As if I didn't hate Rogers enough (sorry Billy).... ;)

[ensco]

Depending stadium size, 60,000 (most likely more seats, but use 60,000 to be conservative) * 8 games and potential playoff game with average ticket price being $100 (again, being conservative here) can net close to 41 hockey game. Maybe not equal to Maple Leafs total ticket revenue, but it definitely destroy a lot of other NHL teams' get from their gates.

Bell has nothing to do with Toronto NFL team itself. Bell (being part of MLSE) only role here is to operate stadium where potential Toronto NFL team will play (this is based on rumour). Actually owners of Toronto NFL team will be Larry T, Edward Rogers and Bon Jovi.

So really, Bell isn't much of a player. Canadian TV rights might be another fight I could see Rogers outbidding Bell when NFL Canadian TV rights expire in the future which will increase NFL Canadian TV rights price (especially if there's Toronto team in NFL).

This scenario doesn't work. Even if you buy the Edward Rogers part (I don't), I think the odds of George Cope going along with this are about a quadrillion to one. Bell's motive would be to stop this, not to facilitate it. It would have to happen around MLSE.

Leiweke's game has never been about the Argos, or $10M. He is after 50x that. This whole thing is a mirage designed to mask that.

I think Leiweke thinks this is something MLSE can do, and that the NFL would look away re the ownership problem. not much else would make sense.

Whether MLSE is really there for this NFL dream is strictly a function of how many hundreds of millions Leiweke can pry out of the various governments.

Coming up next: get ready to meet the World Cup 2026 Toronto bid team, folks.

[Kaz]

So this suggests that they are going to do very little to the North and South Stands and concentrate on the east stands, and improving the pitch and washrooms?


Toronto Star reporter Daniel Dale talked with Tim Leiwke and he said Argos to BMO Field is "NOT" out of the equation:

Daniel Dale ‏@ddale8 (https://twitter.com/ddale8) 2h (https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/471313122297663488) MLSE CEO Tim Leiweke tells me that the Argos are *not* out of the BMO Field equation. 1/

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/471313122297663488

Daniel Dale ‏@ddale8 (https://twitter.com/ddale8) 2h (https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/471313319438327808)
Leiweke says the Argos part of the reno plan is just "on hold" until they can secure federal and provincial funding. 2/

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/471313319438327808

Daniel Dale ‏@ddale8 (https://twitter.com/ddale8) 3h (https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/471313478914170881)
MLSE wants to go ahead with putting in a roof and doing other renos as it talks to the other governments. Province on hold with election.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/471313478914170881

https://twitter.com/ddale8/

[WestStandGeoff]

My theory about the Argos good ratings is that it's all some sort of Schadenfreude Syndrome - aging hinterland viewers who hate Toronto and want to see us lose.

If the Argos have such thin live support yet are pulling such great TV numbers, why not spend government millions more wisely> Just build a giant TV studio down in Portlands district. The live game can be shown outside on giant screens in a parking lot, like it's a massive drive in theatre that allows tailgating. The Argo faithful can roll up, get stuffed and smashed, watch a shoddy brand of football from the comfort of their pick-up truxx and Cadillac Escalades.

The studio facility can be used the next day to shoot some other TV event or movie. Creates a facility that provides everyday jobs for skilled workers. Legacy planning like never before.

Without seeing a breakdown in numbers, I doubt that the "great TV numbers" include a lot of GTA/southern Ontario viewers... CFL is a pretty big deal out west, particularly in the prairie provinces, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were providing the viewership - CFL fans, not necessarily Argos fans.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Coming up next: get ready to meet the World Cup 2026 Toronto bid team, folks.

Will they only tell truths and be fiscally responsible? I can't wait to find out.

[Richard]

Sounds like a political ploy to me. Not getting my hopes up.

[OgtheDim]

Read a story in the National Post this morning that the latest Federal infrastructure program is to be administered by the provinces.

If the Libs win here in Ontario in the June election, the Federal money is in.

[TFC07]

This scenario doesn't work. Even if you buy the Edward Rogers part (I don't), I think the odds of George Cope going along with this are about a quadrillion to one. Bell's motive would be to stop this, not to facilitate it. It would have to happen around MLSE.

Leiweke's game has never been about the Argos, or $10M. He is after 50x that. This whole thing is a mirage designed to mask that.

I think Leiweke thinks this is something MLSE can do, and that the NFL would look away re the ownership problem. not much else would make sense.

Whether MLSE is really there for this NFL dream is strictly a function of how many hundreds of millions Leiweke can pry out of the various governments.

Coming up next: get ready to meet the World Cup 2026 Toronto bid team, folks.

It has been confirm that there's Toronto group led by Bon Jovi that are planning to bid on Bills. Jerry Jones went out his way to confirm and approve Bon Jovi and Toronto group on bidding on Bills and move them to Toronto. Rogers family always been tied to purchase of Bills while Larry T and Tim L have been working in the background. However, there also rumours that Toronto group is having second thoughts of purchasing Bills now. Again, this all rumours and gossip, but there's definitely people in the city that are interested in bringing NFL to Toronto. This can't be deny at all.

MLSE (as an organization) role is stadium, not the team itself. But if Bell tries to stop it, then I can easily see other MLSE parties working outside of organization to get it done (too many people out there interested in Toronto NFL). Bell is really powerless, but I believe Bell wouldn't stop it if they can get nice ROI.

Yes, I believe World Cup bid is going to be play a huge part of new stadium (this is why we don't hear CSA anything about BMO field right now). I can see Toronto NFL group help CSA to get funds from Feds to build the stadium to host World Cup in 2026.

[Beach_Red]

It has been confirm that there's Toronto group led by Bon Jovi that are planning to bid on Bills. Jerry Jones went out his way to confirm and approve Bon Jovi and Toronto group on bidding on Bills and move them to Toronto. Rogers family always been tied to purchase of Bills while Larry T and Tim L have been working in the background. However, there also rumours that Toronto group is having second thoughts of purchasing Bills now. Again, this all rumours and gossip, but there's definitely people in the city that are interested in bringing NFL to Toronto. This can't be deny at all.

MLSE (as an organization) role is stadium, not the team itself. But if Bell tries to stop it, then I can easily see other MLSE parties working outside of organization to get it done (too many people out there interested in Toronto NFL). Bell is really powerless, but I believe Bell wouldn't stop it if they can get nice ROI.

Yes, I believe World Cup bid is going to be play a huge part of new stadium (this is why we don't hear CSA anything about BMO field right now). I can see Toronto NFL group help CSA to get funds from Feds to build the stadium to host World Cup in 2026.

Powerless? What makes you say that?

[ensco]

What was Bez doing in Lisbon anyway?

I wonder if a $500M stadium anchoring a huge event complex in the centre city can get us the actual World Cup final game....although I can't see how that wouldn't be in New York .... but then again, who the hell wants to be in the Meadowlands ..... hmmmmm

[ensco]

It has been confirm that there's Toronto group led by Bon Jovi that are planning to bid on Bills. Jerry Jones went out his way to confirm and approve Bon Jovi and Toronto group on bidding on Bills and move them to Toronto. Rogers family always been tied to purchase of Bills while Larry T and Tim L have been working in the background. However, there also rumours that Toronto group is having second thoughts of purchasing Bills now. Again, this all rumours and gossip, but there's definitely people in the city that are interested in bringing NFL to Toronto. This can't be deny at all.

MLSE (as an organization) role is stadium, not the team itself. But if Bell tries to stop it, then I can easily see other MLSE parties working outside of organization to get it done (too many people out there interested in Toronto NFL). Bell is really powerless, but I believe Bell wouldn't stop it if they can get nice ROI.

Yes, I believe World Cup bid is going to be play a huge part of new stadium (this is why we don't hear CSA anything about BMO field right now). I can see Toronto NFL group help CSA to get funds from Feds to build the stadium to host World Cup in 2026.

Cmon, be serious. Bell isn't just driven by ROI. They are battling Rogers head to head every day, they are not going to help them build or acquire new assets. If Rogers wants to do something with the NFL, unless they are willing to share it 50/50, that has to be outside MLSE. Same for anything relating to the CFL and Bell btw.

[TFC07]

Powerless? What makes you say that?

To stop Toronto NFL if they can't get a piece of pie from it. There's a Toronto group (not sure how many of them) led by Bon Jovi to bid on Bills. Bell isn't going to stop them if they want bring Bills to Toronto. Stadium is only role Bell has any say (based on rumour that MLSE will be the one operating new stadium) on this.

[jabbronies]

I believe Cathal is correct when he mentions that the NFL wants to co-exist with the CFL, if a NFL team ever comes to Toronto.


Until the Buffalo Bills situation is cleared up, there will always be a chance of Argos to BMO

I can see the promos now:

COME WATCH THE TORONTO {INSERT SHIT NAME HERE} THIS SUNDAY AFTERNOON!
and remember your ticket also gets you access to the CFL game to be played afterwards

[TFC07]

Cmon, be serious. Bell isn't just driven by ROI. They are battling Rogers head to head every day, they are not going to help them build or acquire new assets. If Rogers wants to do something with the NFL, unless they are willing to share it 50/50, that has to be outside MLSE. Same for anything relating to the CFL and Bell btw.

