Gilberto Ongoing Discussion Thread

[MartinUtd]

Okay, it's been 10 games (including V-cup) and I think enough time has passed that we can begin to have the conversation of what to do with Gilberto.

Do we give him more time? If so are we doing that because of the sunk cost fallacy?
Do we trade/cut him and open up the DP slot?
Or a third option that I haven't considered?

I've been on board with him getting more time to adjust to the league, but after some of the displays my patience is wearing thin. I see a man with 0 confidence and it was especially stark in the 2nd whitecaps game. There was a play where he was running in on goal and rather than take his shot, he cut wide and couldn't finish his chance. Contrast that with Defoe who admittedly is in a different class, but he can create space when being triple teamed and still get a shot off. I'd expect a $1.5m DP to be me more threatening than some of our previous discards.

I do appreciate that he drops deep when pressure is on, but that's not what we paid him for. Wiedeman can do that and Jeremy Brockie/Ryan Johnson/Chad Barrett can run around like a headless chicken and apply pressure up top while not finishing their chances.

He's reminding me of Altidore at Sunderland; if Gilberto can't bag a goal within another month I think we need to cut our losses. It's not like he hasn't had the chances and management knows this. Why else is he being subbed off earlier and earlier these days?

[Pint]

Give him more time... Dempsey scored 1 goal in like 12 or 13 games last season and now is tearing the league apart.

It takes time to get used to the style of play here.

[Canary10]

Do you mean does he go to ground too easily or has he bombed as a player?

[Ivy]

Gilberto isn't going anywhere. #GetUsedToIt

[Kaz]

I'm annoyed that he hasn't scored, but he is contributing at least. He has the yips I think.. it will pass. Totally new climate, city, and style of play... and we counter attack like grade schoolers for 80 minutes a game leaving him with little or no service. I have a feeling Nelsen will get canned before Gilberto does. I'd give him at least 20 games. It would be different if he wasn't contributing at all.

[brad]

Many players take time to adjust to new teams.

Many player take time to adjust to new leagues.

South American players often time - upwards of a year to adjust to the MLS.

Let's ask this question next time this year.

[jabbronies]

I wouldn't cut him loose just yet,, But so far he is a flop and he deserves the flak he gets for it.

He is a designated player. The guy is missing chances that any "Real striker" should be converting.
By "Real striker" I mean guys who are paid to score goals. Gilberto is getting paid as a striker. He should be scoring goals.

We gave up a proven midfielder who is being considered a potential MLS all star to keep him on the team.
Matias Laba is a south American player who came in last season and made an impact right away, even with being on a shitty team.

Gilberto is not scoring, and at times, getting in the way of others potential scoring opportunities.
He is currently a stain on this new managements signing record.

A high priced signing of a relatively unknown player who is not living up to expectations.
Keep him as long as you feel you need to develop him, but keep in mind if we are loosing games 1-0 and 2-1, dropping in the standings later in the season (August/September) and he is still not scoring, you have to start questioning his worth to this club.

Chad Barrett is a cheaper alternative who does the same thing he is doing right now.

[mcolvy]

Hmm. I kind of agree with everyone here. He forsure is not worth his $1.5M price tag, adjusting or not the flashes I have seen is of a good player, but not that much money. That part is simple, as we surely super overpaid to get his services, however for us as fans, the only number we shuld care about is the $387,500 of the cap that he takes up and for that, it is still up for debate in my mind. But, at the same time we do need to wait and see how he adjusts and give him time.

But, again there are no flashes of 1.5M, is he worth the $387,500 is still up for debate.

[2mil4dero+santo]

I think Gilberto's a great player who's just had some bad luck with chances and his confidence has taken a hit. Once the goals start going in, no one will be asking if he's a flop any more, thats what I hope...

[MartinUtd]

Do you mean does he go to ground too easily or has he bombed as a player?

I was referring that end to end run that ended with a low cross to nobody. It was a bad example because I thought he was closer to the middle and cut wide but on second viewing he wasn't that central to begin with. Bad example, poor choice of words.

[2mil4dero+santo]

Many players take time to adjust to new teams.

Many player take time to adjust to new leagues.

South American players often time - upwards of a year to adjust to the MLS.

Let's ask this question next time this year.

So what you're saying is you won't know if he's a good player or not until a year from now? Why what takes so long?
I made up my mind after a few games that Gilberto has the talent and is a good player worthy of the dp price tag. You can agree or not but I don't think it takes 1-1/2 years to form an opinion. All this talk of "gelling" and giving time is being blown out of proportion. Yes, time is needed, but only a month or two, not years...

[molenshtain]

So what you're saying is you won't know if he's a good player or not until a year from now? Why what takes so long?
I made up my mind after a few games that Gilberto has the talent and is a good player worthy of the dp price tag. You can agree or not but I don't think it takes 1-1/2 years to form an opinion. All this talk of "gelling" and giving time is being blown out of proportion. Yes, time is needed, but only a month or two, not years...


Might take a few months for a few aspects of the team to gel but it will take us a few years to fully develop into a team that has enough in it's arsenal to challenge for a championship.

[2mil4dero+santo]

Might take a few months for a few aspects of the team to gel but it will take us a few years to fully develop into a team that has enough in it's arsenal to challenge for a championship.

Maybe, but it doesn't take 2 years to decide if a players good or not.

[MartinUtd]

So what you're saying is you won't know if he's a good player or not until a year from now? Why what takes so long?
I made up my mind after a few games that Gilberto has the talent and is a good player worthy of the dp price tag. You can agree or not but I don't think it takes 1-1/2 years to form an opinion. All this talk of "gelling" and giving time is being blown out of proportion. Yes, time is needed, but only a month or two, not years...

That's exactly the point I wanted to make. How much time is enough? After 10 games I think it's a good time to start the conversation. Yes, he's a new player in the league and he could end up pulling a Dempsey or Camilo (who is available, btw). I don't want to dump him yet either, but I think if there's another two months of this, he's as good as gone.

Gilberto has the 9th highest salary in MLS at $1.14-1.21m. There's a lot of guys on league max that are doing what he's doing, but better.

[MartinUtd]

He is a designated player. The guy is missing chances that any "Real striker" should be converting.

Like that open net miss in the 16th minute? If Wright-Phillips hadn't blown a more incredible chance then I think we'd be talking about Gilberto's.

[Villa TFC]

Gilberto may not have scored yet, but no one can criticise his effort or his attitude. The guy works so hard, tackles back and runs his legs off. Yes, he's missed a few decent chances, but it's not like he's squandering dozens of golden opportunities a game. Defoe is a phenomenal finisher who's practically unique in this league for being able to close a quarter-chance, but the reality is that neither he nor Gilberto are getting great service from the rest of the team. The difference is that while Defoe takes most of his chances, Gilberto's clearly lost his confidence and is a little gun-shy. One goal should correct that and I can easily see him still scoring a bucketful this season. Now, I can understand why on DP money there might be some impatience to start seeing him do what he was brought in to do, but when you watch the effort he puts in every single week, you can see that he's not goalless because he doesn't care. I'm still confident that he'll come good, and soon.


We gave up a proven midfielder who is being considered a potential MLS all star to keep him on the team.
Matias Laba is a south American player who came in last season and made an impact right away, even with being on a shitty team.

Laba was not given up for Gilberto. Laba was given up for Bradley. Gilberto and Laba are completely unrelated. The question is whether we should have gone for Bradley when the opportunity arose. As much as I am desperately sorry that we lost Laba, I still think that was the right decision and I am still hoping against hope that we see Laba return to us next season.

[ag futbol]

I'm not going to predict whether he works out or not, but be wary of making bold predictions on strikers that are new to the league before 6-12 months. Adjustment period can be significant.

People wrote off Marco DiVaio after 1/2 a season and he put in a boatload of goals the next year.

[Canary10]

Gilberto may not have scored yet, but no one can criticise his effort or his attitude. The guy works so hard, tackles back and runs his legs off. Yes, he's missed a few decent chances, but it's not like he's squandering dozens of golden opportunities a game. Defoe is a phenomenal finisher who's practically unique in this league for being able to close a quarter-chance, but the reality is that neither he nor Gilberto are getting great service from the rest of the team. The difference is that while Defoe takes most of his chances, Gilberto's clearly lost his confidence and is a little gun-shy. One goal should correct that and I can easily see him still scoring a bucketful this season. Now, I can understand why on DP money there might be some impatience to start seeing him do what he was brought in to do, but when you watch the effort he puts in every single week, you can see that he's not goalless because he doesn't care. I'm still confident that he'll come good, and soon.



Laba was not given up for Gilberto. Laba was given up for Bradley. Gilberto and Laba are completely unrelated. The question is whether we should have gone for Bradley when the opportunity arose. As much as I am desperately sorry that we lost Laba, I still think that was the right decision and I am still hoping against hope that we see Laba return to us next season.

Because TFC can't dump a player a few weeks after signing him, right?

[BuSaPuNk]

I'm not going to predict whether he works out or not, but be wary of making bold predictions on strikers that are new to the league before 6-12 months. Adjustment period can be significant.

People wrote off Marco DiVaio after 1/2 a season and he put in a boatload of goals the next year.

Exactly.

DiVaio, Dempsey, Martins, ect theve all had a hard time adjusting to the leauge but when they found it out they were and are great goal scorers.

First people complain we give up on players too soon Plata, Cronin, Urruti, but now you want to move a guy 10 games in. Doesn't make sense. Give the guy time. As soon as he gets his first and gets confidence in this leauge he will start scoring in bucket loads.

[Cashcleaner]

I wouldn't cut him loose just yet,, But so far he is a flop and he deserves the flak he gets for it.

He is a designated player. The guy is missing chances that any "Real striker" should be converting.
By "Real striker" I mean guys who are paid to score goals. Gilberto is getting paid as a striker. He should be scoring goals.

We gave up a proven midfielder who is being considered a potential MLS all star to keep him on the team.
Matias Laba is a south American player who came in last season and made an impact right away, even with being on a shitty team.

Gilberto is not scoring, and at times, getting in the way of others potential scoring opportunities.
He is currently a stain on this new managements signing record.

A high priced signing of a relatively unknown player who is not living up to expectations.
Keep him as long as you feel you need to develop him, but keep in mind if we are loosing games 1-0 and 2-1, dropping in the standings later in the season (August/September) and he is still not scoring, you have to start questioning his worth to this club.

Chad Barrett is a cheaper alternative who does the same thing he is doing right now.

Pretty much this.

jloome and others have made good points about Gilberto's contributions aside from scoring goals, but I'm pretty much of the same opinion as you - he was brought in to score goal goals, and that's what he is absolutely not doing.

As for needing time to adjust to the league and getting a feel for the team, every player from outside NA has to deal with that in some manner. But we've had a multitude of players who have done just that and acclimatized themselves relatively quickly. So the question is, why can't Gilberto?

[ExiledRed]

Might take a few months for a few aspects of the team to gel but it will take us a few years to fully develop into a team that has enough in it's arsenal to challenge for a championship.

We've had eight. We cant just hit the reset button and start this 'few years' building approach every single year.
This is MLS, a competitive team does not take years and years to build. The concept is redundant given the turnover.

Your next argument should be that we have never given a coach 'a few years' and it would be valid. Here is truth. But...

Challenging for a championship requires a coach who believes it can be done. Winter didnt believe, you could see it in his frightened eyes. Carver's frustration and excuses were a red flag and Cummins didnt care. Cummins was of the opinion that we were unavoidably mediocre and our priority therefore was youth development. He got that from Carver, another mediocre mid table man manager who benched Dichio to develop Chad Barrett. Preki had to go with Mojo. They could not be kept. Everybody else was an interim.

Other teams all have to deal with these same issues, we are not the only team that gets new players or coaches. We are not the only team whos players have to learn how to work together.

Your 'few years' argument was old when Mojo left, nobody since has shown the acumen to allow us to confidently say 'this will take a few years, give him time'

You never present the danger of allowing somebody a few years of 'building' only to realize in year four that you are no closer than you were, and you now have to give it 'another few years' with somebody different.

Progress needs to be monitored. Improvement needs to be obvious. Otherwise 'a few years' is just stalling bullshit and buying time to fix mistakes.

Manchester United were very smart to remove Moyes. They didnt expect him to win a single trophy this year, they gave him all the slack he needed, but they monitored his progress the whole time and were not satisfied with the results. They didnt need to give him a few years to 'see' . They could 'see' the decline in morale and performances with their own eyes. they didnt say 'well, thats football, it takes a few years and anybody who says different doesnt know anything about football'

They fired him and found a proven coach with a winning track record. They'll be back in the top four next year.

[Alixir]

I think he has just had some terrible luck. I feel that when he finally buries one and gets that monkey off his back that he will prove his worth.

[jabbronies]

Laba was not given up for Gilberto. Laba was given up for Bradley. Gilberto and Laba are completely unrelated. The question is whether we should have gone for Bradley when the opportunity arose. As much as I am desperately sorry that we lost Laba, I still think that was the right decision and I am still hoping against hope that we see Laba return to us next season.

Yes I've heard this before from TL and crew. But the reality is Laba was the 4th DP on the roster.

Sure position for position you line Bradley up with Laba and say that we gave up one for the other, but Bradley and Defoe are both the types of players who DP money commands - High profile Internationals. They are no brainers - you sign them when they come available.

Gilberto and Laba are the same because they are unknown gambles in the DP rehlm. You pay a lot of money and it may work, it may not.
They gambled on Gilberto rather than keep Laba IMO

[ExiledRed]

oh... Gilberto thread....

yeah, he's got some funky curse. I have no confidence in this guy, and he has none in front of goal.

[ExiledRed]

I think he has just had some terrible luck. I feel that when he finally buries one and gets that monkey off his back that he will prove his worth.

This is what we said about every unproven striker we ever paid big bucks for.

We also said it about Chad Barrett, who to be fair, scored a few crackers, yet remained a legendary misser of sitters throughout his tenure.

Have you seen this guy in front of goal? You can almost hear him thinking, and it sounds like 'ohshitohshitohshitohshitohsitohshit'

[jloome]

Yes I've heard this before from TL and crew. But the reality is Laba was the 4th DP on the roster.

Sure position for position you line Bradley up with Laba and say that we gave up one for the other, but Bradley and Defoe are both the types of players who DP money commands - High profile Internationals. They are no brainers - you sign them when they come available.

Gilberto and Laba are the same because they are unknown gambles in the DP rehlm. You pay a lot of money and it may work, it may not.
They gambled on Gilberto rather than keep Laba IMO

I've argued this myself. But the practical reality is you can't cut someone loose you've just signed without paying through the nose and beyond that, it would make our already spotty reputation ever spottier.

Gilberto is a good all-around player, better technique, passing, movement, ball retention etc than the other players on our team.

