"Safe Standing" Getting a lot of Ink these days. . . .

[Technorgasm]

I'm extremely split on the subject, but there seems to be quite a few clubs considering installing "Safe Standing" Sections.
Wondering what the folks here think of it.


http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/football-league/184813/snapshot-bristol-city-become-first-club-to-install-rail-seats-in-effort-to-reintroduce-safe-standing-section-at-ashton-gate.html

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/bristol-seats.jpg


Bristol City have become the first football league club to install new ‘rail seating’ which is hoped will be the design used at the forefront of the ongoing lobby to bring safe standing sections back into the English game.
The Robins are keen to redevelop Ashton Gate at the end of the season and have pressed ahead in fitting out their Williams Stand with a small demonstration section of rail seating – with the usual plastic seats able to be folded up and held in an upright position to create a terraced area for standing, complete with a hand-rail which also doubles as a frame for the seat itself.

(side note, if you didn't know any better that pic would look right at home at BMO)

[tfcleeds]

Standing is the proper way to watch football. If there's a safer way to do it, I'm all for it!

[PopePouri]

If Lieweke is going to modify BMO and going to consult the supporters (lol), we should ask if this can be an option.

Also, the best football to watch in terms of supporters and fan support all have standing areas IMO.

[nobodybeatsthewiz]

Dortmund's european-largest kop end is either all ir partial hybrid improvised safe standing. Not sure how safety stats have changed but all in all it gets good reviews

[PopePouri]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgruPqKIYAAxJpt.jpg

[denime]

If Lieweke is going to modify BMO and going to consult the supporters (lol), we should ask if this can be an option.

Also, the best football to watch in terms of supporters and fan support all have standing areas IMO.

This,and most if not all German stadiums have these "seats" behind the net.

"New South"should be build just like the picture above,it allows steeper stands(more rows,more fans in stands),and still secure enough to pass all FIFA standards.

[Abou Sky]

I'm extremely split on the subject, but there seems to be quite a few clubs considering installing "Safe Standing" Sections.
Wondering what the folks here think of it.


http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/football-league/184813/snapshot-bristol-city-become-first-club-to-install-rail-seats-in-effort-to-reintroduce-safe-standing-section-at-ashton-gate.html

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/bristol-seats.jpg


Bristol City have become the first football league club to install new ‘rail seating’ which is hoped will be the design used at the forefront of the ongoing lobby to bring safe standing sections back into the English game.
The Robins are keen to redevelop Ashton Gate at the end of the season and have pressed ahead in fitting out their Williams Stand with a small demonstration section of rail seating – with the usual plastic seats able to be folded up and held in an upright position to create a terraced area for standing, complete with a hand-rail which also doubles as a frame for the seat itself.

(side note, if you didn't know any better that pic would look right at home at BMO)

I would bet that through study, this would end up SAFER than what exists right now

I would like to see a second rail half way for little people but my son has slipped a few times in 112 in the rain and those rails would likely have been something for him to hold onto.

Thinking on it... having a 9 year old jumping up and down on wet plastic is probably pretty dangerous... don't tell his mom :p

[Joe Kool]

Seems like a pretty good idea. I have seen a few bad falls forward over seats in the last few years. I also saw a big fight break out one game in 115 and this would have reduced the amount of injury to bystanding people in the section. I am all for it.

[Hustle]

I hope they give this consideration in the renovation plan.

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

I'm extremely split on the subject, but there seems to be quite a few clubs considering installing "Safe Standing" Sections.
Wondering what the folks here think of it.


http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/football-league/184813/snapshot-bristol-city-become-first-club-to-install-rail-seats-in-effort-to-reintroduce-safe-standing-section-at-ashton-gate.html

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/bristol-seats.jpg


Bristol City have become the first football league club to install new ‘rail seating’ which is hoped will be the design used at the forefront of the ongoing lobby to bring safe standing sections back into the English game.
The Robins are keen to redevelop Ashton Gate at the end of the season and have pressed ahead in fitting out their Williams Stand with a small demonstration section of rail seating – with the usual plastic seats able to be folded up and held in an upright position to create a terraced area for standing, complete with a hand-rail which also doubles as a frame for the seat itself.

(side note, if you didn't know any better that pic would look right at home at BMO)

would be 100 percent for a southend set up like this.

[Abou Sky]

Anyone have an argument against it?

[TOBOR !]

