Atlanta Awarded Next Expansion Team

[OgtheDim]

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/thegoalkeeper/Atlanta-confirmed-as-Major-League-Soccers-next-expansion-market.html

http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/pro-sports/mls-is-coming-to-atlanta/nfSzm/

Another turf field non-soccer specific stadium shared with an NFL team. Lowered roof will help with sound but this is going to take some work to develop.

[james]

Don't know if I like the sounds of the way things are going. They might be moving to fast.

First how many teams does MLS plan to have?

Another issue is are they jumping to early into markets that do not have proper stadium plans for a MLS size stadium? Yes Seattle has done well in the Seahwaks stadium, they have sold over 35k a year. Vancouver has done well by selling out the bottom deck of BC Place and hiding the upper deck. This does not mean it will continue to work forever tho. There was loads of NFL stadiums that looked bad in MLS and we have finally got rid of most of them. Yet we seem to be bringing them back? Not many teams can sell more then 17k-23k range. Atlanta stadium could easily look like shit if the stadium isn't full. New England stadium perfect example of nice stadium, but it looks ugly for soccer, and it needs to go. And New York also just got a new team, but seem to have no solid ground of where they might play. They have had some issues getting to build a stadium in Queens right in the area where the Mets play. They are now also looking to play next to Yankee stadium instead if they can use City park space, something that may also have major issues. They currently look like they will play at Yankee stadium for the first few years (and maybe longer if they ever get space in NYC to build the dam stadium, New York has very limited space, and Mets and Yankee stadium areas are probably the only options they have).

Im just getting a little worried with some of these new stadiums, maybe they should slow down and only grant cities a team that have future plans to get a stadium built for MLS size. Atlanta has shown in other sports a tough market to sell tickets, and I don't like the idea of MLS teams going back into NFL stadium markets with no plans to move out in the future.

[C.Ronaldo]

silliness!

[Pint]

Stadium is too big, Field turf is shit... another non soccer stadium being brought into the league.

[ManUtd4ever]

No issues with the rapid growth rate of the league, as the demographics in the USA can support it. The admission of non soccer specific stadia however is another story, and could be detrimental to the longevity of those franchises.

[Carts]

Remember when the Don stated that he wanted all teams in Soccer Specific Stadiums...?

They've just tossed that out the window...

Field turf, bed sheets hiding empty seats, NFL lines on pitches = BUSH LEAGUE!

Carts...

[jaahuuu]

No issues with the rapid growth rate of the league, as the demographics in the USA can support it. The admission of non soccer specific stadia however is another story, and could be detrimental to the longevity of those franchises.
In the USA, yes, but I'm not sure about Atlanta. The city has lost 2 NHL teams, 2 NASL teams, and the Braves are moving to the suburbs in a few years. Their MLB/NHL/NFL/NBA teams have 1 championship out of over 150 combined seasons.
Good luck to anybody that want to spend their money putting a franchise there.

[Detroit_TFC]

Seeing more board room thinking than game day thinking behind a lot of these current moves by MLS.

Personally I think a team can work almost anywhere if you do it right. But there's not much of this Atlanta stuff coming down in a way that I would say is a product of "doing it right."

[james]

In the USA, yes, but I'm not sure about Atlanta. The city has lost 2 NHL teams, 2 NASL teams, and the Braves are moving to the suburbs in a few years. Their MLB/NHL/NFL/NBA teams have 1 championship out of over 150 combined seasons.
Good luck to anybody that want to spend their money putting a franchise there.

I think every single team Atlanta has had a rather hard time selling tickets in one way or another over the passed decade. All it seems to take is a losing season and attendance drops poorly. That said it doesn't mean a soccer team won't do well, but I think if you take a gamble like this, playing in a massive NFL stadium in a city like Atlanta you should make sure they at least got a Specific size soccer stadium in the plans. In that case if you have a 20k stadium even if they draw around 15k fans it still does not look that bad. Now having 15k fans in a 60-70,000 seat stadium it will bring MLS back into the bush league status.

I think any team in the south is a gamble, and none of them should get a team without a MLS size stadium. Atlanta is not Seattle, and there stadium will not be like BC Place where the whitecaps play, and they are not like New York City, a city that is at least hoping to get some deal done to build a new stadium in a city where if they get it built the rewards for the league will mostly likely be huge in a market that size. I think this will be a fail if they go for Atlanta in this NFL stadium.

[Yohan]

Blame Vancouver and Seattle for getting MLS FO thinking reduced configuration in a football stadium can work (and TBF, there is a case that this might work elsewhere)

[ensco]

Blame Vancouver and Seattle for getting MLS FO thinking reduced configuration in a football stadium can work (and TBF, there is a case that this might work elsewhere)

It's more than that. Location is becoming the key element.

SSSs are failures all over the league, they wind up deep in the suburbs (Dallas, Denver, Columbus, Chicago, even LA and NY have been pretty tough in terms of attendance). The only real SSS successes are at SKC and here at BMO, both of which are pretty central.

You need to be in the center city, which in bigger MSAs means multi-use, because the real estate is just too valuable to sit unused a lot.

[Initial B]

I see this as a continuing trend, similar to what's going to happen to BMO. Businesses want to maximize the utilization of their assets. You will have better profit margins by combining two sports into one facility than building two facilities, one for each sport. Who cares about esthetics? The best Atlanta supporters can hope for is that they go the Hybrid Grass route with double the number of synthetic fibres per inch.

[Redcoe15]

Blame Vancouver and Seattle for getting MLS FO thinking reduced configuration in a football stadium can work (and TBF, there is a case that this might work elsewhere)
If I remember correctly, the Whitecaps wanted to build a downtown SSS paid for out of their own pockets and not the taxpayers. But the city wouldn't give them the land for the stadium so they ended up settling for a refurbished BC Place with the CFL Lions.

But yeah, MLS teams need their own stadiums, and not some shared facility with a pro football team. Seattle shouldn't have gotten theirs without one, but they lucked out with the crowds they've drawn there. Atlanta is no Seattle, by any stretch. Trying to sell soccer tickets in a stadium designed first for an NFL team in a city with a horrendous reputation as a sports town is going to prove embarassing in the long run.