Problematically he seems very streaky. This was true at Internacional, too, and you have to wonder if that's why they had no problem letting him go despite a good season.

Look at his goals online and quite a few seem to be fairly out-of-the-ordinary. But perhaps it's worrisome that most AREN'T ordinary, as it's basically good looks he's been blowing, and a couple of sitters.

Is he worth a DP deal? Sure. until we can be certain he won't come good, and eight games isn't nearly enough. I wouldn't pay him 1.5M a year, but that doesn't hit the cap anyway. And his all-around game looks like the real deal ... minus finishing.

[MartinUtd]

Nobody is saying "get rid of him now" at least not in this thread. ExildedRed made a great comment about monitoring progress. We have a decent sample size for his introduction into the league. Now let`s see if things can get better from here.

Here`s the miss I was talking about earlier:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txcVCR7G9XE&t=2m18s

[jloome]

I'd also add that he has to start scoring for another reason: we don't play a 4-3-3, and a guy whose best role is "target forward" in the Heskey/Duncan Ferguson mode isn't going to do us much good.

[Pookie]

The immediate results expectation rears its head again.

Do you guys want to be a perennial contender or simply just throw another band aid on an old problem? If you are the band aid variety, "cut your losses" on Gilberto and roll the dice on someone else.

For the better part of 8 years, the formula for team building has been:

- new coach/manager
- 2-3 DPs to cover up lack of depth
- Waiver and/or re-entry draft pick ups
- trades
- lather, rinse repeat for the next season

Not one manager, aside from Mo early on, has ever focused on drafting AND developing those picks.

If TFC cannot turn Gilberto, a proven goal scorer from the places were goal scorers are good, into a goal scoring MLS player… what hope do we have of ever developing a player?

This is a development league for pete's sake. If the staff cannot help a player find their form, improve and excel on the team with the highest payroll in MLS, we are in trouble. Take the eyes off Gilberto and ask what is the development staff doing to help this guy? Not just Nelsen but O'Leary, Brennan, Bent, Oughton. Bent and Brennan never coached before joining TFC. Oughton has just 3 years experience as an assistant technical director and assistant coach.

Gilberto is underperforming relative to his history. He is young. Help him figure it out and if you can't help him figure it out, let's help this development staff find someplace else to be successful.

[MartinUtd]

Pookie, you're taking my concerns to a comical extreme. I can do that too.

Do you want to be that loser team that takes too long to acclimate players who are in fact, dead weight? How long is enough before you can no longer bear the constant humiliations of being a high priced bottom feeder?

[Jings]

I think we are going to see Gilberto with 15 goals by the end of the season. Not only Is he adjusting to a new league he has the language problem also.

[flatpicker]

I don't think there's much that can be done except keep playing him and hope things turn around. Then, when the season is over, reassess and make a change if needed. He needs to improve, no question, but so does most of the team. If we had better service to our strikers then Gilberto would probably have a couple of goals by now and Defoe would probably have 7 or 8!

http://www.garyscomputerservice.com/images/service.jpg

[Derko]

My opinion only, I think the thread is good discussion, but I think Gilberto just can't buy a goal. He has had at least 7 almosts, and one crossbar with a beautiful strike, 1 goal and I think the bubble will burst and will be producing, and as others have said Service is key.

[ExiledRed]

He has had at least 7 almosts, and one crossbar with a beautiful strike, 1 goal and I think the bubble will burst and will be producing, and as others have said Service is key.

This bubble is mythical. Strikers either have a killer instinct or they dont. Gilberto doesnt seem to.
He hesitates and he makes bad decisions in front of goal, service is not the issue. In the Colorado game, the players were bending over backwards to give him his opportunity, he messed every chance and it cost us the game.

Pookie, this is a DP, not some kid from the academy. We should not have to teach him how to maintain confidence and score goals.

He might me a good player, and he might be a worthy MLS player, but he is not DP material and that is the bottom line.

[Pookie]

Pookie, you're taking my concerns to a comical extreme. I can do that too.

Do you want to be that loser team that takes too long to acclimate players who are in fact, dead weight? How long is enough before you can no longer bear the constant humiliations of being a high priced bottom feeder?

The thing is, TFC have always been a high priced bottom feeder. They have constant player turnover... many, many players with less than a year with the club over our history. They rely on DPs to make up for not having homegrown or drafted talent.

We could keep doing the same thing or maybe try a little patience and invest some money in player development to you know, actually help the guys develop and come out of slumps.

Part 2

What's the harm in Gilberto not finding form this year? A playoff miss and a subsequent high draft pick?

Sure beats playoffs misses an no draft picks.

[nlsanand]

He's a flop as a striker at the money we're paying him. But that said, I wouldn't cut him, he's better than starting Wiedemann for all of the other stuff that he does. But we cannot simply ignore his total lack of finishing. He's whiffed on a couple of good chances. That's not due to acclamation issues, it's an inability to pull the trigger. In other words, criticism has been warranted but we shouldn't overreact.

[Thomas]

This is a good thread, and it is healthy to be asking these questions. I'd give him more time. He has too much going for him to be cutting him loose now. It would be premature to call him a flop now. Look how long it has taken others to adjust to MLS.

[Areathrasher]

10 games and he is a flop?? Jesus Christ....

The guy is clearly an excellent footballer and he has scored goals in competitions that are at levels above MLS (Brasilero, Copa Lib), he will score.

[Pookie]

Speaking of asking questions, why can't the coaches get more out of this guy given his proven history?

Could it be related to this:

Nelsen - no prior coaching experience before TFC
Brennan - no prior coaching experience before TFC
Bent - no prior coaching experience before TFC
O'Leary - NCAA coaching experience
Oughton - retired player in 2010. 3 years experience as assistant techical director/coach with the Crew before coming to TFC

?

Note, I am not saying sack the lot of them. Simply saying they all need time, including Gilberto.

[Canary10]

Speaking of asking questions, why can't the coaches get more out of this guy given his proven history?

Could it be related to this:

Nelsen - no prior coaching experience before TFC
Brennan - no prior coaching experience before TFC
Bent - no prior coaching experience before TFC
O'Leary - NCAA coaching experience
Oughton - retired player in 2010. 3 years experience as assistant techical director/coach with the Crew before coming to TFC

?

Note, I am not saying sack the lot of them. Simply saying they all need time, including Gilberto.

He's not really a proven goal scorer. He's had one decent season.

[ensco]

TFC have about 7 games until the summer window opens.

He needs 5 goals from those games.

[LFC8]

If a dp striker has no goals after 10 games....then yeah....he's a flop.

[Canary10]

I question why they decided two DP strikers was the way to go in the first place. Games are won and lost in the midfield - that's where I would tend to put them. Team feels unbalanced to me in the way they spent the money.

Also Gilberto really is an unknown. One good year. We've paid a lot for a guy that isn't proven. Laba on the other hand proved himself in MLS right away. I'd like to think he comes back but I highly doubt it.

[molenshtain]

If a dp striker has no goals after 10 games....then yeah....he's a flop.

Is Dempsey a flop?

[notthesun]

I question why they decided two DP strikers was the way to go in the first place. Games are won and lost in the midfield - that's where I would tend to put them. Team feels unbalanced to me in the way they spent the money.

I don't think I agree with this. I wouldn't say games are won or lost anywhere - all part of the whole - but if I had to pick one it would be forward. Think of how awful we were last year, and then consider we'd still manage to create one or two legitimate scoring chances per game. I think if you inserted Defoe into last year's team, we get more points than we do if you'd insert Bradley instead. Just imagine where Montreal would have been last year without Di Vaio.

[Pookie]

^ so if 2 strikers was the goal all along, makes you wonder about the necessity to move Urutti last year. There was room for one more striker with Laba and Urutti in the mix.

Bradley wasn't on the map at that point given all the talk about it coming together in the span of a week. Lots of bad PR for what seems to be very little gain.

[Canary10]

I don't think I agree with this. I wouldn't say games are won or lost anywhere - all part of the whole - but if I had to pick one it would be forward. Think of how awful we were last year, and then consider we'd still manage to create one or two legitimate scoring chances per game. I think if you inserted Defoe into last year's team, we get more points than we do if you'd insert Bradley instead. Just imagine where Montreal would have been last year without Di Vaio.

I would have signed Defoe and probably another striker from within the league. I always thought we were taking a bit of a flyer on Gilberto. Not giving up on him as I agree with others who have said he does some good things out there.

As for games being won in the mid, well that's a philosophical question. That's how I learned the game through years of playing. Feel free to disagree but i believe it's true.

[Areathrasher]

If a dp striker has no goals after 10 games....then yeah....he's a flop.

Dempsey?

And it's been 7 league games.

[prizby]

Tim Cahill; first 12 games, 1 goal
Clint Dempsey; first 10 games back, 1 goal
Marco di Vaio; first 10 games, 1 goal

lets cut them all


Not one manager, aside from Mo early on, has ever focused on drafting AND developing those picks.


Hagglund looking like a good draft pick; Lovitz looking like a good pick out of the 2nd round; Nelsen using the same developmental model on Bekker that was used on him

[molenshtain]

This bubble is mythical. Strikers either have a killer instinct or they dont. Gilberto doesnt seem to.
He hesitates and he makes bad decisions in front of goal, service is not the issue. In the Colorado game, the players were bending over backwards to give him his opportunity, he messed every chance and it cost us the game.

Pookie, this is a DP, not some kid from the academy. We should not have to teach him how to maintain confidence and score goals.

He might me a good player, and he might be a worthy MLS player, but he is not DP material and that is the bottom line.

Bullshit. Defoe once went 22 consecutive appearances without scoring. Diego Forlan went 23 games without a goal in England, left, and suddenly found his touch again in Spain. Yet the rest of their careers indicate that they are at least decent at being strikers, with these barren spells obviously being largely anomalies. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples though those are the only two I could come up with off the top of my head.

[Pookie]

Hagglund looking like a good draft pick; Lovitz looking like a good pick out of the 2nd round; Nelsen using the same developmental model on Bekker that was used on him

This is what is encouraging. Especially with the number of picks in 2015.

[Areathrasher]

Bullshit. Defoe once went 22 consecutive appearances without scoring. Diego Forlan went 23 games without a goal in England, left, and suddenly found his touch again in Spain. Yet the rest of their careers indicate that they are at least decent at being strikers, with these barren spells obviously being largely anomalies. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples though those are the only two I could come up with off the top of my head.

Bingo.

Unless it's a striker in the elite of the elite. All strikers will have barren spells.

[Shakes McQueen]

I'd be more concerned if Gilberto had a goal or two, but otherwise looked out of place on an MLS pitch, because it would indicate he's not adjusting well to the league.

On the contrary, Gilberto is doing pretty much everything well, except getting a few goals. Maybe he will be a bust, but we are hardly at the point where that can be fairly judged. He has talent, and has shown no difficulties playing the MLS-style game - I still think he will be fine.

[Jpexxx]

I'm a big fan of Gilberto personally.

I think he has done everything right so far, with the exception of putting a few of his chances away.

He does more than enough as a team player to justify his spot in the starting 11. Once he pops a few goals his confidence will be better.

[shwade]

Is the team better with him on the pitch? Yes.
He hasn't scored the goals yet but it's only been 7 games and he's had a lot of adjusting to do.

[jabbronies]

Just looking t his wikipedia page - he never really tore it up on any of the other teams he's been on.

Average numbers on every team he's been on with really only 1 decent season under his belt, but IMO it was not a DP type season though.
Makes me wonder why TFC would DP money on him.

Again - I think this was a gamble pick. We will see if it pays off. I only see him as a service man for Defoe. Or a decoy that allows Defoe to get open.

[defensor]

really hoping Gilberto can net one soon for the haters. It's just a mental thing like the longer you go with out scoring the more it's in your head I thing. But yeah obviously he's not the most incredibly clinical like Defoe, but the role he's playing is actually pretty good when he's playing with Defoe.

not a huge fan of the two D.P strikers though personally, and they might have paid too much for Gilberto but but whatever.

[BuSaPuNk]

Just looking t his wikipedia page - he never really tore it up on any of the other teams he's been on.

Average numbers on every team he's been on with really only 1 decent season under his belt, but IMO it was not a DP type season though.
Makes me wonder why TFC would DP money on him.

Again - I think this was a gamble pick. We will see if it pays off. I only see him as a service man for Defoe. Or a decoy that allows Defoe to get open.

And if he is a decoy is that so bad ?

People will agrue that you shouldn't use a DP slot on a decoy but really if it was Weideman ect up top they would still concentrate on Defoe. But Gilberto has shown quality and is dangerous. He's just snake bitten I think even the opposition can see that.

[tfcleeds]

Eh, if we had held on to Urruti, we'd have said the same thing after 10 games. At least now he seems to finally be starting to come into his own a little bit. While I agree Gilberto's lack of goals is becoming a bit concerning, I wouldn't give up on him just yet.

[prizby]

This is what is encouraging. Especially with the number of picks in 2015.

hit a home run with 1 out of 4; grab a future starter with another; grab a guy who can be part of the rotation and 1 is a bust out of the 4 picks, will be a good draft

[prizby]

Eh, if we had held on to Urruti, we'd have said the same thing after 10 games. At least now he seems to finally be starting to come into his own a little bit. While I agree Gilberto's lack of goals is becoming a bit concerning, I wouldn't give up on him just yet.

urruti wouldn't have put in the defensive work that Gilberto has nor does Urruti have the vision Gilberto has

[Areathrasher]

Just looking t his wikipedia page - he never really tore it up on any of the other teams he's been on.

Average numbers on every team he's been on with really only 1 decent season under his belt, but IMO it was not a DP type season though.
Makes me wonder why TFC would DP money on him.

Again - I think this was a gamble pick. We will see if it pays off. I only see him as a service man for Defoe. Or a decoy that allows Defoe to get open.

A goal every 2.79 games is above average.

He has shown he has what it takes to play MLS and basically his lack of goals is a statistical anomaly.

The tide will turn, kinda like how it has for Rick Nash in the playoffs. No goals in the first 2 rounds and now he has 2 in 2 games.

[Klinsmann]

Hopefully he will get a few goals in the Wilmington friendly??

https://s.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/FakePaRCJx1PWqgrgjRqCw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQyMTtweG9mZj01MDtweW 9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz03NDk-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/Sports/AP_Soccer/201403221905687092816-p5.jpg

[LFC8]

Tim Cahill; first 12 games, 1 goal
Clint Dempsey; first 10 games back, 1 goal
Marco di Vaio; first 10 games, 1 goal

lets cut them all

Cahill and Dempsey? You realize they're midfielder's right?

[LFC8]

Is Dempsey a flop?

Dempsey ain't a striker.

