Payne Re-appraisal

[ensco]

Urruti on 5 goals now. Laba is a star.

I am still bothered by the treatment Payne got from the team, and from these boards. He got ripped. All kinds of innuendo. Led by Nelsen first and foremost. It's still going on, that Sports Business Journal story from a couple of days ago quoting the ticket manager darkly going on about how terrible things were when he got here.

Leiweke had the right to take him out. But he could have just bought Bradley and Defoe, and otherwise left him alone.

Firing him is not looking very smart at all.

[cochrdoc]

I do not think Payne`s way of developing this team is any worst of a job that is going on now.Both Laba and Urruti are establishing themselves in this league.Gilberto is struggling and Bradley fell on their lap.We still have major weaknesses that have not been dealt with.It would have been interesting to see who Payne would have brought in.Nelson needs to start bringing this team along.There are to many excuses

[Yohan]

It's obvious that Payne wanted total control over TFC and Tim L wanted someone who'll do what he says. 2 alpha males with big egos butting heads. Never was going to work out.

[barticusz]

Would Urruti have the same service that he gets in Portland?

No he wouldn't.

[ManUtd4ever]

It was a clash of egos and philosophy.

Given his tenure in the league, Payne wasn't going to be anybody's yes man. He wanted to take the fiscally responsible, slow and steady route to building the team by sticking with youth and using the available DP slots on young imports with potential such as Urruti and Laba.

Conversely, Leiweke wanted to turn us into Hollywood North and reverse the team's fortunes overnight by spending unprecedented amounts of money in the off season and acquiring marquee names.

[Pookie]

It was a clash of egos and philosophy.

Given his tenure in the league, Payne wasn't going to be anybody's yes man. He wanted to take the fiscally responsible, slow and steady route to building the team by sticking with youth and using the available DP slots on young imports with potential such as Urruti and Laba.

Conversely, Leiweke wanted to turn us into Hollywood North and reverse the team's fortunes overnight by spending unprecedented amounts of money in the off season and acquiring marquee names.


I'm going to copy off your page here and say "yep"

The only challenge that I would give with respect to Payne's short tenure was having 2 first round draft picks in the 2013 entry draft and trading down… and down… to get Welshman who was released this year.

Probably will never know the full story on that as allocation money was received but Vancouver used the pick on Mennah, a Generation Adidas player with no budget charge, who would look good in Red right about now. I would have thought that a slow and steady youth movement would have wanted to add a player like that.

[Tony Santiago]

This seems like a strange thread. Our team is far better than we were last year. The record and team performances speak for themselves. Why start a thread like this?

Bradley is an upgrade over Laba, as good as a player as Laba is. Urruti didn't look good with us, sort of like Gilberto now. It takes some time to adjust to a new league. Gilberto will adjust and start putting some balls in the net. He is still a quality player who back tracks and runs hard. I know he wasn't signed to run around, but writing him off and comparing him to Urruti is the kind of thinking that had Urruti shipped out right away.

Payne might have been okay, but he wasn't Leiweke's guy. It's not like we have gotten worse...we've improved. Why are we supposed to care about Kevin Payne when we have a big spending, knowledgeable GM in place now and our team has improved?

[Pookie]

We haven't really improved relative to other years though. 2013, yes. Absolutely.

As far as Urutti, an interesting thing to imagine is what Bradley-Laba-Urutti would look like as a core. A very young, usually healthy, group that could play together for the better part of a decade. Add 4-5 first round draft picks next year and in 2-3 years this team would be something completely different.

[ag futbol]

Would Urruti have the same service that he gets in Portland?

No he wouldn't.
Shouldn't the point be to get your strikers service? Especially if you have someone who can put the ball in the back of the net. Our do-it-yourself project going forward continues to be underwhelming. Yeah Urruti gets better service in Portland but TFC should be working towards providing a similar platform for their front players.

As far as Payne goes, I appreciate his work (certainly not a liability) but it had limitations. Nelsen wasn't the right choice for his vision, they never saw eye to eye tactically. The draft work was dubious and really draws into question their professionalism. This year they did much better than when Payne called the shots.

Either way, the biggest issue in the management department for TFC continues to be that we have no seasoned football person anywhere. It's a circus ringmaster, a dorky lawyer, and a former player supported by über light weight staff. For what this organization wants to pull off it is necessary to have someone really seasoned in the sport around. Whether that's in the president, coach, or GM spot I don't particularly care, but give us someone.

[ensco]

This seems like a strange thread. Our team is far better than we were last year. The record and team performances speak for themselves. Why start a thread like this?

Bradley is an upgrade over Laba, as good as a player as Laba is. Urruti didn't look good with us, sort of like Gilberto now. It takes some time to adjust to a new league. Gilberto will adjust and start putting some balls in the net. He is still a quality player who back tracks and runs hard. I know he wasn't signed to run around, but writing him off and comparing him to Urruti is the kind of thinking that had Urruti shipped out right away.

Payne might have been okay, but he wasn't Leiweke's guy. It's not like we have gotten worse...we've improved. Why are we supposed to care about Kevin Payne when we have a big spending, knowledgeable GM in place now and our team has improved?

I think very few people think we are "far better". If you do, you are entitled to your view. People who feel this way seem to be basing it on points. We have the same number of points, and look less like a team, than Preki's 2010 team did. That says different things to different people I guess.

The question isn't "are we better" (because we obviously are with Bradley and Defoe), but "are we better than we would have been if we had kept Payne"?

Obviously no one can say what would have happened ... but I think the answer is "no".

Mostly because what Payne was doing (bringing in good MLS caliber talent at MLS prices) is more long-term sustainable than bringing in $6M/year players. We are one bad board meeting away from Leiweke being gone and the next guy selling off Defoe and Bradley.

Payne was building something that the next guy could have built on (but chose not to). You won't be able to say that about Leiweke.

I agree with the post above that the 2013 draft turned out horribly is a stain on Payne's record btw. Although he may have needed that allocation dough for Urruti and/or Laba, not sure.

Overall, I'd far rather have Urruti/Laba/Bekker instead of Gilberto/Dike/Hagglund, and I like what I have seen so far from Hagglund. I'd also still have millions in my pocket to spend this summer, something that is going to matter one of these days to someone. (I recognize that we don't yet know how the Laba trade worked, but I have learned not to expect much in these circumstances)

[reggie]

why don't we jus support the club we have now,what is the point,if that if this,bullshit.

[ExiledRed]

why don't we jus support the club we have now,what is the point,if that if this,bullshit.

The point is to populate a discussion board with opinions, analysis, and you know... discourse.

I think we can do this while we are supporting the club and that one is not exclusive of the other.

[Tony Santiago]

I think very few people think we are "far better". If you do, you are entitled to your view. People who feel this way seem to be basing it on points. We have the same number of points, and look less like a team, than Preki's 2010 team did. That says different things to different people I guess.

The question isn't "are we better" (because we obviously are with Bradley and Defoe), but "are we better than we would have been if we had kept Payne"?

Obviously no one can say what would have happened ... but I think the answer is "no".

Mostly because what Payne was doing (bringing in good MLS caliber talent at MLS prices) is more long-term sustainable than bringing in $6M/year players. We are one bad board meeting away from Leiweke being gone and the next guy selling off Defoe and Bradley.

Payne was building something that the next guy could have built on (but chose not to). You won't be able to say that about Leiweke.

I agree with the post above that the 2013 draft turned out horribly is a stain on Payne's record btw. Although he may have needed that allocation dough for Urruti and/or Laba, not sure.

Overall, I'd far rather have Urruti/Laba/Bekker instead of Gilberto/Dike/Hagglund, and I like what I have seen so far from Hagglund. I'd also still have millions in my pocket to spend this summer, something that is going to matter one of these days to someone. (I recognize that we don't yet know how the Laba trade worked, but I have learned not to expect much in these circumstances)

Dike was performing well before he got hurt. It's hard to fault a guy for having a serious injury. We still have Bekker. Hagglund is a good young player and what we needed. He has given us some depth at CB that was very lacking. I don't understand the comparison to Laba, Urruti and Bekker.

We were a team that collapsed routinely. Now we are a team that guts out results and is capable of getting late goals and points on the road. That's why I think we are far better.

Prekki is so far gone. I don't even think about Prekki. That's like comparing this team to Chris Cummins squad.

Personally I was sick of waiting for the development of players. There is no certainty in that. You can develop players like we are doing, but clearly we are a big money team. You can spend big while developing talent. I'm not sure why you claim that under Leiweke we won't develop players. We're doing that and playing a guy like Henry who is still developing.

I think a player like Jackson has been very underrated and has added quality depth, as has Morrow. We have also had contributions from players like Issy (still confused about that trade, but time will tell) and Moore. It's not like it has been a comedy of errors after Payne left.

