Is Nelsen The right man for the job?

[69Chevy396]

Seems to me he has learned nothing from past seasons. Last night was yet another game where the other team appeared more organized, and demonstrated far more creativity on offence. Despite the rotten officiating, TFC did not play well at either end, and giving up 16 corners was pathetic.

[adam1001]

I very much doubt that he is. I know that this is a new roster and all, but this team plays some excruciatingly ugly soccer. We rely on hoofball more so than Mariner did and our pass completion is shocking, to say the least. If we do accomplish anything this year, it will be because of the individual talent and drive of players like Bradley, not because of Nelsen's coaching abilities.

[TorontoGooner]

This is a joke thread, right?

[Pint]

So we go from great tactical approach vs the crew to questioning if he should be fired now?

We are 3-3 and 3rd in the table in the east after 6 games (with games in hand on most teams behind us) as well as 4 of the 6 have been tough road games with a patchwork lineup. I'm not sure what people were expecting early in the season? most of the team had not played together before and it was always going to take some time for the guys to get familiar with each other. Lets see how they look over the next group of home games as that should give us a much better picture of what this team will be this season.

[Yohan]

This is a joke thread, right?
lol. panic! TFC world is collapsing! we're doomed and we haven't even played 10 games into the season!

[backbeat]

http://www.preparedsociety.com/images/1/7/6/4/0/sky-falling-123.jpg

[TFC07]

I personally hate type of soccer we're playing these days. It's too defensive for a team with a lot of firepower up front. We need to be more offensive minded with group we have. Sitting back is for teams who aren't strong with talented players so they rely on counter attack to score. TFC should be team imposing their will not other way around.

[jloome]

Too early to say. He seems pretty inspiring, players like him and want to come here.

The only knock I would say seems evident by now is the faith he puts in our backups. He was in MLS as a player at a different time, and back then, these kind of guys could have a positive effect in this league. But when you look at the rosters of the top competitors in the league, they've been much more aggressive about ensuring every player is a fighter.

We have all these debates over whether Bekker will make it. I can tell you this: No matter how technically gifted he is, if he doesn't play aggressively game in and out, he will not make it in this league. If he's not doing it by the end of this season, it's a risk to keep him around. The travel and injuries in this league mean every position is important. We can't have ANY players in our first 22 who aren't able to compete to start, if we want to be a winner.

So we have to wait to see what he does about that. It's a much bigger issue to me than tactics; it's one thing to be a well-liked coach but able to maintain efficacy and discipline; it's another to be friends with the players and not see their faults or be willing to replace them.

Next year is the real teller because we have so much room to move, thanks to the (five?) first round draft picks we're now holding. That's five potential starters; that's what we have to get out of it, even if they're fighting for those spots all the time.

[TorontoGooner]

lol. panic! TFC world is collapsing! we're doomed and we haven't even played 10 games into the season!

Lol. Exactly

[Red CB Toronto]

Ryan Nelson has to stay for now, we all know the injuries that have taken hold of this team the last few weeks. Last night was unfortunate but with the General playing at not an ideal level and others out, it has proven that this is a different team when the big boys are out. Now with the bye week everyone can rest up, get healthy and be ready for May 3rd. This bye week could not come at a better time. Nellie has played a key role in a lot of things this year, how amazing was Julio last night things could have been much worse.

[OgtheDim]

This is a joke thread, right?

More like a hobby horse ride.

[prizby]

first time he goes away from his 4-4-2, which a ton of people have been asking for in the past, and now we question whether he is the right man for the job.

I thought he had the tactics right last night. I have never liked how we have defended corners in a static position, but I think our defensive ability on set pieces and just defence alone has vastly improved.

Nelsen had a broken line up last night and put out the best he could and set them up the best way they could succeed and if it weren't for some brutal refereeing, we'd be talking about 3 points or at least a point rather than this

what a pointless, stupid thread

[speckles]

first time he goes away from his 4-4-2, which a ton of people have been asking for in the past, and now we question whether he is the right man for the job.

I thought he had the tactics right last night. I have never liked how we have defended corners in a static position, but I think our defensive ability on set pieces and just defence alone has vastly improved.

Nelsen had a broken line up last night and put out the best he could and set them up the best way they could succeed and if it weren't for some brutal refereeing, we'd be talking about 3 points or at least a point rather than this

what a pointless, stupid thread

Well said, he has made us competitive in every game todate, concerning talent I don't think most poster realize how hard it was to sell TFC to class players at the end of last season let alone depth players...still more work to be done however you cannot build a club in a matter of months.

[starter]

Do we need this thread?
Are we thinking the same thing?
Do you like what you see from this team, or you starting to switch channels?
Nelsen on the second year. He has not done anything yet to deserve a free ride.
Players like him? Apparently players liked most of our old managers, with a couple of exceptions, 'pricks', that actually tried to teach them something.
IMO very useful thread. Keep it up!

[adam1001]

Do we need this thread?
Are we thinking the same thing?
Do you like what you see from this team, or you starting to switch channels?
Nelsen on the second year. He has not done anything yet to deserve a free ride.
Players like him? Apparently players liked most of our old managers, with a couple of exceptions, 'pricks', that actually tried to teach them something.
IMO very useful thread. Keep it up!

Exactly... some pretty condescending remarks in this thread. Having just spent a fortune on revamping our roster, it's completely beyond me that people are content with these performances.

[molenshtain]

^^ It's completely beyond me that people are disregarding the circumstances in which this team and Nelsen have had to cope. It's six fucking games into the season with an almost entirely new starting 11 with tons of injuries. It's not a free ride if it's six games into the season, OF WHICH WE'VE WON HALF OF OUR GAMES.

There is definetly still work to be done, on the personnel side and the tactics side. But Nelsen is trying to just get as many point out of a difficult stretch as possible and he's done that admirably. Like I said on the Dallas thread, Let's at least wait until at least halfway through this home stand to judge Nelsen on his tactics and so forth.

[prizby]

Exactly... some pretty condescending remarks in this thread. Having just spent a fortune on revamping our roster, it's completely beyond me that people are content with these performances.

when man city bought a whole new team of players (ie. spent a fortune on revamping their roster) were they immediately contending for the premier league title?

They finished 10th the first season; and it took them 3 years just to get champions league football

[starter]

when man city bought a whole new team of players (ie. spent a fortune on revamping their roster) were they immediately contending for the premier league title?

They finished 10th the first season; and it took them 3 years just to get champions league football

Did they pick up a player-coach with them?

[prizby]

Did they pick up a player-coach with them?

what would you call Mark Hughes

[starter]

what would you call Mark Hughes
Is there something TFC can learn from this?

[DreFuss]

I move to table this question until the end of the season. All in favour?

[prizby]

Is there something TFC can learn from this?

patience

[gate7]

last season we dumped several games in the last 10 min of the game.........now we have a different team except for Nielsen and Hall and we've twice lost points in the last 10 yet again........just sayin....i don't see Nielsen here next season if this continues.

[starter]

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/images/styles/AnimatedArena/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by starter http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/images/styles/AnimatedArena/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?p=1663243#post1663243)
Is there something TFC can learn from this?

patience

I think there is more we can learn from it, like
GET A GOOD MANAGER.

[molenshtain]

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/images/styles/AnimatedArena/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by starter http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/images/styles/AnimatedArena/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?p=1663243#post1663243)
Is there something TFC can learn from this?


I think there is more we can learn from it, like
GET A GOOD MANAGER.

I don't know if you noticed but we're in a playoff spot.

[West220Side]

Nelsen is a young coach with a lot of connections over seas to multiple (english) clubs and some argue because of this he should stay off the bench and be some sort of General Manager. Well, Nelsen is exactly what I just said a young coach, he's *obviously* in control of the locker room and the lads really want to play and win for him, but he's still learning and as far as I know hasn't taken any courses in his busy off seasons.

He's going to learn as he goes, and our league is exactly the place where people learn we're not the top flight of british football. With his squad healthy he would have taken points from games where we've dropped points.. such as Dallas.

His hoofball tactics seem to be more of a compensation for the poor home pitch, and other factors than a direct poor knowledge of football.

Nelsen has my support, until the summer when I can re-access as an individual what he's accomplished.

[T-boy]

I'm wondering if the same people who were arguing to keep Winter when we were 0-9 are now arguing to can Nelson when we are 3-3?! haha!

I honestly do wonder if some fans won't be happy until we win every single game of the season by ten goals to nil. Then we have a good team, right?

[TorontoGooner]

first time he goes away from his 4-4-2, which a ton of people have been asking for in the past, and now we question whether he is the right man for the job.

I thought he had the tactics right last night. I have never liked how we have defended corners in a static position, but I think our defensive ability on set pieces and just defence alone has vastly improved.

Nelsen had a broken line up last night and put out the best he could and set them up the best way they could succeed and if it weren't for some brutal refereeing, we'd be talking about 3 points or at least a point rather than this

what a pointless, stupid thread

Absolutely right. All Toronto fans want to do is moan

[Jack]

To the thread poster, you'd have to say "seems to me Nelsen has learned nothing from the one season he was a manager of a broken team after coming over right from playing" as opposed to "past seasons". This is a work in progress, for him and for the roster. If we suddenly go and lose 8 in a row, then ask questions, but we are in the early days if the TFC revamp and I like the direction, provided the coach and the roster continue to develop.

[backbeat]

just sayin' but this is SO Toronto sports 'fans'....

we're near the top of the table

a whackful of injuries

a horde of new players who have never played together before

6 games into the season

and we are questioning whether we need to dump the coach.....

unbelievable.....maybe Pep or Jose are available....

[starter]

TFC won its' points playing cleverly on a counter.
TFC lost its' points playing on a counter too. That is the way we have been playing for all the Nelsen tenure.
Even the fact that the players look happy somehow fails to please me.
You can say some people never happy.

[shwade]

Nelsen is more important for hos connections and ability to bring certain types of players in.

[Initial B]

I expected TFC to be 3-4-3 by the World Cup break. They're just about where I expect with a doing better than I thought at this point. I'm tired of the coaching merry-go-round. I say keep Nelsen through to the end of the season, wait and see what pieces Bez collects in the summer transfer window, then reassess in October.

[prizby]

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/images/styles/AnimatedArena/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by starter http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/images/styles/AnimatedArena/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?p=1663243#post1663243)
Is there something TFC can learn from this?


I think there is more we can learn from it, like
GET A GOOD MANAGER.

tfc have had their tactics right in 5 of the 6 games they have played...it is quite evident except for the Real Salt Lake match, they have been prepared for each match

[Pookie]

I would actually vote to keep Nelsen.

This is the MLS. It's not exactly a coveted coaching job. Most guys you are going to get applying are learn on the job types.

Yes there may be other options with experience but that's what Fran is supposedly for. Nelsen impresses me with his leadership and taking accountability for things.

I don't always agree with what he says but respect that he stands behind it.

[ExiledRed]

It must be obvious. There is no right man for this job. Holy fuck... how many now?

Its a job that nobody has done succesfully before and a job that has no historical precedent to suggest it can be done succesfully, within the structure it exists.

If he learns from his mistakes. adapts and overcomes the MLS obstacles, guides the team to the playoffs, and wins the adoration of the fans along the way then he could just be the right man for the job, yes.....

[OgtheDim]

Absolutely right. All Toronto fans want to do is moan


I don't think this is just a Toronto thing. There is a certain % of all teams support who don't like the current manager.

I'm sure right now there is a Brendan Rogers hater just waiting to pounce.

[Cashcleaner]

I don't know if you noticed but we're in a playoff spot.

Seriously? C'mon Mole. You can't say "It's six fucking games into the season..." and immediately talk about being playoff contention. :D


To the thread poster, you'd have to say "seems to me Nelsen has learned nothing from the one season he was a manager of a broken team after coming over right from playing" as opposed to "past seasons". This is a work in progress, for him and for the roster. If we suddenly go and lose 8 in a row, then ask questions, but we are in the early days if the TFC revamp and I like the direction, provided the coach and the roster continue to develop.

I'm gonna be honest, my faith in Nelsen's abilities are a little shaky. I definitely think we need more time to gauge what he can do with the current roster, but I'll admit it, he has me wondering just what his plan is during some games (the Colorado game especially). And I agree with a few of jloom's sentiments - should there be more discipline? That could very well be the case for a few players.

I agree that it's still very early in the season and the next few games could be polar opposites of what we've seen recently, but there are some nagging thoughts in the back of my mind.

[JuliquE]

Forgive me for having not read the thread, before replying.

In the heat of things, last night, I, too, suggested Nelson wasn't the man for the job. The truth is, as I'm sure others, here, have already pointed out, it's too early to say; four tough road games, in places we have historically done terribly, for the most part, and two early-season home games, on a horrible playing surface, is never going to tell the whole tale. Throw in some shocking decisions going against us and injuries to ca. 70% of our starting roster, and, with 9 points, I'd say we've done well enough.

What I will say is, when Nelson waits until the eighty-eighth min. to bring someone on, despite us being down a goal (read: still well in the game), it makes me question his tactical acumen. A coach will typically bring on a late-game sub. when his side are up a goal or level, as they look to waste time and hold on for a positive result. What is achieved, when you bring someone on at a time when every second is vital, in your efforts to claw your way level, with only a couple minutes to spare?! The player might get two touches of the ball, if that, meaning he doesn't really get a feel for the game.. meanwhile, that substitution just ate up some thirty-odd seconds, of maybe three minutes remaining. If you don't have enough quality on the bench, then leave the starters out there.. but, I will never understand why Nelson wouldn't sooner make his mind up on whether or not to send someone in (i.e. with, at least, ten to fifteen minutes -- preferably sooner, in many cases).

[Oldtimer]

Typical Toronto sports fan thread.

Nelsen is not a world class coach by any means, but his tactical ability so far is no worse than the average MLS coach. The result are actually above-average, TFC is in a playoff spot, and that's with the starting lineup having happened for exactly 1 game.

This is not 0-9. Let's wait until the end of the season to evaluate Nelsen.

[jimiv]

If change needs to addressed, perhaps the conditioning coach and medical staff should be looked at.

[MightyDM]

Totally agree.
I would actually vote to keep Nelsen.

This is the MLS. It's not exactly a coveted coaching job. Most guys you are going to get applying are learn on the job types.

Yes there may be other options with experience but that's what Fran is supposedly for. Nelsen impresses me with his leadership and taking accountability for things.

I don't always agree with what he says but respect that he stands behind it.

[Phil]

Meh, I have been scratching my head as to his quilifications since day one, but I do realize that for this team to do anything it needs stability. So sick of the blade hanging over everyones neck.

If he looses the room, then probably something needs to be done. Given the current record and the talent he attracts I think he is fine. I would like to see more tactics and better sub use, but that bench is pretty thin right now.

[BuSaPuNk]

Meh, I have been scratching my head as to his quilifications since day one, but I do realize that for this team to do anything it needs stability. So sick of the blade hanging over everyones neck.

If he looses the room, then probably something needs to be done. Given the current record and the talent he attracts I think he is fine. I would like to see more tactics and better sub use, but that bench is pretty thin right now.

Should have subbed Bendik to play up top ala Man City and David James!

Now if that happened I could understand people asking questions of Nelly.

We're 3-3. Games at home were scrappy on a bad pitch, and we won two of our three on the road. Now if we had our usual results we'd be 2-4 not 3-3. We're in a far better position after 6 games then any of us thought.

Give it time for injuries to sort themselves out and players to get into confidence playing with each other this includes the Halls, Bekkers, ect I the bench.

Nelly is playing a high quick pressing counter attacking style of 4-4-2 and it's paid off and hurt us. That's the give and take of the formation. The positive part is even games we've lost we havnt been blown out and havnt been completely played of the pitch for a full 90 minutes.

It's a long season boys.

[Pookie]

^ honest question though. When do injuries in sport ever sort themselves out?

I posted this brief look at Defoe's history in the news column. Here's his last year and a bit:

January 2013 - hip/ thigh injury
February 2013 - ankle injury
March 2013 - hip/thigh injury
September 2013 - groin injury
December 2013 - hamstring injury
February 2014 - hamstring injury
(And now March 2014 - hamstring injury)

… one might suggest that with Defoe, what you see is likely what we can expect. Nelsen needs to figure out how to deal with the likelihood of missing Defoe for significant games throughout the next 4 years.

Now, I could be wrong and this March 2014 injury will be his last for years but I think it's a safe bet that this will be a recurring factor until 2017-18.

Best to get it sorted as it probably isn't likely to sort itself.

[Canary10]

Nelsen had us in a position to steal three points, or at least steal points, from the top team in the league in their stadium. And people are complaining?

[Ultra & Proud]

Three weeks ago Nelsen is praised for his tactical superiority in our victory over Columbus away.

Now he is bush league because we lost in a place where we historically always lose, with a sub par line up and against a strong team.

[Pookie]

^ how was the line up against Dallas sub par? (Defoe aside)

[Canary10]

Seriously, this manic way of supporting TFC where they are complete shit, manager must go, everyone sucks, etc one week and we're the best team in the league the next week is really destructive. We really need to stop this week to week judging. It's the overall direction of results that is important. It's a marathon.

[BuSaPuNk]

^ how was the line up against Dallas sub par? (Defoe aside)

No Henry, Rey, Defoe, 100% Bradley or Osorio. As well as the bench missing 50% of regular subs off the bench. We had to have two keepers on the subs bench just to fill the bench.

Which was a brilliant move with the circumstances.

[adam1001]

tfc have had their tactics right in 5 of the 6 games they have played...it is quite evident except for the Real Salt Lake match, they have been prepared for each match
Your idea of 'getting tactics right' is scoring a lucky goal off a mistake or counter, and bunkering for 70 minutes hoping that the other team doesn't score? Giving up a record breaking number of corners because of a complete ineptitude in controlling the ball? Or waiting until the 90th minute to sub in a striker when we are down 1-0?

[Canary10]

Your idea of 'getting tactics right' is scoring a lucky goal off a mistake or counter, and bunkering for 70 minutes hoping that the other team doesn't score? Giving up a record breaking number of corners because of a complete ineptitude in controlling the ball? Or waiting until the 90th minute to sub in a striker when we are down 1-0?