^ only to say that I think the folding seat works against the proposal. Remove it altogether. It's just something that can be stood on (providing a safety risk), or ripped out and flung.

Just have the rails and assigned standing locations.

[mowe]

^ only to say that I think the folding seat works against the proposal. Remove it altogether. It's just something that can be stood on (providing a safety risk), or ripped out and flung.

Just have the rails and assigned standing locations.

They would have to change the law to allow standing sections again. Having the seats as part of the design is a necessary compromise.

[McBrace]

Would suck for my kids at the match. They wouldn't be able to watch that match until they hit an average height.

[Huyton]

I like to sit down at half time, and before a game, so I'd prefer that fold up seat be there.

[jimiv]

Anyone have an argument against it?

The poor Argo fans won't fit.

[Hustle]

Would suck for my kids at the match. They wouldn't be able to watch that match until they hit an average height.

Just curious how your kids watch in a standing area now? Wouldn't a safe standing area be steeper than seated area and thus better for spectators or all heights?

[McBrace]

We're in the 3rd Row and most people don't stand.

[PopePouri]

We're in the 3rd Row and most people don't stand.

I think if safe standing were to be implemented, it has to be with general admission. That way people who can't see are able to move elsewhere to do so.

[Huyton]

We're in the 3rd Row and most people don't stand.

So what do you do if the people in front of you stand? I presume you're in a supporters section where they can stand if they want to.

[Oldtimer]

The poor Argo fans won't fit.

:lol:

You're right!

[McBrace]

Not much I can do, as I am well aware that this is a standing or sitting section. I just rather leave it the way it is. If you wanna stand, stand, if you wanna sit, sit! Changing it to this design just forces people to stand, which isn't what some people want to do.

We haven't had a problem to date. The stadium has been pretty empty the last couple of years, especially in my section. I think with all the signings that will change. I also haven't brought the kids to that many games, but I'm hoping to bring them to most of them this coming season. I hope people are nice enough to just switch with us so they can just stand behind the kids. (I have done this in the past with kids behind me).

I don't think you will ever see general admission for the entire south end. Just my opinion.

[gdg_9]

I like to sit down at half time, and before a game, so I'd prefer that fold up seat be there.

I agree with this.

It's nice to have somewhere to sit before kickoff, at half time, or even after the game sometimes while waiting for the aisles to clear out.

But having them fold up completely to give more standing space during the game is a great idea!

[BBLaw]

The poor Argo fans won't fit.

Argo fans? There is such thing?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Dortmund's european-largest kop end is either all ir partial hybrid improvised safe standing. Not sure how safety stats have changed but all in all it gets good reviews

stadiums in the Bundesliga (and one would assume the DFB) have to have 10% standing room

[Technorgasm]

I love the picture.
There is notices wrnnig of flags and "consistent standing" as it is now.
If there is to be a refurb of BMO, this could easily be a part of the conversation shoudl the SGs champion it.

at BMO I woudl support it.
At Anfield, I wouldnt.

my $0.02

[Super]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgruPqKIYAAxJpt.jpg

Damn, that's craziness.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RhiZkFsEz58/S7ayPfBUnrI/AAAAAAAAADA/6BR8l3akWIs/s1600/TFCCAPIC3.jpg

We've got quite a long way to go.

[OgtheDim]

...

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/bristol-seats.jpg


...

Personally, I'm noticing the whole concrete thing.....would be nice to have some permanency all over the place.


I'm for this, although I understand why Liverpool wouldn't want it. Too many memories.

[PopePouri]

The worry is if there's going to be another Hillsborough which is understandable but I think standing areas can be done correctly. Bristol Rover has done its homework though proving a barrier to stop being falling forward and also allowing people the option to use the fold out seating if need be.


Damn, that's craziness.

We've got quite a long way to go.

That stand itself can hold more people than BMO.

[hulkrogan]

I always feel awkward standing at sporting events. I'm 6'7", so I feel like a dink to the people behind me, especially if it's kids, but obviously if the people in front of me are standing, I can't see unless I'm standing.

Whats the expected ettiquette for giants?! :p

[Super]

That stand itself can hold more people than BMO.

Oh yeah, definitely. Few stadiums can complete with that.

[T-boy]

The worry is if there's going to be another Hillsborough which is understandable but I think standing areas can be done correctly. Bristol Rover has done its homework though proving a barrier to stop being falling forward and also allowing people the option to use the fold out seating if need be.



That stand itself can hold more people than BMO.