Obviously one is entitled to their opinion, but I'm just surprised to see Kevin Payne's name appear longingly while we are having a pretty good season so far.

[jloome]

Dike was performing well before he got hurt. It's hard to fault a guy for having a serious injury. We still have Bekker. Hagglund is a good young player and what we needed. He has given us some depth at CB that was very lacking. I don't understand the comparison to Laba, Urruti and Bekker.

We were a team that collapsed routinely. Now we are a team that guts out results and is capable of getting late goals and points on the road. That's why I think we are far better.

Prekki is so far gone. I don't even think about Prekki. That's like comparing this team to Chris Cummins squad.

Personally I was sick of waiting for the development of players. There is no certainty in that. You can develop players like we are doing, but clearly we are a big money team. You can spend big while developing talent. I'm not sure why you claim that under Leiweke we won't develop players. We're doing that and playing a guy like Henry who is still developing.

I think a player like Jackson has been very underrated and has added quality depth, as has Morrow. We have also had contributions from players like Issy (still confused about that trade, but time will tell) and Moore. It's not like it has been a comedy of errors after Payne left.

Obviously one is entitled to their opinion, but I'm just surprised to see Kevin Payne's name appear longingly while we are having a pretty good season so far.

I think we're having the wrong debate. Kevin Payne can't affect our club any more; he also came with a rep of recent failure in D.C. that stretched back for several years, and the consensus there was that he was playing in MLS 1.0

His draft was awful; his coach's start was awful and from what I've seen so far, hasn't gotten much better under a new boss. He chose Laba, but Laba was the captain of Argentinos Junior and hardly an unknown commodity. Urruti may come good, but he's hardly of Defoe quality (or DP, if you ask me).

To me, we have a GM now who can build a decent squad in Tim B, and we've acquired some better players; but the improvement is slow, laborious and tactically somewhat inept. I still hate that we're Ryan Nelsen's training program.

[ensco]

why don't we jus support the club we have now,what is the point,if that if this,bullshit.

I'm trying to see this the way Leiweke's bosses see this.

If that isn't interesting to you, just pass on by. jeez.

[reggie]

I support the team...win or lose,its a game,entertainment,why do care about the money the owners..blah,blah, blah.
I watch the game on the pitch,not in TL private box.

[ensco]

I support the team...win or lose,its a game,entertainment,why do care about the money the owners..blah,blah, blah.
I watch the game on the pitch,not in TL private box.

I don't have the time, or the crayons, to explain this to you.

[ag futbol]

Dike was performing well before he got hurt. It's hard to fault a guy for having a serious injury.
He's always had injury issues. I don't blame the player, but management had to know it was a calculated risk to have him as a backup.

[starter]

Portland was very enthusiastic for the deal, which should have been a red flag to anybody, but RN.

[reggie]

no worries...maybe you can explain it in cartoon form...if and when we win something,cya on the bandwagon...im done with this negative crap..re Ensco/pookie..it would be to nice to actually talk futbol once in a while..

[prizby]

Urruti on 5 goals now. Laba is a star.

I am still bothered by the treatment Payne got from the team, and from these boards. He got ripped. All kinds of innuendo. Led by Nelsen first and foremost. It's still going on, that Sports Business Journal story from a couple of days ago quoting the ticket manager darkly going on about how terrible things were when he got here.

Leiweke had the right to take him out. But he could have just bought Bradley and Defoe, and otherwise left him alone.

Firing him is not looking very smart at all.

he wanted to sign Diego Forlan to a 3 year contract

[jloome]

no worries...maybe you can explain it in cartoon form...if and when we win something,cya on the bandwagon...im done with this negative crap..re Ensco/pookie..it would be to nice to actually talk futbol once in a while..

Bye bye now.

I for one feel shocked, nay stunned, at the loss of such a scintillating contribution.

Dike definitely has joint and tendon issues; he's a big guy, like Gordon or Eric Hassli. They don't seem to fare well in this league (or maybe it's just a size/weight thing.) OBW was a pretty big, strong guy, too, and his knees didn't last long.)

[Pookie]

^ I'm still trying to figure out what is negative about taking a position that says don't fire the coach or don't sh*t on our young players… give them time because they aren't there yet.

Maybe just cranky that the "Bloody Big Deal" looks more and more like it could be the "Bloody Same Thing?"

[gate7]

We haven't really improved relative to other years though. 2013, yes. Absolutely.

As far as Urutti, an interesting thing to imagine is what Bradley-Laba-Urutti would look like as a core. A very young, usually healthy, group that could play together for the better part of a decade. Add 4-5 first round draft picks next year and in 2-3 years this team would be something completely different.


I like this post... 100%

[gate7]

Is Bradley an improvement over Laba? Arguably yes. BUT .....we didn't need a replacement for Laba we needed young quality alongside Laba such as Bradley.

[ensco]

he wanted to sign Diego Forlan to a 3 year contract

Was that really so dumb? I'd like to know what that deal was (compared to paying $40M for Defoe).

[habstfc]

Payne is still unemployed so that should tell you something as well. I liked Payne and what he was trying to do but TL was brought in and didn't share the same vision so let Payne go, happens all the time in the corporate world. I think we are far better than if we had Laba/urruti. Every game is sold out this season sponsorship deals way up, good business decisions all round.

[ensco]

Payne is still unemployed so that should tell you something as well. I liked Payne and what he was trying to do but TL was brought in and didn't share the same vision so let Payne go, happens all the time in the corporate world. I think we are far better than if we had Laba/urruti. Every game is sold out this season sponsorship deals way up, good business decisions all round.

He was 6 months into a multi year big bucks deal. Why get another job?

[ensco]

I think we're having the wrong debate. Kevin Payne can't affect our club any more; he also came with a rep of recent failure in D.C. that stretched back for several years, and the consensus there was that he was playing in MLS 1.0

His draft was awful; his coach's start was awful and from what I've seen so far, hasn't gotten much better under a new boss. He chose Laba, but Laba was the captain of Argentinos Junior and hardly an unknown commodity. Urruti may come good, but he's hardly of Defoe quality (or DP, if you ask me).

To me, we have a GM now who can build a decent squad in Tim B, and we've acquired some better players; but the improvement is slow, laborious and tactically somewhat inept. I still hate that we're Ryan Nelsen's training program.

The MLS 1.0 thing is unfair, at least re TFC. Urruti and Laba are how MLS 2.0 works.

The only thing MLS 1.0 about Payne's TFC stint was Nelsen and his 4-4-2 hoofball, and that is literally the only asset from Payne's stint that Leiweke kept.

[notthesun]

Isn't this the guy we all berated for signing old Europeans after he specifically said he wouldn't? For completely bungling the draft? The guy we crucified for saying "get used to it"? The guy who announced Tal Ben Haim's signing when he hadn't signed a thing? The guy who signed Julio Cesar (no, not that one) from SKC only for him to not play a game? The guy who picked up Braun on 125k (who's now in USL Pro), the guy who signed Elmer on 115k for him to never play? The guy who traded Plata, who's now killing it with RSL, for peanuts? The guy who traded Luis Silva, the kind of better-than-average core domestic player everyone always stresses we need more of, for nothing? This is the guy?

My oh my how times change. This thread rubs me the wrong way. As if the current regime has already been declared a failure. 9 games into the season and we want to go back? No thanks, not for me.

[molenshtain]

Isn't this the guy we all berated for signing old Europeans after he specifically said he wouldn't? For completely bungling the draft? The guy we crucified for saying "get used to it"? The guy who announced Tal Ben Haim's signing when he hadn't signed a thing? The guy who signed Julio Cesar (no, not that one) from SKC only for him to not play a game? The guy who picked up Braun on 125k (who's now in USL Pro), the guy who signed Elmer on 115k for him to never play? The guy who traded Luis Silva, the kind of better-than-average core domestic player everyone always stresses we need more of, for nothing? This is the guy?

My oh my how times change. This thread rubs me the wrong way. As if the current regime has already been declared a failure. 9 games into the season and we want to go back? No thanks, not for me.

Amen. I'd actually completely forgotten about Elmer.*sigh*

...except for the Silva bit.Silva didn't actually do anything well and we got allocation that allowed us room to make moves in the off-season, great trade.

[Tony Santiago]

Isn't this the guy we all berated for signing old Europeans after he specifically said he wouldn't? For completely bungling the draft? The guy we crucified for saying "get used to it"? The guy who announced Tal Ben Haim's signing when he hadn't signed a thing? The guy who signed Julio Cesar (no, not that one) from SKC only for him to not play a game? The guy who picked up Braun on 125k (who's now in USL Pro), the guy who signed Elmer on 115k for him to never play? The guy who traded Plata, who's now killing it with RSL, for peanuts? The guy who traded Luis Silva, the kind of better-than-average core domestic player everyone always stresses we need more of, for nothing? This is the guy?

