Replacement refs

[cincy]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/03/mls-replacement-referees-refs-lockout-strike/

Now confirmed, there is a lockout, MLS using replacement refs for opening weekend

Luke Wileman ‏@LukeWileman 25m (https://twitter.com/LukeWileman/status/441967544241381376) Here's the PRO statement on the lockout which says replacement officials will be used this weekend in #MLS (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLS&src=hash) http://www.proreferees.com/news-pro-lockout.php … (http://t.co/psDQ47shQ7)

[barticusz]

Can't be any worse than the referree's who worked last year.

[tfcleeds]

Notice there's a lot of experience in the ones who are doing the games this weekend. That certainly can't be a bad thing.

[Stugatzo]

With any luck Balmero Toledo will be locked out for life!

[Waggy]

Don't get the ref unions play here. They aren't good enough that they can't be easily replaced. Giving MLS that option is a terrible decision for them. For MLS- I still say they should just fire them all, and hire all the referees forced into early retirement in Italy. It could lead to a bigger jump in the quality of play than the talented players. The MLS refs are just terrible. I don't think I've ever come away from a TFC/MLS match thinking "That was a well officiated game. The refs handled that well". If MLS wants to be a top league in a few years, they've really got to fix that situation FAST

[Fort York Redcoat]

Annd the CSL refs now have a legal recourse to find work...g:D

[colman1860]

Don't get the ref unions play here. They aren't good enough that they can't be easily replaced. FAST

It's hilarious how clueless that statement is, probably coming from somebody who hasn't refereed a day in their life, but is happy to criticize the referee when calls don't go his team's way. Anyone looking to gain actual insight about this situation (and the replacements themselves) should take a look over here: http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/possible-mls-pro-strike.2000587/

[OgtheDim]

Very interesting reading.........totally different world most of us know nothing about.

One thing I did notice. The offer is actually a decrease in pay per hour given the amount of added events the Assistant Refs are to to go.


Vermes is going to have a bird against Seattle.

[levyashin]

Watching games around the world will tell you that most referee's make mistakes.
After refereeing myself for 10years nobody gets it right all the time.
M.L.S. ref's are no better or worse than anywhere else.
Players and coaches along with fans are all homers and will argue the toss about decisions.
Deal with the decision and get on with the game.

[pdubs]

With any luck Balmero Toledo will be locked out for life!

this !!!

[flamehawk]

I know I often get mad at reffing decisions throughout the year, but really, shame on MLS for trying to force no-strike negotiations. And it's too bad MLS were able to find a bunch of scabs to cross the picket line. Not much of a chance at all, but I really wished the players refused to cross picket lines out of solidarity.

[Red4ever]

I think it's great. Union makes a shit move and they're replaced like that. Both sides are playing hardball and we'll see who blinks.

I've never understood the "don't cross picket lines" mentality. If it's a one off and one agrees with the refs on this occasion, sure. But if it's an automatic reaction, it's silly. Sounds like the league thinks the old refs are expendable, so we'll see.

[flamehawk]

I think it's great. Union makes a shit move and they're replaced like that. Both sides are playing hardball and we'll see who blinks.

I've never understood the "don't cross picket lines" mentality. If it's a one off and one agrees with the refs on this occasion, sure. But if it's an automatic reaction, it's silly. Sounds like the league thinks the old refs are expendable, so we'll see.

I am not sure I follow what you mean by one off? And how in this situation has the union made a shit move - to advocate for the dignity of their members to be making a wage consistent with what other referees are making in N.A? Ultimately, I believe it's about showing respect your fellow workers and their right to strike, one of the few bargaining tools us workers have against management. If you fail to have this respect, then you don't deserve any from your fellow workers, and I hope these referees face some sort of shaming.


https://twitter.com/SoccerInsider/status/442011653492977664 MLSPU puts out statement that the use of scab labour will affect health and safety of its members.



http://www.socceramerica.com/article/56752/ref-lockout-is-a-lose-lose-situation-for-pro-and-m.html This article is interesting though in that PRO (who have locked out the PSRA) are screwed either way by calling in scabs. If the scab referees do well, it undermines their suppose role of bringing the standards of referees up - ie. why do we need PRO if refs that didn't use their program do better. If the scab refs do poorly it brings into further question the locking-out of PSRA instead of properly negotiating. Fuck the fact that MLS is growing in a record pace but failing to recognize the contributions of its workers.

[Red4ever]

I am not sure I follow what you mean by one off? And how in this situation has the union made a shit move - to advocate for the dignity of their members to be making a wage consistent with what other referees are making in N.A? Ultimately, I believe it's about showing respect your fellow workers and their right to strike, one of the few bargaining tools us workers have against management. If you fail to have this respect, then you don't deserve any from your fellow workers, and I hope these referees face some sort of shaming.

