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Initial B
03-14-2014, 12:22 PM
I'm realizing perhaps I've been too negative about this year. Lieweke does ask a valid question in "Why can we be great?"

It got me rereading pages 306-307 in "Inverting the Pyramid" where they talk about this. Here's a couple of quotes:


"...if you want to go down in history you don't just need to win, you have to entertain."

That became an abiding principle, and Sacchi seems very early to have had an eye on posterity, or at least to have a notion of greatness measured by something more than medals or trophies. "Great clubs have had one thing in common throughout history, regardless of era and tactics," he said, "they owned the pitch and they owned the ball. That means when you have the ball, you dictate play and when you are defending, you control the space.

Marco van Basten used to ask me why we had to win and also be convincing. A few years ago, [I]France Football made their list of the ten greatest teams in history. My Milan was right up there. World Soccer did the same: my Milan was fourth, but the first three were national teams - Hungary '54, Brazil '70 and Holland '74. And then us. So took those magazines and told Marco, 'This is why you need to win and you need to be convincing.' I didn't do it because I wanted to write history. I did it because I wanted to give 90 minutes of joy to people. And I wanted that joy to come not from winning, but from being entertained, from witnessing something special. I did this out of passion, not because I wanted to manage Milan or win the European Cup. I was just a guy with ideas and I loved to teach. A good manager is both screenwriter and director. The team has to reflect him."

Lieweke definitely has the entertainment factor and special vision, but does Nelsen? Can Nelsen be a good coach that can bring out greatness in this team? Or could he be one of coaches Jorge Valdano talks about. Again from "Inverting the Pyramid":


"Coaches", he said, "have come to view games as a succession of threats and thus fear has contaminated their ideas. every imaginary threat they try to nullify leads them to a repressive decision which corrodes aspects of football such as happiness, freedom and creativity. At the heart of football's great power of seduction is that there are certain sensations that are eternal . What a fan feels today thinking about the game is at the heart of what fans felt fifty or eighty years ago... People often say results are paramount, that, ten years down the line, the only thing which will be remembered is the score, but that's not true...What remains in peoples memories is the search for greatness and the feeling it engenders. We remember Arrigo Sacchi's AC Milan side more than we remember Fabio Capello's AC Milan side, even though Capello's Milan was more successful and more recent. Equally the Dutch Total Football teams of the 1970s are legendary, far more than West Germany, who beat them in the World Cup final in 1974, or Argentina, who defeated them in the 1978 final. It's about the search for perfection. We know it doesn't exist, but it's our obligation towards football and, maybe, towards humanity to strive towards it. That's what we remember. That's what's special."

I look back at the signings from this year and just about all of them said they "wanted to be a part of something special." I guess the last 7 years of following the train wreck that has been TFC had beaten the possibility that the team could be special out of me. I've been afraid to dream that things could be great because the past has been so bitterly disappointing after the great vibe this franchise gave off in the beginning. Has anybody else had that experience?

I'll stop rambling now, but I just have two more questions: What pieces, if any, do you think are missing that prevent this version of TFC from being one of the greats in MLS history? And what does it take to be considered great? Is it winning, or style, or a bit of both, or something else entirely?

OgtheDim
03-14-2014, 12:47 PM
Greatness is a really subjective term. Here's my take:

I don't think we have seen a great MLS side yet. Greatness to me is a team that dominates and succeeds, in every position, at the highest possible level over a number of years, and establishes a relationship of respect with supporters and the media. In leagues that prefer parity, like MLS 1.0 and 2.0 and the NFL, this doesn't happen much.

Greatness might occur within MLS 3.0 but its tough with a salary cap and domestic restrictions (two things I don't think are a good idea to get rid of). LB and RB are a key position in modern football with the ability to create and exploit tactical holes; yet MLS teams don't want to put a lot of money there. Forwards are, by and large, not all that good technically, relying upon the law of averages rather then skill. And the drop off to the subs in all positions can be huge. MLS teams find it not that difficult to become ungood, so to speak.

Under current corporate management, TFC has the opportunity to touch greatness. The owners get what is necessary to succeed - cash and a willingness to reach for opportunities. The President gets this game and is a driving force in what it is becoming. The GM knows how to work with other teams and how to create a team.

The coach is unknown. There is potential but we have not seen him with the tools yet to succeed. This week we begin to see if he's any good and can lead us to greatness.


As for the players, the potential is there in attack and in midfield and in defence. But, its all potential. Frankly, any player but Cesar, Caldwell, Bradley and Defoe could be upgraded. And our depth, which is necessary for success, is not good enough.

all the pieces are there to build on to achieve greatness. Some of the current pieces may not be around if/when we get there.

But, there is certainly more potential for greatness there then ever before. And that's about all any supporter of TFC can ask for.

tiberius
03-14-2014, 08:43 PM
I'm realizing perhaps I've been too negative about this year. Lieweke does ask a valid question in "Why can we be great?"
...
It got me rereading pages 306-307 in " What pieces, if any, do you think are missing that prevent this version of TFC from being one of the greats in MLS history? And what does it take to be considered great? Is it winning, or style, or a bit of both, or something else entirely?

Obviously, perhaps - they have to win BIG - take it all.

Great involves more than one year. Two at minimum, but 3 out of 4 or 4 out of 5 years... People have to have stories to tell... Legendary stories... Personalities...

Multiple story lines - there has to be drama, adversity, underdog, grit, surprise and redemption story lines - We have the adversity, underdog and surprise parts covered cold as we have been so sad pathetic that hardly anyone predicts us better than 5th - and even that is in doubt with a $100 million spend!