My oh my how times change. This thread rubs me the wrong way. As if the current regime has already been declared a failure. 9 games into the season and we want to go back? No thanks, not for me.

Exactly. People are seriously mocking the "Bloody Big Deal" thing? Defoe has been great, and has contributed to wins and a renewed enthusiasm in BMO. How in the world are people going to criticize Defoe's signing at this point? People will obviously never be satisfied.

Honestly, what in the world are people talking about on this thread? Talk about looking back through rose coloured glasses. The thing is, I don't understand why anyone is looking back at all. I guess gutting out a tough road point with a 10 man squad against the MLS champs is unacceptable to some.

Our team is better. The numbers say so, and anyone who watches the team would say so. How is this even a debate?

[MightyDM]

We haven't really improved relative to other years though. 2013, yes. Absolutely.

As far as Urutti, an interesting thing to imagine is what Bradley-Laba-Urutti would look like as a core. A very young, usually healthy, group that could play together for the better part of a decade. Add 4-5 first round draft picks next year and in 2-3 years this team would be something completely different.

You cannot assume Bradeley would have come here if Defoe had not first.

Conversley, you can imagine what we would look like if we had traded Gilberto instead of Laba, and it would be Bloody good.

[Tony Santiago]

He was 6 months into a multi year big bucks deal. Why get another job?

Don't argue to save face. You're making a silly point here as a counter to a good point habstfc made.

[pdubs]

Isn't this the guy we all berated for signing old Europeans after he specifically said he wouldn't? For completely bungling the draft? The guy we crucified for saying "get used to it"? The guy who announced Tal Ben Haim's signing when he hadn't signed a thing? The guy who signed Julio Cesar (no, not that one) from SKC only for him to not play a game? The guy who picked up Braun on 125k (who's now in USL Pro), the guy who signed Elmer on 115k for him to never play? The guy who traded Plata, who's now killing it with RSL, for peanuts? The guy who traded Luis Silva, the kind of better-than-average core domestic player everyone always stresses we need more of, for nothing? This is the guy?

My oh my how times change. This thread rubs me the wrong way. As if the current regime has already been declared a failure. 9 games into the season and we want to go back? No thanks, not for me.

agree with all of this

[reggie]

Bye bye now.

I for one feel shocked, nay stunned, at the loss of such a scintillating contribution.

Dike definitely has joint and tendon issues; he's a big guy, like Gordon or Eric Hassli. They don't seem to fare well in this league (or maybe it's just a size/weight thing.) OBW was a pretty big, strong guy, too, and his knees didn't last long.)

how is yr team in Edmonton doing??

[ensco]

Don't argue to save face. You're making a silly point here as a counter to a good point habstfc made.

Listen to me. Enough. Whoever you are: do not police me.

I made an equally valid point. None of us know why Payne hasn't been hired somewhere else, either explanation is reasonable. That is obvious. Take your gratuitous insults elsewhere.

[ensco]

Isn't this the guy we all berated for signing old Europeans after he specifically said he wouldn't? For completely bungling the draft? The guy we crucified for saying "get used to it"? The guy who announced Tal Ben Haim's signing when he hadn't signed a thing? The guy who signed Julio Cesar (no, not that one) from SKC only for him to not play a game? The guy who picked up Braun on 125k (who's now in USL Pro), the guy who signed Elmer on 115k for him to never play? The guy who traded Plata, who's now killing it with RSL, for peanuts? The guy who traded Luis Silva, the kind of better-than-average core domestic player everyone always stresses we need more of, for nothing? This is the guy?

My oh my how times change. This thread rubs me the wrong way. As if the current regime has already been declared a failure. 9 games into the season and we want to go back? No thanks, not for me.

Most of these are small beer and/or there are factual inaccuracies, and aren't worth discussing .... but the Silva thing is. You are right about that. That was a big deal, and very stupid. That doesn't help my argument.

[molenshtain]

Can somoene explain to me what Silva's value was/is? I don't get it. What's his game? what's he actually good at?

[ensco]

Can somoene explain to me what Silva's value was/is? I don't get it. What's his game? what's he actually good at?

Domestic. Average to maybe slightly better than average AM or striker. Can distribute and finish. Will never go to Europe. He will do a decent job for 5-7 years in this league. for the league average salary.

These guys are surprisingly hard to find.

[reggie]

at this point I just want tfc to put together a winning team,i don't care how they do it,and maybe then it will put a lid on these armchair quarterbacks scholars with there numbers and if and buts...JUS WIN BABY:scarf:

[Pookie]

Exactly. People are seriously mocking the "Bloody Big Deal" thing? Defoe has been great, and has contributed to wins and a renewed enthusiasm in BMO. How in the world are people going to criticize Defoe's signing at this point?

Now isn't the point when you criticize it. As you point out, he has won us games. Imagine the record if he wasn't here?

The point in time when you can criticize it is 2 years from now. When Urutti is entering his mid-twenties and Defoe has a year left on his contract with hopefully at least a year left in his knees and hamstrings. The risk in bringing in a big name for the sake of a big name will become apparent as you contemplate that and whether you can stomach the double digit percent increases in your ticket prices.

That would be an appropriate time to revisit this.

For now, Defoe has got us a record a good as Preki's through 9 games. I agree with you. He has significantly contributed to this mediocre record. ;)

[reggie]

Do u actually cheer when defoe scores,or do u cheer when urutti scores for Portland??

[notthesun]

Most of these are small beer and/or there are factual inaccuracies, and aren't worth discussing

I disagree. You think we'd be better off with Payne, you get all of him. Not just Urruti and Laba. Can't pick out the good from the bad.

In the same way, with him gone we don't only have Leiweke, we have Bezbatchenko. Payne held two titles but you have yet to mention the guy who took over one of them. Curious.

[molenshtain]

Domestic. Average to maybe slightly better than average AM or striker. Will never go to Europe. He will do a decent job for 5-7 years in this league.

These guys are surprisingly hard to find.

See, I'd debate that he's actually even average. He has almost no eye for a pass, has a very inconsistent first touch, can't beat a man if his like depended on it because he's as slow as fucking molasses and can't dribble. He's average off the ball and doesn't really track back. He'd come up with a moment of brilliance every once in a while but didn't really justify his being our starting AM. It depends on the amount of allocation we got. If Payne gave him up for money worth a back-up player then I'd agree it was a pointless move. But seeing as he was one of the very, very few to make it through the Winter/Mariner era with a pretty good reputation around the league I'd imagine that, if Payne was smart, He would have sold high and gotten more value for him then he was worth.

Obviously We'll never know. So I guess this is a pointless discussion. Still, I'm confounded by the good will Silva receives here. He had one purple patch the whole time he was here and it was when we went 4-4-2 in Mariner's first ten games. then it all went to shit. Osorio is twice the player Silva is but doesn't get nearly the same amount of respect.

[MightyDM]

at this point I just want tfc to put together a winning team,i don't care how they do it,and maybe then it will put a lid on these armchair quarterbacks scholars with there numbers and if and buts...JUS WIN BABY:scarf:

If gutting out a point with ten men against the league champions isn't going to shut them up, nothing will. But keep posting - many of us like your positive attitude.

[ensco]

I disagree. You think we'd be better off with Payne, you get all of him. Not just Urruti and Laba. Can't pick out the good from the bad.

In the same way, with him gone we don't only have Leiweke, we have Bezbatchenko. Payne held two titles but you have yet to mention the guy who took over one of them. Curious.

Well, Bez looks like a decent guy, but Leiweke is the GM. Bez was 3 years removed from whatever it is second year trainees in big law firms do (photocopying all night?) when he got this job.

I don't really know who evaluates talent right now. Nelsen I'd guess, he certainly was the guy talking about how much he wanted Warner.

[reggie]

I hv nothing against these guys,they are fellow tfc fans I think. lol I will buy them a beer if we ever meet,and I like there passion for ther points.

[ensco]

Osorio is twice the player Silva is doesn't get nearly the same amount of respect.

That's not true. You, me, everyone would go crazy if Osorio were sold for allocation.

[ensco]

I hv nothing against these guys,they are fellow tfc fans I think. lol I will buy them a beer if we ever meet,and I like there passion for ther points.

We agree! Cheers.

[Pookie]

Do u actually cheer when defoe scores,or do u cheer when urutti scores for Portland??

Defoe obviously.

But I can resent being told by Tim L (before Defoe was signed) that the team deserved an "A" list player… bigger than Koevermans… and to make room for a very expensive and old player the movement of Urutti was necessary. Urutti wasn't going to change the culture (or sell tickets) in the way that Defoe supposedly has.