You describe really well the way Everton beat Man United yesterday.....

[Fort York Redcoat]

Seriously, this manic way of supporting TFC where they are complete shit, manager must go, everyone sucks, etc one week and we're the best team in the league the next week is really destructive. We really need to stop this week to week judging. It's the overall direction of results that is important. It's a marathon.

Love the endpoint and agree many times over with it but let's look at the "we" in that point. Opinions here are always a makeup of people with different levels of breaking points and/or patience. Judging the collective as a whole is tantamount to "herding cats" level of chaos.

[Canary10]

Love the endpoint and agree many times over with it but let's look at the "we" in that point. Opinions here are always a makeup of people with different levels of breaking points and/or patience. Judging the collective as a whole is tantamount to "herding cats" level of chaos.

Ok, I'll start singling people out then. That seems to work well too. :)

I hear what you're saying. I don't know how else to make the point except to put it on everyone.

[Pookie]

No Henry, Rey, Defoe, 100% Bradley or Osorio. As well as the bench missing 50% of regular subs off the bench. We had to have two keepers on the subs bench just to fill the bench.

Which was a brilliant move with the circumstances.

Henry = Orr
Rey = Issey or Jackson
Morgan hasn't played
DeRo is in the Defoe get used to it category but even then isn't a 90 min guy

Bradley or Osorio may or may not be 100%. Fit enough to play.

Defoe? Yes but get used to that.

[starter]

Unlike in case with Mr. Mariner, I did want Nelsen to succeed, but his development as a coach appears too slow for me.

I want to enjoy beautiful game here and now. As professionals, I believe our current squad has more in them than Nelsen can realize

I think this thread is very useful to exchange opinions on the manager here, rather then in game threads.

[Pookie]

A lot of focus is on Nelsen.

What about O'Leary? Or the other assistants like Brennan? O'Leary was brought in to work with Nelsen and was a winner at the College level.

Or if the boat has leaks in it, does it really matter who the captain of the ship is? Said another way, could we expect different results with other coaches or do we simply need time to repair the boat (drafting well in 2015 being the start of that repair process)?

[molenshtain]

Starter's posts on this subject are starting to give me an aneurysm.

[jabbronies]

They played like shit on Saturday. Barley held the ball in any meaningful way throughout the game (Anyone who says possession doesn't mean anything is mental IMO).

I question Nelsen's ability to coach players forward. He was a defender and has that mentality when he coaches, you can see it in the way TFC are playing. No creativity moving forward. However, I wouldn't say that is 100% his fault.

I've seen some suspect passes/plays by TFC players this year. Some really bad decisions by players all over the pitch leading to turnovers. Someone pointed out earlier that we need to toughen up and I agree. I've also seen guys just ball watch on 50/50 plays. That one aspect alone could change our fortunes moving forward

[RoyalRed]

Legit thread, but too early.

Look at where we are 10 games in. either he'll silence the moaners and we'll be riding high, or we'll go 3-7 or 4-6 and we can then talk about his managerial chops in a more rational way with more empirical evidence.

[OgtheDim]

.. (Anyone who says possession doesn't mean anything is mental IMO).
..

Michael Bradley for one?

[Oldtimer]

I've seen some suspect passes/plays by TFC players this year. Some really bad decisions by players all over the pitch leading to turnovers.

That describes not just TFC but every MLS squad. The squads may have their Bradleys or Henrys, but the lesser players that fill out each squad just aren't that good. TFC's filler just needs to be as good as the average MLS squad's filler, not suddenly be EPL-quality players.

[starter]

Michael Bradley for one?
What else can Bradley say, when the team can not hold the ball -- yeah, we just suck at it ?

[OgtheDim]

What else can Bradley say, when the team can not hold the ball -- yeah, we just suck at it ?

So its not true if it doesn't fit your theory?


Meh.......this discussion belongs on Facebook.


Todays East Side Stand Up Pretty Much says it all

http://rednationonline.ca/portals/0/ess/images/thumb.jpg

http://rednationonline.ca/

[T-boy]

Possession is really a "smoke and mirrors" stat in football. It doesn't win games, doesn't get you points. But it does look excellent 'on paper'. It's a stat that everybody uses to their advantage (you have low and have low possession then "they gave the ball away too much", you win and have low possession and "you frustrated the opposition").

TFC have had 4 away games (tough away games, too) and 2 home against tough opponents. I would personally never expect an MLS away team to have high possession stats. So what can we read from this at the moment? I would say, nothing.

It's 9 points from the first 6 matches still our best start? (or close to it).

[Fort York Redcoat]

I thought this thread was from last year. We made another one? Welcome back to those just started to doubt the first time coach.

[notthesun]

Henry = Orr
Rey = Issey or Jackson
Morgan hasn't played
DeRo is in the Defoe get used to it category but even then isn't a 90 min guy

Bradley or Osorio may or may not be 100%. Fit enough to play.

Bradley & Osorio were fit enough to play... and that's about it. Not fit enough to make an impact. They only played because we had no other options.

Orr has been a nice backup at CB but he's not the aerial force that Henry is. Both Dallas goals came from crosses into the box. Who knows what happens if Henry is in there instead?

Rey does not equal Issey or Jackson, not even close. We're hurting badly without him. He can dribble his way out of trouble in midfield, but more importantly he's a threat to punish you if you don't respect him. When he gets the ball, defenders back off and try to occupy space. When Issey or Jackson get the ball they close in. That makes a huge difference in our ability to counter attack properly.

I think I've seen you post along these lines already. You're suggesting all our injuries don't actually make a difference in our ability to perform? I have to confirm that's what you're saying because really, it's a ridiculous suggestion.

The depleted bench matters too. We already have crappy squad depth in the first place. I don't understand the people complaining about Nelsen's substitutions. He's got nothing on the bench. The reason Wiedeman comes on in the 90th minute rather than the 75th is because he can't do jack shit, so Nelsen wants to get the most of out people who can instead. The one game we've been able to get a non-useless striker on the bench (DeRo) due to other guys being healthy was against D.C., and he came on very early in that game. You can bet if Dike were healthy he or DeRo would be coming on a lot earlier than Wiedeman or Hamilton has been. Christ, I've literally seen people wondering why Hamilton isn't getting in games earlier. Right, because 18 year old, no-professional-minutes, can't-get-a-USL-loan Jordan Hamilton is going to come on and make a real difference (note: I'm not knocking him, he's just not ready).

[Fort York Redcoat]

Seems to me he has learned nothing from past seasons. Last night was yet another game where the other team appeared more organized, and demonstrated far more creativity on offence. Despite the rotten officiating, TFC did not play well at either end, and giving up 16 corners was pathetic.

Wut? :noidea:

[starter]

So its not true if it doesn't fit your theory?
...


Re: possession

Bradley now is the part of the system, he is a smart guy, he knows what to say at this time.

Even Serouix, who IMO was the coolest TFC player with the ball, recently brought up the same questions on the air.


Please stay away from molenshtain (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/member.php?42155-molenshtain), it is a splash zone. :-)

[T-boy]

Another stat that's being thrown around is the "giving up 16 corners". Well, its not 16 GOALS! It's corners! And if you are organised, corners don't lead to anything. Conceding corners usually indicates that you are closing down the attackers quickly and stopping direct shots on goal. Not allowing them space to have a shot on target. Glass half full/half empty really.

[TorontoGooner]

Quoting statistics is just a lazy way of analyzing football. They seldom prove anything.

And I actually can't believe fans are questioning Nelsen's job. Toronto fans are like a spoilt only child. They want the train set for Christmas, and they cry christmas day because its not a real train.

We got our DP's, we shuffled players around, and after playing some of the best teams in the League we got 9 points after 6 games. If you are actually doubting Nelsen at this point you may as well go and yell at the sky for not being high enough. At this point in, what did people really want or expect? Don't give me "attractive football" answer either, you want that, go watch La Liga. Its MLS.

For the past years I thought it was the club that made it difficult to support them, but I actually think it could be some of our fans

[TorontoGooner]

Possession is really a "smoke and mirrors" stat in football. It doesn't win games, doesn't get you points. But it does look excellent 'on paper'. It's a stat that everybody uses to their advantage (you have low and have low possession then "they gave the ball away too much", you win and have low possession and "you frustrated the opposition").

TFC have had 4 away games (tough away games, too) and 2 home against tough opponents. I would personally never expect an MLS away team to have high possession stats. So what can we read from this at the moment? I would say, nothing.

It's 9 points from the first 6 matches still our best start? (or close to it).

The possession stat is banded around by those that don't understand the game. They just like the shiny graphics at half time that force feed them knowledge.

[brad]

That describes not just TFC but every MLS squad. The squads may have their Bradleys or Henrys, but the lesser players that fill out each squad just aren't that good. TFC's filler just needs to be as good as the average MLS squad's filler, not suddenly be EPL-quality players.

True, but after 3 games (I think) we had the lowest pass completion in the league. I haven't seen the stat since - but that was worrying since it measured us against other teams in the league.

[molenshtain]

Christ, I've literally seen people wondering why Hamilton isn't getting in games earlier. Right, because 18 year old, no-professional-minutes, can't-get-a-USL-loan Jordan Hamilton is going to come on and make a real difference (note: I'm not knocking him, he's just not ready).

I agree with everything you;ve said except this bit. We're paying Hamilton like he is one of the best 18's in the league and the people in the club and the people at CNMNT clearly think He's one of the best Prospects we've put out. He's gotta be better than weideman. At least Hamilton would offer some pace and flair on the ball. I get what weideman does, he's like a homeless man's Dirk Kuyt. I'd prefer to see what Hamilton could bring to a game if we we'e trailing.

And It's not as if he can't actually get a loan. He was supposed to be the fourth player we sent to Wilmington but we kept him out of necessity after Dike's injury.

[adam1001]

Quoting statistics is just a lazy way of analyzing football. They seldom prove anything.

And I actually can't believe fans are questioning Nelsen's job. Toronto fans are like a spoilt only child. They want the train set for Christmas, and they cry christmas day because its not a real train.

We got our DP's, we shuffled players around, and after playing some of the best teams in the League we got 9 points after 6 games. If you are actually doubting Nelsen at this point you may as well go and yell at the sky for not being high enough. At this point in, what did people really want or expect? Don't give me "attractive football" answer either, you want that, go watch La Liga. Its MLS.

For the past years I thought it was the club that made it difficult to support them, but I actually think it could be some of our fans

Do you watch other MLS games? I don't buy the argument that there is no attractive football in this league. The few times I've watched teams like Seattle, RSL, hell even Vancouver play, I've been stunned at the difference in quality (Seattle's second half in Dallas last week was amazing). The buzzword for our games seems to be "scrappy," and that we "grind out" results. For a team with of our quality, it shouldn't be the case that we're grinding out results week in week out.

[TorontoGooner]

Do you watch other MLS games? I don't buy the argument that there is no attractive football in this league. The few times I've watched teams like Seattle, RSL, hell even Vancouver play, I've been stunned at the difference in quality (Seattle's second half in Dallas last week was amazing). The buzzword for our games seems to be "scrappy," and that we "grind out" results. For a team with of our quality, it shouldn't be the case that we're grinding out results week in week out.

We wanted a winning team, and we have the makings of one here. Grinding out results is exactly what we need to do, until we are established enough with this squad to be bold enough to play with flair. Substance over aesthetics. Again (yet again!), I'll say it; ROME WAS NOT BUILT IN A DAY

The problem football fans have here is that they watch the Premier League in the morning, then immediately assume that's exactly what they'll get at an MLS game. There's a sense entitlement attached to it.

Vancouver play with flair, and they've pretty much had the same start as us. There's a great quote from the greatest Liverpool manager ever: "You want entertainment? go to the circus"

[Canary10]

We wanted a winning team, and we have the makings of one here. Grinding out results is exactly what we need to do, until we are established enough with this squad to be bold enough to play with flair. Substance over aesthetics. Again (yet again!), I'll say it; ROME WAS NOT BUILT IN A DAY

The problem football fans have here is that they watch the Premier League in the morning, then immediately assume that's exactly what they'll get at an MLS game. There's a sense entitlement attached to it.

Vancouver play with flair, and they've pretty much had the same start as us. There's a great quote from the greatest Liverpool manager ever: "You want entertainment? go to the circus"

Well said. Led by Bradley and Caldwell, etc, this is the first time we've had enough steel in the team to win those kind of grind it out matches. That's how you win regularly in MLS. We'll do fine.

[Cashcleaner]

Possession is really a "smoke and mirrors" stat in football. It doesn't win games, doesn't get you points. But it does look excellent 'on paper'. It's a stat that everybody uses to their advantage (you have low and have low possession then "they gave the ball away too much", you win and have low possession and "you frustrated the opposition").

TFC have had 4 away games (tough away games, too) and 2 home against tough opponents. I would personally never expect an MLS away team to have high possession stats. So what can we read from this at the moment? I would say, nothing.

It's 9 points from the first 6 matches still our best start? (or close to it).

Despite anything people can say about possession, the simple fact remains that there are very few negatives to having control of the ball. It's not something any team will just shrug their shoulders at and say; "M'eh. We can take it or leave it. No big deal". When are numbers are hovering around 30% to 40% in some games, I don't think people are out of line to mention it.

Toronto FC doesn't operate in a vacuum. Other teams analyze how we play and work to exploit our weaknesses and deny us our strengths. If the case truly was that low possession is not a priority for us, that doesn't negate the fact that there are likely a few MLS coaching staffs right now brainstorming over how use that attitude against us.

BUT the fact that we can have such low possession and still win is a very interesting point to consider.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Do you watch other MLS games? I don't buy the argument that there is no attractive football in this league. The few times I've watched teams like Seattle, RSL, hell even Vancouver play, I've been stunned at the difference in quality (Seattle's second half in Dallas last week was amazing). The buzzword for our games seems to be "scrappy," and that we "grind out" results. For a team with of our quality, it shouldn't be the case that we're grinding out results week in week out.

No one said that there is no attractive football in this league.

A team with our quality has shown they are "scrappy" since they won with little possession and are now struggling with key injuries.

You're stunned. Stay tuned. It'll become more clear in weeks to come.

[gate7]

the question is.....what does Leiweke think......dont matter what we think.

[TorontoGooner]

the question is.....what does Leiweke think......dont matter what we think.

He cares about where we are at the end of the year. Not 6 weeks in

[RedsYNWA]

Simple math people...no playoffs = nelson gone

ty

[ag futbol]

It's relative. I'm not concerned about losing on possession by 5-10%, losing by 15%+ is not typically a good thing. That is simply a result of playing too direct, lobbying wasteful low percentage passes at strikers while bypassing our midfield, and lacking the composure to play out of pressure.

We are getting drilled back so far our ability to counter attack is being impeded. This team has to get more tactically savvy and realize sometimes the direct play or counter attack simply isn't on.

This is not BS like trying to be Barcalona or even RSL, it's simply adopting to the modern tenants of the game, which it's pretty unanaimous that You don't have to win possession necessarily, but showing no regard for it whatsoever bodes terribly.

[ExiledRed]

D
BUT the fact that we can have such low possession and still win is a very interesting point to consider.

It means the other team has a crappy offence, a bit like ours was with Chad Barrett.

People forget, you only play a game that surrenders possession, when you think you're up against superior opposition.

Trane will start cursing me for this, but the defensive (wait and see if they slip up and then pounce) approach, reeks of an inferior mindset.

What happens when two teams who are stuck on an exclusively counterattacking strategy play each other?

The team with the balls is likely the team on the ball.

[starter]

It's relative. I'm not concerned about losing on possession by 5-10%, losing by 15%+ is not typically a good thing. That is simply a result of playing too direct, lobbying wasteful low percentage passes at strikers while bypassing our midfield, and lacking the composure to play out of pressure.

We are getting drilled back so far our ability to counter attack is being impeded. This team has to get more tactically savvy and realize sometimes the direct play or counter attack simply isn't on.

This is not BS like trying to be Barcalona or even RSL, it's simply adopting to the modern tenants of the game, which it's pretty unanaimous that You don't have to win possession necessarily, but showing no regard for it whatsoever bodes terribly.
Good post, calling what they do passes is way too generous.
Bradley and to lesser extent Bekker/Ososrio are capable of distributing, but you have to work the ball to them first. Team just does not do enough to make this happen.
Also, there is no harm trying to play like RSL, or Barcelona, not in my book. I am willing to give up some of that grinding to see that. :)

[ginkster88]

I hear a Mr. Moyes may be available.

[TorontoGooner]

Good post, calling what they do passes is way too generous.
Bradley and to lesser extent Bekker/Ososrio are capable of distributing, but you have to work the ball to them first. Team just does not do enough to make this happen.
Also, there is no harm trying to play like RSL, or Barcelona, not in my book. I am willing to give up some of that grinding to see that. :)

Starter, you can't put lipstick on a pig. If you don't have the players to play like Barcelona, simply put, you don't. Defoe, Bradley and Gilberto do not conform to that style of play. They are fast, on the break, players who prefer the ball played in front of them than to the side. I'd never teach kids to play like Barca because it's "pretty". Play like Bayern, play like Real. Hold them off, wait, be defensively strong, then hit them on the counter.

At the very root of this thread is the ongoing theme that people want free flowing, tika taka football. But I'd put money on it that if we had the same amount of points playing that way, people would be wailing that there's not enough graft or ability to grind out results. We have a strong core of players here, and a manager that knows them and will get the best out of them. We have to have faith, and for the love of all that's holy, some patience. Its six games. This thread has made me unbelievably angry but at least has proven what I've thought all long. Some people in the supporters groups will never be happy.

[MightyDM]

Well said.

Starter, you can't put lipstick on a pig. If you don't have the players to play like Barcelona, simply put, you don't. Defoe, Bradley and Gilberto do not conform to that style of play. They are fast, on the break, players who prefer the ball played in front of them than to the side. I'd never teach kids to play like Barca because it's "pretty". Play like Bayern, play like Real. Hold them off, wait, be defensively strong, then hit them on the counter.