Bell can't take part of ownership due to NFL ownership rules, so I don't see how they can share "50/50". Like I said before, MLSE (which is Bell part of) role as an organization going to be operating stadium only (this stated last year once rumours of Argos moving to BMO field first came up) Nothing more or less. Everything else is done outside of MLSE.

[jabbronies]

What was Bez doing in Lisbon anyway?



He seems like a smart guy. I bet he sold it as a business research trip to learn how big sporting extravaganza's are put on properly.

[Milanista]

If Bell wants to stick it to Rogers for stealing hockey they HAVE to get an NFL team here...

[Beach_Red]

To stop Toronto NFL if they can't get a piece of pie from it. There's a Toronto group (not sure how many of them) led by Bon Jovi to bid on Bills. Bell isn't going to stop them if they want bring Bills to Toronto. Stadium is only role Bell has any say (based on rumour that MLSE will be the one operating new stadium) on this.

Oh, I see what you mean, powerless to stop it if someone else puts up the money. OK, that makes sense.

Well, we're in year thirty of NFL-to-Toronto rumours (there is even a Wikipedia page that collects them all) but this is the first rock-star rumour, so I like it.

[glaze]

where else will the Argos go?
Land is kinda at a premium in Toronto, and politicians and the media have never warmed to the idea of a team playing in the suburbs.
At some point the Argos are going to need a new home, and if this is literally over 10 million, a new stadium elsewhere will easily surpass that cost.
Unfortunately the team further loses credibility with this latest story. TFC has vocal ownership and a vocal supporters group that have been good at getting out their message.
The Argos throughout this have alternated between silence, and talking as if they deserve to be in BMO without putting in any of their own money.
I like Argos football, I have nothing against their fans, but from an ownership/management perspective the team is a joke.
Maybe it's because of Braley. Pinball is so beloved in this city he could probably save the team and the stadium in a day (over 10 million).

[ensco]

Bell can't take part of ownership due to NFL ownership rules, so I don't see how they can share "50/50". Like I said before, MLSE (which is Bell part of) role as an organization going to be operating stadium only (this stated last year once rumours of Argos moving to BMO field first came up) Nothing more or less. Everything else is done outside of MLSE.

You are very mistaken.

Bell isn't interested whatsoever in "operating stadiums" as an actual line of business, regardless of the ROI.

The stadium deals in MLSE protect existing content, so that has to be a sideline that they are in, but that's as far as it goes. If it's not required for the content, forget it.

[ensco]

where else will the Argos go?

The market will speak. Bell will step in, they have to in the end. Best guess: Bell and the league will keep the bleachers in at York, maybe add to it a bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_and_Parapan_Am_Athletics_Stadium

[TFC07]

You are very mistaken.

Bell isn't interested whatsoever in "operating stadiums", regardless of the ROI. The stadium deals in MLSE protect exist content, so that has to be there, but that's as far as it goes.

We'll see. But stadium will also have other uses where Bell can benefit from. Stadium wouldn't be strictly for NFL team alone.

[TFC07]

The market will speak. Bell will step in, they have to in the end. Best guess: Bell and the league will keep the bleachers in at York, maybe add to it a bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_and_Parapan_Am_Athletics_Stadium

Why doesn't Bell step in right now to save Argos? What are they waiting for? It's not like there's huge interest to own Argos as it is.

[OgtheDim]

The City won't create a stadium in the portlands. Downsview is the only Toronto option.

I would suggest a more likely site would be somewhere along the 407 or the 403.

[ensco]

The City won't create a stadium in the portlands. Downsview is the only Toronto option.

I would suggest a more likely site would be somewhere along the 407 or the 403.

Ontario Place.

That is a billion dollar asset they can't figure out what to do with.

But Tim Leiweke, Drake, and Bon Jovi know what to do with it.

I expect there would also be some massive convention center story as part of this, there always is. The next orlando or Las Vegas, yadda yadda yadda.

[Cas87]

The market will speak. Bell will step in, they have to in the end. Best guess: Bell and the league will keep the bleachers in at York, maybe add to it a bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_and_Parapan_Am_Athletics_Stadium


Agreed,

more than likely they will move up to the Pan Am stadium as it is cheaper afterwards with the stand being converted to permanent ones and the public transportation will be inserted as well

[ensco]

Agreed,

more than likely they will move up to the Pan Am stadium as it is cheaper afterwards with the stand being converted to permanent ones and the public transportation will be inserted as well

The BMO rebuild, for the Argos or anyone else, my God, we all missed it. It was never happening. He's not interested in that rinky-dink meccano set.

It was just a way to get everybody excited about solving a problem that doesn't exist.

Leiweke has got the city and province ready to spend money, did anyone think that was possible a year ago?! Now it's time to work the crack until the vault door busts loose!

We haven't been able to keep up, we're not thinking big enough. If I'm right, the "shock and awe" part of this is imminent.

[TFC07]

Ontario Place.

That is a billion dollar asset they can't figure out what to do with.

But Tim Leiweke, Drake, and Bon Jovi know what to do with it.

I expect there would also be some massive convention center story as part of this, there always is. The next orlando or Las Vegas, yadda yadda yadda.

Ontario place is owned by provincial government who plan on building an urban park. Plans already have been in place and I believe it will be done sometime next year.

[Red Rat]

Ontario Place.

That is a billion dollar asset they can't figure out what to do with.

But Tim Leiweke, Drake, and Bon Jovi know what to do with it.

I expect there would also be some massive convention center story as part of this, there always is. The next orlando or Las Vegas, yadda yadda yadda.



They will build a Crystal meth factory, with distribution right going to MLSE and the Teacher's Pension Plan!!!!

[ensco]

Ontario place is owned by provincial government who plan on building an urban park. Plans already have been in place and I believe it will be done sometime next year.

Well, if putting condos in there is a campaign issue, it can't be settled yet.
http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/05/19/kathleen_wynne_vows_no_condos_at_ontario_place.htm l

[TFC07]

Well, if putting condos in there is a campaign issue, it can't be settled yet.
http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/05/19/kathleen_wynne_vows_no_condos_at_ontario_place.htm l
I don't see other parties being open to building condos there. So I am not sure why this is consider an issue unless Wynne is trying to win some votes with locals?

[Mark TFC]

Fan-effing-tastic news! Let's hope it sticks and the Argos find elsewhere to trample.

[prizby]

Well, if putting condos in there is a campaign issue, it can't be settled yet.
http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/05/19/kathleen_wynne_vows_no_condos_at_ontario_place.htm l

why not build a massive 100 story that is 3 blocks long and put a stadium on the 101st floor!

[Cas87]

why not build a massive 100 story that is 3 blocks long and put a stadium on the 101st floor!

http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20130510/001ec949ff5c12f6d63600.jpg

Inspiration?

[Pookie]

Corporate welfare seekers often threaten to take their toys and go home if they don't get what they want.

I'd like to think this is the end of it but skeptical that it is simply a phase.

[ensco]

why not build a massive 100 story that is 3 blocks long and put a stadium on the 101st floor!

There are a dozen futsal pitches on rooftops in Tokyo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CNp0EppXd0

[Beach_Red]

I don't see other parties being open to building condos there. So I am not sure why this is consider an issue unless Wynne is trying to win some votes with locals?

Or win votes outside the city - why should the province spend money on a park for Toronto when they could develop the land and make a lot of money? There are always votes to be won by appearing to take something away from Toronto that it wants.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

also they use nets on the sides and on the top of the field, got a ton of em in Korea too. Really miss having those about

[MightyDM]

Motive is Bell seeing an immediate partial refund on their TV Rights deal, which they currently pay somewhere in between $30-40 million per season. That means millions back into their pocket that was already gone.

Motive is having negotiating a new stadium rights deal in 2016 with the Argos on board. Either that or you slap the Bell or Rogers logo on the stadium and now have a tenant you own who brings in 2x-4x the amount of ratings.

Argos would sell out BMO field for every single CFL game. Montreal had their problems in Olympic Stadium too until they moved.

One thing to remember is that SkyDome was purpose built for the Argos. 600+ million dollars for that stadium.

[Redcoe15]

Sounds a lot like political posturing going around, so I'll wait for the official response about the renovations before I either cheer or despair about the Argos moving to BMO Field.

But I gotta say, It seems the big hope for keeping BMO Field gridiorn free is for Tim Hudak and the Conservatives to win the provincial election next month.

Lovely. :prrr:

[ensco]

One thing to remember is that SkyDome was purpose built for the Argos.

Ummm ... is this sarcasm?

[Haddy]

Sportsnet and The Star are both reporting that the Argos-to-BMO option is not dead at all. Basically stalled or postponed.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2014/05/27/argonauts_move_to_bmo_field_on_hold_mlse_says.html

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/argos-say-they-remain-in-talks-with-mlse-to-move-into-bmo-field/

Daniel Dale's Star article basically makes it seem like the Argos reno will happen, just not when we thought it would.

[Suds]

Sportsnet and The Star are both reporting that the Argos-to-BMO option is not dead at all. Basically stalled or postponed.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2014/05/27/argonauts_move_to_bmo_field_on_hold_mlse_says.html

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/argos-say-they-remain-in-talks-with-mlse-to-move-into-bmo-field/

Daniel Dale's Star article basically makes it seem like the Argos reno will happen, just not when we thought it would.

It's never dead when corporations are looking for public money. One thing is for sure, when whatever level of current gov't says no to your request just wait. There will always be another election and possibly new people to negotiate with.