Once the new enquiry is complete into Hillsbrough, I think they will find that people standing had very little to do with why it happened (obviously it has a direct consequence, but the "reason's why it happened" were all other influences).

Standing at a sports stadium can be safe, just like driving can be safe, and flying a plane can be safe. But you have to have rules, and you have to follow the rules, and you have to enforce the rules. Just like when you let people drive too fast, or fly without a safe plane, standing then has issues if it isn't controlled properly. I don't see anybody wanting to ban all driving or all flying just because a few people don't follow the rules. You ban those individuals or they are arrested. That's why rules and laws exist!

Hillsbrough heavily influenced my youth and how I grew up, but rationally I also know that standing can be a safe and popular option at football games.

[BuSaPuNk]

The worry is if there's going to be another Hillsborough which is understandable but I think standing areas can be done correctly. Bristol Rover has done its homework though proving a barrier to stop being falling forward and also allowing people the option to use the fold out seating if need be.



That stand itself can hold more people than BMO.

I don't think with this type of safe standing section a Hillsborough could ever happen. Hillsborough happened because too many people were allowed on the terrace basically creating a crushing effect.

This stand still has a numbered seat and thus tickets can be limited to people coming into the section. I know that people can't sneak in and all but more intervention and prevention and having more seats then we would have in the south with a stand like this would counter act that.

I'm all for a system like this. Think it's good all around.

[Fort York Redcoat]

The poor Argo fans won't fit.


Annnnnnnd the discussion is made moot.


But feel free and cast your "vote" for or against.

[Ivy]

I always feel awkward standing at sporting events. I'm 6'7", so I feel like a dink to the people behind me, especially if it's kids, but obviously if the people in front of me are standing, I can't see unless I'm standing.

Whats the expected ettiquette for giants?! :p
Im a pretty tall guy as well, so I try to stand either at the rail or by the stairs.

[mcolvy]

Wait so I think I missed it here... What exactly is the safety issue we are trying to prevent? The idea that the current seat set up is not fit for those who will inevitably be on their feet the whole game makes sense. People cant see over, so make it steeper and add a rail to make sure the steepness doesnt hurt people. But other then that do you guys see a safety issue at BMO Field currently?

[jazzy]

They would have to change the law to allow standing sections again. Having the seats as part of the design is a necessary compromise.

and I like to sit during 1/2 time......esp in hot summer....have a refreshment , catch a rest before the final crush

[glaze]

I always feel awkward standing at sporting events. I'm 6'7", so I feel like a dink to the people behind me, especially if it's kids, but obviously if the people in front of me are standing, I can't see unless I'm standing.

Whats the expected ettiquette for giants?! :p

Same here, I am 6'8". and the last 2 seasons there seems to have been a lot of people bringing kids to games in sections 110 and 111. I think it has a lot to do with price point, and the solution is TFC should have a designated family section at the cheapest price. And maybe even clearly mark on supporters seats that they are "obstructed view"
The signs are up at the stadium, but by then it is too late.
I always try to be courteous and make sure those behind me can see, and feel bad if they can't, but why should my gameday experience be compromised? Its a delicate situation.

[james]

Hillsbrough happened because they use to have big fenced in sections, the security guided way to many people into one of the sections, while another fenced in section was half empty. Once the section got way over capacity they continued to still let more people into it, and the fences ended up being death traps as more people from the back entered the section fans near the front were getting trampled by the fences and people couldn't get out. None of these stadiums look like Hillsbrough did in the 80's. These rows with bars look like they would help prevent that, and if they count tickets nothing like that should happen. Many grounds fans stand anyways in front of seats, how would it be any worse if the seats happened to fold up. Hey BMO field plastic seats are not the greatest. You hit your shins on the front and back of them. But main point is we are aloud to stand.

Im all for safe standing sections, but I don't think its much of an issue at BMO field as we all stand. It is more of a deal in say England where some stadiums don't let fans stand. Many Grounds in England are losing the loud atmosphere. This might help bring some life back.

[Mr_gamble]

As someone who is a Bristol City fan, and went to many a game before I moved here two years ago, I can say that a standing area will do wonders at Ashton Gate. Theres a section at Ashton Gate that stands for a fair bit of the match (Until they are harrased by stewards to sit) anyway. At BMO everyone stands in the supporters sections anyway, so this is really a non issue here. Having ticketed "assigned seats" as such for standing areas should eliminate and Hillsbrough repeat.