[Yohan]

I don't think Arthur Blank is a stupid billionaire, and he's not paying 70mil expansion fee (or more) and lobbied 6+ yrs (if stories are true) for an MLS expansion team.

Every city is different, and depends on marketing, organic supporters movement, any city can support an MLS franchise. (apparently 220+ paid members in Terminus Legion already) And Atlanta has 3 years to get ready for MLS.

I'm taking a wait and see look.

[OgtheDim]

Frank Blake is 71 and far from stupid. But I just read this and kinda wonder:

"Blank said he met his girlfriend, Angela Macuga, when their sons were playing on the same soccer team.

“It’s a love rooted in soccer,” Blank said.

In early February, Blank and Macuga became engaged — two years after their first date."

In 10 years, when the team has been around for 7, and he's into his 80's, who's going to have a passion for that franchise to succeed? One of his 6 kids from his other marriages?

[Doucet3]

I'm actually excited to see Atlanta getting a MLS team I was rooting for then vs a 3rd Cali or Texas team... Not stoked on the half empty looking field or the turf at all, although it they can do what the caps are doing and do a hybrid type grass and no lines I think it'll work. They have to put the silverbacks in there rebrand potentially

[SoccMan2]

It looks like they will be doing what B.C. Place does for the Caps in the new Atlanta stadium giving the stadium a more intimate feel to it for Atlanta MLS games which will be fine as long as they fill most of the seats available for soccer, however, I hope they install a form of natural grass and not a pure artificial turf. Furthermore, we need to add Real Salt lake's SSS and Philadelphia's SSS to successful SSS stadiums and Montreal's SSS too.

[james]

It's more than that. Location is becoming the key element.

SSSs are failures all over the league, they wind up deep in the suburbs (Dallas, Denver, Columbus, Chicago, even LA and NY have been pretty tough in terms of attendance). The only real SSS successes are at SKC and here at BMO, both of which are pretty central.

You need to be in the center city, which in bigger MSAs means multi-use, because the real estate is just too valuable to sit unused a lot.

I just checked on google map because I was curious where the Sporting park in Kansas is....it is nothing like BMO field. It is way out of downtown kansas city. It looks like its not even in Kansas City, it gets really rural in that area. If that was Toronto it probably wouldn
t be in city limits, Kansas City just happens to include massive land area of 826 sq. km, compared to Toronto 630 sq km.

There are other inner city SSS's tho. You also have Houston in downtown, and Montreal rather near downtown Montreal on the subway line. And then there is Portland, it wasn't originally built for soccer, but it was renovated for soccer, and it to is downtown. Vancouver, Seattle and DC United being downtown but they were never originally built for soccer. Columbus not in the downtown core, but are within city limits, probably not to different then Kansas City, maybe even closer then that. You are right tho all the other teams are not really in cities, Dallas being probably the furthest out, way out of Dallas, way in bum town no where. New England probably just behind that.

That said in some cases in USA cities there is more life in the suburbs then in inner cities. There is a lot of cities in USA that are in major decline, lots of boarded up buildings and the inner cities can be rather ghost towns and no go areas after dark. I don't know to much about Atlanta, so not sure what its downtown core is like, but I know there is some really bad areas in the city you wouldn't want to go. How close to the downtown that is I don't really know. But point is some USA cities are better off in the suburbs, in Canada though you for sure would want a team smack dab in the downtown core.

[Cashcleaner]

Atlanta was always a potential market in the running for an MLS franchise for several years now, so I'm not in the least bit shocked with this news. That said, I think I share a bit of the disappointment in the fact that there are no plans as of yet to build a soccer-specific facility for the future club. It's crazy how an SSS used to be a very unflexing stipulation that the league had mandated for new franchises, but I guess all it took was Seattle to dictate their terms to Garber and the league board and now here we are.

It's actually not that big of a letdown though, as the new Atlanta stadium they're building in 2015 was designed with soccer in mind and I'd imagine a hybrid turf for the playing surface is a possibility.

Deadspin Reports: Atlanta Is Up Next For An MLS Team (http://deadspin.com/reports-atlanta-likely-to-get-an-mls-team-1307409821)

Aside from that, Atlanta is a very appealing market for soccer. The Silverbacks get respectable crowds for the NASL and the whole Atlanta/Northern Georgia area has a population of about 5.5 million. Compare that to Salt Lake City which has a local population of just over a million or Denver/Commerce City which has about 2.5 million people.

By the way, I've seen a couple crests ideas some people have created which look pretty cool. This one in particular sticks out the most in my mind:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4EuLE0P9gO0/UnMD1u8RQ6I/AAAAAAAAAm8/UA8J7Moj0uE/s320/LOGO1Dsmall.png

[GuelphStorm2007]

Atlanta is maybe the worst Sports town in the USA all there franchises have always had trouble with attendance hell they have lost 2 NHL clubs the Braves are leaving for the Burbs and the Hawks are drawing flies I cannot see MLS working. there has to be way better Markets out there like St Louis, San Antonio, San Diego and Minneapolis.

[GuelphStorm2007]

I just checked on google map because I was curious where the Sporting park in Kansas is....it is nothing like BMO field. It is way out of downtown kansas city. It looks like its not even in Kansas City, it gets really rural in that area. If that was Toronto it probably wouldn
t be in city limits, Kansas City just happens to include massive land area of 826 sq. km, compared to Toronto 630 sq km.

There are other inner city SSS's tho. You also have Houston in downtown, and Montreal rather near downtown Montreal on the subway line. And then there is Portland, it wasn't originally built for soccer, but it was renovated for soccer, and it to is downtown. Vancouver, Seattle and DC United being downtown but they were never originally built for soccer. Columbus not in the downtown core, but are within city limits, probably not to different then Kansas City, maybe even closer then that. You are right tho all the other teams are not really in cities, Dallas being probably the furthest out, way out of Dallas, way in bum town no where. New England probably just behind that.

That said in some cases in USA cities there is more life in the suburbs then in inner cities. There is a lot of cities in USA that are in major decline, lots of boarded up buildings and the inner cities can be rather ghost towns and no go areas after dark. I don't know to much about Atlanta, so not sure what its downtown core is like, but I know there is some really bad areas in the city you wouldn't want to go. How close to the downtown that is I don't really know. But point is some USA cities are better off in the suburbs, in Canada though you for sure would want a team smack dab in the downtown core.