[defensor]

Dempsey ain't a striker.
pretty sure seattle was only playing with 1 striker at the end of last season when Dempsey came, and dempsey was playing attacking mid, i know its completely different so I see no point in comparing,(I'm not taking sides) but it's not like Dempsey was playing great and wasn't scoring goals, he really was playing no where near his current form. (I think that was their point)

[Canary10]

Spurs supporters were starting to question whether Soldado was any good at around 10 games in. Anyone can feel free to let us all know how that turned out by the end of the season.

[Yohan]

Cahill and Dempsey? You realize they're midfielder's right?

They have been flipping between am and second striker

[molenshtain]

Dempsey ain't a striker.

Considering their type of play, their end game is basically the same and they operate in the same areas. Gilberto starts higher but drops deeper to help with the build-up play and defense, While Dempsey starts deeper but ends up on a heck of a lot of crosses. Same game just different starting positions. They should be getting a similar amount of goals.

Same goes for Cahill^^

[PopePouri]

Dempsey ain't a striker.

Then Gilberto isn't either.

Edit: Actually looked at last year's games where Dempsey started. Yep, formation says he played striker.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2013-10-27-SEA-v-LA/formation

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2013-10-19-DAL-v-SEA/formation

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2013-10-13-POR-v-SEA/formation

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2013-08-31-CLB-v-SEA/formation

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2013-08-25-SEA-v-POR/formation

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2013-08-17-HOU-v-SEA/formation

[barticusz]

Another thread promoting constant change for this team.

At this rate, I think I'm better off creating a new thread that supports this team and it's steady progress.

[DinamoTFC]

Such a stupid thread. One who doesn't see what Gilberto provides this team wont ever see it. His passing, his hustling, his off the ball movement, his pressure on defenders are immense. Sure he hasnt scored a goal yet and doesnt have that lucky break but everything Defoe doesnt do off the ball, he does. He's the perfect compliment.

[Canary10]

Another thread promoting constant change for this team.

At this rate, I think I'm better off creating a new thread that supports this team and it's steady progress.

The negativity right now is opposite to how we are actually doing.

[ensco]

I just don't think he's looked ready to bust loose. He looks seriously out of sync, to me.

Go to the free kick at 2:20 on the Game at 6, and tell me what you really think of that play.

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2014/05/17/bacardi-game-six-minutes-tor-v-ny-may-17-2014

[prizby]

Cahill and Dempsey? You realize they're midfielder's right?

you realize they are being paid to produce like they did in the EPL...that would be, yes, to score goals

[prizby]

Spurs supporters were starting to question whether Soldado was any good at around 10 games in. Anyone can feel free to let us all know how that turned out by the end of the season.

kind of like bony was 10 games and 1 goal from play at the start of the year...feel free to let us all know how that turned out by the end of the season

[backbeat]

I just don't think he's looked ready to bust loose. He looks seriously out of sync, to me.

Go to the free kick at 2:20 on the Game at 6, and tell me what you really think of that play.

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2014/05/17/bacardi-game-six-minutes-tor-v-ny-may-17-2014


yes he missed that - no doubt about it

but

Gilberto was all over the pitch that game, much like all the other games this year imo, breaking up NYRB plays, setting up chances and coming back defensively - as soon as he was subbed off i found the whole tempo of TFC changed - NYRB's started to gain more possession in our end and one of the major changes was that we had Moore and Defoe hanging out up top - totally different then when Gilberto was on the pitch - he was working his ass off all over the pitch, hustles back to the back 4 to help out - he knows where to be - yes he is off finishing but i love his play, knowledge, hustle and his desire.... i am all for giving him time..... the thing is he is setting up scoring chances and he is missing scoring chances - the point being is that he is there - like they say when a sniper in hockey is not scoring - if he's getting chances and missing he's ok as they'll start to go in, the worry is if he's not getting himself in position for the chances - Gilberto is... i like him and think we really need to have some patience...to me it's so toronto to want to dump players or coaches so quickly - in my mind that's why we're where we are after all these years....but then again i was a Vitti supporter....

[Canary10]

kind of like bony was 10 games and 1 goal from play at the start of the year...feel free to let us all know how that turned out by the end of the season

Totally. It can go either way. I was really just making the point that you can find an example that says whatever you want.

[Kaz]

This is just the thing...

there are two things that could happen.

Gilberto could be like the players that adapt but take a bit.. or like the players that don't.

There are only two options... We dump him or we keep letting him play, and contributing as he has been (and he has) and putting pressure that does on occasion result in goals (ie Defoe's goal against DC United. That Goal came from a defender passing quickly because Gilberto was still pushing, after it rebounded off the keep from Gilberto's shot. It landed at Defoe's foot and he put it home)

Gilberto has the skill and the talent, if he gets over his yips and gels a bit with the team and settles down he'll be fine, or he won't and he'll be sent packing.

But he produces enough to let him try, we know 10-15 games isn't uncommon for some players. Particularly if they aren't used to the kind of pressure that is put on them. They are a key member of the squad suddenly not a cog in the team. And there isn't really any one there to pick up the slack if we did dump him.. so there is no point in not letting him work his issue out... and if he does he could be a very important part of the squad for a few years.

When I get pissed I want him gone... when I calm and think.. I know it will come..

[LFC8]

The amount of people comparing Dempsey and Cahill to Gilberto is quite laughable. In that case, let's get rid of Bradley.....he ain't scoring enough.

[habstfc]

Giving up on the guy after 7 games is completely ridiculous. It's not like the guy is missing 2 or 3 sitters a game. I'm not concerned about his lack of goals so far. I'm actually encouraged by his overall play, especially his back tracking to help defensively. He does the small thing and plays his role perfectly alongside Defoe. Rey played a ball in which he dummied perfectly for Defoe to get a very good shot on net early in the game on Saturday. He's a very unselfish player a little too unselfish at times. If the guy was out there looking lost, that would be concerning but he's contributing in other ways besides on the score sheet. he's also not getting the service Defoe's been getting which is understandable given Defoe's the number one option. His goals will come.

[Pookie]

The negativity right now is opposite to how we are actually doing.

Ensco said it earlier. Standings look fine. How they are playing has people (that are expecting playoffs) worried. Just like the Leafs.

[Phil]

I get why this thread is here but I am impressed with his play so far. He makes some great runs, defensivly is not a liability and generally is fun to watch.

Yes some goals would be great but its a long season and there will be plently of opportunities.

[Areathrasher]

To those that consider him a flop...

He has played 7 MLS games. If he pots 2-3 over the next 3 games before the WC break or goes on a run post WC break and ends up with 2/3 in 10 or 5 in 15, is he still considered a flop?

This, to me, is why this conversation is absurd. If he gets to 20-25-30 games with zero, 1 or 2 goals, then lets have the conversation.

It's still too damm early.

[prizby]

The amount of people comparing Dempsey and Cahill to Gilberto is quite laughable. In that case, let's get rid of Bradley.....he ain't scoring enough.

it is quite laughable that you still don't get that Cahill and Dempsey were brought in to score goals...some of the best goal scorers in the world, don't play striker

[Fort York Redcoat]

So hopefully this thread will continue to progress as Gilberto does. People seeing his quality as he produces. As yet, there are definite questions of value for dollar. TBC...

[Canary10]

Ensco said it earlier. Standings look fine. How they are playing has people (that are expecting playoffs) worried. Just like the Leafs.

Maybe. Part of that though are the people who believe we should walk over every team and don't accept Nelsen's tactics as legitimate. I'll admit to partially falling into that group - I had to endure a season of Chris Hughton whose negative tactics got Norwich relegated. But I can't ignore the table either. I think to some extent there is confusion about whether we are playing badly or whether we are just executing his approach. You can see it clearly in the possession discussion for example. His approach does tend to win more often than not in MLS, although it's not necessarily fun to watch and it concedes possession by design. For Norwich it likely would have worked if we'd have had a Defoe who will make good on the one chance he gets. (See Ricky van Wolsfwinkel).

Also I think there is a certain amount of PTSD. We've had a decent start. But this is TFC. When will the other shoe drop? We've been conditioned into that for years now.

[TorontoGooner]

Another thread promoting constant change for this team.

At this rate, I think I'm better off creating a new thread that supports this team and it's steady progress.

Absolutely. The negativity on this board is unbearable. I'm starting to think some of our fans don't deserve any success

[MartinUtd]

To those that consider him a flop...

He has played 7 MLS games. If he pots 2-3 over the next 3 games before the WC break or goes on a run post WC break and ends up with 2/3 in 10 or 5 in 15, is he still considered a flop?

This, to me, is why this conversation is absurd. If he gets to 20-25-30 games with zero, 1 or 2 goals, then lets have the conversation.

It's still too damm early.

This thread is asking the question if he's a flop. Not an outright statement that he's failed. You've got admit that we have cause for concern. The man is obviously skilled but if he struggles to bag empty netters then something is wrong. I agree that it's not time to pull him yet, but it's not just me that is having reservations. Nelsen is subbing him off earlier and earlier lately.

And to the cheerleaders who can't handle a conversation about the negative sides of this football team: Deal with it. Life isn't all sunshine.

[trane]

I joked about it another thread, but lets do it, take away the number 9 shirt, and give him a 10.

I think that at the minimum he will get 10 goals and 10 assists this year.

[Canary10]

I joked about it another thread, but lets do it, take away the number 9 shirt, and give him a 10.

I think that at the minimum he will get 10 goals and 10 assists this year.

Drop him back and play a true 4-4-1-1

[trane]

He does not struggle to finish empty net chances, he put himself in great positions, and he just misses.

Clearly he needs to start scoring, but his quality is clear.

[trane]

Drop him back and play a true 4-4-1-1

Yep. Would work. Or put him up top and Defoe and the new English dude, behind him in 4-3-2-1 Christmas tree, he would create allot of opportunities for the SS.

[trane]

it is quite laughable that you still don't get that Cahill and Dempsey were brought in to score goals...some of the best goal scorers in the world, don't play striker

What he does not get, or chooses to ignore is that both Cahill and Dempsey are AM/SS (as Yohan pointed out) and they are both expected to score goals.

[Canary10]

Yep. Would work. Or put him up top and Defoe and the new English dude, behind him in 4-3-2-1 Christmas tree, he would create allot of opportunities for the SS.

He hasn't taken too many long range chances either, which seem to be where he scored more goals if the highlight reels are representative.

[Areathrasher]

This thread is asking the question if he's a flop. Not an outright statement that he's failed. You've got admit that we have cause for concern. The man is obviously skilled but if he struggles to bag empty netters then something is wrong. I agree that it's not time to pull him yet, but it's not just me that is having reservations. Nelsen is subbing him off earlier and earlier lately.

And to the cheerleaders who can't handle a conversation about the negative sides of this football team: Deal with it. Life isn't all sunshine.

Be it here or on twitter or in the comments on Facebook, there are quite a few people that have already written him off.

And I don't know if anyone else noticed on Saturday but he seemed to be struggling with a back/hip issue. He came to the sideline for treatment twice and was favoring his side during the game, I thought that played into Nelsen subbing him off.

[Phil]

Hip Flex injures are nasty and usually take a long time to recover from and that is what he had pre season.

He seemed to be fine post game when I saw him.

[MartinUtd]

Oh, didn't realized he'd picked up a hip injury. That certainly changes my perception of him being subbed off in the 65th and 55th minute two games in a row.

I'm really hoping he'll be able to bag one while some of the teams are weakened due to the world cup break. That might not happen with a hip flexor strain (or whatever the specifics are).

[Phil]

Oh, didn't realized he'd picked up a hip injury. That certainly changes my perception of him being subbed off in the 65th and 55th minute two games in a row.

I'm really hoping he'll be able to bag one while some of the teams are weakened due to the world cup break. That might not happen with a hip flexor strain (or whatever the specifics are).

Its why he was eased in pre season. They can be quite an ordeal to recover from so I would suspect its bothering him at certain points in the game.

[Canary10]

Its why he was eased in pre season. They can be quite an ordeal to recover from so I would suspect its bothering him at certain points in the game.

I've had one the past six months and it's a real nuisance. Of course I've never fully stopped, which is what the physiotherapist said is the only way it'll heal. Really affects my shot. Can't get any power.

[MartinUtd]

I've had one the past six months and it's a real nuisance. Of course I've never fully stopped, which is what the physiotherapist said is the only way it'll heal. Really affects my shot. Can't get any power.

I had the same thing 3 years ago. It mostly effected my push off when I was attempting to start running/sprinting.

[Canary10]

I had the same thing 3 years ago. It mostly effected my push off when I was attempting to start running/sprinting.

Oh yeah, totally does that too. I have the pick up of an elephant now.

[CommradePolski]

#beardsforgilberto

[Fishnicker]

Ensco said it earlier. Standings look fine. How they are playing has people (that are expecting playoffs) worried. Just like the Leafs.

Not at all like the Leafs. The standings looked good but their terrible corsi/fenwick suggested a big time negative regression.

Unlike the leafs, TFC's TSR is actually pretty good, and combined with our position in the table bodes well for the rest of the season.

L'Impact from last season are a better comparision - good league standings but a terrible TSR. Regression was a bitch for them!

One could try and make the argument that possession is more predictive than TSR (by all means give it a go), and therefore TFC should expect a drop due to poor poss %. Although good luck with that.

CSN has been updating league TSR since week 6 I think, for those that are interested.

[LFC8]

it is quite laughable that you still don't get that Cahill and Dempsey were brought in to score goals...some of the best goal scorers in the world, don't play striker

They were not brought in to score goals, they were brought in to create goals. Whether they score or not is irrelevant. Do New York and Seattle score more goals with Cahill and Dempsey on the field? Yes. Have they ever finished a season as the top scorers on their team? I'll take a wild guess and say no.

[jabbronies]

it is quite laughable that you still don't get that Cahill and Dempsey were brought in to score goals...some of the best goal scorers in the world, don't play striker

Dero is a good example of this.

[SamK]

They were not brought in to score goals, they were brought in to create goals. Whether they score or not is irrelevant. Do New York and Seattle score more goals with Cahill and Dempsey on the field? Yes. Have they ever finished a season as the top scorers on their team? I'll take a wild guess and say no.
Dempsey finished with the third most goals for tottenham his season with them. He finished behind Defoe and Bale, who is not a striker either.

[jabbronies]

He does not struggle to finish empty net chances, he put himself in great positions, and he just misses.

Clearly he needs to start scoring, but his quality is clear.

This reminds me of how Chad Barrett played while in Toronto.

Some guys got the scoring touch and others don't. I'm not saying he doesn't have the touch but Gilberto isn't finishing off clear cut chances. They are not striker goals he is missing, they are anybody goals! little more than tap in's in a few chances.

This is the same issue had with other internationals that we have had. They were good players who cost a shit ton of money - at what point do you just spend less cash on an MLS version of that player.