[GabrielHurl]

This scenario doesn't work. Even if you buy the Edward Rogers part (I don't), I think the odds of George Cope going along with this are about a quadrillion to one. Bell's motive would be to stop this, not to facilitate it. It would have to happen around MLSE.

Leiweke's game has never been about the Argos, or $10M. He is after 50x that. This whole thing is a mirage designed to mask that.

I think Leiweke thinks this is something MLSE can do, and that the NFL would look away re the ownership problem. not much else would make sense.

Whether MLSE is really there for this NFL dream is strictly a function of how many hundreds of millions Leiweke can pry out of the various governments.

Coming up next: get ready to meet the World Cup 2026 Toronto bid team, folks.

I thought this whole thing was to enable the Leafs to play multiple outdoor games a season?

[greatwhitenorf]

Sportsnet and The Star are both reporting that the Argos-to-BMO option is not dead at all. Basically stalled or postponed.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2014/05/27/argonauts_move_to_bmo_field_on_hold_mlse_says.html

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/argos-say-they-remain-in-talks-with-mlse-to-move-into-bmo-field/

Daniel Dale's Star article basically makes it seem like the Argos reno will happen, just not when we thought it would.

The longer a re-fit to accommodate the Argos is put off, the better it is for TFC and the less likely the Argos will move in. Time goes by, other options emerge, the costs go up, the money gets a little harder to come by.

It's not any one big circumstance that kills it. It just gets nibbled to death by ducks.

[ensco]

I thought this whole thing was to enable the Leafs to play multiple outdoor games a season?

That's still true. I'm beginning to think that's only a small part of it.

He is playing a hand where only he sees the cards. The leak to Kelly was very deliberate, as were the denials later in the day. Feels to me like he's trying to spike the BMO deal without being seen as the guy who actually did it.

I've felt all along that we couldn't really get a bead on the guy. Today, for the first time, I have an inkling.

Face it, the BMO reno is a kludgy nothing in the scheme of things. If you look at who Leiweke is, he builds megavenues. That's what he's done. He doesn't run sports teams. LA Live, London O2, the KC arena and surroundings, that's his resume.

Is he actually trying to put together one of the biggest real estate deals in the world? Soccer, NFL Football, outdoor hockey, concerts, hotels, other stuff ... World Cup 2026 ... all on the waterfront ....

LA Live on super steroids.

Of course, this could just be my imagination! I get accused of that regularly! g:D

[reggie]

I don't see anything wrong with that...if he can do it more power to him.

[greatwhitenorf]

That's still true. I'm beginning to think that's only a small part of it.

He is playing a hand where only he sees the cards. The leak to Kelly was very deliberate, as were the denials later in the day. Feels to me like he's trying to spike the BMO deal without being seen as the guy who actually did it.

I've felt all along that we couldn't really get a bead on the guy. Today, for the first time, I have an inkling.

Face it, the BMO reno is a kludgy nothing in the scheme of things. If you look at who Leiweke is, he builds megavenues. That's what he's done. He doesn't run sports teams. LA Live, London O2, the KC arena and surroundings, that's his resume.

Is he actually trying to put together one of the biggest real estate deals in the world? Soccer, NFL Football, outdoor hockey, concerts, hotels, other stuff ... World Cup 2026 ... all on the waterfront ....

LA Live on super steroids.

Of course, this could just be my imagination! I get accused of that regularly! g:D

Didn't exactly cover himself in glory with Tottenham Hotspur's potential move into the London Olympic stadium. Huge mistake, from a sporting cultural standpoint. Working within a very complex environment, mind, and a chairman determined to drive the best possible bargain at all costs.

[ensco]

I don't see anything wrong with that...if he can do it more power to him.

This would be cool.

If it weren't for the hundreds of millions in public money, I'd agree.

[Shakes McQueen]

"Argos to BMO" will never completely die, so long as the city continues to own the stadium, and MLSE continues to occasionally come, hat-in-hand, asking for some amount of money from the city or province. However, it at least appears to be dead for now.

I don't really see what the Argos do now, aside from putting more bleachers in at York U. They are being kicked out of the Rogers Centre in 2017, and no one even wants the team, let alone wants to put out the cash to build them a new stadium.

So I guess they are also ditching the retractable north/south stands, with the fieldturf end zones?

[OgtheDim]

Ontario Place.

That is a billion dollar asset they can't figure out what to do with.

But Tim Leiweke, Drake, and Bon Jovi know what to do with it.

I expect there would also be some massive convention center story as part of this, there always is. The next orlando or Las Vegas, yadda yadda yadda.

Not a hope in hell of it going there. There isn't the sewage infrastructure nor can the roads be adjusted to handle 90000 people. And, if the Libs win in Ontario or Chow wins in Toronto, the only political support is Mark Grimes.

[ensco]

Not a hope in hell of it going there. There isn't the sewage infrastructure nor can the roads be adjusted to handle 90000 people. And, if the Libs win in Ontario or Chow wins in Toronto, the only political support is Mark Grimes.

Details.

They can put the sewage pipe in next to the tunnel connecting Ontario Place to the island airport, which will have jet service, so the Fifacrats can fly to the game, literally.

[ag futbol]

Not a hope in hell of it going there. There isn't the sewage infrastructure nor can the roads be adjusted to handle 90000 people. And, if the Libs win in Ontario or Chow wins in Toronto, the only political support is Mark Grimes.
This city can barely handle the infrastructure requirements it has on it's plate... Not that it's ever stopped them from green lighting a project.

[OgtheDim]

One thing to remember is that SkyDome was purpose built for the Argos. 600+ million dollars for that stadium.

Uh.... no.

Labatt's pulled the strings on that whole design.

[MightyDM]

Ummm ... is this sarcasm?

No. The SkyDome was purpose built to include the Argos. We all think of it as the Jays stadium but from the beginning it was equally designed for the Argos. My point is that they have Already benefitted from a massive public subsidy. (It also shows the risk of a multiple sport stadium as it doesn't really work for any of them.)

[MightyDM]

Uh.... no.

Labatt's pulled the strings on that whole design.

I don't think that you are correct there. And I was a Jays season ticket holder at the time so paid very close attention to the whole thing. Do you have a link that says the stadium was not designed to be convertible for football?

[ensco]

No. The SkyDome was purpose built to include the Argos. We all think of it as the Jays stadium but from the beginning it was equally designed for the Argos. My point is that they have Already benefitted from a massive public subsidy. (It also shows the risk of a multiple sport stadium as it doesn't really work for any of them.

Ah OK I buy that.

[OgtheDim]

The NFL will NEVER put itself in a position where there is an issue with infrastructure, after that fiasco in New Orleans during the Super Bowl.

[OgtheDim]

The design is baseball friendly and CFL averse. The rake of the seats and the curve of the stands are awful. The closest football fans to the field are 5 yards deep in the end zone. Sure there is a football setup. But ever since they adjusted the one side of Exhibition Stadium to create the Jays stands, the Argo experience has been compromised.

They'll get a decent one if they get into BMO.

[Pookie]

"Argos to BMO" will never completely die, so long as the city continues to own the stadium, and MLSE continues to occasionally come, hat-in-hand, asking for some amount of money from the city or province. However, it at least appears to be dead for now.

I don't really see what the Argos do now, aside from putting more bleachers in at York U. They are being kicked out of the Rogers Centre in 2017, and no one even wants the team, let alone wants to put out the cash to build them a new stadium.

So I guess they are also ditching the retractable north/south stands, with the fieldturf end zones?

Just thinking out loud but the current BMO agreement includes the "Argos Clause" which holds that the owner of the Argos is responsible for all renovations costs if they want to move in.

How much do you think it would cost to knock out those temporary ends and force fit a CFL stadium? BMO was already built to accommodate them. No roof of course. Nothing fancy. No new concessions. Bare bones.

If Braley and the City came to an agreement, is there anything MLSE could do to stop it?

[OgtheDim]

The City would be on the hook for 50% of all capital repairs. The current deal, with or without the feds is way better for the city.

[MightyDM]

The design is baseball friendly and CFL averse. The rake of the seats and the curve of the stands are awful. The closest football fans to the field are 5 yards deep in the end zone. Sure there is a football setup. But ever since they adjusted the one side of Exhibition Stadium to create the Jays stands, the Argo experience has been compromised.

They'll get a decent one if they get into BMO.

I agree with you. But it doesn't change the fact that the Dome, at great expense, was designed to include the Argos. They have already had their public subsidy.

[TorontoGooner]

Details.

They can put the sewage pipe in next to the tunnel connecting Ontario Place to the island airport, which will have jet service, so the Fifacrats can fly to the game, literally.

Don't want to be technical here, but the Island isn't ready to handle executive jet traffic. I'm pretty sure Porter will only be approved a small amount of jets, and even then its already over capacity. The island airport would never be used as the executive airport in this city; that would always come down to Pearson, Buttonville and/or Oshawa.

Simply put, Ontario Place could not be adjusted to handle a 90,000 seat stadium. The roads aren't sufficient and there is no mass public transit options down there. Any new stadium would go to maybe Downsview,

[Pookie]

The City would be on the hook for 50% of all capital repairs. The current deal, with or without the feds is way better for the city.

Not necessarily. More rental dates means more revenue. Regardless of the renovation threat MLSE is holding over them. Maybe a rented and sold out BMO for CFL games and playoffs and Grey Cups works out to be more lucrative than paying the repair bill.