If I am not mistaken I think Sporting Park is Located just across the road form the Speedway in Kansas City Kansas

[Cashcleaner]

Atlanta is maybe the worst Sports town in the USA all there franchises have always had trouble with attendance hell they have lost 2 NHL clubs the Braves are leaving for the Burbs and the Hawks are drawing flies I cannot see MLS working. there has to be way better Markets out there like St Louis, San Antonio, San Diego and Minneapolis.

The Flacons get pretty good numbers, though. Last year they saw crowds of just over 70,000 which is higher than the league's average. The Braves get above league average attendance as well (31,000). I think it's really just their indoor teams that have failed to draw big crowds.


If I am not mistaken I think Sporting Park is Located just across the road form the Speedway in Kansas City Kansas

Yeah, Sporting Park is on KC's periphery, but anyone who's visited knows that the whole area is given over to recreational uses. Like you said, there's the Speedway; but there's also the KC Legends Centre which is a MASSIVE shopping and entertainment complex. It's got an metric assload of bars and restaurants, as well as a theatre, arcade, and a few clubs as well. For being relatively far from KC's downtown the place does get a lot of traffic. And that probably helps explain why KC does get above average attendance for MLS as well.

[ensco]

I just checked on google map because I was curious where the Sporting park in Kansas is....it is nothing like BMO field. It is way out of downtown kansas city. It looks like its not even in Kansas City, it gets really rural in that area. If that was Toronto it probably wouldn
t be in city limits, Kansas City just happens to include massive land area of 826 sq. km, compared to Toronto 630 sq km.


Sorry but this is lame.

Google maps is not the way to understand how people perceive the geographies of American cities. The center of gravity has nothing to do with the historic downtowns.

[maninb]

Atlanta is maybe the worst Sports town in the USA all there franchises have always had trouble with attendance hell they have lost 2 NHL clubs the Braves are leaving for the Burbs and the Hawks are drawing flies I cannot see MLS working. there has to be way better Markets out there like St Louis, San Antonio, San Diego and Minneapolis.

100% Agreed...Atlanta always has been as TERRIBLE sports city...Even the NFL drew HORRIBLE crowds when the team was bad

[C.Ronaldo]

Sorry but this is lame.

Google maps is not the way to understand how people perceive the geographies of American cities. The center of gravity has nothing to do with the historic downtowns.

but it is how so many north american cities have so much sprawl. Atlanta has the most sprawl out of all north american cities from what i remember.

However, this is not the best way to determine if a sports team will succeed

[ensco]

but it is how so many american cities have so much sprawl

There are a long list of reasons. Love of the car, race politics, decades of pandering to real estate and development interests, lack of awareness of value of neighbourhoods.

This book is as good a place as any to start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_and_Life_of_Great_American_Cities

[C.Ronaldo]

Atlanta is maybe the worst Sports town in the USA all there franchises have always had trouble with attendance hell they have lost 2 NHL clubs the Braves are leaving for the Burbs and the Hawks are drawing flies I cannot see MLS working. there has to be way better Markets out there like St Louis, San Antonio, San Diego and Minneapolis.

San Antonio would be the best away trip possible

[james]

Sorry but this is lame.

Google maps is not the way to understand how people perceive the geographies of American cities. The center of gravity has nothing to do with the historic downtowns.


um what the hell are you talking about, lol. Point is it is not in Kansas City downtown. It is not like BMO field closeness to center of Toronto.

[james]

but it is how so many north american cities have so much sprawl. Atlanta has the most sprawl out of all north american cities from what i remember.

However, this is not the best way to determine if a sports team will succeed

Yeah you are right there. So many cities in USA are actually not that big. There is many factors to look into when moving a team into a location, but sprawl could have some effects. Some cities appear on paper to be these major massive cities, but really they aren't quite so big. Sometimes populations are including massive land areas of rural and suburbs as still city or metro populations, but they can be hours away. Some people would drive far distances to a game, but majority of your regular fan base with season tickets exc. will most likely come from closer distances to the stadium, and the population within the closeness to the stadium may be a lot smaller then the overall population may look like.

[ensco]

um what the hell are you talking about, lol. Point is it is not in Kansas City downtown. It is not like BMO field closeness to center of Toronto.

It's not the right point. Question is whether an SSS works if it isn't easy for lots of people to get to. Sometimes that's "downtown", but in many US cities it isn't.

[james]

It's not the right point. Question is whether an SSS works if it isn't easy for lots of people to get to. Sometimes that's "downtown", but in many US cities it isn't.

this started from your first post. you said there was only 2 teams with Specific Soccer Stadiums that are near the central city center. But they aren't the only ones in and near downtown that are doing well, and Kansas City actually isn't one of them in the city downtown center. If you get in a cab and asked to go downtown Kansas City you would not end up anywhere near Sporting stadium. You can call it a entertainment center, a mall district, a speedway, whatever, but downtown it is not tho, its a rather suburban/rural area, lots of open space and wide roads. Anyways I don't even know why we arguing , whatever man.

[ensco]

this started from your first post. you said there was only 2 teams with Specific Soccer Stadiums that are near the central city center. But they aren't the only ones in and near downtown that are doing well, and Kansas City actually isn't one of them in the city downtown center. If you get in a cab and asked to go downtown Kansas City you would not end up anywhere near Sporting stadium. You can call it a entertainment center, a mall district, a speedway, whatever, but downtown it is not tho, its a rather suburban/rural area, lots of open space and wide roads. Anyways I don't even know why we arguing , whatever man.

Yeah you're right. I see your point.

[OgtheDim]

The Flacons get pretty good numbers, though. Last year they saw crowds of just over 70,000 which is higher than the league's average. ....l.

College football is king in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina & Tennessee. The SEC is bigger then the NFL around there. Nascar 3rd and then College basketball.

I don't see this move working at all. San Antonio would have been a better deal - MLS going for the $.

[james]

Well the question I wonder is why rush a team into a city that is a gamble when there are probably other cities that would be willing to look to build a soccer stadium if they could get a MLS team. Is Atlanta market really that important to the league? I know people say oh its a big hub, big population, blah blah. But truth is it's not really that big, massive sprawl. And does the league really need them? MLS cities have shown smaller cities that are well planned out can support a team just as good and some cases better then the bigger cities. I think they really should hold out on Atlanta unless they are willing to look for the future to build a new smaller stadium. I could see the importance of trying to get into the New York City Market, but Atlanta? I just don't think it would have to much of an effect on MLS one way or another.