At the very root of this thread is the ongoing theme that people want free flowing, tika taka football. But I'd put money on it that if we had the same amount of points playing that way, people would be wailing that there's not enough graft or ability to grind out results. We have a strong core of players here, and a manager that knows them and will get the best out of them. We have to have faith, and for the love of all that's holy, some patience. Its six games. This thread has made me unbelievably angry but at least has proven what I've thought all long. Some people in the supporters groups will never be happy.

[starter]

Starter, you can't put lipstick on a pig. If you don't have the players to play like Barcelona, simply put, you don't. Defoe, Bradley and Gilberto do not conform to that style of play. They are fast, on the break, players who prefer the ball played in front of them than to the side. I'd never teach kids to play like Barca because it's "pretty". Play like Bayern, play like Real. Hold them off, wait, be defensively strong, then hit them on the counter.

At the very root of this thread is the ongoing theme that people want free flowing, tika taka football. But I'd put money on it that if we had the same amount of points playing that way, people would be wailing that there's not enough graft or ability to grind out results. We have a strong core of players here, and a manager that knows them and will get the best out of them. We have to have faith, and for the love of all that's holy, some patience. Its six games. This thread has made me unbelievably angry but at least has proven what I've thought all long. Some people in the supporters groups will never be happy.

I think we have got the best roster we have ever had, we should give them some credit.
There is a reason it is called a beautiful game.

[starter]

I hear a Mr. Moyes may be available.
I am more of Laudrup fan. :)

[Red4ever]

Another beauty thread in the public section. Any time I fear we may, in fact, not like look a big enough idiots, we get a gem like this one.

While we're at it, we should fire Lieweke, 6 games and still no roof.

[ExiledRed]

I hear a Mr. Moyes may be available.

Moyes would be exactly like John Carver. We'd see mediocre talent 'youth' run out in front of us every week playing a long ball game 'for the future', we would see Bradley playing in every position but the one he's best at and Defoe would be lone striker for the one in four games he actually plays.

[speckles]

It is all Ryans fault....let me think of the reasons... why are the guys not training down under in Australia..where summer is in full flight..on pristine grass... would save on the injury count...they could fly back ever weekend..they had a 100 million budget for the players...this should have been factored into the budget... Also if Bez and Ryan were real team players then why were they not on the substitute bench this weekend past..seriously two goal keepers and we had Ryan could be in the defense regardless of this glass knees...simply no excuse...and why is Defoe on holiday..who put that in his contract....it simply unacceptable....

Now every silly rational has been tabled can we get off the pet agenda:-)

[prizby]

Your idea of 'getting tactics right' is scoring a lucky goal off a mistake or counter, and bunkering for 70 minutes hoping that the other team doesn't score? Giving up a record breaking number of corners because of a complete ineptitude in controlling the ball? Or waiting until the 90th minute to sub in a striker when we are down 1-0?

tactics right in terms of preparation for the game and using their strengths while minimizing opposing teams best players (ie. Dempsey; ie. EJ; ie. Higuain)

and what do you mean by lucky break? maybe the one against DCU off a bad clearance, but the rest have been created by the way TFC play


^ how was the line up against Dallas sub par? (Defoe aside)

Normally there'd be multiple weapons off the bench; ie. Dike, DeRo, Issey, Bekker; instead we we were missing 3 starters and had no real attacking quality to change the pace once we went down...i'd also venture a guess in what seemed to pretty noticeable-Bradley and Oso were certainly not too close to 100%




I want to enjoy beautiful game here and now. As professionals, I believe our current squad has more in them than Nelsen can realize


you want to change managers when the best XI has only had 90 minutes together...when are they suppose to get use to each other's style of play?



Also, there is no harm trying to play like RSL, or Barcelona, not in my book. I am willing to give up some of that grinding to see that. http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/images/smilies/smile.png

maybe you weren't watching in 2011 and 2012..we tried this...remember 0-9...you want that?

[mcolvy]

Lets pull what the Leafs have, hire a ton of expensive management, since there is no cap there.

Give Nelsen a second hand man who is an offensive, fluid-minded attacking mind and let him work in some creativity with the group,

lets wait till Caleb Porter burns and then peel him away.

[ExiledRed]

Lets pull what the Leafs have, hire a ton of expensive management, since there is no cap there.

Give Nelsen a second hand man who is an offensive, fluid-minded attacking mind and let him work in some creativity with the group,

lets wait till Caleb Porter burns and then peel him away.

The problem with expensive management is that it has to come from within MLS, and theres not much going round.
Coaches from anywhere else, Mourinho, Benitez, Ancelotti etc.... would absolutely suck at this league.

[Yohan]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/video/2014/03/21/head-coaches-who-played-mls-kyle-beckerman-takes-quiz

relevant to this thread

[69Chevy396]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/video/2014/03/21/head-coaches-who-played-mls-kyle-beckerman-takes-quiz

relevant to this thread
Just got back to TO and read the interesting posts here. Notice, I never called for Nelsen's firing, just asked the simple question relating to his qualifications etc. I have watched every game this season and frankly don't like what I see despite the ok record. It has the appearance of a team coached by a defender. I would prefer to see less hoof ball, more possession by the midfield, and better use of the bench. Some here deride this thread celebrating a playoff bound team led by Nelsen. This is the kind of loser mentality embraced in Toronto. The Leafs were once playoff bound this year. And yes, I do want to be entertained. I could care less if Nelsen builds a team of defenders in his like image who grind it out every game. I care more about the other end of the pitch, the one where other teams grind it out to prevent our team from scoring. We have the talent now, use it.

[Pookie]

Moyes would be exactly like John Carver. We'd see mediocre talent 'youth' run out in front of us every week playing a long ball game 'for the future', we would see Bradley playing in every position but the one he's best at and Defoe would be lone striker for the one in four games he actually plays.

I enjoyed that.

Interesting fact. John Carver's 2008 Reds were off to a better start (3-2-1) through 6. After 10 they were (5-3-2).

[OgtheDim]

Just got back to TO and read the interesting posts here. Notice, I never called for Nelsen's firing......

Oh come on.....

You stated

Starting to resemble previous years. I know you guys love Nelsen, but his coaching is abysmal....

in the game thread.


You want him out.


Deal with being called out for being unrealistic.

[Oldtimer]

I enjoyed that.

Interesting fact. John Carver's 2008 Reds were off to a better start (3-2-1) through 6. After 10 they were (5-3-2).

Early season means zip. Let's see where we are later in the season.

[Pookie]

^ very true. Carver's Reds stumbled afterwards and missed the playoffs.

[Pookie]

Normally there'd be multiple weapons off the bench; ie. Dike, DeRo, Issey, Bekker; instead we we were missing 3 starters and had no real attacking quality to change the pace once we went down...i'd also venture a guess in what seemed to pretty noticeable-Bradley and Oso were certainly not too close to 100%


Normally, as in the season that was injury free? I can't recall which one that was.

I mean I do recall missing players like Koevermans, Frings, Eckserley, DeRosario, Gordon, Santos, Frei, Wynne, Robinson, etc, etc at various times during past campaigns. Sometimes, they weren't even alone in the press box.

Perhaps I'm just mis-remembering.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Good post, calling what they do passes is way too generous.
Bradley and to lesser extent Bekker/Ososrio are capable of distributing, but you have to work the ball to them first. Team just does not do enough to make this happen.
Also, there is no harm trying to play like RSL, or Barcelona, not in my book. I am willing to give up some of that grinding to see that. :)

Aaron. Winter. Era.

What's changed with your level of patience?

[69Chevy396]

Oh come on.....

You stated


in the game thread.


You want him out.


Deal with being called out for being unrealistic.

I didn't want to flame people here with my personal sentiment. Sure, I would prefer to see a better, more creative oriented, offensive minded coach with some real experience at a top flight club. Who wouldn't want that. Nelsen may become a good coach one day, but right now, the team is playing in their end most games, and despite having two or three designated players on the pitch most nights, and despite having a decent set of MLS calibre midfielders playing the wing, they generate almost no offense. It is naive to think one player will change this (Defoe), particularly as he is injury prone and past his prime. I would hate to see the skeptics who feared playing with Toronto would sour Bradley on MLs after a season or two. If the job of a coach is to instill both confidence and strategy into a team, why not spend more time focussing on the offense, and allow the defenders to do their thing when needed. Last time I checked you need to score goals to win. Yes, the new defenders are good. They have to be because it is beginning to look like every MLS opposition is going to spend most of the game in our end, having tons of possession and numerous scoring opportunities. Now, if this is correct, who is responsible?

[Fort York Redcoat]

We have the talent now, use it.

The hurt talent? That talent?

This is after a 2-1 loss to the league leader. Despite some noting we grind it out we're scoring in games lost more than we have in past seasons. Yet it seems you'd prefer to see a 6-5 loss?


All these questions after game 6 of the season.


I hope we can see some consistency in lineups soon because I agree we have a good team that could be great if they come together and THE BEST of it stays healthy.

[Fort York Redcoat]

who is responsible?

The players moving it forward and the forwards to keep the ball. Are we trying to say that this doesn't enter Nelsen's strategy?

[pdogg]

This is after a 2-1 loss to the league leader. Despite some noting we grind it out we're scoring in games lost more than we have in past seasons. Yet it seems you'd prefer to see a 6-5 loss?
.

I remember the days when we used to have 3+ goals scored on us. Was not pretty.

[starter]

Aaron. Winter. Era.

What's changed with your level of patience?


AW? There was time, through the end of his first season, CL fixtures, when this board was excited with his work.

I am personally for structure, frameworks, systems that when bought in, will deliver certain standards.

Nelsen has all the ammo AW/BDK did not have, but he is far behind the curve as a coach, and IMO he does not seem to be catching up.

[starter]

...
maybe you weren't watching in 2011 and 2012..we tried this...remember 0-9...you want that?

Is that a quote from the 'Animal Farm'? :-)

I see and respect your passion, but may be we are ( and will be ) valuing somewhat different aspects of the game?

I am at the time where quality becomes more important then quantity.

[prizby]

Normally, as in the season that was injury free? I can't recall which one that was.

I mean I do recall missing players like Koevermans, Frings, Eckserley, DeRosario, Gordon, Santos, Frei, Wynne, Robinson, etc, etc at various times during past campaigns. Sometimes, they weren't even alone in the press box.

Perhaps I'm just mis-remembering.

look at the average team in MLS; tell me, do they have 8 guys on the injured list all at once?

[prizby]

Is that a quote from the 'Animal Farm'? :-)

I see and respect your passion, but may be we are ( and will be ) valuing somewhat different aspects of the game?

I am at the time where quality becomes more important then quantity.

afraid i don't know what Animal Farm is...

well maybe TFC isn't the team for you? or maybe MLS isn't the league for you...if you want to see a replication of some of the best teams in the world and that is the standard you need, you won't be finding it here in MLS now or anytime soon

a lot of people are expecting things to change over night and until people start accepting that it won't happen over night and that it takes time to make things happen as a team..

I see a lot of talk about RSL, but no one seems to realize the RSL team we lost to had 10 out of 11 starters who had been with the team since 2010, 7 of those who had been on the field in the MLS Cup Final the year before, which they won and 5 of those who had been on the team since 2007, where they sucked and were awful and didn't play with much flair, couldn't put passes together; things didn't happen for them overnight, in fact they weren't really clicking until halfway through the 2009 season and if tfc hadn't lost to dead last NYRB in the last game of the year (5-0 no less), than RSL wouldn't have even made the playoffs

[Fort York Redcoat]

AW? There was time, through the end of his first season, CL fixtures, when this board was excited with his work.

I am personally for structure, frameworks, systems that when bought in, will deliver certain standards.

Nelsen has all the ammo AW/BDK did not have, but he is far behind the curve as a coach, and IMO he does not seem to be catching up.

Beside the point. The point is that people didn't give him time and people won't give a less experienced coach more time to play losing pretty football.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Is that a quote from the 'Animal Farm'? :-)

I see and respect your passion, but may be we are ( and will be ) valuing somewhat different aspects of the game?

I am at the time where quality becomes more important then quantity.

Some quotes are more equal than others.g:D


http://share.nanjing-school.com/englisha/files/2013/03/animal_farm_poster-2isu30q.jpg

[pdogg]

I see a lot of talk about RSL, but no one seems to realize the RSL team we lost to had 10 out of 11 starters who had been with the team since 2010, 7 of those who had been on the field in the MLS Cup Final the year before, which they won and 5 of those who had been on the team since 2007, where they sucked and were awful and didn't play with much flair, couldn't put passes together; things didn't happen for them overnight, in fact they weren't really clicking until halfway through the 2009 season and if tfc hadn't lost to dead last NYRB in the last game of the year (5-0 no less), than RSL wouldn't have even made the playoffs

Yes to all above. I remember enjoying the upcoming games against RSL, San Jose and NYRB. Now - not so much. That's what a slow build does for a team, instead of quick massive overhauls.


Pop Quiz - Who are the top 10 active players on our team, ranked by appearances (all competitions - as of start of 2014)?

Morgan - 89
DeRo - 75
Henry - 68
Hall - 62
Weidemen - 35
Bendik - 33
Osorio - 30
Caldwell - 23
Richter - 15
Agboss - 13

There's your core players from last year.

- Only Henry, Osorio and Caldwell are starters this year (DeRo is a sub, forced into starting).
- Only four players have played more than one full season worth of games, 3 of them are out with injuries, the other one is benched.
- One of them hasn't been with our team for a few seasons and is the oldest player on our team

[Pookie]

look at the average team in MLS; tell me, do they have 8 guys on the injured list all at once?

In the "make your bed and lie in it category", how many teams traded/signed players with:

a) a season of injuries in 2013 including a hamstring issue that currently has them sidelined?
b) coming off a rehab of an ACL? (6 months - injury in February)
c) coming off rehab of an MCL? (12 weeks - injury in September)

There's 3 right there.

[Kaz]

I'm just going to Copy and Paste this.

There are a number of factors to one of our best starts to a season ever. Injuries is one of them, and Nelsen maybe another

In the last 8 seasons we have only come out of the first 6 games with more then a PPG of 1, 3 times. 2008 1.67, 2009 1.34 and this year 1.5

In 2008 we finished the first 10 games with a PPG of 1.7 ended the season at 1.16 in last place in the East and 13/14 in the league.

In 2009 we finished the first 10 games with a PPG of 1.3 ended the season at 1.30 in 5th place in the East and 12/15 in the league.

In our first 7 season we averaged at least 1 PPG over the first 10 games in all but 2 seasons (the last two) Yet only finished over a 1 PPG average 3 times.

This is a season long marathon, not a sprint.

Right now we are at 1.5 PPG not our best start just our 2nd best. However there are three significant factors to this number not being higher.

1) Injuries - we've had a crap load of them, Defoe is just one add Dike in and it's an issue... Dike's history should have been a warning sign, Urrti was an issue due to the cap space issue in the past, this is likely our first season since MO we haven't been screwed by the cap, I figured it will be at least another if not 2 more years to get our depth worked out because of that.

2) Schedule - 5 of our 6 games have been against the 5 strongest starting clubs in the league.

3) New players - Gilberto for example has way too much pressure on him because he doesn't have back up. DeRo has been starting and he should be a super sub. Weids is paid way too much for his roll and performance.

The reality of all of this is yes it means we have had two loses that should have been ties or wins, we should be looking at our strongest start ever, instead we are looking at our second strongest.

If we maintain a Win then a loss all season that is 51 points and a play off spot.

Is Nelsen part of it. Maybe.. the reality is we are still having one of our best season starts ever despite all the issues.

Lets see how we do next week. or at least lets see where we are at 10 games, and after the world cup, before we start lighting those torches.

[brad]

Moyes would be exactly like John Carver. We'd see mediocre talent 'youth' run out in front of us every week playing a long ball game 'for the future', we would see Bradley playing in every position but the one he's best at and Defoe would be lone striker for the one in four games he actually plays.

He wouldn't play the long ball. He'd drive to byline and launch 80+ crosses to a short Defoe while he is being marked by 6+ft defenders. So he'd look like Winter when he played Plata as a CF.:)

He'd likely alienate Dichio and drive him out of the club as well.

[starter]

afraid i don't know what Animal Farm is...
well maybe TFC isn't the team for you? or maybe MLS isn't the league for you...if you want to see a replication of some of the best teams in the world and that is the standard you need, you won't be finding it here in MLS now or anytime soon
...


Not with that attitude :)

[Leedsoronto]

Could be worse, Moyes may want a job abroad, let's stick with the devil we know ehh

[starter]

Some quotes are more equal than others.g:D


http://share.nanjing-school.com/englisha/files/2013/03/animal_farm_poster-2isu30q.jpg

Not exactly the point I was making, but the good thing is we all learned something today.

[molenshtain]

It means the other team has a crappy offence, a bit like ours was with Chad Barrett.

People forget, you only play a game that surrenders possession, when you think you're up against superior opposition.

Trane will start cursing me for this, but the defensive (wait and see if they slip up and then pounce) approach, reeks of an inferior mindset.

No. Wrong. so wrong. I'm sorry but I don't understand why sooooooo many people here seem to think this. Atletico are about to win their first title in however long by playing ruthlessly defensive, efficient counter-attacking football. Mourinho has made his entire career on the back of very defensive, very narrow-minded counter-attacking football. Ferguson's best united team (07-09) played brilliant counter-attacking football. Helenio Herrera won umpteen trophies with inter with an unbelievably defensive tactic. All of those teams would have been seen as the bigger club in 99% of their games. Anyway, that list goes on.

Putting an emphasis on defense first does not mean you are taking on an inferior mindset. It means you put more emphasis on defense. I'm not particularly happy with how we're passing the ball right now either but that doesn't mean that the tactic is wrong, it mean's the execution is the problem. And that problem stems from not having played together very much. Patience people. Patience.

[OgtheDim]

My favourite quote from the Athletico-Chelsea build up this week was the one where an Athletico player was asked what they would do if Chelsea just sat back and waited for Athletico to come onto them.

"We'll just give them the ball back then."