It is in the City's interest to have the Argos there. Maybe they need to explore whether they could do it with Braley.

I do think that the best option is the original deal that is on the table. But if MLSE wants them to chip in for a soccer stadium that is already built, I think you have to do the math to determine the best options.

There is no way.. I think... That MLSE would sit by and watch Braley make a deal that made BMO look like a football stadium.

If that gets put on the table, I'd wager MLSE moves forward, buys the Argos and this deal continues with or without government funding.

[Shakes McQueen]

Just thinking out loud but the current BMO agreement includes the "Argos Clause" which holds that the owner of the Argos is responsible for all renovations costs if they want to move in.

How much do you think it would cost to knock out those temporary ends and force fit a CFL stadium? BMO was already built to accommodate them. No roof of course. Nothing fancy. No new concessions. Bare bones.

If Braley and the City came to an agreement, is there anything MLSE could do to stop it?

Interesting question. I know that MLSE can't do anything without the city's go-ahead, but can the city do whatever it wants without MLSE's agreement? I'm not familiar enough with the nitty-gritty of MLSE's million year "management" agreement of BMO to say.

[Kaz]

Just thinking out loud but the current BMO agreement includes the "Argos Clause" which holds that the owner of the Argos is responsible for all renovations costs if they want to move in.

How much do you think it would cost to knock out those temporary ends and force fit a CFL stadium? BMO was already built to accommodate them. No roof of course. Nothing fancy. No new concessions. Bare bones.

If Braley and the City came to an agreement, is there anything MLSE could do to stop it?

The issue with that is MLSE is not going to accept a decrease in seating capacity lower then 20,000. If you take out both the North and South Stands in order to fit a CFL field and keep it centred. I can't see that costing less then 15-20 million, and would reduce capacity to below 18,000 I believe. CFL isn't going to be happy with that, MLS isn't going to be happy with that, CFL fans won't be happy, TFC fans won't be happy, and MLSE will be furious. Plus the City would then be on the hook for the capital costs costing the city 10-15 million. MLSE will likely just say screw it take 80-120 million and build a Houston level stadium at Downsview, with everything it needs to hold the winter classic. (unlike as that is) Or MLSE would just sue the city and Braley for lowering the capacity without their approval and ripping out the infrastructure MLSE paid to put in with Councils approval. Either way it would be cheaper for Braley to toss in the 10 million for the stadium upgrade the Feds are saying no too.

[Pookie]

The issue with that is MLSE is not going to accept a decrease in seating capacity lower then 20,000. If you take out both the North and South Stands in order to fit a CFL field and keep it centred. I can't see that costing less then 15-20 million, and would reduce capacity to below 18,000 I believe. CFL isn't going to be happy with that, MLS isn't going to be happy with that, CFL fans won't be happy, TFC fans won't be happy, and MLSE will be furious. Plus the City would then be on the hook for the capital costs costing the city 10-15 million. MLSE will likely just say screw it take 80-120 million and build a Houston level stadium at Downsview, with everything it needs to hold the winter classic. (unlike as that is) Or MLSE would just sue the city and Braley for lowering the capacity without their approval and ripping out the infrastructure MLSE paid to put in with Councils approval. Either way it would be cheaper for Braley to toss in the 10 million for the stadium upgrade the Feds are saying no too.

You don't necessarily need to take them out, just retractable or another from of temporary. The stadium was supposedly built to accommodate the Argos so there is a solution there for much less than $100m.

Anyways, I think all this is just posturing. Owners always threaten to take their toys away when they don't get what they want. Would be nice though to see the City doing a little posturing of their own.

I just pondered the basic facts in that the City owns it. It is in their interests to have the Argos in and if they can't make it happen with MLSE, would they try a direct approach with the Argos? I don't see or hear anything that would stop them.

[james]

I think the Argos at BMO field expansion is still on-going. By no means does it look dead. This thread just shows that.

[Cashcleaner]

No. The SkyDome was purpose built to include the Argos. We all think of it as the Jays stadium but from the beginning it was equally designed for the Argos. My point is that they have already benefited from a massive public subsidy. (It also shows the risk of a multiple sport stadium as it doesn't really work for any of them.)

Yep. The plan to build Skydome was initially hatched after the disastrous Grey Cup game played at Exhibition Stadium in 1982 where heavy rain pretty much ruined the match. And the idea to go with a circular domed design was inspired by the following Grey Cup played in the newly-built BC Place. Many of the Toronto politicians and city managers that travelled to BC Place to watch the game went on record saying they wanted a stadium just like the one they had visited in Vancouver.


I think the Argos at BMO field expansion is still on-going. By no means does it look dead. This thread just shows that.

Agreed. There is absolutely nothing I've read in the papers or seen on television that suggest all this is over.

Until I see MLSE pour a few hundred tonnes of concrete in the north or south ends and lay down some serious steel construction that would require a massive demolition job to change or remove, there will always be a shadow of the Argos hanging over BMO Field in my mind.

[Pookie]

Agreed. There is absolutely nothing I've read in the papers or seen on television that suggest all this is over.

Until I see MLSE pour a few hundred tonnes of concrete in the north or south ends and lay down some serious steel construction that would require a massive demolition job to change or remove, there will always be a shadow of the Argos hanging over BMO Field in my mind.

Agreed. And don't forget the City approves the final construction plans.

I cannot fathom them approving a design that permanently shuts the Argos out.

Or MLSE permanently shuts itself out of Grey Cups.

[tfcleeds]

No, this will still be hanging over our heads for some time yet, agreed. But if it delays the Argos groundshare for another season or two, that's something, I guess.

[Kaz]

You don't necessarily need to take them out, just retractable or another from of temporary. The stadium was supposedly built to accommodate the Argos so there is a solution there for much less than $100m.

Anyways, I think all this is just posturing. Owners always threaten to take their toys away when they don't get what they want. Would be nice though to see the City doing a little posturing of their own.

I just pondered the basic facts in that the City owns it. It is in their interests to have the Argos in and if they can't make it happen with MLSE, would they try a direct approach with the Argos? I don't see or hear anything that would stop them.
Well just taking the seats out to increase the field size is a large undertaking less then 100 million sure.. but more then anyone is willing to spend... otherwise why wouldn't he speak up and over up the 10 million or even the 20 million the feds are being asked for. Either He has no interest, because he knows he is selling... or he doesn't have the liquid resources.

There is little that is stopping the city, so long as they don't mind pissing off MLSE.

[Still Kicking]

Just to kill the Skydome designed for the Argos pipedream.
I was a season ticket holder for the Argos in the 80s. Waited for the Dome with hope.
First game there we are in the 100 level - sidelines and we are unable to see the game. The slope of the 100 level is so gradual (perfect for baseball) that we are looking at the asses of the Argos standing, the heads of the Argos sitting on the bench and Bob O'Billovich. It was as if the designers were unaware that CFL players occupy a bench on the sideline and the sideline seat section needs to be steep and begin above the benches (Lambeau Leap anyone?). We relocated to section 500 to get a view that was a full field, but removed. The Dome was a baseball park from day one......

[Fort York Redcoat]

Just to kill the Skydome designed for the Argos pipedream.
I was a season ticket holder for the Argos in the 80s. Waited for the Dome with hope.
First game there we are in the 100 level - sidelines and we are unable to see the game. The slope of the 100 level is so gradual (perfect for baseball) that we are looking at the asses of the Argos standing, the heads of the Argos sitting on the bench and Bob O'Billovich. It was as if the designers were unaware that CFL players occupy a bench on the sideline and the sideline seat section needs to be steep and begin above the benches (Lambeau Leap anyone?). We relocated to section 500 to get a view that was a full field, but removed. The Dome was a baseball park from day one......

This doesn't prove the Dome wasn't designed for gridiron. Just that it wasn't gridiron first. If you're trying to tell me they installed a swiveling 100 section for extra events other than gridiron exclusively that's a pretty hard sell. They intended to play gridiron in the Dome. They just didn't want to sacrifice the seats for baseball.

[Red CB Toronto]

I think it time for the purple one just to bring us together and have fun, looking forward to June 25.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I think it time for the purple one just to bring us together and have fun, looking forward to June 25.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5ASAf5jxhSc/Tfo7o1tC6-I/AAAAAAAAATs/PzOWgBgriJc/s1600/P1120966.JPG



Here ya go.


What's June 25?

[TFC07]

June 25 is deadline for Feds to come up with $10 million. Also, remember that provincial government isn't sure thing either. If Liberals lose, then there's a good chance City/MLSE isn't going to get $10 million from provincial side.

[Cashcleaner]

Just to kill the Skydome designed for the Argos pipedream.
I was a season ticket holder for the Argos in the 80s. Waited for the Dome with hope.
First game there we are in the 100 level - sidelines and we are unable to see the game. The slope of the 100 level is so gradual (perfect for baseball) that we are looking at the asses of the Argos standing, the heads of the Argos sitting on the bench and Bob O'Billovich. It was as if the designers were unaware that CFL players occupy a bench on the sideline and the sideline seat section needs to be steep and begin above the benches (Lambeau Leap anyone?). We relocated to section 500 to get a view that was a full field, but removed. The Dome was a baseball park from day one......

The actual pen-and-paper aspect of the design included both baseball and football requirements, that's true. A lot of stuff ended up getting compromised between the needs of the Jays and the Argos. Hence why it's not a particularly great venue for either sport.