[Gazza_55]

MLS would be getting the same $ from San Antonio as it will from Atlanta.

Blank will be a great MLS owner. He has done is homework and he's a big supporter of US Soccer.

[Yohan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6Sgl6vzi8

[james]

MLS would be getting the same $ from San Antonio as it will from Atlanta.

Blank will be a great MLS owner. He has done is homework and he's a big supporter of US Soccer.

but San Antonio were looking to build a soccer stadium were they not?? because if so San Antonio should win everyday over Atlanta.

I don't know blank, but does he really know soccer? difference between team USA, and club football. Does he know MLS, does he know Europe soccer leagues? these are just questions, they would be things you would like him to know all about.

[Yohan]

but San Antonio were looking to build a soccer stadium were they not?? because if so San Antonio should win everyday over Atlanta.

I don't know blank, but does he really know soccer? difference between team USA, and club football. Does he know MLS, does he know Europe soccer leagues? these are just questions, they would be things you would like him to know all about.
San Antonio already has a SSS.

[Gazza_55]

but San Antonio were looking to build a soccer stadium were they not?? because if so San Antonio should win everyday over Atlanta.

I don't know blank, but does he really know soccer? difference between team USA, and club football. Does he know MLS, does he know Europe soccer leagues? these are just questions, they would be things you would like him to know all about.

San Antonio already has a soccer stadium. Blank has been trying to get an MLS team for 7 years. Home Depot has been a big sponsor of the league for a long time. Does the owner in San Antonio really know soccer? How much did MLSE know about soccer? The moneymen in Seattle? Real Salt Lake?
Blank has a son who plays at an elite level. He sponsors a 'Soccer for Success' foundation for Atlanta Youth.

[james]

]San Antonio already has a soccer stadium[/B]. Blank has been trying to get an MLS team for 7 years. Home Depot has been a big sponsor of the league for a long time. Does the owner in San Antonio really know soccer? How much did MLSE know about soccer? The moneymen in Seattle? Real Salt Lake?
Blank has a son who plays at an elite level. He sponsors a 'Soccer for Success' foundation for Atlanta Youth.

Wow and yet Atlanta gets a team instead? I think that's moving backwards. Getting a SSS use to be a vital part of getting a MLS team. Don't like this move. I don't care how long it has taken, in that whole time Atlanta never got a soccer stadium built.

[Yohan]

Wow and yet Atlanta gets a team instead? I think that's moving backwards. Getting a SSS use to be a vital part of getting a MLS team. Don't like this move. I don't care how long it has taken, in that whole time Atlanta never got a soccer stadium built.
if you look at history of MLS expansion since Toronto, having a SSS is a nice to have, not a must.

[Yohan]

http://stoppagetimesoccer.net/2014/04/arthur-blank-atlanta-final-stages-landing-mls-franchise/#21sZBUgOJvXiZZ6i.99

[Cashcleaner]

but San Antonio were looking to build a soccer stadium were they not?? because if so San Antonio should win everyday over Atlanta.

I don't know blank, but does he really know soccer? difference between team USA, and club football. Does he know MLS, does he know Europe soccer leagues? these are just questions, they would be things you would like him to know all about.

Blank probably isn't what you would label a "soccer guy", but he is definitely an all-round "sports guy".

Obviously, he owns 90% of the Falcon and showed interest in buying the Braves a few times in the past, but we gotta remember he's shown an interest in MLS and soccer in general for quite some time now. During the early stages of designing the new Atlanta stadium he even went so far as to ensure soccer could be accommodated; not just because he figured he might want to see an MLS team play out of the venue, but also to host national team matches and possibly collaborate on a future World Cup bid regardless of a local franchise or not.

Honestly, digging deeper into articles and profiles about him online, I think this guy could potentially be a very good owner. He's philanthropy works also involve a lot of youth sports programs which is cool.

[james]

if you look at history of MLS expansion since Toronto, having a SSS is a nice to have, not a must.

yes and no. I believe some teams since 2007 in MLS only got a team because they showed they would build a Soccer stadium. I mean Montreal and Philly showed they would get a soccer stadium built, I not so sure they would of ever got a team otherwise. Portland also showed they would renovate a old ball park into a soccer stadium and were rewarded a team. Vancouver originally showed they would build a soccer stadium, that got turned down and instead they went with the renovation of BC Place (was that after Vancouver was already rewarded a team?). Seattle might have been the only team that never had plans to build a soccer stadium.

Anyways I feel just because Vancouver and Seattle have gone the old way of using NFL/CFL Stadiums as MLS (yes granted they look better then they use to in MLS) I still don't think its the way MLS should go. I think they had it right when they said Soccer Specific Stadiums is they way to go for future teams. I think its stupid going back on that now, at a time when we have plenty of teams and I don't see the rush that we need them in the league so fast.

[Yohan]

yes and no. I believe some teams since 2007 in MLS only got a team because they showed they would build a Soccer stadium. I mean Montreal and Philly showed they would get a soccer stadium built, I not so sure they would of ever got a team otherwise. Portland also showed they would renovate a old ball park into a soccer stadium and were rewarded a team. Vancouver originally showed they would build a soccer stadium, that got turned down and instead they went with the renovation of BC Place (was that after Vancouver was already rewarded a team?). Seattle might have been the only team that never had plans to build a soccer stadium.

Anyways I feel just because Vancouver and Seattle have gone the old way of using NFL/CFL Stadiums as MLS (yes granted they look better then they use to in MLS) I still don't think its the way MLS should go. I think they had it right when they said Soccer Specific Stadiums is they way to go for future teams. I think its stupid going back on that now, at a time when we have plenty of teams and I don't see the rush that we need them in the league so fast.
I'm all for SSS, but economically, SSS don't make sense for local govts. It's not impossible, but it's becoming very hard to get prime land for just SSS. (see blowback on new DCU stadium)
Even if there is going to be no public money involved for actual building of the SSS, the land is worth so much that the city is likely going to loath using it for SSS.