I loved how the supporters stand here, and think it really added to the atmosphere. I really hope it takes off in England, and glad to see my home town team taking the first step :)

[james]

As someone who is a Bristol City fan, and went to many a game before I moved here two years ago, I can say that a standing area will do wonders at Ashton Gate. Theres a section at Ashton Gate that stands for a fair bit of the match (Until they are harrased by stewards to sit) anyway. At BMO everyone stands in the supporters sections anyway, so this is really a non issue here. Having ticketed "assigned seats" as such for standing areas should eliminate and Hillsbrough repeat.

I loved how the supporters stand here, and think it really added to the atmosphere. I really hope it takes off in England, and glad to see my home town team taking the first step :)


I know Aston Villa wanted Safe standing sections a few years ago, they were hoping to be the first in the premiership to have it installed. But it may take longer as they have more strict rules for clubs playing in Championship and even more so the premiership. Where in League 1 and 2 some teams still have old style standing terraces, the very same that were called unsafe, does that even make any sense?? yet once you get promoted to championship a team has 3 years to install seatting or else the stadium is considered not safe enough for the Championship (so the first 2 years was safe? year 3 it is a death trap? would that mean you get relegated if your stadium doesn't add seats by 3rd year?). And I think if you are in the premiership by no means are you aloud any standing terraces (but some stadiums fans still stand anyways in front of there seats, other stadiums are very strict and force fans to sit). Anyways it really doesn't all make sense, at least let stadiums install safe standing terraces like in Germany, it would be great for English football fans.

[brad]

One thing to consider about a standing section at BMO. Any move towards a standing section would most certainly be accompanied by measures to ensure that the stand is not over capacity. The most likely measure is going to be ticket checks to get into the south end. So it very will might have an impact on folks that buy tickets in other location and come over to the south end (which may be a good or bad thing)

[brad]

I know Aston Villa wanted Safe standing sections a few years ago, they were hoping to be the first in the premiership to have it installed. But it may take longer as they have more strict rules for clubs playing in Championship and even more so the premiership. Where in League 1 and 2 some teams still have old style standing terraces, the very same that were called unsafe, does that even make any sense?? yet once you get promoted to championship a team has 3 years to install seatting or else the stadium is considered not safe enough for the Championship (so the first 2 years was safe? year 3 it is a death trap? would that mean you get relegated if your stadium doesn't add seats by 3rd year?). And I think if you are in the premiership by no means are you aloud any standing terraces (but some stadiums fans still stand anyways in front of there seats, other stadiums are very strict and force fans to sit). Anyways it really doesn't all make sense, at least let stadiums install safe standing terraces like in Germany, it would be great for English football fans.

The move is picking up steam. Villa were first, now there are seven or eight EPL clubs on board (including Man Utd). As more teams add their voice, there will be more pressure to it.

[lanarkist]

The only thing I'm torn about is that visually and physically it's very imprisoning. It kind of looks like were behind bars (I guess literally speaking we would be) and I'm not sure how I feel about that. Don't get me wrong, I've had enough drunken nuts fall or jump forward 6 rows after a goal and knock over everyone and our $1700 small beers, but I'm not sure if we'd really need this at BMO where we're still allowed to stand and chant. Just my two cents, but I do think you'd lose that ability to go nuts with the people directly in front of you and behind you if there was a 4 foot railing separating you and an additional foot high riser between us all.

[james]

One thing to consider about a standing section at BMO. Any move towards a standing section would most certainly be accompanied by measures to ensure that the stand is not over capacity. The most likely measure is going to be ticket checks to get into the south end. So it very will might have an impact on folks that buy tickets in other location and come over to the south end (which may be a good or bad thing)

First few years we would bring flags and drums and games were always sold out. After a few rather minor incidents here and there I noticed they stated to check ticket checks at the gate entrances to 112 and 113. We also started to have stupid strict rules like time restrictions you were aloud to bring flags and banners into the stadium (that one I never really understood the point of). Anyways they have seemed to let up a bit on that stuff in last couple years, Not sure if that is just because games haven't been selling out anymore or because they realize they didn't need all the extra security. I guess we might find out this year!

[Kaz]

The poor Argo fans won't fit.

Think the question was argument against it... This is a reason to put it in ASAP. :)

[Commie Red]

It's important to note that the Taylor report into the Hillsborough disaster did not recommend the elimination of standing terraces, as is often believed, but only that standing areas in stadia should not exceed 1/3 of full-capacity. Depending on who you read, there are strong arguments within sociology of sport that the elimination of the standing terraces in the EPL and Champions League was done more is an effort to transform the target audience of English football away from its working class roots to the more lucrative clientele in the upper and middle classes and little to do with overall safety.