[james]

Just to kill the Skydome designed for the Argos pipedream.
I was a season ticket holder for the Argos in the 80s. Waited for the Dome with hope.
First game there we are in the 100 level - sidelines and we are unable to see the game. The slope of the 100 level is so gradual (perfect for baseball) that we are looking at the asses of the Argos standing, the heads of the Argos sitting on the bench and Bob O'Billovich. It was as if the designers were unaware that CFL players occupy a bench on the sideline and the sideline seat section needs to be steep and begin above the benches (Lambeau Leap anyone?). We relocated to section 500 to get a view that was a full field, but removed. The Dome was a baseball park from day one......


I think it was a stadium built for all-purpose sporting events, but the biggest tenant was the Blue Jays no doubt about it. As many people know back then Domes were all over USA and Canada, you could play baseball, football, soccer, monster truck rallies, concerts....people just didn't realize how ugly they were and how bad the view lines were. As many people know Sky Dome was one of the best and newest Domes of it's time, and one hell of a project to build a retractable roof at the time. But that was also the end of the Dome era's, Baltimore built old school style baseball park and that just changed new baseball parks to this day. Domes were always ugly things. To bad Blue Jays didn't stay playing at Exhibition stadium a few more years, you might of had an entire different stadium built where the sky dome is today, and Argo's might of built a new stadium or renovated Exhibition by now (tho renovating could of changed where we play today for good or bad), they might of never shared a stadium with the Blue Jays.

That said, Argos also could of built a dam stadium at York University, or they had the chance to share a stadium at BMO field back in day 1. They really just seem to screw shit up, best said was someone on here saying something a long the lines of "Argos are like a unwanted guy in his 20somethings, no one really wants you living at there home any more but you can never seem to afford to move out and spread your wings".

[ensco]

There was a bunch of stuff done that affected sightlines to make Skydome a potential convention center venue. Which was one of the gigantic mistakes.

[TFC07]

Agreed. And don't forget the City approves the final construction plans.

I cannot fathom them approving a design that permanently shuts the Argos out.

Or MLSE permanently shuts itself out of Grey Cups.

Grey Cup will never be played at Exhibition Place after what happened in 1982 Grey Cup. In fact, that was turning point of creating Sky Dome after Argos fans protested after Grey Gup to city to build a dome stadium.

This is why I find it so funny that Argos are going to be returning to same place where they wanted to leave and be inside dome stadium.

[Canary10]

There was a bunch of stuff done that affected sightlines to make Skydome a potential convention center venue. Which was one of the gigantic mistakes.

Really? Was there any use they didn't foresee Skydome filling? It's a baseball stadium. It's a football stadium. It's a hotel. It's a convention centre. It's the new city hall. Stop, you're all right!

[Beach_Red]

Grey Cup will never be played at Exhibition Place after what happened in 1982 Grey Cup. In fact, that was turning point of creating Sky Dome after Argos fans protested after Grey Gup to city to build a dome stadium.

This is why I find it so funny that Argos are going to be returning to same place where they wanted to leave and be inside dome stadium.

Maybe not, but things have changed. That was before the most successful Grey Cups were outdoors in Regina and Edmonton and before people developed the (strange) love for outdoor hockey games.

[Kaz]

Grey Cup will never be played at Exhibition Place after what happened in 1982 Grey Cup. In fact, that was turning point of creating Sky Dome after Argos fans protested after Grey Gup to city to build a dome stadium.

This is why I find it so funny that Argos are going to be returning to same place where they wanted to leave and be inside dome stadium.

BS.

The Rain Bowl happened in a stadium that had no drainage and wasn't well designed.

The BMO redesign can be dealt with in such a manner to effectively nullify nearly all of those issues...

People were pissed because they got wet without a roof.. TFC have whined about no roof for years... a Roof is coming...

more robust grass, and drainage would nullify most of the issues.

as such there is no reason why a Grey cup with 35,000 seats (25,000 plus 10,000 temp seats) can't happen at BMO.

[TFC07]

Maybe not, but things have changed. That was before the most successful Grey Cups were outdoors in Regina and Edmonton and before people developed the (strange) love for outdoor hockey games.

Weather hasn't exactly changed. Just imagine playing by the lake in November and how cold & wet it will be in the stands. There's a reason why there call it "Mistake by the Lake".

[TFC07]

BS.

The Rain Bowl happened in a stadium that had no drainage and wasn't well designed.

The BMO redesign can be dealt with in such a manner to effectively nullify nearly all of those issues...

People were pissed because they got wet without a roof.. TFC have whined about no roof for years... a Roof is coming...

more robust grass, and drainage would nullify most of the issues.

as such there is no reason why a Grey cup with 35,000 seats (25,000 plus 10,000 temp seats) can't happen at BMO.

We are excepted to have some sort of half ass roof to cover parts of BMO field.

35,000 seat is too small to host Grey Cup. Rogers Centre makes way more sense to host a major event like Grey Cup (indoor dome with 50K seats).

[Beach_Red]

Weather hasn't exactly changed. Just imagine playing by the lake in November and how cold & wet it will be in the stands. There's a reason why there call it "Mistake by the Lake".

Yeah, I agree with you but I don't see any big, privately-funded stadiums coming to Toronto any time soon so we'll likely always have some kind of compromised, "good enough" stadium.

[notthesun]

https://twitter.com/FadooBobcat/status/483745485224947712

"MLSE will not buy Argos and move them to BMO. Asking price was 10 million+ percentage of future Grey Cup revenue. Deal is dead."

[reggie]

can we please put this story to bed...

[mowe]

can we please put this story to bed...

Not until they find another place to play. Argos to BMO makes too much sense to go away.

[TFC07]

https://twitter.com/FadooBobcat/status/483745485224947712

"MLSE will not buy Argos and move them to BMO. Asking price was 10 million+ percentage of future Grey Cup revenue. Deal is dead."

It doesn't change the fact that Argos can still move to BMO field since City of Toronto owns the stadium not MLSE. If Feds to step up, then Argos will make their way to BMO field.

[reggie]

they only have 3500 season tickets,they are losing money and over priced for somebody to buy,this team may fold?

[barticusz]

Mccown may it sound like there may not even be a stadium reno. "Why reno if no football team is going to move in. Just wait for a subsequent announcement"

We were supposed to see drawings in June. Nothing.

[Haddy]

https://twitter.com/FadooBobcat/status/483745485224947712

"MLSE will not buy Argos and move them to BMO. Asking price was 10 million+ percentage of future Grey Cup revenue. Deal is dead."

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/pts-argos-to-mlse-a-dead-deal/

Video.

[Pint]

Mccown may it sound like there may not even be a stadium reno. "Why reno if no football team is going to move in. Just wait for a subsequent announcement"

We were supposed to see drawings in June. Nothing.

I think he was speculating about the reno part. They will still want expanded seating for TFC, winterizing the stadium, and the ability to host special events.

[TFC07]

they only have 3500 season tickets,they are losing money and over priced for somebody to buy,this team may fold?
You have source? I think that's way too low for pro team in Toronto. I think they should be around 10,000 given season ticket prices are usually cheap.

[Hamilton_Red]

10 Million... That's 1.5 seasons of Jermaine Defoe! Chump change really?

[TFC07]

10 Million... That's 1.5 seasons of Jermaine Defoe! Chump change really?

Argos lose about $3 million to $6 million per year depending who you believe. Plus, there's a lot of competition for sports dollar in Toronto which is going to be hard for Argos to make any money. Keep in mind that they don't have a stadium after their 2016 season, so that means you either build a new stadium or rent BMO field which is going to be costly due to being owned by City and manage by MLSE (who get piece of money since they operate BMO field).

ROI owning Argos in Toronto isn't there unless you plan to move Argos in 905 region where Canadian/American football is more accepted than 416 region.

[Haddy]

You have source? I think that's way too low for pro team in Toronto. I think they should be around 10,000 given season ticket prices are usually cheap.

That number is mentioned in the video I linked to above.

[TFC07]

That number is mentioned in the video I linked to above.


heard it on prime time sport tonight...

Wow, I just saw that. Okay, maybe Argos are going to fold or CFL will take over the team (similar to MLS taking over Chivas USA) if they can't find an owner by 2017.

Argos = Chivas USA of CFL.

[reggie]

You have source? I think that's way too low for pro team in Toronto. I think they should be around 10,000 given season ticket prices are usually cheap.

heard it on prime time sport tonight...

[Shakes McQueen]

Wow, I just saw that. Okay, maybe Argos are going to fold or CFL will take over the team (similar to MLS taking over Chivas USA) if they can't find an owner by 2017.

Argos = Chivas USA of CFL.

CFL would never let the Argos just fold. They'd operate the team themselves before they'd let that happen.

[TFC07]

CFL would never let the Argos just fold. They'd operate the team themselves before they'd let that happen.

Play where?

[Shakes McQueen]

Argos lose about $3 million to $6 million per year depending who you believe. Plus, there's a lot of competition for sports dollar in Toronto which is going to be hard for Argos to make any money. Keep in mind that they don't have a stadium after their 2016 season, so that means you either build a new stadium or rent BMO field which is going to be costly due to being owned by City and manage by MLSE (who get piece of money since they operate BMO field).