Hence why most new SSS are in suburbs (where the local govt want any business basically), or either multipurpose stadium or SSS sharing with another sports. (IE, Houston with college pointyball) I don't even know how NYCFC is going to get new land to build a SSS in NYC proper. And SSS in suburbs are having severe problem making it easy for fans to get to the stadium.

Although it depends on city to city, generally, you want a piece of land that has high traffic, high population density and good public transit, and those lands are generally in the city

[james]

I'm all for SSS, but economically, SSS don't make sense for local govts. It's not impossible, but it's becoming very hard to get prime land for just SSS. (see blowback on new DCU stadium)
Even if there is going to be no public money involved for actual building of the SSS, the land is worth so much that the city is likely going to loath using it for SSS.

Hence why most new SSS are in suburbs (where the local govt want any business basically), or either multipurpose stadium or SSS sharing with another sports. (IE, Houston with college pointyball) I don't even know how NYCFC is going to get new land to build a SSS in NYC proper. And SSS in suburbs are having severe problem making it easy for fans to get to the stadium.

Although it depends on city to city, generally, you want a piece of land that has high traffic, high population density and good public transit, and those lands are generally in the city

I agree, but they recently built a downtown Houston stadium,a Kansas City stadium on the outter edges of the city. San Jose are building a stadium now and Miami, Tampa (or was that orlando?) and New York City are all talking about building a new soccer stadium. So its not like it can not be done....so why does Atlanta get a pass on a SSS is my question? also someone mentioned Atlanta might be building the NFL stadium in the suburbs anyways?? so they get no location benefit from playing at the Falcons stadium, just save money on building a 2nd stadium is all but other teams got to do it.

[Yohan]

I agree, but they recently built a downtown Houston stadium,a Kansas City stadium on the outter edges of the city. San Jose are building a stadium now and Miami, Tampa (or was that orlando?) and New York City are all talking about building a new soccer stadium. So its not like it can not be done....so why does Atlanta get a pass on a SSS is my question? also someone mentioned Atlanta might be building the NFL stadium in the suburbs anyways?? so they get no location benefit from playing at the Falcons stadium, just save money on building a 2nd stadium is all but other teams got to do it.
if you really want to know, read this thread

http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/tannenwald-atlanta-in-as-22.2002924/

[james]

if you really want to know, read this thread

http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/tannenwald-atlanta-in-as-22.2002924/


thanks, to much read all tho. From a rather quick glance a lot of people along with me are a bit on edge with this move and a lot of people uneasy on where MLS future is going with new franchises and uncertain future stadiums.

[GuelphStorm2007]

I think MLS is trying to secure there place in the U.S. Southeast along with Miami and Orlando but man there is a lot of competion out there for the mighty sport dollar you are in the heart SEC Country down there and also Nascar country. And again Atlanta IS NOT A GREAT SPORTS TOWN , It still boggles my mind how they got the Olympics ans even that was disorganised mess.

[Mark in Ottawa]

Blank probably isn't what you would label a "soccer guy", but he is definitely an all-round "sports guy". .
More importantly he is a "money guy".
The kind of owner that MLS is looking for ... more and more.

[Gazza_55]

I agree, but they recently built a downtown Houston stadium,a Kansas City stadium on the outter edges of the city. San Jose are building a stadium now and Miami, Tampa (or was that orlando?) and New York City are all talking about building a new soccer stadium. So its not like it can not be done....so why does Atlanta get a pass on a SSS is my question? also someone mentioned Atlanta might be building the NFL stadium in the suburbs anyways?? so they get no location benefit from playing at the Falcons stadium, just save money on building a 2nd stadium is all but other teams got to do it.

The stadium they are building is a $1 billion retractable roof stadium in downtown Atlanta. The Braves are moving from downtown to the suburbs. In 2017 the stadium will be just as much for soccer as it is for the NFL team. Arthur Blank will own both teams and the MLS side will control all the gameday revenue for 20 home matches. In 2004/2005 they hired the former GM from Columbus as a VP with a view to this move. They have been to KC, Toronto, Portland, NJ and Seattle many times in the last 2 years seeing what works and doesn't work (something the guys at NYCFC and Orlando have also done to their credit). Not sure you want to hear this but Seattle is a Soccer Stadium. I've had season tickets since the MLS Sounders were born. The only issue with it is the turf and that will be rectified in 4 or 5 years. My guess is after we get our renov at BMO Feild with the roof and hybrid grass/turf Atlanta will OPEN their new stadium with it. But that's just a guess.

You said that San Antonio is underfunded. I think the guy in San Antonio has money but not the $ he needs to invest hundreds of millions to take the league where it wants to go. We always are saying the cap needs to be raised significantly ($5m - $10m) in the next CBA - well where do we think this money is going to come from?

[greatwhitenorf]

yes and no. I believe some teams since 2007 in MLS only got a team because they showed they would build a Soccer stadium. I mean Montreal and Philly showed they would get a soccer stadium built, I not so sure they would of ever got a team otherwise. Portland also showed they would renovate a old ball park into a soccer stadium and were rewarded a team. Vancouver originally showed they would build a soccer stadium, that got turned down and instead they went with the renovation of BC Place (was that after Vancouver was already rewarded a team?). Seattle might have been the only team that never had plans to build a soccer stadium.

Anyways I feel just because Vancouver and Seattle have gone the old way of using NFL/CFL Stadiums as MLS (yes granted they look better then they use to in MLS) I still don't think its the way MLS should go. I think they had it right when they said Soccer Specific Stadiums is they way to go for future teams. I think its stupid going back on that now, at a time when we have plenty of teams and I don't see the rush that we need them in the league so fast.

I've heard from friends in Vancouver that the Whitecaps parked their Gastown stadium plans for the time being but have not given up on them. They moved into the dome to play nice and score political points that they'll need in future. In order to build the stadium, a great deal of transportation infrastructure - rail, roads, ferries - would be affected. The stadium itself would be sit on a raised platform built above rail lines. Ferry docks would need to be re-located.

But since so much money and political resources went into re-furbishing the dome, pressure was put on the Caps to play there in the short term, just to get revenue back to help pay down some debt to more manageable levels. When that 'tithing' process is complete, the new stadium plans will be re-addressed. There's a lot of agreement that it's a great location in terms of transportation and generating business for the surrounding area.