I respect that Tim L wants to go for it now… as Tom A did before him. There comes a time though when patience and building a solid youth core becomes the more prudent thing to do. In that sense, I miss the ideals of Kevin Payne (Silva and 2013 draft aside).

But what do you expect from a culture within MLSE that has also brought you the successful Toronto Maple Leafs?

[Thomas]

It kind of sounds like you want it to turn out that way. This is your ongoing thesis, is it not?


^ I'm still trying to figure out what is negative about taking a position that says don't fire the coach or don't sh*t on our young players… give them time because they aren't there yet.

Maybe just cranky that the "Bloody Big Deal" looks more and more like it could be the "Bloody Same Thing?"

[molenshtain]

Defoe obviously.

But I can resent being told by Tim L (before Defoe was signed) that the team deserved an "A" list player… bigger than Koevermans… and to make room for a very expensive and old player the movement of Urutti was necessary. Urutti wasn't going to change the culture (or sell tickets) in the way that Defoe supposedly has.

I respect that Tim L wants to go for it now… as Tom A did before him. There comes a time though when patience and building a solid youth core becomes the more prudent thing to do. In that sense, I miss the ideals of Kevin Payne (Silva and 2013 draft aside).

But what do you expect from a culture within MLSE that has also brought you the successful Toronto Maple Leafs?

I don't understand why it has to be one or the other, especially when we're only allowed to actually spend big on three players. We have Osorio, Henry, Bekker, Hagglund, Bloom,Morgan, all as part of the young core we're building plus the 4 first rounders next year, plus the top allocation spot. So we're not exactly neglecting the youth side of team building. Why can't we then fill out the squad with 80k-250k players and 3 DP's? that seems to be what we're doing. It's not either or, the best teams in this league are very good at identifying the top talent to put them over the edge AND developing young players.

[notthesun]

I respect that Tim L wants to go for it now… as Tom A did before him. There comes a time though when patience and building a solid youth core becomes the more prudent thing to do. In that sense, I miss the ideals of Kevin Payne (Silva and 2013 draft aside).

See, I think this is what bothers me about this thread. It's really a debate between signing crazy expensive, huge impact DPs, and signing cheap, fairly effective DPs. It's not really about Payne. Because those wondering if we'd be better off with Payne really miss his ideals, or his overall strategy. They don't actually miss him, I think.

As many people have rightly pointed out in the past, DPs alone don't win championships. You need the core. Those small beer moves aren't so important in isolation, but taken all together they're just as important as getting the DPs right. So in Payne's limited time here, he seems to have proved he had a knack for getting the cheap, fairly effective DPs right. But building a core? I personally have zero confidence in his ability to do that based on what I saw.

I have more confidence in Bez's ability to do the same based on what I've seen. It's early though. We'll see.

[Tony Santiago]

Listen to me. Enough. Whoever you are: do not police me.

I made an equally valid point. None of us know why Payne hasn't been hired somewhere else, either explanation is reasonable. That is obvious. Take your gratuitous insults elsewhere.

No, you really didn't make an equally valid point.

What I said wasn't a gratuitous insult, it's in line with what this thread is about and my whole wondering why it's started in the first place.

You say whatever you want, but c'mon, it is funny when people use words like "listen" and "hear" while typing on the internet.

[Tony Santiago]

Now isn't the point when you criticize it. As you point out, he has won us games. Imagine the record if he wasn't here?

The point in time when you can criticize it is 2 years from now. When Urutti is entering his mid-twenties and Defoe has a year left on his contract with hopefully at least a year left in his knees and hamstrings. The risk in bringing in a big name for the sake of a big name will become apparent as you contemplate that and whether you can stomach the double digit percent increases in your ticket prices.

That would be an appropriate time to revisit this.

For now, Defoe has got us a record a good as Preki's through 9 games. I agree with you. He has significantly contributed to this mediocre record. ;)

Yes, I know the risks and at the moment I'm enjoying the results...for a change. There's nothing wrong with a little instant gratification once in awhile.

You can worry about a hypothetical future. I'm enjoying the TFC revival now. You think these big name signings don't do something for our franchise as a whole? It is an investment and so far it looks good to me.

You can live in the past with Preki, because that was so awesome. You can also worry about two years from now. I'm enjoying the direction this team has taken....I'm absolutely amazed that some on here are talking about Preki and Kevin Payne. I'm baffled by some of our "supporters".

[ag futbol]

Well, Bez looks like a decent guy, but Leiweke is the GM. Bez was 3 years removed from whatever it is second year trainees in big law firms do (photocopying all night?) when he got this job.

I don't really know who evaluates talent right now. Nelsen I'd guess, he certainly was the guy talking about how much he wanted Warner.
Yeah, I'm consistently surprised at how people view Bezbatchenko. Given his background, I'd be surprised if he had a lot of sway over roster decisions. More likely the person they count on to structure transactions, understand rules. I doubt he's the ultimate brain trust when it comes to mining talent.

[Auzzy]

A couple of thoughts about Kevin Payne.

Others (including the OP) already mentioned Payne's very poor draft choices -- and yes we don't know how much the allocash we got in return may have helped us later.

But I think one of Payne's worst decisions (and it sheds a bit of light on other things) was to bring in Ryan Nelsen. Maybe Nelsen will still work out, and I know that some young/rookie coaches have done well elsewhere in MLS (Kreis, etc). However, none of those other teams had the same environment & problems that TFC had in 2013: so many years of sucking; a great market & fan-base that had been deeply alienated; such massive turnover in management and players for so many years; generally a complete joke of a team.

TFC needed someone with maximum experience at the helm; a guy who could give everyone -- from players to fans to the whole city -- a bit of confidence. That even if there were rough patches, here was someone who had done it before, who we could trust. I know those coaches are hard to find, and their success is never guaranteed. But there's no salary cap on coaching & management staff. For sure there was somebody in the wide world of soccer who would have been a better qualified and more reliable choice than Nelsen (still a full-time player when hired, with absolutely no coaching badges). And O'Leary doesn't instill any additional confidence.

I think that Nelsen is a decent guy, apparently well liked & respected by his peers, and with excellent contacts. However those contacts are so heavily UK-based -- and his tactical skills outside of defending seem very limited.

Of course you will ask -- then why did Leiweke keep Nelsen, of all people? I don't know. But by the time that decision had to be made, at least Nelsen already had more than a half season of coaching experience to evaluate, and I think they didn't want to have too much turmoil all at once.

Note that I'm not advocating to dump Nelsen anytime soon (even though he often pisses me off). More turmoil is just more ridiculous. But we never should have been put into this position: to have to wait it out longer on an inexperienced coach, after 8 years of failure, wondering if his on-the-job training will be successful.

That's primarily on Kevin Payne.

(Some more important stuff to come, out of time now.)

[Pookie]

I don't understand why it has to be one or the other, especially when we're only allowed to actually spend big on three players. We have Osorio, Henry, Bekker, Hagglund, Bloom,Morgan, all as part of the young core we're building plus the 4 first rounders next year, plus the top allocation spot. So we're not exactly neglecting the youth side of team building. Why can't we then fill out the squad with 80k-250k players and 3 DP's? that seems to be what we're doing. It's not either or, the best teams in this league are very good at identifying the top talent to put them over the edge AND developing young players.

We don't disagree. You would be foolish not to look at DPs as an option in this league when the rules allow for it.

But riddle me this.

The 4 first rounders next year, when do you think they can start to contribute in a consistent way? 2-3 years? When will the progress of the others you note be consistent enough that they too contribute in a consistently positive way? 1-2 years maybe?

Defoe is 31 on a 4 year contract. Skills decline with age. Injury risk increases with age. Another rule in this MLS is that teams get no budget relief for injured players.

So Defoe will be in or nearing the final year of his contract by the time this core is developed. Odds are he will be less effective than he is now. Assuming he is consistently healthy to play.

At a time when the team might have a real shot at being a contender there is a decent chance they will have a very expensive anchor that handcuffs moves they could make.

Urutti, as an example, would be in his mid-20s at a time when these picks and core players mature. No guarantees on health but odds are more in his favour than Defoe. Likely on the upswing or nearing peak years of performance.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me in terms of a DP spend. But then again, I am not selling tickets in a franchise that was supposedly on the brink of collapse or something to that effect.

[habstfc]

He was 6 months into a multi year big bucks deal. Why get another job? Three years ago Payne was a front office superstar in DC, maybe jloome is right this is mls 3.0 not mls 1.0.

I think we can all agree that if TL came in and let Payne stick with his philosophy, we wouldn't have Defoe or Bradley, probably wouldn't have come back in a game like that on Friday, have less than 13 points so far. Nobody is laughing at TFC now.

[Tony Santiago]

We don't disagree. You would be foolish not to look at DPs as an option in this league when the rules allow for it.