ROI owning Argos in Toronto isn't there unless you plan to move Argos in 905 region where Canadian/American football is more accepted than 416 region.

Argos only ever made sense to MLSE, if it came as part a grander strategy to get an NFL team, by assuring Goodell that the Toronto CFL team would survive (since Goodell reportedly wouldn't want to look like he was coming in and destroying the CFL/Argos). Without that, they make zero sense.

[TFC07]

Argos only ever made sense to MLSE, if it came as part a grander strategy to get an NFL team, by assuring Goodell that the Toronto CFL team would survive (since Goodell reportedly wouldn't want to look like he was coming in and destroying the CFL/Argos). Without that, they make zero sense.

This could be real reason why deal is dead. Bills have a lot interested parties who willing to buy the Bills and keep them in Western New York. So maybe MLSE and co realize that and decided to back down.

[Shakes McQueen]

Play where?

Who knows? They are the oldest pro sports team on the continent, basically a historical city relic, and incredibly important to the league overall (for as much of a mess as they've been the last 10 years at least).

They've also still got three years to figure something out, and I suspect we will still hear the words "BMO Field" from time to time between now and then. Such is the fate of having a stadium owned by the city.

[TFC07]

Who knows? They are the oldest pro sports team on the continent, basically a historical city relic, and incredibly important to the league overall (for as much of a mess as they've been the last 10 years at least).

They've also still got three years to figure something out, and I suspect we will still hear the words "BMO Field" from time to time between now and then. Such is the fate of having a stadium owned by the city.

Fair enough.

Right now, what's holding up the deal for Argos to move BMO field is $10 million commitment from Federal government (assuming Provincial government already give $10 million to MLSE to rebuild BMO field).

I wonder if CFL steps up and pay that $10 million themselves and sign long term lease deal with City/MLSE (MLSE have some say on this since they manage BMO field behalf of City).

[Beach_Red]

Argos only ever made sense to MLSE, if it came as part a grander strategy to get an NFL team, by assuring Goodell that the Toronto CFL team would survive (since Goodell reportedly wouldn't want to look like he was coming in and destroying the CFL/Argos). Without that, they make zero sense.

The Argos really only make sense as part of the CFL TV ratings and Canadian Content for TSN (Bell) is very important. The NFL is great ratings for TSN but it isn't Canadian Content. The CFL has been reliable Canadian ratings. How much would those ratings suffer without a team in Toronto?

[Shakes McQueen]

The Argos really only make sense as part of the CFL TV ratings and Canadian Content for TSN (Bell) is very important. The NFL is great ratings for TSN but it isn't Canadian Content. The CFL has been reliable Canadian ratings. How much would those ratings suffer without a team in Toronto?

This is part of the reason I said they are so important to the CFL, no matter how poorly they've been run the past decade. Having a team in Canada's biggest city, in the league of so few teams, is vitally important.

[OgtheDim]

Meh.....negotiations. MLSE lets out through one of its known media vents that Braley wants too much money for their liking. Price will drop. MLSE don't need the Argos but Braley doesn't need the headache of a relocation.

Next penny to drop in all this is reno plans for BMO. Probably waiting on provincial money to announce. I'm thinking that comes out around July 8th.

McCowan's musing about no reno without the Argos is just him showing his ignorance. The stadium is falling apart - the city wants this. Its going ahead. He's thinking the stadium revolves around the Argos. Puck head until the end.

[ensco]

"The stadium is falling apart"

This has been posted as a "fact" before, but it is not true.

[Shakes McQueen]

In what way is BMO Field "falling apart"?

[OgtheDim]

Your right. I was using hyperbole.

But there is water damage that needs to be addressed.

[Pookie]

Play where?

Why would BMO be off the table just because MLSE isn't buying them (yet)?

MLSE doesn't own BMO. The city does.

The current legal agreement has an Argos Clause that allows them to move in, at the expense of the owner.

The stadium was built with temporary stands to allow for CFL expansion.

If the City was willing to kick in to help MLSE expand, why wouldn't it kick in to help Braley move in?

Even if it didn't, Braley could likely find the funds with help from the CFL.

Now, it wouldn't be a $100M Reno. But moving temporary stands back some yards and filling in endzones with turf is probably well within the budget. I'd guess about 7-10M since the whole stadium was built for under $70m.

Think the Argos care about the TFC's fan experience? So what if the south end is yards away from the pitch. Aside from complaining, I don't see what MLSE could do to stop it as it currently stands.

Their only hope would seemingly be to push through stadium expansion and make it cost prohibitive to retrofit it.

Or, since this is all supposedly about the TFC fan experience, take their $100M and build their own stadium. But that isn't going to happen is it?

[TFC07]

Why would BMO be off the table just because MLSE isn't buying them (yet)?

MLSE doesn't own BMO. The city does.

The current legal agreement has an Argos Clause that allows them to move in, at the expense of the owner.

The stadium was built with temporary stands to allow for CFL expansion.

If the City was willing to kick in to help MLSE expand, why wouldn't it kick in to help Braley move in?

Even if it didn't, Braley could likely find the funds with help from the CFL.

Now, it wouldn't be a $100M Reno. But moving temporary stands back some yards and filling in endzones with turf is probably well within the budget. I'd guess about 7-10M since the whole stadium was built for under $70m.

Think the Argos care about the TFC's fan experience? So what if the south end is yards away from the pitch. Aside from complaining, I don't see what MLSE could do to stop it as it currently stands.

Their only hope would seemingly be to push through stadium expansion and make it cost prohibitive to retrofit it.

Or, since this is all supposedly about the TFC fan experience, take their $100M and build their own stadium. But that isn't going to happen is it?

You know TFC are primary tenant of BMO field, right? MLSE is operating BMO field on City behalf, so they will have some say (in terms of date, turf, expansion etc.). CFL hasn't stepped up to contribute any money into BMO field renovation so City had to get other governments to pitch in which we still don't know if they will ever contribute any money to BMO field. Right now, Argos/CFL need $20 million if two government bodies (provincial and federal) don't step up. I am sure City of Toronto isn't stupid enough to hurt soccer (both TFC and international soccer) that will use BMO field triple amount more than CFL/Argos will use.

Given current state of Argos, why would you make that kind of investment?

Last thing, City has already approved new plan so construction to rebuild BMO field is going to start this Fall. So there's no going back once construction starts.

[Beach_Red]

You know TFC are primary tenant of BMO field, right? MLSE is operating BMO field on City behalf, so they will have some say (in terms of date, turf, expansion etc.). CFL hasn't stepped up to contribute any money into BMO field renovation so City had to get other governments to pitch in which we still don't know if they will ever contribute any money to BMO field. Right now, Argos/CFL need $20 million if two government bodies (provincial and federal) don't step up. I am sure City of Toronto isn't stupid enough to hurt soccer (both TFC and international soccer) that will use BMO field triple amount more than CFL/Argos will use.

Given current state of Argos, why would you make that kind of investment?

Last thing, City has already approved new plan so construction to rebuild BMO field is going to start this Fall. So there's no going back once construction starts.

Is David Braley doing the talking for the Argos? It would be interesting (I think, anyway) to hear what's going on behind the scenes with all the parties involved, nothing about this is clear-cut, so many agendas at play.

[TFC07]

Is David Braley doing the talking for the Argos? It would be interesting (I think, anyway) to hear what's going on behind the scenes with all the parties involved, nothing about this is clear-cut, so many agendas at play.

I believe both CFL Commissioner and Braley are doing the talking for Argos.

[OgtheDim]

The city isn't investing in BMO beyond $10 million. Other governments were only $20 million. The majority of this was going to be MLSE.

The CFL never was investing in BMO.

MLSE is investing in BMO for the sake of

a) saving money long term in fixes

b) Leafs outdoor games

c) TFC

If the city doesn't take MLSE's money, the city would be on the hook for half of any necessary capital fixes to BMO. That''s estimated at about $15 million sometime in the next 5 years.

i.e. They are not going to just put in something for the Argos and tell MLSE to take a hike.

[Pookie]

The city isn't investing in BMO beyond $10 million. Other governments were only $20 million. The majority of this was going to be MLSE.

The CFL never was investing in BMO.

MLSE is investing in BMO for the sake of

a) saving money long term in fixes

b) Leafs outdoor games

c) TFC

If the city doesn't take MLSE's money, the city would be on the hook for half of any necessary capital fixes to BMO. That''s estimated at about $15 million sometime in the next 5 years.

i.e. They are not going to just put in something for the Argos and tell MLSE to take a hike.

Estimates on capital fixes rise all the time. I have read estimates at 5-10M. Point is that if the city was prepared to invest $10m, they have enough to cover most of any capital fixes.

You are right. The CFL was never investing in BMO.

But is the CFL prepared to let the Argos fold?

If yes, then it's end of story.

If no, they have to play somewhere and Rogers Center is out.

So which is more likely? An inexpensive retrofit of BMO or a brand new stadium at 5-10x the cost?

If the CFL needs a team in Toronto, the Argos are coming.

[Cashcleaner]

This is part of the reason I said they are so important to the CFL, no matter how poorly they've been run the past decade. Having a team in Canada's biggest city, in the league of so few teams, is vitally important.