[ExiledRed]

No. Wrong. so wrong. I'm sorry but I don't understand why sooooooo many people here seem to think this. Atletico are about to win their first title in however long by playing ruthlessly defensive, efficient counter-attacking football. Mourinho has made his entire career on the back of very defensive, very narrow-minded counter-attacking football. Ferguson's best united team (07-09) played brilliant counter-attacking football. Helenio Herrera won umpteen trophies with inter with an unbelievably defensive tactic. All of those teams would have been seen as the bigger club in 99% of their games. Anyway, that list goes on.

Putting an emphasis on defense first does not mean you are taking on an inferior mindset. It means you put more emphasis on defense. I'm not particularly happy with how we're passing the ball right now either but that doesn't mean that the tactic is wrong, it mean's the execution is the problem. And that problem stems from not having played together very much. Patience people. Patience.

I never said you couldnt win with a counterattacking philosophy. I dont think I used the word counterattacking at all actually.

Im sure we'll get a masterclass this afternoon when Chelsea and Atletico meet.

Funnily enough I saw the Atletico v Barca game, and while Barcelona did have most of the possession, they didn't really have it long for any particular length of time. Atletico would brutally disposess them every time they had the ball and piled on so much pressure that Barca just couldnt play their game. I find it relevant that only one goal was scored, although to be fair, Atletico could have had more. This style of play, or even Chelsea's, isnt what we do, or what we seem to be trying to do, and I'd be fine with that if we werent nervously surrendering the ball every time we get it, regardless.

This is a personal thing, but I've always found Mourinho's squads to play negative, reactive football without the confidence to go balls out. Maybe a less cautious approach against teams like Sunderland would have put the title in their hands right now, who knows? We will see what happens on Sunday when faced with an open attacking style of play that prioritises scoring more than not conceding.

At Elite level, faced with elite opposition that may very well be technically superior, I will concede counterattacking can be very succesful. At our level its dull as fuck and wont work while the leagues defenders are of a much lesser quality than the leagues forwards.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'm not particularly happy with how we're passing the ball right now either but that doesn't mean that the tactic is wrong, it mean's the execution is the problem. And that problem stems from not having played together very much. Patience people. Patience.

So opposite tactic but same issue as with the Winter era. With the same request I'm in agreement with. Time.

[molenshtain]

I never said you couldnt win with a counterattacking philosophy. I dont think I used the word counterattacking at all actually.

Im sure we'll get a masterclass this afternoon when Chelsea and Atletico meet.

Funnily enough I saw the Atletico v Barca game, and while Barcelona did have most of the possession, they didn't really have it long for any particular length of time. Atletico would brutally disposess them every time they had the ball and piled on so much pressure that Barca just couldnt play their game. I find it relevant that only one goal was scored, although to be fair, Atletico could have had more. This style of play, or even Chelsea's, isnt what we do, or what we seem to be trying to do, and I'd be fine with that if we werent nervously surrendering the ball every time we get it, regardless.

This is a personal thing, but I've always found Mourinho's squads to play negative, reactive football without the confidence to go balls out. Maybe a less cautious approach against teams like Sunderland would have put the title in their hands right now, who knows? We will see what happens on Sunday when faced with an open attacking style of play that prioritises scoring more than not conceding.

At Elite level, faced with elite opposition that may very well be technically superior, I will concede counterattacking can be very succesful. At our level its dull as fuck and wont work while the leagues defenders are of a much lesser quality than the leagues forwards.

But defense first essentially means counter-attacking in football. There's not really any other way to attack otherwise. The whole Idea behind playing defense first in football is to draw as many opposing players forward and out of position as possible and then play it through very quickly to those open spaces once you've won the ball. This is what I see Nelsen trying to do but hasn't completely caught on yet because our front six haven't had enough time together to understand each others tendencies.

I honestly don't at all see how the attacking players in this league are better than the defenders. In fact I'd say the opposite. This league has a lower than average amount of goals per game, and It's quite obvious why that is so when you watch: fine build up play and technical ability but very, very few players are consistently capable of playing the final killer ball. that's why good possession team's are so few and far between here.

Mourinho's teams definitely play very ugly, reactive football. and you know what? they would have won the title this season if they didn't have shit defenders. He's won two champions league's by sitting 11 players in his own box.

Chelsea Vs. Atletico is going to be fucking ugly. But one of them is going through to the final. So clearly there doing something right.

[ExiledRed]

Putting an emphasis on defense first does not mean you are taking on an inferior mindset. It means you put more emphasis on defense. I'm not particularly happy with how we're passing the ball right now either but that doesn't mean that the tactic is wrong, it mean's the execution is the problem. And that problem stems from not having played together very much. Patience people. Patience.

I agree that the execution is poor. I just feel that we've been down this road before, and usually its come with a negative mindset. We gave up something like 18 corners in the last game, because we werent keeping the ball. This isnt something that can be fixed over a few games, our system has been exposed, challenged and broken.

That we only conceded one from a corner is a testament to our defenders, that we conceded that many corners is a red flag on the entire system as it relates to our squad.

[Yohan]

I never said you couldnt win with a counterattacking philosophy. I dont think I used the word counterattacking at all actually.

Im sure we'll get a masterclass this afternoon when Chelsea and Atletico meet.

Funnily enough I saw the Atletico v Barca game, and while Barcelona did have most of the possession, they didn't really have it long for any particular length of time. Atletico would brutally disposess them every time they had the ball and piled on so much pressure that Barca just couldnt play their game. I find it relevant that only one goal was scored, although to be fair, Atletico could have had more. This style of play, or even Chelsea's, isnt what we do, or what we seem to be trying to do, and I'd be fine with that if we werent nervously surrendering the ball every time we get it, regardless.

This is a personal thing, but I've always found Mourinho's squads to play negative, reactive football without the confidence to go balls out. Maybe a less cautious approach against teams like Sunderland would have put the title in their hands right now, who knows? We will see what happens on Sunday when faced with an open attacking style of play that prioritises scoring more than not conceding.

At Elite level, faced with elite opposition that may very well be technically superior, I will concede counterattacking can be very succesful. At our level its dull as fuck and wont work while the leagues defenders are of a much lesser quality than the leagues forwards.
in order to play a possession based soccer, you need defenders that are technically adept, esp first touch and composure under pressure and be able to cycle the ball with ease. most MLS players can't do this.

while it's still early in the season, Portland is having hard time because their defenders aren't good enough with the ball and fall prey to high pressure. the reality is, MLS teams skim on defence and make do most of the time. Porter did try to rectify this and brought in Paparatto who is a veteran of Argentina 1st div, but Paparatto haven't been able to adapt to high pressure game of MLS yet.

RSL gets around this by having a back 4 that has played together for a long time, and using a ball playing DM in Dirty Hippy that masks a lot of inadequacies of RSL defenders. I don't find RSL defenders any more technically better than most MLS defenders (I can't think of 1 MLS defender that is good with ball at their feet). RSL can play possession based soccer because Dirty Hippy is such a fantastic passer of the ball that the ball is cycled quickly to midfield once RSL wins possession in defence.

hence why high pressure, counterattacking soccer is prevalent in MLS. and winning is the ultimate entertainment, regardless of what brand of soccer you play.

[JavierMartini]

honestly? no, prob not. He is here now though.

[JavierMartini]

in order to play a possession based soccer, you need defenders that are technically adept, esp first touch and composure under pressure and be able to cycle the ball with ease. most MLS players can't do this.

Adrian serioux could g:D

[ExiledRed]

But defense first essentially means counter-attacking in football. There's not really any other way to attack otherwise. The whole Idea behind playing defense first in football is to draw as many opposing players forward and out of position as possible and then play it through very quickly to those open spaces once you've won the ball. This is what I see Nelsen trying to do but hasn't completely caught on yet because our front six haven't had enough time together to understand each others tendencies.

I honestly don't at all see how the attacking players in this league are better than the defenders. In fact I'd say the opposite. This league has a lower than average amount of goals per game, and It's quite obvious why that is so when you watch: fine build up play and technical ability but very, very few players are consistently capable of playing the final killer ball. that's why good possession team's are so few and far between here.

Mourinho's teams definitely play very ugly, reactive football. and you know what? they would have won the title this season if they didn't have shit defenders. He's won two champions league's by sitting 11 players in his own box.

Chelsea Vs. Atletico is going to be fucking ugly. But one of them is going through to the final. So clearly there doing something right.

OK Chelsea's negativity is on display right now for anybody to see. You cannot tell me they've gone into this game with a belief that they are the better team, they look like they out there to try and 'squeak one in' . That is what I mean by inferior mindset. Atletico can smell blood, they're not ten men behind the ball right now like Chelsea.

For Toronto, with Bradley and Defoe, we have no reason to go into every game with the mentality that we need our opponents to make a mistake in order to win.

[brad]

Mourinho's teams definitely play very ugly, reactive football. and you know what? they would have won the title this season if they didn't have shit defenders. He's won two champions league's by sitting 11 players in his own box.


Off tangent - but he has the best defense in the league. It's the fact that he has garbage up front that has hurt him. If he had brought in quality up top they would have the league won already.

[ExiledRed]

Off tangent - but he has the best defense in the league. It's the fact that he has garbage up front that has hurt him. If he had brought in quality up top they would have the league won already.

Compare Torres as a striker for Liverpool to Torres as a striker for Chelsea.

The difference is the negative style of play that does not allow a brilliant striker like Torres to thrive.

Is Defoe going to be maximised by the counterattacking defensive game or is he going to be hamstrung? (pun intended)

[RoyalRed]

Off tangent - but he has the best defense in the league. It's the fact that he has garbage up front that has hurt him. If he had brought in quality up top they would have the league won already.

Point to brad, molesthein's just flat out wrong. I'm diehard Chels and have been for a long time, and the one thing you cannot fault in form, formation and game-in, game-out execution, is this team's defensive play. The garbage up top, indeed, is the serious problem. It'll get solved in the offseason, and then look the fuck out.

Back on topic, the fact that we gave away soooooo many corners (close to 20?) against Dallas was a chief reason we lost. And the way we gave them away, is, as someone else up top just said, indicative of our ineptitude defensively. Till that changes, this is going to be a slog (although a better one than in prior years, and one that might squeak us into the playoffs after all).

[molenshtain]

Off tangent - but he has the best defense in the league. It's the fact that he has garbage up front that has hurt him. If he had brought in quality up top they would have the league won already.

Sure, because he has the best team that plays defensive football. His defense that won titles was far better than what he has now. you wouldn't see, say, Carvalho and Ferreira making the types of mistakes that have plagued Luiz, the spanish fellow with the complicated name and recently Terry and Ivanovic. The team he had before had a very, very good back four and the best DM in a generation in Makalele. They conceded fifteen goals in his first season. This team has let in the most goals in first division on corners. Big difference in quality. Sure they could use a good No.1 forward, but collectively his forwards have scored 18 league goals this season, a not terrible number. You can make up the difference by scoring more or by conceding less. And despite what mourniho says to the press I'm sure he'd prefer to concede less, since he always seems more confident (and less crazy) of his teams when they know they can go out and not concede like his Porto, early Chelsea and Inter teams could.

[brad]

Here is what worries me. It's not low possession. It's the lowest possession in the league (at 39.3%) + the lowest pass completion rate in the league (at 71.4%). To me, that just screams of giving it away cheaply - not counterattacking football.

Also, interestingly enough - for a team playing counter attacking football, we have not scored on the counter yet.

Some other interesting details. For those that think we are a long ball team - we are 3rd from the bottom in overall long balls played in the league, and lowest in the league for short passes.

We also lead the league for percentage of the game played in our own half

http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/233/Tournaments/85/Seasons/4091/Stages/8358/TeamStatistics/USA-Major-League-Soccer-2014

Make of that what you will. I'm not reading anything into it until we see our first choice team out there for a period of time, and they have had time to settle.

[Canary10]

Here is what worries me. It's not low possession. It's the lowest possession in the league (at 39.3%) + the lowest pass completion rate in the league (at 71.4%). To me, that just screams of giving it away cheaply - not counterattacking football.

Also, interestingly enough - for a team playing counter attacking football, we have not scored on the counter yet.

Some other interesting details. For those that thing we are a long ball team - we are 3rd from the bottom in overall long balls played in the league, and lowest in the league for short passes.

We also lead the league for percentage of the game played in our own half

http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/233/Tournaments/85/Seasons/4091/Stages/8358/TeamStatistics/USA-Major-League-Soccer-2014

Make of that what you will. I'm not reading anything into it until we see our first choice team out there for a period of time, and they have had time to settle.

If we are really going to be a counterattacking team, we might want to do something about the pitch at BMO. It runs as slow as molasses. I don't know if it's a problem of what grass is actually there after the winter we had is cut too high, or what, but the pitch takes all the speed out of a counter.

[ExiledRed]

I think this is very relevant, everybody who is unsure about the counterattacking game should be watching Chelsea right now.

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/512/media/images/74383000/jpg/_74383269_3635d2aa-5ee7-4406-adec-8da543bbb308.jpg

Playing like this is a choice. I think its dull and ugly and indicates a lack of faith in offensive capabilities, Others think its beautiful and sophisticated and is what wins competitions.

My point is, we are bad at playing like this and counterattacking done badly results in being under fire for 90 minutes. Something like Dallas.

Is there not a better approach we can take? is it too 'low brow' to try and play an open and offensive game? Is it really unwise to try when we are so poor at the negative, defensive game?

[molenshtain]

I think this is very relevant, everybody who is unsure about the counterattacking game should be watching Chelsea right now.

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/512/media/images/74383000/jpg/_74383269_3635d2aa-5ee7-4406-adec-8da543bbb308.jpg

Playing like this is a choice. I think its dull and ugly and indicates a lack of faith in offensive capabilities, Others think its beautiful and sophisticated and is what wins competitions.

My point is, we are bad at playing like this and counterattacking done badly results in being under fire for 90 minutes. Something like Dallas.

Is there not a better approach we can take? is it too 'low brow' to try and play an open and offensive game? Is it really unwise to try when we are so poor at the negative, defensive game?

Nobody is debating that it's a choice and that it's ugly. I'm debating that It shows a lack of faith in offensive capabilities. lots of managers just find it more pragmatic is what I'm saying and, if executed properly, just like any other tactic it can be successful.

We're also evidently not poor at the negative, defensive side of things. It's won us three of our first six and kept us competitive in 5 of them. Were it not for some unlucky injuries and one of the toughest opening schedules we might have an even better record.

[Yohan]

Here is what worries me. It's not low possession. It's the lowest possession in the league (at 39.3%) + the lowest pass completion rate in the league (at 71.4%). To me, that just screams of giving it away cheaply - not counterattacking football.

Also, interestingly enough - for a team playing counter attacking football, we have not scored on the counter yet.

Some other interesting details. For those that think we are a long ball team - we are 3rd from the bottom in overall long balls played in the league, and lowest in the league for short passes.

We also lead the league for percentage of the game played in our own half

http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/233/Tournaments/85/Seasons/4091/Stages/8358/TeamStatistics/USA-Major-League-Soccer-2014

Make of that what you will. I'm not reading anything into it until we see our first choice team out there for a period of time, and they have had time to settle.
TFC defenders keep hoofing the ball because the midfield isn't making themselves available enough for a pass fast enough.

[Morlesio14]

Honestly no, nelsen isn't a great manager, he mite hav the potential but I wouldn't mind a change

[ExiledRed]

Nobody is debating that it's a choice and that it's ugly. I'm debating that It shows a lack of faith in offensive capabilities. lots of managers just find it more pragmatic is what I'm saying and, if executed properly, just like any other tactic it can be successful.

We're also evidently not poor at the negative, defensive side of things. It's won us three of our first six and kept us competitive in 5 of them. Were it not for some unlucky injuries and one of the toughest opening schedules we might have an even better record.

Actually 50% or 1.5 ppg, is the very definition of mediocrity. It may get us into the playoffs, or it may not. Will it get us deep into the playoffs? I dont think it will, especially if were the fifth spot in the conference when we get there after a gruelling season fighting for that last spot.

We are poor at the negative, defensive side of things according to GD, corners conceded, and time spent in our half.

-1 GD in 6 games is hardly the end of the world but it is not a good sign. GD is usually a great indicator of who is playing the best football.

The home opener wasn't a good win, we squeaked one goal at home against an inferior team. The loss to Colorado is what happens when you keep playing like this.

RSL was always going to be a loss so I wont factor that game. Columbus and Seattle were better, but we didnt sit back and let them do what they like in those games either. We had good periods of creativity and we harassed them offensively.

I honestly believe if we stick to this gameplan at all costs, with THIS squad, were going to suffer for it. Dallas exposed us, other teams will follow suit.

[ExiledRed]

The other thing about having a counterattacking philosophy is that you have to actually well.... counterattack

[molenshtain]

Actually 50% or 1.5 ppg, is the very definition of mediocrity. It may get us into the playoffs, or it may not. Will it get us deep into the playoffs? I dont think it will, especially if were the fifth spot in the conference when we get there after a gruelling season fighting for that last spot.

We are poor at the negative, defensive side of things according to GD, corners conceded, and time spent in our half.

-1 GD in 6 games is hardly the end of the world but it is not a good sign. GD is usually a great indicator of who is playing the best football.

The home opener wasn't a good win, we squeaked one goal at home against an inferior team. The loss to Colorado is what happens when you keep playing like this.

RSL was always going to be a loss so I wont factor that game. Columbus and Seattle were better, but we didnt sit back and let them do what they like in those games either. We had good periods of creativity and we harassed them offensively.

I honestly believe if we stick to this gameplan at all costs, with THIS squad, were going to suffer for it. Dallas exposed us, other teams will follow suit.


Right, we've been mediocre through six games with mitigating factors that have hampered our performance, all of which had nothing to do with the tactics. I don't see why people are so urgent to judge us over such a short sample size. We haven't played a home game on a good pitch yet. We haven't had our whole lineup for consecutive games yet. We've played one of the toughest schedules in the league. all of these things sort themselves out as the team plays a more varied schedule and has more time to gel.