I'm certain MLSE only has the working classes in mind when considering its seating options.

[brad]

^^They might now after seeing the base erode - but Anselmi was certainly targeting higher than middle class targets. Part of that was enforcing no standing policies in non-supporter sections with a draconian fist.

[glaze]

The only thing I'm torn about is that visually and physically it's very imprisoning. It kind of looks like were behind bars (I guess literally speaking we would be) and I'm not sure how I feel about that. Don't get me wrong, I've had enough drunken nuts fall or jump forward 6 rows after a goal and knock over everyone and our $1700 small beers, but I'm not sure if we'd really need this at BMO where we're still allowed to stand and chant. Just my two cents, but I do think you'd lose that ability to go nuts with the people directly in front of you and behind you if there was a 4 foot railing separating you and an additional foot high riser between us all.

Rogers Centre has rails in the 500's, the acc has them in the upper deck. If everyone is standing i don;t see how you'd notice it.

[james]

It's important to note that the Taylor report into the Hillsborough disaster did not recommend the elimination of standing terraces, as is often believed, but only that standing areas in stadia should not exceed 1/3 of full-capacity. Depending on who you read, there are strong arguments within sociology of sport that the elimination of the standing terraces in the EPL and Champions League was done more is an effort to transform the target audience of English football away from its working class roots to the more lucrative clientele in the upper and middle classes and little to do with overall safety.

I'm certain MLSE only has the working classes in mind when considering its seating options.

Interesting to know. I wonder what the reason is that they might be considering standing sections in the stadiums again? I wonder if it is complaints from fans? or maybe that teams outside of the super rich clubs could actually sell more tickets if standing sections were brought back in? Or maybe they realize other European clubs come into English stadiums and to often it is them that you here making all the noise and not the English fans, maybe it just takes away from the whole home experience? Or maybe they realize they could still sell tickets to the lucrative clientele in the upper and middle classes even with standing sections?

[prizby]

^^They might now after seeing the base erode - but Anselmi was certainly targeting higher than middle class targets. Part of that was enforcing no standing policies in non-supporter sections with a draconian fist.

there is a market for both; whether they realize that or not is another issue

[Abou Sky]

Just curious how your kids watch in a standing area now? Wouldn't a safe standing area be steeper than seated area and thus better for spectators or all heights?

For my son it works with seats, no seats would mean that we would have to go somewhere else.

[McBrace]

And that would suck to leave the seats I have had since day one. Ones that I shared with my father at one point.

[Abou Sky]

Same here, I am 6'8". and the last 2 seasons there seems to have been a lot of people bringing kids to games in sections 110 and 111. I think it has a lot to do with price point, and the solution is TFC should have a designated family section at the cheapest price. And maybe even clearly mark on supporters seats that they are "obstructed view"
The signs are up at the stadium, but by then it is too late.
I always try to be courteous and make sure those behind me can see, and feel bad if they can't, but why should my gameday experience be compromised? Its a delicate situation.

Honestly, just 'checking in' with the people behind you is usually enough. At 5'8" I often have to jostle left/right a bit or trade a couple seats over but it has always worked out really quickly.

If everyone is sitting it is worse because you can't easily move over to accommodate.

[Ivy]

For my son it works with seats, no seats would mean that we would have to go somewhere else.
There are still seats, except that they are the fold down ones - movie theater style.

[brad]

There are still seats, except that they are the fold down ones - movie theater style.

They could always move the supporters section into the middle of the east stand - folding seats are there - no reno's needed :)

[lanarkist]

Rogers Centre has rails in the 500's, the acc has them in the upper deck. If everyone is standing i don;t see how you'd notice it.

Glad you reminded me of that - that's kind of what I'm getting at - I don't know if you know what I mean but in the 500's at Jays games, its so much more awkward to celebrate and interact with people in front and behind you because you have the steepness and the railing in the way - it's just way more confined. I don't really care, anything that could improve atmosphere would be great, I'm just not sure if this is the solution. At least for me I like that there isn't anything in between me and the guys in front and behind.

[tonyb]

At Fleetwood Towns stadium we have terraces behind both goals, home fans in one and away fans in the other, seating along both sides, I have always stood at matches and hate having to sit at all seater stadiums, over here you tend to find the hardcore supporters,singers etc on the terraces, far better atmosphere 12th man etc, it also allows a cheaper entry charge as terraces hold more fans.

