TFC by the Numbers - 9 games in

[Pookie]

Here is a look at season by season starts. Points, Goal Differential and Payroll (based on MLS Player's Union salary information).



Coach
Season
W
L
T
Points
GF
GA
Differential
Estimated Payroll


Carver
2008
4
3
2
14
14
14
0
$3.3M


Carver/Cummins
2009
3
2
4
13
13
11
2
$4.1M


Nelsen
2014
4
4
1
13
11
11
0
$15.6M


Preki
2010
4
4
1
13
12
13
-1
$4.2M


Winter
2011
2
3
4
10
9
14
-5
$6.6M


Johnston
2007
3
5
1
10
9
16
-7
$2.6M


Nelsen
2013
1
4
4
7
10
13
-3
$4.3M


Winter
2012
0
9
0
0
7
21
-14
$8.3M

[PopePouri]

Wow. Numbers.

[LFC8]

LOL at 2012...i don't care how many injuries you have or how bad your team really is, there is no excuse for 0-9.

[ManUtd4ever]

Here is a look at season by season starts. Points, Goal Differential and Payroll (based on MLS Player's Union salary information).



Coach
Season
W
L
T
Points
GF
GA
Differential
Estimated Payroll


Carver
2008
4
3
2
14
14
14
0
$3.3M


Carver/Cummins
2009
3
2
4
13
13
11
2
$4.1M


Nelsen
2014
4
4
1
13
11
11
0
$15.6M


Preki
2010
4
4
1
13
12
13
-1
$4.2M


Winter
2011
2
3
4
10
9
14
-5
$6.6M


Johnston
2007
3
5
1
10
9
16
-7
$2.6M


Nelsen
2013
1
4
4
7
10
13
-3
$4.3M


Winter
2012
0
9
0
0
7
21
-14
$8.3M




Not surprising that the results are almost identical, considering that both coaches employ a similar tactical approach.

The problem is, the current squad is miles ahead of the 2010 squad in terms of talent.

[reggie]

and yr point is???btw im still a tfc supporter at 3 mil , 6mil, 15mil 100mil,thats what supporters do we support win or lose.

[MightyDM]

and yr point is???btw im still a tfc supporter at 3 mil , 6mil, 15mil 100mil,thats what supporters do we support win or lose.

Bingo.

[jloome]

I find it amusing that all Pookie did was post the numbers. People who are frantic about their endorsement filled in the rest.

[Kaz]

Here is a look at season by season starts. Points, Goal Differential and Payroll (based on MLS Player's Union salary information).



Coach
Season
W
L
T
Points
GF
GA
Differential
Estimated Payroll


Carver
2008
4
3
2
14
14
14
0
$3.3M


Carver/Cummins
2009
3
2
4
13
13
11
2
$4.1M


Nelsen
2014
4
4
1
13
11
11
0
$15.6M


Preki
2010
4
4
1
13
12
13
-1
$4.2M


Winter
2011
2
3
4
10
9
14
-5
$6.6M


Johnston
2007
3
5
1
10
9
16
-7
$2.6M


Nelsen
2013
1
4
4
7
10
13
-3
$4.3M


Winter
2012
0
9
0
0
7
21
-14
$8.3M




There is one thing you missed

here are the 9 teams we've played so far... this includes their 9 game point totals and current point totals

Toronto is 12th overall right now. All 9 Teams sit above us... and all but Columbus and New York had fewer points over 9 games. In fact the other 7 are the only teams with more points over 9 games. Those 9 teams represent most of the the top half of the league. The only bottom half teams we've player are New York and Columbus and are still in the stop third.

Are we where we would like to be.. no... but it isn't as bad as it looks.



Team
Game 9
Current
Games


Seattle
19
26
(13)


Salt Lake
17
24
(12)


Kansas City
17
18
(12)


FC Dallas
16
18
(14)


Colorado
15
18
(12)


DC United
14
18
(12)


New England
14
23
(12)


Columbus
12
16
(12)


New York
11
14
(13)


Toronto
13
13
(9)



Seattle 4 games vs bottom 5 teams(4 wins 12 pts)
RSL 3 games vs bottom 5 teams(1 win 5pts)
New England 4 games vs bottom 5 teams(2 wins 7pts)
SKC 5 games vs bottom 5 teams(3 wins 9pts)
DC United 3 games vs bottom 5 teams(1 win 5pts)
Colorado 4 games vs bottom 5 teams(2 wins 8pts)
FC Dallas 4 games vs bottom 5 teams(2 wins 7pts)
Columbus 3 games vs bottom 5 teams(2 wins 7pts)
New York 5 games vs bottom 5 teams (1 win 7pts)

So we have 9 teams we have player all who played at least 3 games against teams currently in the bottom 5 of the table. 8 of which dropped 2 or more points in those games.

Lets let the season get to the half way mark before me make too many judgements.

Numbers are fun too look at but don't mean much or show much till July or so.

[Pookie]

Kaz

Position relative to the table is another discussion. I was simply looking at comparing TFC's start to other TFC starts. We have had so much turnover of players, coaches, and salary structures it was interesting to me to see 6 of 8 campaigns all within 4 points.

[Pookie]

Not surprising that the results are almost identical, considering that both coaches employ a similar tactical approach.

The problem is, the current squad is miles ahead of the 2010 squad in terms of talent.

Not a fan of another coaching change though there could be a potential challenge for Nelsen on the horizon if it isn't already there.

The Preki comparison is valid.

1. The Board likely did not approve a 3-4X increase in payroll for a plan that included 2 DP strikers for the team to adopt a bunkering style and rank 5th in terms of goals for vs other campaigns. Defense may (or may not) win games but offense sells content and tickets.

2. The second storm potentially looming is what does Defoe think about this style and the service he is getting? Clearly frustrated on the pitch, does he take his concerns forward? In bringing in millionaires you open the door to a secondary level of team management. No idea if Defoe is that sort but if he is, Nelsen would seemingly be at odds with Defoe's level of satisfaction.


Preki's 2010 campaign went 2-0-3 over the next 5 games (then teams figured them out and the wheels fell off). Nelsen has his work cut out for him.

[Kaz]

Kaz

Position relative to the table is another discussion. I was simply looking at comparing TFC's start to other TFC starts. We have had so much turnover of players, coaches, and salary structures it was interesting to me to see 6 of 8 campaigns all within 4 points.