Gilberto is in a very forward position and he only has 1 assist to his name.
So if he's not scoring and he's not assisting...again I ask the question - at what point do you bring in an MLS level player to do the same job. Designated player roster slot being spent on a striker who doesn't score.

I give him to the end of the season. Then I start calling for his head.

[brad]

They were not brought in to score goals, they were brought in to create goals. Whether they score or not is irrelevant. Do New York and Seattle score more goals with Cahill and Dempsey on the field? Yes. Have they ever finished a season as the top scorers on their team? I'll take a wild guess and say no.

Dempsy has not played a full season for Seattle yet, and was pretty bad last season. This year he leads the team in goals so far with 8. Dempsy was Fulhams to scorer in 2011/12 and tied for 4th place in the EPL overall that year. To suggest he is not here to score goals is flat out wrong.

[brad]

Dempsy also lead the league for shots and is second for shots on goal.

[LFC8]

Dero is a good example of this.

DeRo is one of the best goalscorers in the world? Could've fooled me

[LFC8]

Dempsy has not played a full season for Seattle yet, and was pretty bad last season. This year he leads the team in goals so far with 8. Dempsy was Fulhams to scorer in 2011/12 and tied for 4th place in the EPL overall that year. To suggest he is not here to score goals is flat out wrong.

Seattle is 4-1 when Dempsey doesn't score. But in those games he has 3 assists. The 1 loss coming when he didn't have an assist. It doesn't matter if Dempsey scores as long as he creates chances. Yet our striker (Gilberto) has no goals and 1 assist in 9 games with a 4-4-1 record. If we didn't have Defoe i'm pretty sure alot of people wouldn't be 'patient' with Gilberto.

[Canary10]

Seattle is 4-1 when Dempsey doesn't score. But in those games he has 3 assists. The 1 loss coming when he didn't have an assist. It doesn't matter if Dempsey scores as long as he creates chances. Yet our striker (Gilberto) has no goals and 1 assist in 9 games with a 4-4-1 record. If we didn't have Defoe i'm pretty sure alot of people wouldn't be 'patient' with Gilberto.

I think this is true, but luckily we are in a position to have a bit of patience.

[Areathrasher]

Doesn't Gilberto have 2 assists?


Jackson goal v Revs & Defoe goal v Caps?

You could say Defoes goal against DC counts as an assist as it was off his rebound.

[jabbronies]

DeRo is one of the best goalscorers in the world? Could've fooled me

Well, one of the best in North America lol

But guys who have made a mark as an Attacking Mid or other parts of the midfield: Cristiano Ronaldo, Diego Maradona, George Best, Socrates, Frank Lampard, Johan Cruyff

[lobo]

The amount of people comparing Dempsey and Cahill to Gilberto is quite laughable. In that case, let's get rid of Bradley.....he ain't scoring enough.

yes, get rid of bradley too, if your one and only criteria is goal scoring, which seems to be the case for all of the gilberto haters here ... the rest of the thread has some more reasonable and lucid commentary about gilberto's all-round strengths, and is far more credible than those who see nothing but a zero under goals scored.

for those calling gilberto a flop ... beyond looking only at his lack of goals, how many of you are actually watching what he does off the ball? how many of you are considering how little possession our team has? or how pathetic our (counter) attack truly is? do you think defoe is scoring all by himself, with no help from others, and that gilberto should do the same? for what it's worth, i don't think defoe gets his 5 goals at this point if moore or weideman or dero are his partner out there.

and are none of you impressed when gilberto makes a recovery run into the defensive third and pops up to support a defender who is pressuring the ball? or pressures the ball himself with defenders supporting him? happens frequently, and it is impressive, and something you don't often see from strikers in any formation. but he has not yet scored a goal himself, so he's obviously a worthless DP. just like mista, of course. gawd.

[Phil]

I shudder to think of consistant service being played into the box from the wings for this guy and Defoe. Right now we are lucky that Defoe has been able to edge out what he has IMO.

[jabbronies]

yes, get rid of bradley too, if your one and only criteria is goal scoring, which seems to be the case for all of the gilberto haters here ... the rest of the thread has some more reasonable and lucid commentary about gilberto's all-round strengths, and is far more credible than those who see nothing but a zero under goals scored.

for those calling gilberto a flop ... beyond looking only at his lack of goals, how many of you are actually watching what he does off the ball? how many of you are considering how little possession our team has? or how pathetic our (counter) attack truly is? do you think defoe is scoring all by himself, with no help from others, and that gilberto should do the same? for what it's worth, i don't think defoe gets his 5 goals at this point if moore or weideman or dero are his partner out there.

and are none of you impressed when gilberto makes a recovery run into the defensive third and pops up to support a defender who is pressuring the ball? or pressures the ball himself with defenders supporting him? happens frequently, and it is impressive, and something you don't often see from strikers in any formation. but he has not yet scored a goal himself, so he's obviously a worthless DP. just like mista, of course. gawd.

I've seen him run so far back that he is behind the defensive line defending balls and then slowly jogs back up on the ensuing counter attack.
A striker who ends up being last man back leaving the already thin attacking options even thinner.

He's not a perfect player. For everything he does well, he also does some other things just as poorly.
Maybe high level MLS quality player, but as we speak he is not DP money worthy.

I wouldn't compare him to Mista - that is just being a sensationalist IMO. Mista brought absolutely nothing to the park. Gilberto does have his qualities, but they are not DP money qualities at this point.

Keep in mind Gilberto is only 24 years old and hasn't been taught the higher quality aspects of football like Dempsy/Defoe/Martins/Blanco/Bradley/Angel or many of the other high profiled DP's of the past. These guys learned the game on the biggest stages the world has to offer before coming to MLS and being considered DP quality.

Do you really believe he will learn those aspects in the MLS playing on TFC that will allow him to rise above the rest of the leagues talent and into the DP level status?

[Areathrasher]

I've seen him run so far back that he is behind the defensive line defending balls and then slowly jogs back up on the ensuing counter attack.
A striker who ends up being last man back leaving the already thin attacking options even thinner.

He's not a perfect player. For everything he does well, he also does some other things just as poorly.
Maybe high level MLS quality player, but as we speak he is not DP money worthy.

I wouldn't compare him to Mista - that is just being a sensationalist IMO. Mista brought absolutely nothing to the park. Gilberto does have his qualities, but they are not DP money qualities at this point.

Keep in mind Gilberto is only 24 years old and hasn't been taught the higher quality aspects of football like Dempsy/Defoe/Martins/Blanco/Bradley/Angel or many of the other high profiled DP's of the past. These guys learned the game on the biggest stages the world has to offer before coming to MLS and being considered DP quality.

Do you really believe he will learn those aspects in the MLS playing on TFC that will allow him to rise above the rest of the leagues talent and into the DP level status?

I've read this a few times and I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Also, what of other MLS DPs like Valeri, Sabborio, Laba, Morales and Diaz? They come from similar backgrounds to Gilberto and do just fine as DPs in MLS.

[lobo]

^^ no pleasing some people ... forward player helps defensively, which results in a counter-attack, and the forward is then criticized for not being part of the attack, ugh.

[jloome]

I've read this a few times and I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Also, what of other MLS DPs like Valeri, Sabborio, Laba, Morales and Diaz? They come from similar backgrounds to Gilberto and do just fine as DPs in MLS.

Or Urruti, who looked lost at Portland (and that's probably why Nelsen moved him, which is disconcerting) last year but has four goals this year and looks dangerous pretty much every time he touches the ball.

[jabbronies]

I've read this a few times and I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Also, what of other MLS DPs like Valeri, Sabborio, Laba, Morales and Diaz? They come from similar backgrounds to Gilberto and do just fine as DPs in MLS.


Not sure what the point is? It means they are trained at top clubs, with top coaches, playing around top players.
If you don't think that makes a difference, than I'm curious to know why you feel Toronto FC's training environment is at the same level of training and coaching as these clubs?

As for your list -
For starters Saborio wasn't named as a DP until after a successful first MLS season that saw him score 14 goals that year
Valeri was at Porto - so that falls in my arguments favour of being trained at a top club
Laba, Moales and Diaz are all cheaper than Gilberto and have made quicker adjustments to the league and made impacts on the league faster than he has.

Also - I don't really follow any of these guys through their time in MLS, but just doing a quick search and seeing how they did in their first year and they all had pretty successful starts in the MLS. By the end of the season these guys were leaders in many categories earning weekly accolades along the way.

So yes, some of them did have similar backgrounds to Gilberto - the only difference being they adjusted quicker to the MLS and been more successful much quicker than he has been.

So now that you have mentioned these guys and thier similar career paths - why hasn't he blossomed yet like they had?

[jabbronies]

Or Urruti, who looked lost at Portland (and that's probably why Nelsen moved him, which is disconcerting) last year but has four goals this year and looks dangerous pretty much every time he touches the ball.

I guess what you are saying is Nelsen is the reason he isn't scoring.
But on the flip side Nelsen isn't the reason he is doing everything else well?

Trying to figure out what the idea of this post is.

[MightyDM]

Absolutely. The negativity on this board is unbearable. I'm starting to think some of our fans don't deserve any success

That's what I think too.

[MightyDM]

Be it here or on twitter or in the comments on Facebook, there are quite a few people that have already written him off.

And I don't know if anyone else noticed on Saturday but he seemed to be struggling with a back/hip issue. He came to the sideline for treatment twice and was favoring his side during the game, I thought that played into Nelsen subbing him off.

Yes, there was ice put on his back immediately after he was subbed

[barticusz]

Gilberto scored a slick tip-in last night in Fifa 14. Expect more this Friday.

[Areathrasher]

Not sure what the point is? It means they are trained at top clubs, with top coaches, playing around top players.
If you don't think that makes a difference, than I'm curious to know why you feel Toronto FC's training environment is at the same level of training and coaching as these clubs?

As for your list -
For starters Saborio wasn't named as a DP until after a successful first MLS season that saw him score 14 goals that year
Valeri was at Porto - so that falls in my arguments favour of being trained at a top club
Laba, Moales and Diaz are all cheaper than Gilberto and have made quicker adjustments to the league and made impacts on the league faster than he has.

Also - I don't really follow any of these guys through their time in MLS, but just doing a quick search and seeing how they did in their first year and they all had pretty successful starts in the MLS. By the end of the season these guys were leaders in many categories earning weekly accolades along the way.

So yes, some of them did have similar backgrounds to Gilberto - the only difference being they adjusted quicker to the MLS and been more successful much quicker than he has been.

So now that you have mentioned these guys and thier similar career paths - why hasn't he blossomed yet like they had?

So top clubs, top coaches and top players don't exist in South America? That was the crux of my original point, you're writing off players and casting aspersions that they are lesser compared to ones that come or have played in Europe. I mean Diego Valeri spent a year at Porto and played 12 games. What was more important in his development, 10 years at Lanus where he was club captain or a year in Portugal.

Mauro Diaz cut his teeth at River Plate. River Plate not a top club??? Get out of here.

Internacional, where Gilberto came from, that has developed and sent players to AC Milan, Chelsea and Spurs in recent years, not a top club??? C'mon.


So now that you have mentioned these guys and thier similar career paths - why hasn't he blossomed yet like they had?

Maybe because he has only played 7 games...Laba was called by some as a waste of money and a DP spot after his first few performances last season, wonder what they would say now.

[prizby]

They were not brought in to score goals, they were brought in to create goals. Whether they score or not is irrelevant. Do New York and Seattle score more goals with Cahill and Dempsey on the field? Yes. Have they ever finished a season as the top scorers on their team? I'll take a wild guess and say no.

Tim Cahill was Millwall's leading scorer in 2003/04 and a few others; Clint Dempsey was Fulham's leading scorer in 4 season. Were they brought in to do other things, sure, but they wouldn't make the money they are making if they weren't expected to score goals as well.

[greatwhitenorf]

I'm usually a charitable person. As a Spurs fan, I watched the Soldado saga unfold. I'm prepared to give him another season. He had 11 goals in 36 games in all comps. But only two came in open PL play, four from pens (well-taken, mind). Still, played a sound game overall and set up a few goals or scoring chances with some lovely, intuitive passes. You can see he has something to offer and merits another go-round. He clearly has the backing of his team mates and the fans have picked up on that and cut him some slack.

Gilberto does the back tracking and has shown some nice touches to make fine plays and create chances. He's had a little bit of bad luck, but he's not showing the instinctive ability we need to see. Just watch the Game In 6 highlight reel and see that chronic goal mouth miss in the first half. Wide open goal, ball comes to him at the back post and he's right there to get a touch on the ball, but has his foot askew and it sails wide.

Not as bad a miss as Bradley Wright-Phillips hilarious balloon shot later on, but we're seeing one or two of these every game from Gilberto. He makes good decisions and gets into good scoring positions and then fluffs it. There's been more than enough time to overcome the pre-season injury factor. A couple of more games like this and it will be a real concern for Nelsen and Bezbachenko.

[LFC8]

Tim Cahill was Millwall's leading scorer in 2003/04 and a few others; Clint Dempsey was Fulham's leading scorer in 4 season. Were they brought in to do other things, sure, but they wouldn't make the money they are making if they weren't expected to score goals as well.

I think this argument got a little off track lol. My point is that Gilberto is taking up one of our 'DP' slots and Bradley and Defoe (i would hope) are going nowhere. So if we want to bring in another player as talented as Bradley or Defoe than we have to dump Gilberto. If he wasn't a DP than i would totally be patient with him because there is definitely talent there. I just don't think you can be patient with a DP....especially when there will be some solid free agents like Cambiasso and Ferdinand that will be out of contract in 2 weeks. But with all our DP slots taken we can't even think of that as a possibility.

[ensco]

It cracks me up that the guy is unquestionably spitting the bit, but pointing that out is being called a character flaw.

All this nuanced discussion of backtracking, hustle, getting chances ... whatever.

Napoleon famously said that he only promoted lucky field commanders to be generals.

Sure, it could turn around, Gilberto may get on track, but that is not the way to bet it, I am afraid.

[LFC8]

^Well said.

[prizby]

I think this argument got a little off track lol. My point is that Gilberto is taking up one of our 'DP' slots and Bradley and Defoe (i would hope) are going nowhere. So if we want to bring in another player as talented as Bradley or Defoe than we have to dump Gilberto. If he wasn't a DP than i would totally be patient with him because there is definitely talent there. I just don't think you can be patient with a DP....especially when there will be some solid free agents like Cambiasso and Ferdinand that will be out of contract in 2 weeks. But with all our DP slots taken we can't even think of that as a possibility.

why would even consider bringing in players that A. we don't need and B. are way pass their prime

[shwade]

Gilberto scored a slick tip-in last night in Fifa 14. Expect more this Friday.

I've been scoring goals left right and centre with him in fifa 14.