One off = this ref situation vs unilateral siding with workers on all occasions. Which I don't do.

If the union feels the smart move is hold out, then they risk having replacement refs. If their work is worth what they're asking, they'll get it, if not, they'll get something lower. It's just business.

Personally I'm not sympathetic towards anyone who is striking or locked out for money, and certainly wouldn't advocate for shaming anyone willing to work in their field for market level wages.

[OgtheDim]

I think it's great. Union makes a shit move and they're replaced like that...

Hardly. Again, read the postings on that link to bigsoccer.


The 4th officials are going to be local guys - they havn't even been named. They will have no clue of the speed of the game and are going to be cannon fodder.

The assistants are mostly unknowns. The 2 in LA are doing double duty on the two LA based games. They again are going to not be used to the speed.

As for the refs, they are either management or Caribbean or guys that got dropped in the last 3 years.

Not exactly "like that".

[ag futbol]

I posted something similar on the TSN website, but might as well give it a go here:

Look, I know it’s popular to make fun of the refs, but fact is MLS and their penny pinching created the awful officiating standards you see before you today. A lot of what these guys are fighting for goes beyond compensation and extends to things that will actually help keep things more consistent on the field.

Of course refs from elsewhere are better, they actually invest in making them that way. Five years ago MLS denied having any responsibility for officiating at all, and claimed it was entirely on the USSF. 2-3 years ago this league has less than 5 full time officials. Today there are still less than ten. Nobody is well paid. If anyone thinks MLS strong arming the officials is going to do anything for this league you are sorely mistaken. Nobody else is coming to save the day and the alternatives will be just as bad or worse.

[OgtheDim]

..
Personally I'm not sympathetic towards anyone who is striking or locked out for money, and certainly wouldn't advocate for shaming anyone willing to work in their field for market level wages.

The amount per hour the assistants have been offered is around $5.60.

That's the market MLS wants to create.

As somebody indicated in bigsoccer, refs in 3rd world countries get paid more to avoid bribery.

CSL anybody?

[ag futbol]

The amount per hour the assistants have been offered is around $5.60.

Still no sympathy?
Are you serious? I've been paid more to ref timbits soccer.

[OgtheDim]

Are you serious? I've been paid more to ref timbits soccer.

From what I could gather, they want to keep them on a per game amount but mandated central meetings and travel where the travel time isn't paid for. The meetings make sense in order to get better. BUT, they need to put them all on a salary.

Assistants should be getting more then the MLS player minimum, IMHO.

[Red4ever]

5.60 an hour / 5.60 in addition? I'm unclear of your post. Also, I said the league made a move to replace them and put a plan in place "like that" so I'm not sure how what you wrote changes that.

[flamehawk]

Personally I'm not sympathetic towards anyone who is striking or locked out for money, and certainly wouldn't advocate for shaming anyone willing to work in their field for market level wages.

I don't think anyone is asking for sympathy, especially not from someone like you. It's about solidarity, and clearly you're not the one to provide it.

I am sorry that you don't seem to understand that money is tied to livelihood, and that sometimes people take that risk of striking to allow them to feed their family and to maintain some dignity in this society increasingly marked by disparity. I don't know what type of employment you're in, but I have a great disdain for people so completely out of touch with the vast majority of the population, the working-class struggling for a better tomorrow.

[ag futbol]

From what I could gather, they want to keep them on a per game amount but mandated central meetings and travel where the travel time isn't paid for. The meetings make sense in order to get better. BUT, they need to put them all on a salary.

Assistants should be getting more then the MLS player minimum, IMHO.
I've read that last year was actually the first time they gave the referees the opportunity to hold a central meeting. Before that is was basically people showing up at the field and corresponding over the phone to try and create some semblance of standards.

People have to get over this idea that it's just a bunch zebras showing up on the field with a "better" understanding of the game and heightened senses. Every year these guys do a ton of off field training and attend conferences to make sure they are all on the same page. The level of education is like comparing a university degree to a weekend crash course. And one group has better performance, well no shit.

[Red4ever]

I don't think anyone is asking for sympathy, especially not from someone like you. It's about solidarity, and clearly you're not the one to provide it.

I am sorry that you don't seem to understand that money is tied to livelihood, and that sometimes people take that risk of striking to allow them to feed their family and to maintain some dignity in this society increasingly marked by disparity. I don't know what type of employment you're in, but I have a great disdain for people so completely out of touch with the vast majority of the population, the working-class struggling for a better tomorrow.

ill try not to be as condescending as you and treat you as if you're standing in front of me having a conversation, rather than in another part of the city behind a computer.