MLS were likely well aware of the long-term goals of the club and prepared to tolerate a shared stadium arrangement when they accepted the Whitecaps bid to join.

[Yohan]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bk9m7TrCAAAZTyd.jpg

[OgtheDim]

Lalas as President?

[greatwhitenorf]

Ha ha! Or grooming consultant.

For those who debate the choice of Atlanta over San Antone(great track by White Cowbell, btw), consider this if you are Don Garber.

MLS already has Texas-based franchises in America's fifth largest market(Dallas) and 10th largest market(Houston). They could add another Texas franchise in the nation's 37th largest market(San Antone) or they could work with billionaire Arthur Blank, owner of the Atlanta Falcons, and move into a new, state of the art stadium in the heart of America's eighth-largest market in Atlanta, a keystone city for any southeast expansion and a huge corporate hub.

No flippin' brainer, IMHO.

[FluSH]

Fuck there goes the league... ATL land of strippers and guns!

[Cashcleaner]

Ha ha! Or grooming consultant.

For those who debate the choice of Atlanta over San Antone(great track by White Cowbell, btw), consider this if you are Don Garber.

MLS already has Texas-based franchises in America's fifth largest market(Dallas) and 10th largest market(Houston). They could add another Texas franchise in the nation's 37th largest market(San Antone) or they could work with billionaire Arthur Blank, owner of the Atlanta Falcons, and move into a new, state of the art stadium in the heart of America's eighth-largest market in Atlanta, a keystone city for any southeast expansion and a huge corporate hub.

No flippin' brainer, IMHO.

I'm wondering if there are any sort of territorial rules in MLS like there are for other leagues? There is a fair bit of distance between the three cities and Texas is the second-most populated state in the US, but could MLS have already decided that two franchises is enough for the state?

[LFC8]

Lets just add another 20 teams and water down this league even more.....

[nascarguy]

Fuck there goes the league... ATL land of strippers and guns!
now there a song

[nascarguy]

so what two teams move in to the west table.

[Yohan]

I'm wondering if there are any sort of territorial rules in MLS like there are for other leagues? There is a fair bit of distance between the three cities and Texas is the second-most populated state in the US, but could MLS have already decided that two franchises is enough for the state?
MLS is all about rivalries. No territorial rules except one for youth recruiting.

[james]

Ha ha! Or grooming consultant.

For those who debate the choice of Atlanta over San Antone(great track by White Cowbell, btw), consider this if you are Don Garber.

MLS already has Texas-based franchises in America's fifth largest market(Dallas) and 10th largest market(Houston). They could add another Texas franchise in the nation's 37th largest market(San Antone) or they could work with billionaire Arthur Blank, owner of the Atlanta Falcons, and move into a new, state of the art stadium in the heart of America's eighth-largest market in Atlanta, a keystone city for any southeast expansion and a huge corporate hub.

No flippin' brainer, IMHO.

Atlanta city on its own actually isn't that big, population is only 443,000. If you count the metro area that covers a rather large distance of land, then yes it is 9th biggest. But according to stats San Antonio 1.3 million or counting by metro it is 25th largest, only 1 spot behind 24th biggest Portland. And still ahead of Columbus, Kansas and Salt Lake. And smaller teams have shown the league that they can sell out stadiums. Atlanta on the other hand has shown in some of there other sports that tickets can be hard to sell in the city of Atlanta and don't got the greatest attendance record. However does any of this mean Atlanta will or will not fail, no. Its hard to say really, and it is not surprising that MLS would at least try to go to the bigger cities, I mean more people should equal more fans. Makes sense. Things just don't always work out that way. I think a lot of people just don't think the South is the best market for a Soccer team. But who knows maybe they could surprise us all!

[OgtheDim]

so what two teams move in to the west table.

Houston and KC.

[Initial B]

Atlanta city on its own actually isn't that big, population is only 443,000. If you count the metro area that covers a rather large distance of land, then yes it is 9th biggest. But according to stats San Antonio 1.3 million or counting by metro it is 25th largest, only 1 spot behind 24th biggest Portland. And still ahead of Columbus, Kansas and Salt Lake. And smaller teams have shown the league that they can sell out stadiums. Atlanta on the other hand has shown in some of there other sports that tickets can be hard to sell in the city of Atlanta and don't got the greatest attendance record. However does any of this mean Atlanta will or will not fail, no. Its hard to say really, and it is not surprising that MLS would at least try to go to the bigger cities, I mean more people should equal more fans. Makes sense. Things just don't always work out that way. I think a lot of people just don't think the South is the best market for a Soccer team. But who knows maybe they could surprise us all! They're not looking at the market for spectators. MLS is looking at TV markets and that all-important revenue stream that will mean greater profits/accelerated growth in the long term.

[ag futbol]

They're not looking at the market for spectators. MLS is looking at TV markets and that all-important revenue stream that will mean greater profits/accelerated growth in the long term.
That's what the NHL said too, except they forgot that just because hockey exists in key markets, doesn't mean anyone is interested in hockey in key markets. They are now left with multiple dead-weight teams because their zeal for a TV deal blinded them to the fact that they were expanding to places where interest in hockey is extremely limited. Their TV coverage is up and down, they are far from a ratings success south of the border. I'm not saying soccer necessarily faces the same challenges, but doing things for the sake of a TV deal, while ignoring underlying market conditions, is fool hardy.

Personally, I always thought NASCAR provided a better example. They were regional for a long time, but didn't give a shit because they had huge market penetration and draw to the point where they commanded interest elsewhere and demanded TV dollars. This should tell something to MLS. For a lot of people, their interest in this league is cursory. They couldn't tell you who is playing well, who the best players are, or what's happening around the league. They view their team in isolation, go watch for the live experience, and that's the extent of it. MLS is going to have to convert these people to more ardent fans if they are ever going to draw on TV. A lot of work needs to be done in this department.

[Redcoe15]

Someone should ask Stephen Brunt if he thinks putting an MLS team in Atlanta is a good idea.

[Brooker]

Atlanta? Really? How underwhelming.

[kodiakTFC]

Atlanta? Really? How underwhelming.