[Pookie]

It cracks me up that the guy is unquestionably spitting the bit, but pointing that out is being called a character flaw.

All this nuanced discussion of backtracking, hustle, getting chances ... whatever.

Napoleon famously said that he only promoted lucky field commanders to be generals.

Sure, it could turn around, Gilberto may get on track, but that is not the way to bet it, I am afraid.

How would you have bet it if the question was about Danny Koevermans?

He started the 2012 campaign with just 1 goal in 8 games.

Or DeRo's 2011 MVP/Golden Boot season. Didn't score for NY till game 9 that year. Left NY with just 2 in 13 games.

It's a long season.

[anto7]

@KurtLarSUN: Gilberto ended training today with a fantastic flying side-volley that beat Konopka. Dude can score. I've seen it. I promise. #TFC

[ensco]

How would you have bet it if the question was about Danny Koevermans?

He started the 2012 campaign with just 1 goal in 8 games.

Or DeRo's 2011 MVP/Golden Boot season. Didn't score for NY till game 9 that year. Left NY with just 2 in 13 games.

It's a long season.

Dero had proven he could score in this league. In fact, I would bet he pots a few this year.

Koevermans, OK but you are talking about the first 10 games of that 2012 team, jeez, that team was unspeakably bad. What about all the guys who came to MLS, didn't score after 10 games, and didn't turn it around. There have to be dozens.

Gilberto is getting more time and space because of Defoe and Bradley. Think about that.

[ensco]

@KurtLarSUN: Gilberto ended training today with a fantastic flying side-volley that beat Konopka. Dude can score. I've seen it. I promise. #TFC

OK this reminds me of Barrett. There was always someone going on about the latest amazing goal from Barrett in today's practice.

In case I am not clear about this, I want to be wrong. But I am a realist.

[LFC8]

why would even consider bringing in players that A. we don't need and B. are way pass their prime

Although they are past their prime, they would still be stars in the MLS. I mean a Cambiasso and Bradley partnership in midfield would just be dynamite but there's loads of players out there.....i was just giving some examples.

[anto7]

OK this reminds me of Barrett. There was always someone going on about the latest amazing goal from Barrett in today's practice.

In case I am not clear about this, I want to be wrong. But I am a realist.


I believe the comment from Larson was totally tongue in cheek and I posted it to lighten the mood around here a little

[trane]

This reminds me of how Chad Barrett played while in Toronto.

Some guys got the scoring touch and others don't. I'm not saying he doesn't have the touch but Gilberto isn't finishing off clear cut chances. They are not striker goals he is missing, they are anybody goals! little more than tap in's in a few chances.

This is the same issue had with other internationals that we have had. They were good players who cost a shit ton of money - at what point do you just spend less cash on an MLS version of that player.

Gilberto is in a very forward position and he only has 1 assist to his name.
So if he's not scoring and he's not assisting...again I ask the question - at what point do you bring in an MLS level player to do the same job. Designated player roster slot being spent on a striker who doesn't score.

I give him to the end of the season. Then I start calling for his head.

This is it, and me and Scott, discussed it in another thread. yes both Barrett and Gilberto are not finishing, but to me and Scott, they looked completely different, doing it. One gilberto just seems a touch off, while Barrett, just seemed to be forcing it.

A season is a long time. I love what I see from Gilberto, he has everything I like to see in a 9, expect so far the most important one. SO I would not give him a full season, but I have to believe that he will start scoring soon.

[prizby]

Although they are past their prime, they would still be stars in the MLS. I mean a Cambiasso and Bradley partnership in midfield would just be dynamite but there's loads of players out there.....i was just giving some examples.

the TFC plan has always been 2 DP strikers and a DP mid; why pay cambiasso when you could have a guy like laba...we have done the old DP too many times and the reoccurring theme is injuries

[jabbronies]

So top clubs, top coaches and top players don't exist in South America? That was the crux of my original point, you're writing off players and casting aspersions that they are lesser compared to ones that come or have played in Europe. I mean Diego Valeri spent a year at Porto and played 12 games. What was more important in his development, 10 years at Lanus where he was club captain or a year in Portugal.

I never said or implied that. You are just trying to put words into my mouth to try and prove your point...\however in doing so you have just made my case even stronger!



Mauro Diaz cut his teeth at River Plate. River Plate not a top club??? Get out of here.

Again, putting words in my mouth. River plate is a huge club so he can be added to my list of guys who have been trained with top clubs




Internacional, where Gilberto came from, that has developed and sent players to AC Milan, Chelsea and Spurs in recent years, not a top club??? C'mon.


Yet another example of you trying to make a point by putting words into my mouth that were never there.
But this brings us back to my point - Since he does have a similar background to these players why hasn't he done anything yet?



Maybe because he has only played 7 games...Laba was called by some as a waste of money and a DP spot after his first few performances last season, wonder what they would say now.

I was one of the guys who praised Laba during his initial time here. You could see what he had to offer because he was doing his job and he only got better at it as time went on.

Gilberto should be scoring goals and he isn't. He was brought in to score goals. That is his job. If he doesn't start scoring at an accelerated rate and is in the top 10 goal scorers by the end of the season, then his worth should be questioned. A DP striker who can't score goals - that's what he is right now. Not sure why it's hard to see that.

When Defoe went down with an injury we had a DP striker who wasn't scoring goals - so why exactly did \TFC pick him up if not to score goals?

ALL THE PLAYERS YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR POST - WITH SIMILAR FOOTBALL EXPERIENCE AND TRAINING (thanks for that btw) HAVE ADJUSTED TO MLS FASTER THAN HE HAS - SO WHY ISN'T HE ABLE TO CONVERT ON SITTERS IN FRONT OF THE NET? WHAT IS THERE TO ADJUST TO IF YOU ARE GETTING THE CHANCES BUT CAN'T FINISH THEM OFF?????

[jabbronies]

This is it, and me and Scott, discussed it in another thread. yes both Barrett and Gilberto are not finishing, but to me and Scott, they looked completely different, doing it. One gilberto just seems a touch off, while Barrett, just seemed to be forcing it.

A season is a long time. I love what I see from Gilberto, he has everything I like to see in a 9, expect so far the most important one. SO I would not give him a full season, but I have to believe that he will start scoring soon.

You have to give him the whole season though...The Bradley absence factor is big - whomever we bring in as another winger is big.
You have to exhaust all your excuses before you get rid of him. Make sure he has a full team for a consistent amount of games before deciding if he fits.

[Brooker]

Nope

[Areathrasher]

Here is what you said

"Keep in mind Gilberto is only 24 years old and hasn't been taught the higher quality aspects of football like Dempsy/Defoe/Martins/Blanco/Bradley/Angel or many of the other high profiled DP's of the past. These guys learned the game on the biggest stages the world has to offer before coming to MLS and being considered DP quality."

If that isn't a knock on Gilberto's background, I don't know what is.

And I don't know why you are asking me why he hasn't adjusted. I never said anything about adjusting to the league. He doesnt need to adjust to the league, he just needs to hit the back of the net.

To my eyes, he is an MLS DP level player that has been unlucky with his finishing. I mean, if his strike against Columbus goes in instead of off the bar, are we even having this conversation?

Here's a highlight reel from days at Inter and Sport Recife
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Z8RJLrUgo

He finishes in the video from similar positions that we have seen him miss from. He's just been unlucky.

From what I saw in that video, it's pretty clear to me that his game has translated well to MLS. The finishing, which he is clearly capable of, has just been missing.

The goals will come.

[DinamoTFC]

Doesn't Gilberto have 2 assists?


Jackson goal v Revs & Defoe goal v Caps?

You could say Defoes goal against DC counts as an assist as it was off his rebound.

and Defoe game winning goal vs DC United, wasnt a rebound to defoe, gilberto received his own rebound and then layed it off to defoe

[DinamoTFC]

^^ no pleasing some people ... forward player helps defensively, which results in a counter-attack, and the forward is then criticized for not being part of the attack, ugh.


:hump:

[jabbronies]

Here is what you said

"Keep in mind Gilberto is only 24 years old and hasn't been taught the higher quality aspects of football like Dempsy/Defoe/Martins/Blanco/Bradley/Angel or many of the other high profiled DP's of the past. These guys learned the game on the biggest stages the world has to offer before coming to MLS and being considered DP quality."

If that isn't a knock on Gilberto's background, I don't know what is.



Blanco played most of his football in Mexico/South America....He also played on the Mexican National Team. I specifically pointed him out because I was trying to make sure I covered the south american big clubs as well - You did a great job of helping me prove my point by pointing out other big SA clubs that other successful MLS DP's have come from.

He was at Internacional for what looks like 3 seasons but he was loaned out twice by the club for substantial portions of 2 seasons.
At Inter he was a sub player who started occasionally. No international appearances - 1 decent season while on loan and he gets a DP contract?

[Areathrasher]

Blanco never played in South America. Only Mexico and Spain. The only thing those players have in common is that they all played in Europe.

And Angel had MAJOR problems setting in at Villa before he started scoring for them, maybe it could act as a lesson for some...

[jloome]

I guess what you are saying is Nelsen is the reason he isn't scoring.
But on the flip side Nelsen isn't the reason he is doing everything else well?

Trying to figure out what the idea of this post is.

It's easy to give up on someone prematurely.

[ExiledRed]

Bullshit. Defoe once went 22 consecutive appearances without scoring. Diego Forlan went 23 games without a goal in England, left, and suddenly found his touch again in Spain. Yet the rest of their careers indicate that they are at least decent at being strikers, with these barren spells obviously being largely anomalies. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples though those are the only two I could come up with off the top of my head.

These were proven strikers in their leagues before they had these barren spells. Until he actually scores, its not a barren spell, its a big fat duck.

Its not an 'anomaly' if he's never scored in an MLS game. It will be an anomaly if he gets one at this rate.

The problem with coaches and players that have no previous league experience or success to point to is that they have to prove themselves. This seems to be a missed point. Gilberto hasnt proven himself MLS worthy, it shouldnt take a whole season of choking to figure out if its going to work. If you do poorly on your probation period at ANY job, you're probably out after three months.

It wont do, we could have much stronger players for the money we are putting down here.

[ExiledRed]

I just don't think he's looked ready to bust loose. He looks seriously out of sync, to me.

Go to the free kick at 2:20 on the Game at 6, and tell me what you really think of that play.

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2014/05/17/bacardi-game-six-minutes-tor-v-ny-may-17-2014

I think he's trying to score a pretty goal instead of just putting it in the net to be honest.

[ExiledRed]

Absolutely. The negativity on this board is unbearable. I'm starting to think some of our fans don't deserve any success

Are you kidding me?

If Toronto FC fans don't deserve any success, then no fans in this league do either. Screw that notion.

For the last eight years we have poured our hard earned cash into this team. Fans have travelled from coast to coast, organizing away trips, spent time making flags and banners and tifos, bought shirts and scarves and everything with a logo on it. Canadian media expected the venture to fail, but the founders of this board and also that of U-sector united the fans, generated hype, started a movement and damn well proved that this city could not only support a professional soccer team, but make it a big story too.

We've been rewarded with eight years of terrible results, ugly play, crappy coaches and unhappy players.

The one thing about this team that has remained consistent and loyal has been the fans, and you say that we don't deserve any success because we are tired of watching unproven 'talent' flopping around in our colours, with unproven coaches who are forced to play them because they spent the money that could have gone on proven quality instead.

[TorontoGooner]

Are you kidding me?

If Toronto FC fans don't deserve any success, then no fans in this league do either. Screw that notion.

For the last eight years we have poured our hard earned cash into this team. Fans have travelled from coast to coast, organizing away trips, spent time making flags and banners and tifos, bought shirts and scarves and everything with a logo on it. Canadian media expected the venture to fail, but the founders of this board and also that of U-sector united the fans, generated hype, started a movement and damn well proved that this city could not only support a professional soccer team, but make it a big story too.

We've been rewarded with eight years of terrible results, ugly play, crappy coaches and unhappy players.

The one thing about this team that has remained consistent and loyal has been the fans, and you say that we don't deserve any success because we are tired of watching unproven 'talent' flopping around in our colours, with unproven coaches who are forced to play them because they spent the money that could have gone on proven quality instead.

Yes, I am saying that. The fans may be the best in the League, but that doesn't mean success is a right (e.g Newcastle). If we win our remaining games in hand we'll look pretty healthy in the League. These threads only fuel what other sporting cities think of us

[ensco]

Yes, I am saying that. The fans may be the best in the League, but that doesn't mean success is a right (e.g Newcastle). If we win our remaining games in hand we'll look pretty healthy in the League. These threads only fuel what other sporting cities think of us

Who on earth cares what "other sporting cities" think of us?

Our position in the table flatters us, we have not looked like a good team. What to do?

Personally, I would wait on Dero, but I would have a Plan B on Gilberto, if he can't get seriously going in the next few games.

As I have argued elsewhere, I would bet a large sum that Leiweke and Bez are right now working Plan B hard.

Patience is a nice virtue, but not when it comes to DPs (especially DP strikers), I am afraid.

Also, I don't think the Di Vaio (or Koevermans) comparisons being made make sense, given the age and pedigree of those players. Gilberto is an interesting prospect, not a proven goal scoring machine, folks.

[jabbronies]

It's easy to give up on someone prematurely.

How is giving him the full season giving up on him prematurely?

Many have already said he does things well but he needs to start scoring. Why are people willing to overlook this and pay a striker DP money to not score?

I feel like this is where people are divided in this thread. Those who sent to want to ignore the fact that he isn't scoring and those who are seeing this as the major crux of his gameplay.

A full season to get over bad luck seems legit to me. After that we are just throwing away money.

I think DP contracts should have performance stipulations on them. If he wasn't a DP I would say let him take his time to mature. As a DP he needs to produce now

[T-boy]

A lot of people are still only judging Gilberto by goals, or lack of. I've seen a lot more to his play than goals in every game. And anyways, with Defoe scoing at will, Gilberto hasn't needed to score, how many do we want to win each game by, 5-0? There have been many forwards over the years that have been top class players that don't score many goals. We still can't judge gilberto, its far too early.

[trane]

I don't think Gilberto is a flop just yet. The guy is quality.

Having said that I do wonder if his season last year was an aberration, which was a concern brought up by some.

Some are quick to throw in the towel.

You have watched football all your live. He is clearly quality. Look at most of his misses, he misses yet, but too me he always seem to have the right idea, not putting too many touches, not hitting it way to hard. When he needs to chest the ball he does, but it takes an funny bounce, when he needs just to touch it with his foot he does, but again it jut hits the post, same when he smashes it. As I said he seems just a touch off. NOW, he continues to be a touch of for another 5-10 games we have a problem a la Torres

[jabbronies]

You have watched football all your live. He is clearly quality. Look at most of his misses, he misses yet, but too me he always seem to have the right idea, not putting too many touches, not hitting it way to hard. When he needs to chest the ball he does, but it takes an funny bounce, when he needs just to touch it with his foot he does, but again it jut hits the post, same when he smashes it. As I said he seems just a touch off. NOW, he continues to be a touch of for another 5-10 games we have a problem a la Torres

This is where my worry is. For all that he is doing right, should we be paying him DP money to be doing it?