Another point to consider is how closely Hamilton's fortunes are tied with Toronto. The Ti-Cats and Argonauts have one of the oldest sports rivalries outside of college/university sports on the continent, and regular season games between those two clubs typically have noticeably higher attendance numbers compared to those against other opponents. Hamilton's attendance usually hovers around the league's overall average, but take away their biggest rival and the impact with be significant, and I doubt the new club in Ottawa will fill that competitive void.

And when you size up the situation as a whole, it's actually a pretty dire scenario for the league as a whole. Because if Toronto folds, the effect on Hamilton could be potentially catastrophic. And what if the RedBlacks don't pan out either? That's no much of a stretch when you consider they will be the capital's third franchise. Any sort of domino effect could be very damaging for the CFL.

[OgtheDim]

The Argos are likely showing up, but not in a scenario where the only work done on BMO fits them in.

MLSE has offered to take over the capital expenses on BMO for the next 30 years - the city is not going to let that one go.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Love to hear the deal is dead.

I don't care if it undies come July 8 I just love how difficult this is making the Argos move and sale.

[ensco]

Can someone explain exactly what the catastrophe that would befall humanity would be, if the Argos put some bleachers in at York and played in front of 12-15K?

[mook-life]

Get the cfl out of ontario and keep it in the west where people care

[Fort York Redcoat]

Can someone explain exactly what the catastrophe that would befall humanity would be, if the Argos put some bleachers in at York and played in front of 12-15K?

I'd settle for a blurb as to why the 2 parties can't agree since they were so damn close once before. I haven't heard many who would kibosh this idea as fans.

[Pookie]

Can someone explain exactly what the catastrophe that would befall humanity would be, if the Argos put some bleachers in at York and played in front of 12-15K?

Their average draw is well over that though so it would effectively be giving revenue away with the same payroll and operating costs.

[Cashcleaner]

^ What Pookie said. Over the last few years the Argos have typically drawn crowds of over 25,000 most games, and above 30,000 during the playoffs. It makes absolutely no sense to try to put them somewhere that can't accommodate their usual crowds, especially when the team needs as much revenue as it can get.

Economics 101.

[james]

Argos need 20k - 30k stadium. Sky Dome is kicking the Argos out in 2018? Argos really only have a few options.

1) move in spend 10 - 20 million to renovate and share BMO field with TFC. (or perhaps just let MLSE buy the Argos)
2) build a new stadium (unlikely, would probably cost a minimum $80 million, but could be as much as $200 million to get a good stadium built. And where would they build it? The never ending search for stadium location. And where would the Argos get that kind of money? unless MLSE buy them. But then why would MLSE need to build a new stadium when they are already renovating one at Exhibition, a great location!)
3) Team folds (unlikely, CFL wants a team in the biggest city in Canada. Argos are also one of, if not the oldest pro teams in Canada/USA.)
4) Argos convince sky dome and the Blue Jays to let them keep playing at the sky dome for a few more years, which really ends up being forever and the Argos never move out of the sky dome.

[ag futbol]

12-15k > 0

I think that's the practicality of it. Sure they'll be cutting revenue, but that would be temporary until they figure something out. Doesn't solve the problem, but doesn't make them homeless.

In the end, MLSE will buy and the city will break, probably around the time somewhere like Mississauga starts making noise about giving the team a sweet deal. City coucil has small man syndrome (can't stand to lose any teams) and MLSE wants a quasi monopoly on pro sports and reasonable control over venues. Having a "nice" venue somewhere in the 905 won't make anyone comfortable.

[james]

Meh.....negotiations. MLSE lets out through one of its known media vents that Braley wants too much money for their liking. Price will drop. MLSE don't need the Argos but Braley doesn't need the headache of a relocation.

Next penny to drop in all this is reno plans for BMO. Probably waiting on provincial money to announce. I'm thinking that comes out around July 8th.

McCowan's musing about no reno without the Argos is just him showing his ignorance. The stadium is falling apart - the city wants this. Its going ahead. He's thinking the stadium revolves around the Argos. Puck head until the end.

yup he is just another puck head. Wouldn't go as far as saying the stadium is falling apart tho. Its just already out dated compared to new stadiums in MLS. If the Argos didn't exist this deal and renovation would probably happen regardless at some point. (MLS really has changed in the last 5 years, there is some serious money being invested these days in the league). The only reason Argos are even involved in this is because they Argos need to play somewhere, and the Sky Dome wants to kick them out, where else would the Argos play? and how can MLSE and the Argos use this situation to benefit each other and increase profits and share costs??? and bingo, that is why the Argos are involved in this stadium renovation.

[prizby]

Why would BMO be off the table just because MLSE isn't buying them (yet)?

MLSE doesn't own BMO. The city does.

The current legal agreement has an Argos Clause that allows them to move in, at the expense of the owner.

The stadium was built with temporary stands to allow for CFL expansion.

If the City was willing to kick in to help MLSE expand, why wouldn't it kick in to help Braley move in?

Even if it didn't, Braley could likely find the funds with help from the CFL.

Now, it wouldn't be a $100M Reno. But moving temporary stands back some yards and filling in endzones with turf is probably well within the budget. I'd guess about 7-10M since the whole stadium was built for under $70m.

Think the Argos care about the TFC's fan experience? So what if the south end is yards away from the pitch. Aside from complaining, I don't see what MLSE could do to stop it as it currently stands.

Their only hope would seemingly be to push through stadium expansion and make it cost prohibitive to retrofit it.

Or, since this is all supposedly about the TFC fan experience, take their $100M and build their own stadium. But that isn't going to happen is it?

tfc are taking over 100% of operating expenses going forward; they could say in order to rejig for the Argos and screw the fans over, we have no interest in being 100% responsible adding more expenses to the city/argos

[prizby]

Estimates on capital fixes rise all the time. I have read estimates at 5-10M. Point is that if the city was prepared to invest $10m, they have enough to cover most of any capital fixes.

You are right. The CFL was never investing in BMO.

But is the CFL prepared to let the Argos fold?

If yes, then it's end of story.

If no, they have to play somewhere and Rogers Center is out.

So which is more likely? An inexpensive retrofit of BMO or a brand new stadium at 5-10x the cost?

If the CFL needs a team in Toronto, the Argos are coming.

examples of where you have read 5-10M; I have seen capital expenses at 30 with the city taking half...that's it

[Qman]

Argos need 20k - 30k stadium. Sky Dome is kicking the Argos out in 2018? Argos really only have a few options.

1) move in spend 10 - 20 million to renovate and share BMO field with TFC. (or perhaps just let MLSE buy the Argos)
2) build a new stadium (unlikely, would probably cost a minimum $80 million, but could be as much as $200 million to get a good stadium built. And where would they build it? The never ending search for stadium location. And where would the Argos get that kind of money? unless MLSE buy them. But then why would MLSE need to build a new stadium when they are already renovating one at Exhibition, a great location!)
3) Team folds (unlikely, CFL wants a team in the biggest city in Canada. Argos are also one of, if not the oldest pro teams in Canada/USA.)
4) Argos convince sky dome and the Blue Jays to let them keep playing at the sky dome for a few more years, which really ends up being forever and the Argos never move out of the sky dome.

1) all this is an act for MLSE and the Argos to squeeze out as much public money they can for the BMO upgrade. Only reason Argos didn't move to BMO first place is its a glorified high school stadium built for a bargain basement $60million with a massive rent, and the blue jays offered free rent for 5 years plus options. I can't wait for the roof and upgrades to BMO to make it a real professional stadium. Like Kansas city, winnipeg, etc.
2) braley has a stadium design ready to go as part of a commercial/residential development in Markham/Vaughn. The stadium is paid by the developer (not braley although he might be part of the development group) funded like exactly the same as the development in Ottawa in Landsdowne park. The stadium was to have a bubble in the wintertime for public use as well as concerts and events in summertime. This is one of the reasons MLSE stepped-in, is they don't want stadium competition. Thats why MLSE needs to change the PPP structure at BMO since the rent is a joke (with massive payments to city workers) and they can't hold concerts and events their under current economics.
3) The argos will never fold. They get 25,000 a game and over 700,000-900,000 a game on TV. Believe its or not, they will make more the Reds this year (or should I say lose less)
4) Argo want out of the skydome as bad as the bluejays was grass. Its terrible place to watch a game. Remember the Liverpool game/CCL game against beckham. horrible sitelines.

[ensco]

^ What Pookie said. Over the last few years the Argos have typically drawn crowds of over 25,000 most games, and above 30,000 during the playoffs. It makes absolutely no sense to try to put them somewhere that can't accommodate their usual crowds, especially when the team needs as much revenue as it can get.

Economics 101.


I know a lot of restaurants that would do a lot better if only the city would build them a big nice home.

Economics 101 says that if you own a business that can support 30,000 people, go build yourself a stadium that seats 30,000 and leave the taxpayers alone.

[Richard]

^^^ That school of thought doesn't exist anymore in sports, at least not in places where corporate welfare is so readily available.

[jloome]

Can someone explain exactly what the catastrophe that would befall humanity would be, if the Argos put some bleachers in at York and played in front of 12-15K?

Basically doing that helped Montreal a ticket again.

[james]

Basically doing that helped Montreal a ticket again.

ya but no. 12-15k is to small. They really need a minimum 20k. Montreal Alouettes went from a stadium that was way to big for CFL with over 50k capcaity (much like the Sky Dome) to a smaller intimate McGill stadium (much like BMO field), but I think when they moved in to McGill it was still at least 18k-20k. And more recently have spent $30million on renovations to boost capacity to 25k. Smaller and intimate stadiums are good, but a York stadium of 12-15k stadium is just to small.