It makes sense. Atlanta is a huge TV market and really the last major market MLS isn't in or is about to enter. There is some evidence of D2 success with the Silverbacks, Blank is ridiculously wealthy and the new stadium is downtown with a secondary roof that lower for a more 'intense' atmosphere are soccer games. I've been following this for awhile and honestly I think this decision was likely made 3 years ago. We went from zero teams in the South East to three! That's pretty crazy.

Minnesota will be 24.

[ryan]

I'm going to wager that Atlanta as a franchise is "mid rate" at it's very best when it comes to support and revenue. I don't believe in that city's sporting support what so ever.

[Initial B]

Minnesota will be 24.
Agreed. That will give MLS the upper Mid-West presence they are craving and they'll then be in 15 of the top 20 TV markets in the US. The question is: will they stop there? They could easily add another 3 teams, realign into three 9-team divisions, and still play a 34 game schedule.

[kodiakTFC]

I'm going to wager that Atlanta as a franchise is "mid rate" at it's very best when it comes to support and revenue. I don't believe in that city's sporting support what so ever.

Can't argue with that. I see it being a run of the mill average supported team.


Agreed. That will give MLS the upper Mid-West presence they are craving and they'll then be in 15 of the top 20 TV markets in the US. The question is: will they stop there? They could easily add another 3 teams, realign into three 9-team divisions, and still play a 34 game schedule.

My guess is they stop at 24 for a few years in order to stabilize and switch their focus from new markets to solidifying the few that are in desperate need of a kick in the butt. Boston, DC and Chivas (the first) all need to be reworked and all need to stay in their respective cities. After a few years, it'll be very interesting to see what MLS does in terms of expanding. This is especially so if the league continues to grow in attendance, viewership and overall awareness. If it does continue to grow, its not crazy to think MLS will match other US leagues with 30-32 teams. If FIFA ever tried to get involved they can use the simple argument that the US/Canada is absolutely massive in terms of population and geography. My future MLS is two conferences of 15-18 teams but who really knows.

[greatwhitenorf]

Atlanta city on its own actually isn't that big, population is only 443,000. If you count the metro area that covers a rather large distance of land, then yes it is 9th biggest. But according to stats San Antonio 1.3 million or counting by metro it is 25th largest, only 1 spot behind 24th biggest Portland. And still ahead of Columbus, Kansas and Salt Lake. And smaller teams have shown the league that they can sell out stadiums. Atlanta on the other hand has shown in some of there other sports that tickets can be hard to sell in the city of Atlanta and don't got the greatest attendance record. However does any of this mean Atlanta will or will not fail, no. Its hard to say really, and it is not surprising that MLS would at least try to go to the bigger cities, I mean more people should equal more fans. Makes sense. Things just don't always work out that way. I think a lot of people just don't think the South is the best market for a Soccer team. But who knows maybe they could surprise us all!

It's not just about population, though the rankings I referred to were ranking cities as TV markets, a crucial consideration for a league trying to gain greater national network exposure. Atlanta is also a massive corporate hub, and those are the types to buy up suites and premium seats.

But the biggest incentive is the big, comfy cushion formed by owner Arthur Blank's wallet. The team can struggle at the gate and he's got the reserves to keep them going but, just as importantly, he's likely to have the corporate connections to attract sponsorships. Not every sponsor's sign or ad placement is a result of love for the game or a team's demographics. Often it's one company exec scratching another's back to grease a deal somewhere else. Plus Blank can leverage deals that create exposure with his NFL Falcons. San Antonio is cutely appealing and may one day join the league, but for now, they can't touch what Blank is offering.

[Yohan]

http://www.soccerbyives.net/2014/04/increasing-receive-minneapolis.html

Vikings owner on MLS Minneapolis

[Detroit_TFC]

Blargh. Letting a Wilf-led ownership group into MLS would be a shame. Hopefully the Twins/Minnesota Utd alternative option gets some attention.

[Mark in Ottawa]

I think a lot of people just don't think the South is the best market for a Soccer team. But who knows maybe they could surprise us all!
But Atlanta already has a team in the NASL so they already have a core of fans to start with.

[Yohan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sud6WpRn8A#t=1230

Presser now

[Kaz]

Other then the Mayor is there anyone not white in that audience? It seems like they are marketing to 34% of the population.. and even then only the Hipster, craft beer drinking population. I'm even more convinced this is a bad location.

[C.Ronaldo]

fuk now its real?

[C.Ronaldo]

Other then the Male is there anyone not white in that audience? It seems like they are marketing to 34% of the population.. and even then only the Hipster, craft beer drinking population. I'm even more convinced this is a bad location.

seriously....why is it only white people in there? America can be an odd place

[Redcoe15]

Toronto: All For One.

Atlanta: One For All.

[TFC07]

Eastern Conference is getting crowded with all these teams joining the league. I guess Houston and SKC are going to moved to western conference?

[JamboAl]

Man, a July/August game in Hotlanta is gonna be unbearably hot and humid. Oh yeah, Orlando too.

[FluSH]

It just got grimey!

[Yohan]

Man, a July/August game in Hotlanta is gonna be unbearably hot and humid. Oh yeah, Orlando too.
apparently the stadium has air conditioning

[Yohan]

about 1100 season ticket deposit, merely hours after announcement

[james]

Well one thing positive is that Atlanta plan to join the league in 2017, gives them years to get ready, and the stadium should be complete. NY is joining the league in 2015, and they don't got much time. And they will play in Yankee stadium for at least 3 years.....that has to be the worst place, its made for only baseball, the side views will be awful. I think they shouldn't let them start play until at least 2017 as well.

[Yohan]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2014/04/16/new-atlanta-expansion-owner-arthur-blank-outlines-plan-new-club-its-look-and

Blank seems to care

[Cashcleaner]

This gave me a bit of a chuckle. Even if it did come from those piss-yellow cocksuckers in Columbus.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlWwP2GCEAI01PP.jpg

[Kaz]

... oh .. oh oh oh... the next franchise will be in Phoenix right.. because they will try to go to all the failed NHL markets?

[Initial B]

Phoenix is also a top-15 TV market, so I can see them also in the running. But I imagine that, despite what Garber says, Phoenix could be ChivasUSA's final destination. That would provide a decent spread of teams around the US.