We did exactly what we wanted to do in the Seattle, Columbus, and D.C. games. We most definitely sat back and waited for Columbus and Seattle to do what they wanted in and around the middle of the pitch, Especially in the second halves of both games. We did have good periods of creativity because we had our whole midfield and a striker who could find some space.

Colorado, in fact executed the game plan we've been using to to great effect. once they realized our midfield couldn't produce a macaroni painting in a kindergarten class they sat very deep and nicked one on the counter.

Also, the Dallas game was a statistical anomaly. we're not going to give up 18 corners a game and very few teams can game plan around that as they don't have set-piece takers as good as Michel and Diaz.

[brad]

TFC defenders keep hoofing the ball because the midfield isn't making themselves available enough for a pass fast enough.

Possibly - but it is worth noting that Caldwell was well know as a "safety first" defender when he came here.

[ExiledRed]

Right, we've been mediocre through six games with mitigating factors that have hampered our performance, all of which had nothing to do with the tactics. I don't see why people are so urgent to judge us over such a short sample size. We haven't plaid a home game on a good pitch yet. We haven't had our whole lineup for consecutive games yet. We've played one of the toughest schedules in the league. all of these things sort themselves out as the team plays a more varied schedule and have more time to gel.

This team will always have 'mitigating factors hampering its performance' everything in this quote has been said before, every season for the last seven years. I said it myself once. Right now Im not convinced, but Ill admit Im not as worried as I was under Carver, Cummins, Preki, Winter or Mariner.

The DC game was shoddy and dull and could have gone the other way. I dont buy that we did exactly what we wanted to do, we looked directionless and toothless.

As an important aside, this is definitely not the kind of thing that's going to grow the sport in this country. Ill take a win every day of the week, but if theyre all like that, I'd rather just watch the highlights, all loyalty and 'true supporter' shit aside.


Colorado, in fact executed the game plan we've been using to to great effect. once they realized our midfield couldn't produce a macaroni painting in a kindergarten class they sat very deep and nicked one on the counter.

Also very dull and boring, and we didnt even win, Im glad I missed that one at BMO and not just because we lost.


Also, the Dallas game was a statistical anomaly. we're not going to give up 18 corners a game and very few teams can game plan around that as they don't have set-piece takers as good as Michel and Diaz.

I dont believe it was an anomaly. I believe Dallas knew exactly what we were about and exposed us. They adapted to us immediately after our goal and we didnt adjust our game to compensate. this will happen more, set piece takers aside. Even against a team of Chad Barrets, were going to concede a goal to at least one corner in twenty.

[Yohan]

The DC game was shoddy and dull and could have gone the other way. I dont buy that we did exactly what we wanted to do, we looked directionless and toothless.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8gXR-Ymk54
you were bored at this game?

[molenshtain]

This team will always have 'mitigating factors hampering its performance' everything in this quote has been said before, every season for the last seven years. I said it myself once. Right now Im not convinced, but Ill admit Im not as worried as I was under Carver, Cummins, Preki, Winter or Mariner.

The DC game was shoddy and dull and could have gone the other way. I dont buy that we did exactly what we wanted to do, we looked directionless and toothless.

As an important aside, this is definitely not the kind of thing that's going to grow the sport in this country. Ill take a win every day of the week, but if theyre all like that, I'd rather just watch the highlights, all loyalty and 'true supporter' shit aside.



Also very dull and boring, and we didnt even win, Im glad I missed that one at BMO and not just because we lost.



I dont believe it was an anomaly. I believe Dallas knew exactly what we were about and exposed us. They adapted to us immediately after our goal and we didnt adjust our game to compensate. this will happen more, set piece takers aside. Even against a team of Chad Barrets, were going to concede a goal to at least one corner in twenty.


This seems to be one of those agree to disagree situations. All I can do is reiterate what I've already said: It's very early going so I wouldn't put much weight on anything other than the fact that we've won half of our games with tons of injuries and a difficult schedule. Why people are even rushing to judge Nelsen before the world cup I don't know.

[ExiledRed]

Yohan if you take all the close ups, replays and stuff out of that highlight reel you are left with three minutes out of ninety.

[ExiledRed]

This seems to be one of those agree to disagree situations. All I can do is reiterate what I've already said: It's very early going so I wouldn't put much weight on anything other than the fact that we've won half of our games with tons of injuries and a difficult schedule. Why people even rushing to judge Nelsen before the world cup I don't know.

Im just speaking out against the negative, over cautious, sneaky game.

I am NOT calling for Nelsen's head in any way, I am also a lot more optimistic about this year than I seem to be pretending.

[prizby]

Not with that attitude :)

you gotta sometimes look at the other side and be :) with what you do have...it is nice to have a local professional soccer team to call your own

[adam1001]

This seems to be one of those agree to disagree situations. All I can do is reiterate what I've already said: It's very early going so I wouldn't put much weight on anything other than the fact that we've won half of our games with tons of injuries and a difficult schedule. Why people are even rushing to judge Nelsen before the world cup I don't know.

The reason why people are questioning Nelsen is because we saw what he was capable of last season, albeit with lesser talent. I gave him a free ride last year because quite frankly, he didn't have much to work with. This year, we brought in some quality players, but we are still seeing the exact same tactical approach. I just don't think that hoofball/bunkerball is going to work for us in the long run, and it's pretty clear by now that we don't have anything else up our sleeves.

[TorontoGooner]

The fact this thread is in to 6 pages already paints a pretty pathetic picture of some of our supporters.

[TorontoGooner]

Not exactly the point I was making, but the good thing is we all learned something today.

Bit patronising eh?

[ag futbol]

To compare the way athletico or Chelsea use the counter attack to the way we use it incredibly off base. That is a model we should use, but not the model we're using by any means.

[ExiledRed]

To compare the way athletico or Chelsea use the counter attack to the way we use it incredibly off base. That is a model we should use, but not the model we're using by any means.

Well this is very true, and it also draws a parallel to comparing Winters implementation of the 4-3-3 system with that of Ajax and Barcelona.

[starter]

Adrian serioux could g:D
Do not remember Serioux giving up ball cheaply. Too bad he did not play much here.

[Red CB Toronto]

Are you the right man for the job, that is the question you can ask yourself in the mirror tomorrow? I will be interested to know your answer.

[starter]

Here is what worries me. It's not low possession. It's the lowest possession in the league (at 39.3%) + the lowest pass completion rate in the league (at 71.4%). To me, that just screams of giving it away cheaply - not counterattacking football.

Also, interestingly enough - for a team playing counter attacking football, we have not scored on the counter yet.

Some other interesting details. For those that think we are a long ball team - we are 3rd from the bottom in overall long balls played in the league, and lowest in the league for short passes.

We also lead the league for percentage of the game played in our own half

http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/233/Tournaments/85/Seasons/4091/Stages/8358/TeamStatistics/USA-Major-League-Soccer-2014

Make of that what you will. I'm not reading anything into it until we see our first choice team out there for a period of time, and they have had time to settle.

I wonder what is counted a long ball -- if it is 'completed pass' then 3rd from the bottom should be about right.

Re: stats -- we can still turn the graph upside down, and celebrate.

[Cashcleaner]

The fact this thread is in to 6 pages already paints a pretty pathetic picture of some of our supporters.

Terribly sorry to disappoint you with our various opinions and postulations - and on an internet message board of all places! Not to mention that you yourself have contributed with what, 5? 6? posts in this thread. So yeah, that's something.

All said, though, I'm sure we're all very glad you could find the time to climb down from your fucking ivory tower to humble us all with your insight. :thumbsup:

[Marc"2L"]

I think this is a fair thread because it was at least a thought, before we even started.
The issue is that he's the reason we needed to question if he could coach a "big team full of big names"
he freakin' brought two of them here (sort of).

But it's far too early for anything, far far too early.

[TorontoGooner]

Terribly sorry to disappoint you with our various opinions and postulations - and on an internet message board of all places! Not to mention that you yourself have contributed with what, 5? 6? posts in this thread. So yeah, that's something.

All said, though, I'm sure we're all very glad you could find the time to climb down from your fucking ivory tower to humble us all with your insight. :thumbsup:

Hey, you're welcome. Sometimes I feel Toronto sports fans need a dose of reality. That's the reason I've contributed. A lot of us are like petulant spoilt children who don't realise they've got something good on their hands. Threads like this prove we still have a lot to learn on the football front. In the same way people are expressing their opinions, I'm allowed to suggest they're wrong (and vice versa).

This thread could be justified later in the year if we were doing badly, but we're not. We're actually doing quite well.

And I'm 6 foot 3, its difficult for me to not look down my nose at people :thumbsup:

[tfc007]

I am not a big fan of Ryan Nelson and I have said from day one he will not finish the season with tfc, If we lose 2 or 3 more games from now, Nelson will be gone in the first 10 games. Remember Tim promised playoffs, wouldn't surprise me if he already has someone lined up. Tim cant afford to have Nelson for half a season with losing record. The style were playing is garbage we need to take the game to them.

[JohnnyEnglish]

I am not a big fan of Ryan Nelson and I have said from day one he will not finish the season with tfc, If we lose 2 or 3 more games from now, Nelson will be gone in the first 10 games. Remember Tim promised playoffs, wouldn't surprise me if he already has someone lined up. Tim cant afford to have Nelson for half a season with losing record. The style were playing is garbage we need to take the game to them.
I think Leiweke has a decent perspective as to where we are at as a franchise. Playoffs are realistic this season under Nelson. If that doesn't happen, maybe he re evaluates his position at the end of the season.
There is no chance Leiweke has an existing plans to replace Nelson and there is no chance he will be gone after 10 games, even if we lose all of the next three. This is football, words do not always materialize and no amount of money guarantees you instant success. It's going to take any coach time, and of all people, Leiweke knows that.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I am not a big fan of Ryan Nelson and I have said from day one he will not finish the season with tfc, If we lose 2 or 3 more games from now, Nelson will be gone in the first 10 games. Remember Tim promised playoffs, wouldn't surprise me if he already has someone lined up. Tim cant afford to have Nelson for half a season with losing record. The style were playing is garbage we need to take the game to them.

If you said this from day one you are already wrong. Day one was last season.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Not exactly the point I was making, but the good thing is we all learned something today.


Bit patronising eh?


Feel free to clarify...

[Phil]

Hey, you're welcome. Sometimes I feel Toronto sports fans need a dose of reality. That's the reason I've contributed. A lot of us are like petulant spoilt children who don't realise they've got something good on their hands. Threads like this prove we still have a lot to learn on the football front. In the same way people are expressing their opinions, I'm allowed to suggest they're wrong (and vice versa).

This thread could be justified later in the year if we were doing badly, but we're not. We're actually doing quite well.

And I'm 6 foot 3, its difficult for me to not look down my nose at people :thumbsup:

7 years of disaster on the field and in management / coaching ranks will do this. Any sport, not just football - the most passionate guys are going to be talking about wether their coach is the right man or not. I am surprised it wasn't up earlier to be honest.

[Red4ever]

Hey, you're welcome. Sometimes I feel Toronto sports fans need a dose of reality. That's the reason I've contributed. A lot of us are like petulant spoilt children who don't realise they've got something good on their hands. Threads like this prove we still have a lot to learn on the football front. In the same way people are expressing their opinions, I'm allowed to suggest they're wrong (and vice versa).

This thread could be justified later in the year if we were doing badly, but we're not. We're actually doing quite well.

And I'm 6 foot 3, its difficult for me to not look down my nose at people :thumbsup:


Quality Post (this one and your previous). This thread makes us look terrible.

[brad]

I wonder what is counted a long ball -- if it is 'completed pass' then 3rd from the bottom should be about right.

Re: stats -- we can still turn the graph upside down, and celebrate.

Most likely a pass from within your own third to the oppositions third. It did dawn on me after posting this though that we are also playing the lowest number of overall passes as well so its fully expected that our number of long balls would also be lower. It is really the percentage of passes that are long balls which I'd need to look at to see were we sit with respect to other teams with long ball. Those stats aren't there, and I don't care enough to put them together :)

[brad]

Hey, you're welcome. Sometimes I feel Toronto sports fans need a dose of reality. That's the reason I've contributed. A lot of us are like petulant spoilt children who don't realise they've got something good on their hands. Threads like this prove we still have a lot to learn on the football front. In the same way people are expressing their opinions, I'm allowed to suggest they're wrong (and vice versa).

This thread could be justified later in the year if we were doing badly, but we're not. We're actually doing quite well.

And I'm 6 foot 3, its difficult for me to not look down my nose at people :thumbsup:

To be fair, the thread started in the way you mention, but has turned into a pretty fair discussion of how we are playing under Nelsen and raising points of concern.

I feel it is way to early to pass judgement on him either way, but I do see worrying signs based on how we are playing so far. I find those interesting to discuss. They may be due to injuries, a tough start, a team gelling, a team in, progress or maybe due to Nelsen himself. I think it is more than fair to disucss at this venture. These signs were present in the two games we have had with mostly our full lineups (Seattle and DC).

On Nelsen himself, I will say this. He may very well not be the right man today, but it does not mean he won't be next year. He fits the mold of some folks that have gone on to be very good managers in this league. I bet RSL supporters were having the exact same "Is he the right man for the job" discussion about Kries in years one and two.

[Pookie]

To be fair, the thread started in the way you mention, but has turned into a pretty fair discussion of how we are playing under Nelsen and raising points of concern.

I feel it is way to early to pass judgement on him either way, but I do see worrying signs based on how we are playing so far. I find those interesting to discuss. They may be due to injuries, a tough start, a team gelling, a team in, progress or maybe due to Nelsen himself. I think it is more than fair to disucss at this venture. These signs were present in the two games we have had with mostly our full lineups (Seattle and DC).

On Nelsen himself, I will say this. He may very well not be the right man today, but it does not mean he won't be next year. He fits the mold of some folks that have gone on to be very good managers in this league. I bet RSL supporters were having the exact same "Is he the right man for the job" discussion about Kries in years one and two.


I think you are on the right track and questioning passing and possession relative to the league is valid.

We can lament the "unexpected" Defoe injury or mysterious "gel" but the fact remains that the team had 2 DPs available in 5 games thus far and at least 1 DP available in all 6. Across the league only 5 other clubs have 3 DPs. 5 have 1 DP and the rest have 2. Are our DPs as good as other clubs? Yep.

So what's the issue?

Quite a few signs point to US Domestic core and that cannot be fixed without doing well at the draft.

[shwade]

The fact this thread is in to 6 pages already paints a pretty pathetic picture of some of our supporters.

Yeah it's not like there's actual discussion taking place here regarding tactics and formations. It's just a bunch of 'soccer' ignoramuses calling For the coach's head cuz they have nothing else to complain about.
/sarcasm

[Fort York Redcoat]

I think you are on the right track and questioning passing and possession relative to the league is valid.

We can lament the "unexpected" Defoe injury or mysterious "gel" but the fact remains that the team had 2 DPs available in 5 games thus far and at least 1 DP available in all 6. Across the league only 5 other clubs have 3 DPs. 5 have 1 DP and the rest have 2. Are our DPs as good as other clubs? Yep.

So what's the issue?

Quite a few signs point to US Domestic core and that cannot be fixed without doing well at the draft.

Although the above seems laden with sarcasm, I'd like to remind that teams can be built on paper but the games must be played to see what the mix will do. Any weeks highlights can point out players that have moved on to (mysteriously?) do better. Is that all on a better coach? I think not.

[TorontoGooner]

Yeah it's not like there's actual discussion taking place here regarding tactics and formations. It's just a bunch of 'soccer' ignoramuses calling For the coach's head cuz they have nothing else to complain about.
/sarcasm

You're missing my point. I'm not doubting that some sensible discussion has come out of it. What bothers me is the thread title it comes under. Questioning Nelsen's tactics and gameplan is fine, but questioining if he is right for the job or not is rash and impatient.

/notsarcasm

[TorontoGooner]

To be fair, the thread started in the way you mention, but has turned into a pretty fair discussion of how we are playing under Nelsen and raising points of concern.

I feel it is way to early to pass judgement on him either way, but I do see worrying signs based on how we are playing so far. I find those interesting to discuss. They may be due to injuries, a tough start, a team gelling, a team in, progress or maybe due to Nelsen himself. I think it is more than fair to disucss at this venture. These signs were present in the two games we have had with mostly our full lineups (Seattle and DC).

On Nelsen himself, I will say this. He may very well not be the right man today, but it does not mean he won't be next year. He fits the mold of some folks that have gone on to be very good managers in this league. I bet RSL supporters were having the exact same "Is he the right man for the job" discussion about Kries in years one and two.

I fully agree. What concerns me is the title of this thread. Its laying the foundations for a 'Nelsen Out' movement

[TorontoGooner]

7 years of disaster on the field and in management / coaching ranks will do this. Any sport, not just football - the most passionate guys are going to be talking about wether their coach is the right man or not. I am surprised it wasn't up earlier to be honest.

Not doubting the passion, its definetly there.

[TorontoGooner]

Quality Post (this one and your previous). This thread makes us look terrible.

Cheers mate

[Canary10]

We're actually doing fine. Some of these posts look like they belong on the Montreal Impact or Portland Timbers boards.

[Phil]

Hey I have no complaints about where we are at, much better than it could have been.

But....

Nelsen has 0 coaching credentials, was hired by a previous GM who has been dismissed and comes under fire for what EVERY coach in every sport comes under - tactical decisions & subs. All of that warrants the talk to me. I am still in the wait and see camp on it all. I don't think there has been any real time to gel for the players and the injuries are making it hard. Its a question of *if* he looses the room as there are enough excuses to warrant the pass for now.

[Canary10]

I don't mind having a general discussion about how Nelsen is as a coach, but I think some posts have an underlying assumption that we are doing badly when we aren't. Or maybe some people's expectations are that we'd be undefeated and leading the league right now. I don't know.

[OgtheDim]

We're actually doing fine. Some of these posts look like they belong on the Montreal Impact or Portland Timbers boards.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlwoJkgCIAA7L9j.jpg


RSL supporters bring it on the weekend.

[TorontoGooner]

I don't mind having a general discussion about how Nelsen is as a coach, but I think some posts have an underlying assumption that we are doing badly when we aren't. Or maybe some people's expectations are that we'd be undefeated and leading the league right now. I don't know.