But riddle me this.

The 4 first rounders next year, when do you think they can start to contribute in a consistent way? 2-3 years? When will the progress of the others you note be consistent enough that they too contribute in a consistently positive way? 1-2 years maybe?

Defoe is 31 on a 4 year contract. Skills decline with age. Injury risk increases with age. Another rule in this MLS is that teams get no budget relief for injured players.

So Defoe will be in or nearing the final year of his contract by the time this core is developed. Odds are he will be less effective than he is now. Assuming he is consistently healthy to play.

At a time when the team might have a real shot at being a contender there is a decent chance they will have a very expensive anchor that handcuffs moves they could make.

Urutti, as an example, would be in his mid-20s at a time when these picks and core players mature. No guarantees on health but odds are more in his favour than Defoe. Likely on the upswing or nearing peak years of performance.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me in terms of a DP spend. But then again, I am not selling tickets in a franchise that was supposedly on the brink of collapse or something to that effect.

You are incredibly negative.

[ensco]

You are incredibly negative.

Why do you repeatedly make this kind of bitchy, no facts needed, calling out type post?

It was a good summary of the risk. He is not being negative.

The upside scenario is obvious, it all comes together in the next year or two. But if it doesn't, the team will probably have to be remade, and has a higher risk of management turmoil - Leiweke is swinging for the fences, come what may.

I get why that works for a lot of people, I (and others) think it may not be so smart. Like every previous iteration of TFC, it is attempt to invent a new model for MLS.

Anyway, I'll stop here, all these threads all seem to be referendums on how the team is doing this second. The point I was trying to discuss (which Pookie is dealing with) was about the long term plan. Which a lot of people don't want to hear right now.

[molenshtain]

Why do you repeatedly make this kind of bitchy, no facts needed, calling out type post?

It was a good summary of the risk. He is not being negative.

The upside scenario is obvious, it all comes together in the next year or two. But if it doesn't, the team will probably have to be remade, and has a higher risk of management turmoil - Leiweke is swinging for the fences, come what may.

I get why that works for a lot of people, I (and others) think it may not be so smart. Like every previous iteration of TFC, it is attempt to invent a new model for MLS.

But it' not really a new model. Leiweke thinks it works because he's won 2 championships building a roster this way. I don't see why it can't work for us here.

[ensco]

But it' not really a new model. Leiweke thinks it works because he's won 2 championships building a roster this way. I don't see why it can't work for us here.

Leieweke only acquired Beckham. Then he hired Arena, and got out of the way. Arena built an MLS elite core excluding the DPs. Arena has been quoted as saying it took 2-3 years to get the base around Beckham before adding Keane made sense. Aalso they never came close to spending $100M, they spent maybe half that.

Leiweke has made himself GM and moved young assets to realize his $100M vision. It is an untested model.

I do love Michael Bradley btw, that part of this is pretty good! So long as we get to keep him.

[molenshtain]

Leieweke only acquired Beckham. Then he hired Arena, and got out of the way. Arena built an MLS elite core excluding the DPs. Arena has been quoted as saying it took 2-3 years to get the base around Beckham before adding Keane made sense. Aalso they never came close to spending $100M, they spent maybe half that.

Leiweke has made himself GM and moved young assets to realize his $100M vision. It is an untested model.

I do love Michael Bradley btw, that part of this is pretty good! So long as we get to keep him.

But you're trying to make the case that we're not even attempting to build that younger core around our DP's, which is flat out wrong. We have a young core and are about to add to it significantly in the winter. We also have room to improve a somewhat lackluster midfield in one of the next two windows with the top allocation spot and remaining 350K we have in cap space. Also, not 100 million, but LA spent about 75-80 million on Donavon, Keane and Beckham. Beckham's contract alone was 50 million without the endorsement deals thrown in.

I don't think we're winning a championship this year as I think we'll do well to make the playoffs. But Why would it not be possible for us to build a similar base in 2 years with the amount of assets we have?

I also don't think we've moved any young assets to build this team, especially seeing as this is one of the youngest teams in the league and will continue to get younger.

[Oldtimer]

But it' not really a new model. Leiweke thinks it works because he's won 2 championships building a roster this way. I don't see why it can't work for us here.

It's an especially good model for a city like Toronto.

[Oldtimer]

Leiweke had the right to take him out. But he could have just bought Bradley and Defoe, and otherwise left him alone.

Firing him is not looking very smart at all.

Going back to this OP, I don't think it would have been possible to bring in Bradley and Defoe, because Payne does not want anything less than 100% control. That is why he left DC, the new owners wanted to have some say in things.

Payne's model with players is to bring in players with good potential and develop them.
Payne's model with coaches is to bring in coaches with good potential and develop them.
It's all part of the same philosophy. If you support Payne for having brought in Urruti and Laba, you need to also support the hiring and continued development of Nelsen.

Personally, I prefer LA's model of hire the best MLS coach possible and buy the best DPs possible, over taking chances that may never pay off. That is Leiweke's model. He is giving Nelsen a chance because he was already here and has good contacts, but if he fires him you can bet he will spend on a very high-end coach.

[Areathrasher]

I’d be very hopeful that the 4 upcoming 1st rounders yield 1-2 immediate impact players akin to a Farrell, Manneh or Mullins.

While it’s only been one draft, I’m happy with Bez’s picks and the diligence and scouting they did prior to and around the draft.

[Tony Santiago]

Why do you repeatedly make this kind of bitchy, no facts needed, calling out type post?

It was a good summary of the risk. He is not being negative.

The upside scenario is obvious, it all comes together in the next year or two. But if it doesn't, the team will probably have to be remade, and has a higher risk of management turmoil - Leiweke is swinging for the fences, come what may.

I get why that works for a lot of people, I (and others) think it may not be so smart. Like every previous iteration of TFC, it is attempt to invent a new model for MLS.

Anyway, I'll stop here, all these threads all seem to be referendums on how the team is doing this second. The point I was trying to discuss (which Pookie is dealing with) was about the long term plan. Which a lot of people don't want to hear right now.

I don't repeatedly do that.

This whole thread is negative and not based on any facts. It's imagination based, picturing a scenario where Kevin Payne is still GM. What is the purpose of it? It's all well and good to discuss the team, the games and all that but this thread seems to be searching for reasons to be negative. The timing of it is also strange coming on the heals of a home win, a 10 man away tie to the champs and during the lead up to a huge game against Montreal on Wednesday.

The only fact that I have seen of any relevance to anything is Preki (hired by fan favourite Mo Johnston) and Nelsen having the same record after 9 games....but then one must ask themselves who cares about a 9 game comparison? That doesn't tell you too much and in the end is completely meaningless because the season doesn't end after 9 games. So, although it's a fact it's pretty useless and comes in a very strange context...a debate about the merits of a long gone coach and different regimes featuring the likes of Kevin Payne, Earl Cochrane, and Tom Anselmi.

The greater fact that has been established is Tim Leiweke's proven track record of spending big and winning. That doesn't count for much apparently. Our team is also building with youth while spending big, I'm not sure why that is ignored too, but for the sake of negativity it is.

So, enough said by me. I'll leave you to it.

Looking forward to a big win this Wednesday, should be a blast down at BMO.

[jabbronies]

I thought Payne did a great job last year!

He came in and got rid of the crap that we had, brought in some really great young talent and balanced the books at the same time.
The reason we are "Successful" this year is because of what he did last year. Let's not forget the shit pile Mariner left us with. He cleaned that up, got us through a season of rebuild and didn't handcuff us to any stupid long term deals.

Laba and Urruti are proving to be great additions to the MLS
I'm ok with Nelsen for now. I think he is a great leade and has built a decent defensive strategy for this team. We are finally starting to look tougher in the later parts of the game not perfect yet, but it's getting there.
I just hope sooner rather than later he figures out how to build an offensive strategy - maybe he needs to bring in some more experienced coaching staff to do that.

As for Tim Lewikie (I'll never spell his last name correctly - I'm ok with that)

Defoe and Bradley are turning out to be great additions to the MLS
Bringing in Tim Bezbeczenco (that's how I spell it) was genius IMO. We have a guy who should make sure we don't fall into the poor spending habits that we had previously and unlike previous seasons I feel like we have rom to maneuver and bring in guys as we need them.

Would I have kept Payne?? Not sure...
Lewikie wants TFC to be a World Class Super Club and I like that idea. I don't think Payne could do that.
But in order to be a Super Club you have to be a winner. So TL needs to start consistently winning cups, championships and going deep in most, if not all, competitions.

[ManUtd4ever]

I think very few people think we are "far better". If you do, you are entitled to your view. People who feel this way seem to be basing it on points. We have the same number of points, and look less like a team, than Preki's 2010 team did. That says different things to different people I guess.