You are so negative all the time and the choice to include salary makes it easy to see your intent as being negative.. if you had positioned it as such.. I would have know.

Though I think those numbers are just as valid.

[ManUtd4ever]

Not a fan of another coaching change though there could be a potential challenge for Nelsen on the horizon if it isn't already there.

The Preki comparison is valid.

1. The Board likely did not approve a 3-4X increase in payroll for a plan that included 2 DP strikers for the team to adopt a bunkering style and rank 5th in terms of goals for vs other campaigns. Defense may (or may not) win games but offense sells content and tickets.

2. The second storm potentially looming is what does Defoe think about this style and the service he is getting? Clearly frustrated on the pitch, does he take his concerns forward? In bringing in millionaires you open the door to a secondary level of team management. No idea if Defoe is that sort but if he is, Nelsen would seemingly be at odds with Defoe's level of satisfaction.


Preki's 2010 campaign went 2-0-3 over the next 5 games (then teams figured them out and the wheels fell off). Nelsen has his work cut out for him.

Ideally, I would like to see Nelsen retained in a front office role recruiting talent and another coach hired to implement a new system that is suited to our players strengths.

Not sure if that is a realistic option though.

[tfcocd]

Here is a look at season by season starts. Points, Goal Differential and Payroll (based on MLS Player's Union salary information).



Coach

Season

W

L

T

Points

GF

GA

Differential

Estimated Payroll



Carver

2008

4

3

2

14

14

14


$3.3M



Carver/Cummins

2009

3

2

4

13

13

11

2

$4.1M



Nelsen

2014

4

4

1

13

11

11


$15.6M



Preki

2010

4

4

1

13

12

13

-1

$4.2M



Winter

2011

2

3

4

10

9

14

-5

$6.6M



Johnston

2007

3

5

1

10

9

16

-7

$2.6M



Nelsen

2013

1

4

4

7

10

13

-3

$4.3M



Winter

2012


9



7

21

-14

$8.3M






2009 is still the season to beat... double digit wins in 30 game season! Not sure what the relevance of the payroll is to the record after 9 games, especially when there is a salary cap.

[Pookie]

2009 is still the season to beat... double digit wins in 30 game season! Not sure what the relevance of the payroll is to the record after 9 games, especially when there is a salary cap.

Payroll shows where the funds are being invested and whether there is return. TFC teams have historically invested in players as opposed to coaches, scouts or long term player development. The second highest spending TFC team is actually the worst. The highest spending team is simply on par with other campaigns thus far.

Spending on players doesn't appear to be correlated with success thus far in this relatively small sample size. Will be interesting to see how it plays out over the season. Most of those teams, with the exception of the 2009 campaign had the wheels fall off.

[Oldtimer]

Wow 9 whole games.

Let's fire Nelsen because that's what we do in Toronto.

That way the disfunction can continue for even more years.

[Canary10]

Payroll shows where the funds are being invested and whether there is return. TFC teams have historically invested in players as opposed to coaches, scouts or long term player development. The second highest spending TFC team is actually the worst. The highest spending team is simply on par with other campaigns thus far.

Spending on players doesn't appear to be correlated with success thus far in this relatively small sample size. Will be interesting to see how it plays out over the season. Most of those teams, with the exception of the 2009 campaign had the wheels fall off.

You are always saying we don't invest in scouting, player development, etc. Do you have a breakdown of what all teams in MLS spend on these? And where we rank against the teams apparently doing these things well?

[Canary10]

Also with the sheer number of players we've retired and made into scouts over the years how can it be even remotely possible we have less scouts than other teams? :)

[dupont]

That 2012 season is really one for the ages. lol

[ExiledRed]

Wow 9 whole games.

Let's fire Nelsen because that's what we do in Toronto.

That way the disfunction can continue for even more years.

I believe Pookie is discussing the correlation between spending and success with regards to MLS. I didnt get where he called for Nelsen's dismissal, but seing as you seem to be up for the discussion:

Winter's dysfunction(sic) continued for one year more than it should, because of blind support and 'philosophers' (as Mourinho would call them) who were calling for patience in the face of clear incompetence.
The chart up there sort of proves it. He started his second season at 0-9. Giving him time only exacerbated the dysfunction. We should have canned him before the prior off season and maybe got an experienced coach instead. Then the dysfunction could have stopped and the next coach could have an off season and less excuses.

The other thing that chart up there proves is that Nelsen is grossly overpriced. Im not sure why he commands $15m. Is nobody else concerned about that? Somebody clarify please.

Nelsen has had an entire season and an off season and is nine games into his second season. He is not nine games into his tenure. Stop it.

He hasn't failed, but he's shown little to inspire us that he can lead this team to success in the long term. That needs to change. Quickly.

As with Winter, giving him time wont help if he's crap.

[Oldtimer]

I'm objecting to evaluating this season based on nine games. That is all. If TFC misses a playoff spot for a second year, I will not be in favour of keeping Nelsen.

[ExiledRed]

I'm objecting to evaluating this season based on nine games. That is all. If TFC misses a playoff spot for a second year, I will not be in favour of keeping Nelsen.

This is a better post than your last one. It actually states your position.

Let me ask you. If Nelsen doesnt make the playoffs and they fire him, and then they hire yet another inexperienced ex player type with brand new coaching credentials to fix the mess.

How long do you give this guy? Do you wait until the last game of his second season to see if its working out and then get behind the next rookie to come along, and THEN go through yet another two year rebuild only to arrive back where you started? Just like you have been doing for the last eight years?

Or do you say 'WTF are we hiring these rookies for? get rid of him quickly and put someone proven in there.'

At some point the inexperience of the coaches has to be regarded as the consistent issue that has plagued this team, and it cannot be addressed by giving underperforming rookies two years a pop.

[TFC07]

If Nelsen doesn't make it to the playoffs, then he's fired for sure. No questions asked. Anyone thinking Nelsen will survive another season if TFC doesn't make it to the playoffs this season are crazy.

I personally believe Nelsen is only here because of his contact with players like Defoe. If wasn't for his contract, then he would have been fired with Payne as well.