[Yohan]

now around 1500 season ticket deposits for atlanta

[Yohan]

http://soccer.si.com/2014/04/16/mls-expansion-criteria-atlanta/3/

[james]

now around 1500 season ticket deposits for atlanta

I don't know if that means much or not. Sport teams often get deposits early in all the hype of a new team. A good tickets sale in the first few years at a new sports team doesn't always mean success, its the years later when a team has some bad place finishes and the honey moon is over. Teams like Florida Panthers and Tampa Bay Lightning did really well in early days. Tampa I believe was setting records because they played in a big dome like stadium for the early days. And there was the dreaded Phoenix Cayotes in there first few years tickets were a hot item and sold out, look what happened to that. It was there 6th year in 2001 that average attendance really started to drop to only 13,000. It then rose for a bit to around 14-15k in the mid 2000's by 2009 it dropped into the 11k range, today I think they are in the 13k range. Even TFC ticket sales dropped, tho fans weren't completely to blame, TFC did over price tickets and then the team would play piss poor year after year, but still. But hey I hope its a good sign for the future success in Atlanta. If they get good crowds its good for MLS. No MLS fans wants half empty stadiums.

[Yohan]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2014/04/18/meet-newest-mls-supporters-group-atlantas-terminus-legion

Terminus Legion now claiming 500 members

[Cashcleaner]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/sites/league/files/imagecache/620x350/image_nodes/2014/04/terminuslegion.jpg

Not a bad logo for the supporter group.

Also, that flag below works!

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/1506498_626302327453246_7071966486175662526_n.jpg? oh=ab11debaea4d7ef783c9fa5974213d65&oe=53E2188C

[SoccMan2]

I hope this league all the best and hope Atlanta works out and ends up being a good franchise with a good following, but this league has too many teams with major attendance problems. I mean if you can't at the very least average over 15000 a game then you as a club have major problems. I will give D.C. and Chivas a break right now until they sort out their stadium issues, however, teams like Columbus ( 11000 yesterday), Colorado(11000 or so yesterday), New England and even Chicago and the Red Bulls who's stadiums seem to be always half empty whenever I watch them play at home have issues. They play like what 17 or 18 home dates and you can't consistently get at least 15000 a game, then you have a problem. What if MLS was like hockey where they play like over 40 home games what would some of these problem franchise be getting a game maybe a couple of thousand a game. Yes expanding is nice, however they need to deal with all these problem franchises who are drawing flies.

[Cashcleaner]

^ Expanding over 20 games is a mistake in my mind, but the league seems committed to putting a club in every possible market they can find. I think we'd be a much stronger organization if we sorted out clubs like Chivas and DC first. San Jose is probably gonna sort themselves out once their new stadium is completed, so I'm not all that worried about the Quakes, though. I'm still kinda wary about New York getting a second franchise as well. I think NYCFC could very well be a success on the other side of town, but I'd rather see the Red Bulls fill their new stadium up every week.

[greatwhitenorf]

That SI article is an informative one.

It would be nice to see MLS persevere with its troubled franchises and emerge, head high, with shining solutions. But trying to force an outcome where long-term apathy reigns is hardly the way to go. Given the strength of Arthur Blank's ownership in Atlanta, you have to cut MLS some slack, but I'd be happier to see the league move franchises that aren't working to more receptive markets - Chivas to Sacramento or San Diego, Columbus to St. Louis, Minneapolis or Indianapolis. Then put off further expansion until the quality of play rises.

With the arrival of Atlanta, MLS now has teams in the top 10 US TV markets, but only 5, if you include Miami, in the next 15. That second group is where the most crucial decisions will have to be made.

[Initial B]

I could see the league expanding to 28 teams that would cover the majority of the top 25 markets:
EASTERN CONFERENCE
Atlantic Division: New England, NYRB, NYCFC, Philadelphia, DC United, Orlando, Miami
Central Division: Montreal, Toronto, Chicago, Columbus, Indianapolis, Atlanta, Charlotte
WESTERN CONFERENCE
Mountain Division: Minnesota, RSL, Colorado, SKC, Phoenix/San Antonio, Dallas, Houston
Pacific Division: Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Sacremento, San Jose, LAG, Chivas

That's pretty well balanced geographically and includes 20 of the top-25 TV markets. San Antonio over Phoenix because it will kill the NASL. And Detroit is a lost cause.

[james]

That SI article is an informative one.

It would be nice to see MLS persevere with its troubled franchises and emerge, head high, with shining solutions. But trying to force an outcome where long-term apathy reigns is hardly the way to go. Given the strength of Arthur Blank's ownership in Atlanta, you have to cut MLS some slack, but I'd be happier to see the league move franchises that aren't working to more receptive markets - Chivas to Sacramento or San Diego, Columbus to St. Louis, Minneapolis or Indianapolis. Then put off further expansion until the quality of play rises.

With the arrival of Atlanta, MLS now has teams in the top 10 US TV markets, but only 5, if you include Miami, in the next 15. That second group is where the most crucial decisions will have to be made.

St.Louis looks like its not that different then Detroit.

St.Louis - Population in 1950 - 856,796. And the population in 2010- 319,294.
Detroit - Population in 1950 1,849,568. And Population in 2010- 713,777.

Many jobs have left St.Louis, many industrial business have left town and many gone over seas. Populations have decreased, poverty reason, and crime and murder sky rocketed (St.Louis in 2012 rated 3rd highest murder rate behind only Detroit and New Orleans). I wonder if St.Louis would still be a good market for new teams? Many people seem to say Detroit would never work getting a team due to the state of the city, but while St.Louis might not be as bad as Detroit, it doesn't look that much worse and still on the fast decline.

[kodiakTFC]

Atlanta has eclipsed 9000 season ticket deposits. Didn't expect that.

source: http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/pro-sports/season-ticket-pledges-sharp-for-atlantas-mls-team/nfhpP/

[Pint]

When ticket numbers come out i'm always interested in how many are scalpers... even though we really have no way of knowing.

[james]

Atlanta has eclipsed 9000 season ticket deposits. Didn't expect that.

source: http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/pro-sports/season-ticket-pledges-sharp-for-atlantas-mls-team/nfhpP/

wow if thats the case, then good on them. They sure passed what I ever thought they would sell this early. Hope it stays this way and keeps rising, they got plenty of time!