The question isn't "are we better" (because we obviously are with Bradley and Defoe), but "are we better than we would have been if we had kept Payne"?

Obviously no one can say what would have happened ... but I think the answer is "no".

Mostly because what Payne was doing (bringing in good MLS caliber talent at MLS prices) is more long-term sustainable than bringing in $6M/year players. We are one bad board meeting away from Leiweke being gone and the next guy selling off Defoe and Bradley.

Payne was building something that the next guy could have built on (but chose not to). You won't be able to say that about Leiweke.

I agree with the post above that the 2013 draft turned out horribly is a stain on Payne's record btw. Although he may have needed that allocation dough for Urruti and/or Laba, not sure.

Overall, I'd far rather have Urruti/Laba/Bekker instead of Gilberto/Dike/Hagglund, and I like what I have seen so far from Hagglund. I'd also still have millions in my pocket to spend this summer, something that is going to matter one of these days to someone. (I recognize that we don't yet know how the Laba trade worked, but I have learned not to expect much in these circumstances)

Agreed on all counts.

The Silva trade was inexcusable though, and that happened on Payne's watch.

EDIT - Nevermind, I see the Silva issue was addressed in subsequent posts.

In any event, what's done is done, and I still believe we are in very capable hands now in terms of the front office. As for the coaching staff, that remains to be seen.

[jabbronies]

Going back to this OP, I don't think it would have been possible to bring in Bradley and Defoe, because Payne does not want anything less than 100% control. That is why he left DC, the new owners wanted to have some say in things.

Payne's model with players is to bring in players with good potential and develop them.
Payne's model with coaches is to bring in coaches with good potential and develop them.
It's all part of the same philosophy. If you support Payne for having brought in Urruti and Laba, you need to also support the hiring and continued development of Nelsen.

Personally, I prefer LA's model of hire the best MLS coach possible and buy the best DPs possible, over taking chances that may never pay off. That is Leiweke's model. He is giving Nelsen a chance because he was already here and has good contacts, but if he fires him you can bet he will spend on a very high-end coach.

One thing people seem to forget is that just because you have money, doesn't mean you will always get who/what you want

There are not a lot of coaches with this specific pedigree available at any given time. I bet that is more the reason why TL decided to stay with Nelsen.
If Arena/Schmid were available at seasons end last year, I bet they would be here coaching this club.

You don't drop Nelsen and bring in second rate coach. You hold on to Nelsen, "give him the opportunity" to prove himself, but if one of those guys comes available and Nelsen isn't showing well, he will be gone in a flash. Nelsen is a decent place holder right now. if he turns out to be one of the new breed of MLS coaching geniuses, then Tim Lewikie is also genius for sticking to him.

[jabbronies]

Overall, I'd far rather have Urruti/Laba/Bekker instead of Gilberto/Dike/Hagglund, and I like what I have seen so far from Hagglund. I'd also still have millions in my pocket to spend this summer, something that is going to matter one of these days to someone. (I recognize that we don't yet know how the Laba trade worked, but I have learned not to expect much in these circumstances)

You can't compare Dike or Hagglund vs Laba
Laba is DP quality youngster - the other two are not.

[jabbronies]

Agreed on all counts.

The Silva trade was inexcusable though, and that happened on Payne's watch.

The Silva trade was horrible. What a farce and a huge stain on Payne's record IMO.
Add the whole Forlan fiasco.

[Pookie]

I don't think we're winning a championship this year as I think we'll do well to make the playoffs. But Why would it not be possible for us to build a similar base in 2 years with the amount of assets we have?

I also don't think we've moved any young assets to build this team, especially seeing as this is one of the youngest teams in the league and will continue to get younger.

Agreed on most accounts. Here's the rub though.

Will Defoe be a significant part of this team in the 2016 season with 2 years left on his deal? That's the ultimate gamble with the DP strategy we have now.

To reach back into the past, I had lengthy debates with a fellow named Roogsy regarding DeRosario, who at the time was angling for more money and a DP contract. In 2010, I said I would take DeRo but NOT with the DP tag and the budget charge that goes with it. I felt, like I do with Defoe, that it would be a major risk to invest money in players over 30 whose skills will decline… as they do for all of us… and injury risk increases.

If we had inked DeRo to a 4 year DP contract in 2011, what would have been in the outcome:

2011 - DeRo wins MVP and Golden Boot. The "I told you so" would have been deafening and perhaps justifiably so.
2012 - DeRo's minutes start to decline. He scores 7. Still.. his history would give those who like the deal a justifiable agrument.
2013 - DeRo's minutes and goals plummet. Ending his season early too with an MCL injury and potting just 3 goals
2014 - DeRo has just 257 minutes to his game and regular minutes aren't expected by anyone.

Of that 4 year deal, the team would have got about 2 years of decent work. And it's not just DeRo. Plenty of examples of players over 30 having significant achievements and then falling off the map (eg. Cunningham, Schelotto, Angel, Joseph, Ferreira…)

So, the die has been cast. On one hand, Defoe is scoring. On the other, he has already missed a month of action.

Will he be able to contribute when the team is ready to really compete? He better be as they get no budget relief if he isn't. If he isn't, he'll be a significant barrier towards improvement.

Imagine if DeRo (2014 version) was the cornerstone of the offense and you were handcuffed to be able to bring in a replacement? The team that would be ready to make a run for it would be doing so with a bit of a parachute on its back.

If you know the odds and tend to play them, you may improve your fortunes.

[pdogg]

Agreed on all counts.

The Silva trade was inexcusable though, and that happened on Payne's watch.


Without knowing how much allocation came back, that's a tough one to call. Payne was all about cleaning house for cap room and setting us up for a slow build - and that trade falls in the grey area in between.

What is interesting to note is that Silva has only started 3 of the 8 games he's played this year, and very sparse minutes as well (Averaging 30 minutes including those 3 starts). I think he had a knock earlier in the season, but he has fallen to depth on DC. Either a regression on his part, or a strong enough DC 11 man team to have the ability to have Silva sit.

[Wince]

The 4 first rounders next year, when do you think they can start to contribute in a consistent way? 2-3 years?

Hagglund is contributing consistently now.

[Phil]

Without knowing how much allocation came back, that's a tough one to call. Payne was all about cleaning house for cap room and setting us up for a slow build - and that trade falls in the grey area in between.

What is interesting to note is that Silva has only started 3 of the 8 games he's played this year, and very sparse minutes as well (Averaging 30 minutes including those 3 starts). I think he had a knock earlier in the season, but he has fallen to depth on DC. Either a regression on his part, or a strong enough DC 11 man team to have the ability to have Silva sit.

Some more observations along these lines - Payne was building the slow build and Tim L wanted no part of that. When you look at the deline in interest - which their marketing fishing was used - it showed serious erosion to the seasons ticket base and some of that centered around the bad moves. I know Nelsen didn't want Urutti and there was probably a power struggle based off of it - that is why that whole deal went down the way it did. For Silva Tim L told me the player stopped developing when he got here. At one time he was the talk of the MLS and then he faded when he got here. Some excuses given were regarding the players own mentality. Remember all the trouble in Houston? I think that may have been evidence of an on going personality issue.

Still the trade did look bad, not really surprised to see his playing time limited in DC. Hopefully the guy gets it all together.

[ManUtd4ever]

Without knowing how much allocation came back, that's a tough one to call. Payne was all about cleaning house for cap room and setting us up for a slow build - and that trade falls in the grey area in between.

What is interesting to note is that Silva has only started 3 of the 8 games he's played this year, and very sparse minutes as well (Averaging 30 minutes including those 3 starts). I think he had a knock earlier in the season, but he has fallen to depth on DC. Either a regression on his part, or a strong enough DC 11 man team to have the ability to have Silva sit.

I don't dispute the rationale in moving a guy like Silva with an up and coming player like Osorio on the roster. What I took issue with was the inequitable return for a player that held value in the trade market at that point in time. By definition, allocation is temporary salary cap relief, and a finite asset.

As for Silva's current status with DC, I'm surprised he has regressed that badly. I always thought he had tremendous vision for us during his tenure with TFC.

[ensco]

The greater fact that has been established is Tim Leiweke's proven track record of spending big and winning. That doesn't count for much apparently. Our team is also building with youth while spending big, I'm not sure why that is ignored too, but for the sake of negativity it is.


Your second point, I see some of that. Osorio, Henry, even Bradley and Gilberto and the Warner move. Those are, or could be, young cornerstones. It's not all black and white, that is a reasonable argument.