As for this topic, it's stupid topic since games we have played this season have been a lot tougher than before. We played against some of best teams in the league (most of them on the road) compare to the past years. Now we're starting to play more home games against weaker opposition. Hopefully we start going on winning streak to climb up in the standings.

[Pookie]

Also with the sheer number of players we've retired and made into scouts over the years how can it be even remotely possible we have less scouts than other teams? :)

Or Assistant GMs ;)

Any information I could share on this would reflect comments made by those within MLS, from other MLS clubs and those within local associations with ties to TFC-A. Not comfortable in doing so.

As a general statement, TFC have historically had a significant local scouting presence. I will leave it to those in the associations to comment as to the effectiveness of the structure to this point in time.

I will say that there have been some positive signs that TFC is looking at a more active scouting investment worldwide. One example is that they finally appear to be making use of international scouting resources like Wyscout (http://wyscout.com/customers-7/). Another is Greg Vanney hired as new head of the Academy with ties to the USSF Development Academy.

Other items such as listing Pat Onstead as head of scouting on the official club website for as long as 3 months after he was let go suggest that there is more to do there.

I would ask you this. If TFC invested the most in scouting in the league and rated itself as the top of the top, do you think Tim L would be shy in mentioning it?

[OgtheDim]

We're a mid table team.

Considering the brain trust screwed up and didn't get a decent midfield yet to surround Bradley and feed Defoe, not bad.

[gate7]

I guess we had it good with Carver then???:noidea:

[Pookie]

You are always saying we don't invest in scouting, player development, etc. Do you have a breakdown of what all teams in MLS spend on these? And where we rank against the teams apparently doing these things well?

The USSF Development Academy does rank player development. Most recent rankings I could find were for the year 2012. TFC was not a part of the USSFDA but Vancouver was and Montreal joined later that year. In fact, TFC was the only MLS Academy not to participate in the USSFDA as far as I can tell. With the hiring of Greg Vanney, that will likely change.

Of the 77 organizations rated (MLS and non-MLS); New England, Dallas, Chivas, NY, SKC, Vancouver, Chicago, RSL, Seattle and Columbus all rank in the top 15. Caps are ranked 7th overall.

Interesting read here for more info:

http://www.topdrawersoccer.com/club-soccer-articles/dev-academy-evaluations:-a-closer-look_aid28323

[molenshtain]

Also, just to add on to what Pookie is saying re player development, This club has done an extraordinary job at alienating basically the entire youth set-up in the GTA. whether it be coaches and higher ups who work at clubs, players (due to a lack of success), or the people running OSA. It is truly remarkable the way that they have given absolutely no thought as to how to treat and include these people into the process properly. We might be heading in the right direction at the moment but there is still tons of resentment from a lot of influential coaches and clubs in the area.

Not sure how they're going to fix that.

[lobo]

...
Winter's dysfunction(sic) continued for one year more than it should, because of blind support and 'philosophers' (as Mourinho would call them) who were calling for patience in the face of clear incompetence.
The chart up there sort of proves it. He started his second season at 0-9. Giving him time only exacerbated the dysfunction. We should have canned him before the prior off season and maybe got an experienced coach instead. Then the dysfunction could have stopped and the next coach could have an off season and less excuses.
...

That kind of hindsight analysis is super easy. Our final MLS record was crap, but who in their right mind would have fired Winter at the end of 2011? The team finished the league in good form, only losing 2 of their final 11 MLS games (3-6-2), we won the Voyageurs Cup (hell we even won the Trillium Cup), we made it past the CCL prelim and group stages and qualified for quarter finals, in the summer window we brought in Frings, and Koev who scored 8 goals in 10 games, we had the dynamite little Joao Plata in his first MLS season. There were criticisms whether Winter's adherence to 4-3-3 wa appropriate, but overall the end of 2011 was a positive time, most people were expecting great things for 2012. I don't think more than a very few people saw any real incompetence or dysfunction at that time (feel free to remind me if I have forgotten some other aspect of 2011 that would indicate otherwise). Winter was fired at the appropriate time, after starting 2012 with a shocking 9 straight losses.

I think the most relevant point you made was that we should have hired an experienced proven coach following Winter.

btw, the $15M noted is the estimated team salary, not Nelsen's salary.

[MightyDM]

At some point the inexperience of the coaches has to be regarded as the consistent issue that has plagued this team, and it cannot be addressed by giving underperforming rookies two years a pop.

Mo, Carver, Winter, Mariner, Preki all had significant coaching experience. Nelsen has great connections and instils relentlessness in his players. He may have other weaknesses but be careful what you wish for.

[Super]

Mo, Carver, Winter, Mariner, Preki all had significant coaching experience. Nelsen has great connections and instils relentlessness in his players. He may have other weaknesses but be careful what you wish for.

Only Preki had significant (more than 1 year) experience acting as the head coach. Assistant coach does not = head coach material. Big difference. As far as I'm concerned we've never picked a good candidate for the job. Never. By good candidate I mean someone with significant (5+) years of head coaching at the top level (of any top 20 league) and who has the intelligence to understand and work within our league, and who is all in all a good guy who is well liked by players (that ruled out Preki), and who is known for, and wants to play attacking foodball.

Might be tough to find such a candidate, but money can buy you anything. Nevermind spending 100 million on Defoe or Bradley - as much as I loved the signings. Throw some million at a top coach who can get max out of his players.

[ExiledRed]

That kind of hindsight analysis is super easy. Our final MLS record was crap, but who in their right mind would have fired Winter at the end of 2011? The team finished the league in good form, only losing 2 of their final 11 MLS games (3-6-2), we won the Voyageurs Cup (hell we even won the Trillium Cup), we made it past the CCL prelim and group stages and qualified for quarter finals, in the summer window we brought in Frings, and Koev who scored 8 goals in 10 games, we had the dynamite little Joao Plata in his first MLS season. There were criticisms whether Winter's adherence to 4-3-3 wa appropriate, but overall the end of 2011 was a positive time, most people were expecting great things for 2012. I don't think more than a very few people saw any real incompetence or dysfunction at that time (feel free to remind me if I have forgotten some other aspect of 2011 that would indicate otherwise). Winter was fired at the appropriate time, after starting 2012 with a shocking 9 straight losses.