This. 100%

[adam1001]

I don't mind having a general discussion about how Nelsen is as a coach, but I think some posts have an underlying assumption that we are doing badly when we aren't. Or maybe some people's expectations are that we'd be undefeated and leading the league right now. I don't know.

I don't think anybody here is complaining about our results thus far. I actually expected us to do much much worse than we have. The problem is that these results do not seem to be sustainable. Bunkering for 70 minutes each game is a recipe for disaster, and teams are going to start exploiting that weakness once they see that we're not capable of anything else.

[Yohan]

Nelsen's fate for this season will be decided after next ten games or so, with lots of home games

[Phil]

Bunkering for 70 is a problem.

Counter attacking and playing a defensive game that elimates direct pressure is another. I haven't seen enough of a healthy squad to determine exactly what Nelly is up to here. Face it, with all the injured talent we have we are bunkering. I am not ready to call him on it yet.

I would love to know more about the intention of the tactics from him, but understand that type of disclosure could impact how opponents are going to line up against us. I don't think we will know what our true intended style of play is until well after the world cup.

[A Stick]

What really concerns me is the fact that Nelson in the last game put Bradley out there for 90 minutes and it was clear for everybody to see he was not fit. When you have that much money invested in a player, you must managed the asset better than that. Also, why the hell were there 2 goalies on the bench?

[OgtheDim]

Hey, look, Guardiola named two keepers to his sub bench tonight.


Just saying....... :)

[pdogg]

What really concerns me is the fact that Nelson in the last game put Bradley out there for 90 minutes and it was clear for everybody to see he was not fit. When you have that much money invested in a player, you must managed the asset better than that. Also, why the hell were there 2 goalies on the bench?


Here's why there were two goalies on the bench:



F Jermain Defoe (L hamstring strain)
D Doneil Henry (L knee strain)
D Ashtone Morgan (L hip flexor strain)
F Bright Dike (L Achilles)
M Jeremy Hall (L calf strain)
M/F Dwayne De Rosario (R hamstring strain)
M Alvaro Rey (R hamstring strain)
Last update: April 18

M Jonathan Osorio (R hamstring strain)
M Michael Bradley (L quadriceps strain)



We have 28 men on our roster (according to website). Subtract out the 7 injured players, and the 3 that are down in Wilmington. Throw eleven on the field and you are left with the only 7 players left on the roster on the bench. You can either go with a short bench, or dress two goalies.

[Ultra & Proud]

Wonder if all the "possession or bust" types are watching Real Madrid sporting a sub-TFC possession rate of around 26% and still leading Bayern at home?

[T-boy]

Bunkering for 70 is a problem.

Counter attacking and playing a defensive game that elimates direct pressure is another. I haven't seen enough of a healthy squad to determine exactly what Nelly is up to here. Face it, with all the injured talent we have we are bunkering. I am not ready to call him on it yet.

I would love to know more about the intention of the tactics from him, but understand that type of disclosure could impact how opponents are going to line up against us. I don't think we will know what our true intended style of play is until well after the world cup.

Bunkering itself isn't a problem. In fact, given the fixtures we had at the start of the season, it was probably our best and only tactic in most of these games (and definitely all of the away games). I'm sure if Nelson would have come out all attack and then got blown away we would be equally complaining that "Nelson should have more cautious tactics away from home!". Given that 2 out of 4 away games the tactics actually worked is great!

The only consistency I see right now - is that we have extremely fairweather fans - one game we are the best, next we are the worst and Nelson should be fired. haha, football fans are fickle people mainly!

[molenshtain]

If people still need evidence that possession stats matter very little, that Bayern-Madrid game was case in point. Madrid attacked better, passed the ball with more ingenuity, and probably should have had more than just the one goal. All because they had way more room to operate because Bayern were sending tons of players forward.

[brad]

Wonder if all the "possession or bust" types are watching Real Madrid sporting a sub-TFC possession rate of around 26% and still leading Bayern at home?

I get the point you are trying to make, but this is a stretch to compare that to TFC. This is two of the best teams in the world, with Real taking a specific approach for this match to counter a specific playing style from the best team in the world at possession football. Just like Chelsea did against Barcelona.

It has absolutely no bearing on TFC...

[brad]

If people still need evidence that possession stats matter very little, that Bayern-Madrid game was case in point. Madrid attacked better, passed the ball with more ingenuity, and probably should have had more than just the one goal. All because they had way more room to operate because Bayern were sending tons of players forward.

Correct - now please explain how that relates to the tactics that we are using so far.

Please address the differences between Real attempting to neutralize Bayern's "best in the world" possession game and our attempt to beat last years bottom feeders DC United at home :)

Also, we haven't done any of the things you mention better than our opposition (like pass better).

[OgtheDim]

The relevance of the Bayern/Madrid match only lies in how tactics are developed.

Tactics are developed for whom you are playing against, whom you are playing with, your need for that game as far as goals and points, and the environment (weather, pitch etc).

In essence, what we can draw from the Bayern/Real match is that it is possible to be in a situation where possession is not successful, and that this situation is not dependent upon budget.

******
Which leads to my question:

What tactics should we have employed in each of the games we have had that would have provided more success then those we actually used?

I'm genuinely curious about that from people.

[molenshtain]

Correct - now please explain how that relates to the tactics that we are using so far.

Please address the differences between Real attempting to neutralize Bayern's "best in the world" possession game and our attempt to beat last years bottom feeders DC United at home :)

Also, we haven't done any of the things you mention better than our opposition (like pass better).

I was only responding to the people who think that this is an unsustainable tactic. I've given many instances to show that playing in that type of way is not unsustainable. Obviously everything we get on this side of the pond is going to be a very watered down version of what we see on TV, but that doesn't mean the same approach and tactic doesn't work. We don't pass like a good team because the team isn't familiar with each other.

There are people on here who say that long periods of possession is the only sustainable way of creating chances. I'm just trying to point out that that is wrong, and it doesn't always have to look horrible.

[brad]

The relevance of the Bayern/Madrid match only lies in how tactics are developed.

Tactics are developed for whom you are playing against, whom you are playing with, your need for that game as far as goals and points, and the environment (weather, pitch etc).


What tactics should we have employed in each of the games we have had that would have provided more success then those we actually used?

I'm genuinely curious about that from people.

In the case of RSL, a 5 man midfield vs the 4-4-2 we where playing. Probably drop Gilberto to the bench and play Hall. Their AM (I forget his name) was afforded all sorts of space in danger area's and we were out manned in the midfield due to how we lined up. That would have been a tactical adjustment to counter approach/thread in that game. And even if we had not started the match that way, making that tactical adjustment when it became apparent that we were getting killed in that area would have been an astute move.

Beyond that, I haven't really given much thought to the other games.

[brad]

I was only responding to the people who think that this is an unsustainable tactic. I've given many instances to show that playing in that type of way is not unsustainable. Obviously everything we get on this side of the pond is going to be a very watered down version of what we see on TV, but that doesn't mean the same approach and tactic doesn't work. We don't pass like a good team because the team isn't familiar with each other.

There are people on here who say that long periods of possession is the only sustainable way of creating chances. I'm just trying to point out that that is wrong, and it doesn't always have to look horrible.

I agree with all of this. As do many. In fact, I think a proper counter attacking style would be a great way for us to setup.

[adam1001]

The relevance of the Bayern/Madrid match only lies in how tactics are developed.

Tactics are developed for whom you are playing against, whom you are playing with, your need for that game as far as goals and points, and the environment (weather, pitch etc).

In essence, what we can draw from the Bayern/Real match is that it is possible to be in a situation where possession is not successful, and that this situation is not dependent upon budget.

******
Which leads to my question:

What tactics should we have employed in each of the games we have had that would have provided more success then those we actually used?

I'm genuinely curious about that from people.
And how exactly has Nelsen adjusted his tactics based on any of these? We played bunkerball against playoff contenders Seattle away, as well as against bottom feeders DC at home.We played hoofball on a crappy pitch at BMO, yet we played the exact same way at Dallas on a pristine natural grass surface. We've been a one trick pony thus far.

[Yohan]

And how exactly has Nelsen adjusted his tactics based on any of these? We played bunkerball against playoff contenders Seattle away, as well as against bottom feeders DC at home.We played hoofball on a crappy pitch at BMO, yet we played the exact same way at Dallas on a pristine natural grass surface. We've been a one trick pony thus far.
search for Tattica's articles on Rednationonline and Kristian Jack's articles on TFC on TSN. they do a good job of breaking down Nelsen's tactics after every game.

[OgtheDim]

In the case of RSL, a 5 man midfield vs the 4-4-2 we where playing. Probably drop Gilberto to the bench and play Hall. Their AM (I forget his name) was afforded all sorts of space in danger area's and we were out manned in the midfield due to how we lined up. That would have been a tactical adjustment to counter approach/thread in that game. And even if we had not started the match that way, making that tactical adjustment when it became apparent that we were getting killed in that area would have been an astute move.

...

Interesting.

Hall started that game alongside Bradley. Thinking at the time (oh so long ago now) was Hall is more effective a CM then Bekker. Hall as a DM, with Bradley and Bekker as CM's might have worked better (although Bekker's confidence was not good before that game and grew immensely after time spent in training before the Columbus game).

My bigger question in that game was Bloom to RM. Should have kept Bloom at RB and put Orr up there. Issy wasn't ready yet.

People miss out on the human factor.

Mind you, this is the easy one to look at - the obvious bad game.

[molenshtain]

^^Orr is not at all a midfielder. he has absolutely zero pace or attacking intuition. he does his job well defensively but I'd even be worried about putting him at RB. Bloom was the better option of the two.

[brad]

Interesting.

Hall started that game alongside Bradley. Thinking at the time (oh so long ago now) was Hall is more effective a CM then Bekker. Hall as a DM, with Bradley and Bekker as CM's might have worked better (although Bekker's confidence was not good before that game and grew immensely after time spent in training before the Columbus game).

My bigger question in that game was Bloom to RM. Should have kept Bloom at RB and put Orr up there. Issy wasn't ready yet.

People miss out on the human factor.

Mind you, this is the easy one to look at - the obvious bad game.

Right about Hall - my bad. Bekker-Hall-Bradley was what I was thinking at that time (3 man midfield). We probably would have lost anyway. Key point is we were getting over-run in the midfield and Nelsen did nothing to address that - when he had the options to do so.

Anyway, despite being a bit of a negative voice about the tactics - I am firmly in the wait and see camp. It is too early to make any calls - and the results so far back what he is doing.

[gate7]

the greatest thing about this topic is that 1 man had the courage to start a thread about something many people were thinking.. already 7 pages...

[gate7]

last season tfc lost 17 games...7 of which the losing goal was in the final 15 minutes or 47%

this year TFC's loses by late goals is 2 out of 3 or 66%. I hope this is just a coincidence or is it Nielsen?

[brad]

Right about Hall - my bad. Bekker-Hall-Bradley was what I was thinking at that time (3 man midfield). We probably would have lost anyway. Key point is we were getting over-run in the midfield and Nelsen did nothing to address that - when he had the options to do so.

Anyway, despite being a bit of a negative voice about the tactics - I am firmly in the wait and see camp. It is too early to make any calls - and the results so far back what he is doing.

Also - my thinking at the time was we locked ourselves into 4-4-2 come hell or high water when we signed 2 DP strikers.

[brad]

last season tfc lost 17 games...7 of which the losing goal was in the final 15 minutes or 47%

this year TFC's loses by late goals is 2 out of 3 or 66%. I hope this is just a coincidence or is it Nielsen?

if you look back further you will see this trend existed before Nelsen was here. I also believe that we have improved dramatically last year in this regard under him (there were stats about this floating around last year) - but I don't have them handy so I can't confirm.

[Richard]

last season tfc lost 17 games...7 of which the losing goal was in the final 15 minutes or 47%

this year TFC's loses by late goals is 2 out of 3 or 66%. I hope this is just a coincidence or is it Nielsen?


Small sample size but I'm very interested how it will balance out throughout the season.

I never liked anti football, if we want to play this way for the rest of the year then we might as well not have fired Preki. I hope this is the case of Nelson choosing to play conservatively due to injury, but Pookie is right that there is a replacement for every player but Defoe, whether or not he is forced to play this tactic shall be known soon enough.

[T-boy]

I think not only can we not replace Defoe, but we also currently don't have an alternative to him. This is where we really miss Dike or somebody like him. We don't have a forward who can hold up the ball and defend from the front. That makes a huge difference when defending a last ten minute lead.

[starter]

OT


Feel free to clarify...

In that context -- yes.

[jloome]

Also - my thinking at the time was we locked ourselves into 4-4-2 come hell or high water when we signed 2 DP strikers.

I actually think with our roster a 4-2-2 makes sense. We get the most penetration from Rey (dribbling) and Jackson (speed), and one of the central mids is supposed to be a pivot while the other advances to be the late trailer in the box.

My issue is with our movement. It's quite good in some areas, particularly around the two-thirds mark. But around the edge of the box we break down. We do seem to play wide all the time, too, and in our own end we always tend to develop through one side, without ever overloading and switching.

I guess a lot of this is cohesion, guys knowing when to step back and show for the ball or when to cut for a run between the midfield and defenders, or off the defenders' shoulders. The older I get, the more I think that the only substitute for having guys with insanely good vision on the ball is to have great familiarity with what other players are doing off of it.

[pawlukj]

i dont like the fact he blamed it on injured players after the loss, seems like hes redirecting the negative criticims the easy way out and theyre starting to look like excuses, that and the fact that the team looked like a total flop (similar to last years) sunk me down a bit, so , fo the time being im going to have to say hes in the hot seat

[molenshtain]

i dont like the fact he blamed it on injured players after the loss, seems like hes redirecting the negative criticims the easy way out and theyre starting to look like excuses, that and the fact that the team looked like a total flop (similar to last years) sunk me down a bit, so , fo the time being im going to have to say hes in the hot seat


How exactly is he in the hot seat? I reiterate; it's six games in, and we're not even playing badly.

You'll notice that lots of managers do this.Fuck me, the first few months of the Brendan Rodgers era at Liverpool was all " I know we lost, but the boys played hard" and "we had a lot of injuries, if we we had those players I think we would have stood a better chance." Look where they are now.

What exactly do you want him to do? he can't blame the players, that goes against his thesis of always keeping a positive locker room atmosphere. He can't blame himself, 'cuz then the media and fans will start wondering if it's his fault every time we lose, and despite what he might deliver us later that's really not good for him in the short term. Coaches find excuses after poor results, it's been like that in all sports since the beginning and it will continue 'till the end of time. I'm not sure why you hold Nelsen to a higher standard.

If you're a coach, you should never, ever address criticisms of your team in an honest matter to the media. You give vague statements because most of the time the media only warrants vague statements. he can't afford to have people second guessing every single decision he makes at this point in time.

[Pookie]

If I am Nelsen, I blame injuries too. It is a ready made excuse that many seem to be buying.

He can't really go out and say what Winter said as in we need better players. While that is likely very true, he'd submarine his bosses and pave his way out the door.

If the pressure starts to build I think his post game comments will start to get more specific.

Btw, brad great arguments back there. Keep it up.

[ExiledRed]

I saw this quote today, referring to the Chelse/Atletico match

"If you approach a match with a siege mentality, it should not be a surprise when it eventually turns into a siege"This is my feeling about how TFC have played since day one of their existence.

The reason we lose leads in the last fifteen minutes is because we are so rarely more than one goal up.

We almost never try to increase the lead and create an uncontestable buffer between us and the opponent team.

If we are one up in the second half, a forward or an attacking midfielder is coming off and our half is going to be the Alamo for the rest of the game.

Absolutely every single coach we've ever had does this.

[adam1001]

I saw this quote today, referring to the Chelse/Atletico match

"If you approach a match with a siege mentality, it should not be a surprise when it eventually turns into a siege"

This is my feeling about how TFC have played since day one of their existence.

The reason we lose leads in the last fifteen minutes is because we are so rarely more than one goal up.

We almost never try to increase the lead and create an uncontestable buffer between us and the opponent team.

If we are one up in the second half, a forward or an attacking midfielder is coming off and our half is going to be the Alamo for the rest of the game.

Absolutely every single coach we've ever had does this.

Agreed 100%. Great post.

[pdubs]

I think TB and RN have the potential to put a team out that plays a commanding style. However we are looking at another couple transfer windows plus the important draft we have coming out. Just need more time. In the short-term we have to do what we can to get results during games and having reevaluating my stance, I do think counter-attacking style is probably our best bet.

[brad]

I saw this quote today, referring to the Chelse/Atletico match

"If you approach a match with a siege mentality, it should not be a surprise when it eventually turns into a siege"

This is my feeling about how TFC have played since day one of their existence.

The reason we lose leads in the last fifteen minutes is because we are so rarely more than one goal up.

We almost never try to increase the lead and create an uncontestable buffer between us and the opponent team.

If we are one up in the second half, a forward or an attacking midfielder is coming off and our half is going to be the Alamo for the rest of the game.

Absolutely every single coach we've ever had does this.

Definitely true. The other side though is that if we are leading in the last 15 minutes, the other team is going throw everything at us to try and equalize. We have never had a manager able to make the appropriate tactical adjustments to stem that flow, and never really had the bench to make those adjustements.

They throw numbers forward, we win the ball, and hoof it right back to them. Rinse and repeat until we tire out and eventually cave under the pressure. No coincidence that people also used to complain about our fitness looking poor when we tired out in the last 15 minutes... That's a result of this scenario

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

moyes is avail

[ExiledRed]

Definitely true. The other side though is that if we are leading in the last 15 minutes, the other team is going throw everything at us to try and equalize. We have never had a manager able to make the appropriate tactical adjustments to stem that flow, and never really had the bench to make those adjustements.

They throw numbers forward, we win the ball, and hoof it right back to them. Rinse and repeat until we tire out and eventually cave under the pressure. No coincidence that people also used to complain about our fitness looking poor when we tired out in the last 15 minutes... That's a result of this scenario

I tried to make a post like this the other day, to answer the question about why we always concede in the last fifteen. Thankyou for articulating that better than I could.