Your first point, no way do I see that as proven. Read the boards on bigsoccer: Leiweke was the front man, Dan Beckerman is the guy that actually ran the Galaxy, Grant Wahl has said it too. Anschutz did not give Leiweke anywhere near the control he claims he had, there has been tons written about the complicated relationship between Leiweke and Anschutz. You can also find articles describing unhappiness with Leiweke's taking credit for things others did in Denver (he was 100% in the business ops there, but the team got better, attendance went up, and he crows about it a fair bit)

The guy has been lucky, which I respect. But I look at Leiweke and I see a guy that has never been given anywhere near this level of on-field control, and he sometimes leaves burned bridges and unhappy people behind.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/32338775/1

[pdogg]

For Silva Tim L told me the player stopped developing when he got here. At one time he was the talk of the MLS and then he faded when he got here. Some excuses given were regarding the players own mentality. Remember all the trouble in Houston? I think that may have been evidence of an on going personality issue.

Still the trade did look bad, not really surprised to see his playing time limited in DC. Hopefully the guy gets it all together.

I hope so too - I liked Silva while he was here and was shocked when he was traded. The allocation part stung most as there was nothing to show for it - but commentary from Payne afterwards about a whole whack of allocation sounded like he was trying to sell him at a high.

The stats this year might prove that Payne was right, but that's useless because for all the allocation he accumulated, he never was able to use it. Trading off talent for allocation, trading draft picks down for allocation, picking up Laba and Urutti (and the other player we were supposed to get with the Laba deal).

That's the problem with such quick turnover at the management level, it doesn't allow a strategy to play itself out. Trades that might seem ridiculous in the short term (and this did) might have been part of a larger tactic.

[pdogg]

I don't dispute the rationale in moving a guy like Silva with an up and coming player like Osorio on the roster. What I took issue with was the inequitable return for a player that held value in the trade market at that point in time. By definition, allocation is temporary salary cap relief, and a finite asset.

As for Silva's current status with DC, I'm surprised he has regressed that badly. I always thought he had tremendous vision for us during his tenure with TFC.

Allocation is so convoluted that who knows how it could have been used. Could we have used more allocation to hold on to Laba?

But like I said (and I think what Tony is getting at) - it's all done and gone now. We could play what-if all day, but what is important is what Bez does now. We lost some good assets for cap space and allocation and Bez was given as clean a slate as possible given the baggage this team has had in the past.

[ensco]

But like I said (and I think what Tony is getting at) - it's all done and gone now. We could play what-if all day, but what is important is what Bez does now. We lost some good assets for cap space and allocation and Bez was given as clean a slate as possible given the baggage this team has had in the past.

That is true, but it's not just a "what if" exercise. The MLSE board will be thinking along these lines, or hire consultants to do it, as unproductive as you and others may find it, in evaluating Leiweke's decision making. I'd bet money on that.

The candle that burns twice as bright burns twice as fast.

[molenshtain]

Your second point, I see some of that. Osorio, Henry, even Bradley and Gilberto and the Warner move. Those are, or could be, young cornerstones. It's not all black and white, that is a reasonable argument.

Your first point, no way do I see that as proven. Read the boards on bigsoccer: Leiweke was the front man, Dan Beckerman is the guy that actually ran the Galaxy, Grant Wahl has said it too. Anschutz did not give Leiweke anywhere near the control he claims he had, there has been tons written about the complicated relationship between Leiweke and Anschutz. You can also find articles describing unhappiness with Leiweke's taking credit for things others did in Denver (he was 100% in the business ops there, but the team got better, attendance went up, and he crows about it a fair bit)

The guy has been lucky, which I respect. But I look at Leiweke and I see a guy that has never been given anywhere near this level of on-field control, and he sometimes leaves burned bridges and unhappy people behind.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/32338775/1


But there's no indication he has MORE control here. For all intents and purposes, it actually looks like the exact same structure with he had in LA with Tim L handling the running of the entire MLSE and only dipping his hand into TFC on major issues such as the Big signings and the Stadium. Tim B does the day to day i.e. cap managment, filling out the roster with MLS level talent and Nelsen running the team and co-operating heavily with Tim B on player scouting.

you're also missing Bekker, Morrow, Bloom,and maybe Lovitz in that group of the young MLS core( I know, Morrow is 26, but that still gives him quite a few years with us if we plan on keeping him for the long run). Seriously, You give this team a few capable wingers and it's not very obvious where our wholes are.

[Oldtimer]

That is true, but it's not just a "what if" exercise. The MLSE board will be thinking along these lines, or hire consultants to do it, as unproductive as you and others may find it, in evaluating Leiweke's decision making. I'd bet money on that.

The candle that burns twice as bright burns twice as fast.

Attendance is up, concessions are up, sponsorships are up. The idea that the board will be comparing Tim L's roster strategies to Payne's is not at all realistic. I'm actually surprised that you posted this being so aware as you are of MLSE's corporate culture, and corporate culture in general.

[ensco]

Attendance is up, concessions are up, sponsorships are up. The idea that the board will be comparing Tim L's roster strategies to Payne's is not at all realistic. I'm actually surprised that you posted this being so aware as you are of MLSE's corporate culture, and corporate culture in general.

I see lots of potential for trouble on this at the board level. I will quote Leiweke himself: from a Board POV, the strategy he's pursuing is "financial suicide". Leiweke committed $100M to generate maybe an extra $3M in cash flow, which may or may not be there next year (big signings produce their biggest boost out of the gate). The language the owners speak, TV ratings, those haven't really moved.

The owners are bean counters who will not naturally take to this vision.

We shall see.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Urruti on 5 goals now. Laba is a star.

I am still bothered by the treatment Payne got from the team, and from these boards. He got ripped. All kinds of innuendo. Led by Nelsen first and foremost. It's still going on, that Sports Business Journal story from a couple of days ago quoting the ticket manager darkly going on about how terrible things were when he got here.

Leiweke had the right to take him out. But he could have just bought Bradley and Defoe, and otherwise left him alone.

Firing him is not looking very smart at all.

Nelsen first? Not by a longshot. He got ripped alright. Just as everyone that isn't a perfect success does on this board. They also get respect and time on this board as well and if you're going to cherry pick points in time concerning average forum support you're going to be called on it.

Past that, as ER said earlier there's no reason we can't revisit the past and debate (civilly, please)" What if's" and "coulda been's"

Also, special mention for Tony using the term "Imagination thread"g:D Love it.

[Pookie]

Hagglund is contributing consistently now.

He has looked fine in the 3 games he has started.

[ensco]

Also, special mention for Tony using the term "Imagination thread"g:D Love it.

That's true. That was good.

[ag futbol]

Without knowing how much allocation came back, that's a tough one to call. Payne was all about cleaning house for cap room and setting us up for a slow build - and that trade falls in the grey area in between.

What is interesting to note is that Silva has only started 3 of the 8 games he's played this year, and very sparse minutes as well (Averaging 30 minutes including those 3 starts). I think he had a knock earlier in the season, but he has fallen to depth on DC. Either a regression on his part, or a strong enough DC 11 man team to have the ability to have Silva sit.
Heard more than a few rumours that they weren't a fan if his attitude and he wasn't much of a fan of TFV either (all unconfirmed of course).

Take it with a grain (or bag) of salt.

[pdogg]

Heard more than a few rumours that they weren't a fan if his attitude and he wasn't much of a fan of TFV either (all unconfirmed of course).

Take it with a grain (or bag) of salt.

I know he wasn't a Payne departure, but the one that hurt more than all the others was the Cronin trade. Good head on his shoulders, stood up for the team to the media after that NY debacle, but unfortunately clashed with Preki and/or his style.

[Wooster_TFC]

Just to throw something else in the mix, weren't there rumors (since this is all this thread is about - supposition) that Urruti viewed MLS as inferior to him? That, at best, he was going to be using this as a stepping stone to move somewhere else within 2-3 years?

Based on that, if TFC had kept Urruti, he would have been sold or moved on (this one more likely) before he even hit his prime.

[ensco]

Just to throw something else in the mix, weren't there rumors (since this is all this thread is about - supposition) that Urruti viewed MLS as inferior to him? That, at best, he was going to be using this as a stepping stone to move somewhere else within 2-3 years?

Based on that, if TFC had kept Urruti, he would have been sold or moved on (this one more likely) before he even hit his prime.

I think Armen or someone debunked that. One of the holdups in that deal was the amount Newell's would get if MLS sold him on. It was a Newell's issue, not an Urruti issue.

[Phil]

Payne made a total mess of that transfer and it got over hyped. Nothing will ever approach the reaction I saw from TFC's media man when he checked his phone and the Old Boys made a statement on their website regarding TFC's tactics.

[Tony Santiago]

I'm only dropping in to say that I found the comments by Fort York Redcoat and ensco to be rather classy.....now I'm leaving before it becomes a full on love-in.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'm only dropping in to say that I found the comments by Fort York Redcoat and ensco to be rather classy.....now I'm leaving before it becomes a full on love-in.