I think the most relevant point you made was that we should have hired an experienced proven coach following Winter.

btw, the $15M noted is the estimated team salary, not Nelsen's salary.

It wasn't hindsight for a lot of fans who were being called out as idiots because they wanted Winter gone before the end of the season. We could see there had been a decline, that things werent going as planned, that Winter was inept and impotent in MLS and we specifically did not want to let him finish the season because we needed the next coach to get an off season and not have the traditional 'no offseason' excuse - calling it hindsight is a bit disingenuous when there were lots of us losing friends over screaming for his dismissal.

We should have hired an experienced coach INSTEAD of Winter. Nelsen's appointment, after the same mistake has been made multiple times is baffling.

Thanks for clearing up the salary issue, that makes much more sense.

[ExiledRed]

Mo, Carver, Winter, Mariner, Preki all had significant coaching experience. Nelsen has great connections and instils relentlessness in his players. He may have other weaknesses but be careful what you wish for.

Other than MoJo who stunk up the Red Bulls for a year, not one of them had first team coaching experience that I would call 'significant'

Seriously not getting your point. All of these coaches were practically rookies, none had a proven track record, few had even experienced MLS and its completely different drafting and player pawning system.

What I wish for is someone of Steve Nicol's caliber, who understands the league and has proven he can get good results with limited resources. I know Steve might not be available, but thats the kind of coach we need, not these untested rookies of which Nelsen is one of the least experienced.

[MightyDM]

my point is that all of our coaches, except Nelsen, had significant coaching experience. That's a fact. If you want Steve Nicohol or Bruce Arena, fair enough but it doesn't persuade me when you call Preki and Mariner "rookies" when they clearly were not.



Seriously not getting your point. All of these coaches were practically rookies, none had a proven track record, few had even experienced MLS and its completely different drafting and player pawning system.

What I wish for is someone of Steve Nicol's caliber, who understands the league and has proven he can get good results with limited resources. I know Steve might not be available, but thats the kind of coach we need, not these untested rookies of which Nelsen is one of the least experienced.

[ExiledRed]

my point is that all of our coaches, except Nelsen, had significant coaching experience. That's a fact. If you want Steve Nicohol or Bruce Arena, fair enough but it doesn't persuade me when you call Preki and Mariner "rookies" when they clearly were not.

This is the combined first team coaching experience of both of those coaches.

Two years at Chivas with no playoffs.

Six disastrous months at Plymouth Argyle, resulting in relegation and replacement.

This is not only insignificant first team coaching experience. Its poor experience at that.

Is this the sort of thing you think I mean when I say an experienced coach? Because, yeah...... those there are rookies.

[habstfc]

These numbers don't reflect that it's much harder to get points in MLS in 2013/2014 than it was in 2008-2010.

[Cashcleaner]

We're a mid table team.

Considering the brain trust screwed up and didn't get a decent midfield yet to surround Bradley and feed Defoe, not bad.

Because we're bringing it up, let's take a look at that table shall we?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/Cashcleaner/4e0dd550-b5c0-4ee2-ae5a-d9ce24be8152_zpsfd23a7dc.png?t=1401088689

The club at the top of the table is Seattle with 26 points after 13 games. Bottom is (rightly) occupied by Montreal with 7 points after 11 games. League average is 14.21 points after 11.89 games.

TFC is currently 7th in the East with 13 points after 9 games, and tied for 5th place overall along with Portland and San Jose. Portland has played 12 games thus far. San Jose has 11 under their belt.

One thing to note is that our Points Per Game is 1.44, placing us 9th place overall.

When all is said and done, I think people are right to point out that we are, in fact, a pretty good example of a mid-table club. Where it gets tricky for me is the fact that I think out numbers are somewhat inflated. With the exception of a few games (our 2-0 road win against Columbus is particularly notable), I don't think we're playing as good as our 1.44 PPG suggests, though I do not believe we are in any dire straits, either. More than anything, I think we are playing somewhat below our potential. I mean, look at the line-ups we have been able to field over the past 9 games. For this league, we have a roster that certainly suggests we should be able to compete against top teams. Personally, I really like the fact that we have quite a fee games in hand compared to the rest of the league. Because as this squad continues to play together, I think the weaknesses we have will smooth out at a pace quicker than what our opponents can do to counter our strengths.


I guess we had it good with Carver then???:noidea:

That's what I've always believed. To be honest, he remains my favourite coach for TFC. And I am of the mind that he left mostly due to these two issues: Firstly, he couldn't handle just how incredibly bush-league the league's officiating was along with the multitude of other baffling restrictions placed on coaches and managers. And secondly, when he (rightly) criticized the league and it's aforementioned bush-league practises, his bosses gave him little support (amongst other issues he had with the MLSE brass).

[Abou Sky]

Second best 9 game start in club history after 2 really poor years.

I'll take it.

[Kaz]

I'm actually surprised they don't set the standings during the season by Points per Game rather then total points.

at the end of 34 games the team with the most points per game is going to be the team with the most points and it helps keep the table looking a little more accurate when some teams have played 14 games and others 9.

[ryan]

I'm actually surprised they don't set the standings during the season by Points per Game rather then total points.

at the end of 34 games the team with the most points per game is going to be the team with the most points and it helps keep the table looking a little more accurate when some teams have played 14 games and others 9.

Get out of here with your logic, this is MLS.

[jabbronies]

Uk Managers are clearly some of the best and worst fits for this club.

[Fort York Redcoat]

It wasn't hindsight for a lot of fans who were being called out as idiots because they wanted Winter gone before the end of the season. We could see there had been a decline, that things werent going as planned, that Winter was inept and impotent in MLS and we specifically did not want to let him finish the season because we needed the next coach to get an off season and not have the traditional 'no offseason' excuse - calling it hindsight is a bit disingenuous when there were lots of us losing friends over screaming for his dismissal.

We should have hired an experienced coach INSTEAD of Winter. Nelsen's appointment, after the same mistake has been made multiple times is baffling.

Thanks for clearing up the salary issue, that makes much more sense.

And yet it was hindsight for others. No one should be calling anyone idiots over this be it prophets or die hard believers.

And I agree with you about off-seasons but how often have we EVER been impressed with an off-season. Regardless of the time management had pre-offseason? Even this seasons acquisitions failed to field a team that looked ready for the regular season after preseason concluded. By this I mean no one should NEED more than an off-season to figure out what they want to do. The off-season excuse, I'm sure we agree, is lame- no matter what.