[burlington Red]

It's important to note that the Taylor report into the Hillsborough disaster did not recommend the elimination of standing terraces, as is often believed, but only that standing areas in stadia should not exceed 1/3 of full-capacity. Depending on who you read, there are strong arguments within sociology of sport that the elimination of the standing terraces in the EPL and Champions League was done more is an effort to transform the target audience of English football away from its working class roots to the more lucrative clientele in the upper and middle classes and little to do with overall safety.

I'm certain MLSE only has the working classes in mind when considering its seating options.

Taylor report recomended that after a certain period of time all stadiums in top league in England be converted to all seater stadiums. Football league implemented this recomendation and clubs in top leagues had to fully comply by I think around 1993-95.

[james]

Glad you reminded me of that - that's kind of what I'm getting at - I don't know if you know what I mean but in the 500's at Jays games, its so much more awkward to celebrate and interact with people in front and behind you because you have the steepness and the railing in the way - it's just way more confined. I don't really care, anything that could improve atmosphere would be great, I'm just not sure if this is the solution. At least for me I like that there isn't anything in between me and the guys in front and behind.

a renovated stadium with closed in corners and a roof would help the atmosphere. The safe standing seats would only benefit if the Argos were to come to share BMO field, I think a lot of Argo fans would hate it, or not know what to do with the seats and then complain "why are the railings so high, we have to stand up to see over them." hahahaha

[tfcleeds]

a renovated stadium with closed in corners and a roof would help the atmosphere. The safe standing seats would only benefit if the Argos were to come to share BMO field, I think a lot of Argo fans would hate it, or not know what to do with the seats and then complain "why are the railings so high, we have to stand up to see over them." hahahaha

maybe its their price to pay for a stadium share, hahaha.

[prizby]

a renovated stadium with closed in corners and a roof would help the atmosphere. The safe standing seats would only benefit if the Argos were to come to share BMO field, I think a lot of Argo fans would hate it, or not know what to do with the seats and then complain "why are the railings so high, we have to stand up to see over them." hahahaha

stadiums in Germany have teraces that convert into all-seaters for uefa/fifa events

[Technorgasm]

. . . . . . terraces hold more fans.

If we, as supporters decide to champion 'safe standing' this will be the key $elling point.

Canny wait to see the plans for our new roof.

[james]

stadiums in Germany have teraces that convert into all-seaters for uefa/fifa events

Different stadiums have different terraces in Germany. I was talking about the stadiums in Germany that have rail seats that fold up flat when you are not sitting in them. Those are the ones it appears that England is more interested in and are having a trial season with. Those seats I don't think they even need to remove for UEFA games as the seats are always there? And I also don't think they usually have backs to them. i don't think Argos would like that!

Other stadiums have seats that are completely removed for league games, but put in for UEFA games, and I think they usually don't have nearly as much railings. Those ones are closer to the old England standing terraces. And a lot of those seats that they move in and out have no backs to them as well.

[james]

If we, as supporters decide to champion 'safe standing' this will be the key $elling point.

Canny wait to see the plans for our new roof.

I think old English style terraces are completely safe, some teams in lower division still use them. I think the main problem was that they over crowded them, that was what lead to deaths. As for the new Safe standing terraces that they are trying in England I don't think they are fitting more people in the stands, they still have assigned seats that just happen to fold up. They probably just leave less leg room and stuff, but I don't think it would be to much of a difference really.

[prizby]

Different stadiums have different terraces in Germany. I was talking about the stadiums in Germany that have rail seats that fold up flat when you are not sitting in them. Those are the ones it appears that England is more interested in and are having a trial season with. Those seats I don't think they even need to remove for UEFA games as the seats are always there? And I also don't think they usually have backs to them. i don't think Argos would like that!

Other stadiums have seats that are completely removed for league games, but put in for UEFA games, and I think they usually don't have nearly as much railings. Those ones are closer to the old England standing terraces. And a lot of those seats that they move in and out have no backs to them as well.

interesting...got this when i was searching for something different:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_standing

[Abou Sky]

There are still seats, except that they are the fold down ones - movie theater style.

I was referring to someone noting that they should get rid of the seats all together.

I really like the design that was posted, I would just add in a second bar half way up for little people.

I can't wait to see all you guys, going out of my head!!!