:grouphug:

Thread level: Rainbow

http://www.rainbowthreads.biz/images/rainbowthreadscdlogotext.jpg

[Derko]

I always thought it was a bit strange that Payne was released so quickly. But I can 'Deal with it'

[ExiledRed]

Personally, I prefer LA's model of hire the best MLS coach possible and buy the best DPs possible, over taking chances that may never pay off.

Oh my god. Im going to mark this day in history as the first time you've said something I fully agree with.

If ownership was ever serious about doing what it takes to win the MLS cup, Supporters Shield or doing well in the CL, this is what they would have done. Its a tried and tested model that works all over the fucking world, and we could afford to have done it anytime.

[molenshtain]

Oh my god. Im going to mark this day in history as the first time you've said something I fully agree with.

If ownership was ever serious about doing what it takes to win the MLS cup, Supporters Shield or doing well in the CL, this is what they would have done. Its a tried and tested model that works all over the fucking world, and we could afford to have done it anytime.

and if Nelsen fails, We will likely do so. If Seattle doesn't at least make the final this season then Sigi will be out of a job. He'll probably be the hire if we don't make the playoffs.

[jloome]

Oh my god. Im going to mark this day in history as the first time you've said something I fully agree with.

If ownership was ever serious about doing what it takes to win the MLS cup, Supporters Shield or doing well in the CL, this is what they would have done. Its a tried and tested model that works all over the fucking world, and we could afford to have done it anytime.

It's not that they're not serious, it' s that, as with a lot of insular levels of corporate culture, they suffer from "smartest guy in the room" syndrome. Why do what's worked in the past when you can spend other people's money, without consequence, and potentially prove yourself a genius by doing it a NEW way, by DISCOVERING someone.

That's the fucking problem.

I'm just hoping Nelsen turns out to be the exception on untested coaches. I think it's about 50/50 right now, maybe 60/40 in his favor. We've just started to see tactical adaption, which we never got from his predecessors and is a good sign.

[Soccerpro]

Kevin Payne should never be a GM in MLS again simply for being responsible for the worst draft in MLS history in 2012. What he did with our two 1st round picks was criminal, even if you think he did well with magic allocation beans.

Tim Bez did more this year with a mid first rounder and a second rounder. It gives me great hope that he can identify talent in the NCAA draft, which is absolutely crucial in MLS regardless of what anyone says.

[ensco]

and if Nelsen fails, We will likely do so. If Seattle doesn't at least make the final this season then Sigi will be out of a job. He'll probably be the hire if we don't make the playoffs.

He's an LA guy who left Columbus in part to get back on the left coast. Hard to imagine.

[brad]

Not implying this is the case.

But - a common corporate tactic when you are going through a "bad" period like layoffs of restructuring is to bring in a hatchet man to lead while doing so. They will never be popular due what they are doing. They come in do the dirty work - take the hit of the worker dislike - then get dumped.

After that the "good times" leader comes in to pick up the peices and the troops rally around them - largely due to them being a better alternative than the hatchet man.

Again. Not saying this happened - but the thought crossed my mind when it happened

[MightyDM]

I'm just hoping Nelsen turns out to be the exception on untested coaches. I think it's about 50/50 right now, maybe 60/40 in his favor. We've just started to see tactical adaption, which we never got from his predecessors and is a good sign.

Most fair thing said about Nelsen for a while. Judging from KC, his substitutions are getting better too.

[ag futbol]

and if Nelsen fails, We will likely do so. If Seattle doesn't at least make the final this season then Sigi will be out of a job. He'll probably be the hire if we don't make the playoffs.
I'll probably get roundly roasted for this but if we're looking for an elite MLS coach Sigi Schmid would not be on my list. The way the game is played in this league has drastically changed since his time in Columbus. In Seattle, he's had access to an A+ level of resources and pretty consistently gets B+ results. Very frequent complains of him being tactically a step behind, which IMO are valid.

I'd much rather go after someone like Sasho Cirovski, Octavio Zambrano, Adrian Heath (too late), Bob Bradley (too soon?), etc...



Not implying this is the case.

But - a common corporate tactic when you are going through a "bad" period like layoffs of restructuring is to bring in a hatchet man to lead while doing so. They will never be popular due what they are doing. They come in do the dirty work - take the hit of the worker dislike - then get dumped.

After that the "good times" leader comes in to pick up the peices and the troops rally around them - largely due to them being a better alternative than the hatchet man.

Again. Not saying this happened - but the thought crossed my mind when it happened
I don't know if Payne was hired as a hatchet guy, but he's certainly wasn't afraid to burn things down. He deserves a lot of credit for that irrespective of what else happened last year. No way anyone shows up this year and gets to play hero unless Payne does the tough job of eating all those bad contracts, making buyouts, and not thinking short term for once. Yeah he blew some roster decisions but nothing we couldn't get ourselves out of. It wasn't like he signed a below average RB to a 400k /yr contract or wildly spent our resources on deals we couldn't get out of. I think it was probably best that we parted ways with him when we did, but he deserves credit for part of the TFC you see today.

[jloome]

I know he wasn't a Payne departure, but the one that hurt more than all the others was the Cronin trade. Good head on his shoulders, stood up for the team to the media after that NY debacle, but unfortunately clashed with Preki and/or his style.

He's lost his starting spot in SJ as of last week; but still a great midfielder.

[ensco]

Not implying this is the case.

But - a common corporate tactic when you are going through a "bad" period like layoffs of restructuring is to bring in a hatchet man to lead while doing so. They will never be popular due what they are doing. They come in do the dirty work - take the hit of the worker dislike - then get dumped.

After that the "good times" leader comes in to pick up the peices and the troops rally around them - largely due to them being a better alternative than the hatchet man.

Again. Not saying this happened - but the thought crossed my mind when it happened

It did wind up looking that way. Although I think it's more of a coincidence - Payne was hired by the former owner.

I think it could have worked for Payne here but for the Urruti and Forlan episodes - I think they totally undermined Payne in the league office, and we can see how much Leiweke relies on the league offices to help him run his teams (ie a lot).

[brad]

Oh my god. Im going to mark this day in history as the first time you've said something I fully agree with.

If ownership was ever serious about doing what it takes to win the MLS cup, Supporters Shield or doing well in the CL, this is what they would have done. Its a tried and tested model that works all over the fucking world, and we could afford to have done it anytime.

It never would have worked here though.

The experienced manager would have never been given the autonomy to do his job. He would have had people like Earl and whoever Anselmi's guy would have been looking out for their own best interests like it always was. I'm pretty sure that is why we never saw any quality manager from within the league. They all knew the score, knew they were setup to fail from the start as a result, and stayed far away.

On the player front - the locker room was a mess, the players were poor and overpaid. Adding one top DP from 2007-2010 (when only one was allowed) and adding 3 from 2010 - 2013 would not have made any real difference as a result. LA were such a dominant force because Area built solid, solid team for the DP's to perform in. They kept the results up when they had all 3 DP's out for a period of time. Guys like Gonzalez and Juninho were every bit as important to that side as Becks/Donavan/Keane

[ExiledRed]

It never would have worked here though.

The experienced manager would have never been given the autonomy to do his job. He would have had people like Earl and whoever Anselmi's guy would have been looking out for their own best interests like it always was. I'm pretty sure that is why we never saw any quality manager from within the league. They all knew the score, knew they were setup to fail from the start as a result, and stayed far away.

On the player front - the locker room was a mess, the players were poor and overpaid. Adding one top DP from 2007-2010 (when only one was allowed) and adding 3 from 2010 - 2013 would not have made any real difference as a result. LA were such a dominant force because Area built solid, solid team for the DP's to perform in. They kept the results up when they had all 3 DP's out for a period of time. Guys like Gonzalez and Juninho were every bit as important to that side as Becks/Donavan/Keane

I just dealt with this in the numbers thread.

The reason we probably dont get experienced coaches is that they are wise enough to demand that kind of autonomy, and so far this has not been acceptable to the suits.

[Oldtimer]

Im going to mark this day in history as the first time you've said something I fully agree with.



g:D I think we want the same thing for this club. Success. Is it too much to ask? Why can't we be great? MLSE has the bucks to be a powerhouse in this league.

[mcolvy]

Urruti on 5 goals now. Laba is a star.

I am still bothered by the treatment Payne got from the team, and from these boards. He got ripped. All kinds of innuendo. Led by Nelsen first and foremost. It's still going on, that Sports Business Journal story from a couple of days ago quoting the ticket manager darkly going on about how terrible things were when he got here.

Leiweke had the right to take him out. But he could have just bought Bradley and Defoe, and otherwise left him alone.

Firing him is not looking very smart at all.

link to article?