IMO there are far better players to be paying Designated Player money to do this exact same job.
I see what he does and appreciate it but he is paid to score - If we don't care about scoring, then why didn't we sign a Designated Player Midfielder instead.
I get that striker can do more than just score, but do we need to spend Designated Player money on a striker who can't score? Why not just pay an inflated regular rate player who does the same thing. There are many out there - strikers who do everything but score.

Until he starts to score he deserves all the criticism given to him and if he can't handle the pressure, then he shouldn't be playing here. This city needs Designated Players like Bradley, Defoe who don't crack under scrutiny (so far). They thrive on it and it makes them more motivated to perform. You don't lead a team to championships by shrinking under pressure.

[Canary10]

So with an over/under of 5 goals for the season, who would take the over?

Btw, for those I have bets with that Urutti would score more goals than Gilberto, he's on 3 right now.

[Areathrasher]

So with an over/under of 5 goals for the season, who would take the over?

Btw, for those I have bets with that Urutti would score more goals than Gilberto, he's on 3 right now.

I'd take the over.

[jabbronies]

So with an over/under of 5 goals for the season, who would take the over?

Btw, for those I have bets with that Urutti would score more goals than Gilberto, he's on 3 right now.

Under

[trane]

So with an over/under of 5 goals for the season, who would take the over?

Btw, for those I have bets with that Urutti would score more goals than Gilberto, he's on 3 right now.

I still say he scores 10 +

[OgtheDim]

Over, we have a long season to go and defences are getting shredded like we have not seen in a long time.

[barticusz]

OK this reminds me of Barrett. There was always someone going on about the latest amazing goal from Barrett in today's practice.

In case I am not clear about this, I want to be wrong. But I am a realist.

I can't even fathom that you're comparing Gilberto to Barrett. Gilberto has shown that he has so much more skill, technique and vision than Barrett ever did. The best thing that Barrett had going for him was that he had an engine that wouldn't quit.

As an aside, anyone know if MLS tracks how many km's a player runs per game? I'd like to see those stats to see how TFC compares to other teams. I say this because Gilberto reminds me of Lewandowski at times with how he is all over the field. Lewy struggled in his first year with Dortmund scoring only 9 in 43 appearances and then once he got going.. well we all know how that finished. I'm not saying Gilberto has the same touch as Lewy in front of the net but he's got all the other intangibles that you want.

[jloome]

So with an over/under of 5 goals for the season, who would take the over?

Btw, for those I have bets with that Urutti would score more goals than Gilberto, he's on 3 right now.

I believe with his goal on the weekend Urutti is at four now.

I'll take the over. I'll bet that over the next twenty, at least half those sitters go in and he bangs a couple more, sure.

People are reacting like a striker has never had a drought. Sure, it could be something worse, a Barrett-like case of permayips. But it's unlikely. As someone noted, if guys like Juan Pablo Angel and Fernando Torres can have major droughts despite have come from top leagues (Argentina and Spain) then a 24 year old guy coming from Brazil can, too.

An Internacional fan online told me to some fans, last year was an anomaly not because of how well he did, but because they played him up top alone a lot due to injury. Before that, he was a wide forward. Puts an interesting spin on things.

Beyond that, he does play well. He just hasn't finished. The number of chances he's seeing (mostly through his own movement, and not great through balls or anything) I think he'll get five or more.

[MartinUtd]

A lot of people are still only judging Gilberto by goals, or lack of. I've seen a lot more to his play than goals in every game. And anyways, with Defoe scoing at will, Gilberto hasn't needed to score, how many do we want to win each game by, 5-0? There have been many forwards over the years that have been top class players that don't score many goals. We still can't judge gilberto, its far too early.

We've lost half our games and have scored 9 in 8 games. Where are you getting this notion that we're scoring enough goals? I'm seeing a lot more out of the likes of Fabian Espindola ($150k), Alvaro Soborio ($360k), Will Bruin ($135k) and even Kenny Cooper ($200k) who's seen limited minutes. None of these guys are anything special and two of them were available in the off season.

[RoyalRed]

Exiled and ensco have it right - guy's getting awfully close to flop status, if not there already and Bez and Nelsen are definitely working on plan B (if not also plan C as well).

On the over/under with 5 goals, I think I'll take the under.

This guy's not Chad Barrett. He's more like Pablo Vitti. Barrett's a workhorse, whereas Vitti had lots of technical ability on display during his time in MLS - just not any goals.

[mcolvy]

Just looking t his wikipedia page - he never really tore it up on any of the other teams he's been on.

Average numbers on every team he's been on with really only 1 decent season under his belt, but IMO it was not a DP type season though.
Makes me wonder why TFC would DP money on him.

Again - I think this was a gamble pick. We will see if it pays off. I only see him as a service man for Defoe. Or a decoy that allows Defoe to get open.


Lets put this into perspective. Luis Silva is older than Gilberto. Kyle Bekker is only one year younger than Gilberto.

He is still a very young player and that is why TFC picked him up. He was suppose to have DP qualities, but that he would be able to grow with the team and stay with us for a long time.

He has a solid history folks, he has previously scored a ton of goals in Brazil's U20 & 2nd division, all when he was 21 or younger (on top of his success last season). He has managed to always get a ton of playing time wherever he has gone which is impressive, even though he only ever played on bottom of the table sides in Brazil (1st divison).

I think it was a great fit and still is.

[ryan]

Patience in sport does not exist in Toronto. Actually, I don't think it's limited to just sport.


I suppose it would be preferred by a swath of you, for a player to arrive here, do all the important things wrong, but pot a bunch of goals despite it all. Yes? Then, when reality catches up to them, things fall apart and they can't produce when it matters, you'll be saying what then?

A real life comparison? The 2013-14 Toronto Maple Leafs season. Remember when they got results despite playing rather bottom end hockey? How'd that turn out? Right.


This thread makes me literally LOL.

[mcolvy]

Okay, no Kenny Cooper. The guy has identity issues. He is 6'3, built stocky and super powerful, but refuses to play a target role. Instead he drifts to the corner with the ball or sits atop the 18 to use his quick feet to do the job for him....
Probably the worst player in MLS with his back to the net.

[Davenport]

Looking at his impact to cost ratio, he's one of TFC's worst signings ever.

[Canary10]

I believe with his goal on the weekend Urutti is at four now.

I'll take the over. I'll bet that over the next twenty, at least half those sitters go in and he bangs a couple more, sure.

People are reacting like a striker has never had a drought. Sure, it could be something worse, a Barrett-like case of permayips. But it's unlikely. As someone noted, if guys like Juan Pablo Angel and Fernando Torres can have major droughts despite have come from top leagues (Argentina and Spain) then a 24 year old guy coming from Brazil can, too.

An Internacional fan online told me to some fans, last year was an anomaly not because of how well he did, but because they played him up top alone a lot due to injury. Before that, he was a wide forward. Puts an interesting spin on things.

Beyond that, he does play well. He just hasn't finished. The number of chances he's seeing (mostly through his own movement, and not great through balls or anything) I think he'll get five or more.

MLS Fantasy Football has him at 3. I'll take 4 though if it wins me pints.

[Canary10]

We've lost half our games and have scored 9 in 8 games. Where are you getting this notion that we're scoring enough goals? I'm seeing a lot more out of the likes of Fabian Espindola ($150k), Alvaro Soborio ($360k), Will Bruin ($135k) and even Kenny Cooper ($200k) who's seen limited minutes. None of these guys are anything special and two of them were available in the off season.

That's the rub to me. There were players available who have a track record of scoring 10 plus goals in MLS that were available without using a DP spot. I'd be happy for our second striker to contribute 10. For the record I think 5 for Gilberto looks generous. But I think we need to see a whole season.

[speckles]

A lot of people are still only judging Gilberto by goals, or lack of. I've seen a lot more to his play than goals in every game. And anyways, with Defoe scoing at will, Gilberto hasn't needed to score, how many do we want to win each game by, 5-0? There have been many forwards over the years that have been top class players that don't score many goals. We still can't judge gilberto, its far too early.

I like Gilberto and without his assists and making space we would not have the number of goals scored as a team this season. However we do need him to score on occasion, if he had to date we would not have lost to crazy penalties/defensive lapses so often and potentially have had a couple more wins. Then the points/standings would not be such a pressure point for the whole team.

[OgtheDim]

Looking at his impact to cost ratio, he's one of TFC's worst signings ever.

Yes, because we know there is no impact a striker has on games but scoring......

[Areathrasher]

MLS Fantasy Football has him at 3. I'll take 4 though if it wins me pints.

Soccerway has him at 3 as well.

[Detroit_TFC]

I was just thinking back to some of the DP strikers around the league who have flopped in the past and Gilberto compares favorably IMO. Not ready to throw him in that dubious pool yet.

[Graeme]

For the record I think 5 for Gilberto looks generous. But I think we need to see a whole season. I think he looks great out there. Certainly, if you watch the Game in 6 for the DC United game, he set up Defoe for a number of shouldabeen goals with sublime play. Plus, we still have 29 games to go (including Tottenham) this season. I would be shocked if he can't score 5 in that time frame.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Well it's a lot of pressure to be the next focus for all the Brazil fans that showed up to BMO to see Cesar. I hope Gilberto gives us all something to sing about as early as Friday.

[Damien]

Could Gilberto really be moved in the summer window even if Bez wanted to?

[Pint]

Could Gilberto really be moved in the summer window even if Bez wanted to?

Theoretically yes but i see less than 0% chance that happens.

[brad]

Soccerway has him at 3 as well.

So do the official MLS stats - at least they did when I looked earlier today.

[Canary10]

So do the official MLS stats - at least they did when I looked earlier today.

I think we can safely say he's on three goals at this point, lol.

[ryan]

Theoretically yes but i see less than 0% chance that happens.

I'd say the odds are even less.

[trane]

Okay, no Kenny Cooper. The guy has identity issues. He is 6'3, built stocky and super powerful, but refuses to play a target role. Instead he drifts to the corner with the ball or sits atop the 18 to use his quick feet to do the job for him....
Probably the worst player in MLS with his back to the net.

Hold on who is 6-3???? Gilberto ???? He is like 5-10 1/2

[Kaz]

Hold on who is 6-3???? Gilberto ???? He is like 5-10 1/2


??? really? You really need to read all the comments. Kenny Cooper is 6'3" he is clearly talking about Kenny Cooper... which is why he says... Okay no Kenny Cooper. .... then says The guy has identity issues. He is 6'3"....

[trane]

^ Really???????? That is why I was asking for clarification.

Too many read insults or putdowns in every comment.

[MightyDM]

^ Really???????? That is why I was asking for clarification.

Too many read insults or putdowns in every comment.

I'm with Trane. The post wasn't entirely clear. No need to jump all over him for simply asking a question.

[trane]

^ I love spirited debate on these boards, do not like were people get needlessly offended over it.

[shwade]

He writes Kenny Cooper first then he says 'he'.
He could obviously only be talking about the guy he just mentioned.
My 0.02

[jloome]

^ I love spirited debate on these boards, do not like were people get needlessly offended over it.

agreed. wasn't that clear to me either.

Urruti is definitely on three (in seven starts). My bad. Still, not bad.

[ExiledRed]

Patience in sport does not exist in Toronto. Actually, I don't think it's limited to just sport.


I suppose it would be preferred by a swath of you, for a player to arrive here, do all the important things wrong, but pot a bunch of goals despite it all. Yes? Then, when reality catches up to them, things fall apart and they can't produce when it matters, you'll be saying what then?

A real life comparison? The 2013-14 Toronto Maple Leafs season. Remember when they got results despite playing rather bottom end hockey? How'd that turn out? Right.


This thread makes me literally LOL.



Ryan dude, he is a dp striker. 'the important stuff' is scoring and assisting goals. That's his role. Its not a bonus that is less important than good off the ball positioning, movement, passing and defensive play. Sure all these things make a good player, but fulfilling your role withing the team would top the list in my book.

Doing all the important things wrong but potting a few goals just doesnt make sense here, because potting a few goals IS the important stuff.

There are people who are claiming that he is showing brilliance, style, intelligence etc... None of these things complete a striker. You know what does.

Is our fledgling DP better suited to another role? maybe, but we shouldnt have to pay DP money to find that out.

Im not sure who or what youre comparing to the leafs, but what i get from the comparison, is that were playing bottom end football and somehow scraping some results?

[T-boy]

Does anybody think that Gilberto just 'doesnt have the ability' to score goals? Or can we see goals coming from him?

I have seen enough to think that he CAN score goals, and can definitely do so at MLS level. I wouldn't compare him to Chad Barrett, as Gilberto seems far more intellegent with his runs and overall play. Barrett scored a few goals just due to graft and effort. But Gilberto seems more more than just effort.

I think some people forget that Gilberto has not only changed leagues, but also country. I see very few players move whole countries and hit the ground sprinting and scoring goals. I remember Thierry Henry first going to Arsenal and getting terrible reviews! But once he's got used to the league and new country, the rest was history! It isn't easy moving to a new country and immediately fit in.

We also can't really compare Gilberto to Urruti - Urruti has had half a season longer than Gilberto, he's more advanced getting used to the MLS. Give Gilberto than 6 months more, he will be scoring goals too.

[Ultra & Proud]

I think this thread is flop.

[Kaz]

^ Really???????? That is why I was asking for clarification.

Too many read insults or putdowns in every comment.


Well what should I read from you? You have a history of it.

and if Gilberto is 5'10 and Cooper is 6'3"... and the guy is 6'3"... why would you call him out for getting Gilberto's height wrong.. which of course he didn't.

He mentions Cooper.. mentions Coopers height, talks about Coopers play... and you weren't clear that he was talking about Cooper?

[defensor]

I think this thread is flop.
:hurray:

[MartinUtd]

Does anybody think that Gilberto just 'doesnt have the ability' to score goals? Or can we see goals coming from him?

I have seen enough to think that he CAN score goals, and can definitely do so at MLS level. I wouldn't compare him to Chad Barrett, as Gilberto seems far more intellegent with his runs and overall play. Barrett scored a few goals just due to graft and effort. But Gilberto seems more more than just effort. I'd say he's a hell of a lot more apt than Thierry Henry going to Arsenal.

I think some people forget that Gilberto has not only changed leagues, but also country. I see very few players move whole countries and hit the ground sprinting and scoring goals. I remember Thierry Henry first going to Arsenal and getting terrible reviews! But once he's got used to the league and new country, the rest was history! It isn't easy moving to a new country and immediately fit in.