They take the risk, and they're allowed to do that, but nothing says that I have to agree with their stance unilaterally. In this case, if you cant handle the wages, don't be a ref and go do something else. And no, blind solidarity is something only those in a union or those related to someone in a union really concern themselves with. There are times for solidarity if unsafe working conditions exist or unfair hiring practices or whatever.

Also, I understand perfectly, as Do most people over the age of 15, that money is tied to livelihood. But if you're not worth it, then you're not gonna get it.

[flamehawk]

ill try not to be as condescending as you and treat you as if you're standing in front of me having a conversation, rather than in another part of the city behind a computer.

They take the risk, and they're allowed to do that, but nothing says that I have to agree with their stance unilaterally. In this case, if you cant handle the wages, don't be a ref and go do something else. And no, blind solidarity is something only those in a union or those related to someone in a union really concern themselves with. There are times for solidarity if unsafe working conditions exist or unfair hiring practices or whatever.

Also, I understand perfectly, as Do most people over the age of 15, that money is tied to livelihood. But if you're not worth it, then you're not gonna get it.

Actually, I apologize for sounding a little hyperbolic/sounding condescending. I do get a little emotional on this topic, especially as I recognize that your views are not uncommon. I did find it surprising that anti-union views were some predominant here in Canada, even compared to where I grew up, the supposed capitalist wonderland - Hogn Kong.

Ultimately, worth is not dictated by actual benefits to society, it's dictated by artificial conditions created by the market/historical social divisions, conditions that have been stacked against workers. Why fault workers that attempt to change the balance? Ultimately, I think it's a real shame that some refs only make 5-6000 a year. If you don't care about them as individuals, at least for the growht of the game, you shoudl recognize that its much better to have professionals who can commit the time to honing their game and not having to worry about putting food on the table. I much rather have that.

[OgtheDim]

i. In this case, if you cant handle the wages, don't be a ref and go do something else. ....

If you want quality in the product, somebody has to pay for it. If you don't want to pay for it, don't bitch about the quality.

IMHO, anybody that indicates that refs should get paid a pittance because that is a part of doing business should not complain about any decision all season long.

[Red4ever]

Both of you guys are 100% correct on those points. There's no argument to make. if you want the game to grow, pay your refs. It's very likely they get dollar store quality for low wages and if they do, no one can bitch about it. Certainly not me.

They're betting the quality they get from replacements has no noticeable drop off. As a soccer fan I'm concerned for the growth of the game, from a business stand point I understand where the gamble is coming from.

[OgtheDim]

Fair enough. We'll see how good these guys are.

[brad]

Fair enough. We'll see how good these guys are.

While I didn't pay enough of attention to the game to comment specifically - the commentator on the Seattle - KC match said the ref in charge of that game reffed a Bayern Munich champions League game last fall. That's a better pedigree than the clowns we normally get.

[OgtheDim]

While I didn't pay enough of attention to the game to comment specifically - the commentator on the Seattle - KC match said the ref in charge of that game reffed a Bayern Munich champions League game last fall. That's a better pedigree than the clowns we normally get.

Yup, noticed that right away when the list came out - they put an assistant supervisor in charge of the TV game. He and a guy from Greece are the only two with any big game experience. We'll probably get the Greek guy next week.

[FluSH]

Watched the highlights of the SJ vs RSL game... I'm watching the Van city vs Chivas game, refs don't seem to be an issue... Has it been resolved I are we still playing with substitutes

[notthesun]

https://twitter.com/JeffreyCarlisle/status/446503268811034625

A deal has reportedly been reached. Regular refs will return to MLS action starting this weekend.

[Oldtimer]

https://twitter.com/JeffreyCarlisle/status/446503268811034625

A deal has reportedly been reached. Regular refs will return to MLS action starting this weekend.

yay... I think? :prrr: Some of the replacement refs were brought over from Europe and did way better than the usual motley crew.

I guess we'll see this guy in action soon enough:

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Baldomero+Toledo+MLS+Playoffs+Seattle+Sounders+xqG re5c3YDtl.jpg

Sooner or later some team is gonna be Toledo'd.

[Yohan]

I didn't think replacement refs were better than the regular refs. they missed plenty of calls as well

[Oldtimer]

I didn't think replacement refs were better than the regular refs. they missed plenty of calls as well

The ones for the Seattle match were no better.

[Yohan]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/dcunited/lockout-of-mls-referees-ends-with-5-year-deal/2014/03/20/9a2f3e0e-b054-11e3-b8b3-44b1d1cd4c1f_story.html