In a nutshell, the other team are trying hard to equalise or win and instead of us trying to close the door with another goal we are bunkering and not just conceding posession but conceding control of the game. As you say, we play negative, get exhausted and eventually crack under the barrage.

This is an old argument going back to 'do we need a defender DP or a forward DP'

The Defender DP case was that we always give the game up in the last fifteen. Therefore a stronger defence was required.

The argument for the striker was that a lack of teeth in front of goal was what was leading to us being on a knife edge in the first place. If we were two or three up in the last fifteen of any particular game, we wouldnt have this issue. Even if we were only one up, putting the other team on the back foot at the end of the game is surely going to reduce the number of chances they generate.

Those who favour the negative, defensive style of play went with the former argument. We need a defender.

So anyway here's the point.

If the other team is going full on at us in the last fifteen, and we are a counteratttacking team, we should have more chances in this period than any other, no?
Surely counterattacking, is about countering attacks, not about absorbing them.

[brad]

I tried to make a post like this the other day, to answer the question about why we always concede in the last fifteen. Thankyou for articulating that better than I could.

In a nutshell, the other team are trying hard to equalise or win and instead of us trying to close the door with another goal we are bunkering and not just conceding posession but conceding control of the game. As you say, we play negative, get exhausted and eventually crack under the barrage.

This is an old argument going back to 'do we need a defender DP or a forward DP'

The Defender DP case was that we always give the game up in the last fifteen. Therefore a stronger defence was required.

In the past - our defense was always weak (well - the whole team was) and that caused problems - but this is a whole team problem. Defenders lacked composure under pressure to play the ball out. Midfield did not hold shape and did not show for the pass from the defense.

Under Nelsen we are holding shape way better, and with Bradley we have a lot more composure and better positioning for that first pass. The one thing that does worry me a bit is Caldwell has been known his entire career as a safety first, boot it out defender, and we definitely see that here.

Alone, I don't think a defensive DP would have change things much TBH.


The argument for the striker was that a lack of teeth in front of goal was what was leading to us being on a knife edge in the first place. If we were two or three up in the last fifteen of any particular game, we wouldnt have this issue. Even if we were only one up, putting the other team on the back foot at the end of the game is surely going to reduce the number of chances they generate.

For sure. And in games where we are only up by one, the DP striker actually helps as well - so long as they have good hold up play.

I actually discussed this with DeKlerk a few years ago. We used to go into "a defensive shell" late on when we were a goal up - we'd sub off Koevs for a defender, and inevitably concede. What DeKlerk told me was that Koevs gets tired, they need to take him off. They had nobody else they could sub on in place of him up front to do his job, so they put on a defender and hoped for the best. Without the hold up play up front to take pressure off the team, they eventually broke. He flat out said that they knew the strategy probably going to fail, but they had no other options so they had to do it and hope for the best.


Those who favour the negative, defensive style of play went with the former argument. We need a defender.

So anyway here's the point.

If the other team is going full on at us in the last fifteen, and we are a counteratttacking team, we should have more chances in this period than any other, no?
Surely counterattacking, is about countering attacks, not about absorbing them.

Exactly. For a proper counterattacking team - this period should be gold. Doesn't mean you'll win them all, but we should be hitting them on the counter. Unless there is such a massive gulf in class between the two sides that we aren't capable of hitting back. A place like RSL away would be the only example I could think of where there would be a viable reason this wouldn't work - based on the quality of their team and how much more tired we would be near the end due to altitude.

As a complete aside - this pressure/tire out thing is exactly why Man Utd scored so many late goals under Fergie. If he was down with 15 minutes to go, he'd commit to all out attack. Against he vast majority of non-top premier league teams, the gulf in class was simply too great for the other teams to sustain that pressure (especially back in the 90's when the gulf in class was greater). They'd tire and concede.

[Pookie]

Great discussion.

Does not controlling possession for significant stretches during the first 75 mins contribute to late game "tire and concede" outcomes?

MLS stats on possession are now published in 5' increments. Review most TFC games and you may see only one 5' segment of a 45' half in which the team enjoyed keeping the ball more than the opponents.

Factor or non factor?

[starter]

Playing low percentage long balls against the build up teams by definition will land you in under 50% possession range.
I do not think this is how we necessary want to play, we are just not prepared to impose ourselves as a team.
This is ought to change for us to make the playoffs, as per recent possession to playoff correlation trends.

[jloome]

I tried to make a post like this the other day, to answer the question about why we always concede in the last fifteen. Thankyou for articulating that better than I could.

In a nutshell, the other team are trying hard to equalise or win and instead of us trying to close the door with another goal we are bunkering and not just conceding posession but conceding control of the game. As you say, we play negative, get exhausted and eventually crack under the barrage.

This is an old argument going back to 'do we need a defender DP or a forward DP'

The Defender DP case was that we always give the game up in the last fifteen. Therefore a stronger defence was required.

The argument for the striker was that a lack of teeth in front of goal was what was leading to us being on a knife edge in the first place. If we were two or three up in the last fifteen of any particular game, we wouldnt have this issue. Even if we were only one up, putting the other team on the back foot at the end of the game is surely going to reduce the number of chances they generate.

Those who favour the negative, defensive style of play went with the former argument. We need a defender.

So anyway here's the point.

If the other team is going full on at us in the last fifteen, and we are a counteratttacking team, we should have more chances in this period than any other, no?
Surely counterattacking, is about countering attacks, not about absorbing them.

I kind of sense they've always taken the "build from the back" approach, on the suggestion that because the team is constantly "rebuilding", they have to follow the edict of defense first. Then it never gets beyond that. I mean, I really don't recall the last time we tried to press high and keep the ball in our opponents' half. I like a good counterattack, but surely it's not the only thing we'll ever do.

At least this crew holds the promise of some stability to see if they expand beyond bunkering in once they've nicked a lead (and I do mean nicked; that Osorio through ball to Defoe was a pretty rare occasion for this club).

[brad]

Great discussion.

Does not controlling possession for significant stretches during the first 75 mins contribute to late game "tire and concede" outcomes?

MLS stats on possession are now published in 5' increments. Review most TFC games and you may see only one 5' segment of a 45' half in which the team enjoyed keeping the ball more than the opponents.

Factor or non factor?

Can't say based on posession alone. In fact - in a number of games I would say we looked controlled and comfortable when not in posession.

I would say the larger factor in fatigue is what the opponent is doing to you. A lot of posession the opposition have in a number of games has been in areas where they couldn't really hurt us and we looked quite comfortable when they had the ball.

You tire when you are chasing the ball down endlessly and when to opposition is coming at you and not letting you catch your breath. In the games where Bradley was fit we did very well controlling the center of the park and forcing the opposition to play in areas they couldn't hurt us in.

[jabbronies]

Great discussion.

Does not controlling possession for significant stretches during the first 75 mins contribute to late game "tire and concede" outcomes?

MLS stats on possession are now published in 5' increments. Review most TFC games and you may see only one 5' segment of a 45' half in which the team enjoyed keeping the ball more than the opponents.

Factor or non factor?

BAM Right here!

I'm not sure why Bradley and Nelsen are not worried about the lack of possession we have in a game. If we don't have the ball, that means we are defending and moving at the mercy of the other team. As they move the ball we have to adjust and move. I'm not saying that we are running hard and chasing the ball. Sure we look like we are in control, but we are running way more than the other team. The more we move, the more tired we get. It's basic stuff here.

If we have the ball, we are not running - the ball is doing that for us.

[TFC07]

This team is so boring to watch that TV ratings are dropping because of it. Let's bring back "attacking football" where we actually fun to watch despite lack of talent (or lack of healthy talented players) while dealing with backroom politics who hated "attacking football" movement.

[backbeat]

i still think we are too early judging the team and Nelsen on this.

listen to the Osorio interview today - he talks about how the team is focusing on a possession game in practice - that they are building to be a possession team - it is steps

they have only played 6 games and have barely had the starting 11 together for any of those matches

i really believe we'll see a very different team 14 games in....

i understand the 7 years of frustration - i've been here every moment of it - but i do think we need to give this group some time.

personally i like where they're headed..........i think..........

[Cashcleaner]

I saw this quote today, referring to the Chelse/Atletico match

"If you approach a match with a siege mentality, it should not be a surprise when it eventually turns into a siege"

This is my feeling about how TFC have played since day one of their existence.

The reason we lose leads in the last fifteen minutes is because we are so rarely more than one goal up.

We almost never try to increase the lead and create an uncontestable buffer between us and the opponent team.

If we are one up in the second half, a forward or an attacking midfielder is coming off and our half is going to be the Alamo for the rest of the game.

Absolutely every single coach we've ever had does this.

I cannot disagree with much of what you've said.

Though I will remark that under Carver, we did pull off the most games with a 2+ goal margin in regular season play (I believe 4 games in 2008) and he probably had the most offensive-oriented attitude out of all our coaches/managers. Heck, at the end of the 2008 season the Supporters' Shield winner (Columbus) had a total of 41 goals at the season and we were only 4 behind them with 37. I think that's something to consider.


BAM Right here!

I'm not sure why Bradley and Nelsen are not worried about the lack of possession we have in a game. If we don't have the ball, that means we are defending and moving at the mercy of the other team. As they move the ball we have to adjust and move. I'm not saying that we are running hard and chasing the ball. Sure we look like we are in control, but we are running way more than the other team. The more we move, the more tired we get. It's basic stuff here.

If we have the ball, we are not running - the ball is doing that for us.

Absolutely. Look, I agree that possession is only one component out of many that comprise a team's strategy in any given match, and whatever the number is, it's never guaranteed to translate into goals for or against us, respectively. But I think it's wrong to simply dismiss it and any discussion about it. It certainly has implications for the club, and I imagine steps are being made to change the situation.

Hey, if we can hold on to the ball for only a quarter of the match and still win, I'm not gonna complain. I don't think anyone else will either, but at the moment we've got a 3-3-0 record and I don't think it's unreasonable to mention it.


i still think we are too early judging the team and Nelsen on this.

listen to the Osorio interview today - he talks about how the team is focusing on a possession game in practice - that they are building to be a possession team - it is steps

they have only played 6 games and have barely had the starting 11 together for any of those matches

i really believe we'll see a very different team 14 games in....

i understand the 7 years of frustration - i've been here every moment of it - but i do think we need to give this group some time.

personally i like where they're headed..........i think..........

I think we're going to see a whole new dynamic open up once Gilberto can find the back of the net. We definitely are going in the right direction. I don't think we can chalk all of our recent poor performances up to injuries, but they obviously play a factor and a healthy squad is superior in every way.

[anto7]

Anyone listen to the latest Nelson interview? I get the feeling that once we have everyone fit and playing together for a few games our style will change for the better. I think Nelson is correct in stating that you need to have a good foundation first and foremost and then build form that. He indicates that they are working on the offensive aspect of the team now but it's been difficult with so many key guys out injured. I saw glimpses of what we are capable of in the first half in Seattle so I am optimistic that we will get better and play some better soccer in the months ahead. Perhaps I am the being overly optomistic out of desperation for success after 7 miserable years but I think Nelson should be given a chance to see if he can prove himself and judging him after 6 games is a little unfair I'm my opinion given what he has had to work with

[SKB]

If I compare TFC to Liverpool it took their coach some time to put his mark on to the team. As long as Ryan is moving the team along and we are getting steadily better I am fine. However, if we stall like Moyes at MANU then his future would need to be considered. You need to evaluate in 3 blocks 10 games at a time to gauge progress. We are not there yet.

[Canary10]

Interesting preamble to the Guardian's Chelsea-Atletico minute-by-minute today, with some bearing on this conversation.

PreambleEvening. Last Tuesday night, thousands and thousands of neutrals sat in front of their televisions, ready for an evening of top-quality European action, and it wasn't long before they were all raging at their screens, decrying Chelsea and Jose Mourinho as the enemies of football, anti-football luddites who will stop at nothing to ruin our enjoyment of the sport, the shameless swines. Entertain me. Go on. Entertain me. Entertain me now. You'd better entertain me. Entertain me this instant, else they'll be hell to pay! I'll blog! Don't think I won't blog! And I'll tweet. Then you'll wish you'd entertained me.
Thing is, Chelsea and Mourinho have no obligation to entertain us; nowhere in the laws of football does it state that to be the case and, until that changes, teams are free to do whatever the hell they want to in order to get the win, even if that means parking a bus in front of the goal. Or two buses. Or two buses and Mourinho's gargantuan ego. The only obligation Mourinho has is to do what he feels is best for Chelsea and clearly, at the moment anyway, that is not to try to be peak Barcelona, it is to play to their considerable strengths: their defence, their organisation, their power and their speed on the break, all of which makes them a formidable proposition to overcome when everything comes together at once. The rest of us? This is what Mourinho thinks of the rest of us:

At this moment, football is full of philosophers. People who understand much more than me. People with fantastic theories and philosophies. It's amazing. But the reality is always the reality. A team that doesn't defend well doesn't have many chances to win. A team that doesn't score lots of goals, if they concede lots of goals, is in trouble. A team without balance is not a team. I remember in my first period here, if you have a goalkeeper like Petr Cech who puts the ball in the opponents' box, and a striker like Didier Drogba who wins everything in the air, why play short? Because you are stupid? If your opponents are very fast on the counter and want space behind your defensive line, if you give them that space you are stupid. So when a team plays strategically and [a manager] thinks about his team and the qualities of the opponent … 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 'good teams, intelligent teams'. In this moment – depending on the coach and the club obviously – the critics speak."
Wise words, although the critics can still say whatever they want. IT'S STILL A FREE COUNTRY, LAST TIME I CHECKED. Game of opinions, innit, game of opinions, and just as Mourinho is free to set up his team as he pleases, neutrals are free not to like watching Chelsea. It can, and there's no getting away from this, be extremely hard to watch matches as incident-free as last week's first leg but at the same time, you would have to be remarkably obtuse not to be able to admire what Chelsea have achieved in the past couple of years in Europe. Put it this way: there wasn't a Chelsea fan alive who, as Didier Drogba sent Manuel Neuer the wrong way, stayed totally still while everyone else went crazy and said: "Nope. Not having it, we got lucky, we parked the bus, we should have lost every game we played on this run. Where's the glory, the style, thepanache? I'm not having it. Play it again." The ends justify the means and, more often than not, football is defined by the winner. The reality is the reality.
And the reality is that Chelsea are one game away from their second Champions League final in three years. The reality is also that anyone who watched last night's defensive shambles from Bayern Munich would have to admit that there is value in proper, old-school defending, the kind that seems to have been lost in the last few years. A confession: unless my mind is playing tricks on me, I quite enjoyed the 2003 final between Milan and Juventus. Good defending is enjoyable, an art form in its own way. It might not be as memorable as tiki-taka but it is a part of the game. "There is no 'one way' to play football," Diego Simeone reckons. "If we all played the same way, it would be very boring."
So, negative football, leaving 10 men behind the ball, playing for penalties and never attacking, is negative, we can agree on that. But counter-attacking football? The clue's in the name. The idea behind is to use the other side's strengths against them, lure them in and then, when the time is right, to punish them with your pace and directness, as Real Madrid repeatedly did to Bayern. One of the most gripping performances by any top side this season was Chelsea's win at Manchester City: powerful, imposing and ruthless. No one called them negative that night; quite the opposite.
But that was where they failed against Atletico Madrid last week. Chelsea might have choked Atletico but Mourinho knew that they only did half the job: it cannot be a masterclass if you do not score. Chelsea were poor on the break, failing to create any chances or ever really suggesting that they might, and that surely wasn't part of the plan, and the failure to score an away goal could yet prove costly. Manchester United found that out against Monaco and Real Madrid in 1998, and Chelsea did against Barcelona in 2009 (yes, Tom Henning Ovrebo helped in that regard). One goal from Atletico, who have the best defensive record in the competition, would make this an exceptionally awkward task for Chelsea, who haven't exactly been at their best against sides who come to Stamford Bridge and sit back, deny them space and play on the break. How very Alanis Morissette.

[molenshtain]

BAM Right here!

I'm not sure why Bradley and Nelsen are not worried about the lack of possession we have in a game. If we don't have the ball, that means we are defending and moving at the mercy of the other team. As they move the ball we have to adjust and move. I'm not saying that we are running hard and chasing the ball. Sure we look like we are in control, but we are running way more than the other team. The more we move, the more tired we get. It's basic stuff here.

If we have the ball, we are not running - the ball is doing that for us.

Please provide stats that show we run more than the other teams. if you have the ball, it doesn't mean you stop running. Those Barcelona teams ran more than anyone. style of play does not determine how much you run. I could just as easily spin it as if counter-attacking/ sitting behind the ball means we're only shifting side to side and running shorter distances whereas the attacking team has to run around to try and make things happen. That's obviously not true though and the actual truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. stop letting your gut get in the way of facts.

I really, honestly hate to have to point this out yet again because it seems so obvious, but possession does not matter one bit. It's how effective you are with the ball and how effective you are at limiting and capitalizing on mistakes that makes winning teams. There are multiple tactical routes to this and not all of them are about always being attacking and controlling the ball. sometimes it's far more pragmatic to let your opponent have the ball for the game.

[Pookie]

Interesting preamble to the Guardian's Chelsea-Atletico minute-by-minute today, with some bearing on this conversation.