We also can't really compare Gilberto to Urruti - Urruti has had half a season longer than Gilberto, he's more advanced getting used to the MLS. Give Gilberto than 6 months more, he will be scoring goals too.

Gilberto looks the part but seems to be lacking confidence. I'd love to see him break this slump but there is a degree of urgency since we know Defoe is prone to injury. If Gilberto wasn't a DP he wouldn't be under such scrutiny to perform. You said Max Uruuti had more time to adjust in MLS but I'd hardly call 350 minutes between two teams much of a head start.

Either way, I hope he silences the critics against Kansas City. With their back line being in shambles he and Defoe should have a field day.

[trane]

Well what should I read from you? You have a history of it.

and if Gilberto is 5'10 and Cooper is 6'3"... and the guy is 6'3"... why would you call him out for getting Gilberto's height wrong.. which of course he didn't.

He mentions Cooper.. mentions Coopers height, talks about Coopers play... and you weren't clear that he was talking about Cooper?

How the hell was calling him out??? When I insult someone it is not all that hidden or passive aggressive. The mods can vouch for that.

[ensco]

How the hell was calling him out??? When I insult someone it is not all that hidden or passive aggressive. The mods can vouch for that.

Jesus, seriously, trane is the most delightfully unsubtle person in the history of these boards.

This is one of these threads where I feel like there really isn't much real disagreement. Some guys think he will bust loose, some don't see it, but if we're still here 5 games from now, 90%+ will be ready for Plan B.

[Kaz]

How the hell was calling him out??? When I insult someone it is not all that hidden or passive aggressive. The mods can vouch for that.

Calling out and insulting are two different things.

You choose to assume he must be wrong, and assume he was talking about a player even though his entire post pointed to Cooper, and a simple check of Coopers Height would have cleared it up.

[GuelphStorm2007]

I personaly think this thread is Shite Gilberto has done everything but score he has set up goals he has also been running up and dpwn the field and seems to be a decent team player from what I see. The season is still young, and TFC are still in transiton mode.

[mcolvy]

Calling out and insulting are two different things.

You choose to assume he must be wrong, and assume he was talking about a player even though his entire post pointed to Cooper, and a simple check of Coopers Height would have cleared it up.

Its all good. I forgive.
But just for the record, I was talking about Gilberto.... ;) (I kid, oh I kid)

[LFC8]

Maybe all the confusion is because Gilberto plays like he's 6'3. Great touch and no finish. Ohhhh I dun did it!

[habstfc]

On the over/under of 5 goals, I'll take the over every day of the week. I'm with Trane, I'll say he scores 10.

[Oblio2]

He is not a flop.
Jesus, so quick to judge.
He would be a flop if he wasnt trying, wasnt moving, wasnt competing, wasnt getting chances....but not scoring for a new club, learning the langauge, the City, his teammates.....he is trying. he isnt a flop. For Gods sake, some of you are so quick to label a footballer, no wonder players get sick of this shit.

[MartinUtd]

I don't think players read message boards. If they do, they're probably not too serious about being professional footballers.

And for the record, I don't think anyone has come out and said he is in fact a 100% demonstrated flop. But after two months the worries are justified and I was curious who else felt the same way. And how many people will switch sides if the same form persists another month, and then another...

[T-boy]

Gilberto has played 8 full games. If Defo goes on a dry spell of 8 games in the middle of this season, will everybody suddenly be calling him a flop? Chances are Defoe will go on a dry spell, most strikers do at some point in the season.

[Canary10]

A lot of the things I hear people saying to defend him are pretty subjective. In other words, you can see what you want to see. Any of the hard evidence (goals/assists for example), just doesn't bear out that he's in for a turnaround. Anyone have any passing stats or chances created stats, etc, that might give us some hope?

[brad]

A lot of the things I hear people saying to defend him are pretty subjective. In other words, you can see what you want to see. Any of the hard evidence (goals/assists for example), just doesn't bear out that he's in for a turnaround. Anyone have any passing stats or chances created stats, etc, that might give us some hope?

You can get at a lot of this stuff on the MLS site - see the NY game here:

http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2014-05-17-toronto-fc-vs-new-york-red-bulls/boxscore (scroll down for the ability to drill in on player stats).

In the NYRB game, from a stats perspective- he didn't look to good.

1 shot - off target from inside the 6 yard box
7 passes total - 4 completed passes, 3 unsuccessful
1 tackle, 2 interception, 2 recoveries
1 unsuccessful dribble
1 foul won

[Canary10]

You can get at a lot of this stuff on the MLS site - see the NY game here:

http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2014-05-17-toronto-fc-vs-new-york-red-bulls/boxscore (scroll down for the ability to drill in on player stats).

In the NYRB game, from a stats perspective- he didn't look to good.

1 shot - off target from inside the 6 yard box
7 passes total - 4 completed passes, 3 unsuccessful
1 tackle, 2 interception, 2 recoveries
1 unsuccessful dribble
1 foul won

I was trying to look at the game stats but I keep getting page errors. Strange. That link worked though. Thanks.

[Areathrasher]

A lot of the things I hear people saying to defend him are pretty subjective. In other words, you can see what you want to see. Any of the hard evidence (goals/assists for example), just doesn't bear out that he's in for a turnaround. Anyone have any passing stats or chances created stats, etc, that might give us some hope?

Here are is stats from WhoScored http://www.whoscored.com/Players/101698

[ryan]

Ryan dude, he is a dp striker. 'the important stuff' is scoring and assisting goals. That's his role. Its not a bonus that is less important than good off the ball positioning, movement, passing and defensive play. Sure all these things make a good player, but fulfilling your role withing the team would top the list in my book.

Doing all the important things wrong but potting a few goals just doesnt make sense here, because potting a few goals IS the important stuff.

There are people who are claiming that he is showing brilliance, style, intelligence etc... None of these things complete a striker. You know what does.

Is our fledgling DP better suited to another role? maybe, but we shouldnt have to pay DP money to find that out.

Im not sure who or what youre comparing to the leafs, but what i get from the comparison, is that were playing bottom end football and somehow scraping some results?

I really hate the whole DP concept in these debates. This magically stupid MLS label automatically puts all these expectations, as opposed to if he was just a player making X money.

Anyways, I know what his role is and how he's supposed to score. I also know, players of HIGHER caliber and HIGHER wages have had longer stretches to break things into play in this league, as well as others.

We're a dysfunctional franchise trying to become something proper, with a (basically) rookie coach, a team of brand new faces (thus no existing chemistry), he doesn't speak English, no pre-season to acclimatize, arrived with an injury, couldn't even play in the first two matches, our wingers couldn't serve a beer (or stay healthy, or consistent...our central Mids have been a bit the same).........can I continue? I don't want to play the excuse card here, but holy fuck why is the entire scenario so oblivious to some people? 7 league matches and we're calling for his head because he's a magical mickey mouse "DP"? Good grief. Under the circumstances, some initial growing pains HAD to be expected, no? Why is the leash so short for him? Is this just butthurtness over Laba? I just don't understand the extreme stance seen throughout the thread against this guy. You'd think he'd diddled all your wives.


Yeah potting goals "IS the important stuff" but my analogy shows that if you're not doing your entire job proper, in the long run, YOU WILL FAIL. If you do things proper, in the long run, you will find your success. Stats and probability. He's been within inches of a handful of goals, we've all seen that. If he keeps his confidence up and doing the right things, the goals WILL come. Numbers don't lie.


FWIW, he didn't score until the 9th league match of Portuguesa's 2013 season, on a PK. Didn't score from the run of play until the 14th league match. 10 matches later he had 10 more goals. Some scorers are streaky, so be it. Our consistent scorer is Defoe, that's why we pay him 6X the money.

You guys have an argument at season's end if there's little or nothing to show for his season. After 7 league matches? LOL please.

[Areathrasher]

I really hate the whole DP concept in these debates. This magically stupid MLS label automatically puts all these expectations, as opposed to if he was just a player making X money.

Anyways, I know what his role is and how he's supposed to score. I also know, players of HIGHER caliber and HIGHER wages have had longer stretches to break things into play in this league, as well as others.

We're a dysfunctional franchise trying to become something proper, with a (basically) rookie coach, a team of brand new faces (thus no existing chemistry), he doesn't speak English, no pre-season to acclimatize, arrived with an injury, couldn't even play in the first two matches, our wingers couldn't serve a beer (or stay healthy, or consistent...our central Mids have been a bit the same).........can I continue? I don't want to play the excuse card here, but holy fuck why is the entire scenario so oblivious to some people? 7 league matches and we're calling for his head because he's a magical mickey mouse "DP"? Good grief. Under the circumstances, some initial growing pains HAD to be expected, no? Why is the leash so short for him? Is this just butthurtness over Laba? I just don't understand the extreme stance seen throughout the thread against this guy. You'd think he'd diddled all your wives.


Yeah potting goals "IS the important stuff" but my analogy shows that if you're not doing your entire job proper, in the long run, YOU WILL FAIL. If you do things proper, in the long run, you will find your success. Stats and probability. He's been within inches of a handful of goals, we've all seen that. If he keeps his confidence up and doing the right things, the goals WILL come. Numbers don't lie.


FWIW, he didn't score until the 9th league match of Portuguesa's 2013 season, on a PK. Didn't score from the run of play until the 14th league match. 10 matches later he had 10 more goals. Some scorers are streaky, so be it. Our consistent scorer is Defoe, that's why we pay him 6X the money.

You guys have an argument at season's end if there's little or nothing to show for his season. After 7 league matches? LOL please.

http://byt.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/tumblr_m2yarbuyFD1qihztbo1_500.gif

[lobo]

A lot of the things I hear people saying to defend him are pretty subjective. In other words, you can see what you want to see. Any of the hard evidence (goals/assists for example), just doesn't bear out that he's in for a turnaround. Anyone have any passing stats or chances created stats, etc, that might give us some hope?

obviously, you will only see what you want to see in any other stats also, but i will offer this ... in 7 MLS games, gilberto has suffered more fouls (13) than any other TFC player --- to me that suggests he is working hard and causing a lot of trouble for defenders, and yet he also leads the team in shots taken (18), obviously none have hit the back of the net yet ... but he is creating chances and if other teams are keying on him, it seems they see the potential for danger that he can create.

--------------------

we clearly have 2 camps here --- those who view the success of our young brazilian striker based on a single metric only, goals scored, and consider him a flop after just a handful of games with no goals scored ... and those who view his play from a broader perspective and see quality and the potential of a bright MLS future for him on our team.

so, let's just call him a flop, if that will appease the people howling at him. no goals in 7 MLS games - flop. no goals in 2 ACC games - flop flop. gilberto is a clearly a flop, a truly unmitigated disaster of a signing ... until he starts scoring, of course, and then the hounds here can start chasing their next target.

a couple things are clear, gilberto is not going anywhere and he is not giving up, so can we please have a little patience and not run this kid outta town

[Red Rat]

I really hate the whole DP concept in these debates. This magically stupid MLS label automatically puts all these expectations, as opposed to if he was just a player making X money.

Anyways, I know what his role is and how he's supposed to score. I also know, players of HIGHER caliber and HIGHER wages have had longer stretches to break things into play in this league, as well as others.

We're a dysfunctional franchise trying to become something proper, with a (basically) rookie coach, a team of brand new faces (thus no existing chemistry), he doesn't speak English, no pre-season to acclimatize, arrived with an injury, couldn't even play in the first two matches, our wingers couldn't serve a beer (or stay healthy, or consistent...our central Mids have been a bit the same).........can I continue? I don't want to play the excuse card here, but holy fuck why is the entire scenario so oblivious to some people? 7 league matches and we're calling for his head because he's a magical mickey mouse "DP"? Good grief. Under the circumstances, some initial growing pains HAD to be expected, no? Why is the leash so short for him? Is this just butthurtness over Laba? I just don't understand the extreme stance seen throughout the thread against this guy. You'd think he'd diddled all your wives.


Yeah potting goals "IS the important stuff" but my analogy shows that if you're not doing your entire job proper, in the long run, YOU WILL FAIL. If you do things proper, in the long run, you will find your success. Stats and probability. He's been within inches of a handful of goals, we've all seen that. If he keeps his confidence up and doing the right things, the goals WILL come. Numbers don't lie.


FWIW, he didn't score until the 9th league match of Portuguesa's 2013 season, on a PK. Didn't score from the run of play until the 14th league match. 10 matches later he had 10 more goals. Some scorers are streaky, so be it. Our consistent scorer is Defoe, that's why we pay him 6X the money.

You guys have an argument at season's end if there's little or nothing to show for his season. After 7 league matches? LOL please.

This is the main reason I can't take part of board topics anymore, and reserve my post for funny subjects.

[jabbronies]

I really hate the whole DP concept in these debates. This magically stupid MLS label automatically puts all these expectations, as opposed to if he was just a player making X money.

Anyways, I know what his role is and how he's supposed to score. I also know, players of HIGHER caliber and HIGHER wages have had longer stretches to break things into play in this league, as well as others.

We're a dysfunctional franchise trying to become something proper, with a (basically) rookie coach, a team of brand new faces (thus no existing chemistry), he doesn't speak English, no pre-season to acclimatize, arrived with an injury, couldn't even play in the first two matches, our wingers couldn't serve a beer (or stay healthy, or consistent...our central Mids have been a bit the same).........can I continue? I don't want to play the excuse card here, but holy fuck why is the entire scenario so oblivious to some people? 7 league matches and we're calling for his head because he's a magical mickey mouse "DP"? Good grief. Under the circumstances, some initial growing pains HAD to be expected, no? Why is the leash so short for him? Is this just butthurtness over Laba? I just don't understand the extreme stance seen throughout the thread against this guy. You'd think he'd diddled all your wives.


Yeah potting goals "IS the important stuff" but my analogy shows that if you're not doing your entire job proper, in the long run, YOU WILL FAIL. If you do things proper, in the long run, you will find your success. Stats and probability. He's been within inches of a handful of goals, we've all seen that. If he keeps his confidence up and doing the right things, the goals WILL come. Numbers don't lie.


FWIW, he didn't score until the 9th league match of Portuguesa's 2013 season, on a PK. Didn't score from the run of play until the 14th league match. 10 matches later he had 10 more goals. Some scorers are streaky, so be it. Our consistent scorer is Defoe, that's why we pay him 6X the money.

You guys have an argument at season's end if there's little or nothing to show for his season. After 7 league matches? LOL please.

He isn't doing his entire job properly. Part of his job is to score goals. So you are right, he is failing at his job.

The argument is on the table right now, not at seasons end when it's too late. Whenever we drop points due to lack of scoring the first two guys who you look to are the strikers. If they are not scoring, then there is a problem that needs fixing.