[TFC07]

Argos average 30K with only 3500 SSH? Sorry, but I highly doubt Argos have that big walk up crowd.

Argos attendance has been declining yearly and their SSH base reflects on that.

Yesterday, CFL commissioner was on Sportsnet 590 and said the league will find another ways to come up with money (either CFL owners will pitch in or get some sponsors to chip in) to get Argos into BMO field. Also, CFL commissioner didn't deny 3500 SSH claim and how Argos are in the decline. However, CFL commish said Argos will never fold because CFL needs a team in GTA to attract corporate sponsors.

So pretty much, CFL hoping playing in smaller stadium will save the Argos since they run out of ideas how to get Argos relevant and profitable in Toronto. Also, CFL hope Argos playing at BMO field will attract younger crowd (which pretty much confirms they're not popular with typical sports demographic that will be more loyal to their sport teams) .

Hate him or love him, but McCown is pretty dead on with his sources.

[Beach_Red]

Argos average 30K with only 3500 SSH? Sorry, but I highly doubt Argos have that big walk up crowd.

Argos attendance has been declining yearly and their SSH base reflects on that.

Yesterday, CFL commissioner was on Sportsnet 590 and said the league will find another ways to come up with money (either CFL owners will pitch in or get some sponsors to chip in) to get Argos into BMO field. Also, CFL commissioner didn't deny 3500 SSH claim and how Argos are in the decline. However, CFL commish said Argos will never fold because CFL needs a team in GTA to attract corporate sponsors.

So pretty much, CFL hoping playing in smaller stadium will save the Argos since they run out of ideas how to get Argos relevant and profitable in Toronto. Also, CFL hope Argos playing at BMO field will attract younger crowd (which pretty much confirms they're not popular with typical sports demographic that will be more loyal to their sport teams) .

Hate him or love him, but McCown is pretty dead on with his sources.

Yes, it's complicated with a lot of agendas at work. And, of course, no one wants to pay. But the CFL needs the Argos, TSN needs the CFL, Bell need the Canadian Content... lots of games of chicken going on right now. And the CFL have plenty of politically-connected people.

[TFC07]

Yes, it's complicated with a lot of agendas at work. And, of course, no one wants to pay. But the CFL needs the Argos, TSN needs the CFL, Bell need the Canadian Content... lots of games of chicken going on right now. And the CFL have plenty of politically-connected people.

I am surprised Bell didn't buy Argos on their own. I think they will be ideal owner for Argos, but I guess lack of stadium is what preventing anyone buying Argos.

Also, is it me or does CFL come off really desperate to try to get MLSE owning Argos?

[OgtheDim]

The CFL has been looking for ownership of the Argos since Cynammon & Sokalwaski indicated they wanted to sell.

Heck, the Argos have had unstable ownership since the 70`s. MLSE would, in theory, be the most stable ownership group east of the Green Riders.

[Beach_Red]

I am surprised Bell didn't buy Argos on their own. I think they will be ideal owner for Argos, but I guess lack of stadium is what preventing anyone buying Argos.

Also, is it me or does CFL come off really desperate to try to get MLSE owning Argos?

It's hard to know what's going on behind the scenes. Bell's main interest is making sure the federal government keeps foreign competition (American, really) out of the Canada so they play the game.

Someone's going to blink soon. Who knows, maybe the Argos will be playing out of Verizon Stadium in Mississauga...

[Haddy]

I am surprised Bell didn't buy Argos on their own. I think they will be ideal owner for Argos, but I guess lack of stadium is what preventing anyone buying Argos.

Also, is it me or does CFL come off really desperate to try to get MLSE owning Argos?

Can Bell own a CFL team outright? I mean, if they are the exclusive broadcaster for the league, I would be very concerned about a conflict of interest.

[TFC07]

Can Bell own a CFL team outright? I mean, if they are the exclusive broadcaster for the league, I would be very concerned about a conflict of interest.

This is league where 2 out of 9 teams are owned by same guy lol

Plus, Bell partly owns MLSE which CFL trying to get to own Argos.

Point is: conflict of interest isn't issue for CFL.

[Beach_Red]

This is league where 2 out of 9 teams are owned by same guy lol

Plus, Bell partly owns MLSE which CFL trying to get to own Argos.

Point is: conflict of interest isn't issue for CFL.

Conflict of interest isn't an issue in Canada. Certainly not for Bell, how long did it take them to get the Astral take-over ruling changed?

This whole thing is an issue that will be resolved on the dock of a very expensive cottage....

[james]

The CFL has been looking for ownership of the Argos since Cynammon & Sokalwaski indicated they wanted to sell.

Heck, the Argos have had unstable ownership since the 70`s. MLSE would, in theory, be the most stable ownership group east of the Green Riders.

The Argos also have had some shitty stadiums since they moved out of Varsity stadium in 1958 to Exhibition. well Exhibition was worse for the Blue Jays, but still from pictures, was never a pretty stadium. And then moved to Sky Dome in 1989, which was better suited for the Blue Jays then the Argos, with some pretty bad site lines and over sized for CFL. Argos have a history of ownership and ugly stadiums.

[tfcleeds]

The Argos also have had some shitty stadiums since they moved out of Varsity stadium in 1958 to Exhibition. well Exhibition was worse for the Blue Jays, but still from pictures, was never a pretty stadium. And then moved to Sky Dome in 1989, which was better suited for the Blue Jays then the Argos, with some pretty bad site lines and over sized for CFL. Argos have a history of ownership and ugly stadiums.

I just find it ironic that the impetus for the Rogers Centre being built in the first place was the horrible Grey Cup conditions at Exhibition Stadium in 1982. "We need a domed stadium!" everyone chanted in unison (and this was when the Argos still were arguably a bigger team than the Blue Jays, a situation which was to rapidly change over the following years). Now the Argos want to go back to being at the mercy of the elements. Go figure.

[james]

I just find it ironic that the impetus for the Rogers Centre being built in the first place was the horrible Grey Cup conditions at Exhibition Stadium in 1982. "We need a domed stadium!" everyone chanted in unison (and this was when the Argos still were arguably a bigger team than the Blue Jays, a situation which was to rapidly change over the following years). Now the Argos want to go back to being at the mercy of the elements. Go figure.

funny ya, if Argos kept playing at Exhibition it might of been better for them in the long run. Exhibition was ugly, but they could of had there own stadium, and Exhibition had potential to be a nice stadium, it just needed renovation, maybe knocking down a stand or 2 and rebuilding. The other thing also was 1982 Dome stadiums were in there prime, but shortly after the Dome was built the retro ball parks became the new hit with stadiums. Dome was a marval at its time, but the timing was bad. Its only about 25 years old and yet the sky dome is already way out of date. Had they built a retro style park instead, it would still be in fashion today!

[Qman]

This is league where 2 out of 9 teams are owned by same guy lol

Plus, Bell partly owns MLSE which CFL trying to get to own Argos.

Point is: conflict of interest isn't issue for CFL.


kinda like a LA football club folding before the season and the league having to come in and take them over. Conflict of interest ... uhm who gets the next DP that comes into the league ... uhm chivas maybe

[james]

This is league where 2 out of 9 teams are owned by same guy lol

Plus, Bell partly owns MLSE which CFL trying to get to own Argos.

Point is: conflict of interest isn't issue for CFL.

Didn't one guy or 2 different guys own at least 2 different clubs in MLS at one point to save them from folding and help save the league? is that still going on today or are those days done?

[Pookie]

kinda like a LA football club folding before the season and the league having to come in and take them over. Conflict of interest ... uhm who gets the next DP that comes into the league ... uhm chivas maybe

The league technically owns all the teams.

It holds all the player contracts. And approves or in the case of Olaf Melberg, disapproves them.

And through Board decisions (each team operator has a seat) they collectively decide on issues that impact every club.

It's in their collective interests for the league to be successful not teams.

I wouldn't be worried about special treatment for Chivas. Particularly when the league allowed Bradley to avoid MLS Allocation since he was a "DP of a certain threshold as determined by the league."

The league will ensure the league's success. If that means helping Chivas with funds beyond what it provides other teams it will.

[Beach_Red]

The league technically owns all the teams.

It holds all the player contracts. And approves or in the case of Olaf Melberg, disapproves them.

And through Board decisions (each team operator has a seat) they collectively decide on issues that impact every club.

It's in their collective interests for the league to be successful not teams.

I wouldn't be worried about special treatment for Chivas. Particularly when the league allowed Bradley to avoid MLS Allocation since he was a "DP of a certain threshold as determined by the league."

The league will ensure the league's success. If that means helping Chivas with funds beyond what it provides other teams it will.

This makes sense. People point out often that in NASL the Toronto Blizzard and a couple of other teams were successful but folded along with the rest of the league. The NFL is centrally-run so even teams in the smallest markets like Green Bay can be successful.

It probably would have been impossible to get investors into a league with a different structure.

[james]

This makes sense. People point out often that in NASL the Toronto Blizzard and a couple of other teams were successful but folded along with the rest of the league. The NFL is centrally-run so even teams in the smallest markets like Green Bay can be successful.

It probably would have been impossible to get investors into a league with a different structure.

I think Green Bay was a different situation again. Weren't they owned, or at least at some point by many fans who invested in the team?