Carver and Cummins both could've got more time but things outside of results soured the position. Mo, Preki and Mariner all knew how MLS worked but didn't know how to win as coach themselves. Following someone else's model without the same determination may have been a common thread in all of them.

[Canary10]

Inexperienced managers are the rule, not the exception in MLS. Taking a quick look at all the teams, 13 managers (give or take) are new and/or very recent and with little coaching experience. That leaves six, two of whom have tons of experience but I would hate to have coaching TFC - Klopas and Yallop. And their teams are not doing particularly well either. Arena, Schmidt and Kinnear are probably the only three in the league now with both experience and an enviable record, with maybe Vermes as well. I would say now that unless those three, or a Bob Bradley were available, there is no one in the league now that I would replace Nelsen with.

[Wooster_TFC]

Some more interesting numbers:

Players 24 or Under

Doneil Henry - 21
Ashtone Morgan - 23
Nick Hagglund - 21
Andrew Weideman - 24
Gilberto - 24
Jordan Hamilton - 18
Quillan Roberts - 19
Kyle Bekker - 23
Jonathan Osorio - 21
Alvaro Rey - 24
Manuel Aparicio - 18
Daniel Lovitz - 22

Players 25 or 26

Ryan Richter - 25
Mark Bloom - 26
Justin Morrow - 26
Jeremy Hall - 25
Joe Bendik - 25
Jackson - 25
Michael Bradley - 26
Collen Warner - 25

[Ultra & Proud]

Some more interesting numbers:

Players 24 or Under

Doneil Henry - 21
Ashtone Morgan - 23
Nick Hagglund - 21
Andrew Weideman - 24
Gilberto - 24
Jordan Hamilton - 18
Quillan Roberts - 19
Kyle Bekker - 23
Jonathan Osorio - 21
Alvaro Rey - 24
Manuel Aparicio - 18
Daniel Lovitz - 22

Players 25 or 26

Ryan Richter - 25
Mark Bloom - 26
Justin Morrow - 26
Jeremy Hall - 25
Joe Bendik - 25
Jackson - 25
Michael Bradley - 26
Collen Warner - 25
I think these numbers are the more important numbers. You look at it and 17 players on our first team are 26 or under. Seeing this makes me believe that we can for once have a solid core going forward. Sure you have Richter and Hall in there but regardless, that is a young base for a MLS squad. Some of our problems come down to this lack of maturity/experience (Henry a lot) and the only things that fix this are time and match minutes. Clearly Bez is thinking long term by the looks of our roster and that's how I would prefer it. I don't need to win every match 3-0 right now like a lot of people on here are on about. I just need growth. Maybe our on the pitch growth isn't great right now with our shitty passing and possession stats but at least we seem to be learning how to win or to at least scrap for points. After the past few managerial debacles I will gladly accept ugly winning than beautiful losing.

[Pookie]

It's the same interesting picture most years. Consider 2010:



Doneil Henry
18


Nicholas Lindsay
18


Oscar Cordon
18


Amadou Sanyang
19


Ashtone Morgan
19


Emmanuel Gomez
20


Fuad Ibrahim
20


Gabe Gala
21


Nana Attakora
21


Joseph Nane
23


Raivis Hščanovičs
23


Jacob Peterson
24


Sam Cronin
24


Stefan Frei
24


Chad Barrett
25


Maxim Usanov
25


Miloš Kočić
25


O'Brian White
25


Nick LaBrocca
26


Ty Harden
26



Or from 2012:



Quillan Roberts
18


Keith Makubuya
19


Matt Stinson
19


Oscar Cordon
19


Nicholas Lindsay
19


Joao Plata
19


Doneil Henry
20


Ashtone Morgan
21


Reggie Lambe
21


Aaron Maund
21


Andrew Wiedeman
22


Luis Silva
23


Jeremy Hall
23


Richard Eckersley
23


Efrain Burgos Jr
23


Logan Emory
24


Eric Avila
24


Quincy Amarikwa
24


Nick Soolsma
24


Dicoy Williams
25


Darren O'Dea
25


Stefan Frei
26


Miloš Kocić
26


Ryan Johnson
27



Young is one thing. Developing is another.

[Wooster_TFC]

2012 is apt to compare against your numbers: 0-9-0

2010 is on par with today's numbers, so is probably decent. Now, how many of those players have established themselves as either bonafide MLS starters, or bench depth that would build a core of players we're talking about? Peterson, Frei, Cronin, Barrett (as much as some don't like it), Labrocca.

Seems like a good solid core of players to me 4 years out, especially considering how much we broked trades and the draft over the last few years.

[Pookie]

2012 is apt to compare against your numbers: 0-9-0

2010 is on par with today's numbers, so is probably decent. Now, how many of those players have established themselves as either bonafide MLS starters, or bench depth that would build a core of players we're talking about? Peterson, Frei, Cronin, Barrett (as much as some don't like it), Labrocca.

Seems like a good solid core of players to me 4 years out, especially considering how much we broked trades and the draft over the last few years.

It could be a very solid core.

Presuming they develop further. Right now, they are names on paper with "prospect" written in the top corner. This is where the team absolutely has to get it right. Development.

I don't fault the coaching staff on much but I don't have a ton of confidence in the group (Nelsen, Bent, Brennan, Oughton, O'Leary) to develop these players. I say that mainly based on their collective lack of coaching experience.

If this is a mid table team, the draft picks we are talking about next year are not going to be high ones. And they won't be high ones for years to come. The team will have to scout and develop the hell out of the guys… becoming the Detroit Red Wings of the MLS.

[ExiledRed]

Inexperienced managers are the rule, not the exception in MLS. Taking a quick look at all the teams, 13 managers (give or take) are new and/or very recent and with little coaching experience. That leaves six, two of whom have tons of experience but I would hate to have coaching TFC - Klopas and Yallop. And their teams are not doing particularly well either. Arena, Schmidt and Kinnear are probably the only three in the league now with both experience and an enviable record, with maybe Vermes as well. I would say now that unless those three, or a Bob Bradley were available, there is no one in the league now that I would replace Nelsen with.