Redemption - closing the circle - I am convinced that this is one of the reasons they went after Dero - it would be legendary if Dero scored the cup winning goal after being spurned by his hometown team. Karma. The guy has done it before, and he could easily do it again - this guy rises to the occasion like few others.

Nellie the inexperienced player's coach could easily fit the "great" narrative -or prevent us from ever being great ;-)

They have a long way to go... Step 1 - surprise the hell out of us!

Globetrotter
03-14-2014, 09:12 PM
I'm realizing perhaps I've been too negative about this year. Lieweke does ask a valid question in "Why can we be great?"

Didn't he say "why CAN'T we be great?

Doesn't that make more sense?

FluSH
03-14-2014, 09:16 PM
Great is a relative term...

Before 2007 we had no team... TFC has not only brought my family closer, but through highs and lows , tears and joys it has created a second family for me.

This Team will always be great to me:


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W1wKPLCWApQ

lanarkist
03-14-2014, 11:49 PM
Great is a relative term...

Before 2007 we had no team... TFC has not only brought my family closer, but through highs and lows , tears and joys it has created a second family for me.

This Team will always be great to me:


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W1wKPLCWApQ

+1 bud, love the video

Initial B
03-15-2014, 10:27 AM
Didn't he say "why CAN'T we be great?

Doesn't that make more sense?

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: Off course, you're right. My engineering roots have betrayed me...

Here's hoping we surprise both ourselves and the league. Hats off to those who made the trip.

Simple
03-15-2014, 10:54 AM
It will take winning to be great. The word great means 'more than others' basically, it's quantitative. Wayne Gretzky being called the Great One is a perfect nickname as he is, without question, the greatest hockey player in history, even if he wasn't the best. To answer Tim L's question of "why can't we be great". Well we always could have been, the thing between us and that has been ego's wearing suits. So stop asking dumb questions.

Yohan
03-15-2014, 11:17 AM
*groan*
not this thread again

threads like this just invites bad juju

Pookie
03-15-2014, 11:38 AM
If by great you mean dynasty and winning year in and year out:

1. Keep draft picks. It is the only way to reliably access US Domestic talent, a key for this league. Waiver and re-entry drafts essentially involve players no one wants.

2. If winning comes, drafting will be later in the rounds. So scouting, having the best, is key. They have to become the Detroit Red Wings of the late first round.

3. Figure a way to expand the Academy's recruitment area beyond the GTA. Residency programs? Offer talented 18 year olds something other than a spot on the bench only to be cut a year later and losing NCAA eligibility in the process. Free tuition or other variables need to be put into play to counter European dreams for the most talented.

4. Expand and be great at international scouting. When Winter was here we slanted toward Dutch signings. Mariner brought the eyes back to England. Nelson has used his QPR ties and playing contacts. Our International talent ID process cannot rely on the Facebook friends of the manager of the day. Stability, process and focus need to be three solid foundations of the scouting program and they should survive the inevitable coaching carousel that is TFC.

Cashcleaner
03-15-2014, 11:42 AM
TFC has always had the capacity to be a great team. The GTA is one of the top 10 largest conurbations in North America with over 6 million people living within commuting distance to BMO Field. Our team's parent company is a multi-billion dollar sports and entertainment entity which has usually enjoyed a very good working relationship with the municipal and provincial governments. We've got all this great potential behind the team, but like Simple said, leadership has always been lacking with this club. Well, at least up until now. The two Tims seem to have a plan in place and have petitioned the MLSE brass to allocate more funding to see it through. That's certainly a positive change for us.

And I have to agree with all of Pookie's remarks as well - especially scouting.

TFC07
03-15-2014, 11:47 AM
NCAA soccer sucks! This isn't NBA where you can get best talented players in the world for cheap; most of NCAA soccer players are technically weak and too old to develop compare to rest of their peers in the world. Sure, you can sometimes find a star player from draft, but most of best young soccer players in NA either play in academies or clubs (either MLS or overseas)

TFC problem has always been signing and overpaying first team players (especially when comes to international players) who don't perform well which forces youth players to step up.

Key to becoming a great team to be consistently winning games. This is only done by signing and not overspending on players who can perform. Draft might help, but I think our academy can produce better players for cheap.

Pookie
03-15-2014, 12:07 PM
Some of MLS' best players have come via the draft (eg Omar Gonzales). Scouts highlight that NCAA players are more mature and can better make the jump.

Not saying Academy isn't a route but the draft is the only way TFC gets American players for no cost, that aren't on waivers or let go by their former clubs.

MLS academies also have a major issue. They cannot sign players who are under 18 to contracts. But Euro clubs can. This concept of selling the best is misinformed. The best leave before MLS has a shot.

Yohan
03-15-2014, 12:23 PM
Some of MLS' best players have come via the draft (eg Omar Gonzales). Scouts highlight that NCAA players are more mature and can better make the jump.

Not saying Academy isn't a route but the draft is the only way TFC gets American players for no cost, that aren't on waivers or let go by their former clubs.

MLS academies also have a major issue. They cannot sign players who are under 18 to contracts. But Euro clubs can. This concept of selling the best is misinformed. The best leave before MLS has a shot.
Not true. Diego Fagundez signed at 16 for Revs IIRC. SKC has Eric Palmer-Brown, age 16, signed to a contract. (he's the kid Juve is sniffing around for) And Freddy Adu at 14 for DC

Pookie
03-15-2014, 01:16 PM
I stand corrected. Good finds.

Simple
03-15-2014, 01:56 PM
Don't be hard on yourself:) What you said was entirely true until very recently and the effects have yet to be seen much on the field. I like the value in both. Academy to create local stars that can have a big effect and be sold on. College to create intelligent, non international depth level players.