I realize people don't like when the DP tag set expectations on a player - but the reality is that in professional sports - not just in MLS - when you pay a high price tag for a player, it's because you expect them to deliver right away. Not in months or years down the road.

If you want to talk stats - When you are the 10th highest paid player in the league and you are no where near that in any stats category in the league, then you have to start questioning the value of that player. Not even talking about goals - let's talk assist, passing percentage, tackles, ball possession, Shots on Goal percentage.....he is nowhere to be found within the top 10 of any stats in the league.

All of the "Gilberto can do no wrong" people on this board need to realize there are other options to fixing the problem that don't include dropping the player at the first available transfer window. Use him as a sub so that he is the sharpest player on the pitch for 25-30 minutes and hope he can pot a goal in with that advantage. Change up the system - if he isn't a pure striker and just does everything else so well, play him behind Defoe and play to his strengths.

To sit there and say - nothing is wrong, he'll come around - is wrong! Something is wrong in his game and it needs to change soon.

[Parkdale]

I say no, because he's hustling and we're still getting goals. He's been so close that it's only a matter of luck (hitting the post as often as he does is a sign of unhappy soccer gods, not skill IMO)

I'm happy with his work rate - the goals will come.



he's not Mista, or Ali Gerba, or late career Cunningham, or Lombardo (poor kid had the weight of the club thrust on his shoulders)...

[Phil]

hahaha, I bet if we cut him from the contract the guys moaning about him being a flop would be the first ones complaining about the revolving door.

Just saying sometimes this place is total crap for these types of arguments. Yes the DP tag carries a lot but it was a risk and bringing in a young unproven goal scorer was a gamble. I sincerly hope he gets going because if he does the regular offence would be very welcome.

[ensco]

hahaha, I bet if we cut him from the contract the guys moaning about him being a flop would be the first ones complaining about the revolving door.

Not me.

The expensive guys, and the young guys, they turn over every year. They always have in this league, and they always will.

You need a core of domestics that are average or a little better, and have a bit of versatility. THOSE are the guys you have to find, and you don't turn them over. That's what made me insane about losing Silva (and Cronin before him). It's why I like the Warner deal.

Just to be ridiculously clear: the impending summer window is a massive consideration, it's when the best quality is available. "Giving up" on Gilberto isn't just about a lack of patience, it's about the fact that the options to replace him are far better in July than they are in December.

[Areathrasher]

Not me.

The expensive guys, and the young guys, they turn over every year. They always have in this league, and they always will.

You need a core of domestics that are average or a little better, and have a bit of versatility. THOSE are the guys you have to find, and you don't turn them over. That's what made me insane about losing Silva (and Cronin before him). It's why I like the Warner deal.

Just to be ridiculously clear: the impending summer window is a massive consideration, it's when the best quality is available. "Giving up" on Gilberto isn't just about a lack of patience, it's about the fact that the options to replace him are far better in July than they are in December.
Who, in theory, is out there to replace him in July?
And if so aren't you falling into the same cycle of giving a new player time to settle in be they a European vet coming off a full season or another young prospect.

[ensco]

Who, in theory, is out there to replace him in July?
And if so aren't you falling into the same cycle of giving a new player time to settle in be they a European vet coming off a full season or another young prospect.

I will answer this the way Tim Leiweke would: someone who sells a lot more tickets.

[CommradePolski]

I know Gilberto will score.

My beard knows. My beard is afraid.

#beardsforgilberto

[ginkster88]

You need a core of domestics that are average or a little better, and have a bit of versatility. THOSE are the guys you have to find, and you don't turn them over. That's what made me insane about losing Silva (and Cronin before him). It's why I like the Warner deal.

Everybody agrees that losing Cronin was an absolute disaster. He would be so useful right now, and would have been every year since he was gone.

Fuck you Preki.

[Canary10]

Everybody agrees that losing Cronin was an absolute disaster. He would be so useful right now, and would have been every year since he was gone.

Fuck you Preki.

Someone else would have traded him after anyway.

[ryan]

He isn't doing his entire job properly. Part of his job is to score goals. So you are right, he is failing at his job.

The argument is on the table right now, not at seasons end when it's too late. Whenever we drop points due to lack of scoring the first two guys who you look to are the strikers. If they are not scoring, then there is a problem that needs fixing.

I realize people don't like when the DP tag set expectations on a player - but the reality is that in professional sports - not just in MLS - when you pay a high price tag for a player, it's because you expect them to deliver right away. Not in months or years down the road.

If you want to talk stats - When you are the 10th highest paid player in the league and you are no where near that in any stats category in the league, then you have to start questioning the value of that player. Not even talking about goals - let's talk assist, passing percentage, tackles, ball possession, Shots on Goal percentage.....he is nowhere to be found within the top 10 of any stats in the league.

All of the "Gilberto can do no wrong" people on this board need to realize there are other options to fixing the problem that don't include dropping the player at the first available transfer window. Use him as a sub so that he is the sharpest player on the pitch for 25-30 minutes and hope he can pot a goal in with that advantage. Change up the system - if he isn't a pure striker and just does everything else so well, play him behind Defoe and play to his strengths.

To sit there and say - nothing is wrong, he'll come around - is wrong! Something is wrong in his game and it needs to change soon.

I don't believe, definitely for me, but truly don't think for his supporters as well, that we think "Gilberto can do no wrong." We're just as miffed he's not scored goals as anyone else. We simply manage to look at the value he does off the ball, the things he does well, oh and of course, we understand what a proper sample size is for this type of evaluation. 7 league matches under these circumstances, absolutely is not a proper sample size IMO.

I also don't think I've said "nothing is wrong" at any point, if I did I'm mistaken. :)


Had his posts and very near misses, been goals, he'd be leading our team by 1 or 2. He's close because he's doing positive and useful things on the pitch. He's not scored because he's been a bit unlucky IMO, as opposed to potting a few goals luckily while not doing the right things, that would be unsettling to me. I see reason to believe things will come around for him, I don't see reason to think this will carry on forever as is.

Time will tell if my analysis is correct, that's he's simply not been lucky and the goals happen. Or if your thoughts are correct, the goals won't come because there's something wrong with him and or his game.

For now though, definitive statements like "he's a flop," and to be entirely fair, "nothing is wrong," are comical at this point.

[trane]

Calling out and insulting are two different things.

You choose to assume he must be wrong, and assume he was talking about a player even though his entire post pointed to Cooper, and a simple check of Coopers Height would have cleared it up.

LAST POST ON THIS. I was asking him to clarify his point. That is it. No more no less. But I will tell you this clearly I find this very annoying. Proverbial tempest in a teapot. (small tempest but an annoying one) Please stop, as I have a hard time not responding, but I will not.

ENSCO- I take that as a compliment.

Ryan I agree, with you saying that nothing is wrong is wrong, but I do not thing that most of those that see the quality in Gilberto are saying that.

[jabbronies]

hahaha, I bet if we cut him from the contract the guys moaning about him being a flop would be the first ones complaining about the revolving door.

Just saying sometimes this place is total crap for these types of arguments. Yes the DP tag carries a lot but it was a risk and bringing in a young unproven goal scorer was a gamble. I sincerly hope he gets going because if he does the regular offence would be very welcome.

Take him off that DP contract and on to a regular MLS contract and he can take his sweet ass time scoring.

[jabbronies]

I don't believe, definitely for me, but truly don't think for his supporters as well, that we think "Gilberto can do no wrong." We're just as miffed he's not scored goals as anyone else. We simply manage to look at the value he does off the ball, the things he does well, oh and of course, we understand what a proper sample size is for this type of evaluation. 7 league matches under these circumstances, absolutely is not a proper sample size IMO.

I also don't think I've said "nothing is wrong" at any point, if I did I'm mistaken. :)


Had his posts and very near misses, been goals, he'd be leading our team by 1 or 2. He's close because he's doing positive and useful things on the pitch. He's not scored because he's been a bit unlucky IMO, as opposed to potting a few goals luckily while not doing the right things, that would be unsettling to me. I see reason to believe things will come around for him, I don't see reason to think this will carry on forever as is.

Time will tell if my analysis is correct, that's he's simply not been lucky and the goals happen. Or if your thoughts are correct, the goals won't come because there's something wrong with him and or his game.

For now though, definitive statements like "he's a flop," and to be entirely fair, "nothing is wrong," are comical at this point.

There is no question he is doing other things well. In the overall scheme of things in his 7 games here the positives have done little to contribute to the offensive output.

I could care less if he scored no goals all season but lead the league, or at this point the team, in assists. At least then his efforts would for something.

I'm not saying the guy is useless, but do we really need him to drop back to the defensive line and retrieve balls? Or track across the pitch to his opposite side behind the winger to retrieve a ball from a wing back - these are not normal things a striker does - these are desperate things strikers do to try and make an impact on the pitch when they/the team is not scoring.

[Blixa]

He needs more time. He reminds me of Lewandowski's first season at Dortmund. You could see the potential but it just wasn't clicking until he scored a couple and gained confidence.

[LFC8]

Take him off that DP contract and on to a regular MLS contract and he can take his sweet ass time scoring.

Exactly. No one has started a thread about DeRo being a flop. Why? Because he ain't a DP.

[LFC8]

Who, in theory, is out there to replace him in July?
And if so aren't you falling into the same cycle of giving a new player time to settle in be they a European vet coming off a full season or another young prospect.

There's loads of players out there to replace Gilberto. It's just, do they want to come to the MLS?

[Shakes McQueen]

If he still isn't scoring by the transfer window, then obviously it may be time to look at a change. Until then, I think he's doing the right things, and has just been unfortunate. He scores one or two of his near-misses, and the conversation around him is completely different right now, precisely because he has been pretty great otherwise.

Brazilian nets aren't any bigger than MLS nets. I'm confident he will figure it out.

And if he doesn't, then obviously we can't afford to keep around a striker that doesn't strike indefinitely.

[Thomas]

I object to this sometimes oversimplified and polarized view of 2 camps: Defend Gilli at all costs even if he hasn't scored yet, or dump him as he is paid to score and he hasn't scored yet. I think a number of us fall somewhere in between. My view is he has made some positive contributions to the team thus far and is on the right trajectory even though he hasn't scored a goal yet. At the same time, I also feel that there are valid concerns re his lack of goal scoring production.......and if he doesn't start scoring some goals by later on this summer this should be a major concern.

[jabbronies]

Who, in theory, is out there to replace him in July?
And if so aren't you falling into the same cycle of giving a new player time to settle in be they a European vet coming off a full season or another young prospect.

I agree, You can't replace him in July transfer window. At that point you are starting from scratch and not making any progress. What's to say we don't get Mista Pt 2 in the next guy

[jabbronies]

I object to this sometimes oversimplified and polarized view of 2 camps: Defend Gilli at all costs even if he hasn't scored yet, or dump him as he is paid to score and he hasn't scored yet. I think a number of us fall somewhere in between. My view is he has made some positive contributions to the team thus far and is on the right trajectory even though he hasn't scored a goal yet. At the same time, I also feel that there are valid concerns re his lack of goal scoring production.......and if he doesn't start scoring some goals by later on this summer this should be a major concern.


This right here.

[LFC_TFC]

After 10 games......I'm disappointed, but I wouldn't consider anyone a flop till they finish at least one season

[Pookie]

Just for fun.. Only goal scorers this year that are still on the roster are... Defoe, Bradley, Jackson.

Our opponent this week SKC, has 7 scorers thus far.

Gilberto isn't the only one struggling.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I object to this sometimes oversimplified and polarized view of 2 camps: Defend Gilli at all costs even if he hasn't scored yet, or dump him as he is paid to score and he hasn't scored yet. I think a number of us fall somewhere in between. My view is he has made some positive contributions to the team thus far and is on the right trajectory even though he hasn't scored a goal yet. At the same time, I also feel that there are valid concerns re his lack of goal scoring production.......and if he doesn't start scoring some goals by later on this summer this should be a major concern.

Ahhh the internet.

http://happyhealth.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Elephant-Balance.jpg

[brad]

Just for fun.. Only goal scorers this year that are still on the roster are... Defoe, Bradley, Jackson.

Our opponent this week SKC, has 7 scorers thus far.

Gilberto isn't the only one struggling.

Moore has one as well. But your point still stands.

[Alonso]

So with an over/under of 5 goals for the season, who would take the over?

Btw, for those I have bets with that Urutti would score more goals than Gilberto, he's on 3 right now.

I think I took this bet didn't I?

PS. Gilberto opens his account tonight

[Canary10]

I think I took this bet didn't I?

PS. Gilberto opens his account tonight

Yeah you did. And I hope you're right!

[MKR]

giberto keeps on truckin' with his goose egg. Said it in the game thread and i'll say it again Pablo Vitti taking up a DP spot.

[notthesun]

Certainly looks pretty poor on Gilberto that Moore already has 2 goals with so few minutes while Gilberto still can't buy one.

[burlington Red]

I said it in the other thread but will say it here too. Gilberto is neither a target man or a "number 10". He isn't big enough or strong enough to play target man in this league, nor does he have the ability to drop deep, probe and pick up the ball and play through balls to his strike partner in a number 10 role.
Some might say he played a through ball to Defoe v Vancouver, but it's not enough in the amount of games he has played. He has no chemistry with Defoe. Defoe is actually dropping deep and playing through balls to him as he did V SKC, when Gilberto couldn't even hold his run and was caught offside.
Not saying the guy is weak, but if you want to fulfil Defoe's potential, I think he needs a more compatible strike partner. Luke Moore ain't no super striker, but it's plain to see that he links up much more seemlessly than Gilberto ,aNd I am no Moore fan btw having grown up watching him play week in week out in UK.

[Alonso]

I don't think the team is playing to the strengths of either Defoe or Gilberto. That is on Nelsen.

That being said, I don't want anyone dumped or fired. I want to see improvements and learning.

I also don't like the style we are playing, but we are getting points (more than ever before in our history) so what the fuck do I know?

Boring soccer wins after all?

A couple of potent finishers and park the bus has won many a game for teams.

[MikeM]

Gilberto is most comfortable in Defoe's role. They're both poachers who only have eyes for goal. Gilberto is more of a target man - poacher player. Defoe is more of a counter attack - poacher player. Defoe will excel in this system where we funnel everything towards him in space on counter attacks. Gilberto is just taking up the space right now. He's playing an unused position in Nelsen's underwhelming system.

[trane]

^ Last night really led me to believe that we need a correction in the system, that not only upfront that in the mid, we could get more with a better system.

[ensco]

I also don't like the style we are playing, but we are getting points (more than ever before in our history) so what the fuck do I know?

Boring soccer wins after all?




Preki had us at 4 wins and a tie in 9 games.

Not much to say about Gilberto. It's not working. Moore should be starting next week.