I think that you've just identified six experienced coaches who could have done a better job with this team than any prior manager.

I would throw in Steve Nicol and Hans Backe who would need to be coaxed out of retirement, Jason Kreis who will return to MLS with NYFC (relevant in that he will boost the numbers of experienced coaches when he does)

Nobody is saying an inexperienced coach cant get the job done. The aforementioned Kreis did a great job. What I am saying is that persistently making this team a training ground for rookie coaches and unknown quantities has been a disastrous policy and as we have changed every other policy at least twice, its the last thing left that could be holding us back.

This team needs a coach who knows the league, can promise results and will negotiate with the FO to cut the bullshit in order for him to get the job done. (This is crucial. Every coach we've had has towed the line because hes signed the papers without establishing rules. We need a coach who can confidently say to FO "keep the fuck out of my selection policy, man management, style, formation, discipline etc... make sure i have final say in all signings and transfers and I can make this work. Otherwise it wont work."

Inexperienced coaches dont do this. Theyre too scared.

[jloome]

I think that you've just identified six experienced coaches who could have done a better job with this team than any prior manager.

I would throw in Steve Nicol and Hans Backe who would need to be coaxed out of retirement, Jason Kreis who will return to MLS with NYFC (relevant in that he will boost the numbers of experienced coaches when he does)

Nobody is saying an inexperienced coach cant get the job done. The aforementioned Kreis did a great job. What I am saying is that persistently making this team a training ground for rookie coaches and unknown quantities has been a disastrous policy and as we have changed every other policy at least twice, its the last thing left that could be holding us back.

This team needs a coach who knows the league, can promise results and will negotiate with the FO to cut the bullshit in order for him to get the job done. (This is crucial. Every coach we've had has towed the line because hes signed the papers without establishing rules. We need a coach who can confidently say to FO "keep the fuck out of my selection policy, man management, style, formation, discipline etc... make sure i have final say in all signings and transfers and I can make this work. Otherwise it wont work."

Inexperienced coaches dont do this. Theyre too scared.

Octavio Zambrano produced the most impressive offense-oriented football this league has ever seen and won the title; last I heard he was coaching in Latin America. I don't think Nichol's coaching right now, either. Christ, there are so many out-of-work-but-qualified coaches out there it's astonishing we've never managed, even once, to go that route.

[jloome]

It's the same interesting picture most years. Consider 2010:



Doneil Henry
18


Nicholas Lindsay
18


Oscar Cordon
18


Amadou Sanyang
19


Ashtone Morgan
19


Emmanuel Gomez
20


Fuad Ibrahim
20


Gabe Gala
21


Nana Attakora
21


Joseph Nane
23


Raivis Hščanovičs
23


Jacob Peterson
24


Sam Cronin
24


Stefan Frei
24


Chad Barrett
25


Maxim Usanov
25


Miloš Kočić
25


O'Brian White
25


Nick LaBrocca
26


Ty Harden
26



Or from 2012:



Quillan Roberts
18


Keith Makubuya
19


Matt Stinson
19


Oscar Cordon
19


Nicholas Lindsay
19


Joao Plata
19


Doneil Henry
20


Ashtone Morgan
21


Reggie Lambe
21


Aaron Maund
21


Andrew Wiedeman
22


Luis Silva
23


Jeremy Hall
23


Richard Eckersley
23


Efrain Burgos Jr
23


Logan Emory
24


Eric Avila
24


Quincy Amarikwa
24


Nick Soolsma
24


Dicoy Williams
25


Darren O'Dea
25


Stefan Frei
26


Miloš Kocić
26


Ryan Johnson
27



Young is one thing. Developing is another.

I wonder if one of the reasons we've never had a solid core of MLS veterans is that MLSE thought developing and selling footballers, particularly after Edu, was more important than the right lineup.

[lobo]

It wasn't hindsight for a lot of fans who were being called out as idiots because they wanted Winter gone before the end of the season. We could see there had been a decline, that things werent going as planned, that Winter was inept and impotent in MLS and we specifically did not want to let him finish the season because we needed the next coach to get an off season and not have the traditional 'no offseason' excuse - calling it hindsight is a bit disingenuous when there were lots of us losing friends over screaming for his dismissal.

We should have hired an experienced coach INSTEAD of Winter. Nelsen's appointment, after the same mistake has been made multiple times is baffling.

Thanks for clearing up the salary issue, that makes much more sense.

Exiled, this is the statement you made in your earlier post, that I said was based in hindsight:


"Winter's dysfunction(sic) continued for one year more than it should, because of blind support and 'philosophers' (as Mourinho would call them) who were calling for patience in the face of clear incompetence."

At the end of 2011 season, no one could have possibly known (or predicted) we would start 2012 with 9 straight losses, therefore any analysis you make based on that fact, is using hindsight. Sorry, it is what it is. I know many people were not happy with Winter's style and plan, but at the end of 2011 most people saw things in a positive light for all the reasons I previously posted, which were all facts and accomplishments, and not the stuff of "blind support and philosophers" as you suggest. Again, I do not discount the criticisms, but I suggest they were mostly subjective opinions about style and tactics, much like we see today regarding Nelsen. But then, just as now, there were enough positive signs coming through with a 2nd year coach that justified continuation. There was no glaring or obvious dysfunction or incompetence then (end of 2011) or now to justify abandonment and restart. You and some others voiced your concerns, and you may have been proven correct in hindsight. But I don't think opinions about Winter are very relevant to Nelsen in 2014, primarily because it was not simply a matter of an "inept and impotent" Winter and his dutch 4-3-3 plan that failed. As I understand it, it was more a by-product of a totally dysfunctional management team, with Winter, Mariner, Cochrane, and Anselmi all contributing to the disaster. That is where the real problem lay then. Winter was just the figurehead of a larger fuck up.

To be honest, I think we had a better tactical coach with Winter than we do with Nelsen, but we now have a better management team than the Mo/Anselmi years. In the bigger picture, I think we are better off now.

Are you seeing the same dysfunction with today's management team you saw then? Do you see a long losing streak in our future? Or are we again just debating adjustable styles and tactical plans (or lack thereof)?