Preamble

Evening. Last Tuesday night, thousands and thousands of neutrals sat in front of their televisions, ready for an evening of top-quality European action, and it wasn't long before they were all raging at their screens, decrying Chelsea and Jose Mourinho as the enemies of football, anti-football luddites who will stop at nothing to ruin our enjoyment of the sport, the shameless swines. Entertain me. Go on. Entertain me. Entertain me now. You'd better entertain me. Entertain me this instant, else they'll be hell to pay! I'll blog! Don't think I won't blog! And I'll tweet. Then you'll wish you'd entertained me.
Thing is, Chelsea and Mourinho have no obligation to entertain us; nowhere in the laws of football does it state that to be the case and, until that changes, teams are free to do whatever the hell they want to in order to get the win, even if that means parking a bus in front of the goal. Or two buses. Or two buses and Mourinho's gargantuan ego. The only obligation Mourinho has is to do what he feels is best for Chelsea and clearly, at the moment anyway, that is not to try to be peak Barcelona, it is to play to their considerable strengths: their defence, their organisation, their power and their speed on the break, all of which makes them a formidable proposition to overcome when everything comes together at once. The rest of us? This is what Mourinho thinks of the rest of us:
At this moment, football is full of philosophers. People who understand much more than me. People with fantastic theories and philosophies. It's amazing. But the reality is always the reality. A team that doesn't defend well doesn't have many chances to win. A team that doesn't score lots of goals, if they concede lots of goals, is in trouble. A team without balance is not a team. I remember in my first period here, if you have a goalkeeper like Petr Cech who puts the ball in the opponents' box, and a striker like Didier Drogba who wins everything in the air, why play short? Because you are stupid? If your opponents are very fast on the counter and want space behind your defensive line, if you give them that space you are stupid. So when a team plays strategically and [a manager] thinks about his team and the qualities of the opponent … 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 'good teams, intelligent teams'. In this moment – depending on the coach and the club obviously – the critics speak."

Wise words, although the critics can still say whatever they want. IT'S STILL A FREE COUNTRY, LAST TIME I CHECKED. Game of opinions, innit, game of opinions, and just as Mourinho is free to set up his team as he pleases, neutrals are free not to like watching Chelsea. It can, and there's no getting away from this, be extremely hard to watch matches as incident-free as last week's first leg but at the same time, you would have to be remarkably obtuse not to be able to admire what Chelsea have achieved in the past couple of years in Europe. Put it this way: there wasn't a Chelsea fan alive who, as Didier Drogba sent Manuel Neuer the wrong way, stayed totally still while everyone else went crazy and said: "Nope. Not having it, we got lucky, we parked the bus, we should have lost every game we played on this run. Where's the glory, the style, thepanache? I'm not having it. Play it again." The ends justify the means and, more often than not, football is defined by the winner. The reality is the reality.
And the reality is that Chelsea are one game away from their second Champions League final in three years. The reality is also that anyone who watched last night's defensive shambles from Bayern Munich would have to admit that there is value in proper, old-school defending, the kind that seems to have been lost in the last few years. A confession: unless my mind is playing tricks on me, I quite enjoyed the 2003 final between Milan and Juventus. Good defending is enjoyable, an art form in its own way. It might not be as memorable as tiki-taka but it is a part of the game. "There is no 'one way' to play football," Diego Simeone reckons. "If we all played the same way, it would be very boring."
So, negative football, leaving 10 men behind the ball, playing for penalties and never attacking, is negative, we can agree on that. But counter-attacking football? The clue's in the name. The idea behind is to use the other side's strengths against them, lure them in and then, when the time is right, to punish them with your pace and directness, as Real Madrid repeatedly did to Bayern. One of the most gripping performances by any top side this season was Chelsea's win at Manchester City: powerful, imposing and ruthless. No one called them negative that night; quite the opposite.
But that was where they failed against Atletico Madrid last week. Chelsea might have choked Atletico but Mourinho knew that they only did half the job: it cannot be a masterclass if you do not score. Chelsea were poor on the break, failing to create any chances or ever really suggesting that they might, and that surely wasn't part of the plan, and the failure to score an away goal could yet prove costly. Manchester United found that out against Monaco and Real Madrid in 1998, and Chelsea did against Barcelona in 2009 (yes, Tom Henning Ovrebo helped in that regard). One goal from Atletico, who have the best defensive record in the competition, would make this an exceptionally awkward task for Chelsea, who haven't exactly been at their best against sides who come to Stamford Bridge and sit back, deny them space and play on the break. How very Alanis Morissette.


It is interesting.

I wonder why no one ever really talks about the other side of the coin.

If it is true that you need to defend well to win, you also need to score to win too. The whole "best defense is a good offense" school of thought.

In soccer, keeping the ball in the attacking 3rd limits the other team's ability to score. Table leaders typically have something in common, they tend to league the league (or in the top 5) in goals for.

This year's EPL table? Liverpool, Chelsea and Man City in the top 3 in goals for. Liverpool have actually given up more goals (46) than Everton (36), United (40) Palace (43) and Hull (45). The difference is in goals for at well over 30 more than each of those sides.

Last year? United, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal all top 4. Interestingly, United conceded only 2 fewer goals (43) than Stoke City (45) but potted 52 more. They also only managed 5 draws on the year vs Stoke (not to pick on Stoke) who had 15. Giving away over 30 points as a result of earning the draw.

Go to a league with parity and the same general picture emerges, with but a few exceptions.

Take MLS and forget playoffs. If they had a table champion last year, it would have been NY. NY led the league in goals scored. Same with 2012 and San Jose. Top of the league in goals scored. Etc. Etc.

Lots of ways to win of course but I think that a defense minded mentality that is used throughout a season in soccer (or hockey) comes from a team that wants to be "competitive". They don't want to get blown out and realize they don't have the same talent as the top clubs. Keep the standings close as long as possible and maybe with a bit of good fortune get in a race. Sell some tickets. Keep the fans interested.

Granted individual games from champions might employ different tactics (as you noted with Chelsea) depending on circumstances. But generally speaking, good teams score a lot of goals. You typically don't get that by absorbing pressure all season long, IMO.

[molenshtain]

It is interesting.

I wonder why no one ever really talks about the other side of the coin.

If it is true that you need to defend well to win, you also need to score to win too. The whole "best defense is a good offense" school of thought.

In soccer, keeping the ball in the attacking 3rd limits the other team's ability to score. Table leaders typically have something in common, they tend to league the league (or in the top 5) in goals for.

This year's EPL table? Liverpool, Chelsea and Man City in the top 3 in goals for. Liverpool have actually given up more goals (46) than Everton (36), United (40) Palace (43) and Hull (45). The difference is in goals for at well over 30 more than each of those sides.

Last year? United, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal all top 4. Interestingly, United conceded only 2 fewer goals (43) than Stoke City (45) but potted 52 more. They also only managed 5 draws on the year vs Stoke (not to pick on Stoke) who had 15. Giving away over 30 points as a result of earning the draw.

Go to a league with parity and the same general picture emerges, with but a few exceptions.

Take MLS and forget playoffs. If they had a table champion last year, it would have been NY. NY led the league in goals scored. Same with 2012 and San Jose. Top of the league in goals scored. Etc. Etc.

Lots of ways to win of course but I think that a defense minded mentality that is used throughout a season in soccer (or hockey) comes from a team that wants to be "competitive". They don't want to get blown out and realize they don't have the same talent as the top clubs. Keep the standings close as long as possible and maybe with a bit of good fortune get in a race. Sell some tickets. Keep the fans interested.

Granted individual games from champions might employ different tactics (as you noted with Chelsea) depending on circumstances. But generally speaking, good teams score a lot of goals. You typically don't get that by absorbing pressure all season long, IMO.

Good teams score more AND concede less than the teams below them. that's why they win games and they are higher up the standings. You can't just say "look! good teams score a lot" because sure, that's fine they do, But they also concede far less, and very good defensive teams are 9/10 times going to beat very good attacking teams.

It's interesting you didn't go back any further than the last two years, obviously leaving out the defensively stout Galaxy teams that destroyed everyone on the back of the best defense this league has seen and midfield and attack that were pretty good on capitalizing on mistakes. go even further back and the general trend, in this league at least, is that having the base of a good defense is better than trying to put out an attacking team with little defensive capabilities. How many good MLS teams from the last 8 or so years since we've been in the league would you say had a better and more consistent offense than defense?

Fact of the matter - and this is in all sports - is that good defenses are more consistent than good offenses because defense is about hustle, it's about how much you work, it's how much you concentrate, it's how strong you are and how big you are and how you use that to your advantage. Offense is much, much more difficult to consistently produce because it involves a certain level of IQ, and then when teams figuere out the little things you like to do you have to create some new way of getting the ball into the other team's net ( or basket or endzone etc.),and so this happens again and again until you run out of ideas. Very good defensive units can just go out and keep on doing the same thing they've been doing.

[jabbronies]

Those Barcelona teams ran more than anyone. style of play does not determine how much you run. I could just as easily spin it as if counter-attacking/ sitting behind the ball means we're only shifting side to side and running shorter distances whereas the attacking team has to run around to try and make things happen. That's obviously not true though and the actual truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. stop letting your gut get in the way of facts.


I agree with some of this.

However - just watch the game and you see that TFC - who are not with the ball - are running more than the opposing team.
Stats only show part of the picture. If you have played the game - not you, specifically, but anyone - you will know that when your team is running with the ball - it's way easier than if your team doesn't have the ball. You are running at your own teams pace - If you don't have the ball your pace is dictated for you by the other team. They have the ball. They are making you run.

[Pookie]

Good teams score more AND concede less than the teams below them. that's why they win games and they are higher up the standings. You can't just say "look! good teams score a lot" because sure, that's fine they do, But they also concede far less, and very good defensive teams are 9/10 times going to beat very good attacking teams.

It's interesting you didn't go back any further than the last two years, obviously leaving out the defensively stout Galaxy teams that destroyed everyone on the back of the best defense this league has seen and midfield and attack that were pretty good on capitalizing on mistakes. go even further back and the general trend, in this league at least, is that having the base of a good defense is better than trying to put out an attacking team with little defensive capabilities. How many good MLS teams from the last 8 or so years since we've been in the league would you say had a better and more consistent offense than defense?

Fact of the matter - and this is in all sports - is that good defenses are more consistent than good offenses because defense is about hustle, it's about how much you work, it's how much you concentrate, it's how strong you are and how big you are and how you use that to your advantage. Offense is much, much more difficult to consistently produce because it involves a certain level of IQ, and then when teams figuere out the little things you like to do you have to create some new way of getting the ball into the other team's net ( or basket or endzone etc.),and so this happens again and again until you run out of ideas. Very good defensive units can just go out and keep on doing the same thing they've been doing.

I didn't go back as I'm not writing an article on it just highlighting there is another side of the coin.

That 2012 San Jose example doesn't back up your first point though. San Jose conceded 43 goals that year. Good for 7th in terms of goals against. 2013, same thing with NY. They would have been in a 3 way tie for 6th in terms of goals conceded.

Hockey is similar. "The trap" became very popular as teams found out that by using it, they could keep games closer. Some were successful with it and others weren't. At the end of the day, a team could appear competitive as the results were often close and the standings were congested which was great for ticket sales and interest in the teams… particularly in the southern US.

Doesn't mean that the trap is the only way to win championships. Just like parking the bus isn't the only strategy a team can employ. To say defense first is the ONLY way to go is flat out wrong and many, many examples fly counter to this.

TFC has to go defense first as it doesn't have the talent (US Domestic core) to play with deeper sides. It can keep results close (-1 GD through 6 games) and sits middle of the table which is great for interest in the team and standings.

But please don't sell me this as the ONLY and most necessary way for the team to play over time.

[molenshtain]

I didn't go back as I'm not writing an article on it just highlighting there is another side of the coin.

That 2012 San Jose example doesn't back up your first point though. San Jose conceded 43 goals that year. Good for 7th in terms of goals against. 2013, same thing with NY. They would have been in a 3 way tie for 6th in terms of goals conceded.

Hockey is similar. "The trap" became very popular as teams found out that by using it, they could keep games closer. Some were successful with it and others weren't. At the end of the day, a team could appear competitive as the results were often close and the standings were congested which was great for ticket sales and interest in the teams… particularly in the southern US.

Doesn't mean that the trap is the only way to win championships. Just like parking the bus isn't the only strategy a team can employ. To say defense first is the ONLY way to go is flat out wrong and many, many examples fly counter to this.

TFC has to go defense first as it doesn't have the talent (US Domestic core) to play with deeper sides. It can keep results close (-1 GD through 6 games) and sits middle of the table which is great for interest in the team and standings.

But please don't sell me this as the ONLY and most necessary way for the team to play over time.


I Agree with all of that. It's not the ONLY way teams can play and It's certainly not necessary all of the time, but it's necessary to be able to play in a defensive manner if the circumstance presents itself where it's the best option, especially if you're a very good team. The Liverpool-Chelsea game on the weekend was a prime example of this. People were reaming out chelsea for playing negative football but what did you want them to do? go out and play a high-line and get eviscerated like every other team has at Anfield this year? It was the smart thing to do. Liverpool probably would have done themselves some favors if they had just given the ball to Chelsea and sat back themselves like Atletico did today.

I'ts it's a little bit, I don't know, entitled of us to start asking for this free-flowing attacking ferguson esc football just because we have some good players now. How about we win some games first, that is what's going to make you happy at the end of the day anyway.

[jabbronies]

Parking the bus isn't the best defensive strategy. It does work at times, but you need a good team to do it who can weather the pressure. Bad teams crack under constant bombardment.

[Marc"2L"]

As they say in wrestling, business is about to pick up.

[2mil4dero+santo]

I posted this in the post game thread, but I think its relevant to this one:

I'm not saying fire Nelsen or anything like that, but he has to shoulder a huge part of the blame for todays performace. Take our back line for instance, these are not terrible players, however the way he has them playing, its a no win situation and when your back line is under continuous pressure and attackers running at you all game, shits gonna go down eventually, thats the law of averages.
For instance, I was taught that the golden rule of defending is NEVER let the attacker turn and run at you with the ball. Something has to be done to teach our back line to compact more and get stuck in. It basics like this that Nelsen has to get his team to improve upon if he wants to be taken seriously as a professional manager.

[T-boy]

I posted this in the post game thread, but I think its relevant to this one:

I'm not saying fire Nelsen or anything like that, but he has to shoulder a huge part of the blame for todays performace. Take our back line for instance, these are not terrible players, however the way he has them playing, its a no win situation and when your back line is under continuous pressure and attackers running at you all game, shits gonna go down eventually, thats the law of averages.
For instance, I was taught that the golden rule of defending is NEVER let the attacker turn and run at you with the ball. Something has to be done to teach our back line to compact more and get stuck in. It basics like this that Nelsen has to get his team to improve upon if he wants to be taken seriously as a professional manager.

Didn't we actually have more possession that NE today? That indicates that the backline wasn't under constant pressure - and I would agree, I don't remember NE swarming all over our defense. The issue today was mistakes by individuals and not finishing off our many many chances. I'm really not sure Nelson, or any coach, can do anything about those things?

[starter]

As they say in wrestling, business is about to pick up.
^He-he-he^

RN encouraged the team to keep possession today against NE. We had 60% of it, but IMO mostly in our own half.
It looked more like an afterthought than a building block, could not really create many opportunities out of our possession advantage.
RN realizes that we need to play with possession effectively to get to the playoffs, but can he as a former defender and rookie coach, organize quality transition and offensive play ?

[2mil4dero+santo]

Didn't we actually have more possession that NE today? That indicates that the backline wasn't under constant pressure - and I would agree, I don't remember NE swarming all over our defense. The issue today was mistakes by individuals and not finishing off our many many chances. I'm really not sure Nelson, or any coach, can do anything about those things?

I'm not sure what possession stats have to do with our back line falling too far back, my point was they need to get tighter and put more pressure on the ball. They're giving too much space and time and I think its an issue Nelsen needs to address.

[Detroit_TFC]

I want Nelsen to succeed. If there is anything I'm sure of, it's replacing our head coach doesn't move things forward. But TL has a massively large stake at risk now, both in players and the stadium deal. His decision making window isn't years long. If he thinks there is a chance of things coming off the rails for this season, he has to deal with it now (-ish).

Today's game didn't cost RN his job, but the next two might.

[Hamilton_Red]

Two problems today... 1) Henry... Gave away two goals. 2) Gilberto... Should have scored 3 goals....

[Abou Sky]

Two problems today... 1) Henry... Gave away two goals. 2) Gilberto... Should have scored 3 goals....

This is so correct that I want to BANG MY FUCKING HEAD OFF MY DESK!!!!

Still not the end of the world, but a former CB should be able to coach Henry to not do that!!!

[Richard]

We are asking too much from Henry to be honest. Its unfair to him that he is the starting CB on this team, defenders need more time to adjust and he clearly needs more seasoning at a lower level. This isnt Europe where a stud CB at 21 can come in and play with sound fundamentals. Henry never had that quality development that even some lower tier leagues have in a competetive reserve or academy league.

Its tough spot for Henry to be in but I think the team needed to bring in another permanet CB to have more cover.

[molenshtain]

We are asking too much from Henry to be honest. Its unfair to him that he is the starting CB on this team, defenders need more time to adjust and he clearly needs more seasoning at a lower level. This isnt Europe where a stud CB at 21 can come in and play with sound fundamentals. Henry never had that quality development that even some lower tier leagues have in a competetive reserve or academy league.

that could have been an excuse early on, seeing as the level of coaching he would have been getting coming into the academy and then very quickly into the first team would not have been up to par with the equivalent level coaching in the States or in Europe. But he's been playing and training with the first team for 5 years and has been essentially a starter for the last 3. Now he has a proper defensive coach with the experience of playing in the WC and so forth. There's no reason why Henry can't continue to develop at this level. Sending him down a division would just impede any progress he's making right now.

[burlington Red]

you are right, we are asking to much of Henry. Asking a professional footballer to pass the ball to someone in your team is ludicrous. Asking someone to block the ball with your hand in penalty box and to continously hoof ther ball 50 yards to the other team is taxing. Poor lad must be stressed to the max.
By way Henry's dire perfromance is deflecting a lot of criticism that should be going Caldwell's way, his distribution yesterday was awful.

[Richard]

you are right, we are asking to much of Henry. Asking a professional footballer to pass the ball to someone in your team is ludicrous. Asking someone to block the ball with your hand in penalty box and to continously hoof ther ball 50 yards to the other team is taxing. Poor lad must be stressed to the max.


Not sure if you are sarcastic but don't get me wrong, I 100% agree with you.

I'm just looking at the reality of the situation where the development in NA is piss poor. Given the circumstances we shouldn't expect professionals to do the basics in this country.