My opinion on Nelsen's tactics is not favourable. I hate that we play a counter-attack game that lacks much counter attacking. But we have 13 points to start Nelsen's second season compared to 0 points for Winter at the same time. I fully agree we should have hired a proven experienced coach (after each of Preki, Winter, Mariner). But that falls on management again. I also completely agree with you that we should cut ties with Nelsen, sooner rather than later, if he is judged to be incompetent and serving up dysfunction. And that falls on our new management team to determine . For me, there doesn't appear to be a solid case to be made for it, and the risk seems high with a new coach and another rebuild cycle. Nelsen's football is ugly and simplistic, our attack doesn't just lack ability but it seems to lack intent. And yet, it is achieving results. No matter how you look at it, you have to admit there is improvement. Isn't that enough to justify continuing, especially when no one has any appetite for another coaching restart. Just because things were ugly under inexperienced Winter/Mariner, does not mean we will see the same result under inexperienced Nelsen.

My apologies for this lengthy post, but I must admit, writing it was somewhat cathartic for me. I have been angry and impatient for a long time, and I think I just adapted to a philosophy of patience. Fuck, I hope it lasts.

[Pookie]

I wonder if one of the reasons we've never had a solid core of MLS veterans is that MLSE thought developing and selling footballers, particularly after Edu, was more important than the right lineup.

Intriguing question.

To develop though they would actually have to put some effort into that. The Academy and the practice facilities never came until 2011 (after league mandate). For 4 years there was nothing.

I think they liked the idea of the selling part but don't really think it was a focus.

So why no core?

I tend to think that they borrowed from the culture of their other teams. The win now philosophy in that people don't complain about prices when the team is winning, they will pay to see a winner. That and extra playoff dates mean that winning is very good for profit.

The hockey team has a marvellous track record of trading draft picks for veteran players. Or rushing young players to the NHL and then giving up on them if they couldn't produce immediately.

We have seen that quite a bit over the years. From Hassli for a 1st round pick or many on the above lists jettisoned as they didn't have the impact that was needed.

Of course the revolving door of managers didn't help either. Win now or you are done contributes to moves like Hassli.

I feel like we have never had a solid core because the ownership had revenue dreams that needed immediate results to justify them. So managers make moves with only the short term in mind. Combined with very little focus on development... There we are

[lobo]

first nine games ... :yikes:

http://www.myparkingsign.com/img/lg/K/Bus-Parking-Only-Sign-K-8386.gif

[jabbronies]

This team needs a coach who knows the league, can promise results and will negotiate with the FO to cut the bullshit in order for him to get the job done. (This is crucial. Every coach we've had has towed the line because hes signed the papers without establishing rules. We need a coach who can confidently say to FO "keep the fuck out of my selection policy, man management, style, formation, discipline etc... make sure i have final say in all signings and transfers and I can make this work. Otherwise it wont work."

Inexperienced coaches dont do this. Theyre too scared.

Why don't you think we have this already?
I get the inexperienced bit, but this bolded section seems like you are making up stuff just to prove a point.

[ExiledRed]

Why don't you think we have this already?
I get the inexperienced bit, but this bolded section seems like you are making up stuff just to prove a point.

Inexperienced coaches dont have the the weight to negotiate with a corporate entity like MLSE for the right to make executive decisions regarding the squad, signings and also to prevent harmful interference from upstairs. They just dont.

Why would a corporation sign over that kind of control to someone who has no track record to point to? It would be madness.

Nicol on the other hand could say, 'we do it my way, because my way got an underfunded team in the mls cup finals like every fucking year last decade, and im also one of the most decorated ex-players in the world, so i know my football. Otherwise, im not interested.'

That might answer Jloome's question as to why they havent gone that route. Theyre not prepared to surrender the kind of control, experienced managers are asking for.

[jabbronies]

Inexperienced coaches dont have the the weight to negotiate with a corporate entity like MLSE for the right to make executive decisions regarding the squad, signings and also to prevent harmful interference from upstairs. They just dont.

Why would a corporation sign over that kind of control to someone who has no track record to point to? It would be madness.

Nicol on the other hand could say, 'we do it my way, because my way got an underfunded team in the mls cup finals like every fucking year last decade, and im also one of the most decorated ex-players in the world, so i know my football. Otherwise, im not interested.'

That might answer Jloome's question as to why they havent gone that route. Theyre not prepared to surrender the kind of control, experienced managers are asking for.

Didn't Mo Johnson, Aron Winter and Paul Mariner all have that control?

[ExiledRed]

Didn't Mo Johnson, Aron Winter and Paul Mariner all have that control?

I do not believe they did

[jabbronies]

I do not believe they did

and why is that?

I mean it couldn't have been Anselmi's idea to bring in Andrew Weideman, or sign Eckersley as the most expensive defender in the league, or to bring in Frings and Koevermans...? or to constantly be turning over players for years on end? Or to dub Andy Iro as the best left footed defender in the league? or was it?

[Cashcleaner]

Inexperienced coaches dont have the the weight to negotiate with a corporate entity like MLSE for the right to make executive decisions regarding the squad, signings and also to prevent harmful interference from upstairs. They just dont.

Why would a corporation sign over that kind of control to someone who has no track record to point to? It would be madness.

Nicol on the other hand could say, 'we do it my way, because my way got an underfunded team in the mls cup finals like every fucking year last decade, and im also one of the most decorated ex-players in the world, so i know my football. Otherwise, im not interested.'

That might answer Jloome's question as to why they havent gone that route. Theyre not prepared to surrender the kind of control, experienced managers are asking for.

You can agree with Exiled's overall points or not, but I don't anyone can dispute how the MLSE board and it's executive corps likes to micro-manage it's labour assets. We know of a few stories of this type of interference happening since our inaugural season. How many others have there been that didn't become public?

It would be very believable to make a claim that we've only ever hired on relatively inexperienced or "malleable" coaches/managers specifically because they were willing to give up some managerial control to their superiors.

[MartinUtd]

Holy crap... Andy Iro!! I forgot about him... and his undeserved plaudits. I just looked him up and he's without a club after playing 9 games in Conference for Barnet last year and his apparently working in marketing for a taxi app company called Uber now.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/andyiro

[ensco]

Holy crap... Andy Iro!! I forgot about him... and his undeserved plaudits. I just looked him up and he's without a club after playing 9 games in Conference for Barnet last year and his apparently working in marketing for a taxi app company called Uber now.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/andyiro

Jeez, good for him. Uber is a rocketship, that is a great job.

[ensco]

Exiled is pretty much right. I think Mo had complete control at the very beginning. But he lost it after the first season, when he brought Carver in (and Anselmi et al suddenly decided they were geniuses because BMO was selling out) and never regained it, nor did anyone after him. I thought Payne had it, but Nelsen's knifing of Payne proved that wrong pretty quickly!

It's not about who picks or signs Andrew Wiedeman. It's about who signs the bigger players (it's rarely been the manager here, and sure isn't now), because that is how loyalty flows, and it's about a million little things, all of which wind up in the room and manifest themselves on the field.

For the moment, things are better than they have been on this front, Nelsen is clearly the man in most respects, and obviously has the most knowledge of anyone in the room at TFC. But I can't get the image of all those on-field arguments in the New England game out of my head - that may turn out to have meant something.

None of it matters if the players don't really believe. The tactics tell me the coach doesn't trust the players. My experience in life tells me the feeling may be mutual.

[MightyDM]

You can agree with Exiled's overall points or not, but I don't anyone can dispute how the MLSE board and it's executive corps likes to micro-manage it's labour assets. We know of a few stories of this type of interference happening since our inaugural season. How many others have there been that didn't become public?

It would be very believable to make a claim that we've only ever hired on relatively inexperienced or "malleable" coaches/managers specifically because they were willing to give up some managerial control to their superiors.

How about we look at our actual history? We have never hired a Bruce Arena or Steve Nicol. True, and there is an argument to do that, but there are very very few of those types - maybe two or three who are clear successes - the others, like Frank Yallop, have question marks as well as experience.

Mo - well travelled, like him or not, he had been around. Carver ( who was a good coach IMO, as the record shows) had good coaching experience at high levels and caretaker stints with Newcastle and Leeds. Not a rookie but not a proven MLS winner, although his teams did well. Cummins was a temp. But did well too. Preki had head coaching experience in MLS and got results, although he needlessly threw good players (Cronin, Guevara) away. His hire, to me, was an over reaction to the collapse under Cummins v. NY, and appears to have been Mo's call. Dasovic was a temp but did OK. Front office took over for the Winter hiring and messed up the power structure with Mariner, Cochrane and Winter apparently in a power struggle. Winter had excellent technical experience but no MLS, brought us the amazing champions league run but couldn't get his teams to defend. Mariner did well for a while, then didn't. As others have mentioned, Nelsen was hired as part of a deliberate strategy by Payne to grow a young team with a talented but inexperienced coach. Looking back, the front office should have hired an Arena or a Payne when they hired Winter because that appears to be the only time they intervened - otherwise it was Mo (Carver, Preki) or Payne (Nelsen) making the decision. distilling this history into a blanket statement of "all were rookies" or "front office didn't want to give up power" isn't accurate and implies that Mo and Payne made decisions for the same reason, which isn't credible.

[MightyDM]

Exiled is pretty much right. I think Mo had complete control at the very beginning. But he lost it when he brought Carver in, and never regained it, nor did anyone after him. I thought Payne had it, but Nelsen's knifing of Payne proved that wrong pretty quickly!

It's not about who picks or signs Andrew Wiedeman. It's about who signs the bigger players (it's rarely been the manager here, and sure isn't now), because that is how loyalty flows, and it's about a million little things, all of which wind up in the room and manifest themselves on the field.

Because it all seemingly runs through Nelsen, for the moment, things are better than they have been on this front in terms of the model. But I can't get the image of all those on-field arguments in the New England game out of my head - that may turn out to have meant something.

None of it matters if the players don't really believe. The tactics tell me the coach doesn't trust the players. My experience in life tells me the feeling may be mutual.

You may have something there. Osorio has had tantrums in several games, and players have yelled at Becker in the game at least twice, and Rey was upset being taken out. Given his lack of service, Defoe has been pretty restrained, I think. On the other hand, the players are showing real joy when they win (Cesar especially) and it is hard to imagine a comeback against KC if they aren't playing for him.

Nelsen doesn't trust his midfield. Can you blame him?

[brad]

Didn't Mo Johnson, Aron Winter and Paul Mariner all have that control?

Winter never did. He had Mariner and Cochrane actively working against him - they were blocking the signing of players that Winter wanted and signing their own guys.

[Cashcleaner]

Exiled is pretty much right. I think Mo had complete control at the very beginning. But he lost it after the first season, when he brought Carver in (and Anselmi et al suddenly decided they were geniuses because BMO was selling out) and never regained it, nor did anyone after him. I thought Payne had it, but Nelsen's knifing of Payne proved that wrong pretty quickly!


That reminds me, does anyone remember the name of the agency Mo was almost exclusively negotiating through for players? Can't remember the name, but it was incredible how he was able to get away with it for so long.

[Shakes McQueen]

It could be a very solid core.

Presuming they develop further. Right now, they are names on paper with "prospect" written in the top corner. This is where the team absolutely has to get it right. Development.

I don't fault the coaching staff on much but I don't have a ton of confidence in the group (Nelsen, Bent, Brennan, Oughton, O'Leary) to develop these players. I say that mainly based on their collective lack of coaching experience.

If this is a mid table team, the draft picks we are talking about next year are not going to be high ones. And they won't be high ones for years to come. The team will have to scout and develop the hell out of the guys… becoming the Detroit Red Wings of the MLS.

I think we are a little above-average, lineup wise. I think we may be slightly below-average, coaching-wise - at least so far.

Personally, I think my pre-season prediction still stands - we are good enough to make the playoffs, but probably not much beyond that. For that, we will need to cultivate depth through the draft, and some unsexy trading/signing.

I also suspect - and I'll gladly go out on a limb here - that Nelsen has 10 games left, give or take, to get these guys playing more consistently decent football, or he will be gone. Tim L didn't spend all of that money, and then spend a month crowing about it to the press, just to have Ryan Nelsen elevate them back to Cummins/Carver-style mediocrity.

[Pookie]

That reminds me, does anyone remember the name of the agency Mo was almost exclusively negotiating through for players? Can't remember the name, but it was incredible how he was able to get away with it for so long.

Wasn't it First Wave?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Wasn't it First Wave?

Indeed.