PDA

View Full Version : Leiweke & All MLSE GM's on Primetime Sports at 5pm!



Pages : [1] 2

KevBaller
01-29-2014, 04:58 PM
Starting in 5 min. Bez, Leiweke, Ujiri, Nonis.

Sportsnet 360 & The Fan.

Full Interview.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/prime-time-sports/

Scroll down half way to "Recent Podcast". Currently 2nd listing.

Ivy
01-29-2014, 05:05 PM
The Argos topic is sure to come out.

Derko
01-29-2014, 05:12 PM
The Argos topic is sure to come out.

First topic that the Clown wanted to talk about

Ivy
01-29-2014, 05:13 PM
Sorry, did he just say they want to add a raptors training area at BMO field as well??

Ivy
01-29-2014, 05:14 PM
Great questions Bob, I'm glued to the radio.

pdubs
01-29-2014, 05:16 PM
guys we are getting half grass write it down! Grass-turf-thingy aha

adam1001
01-29-2014, 05:17 PM
Argos seem to be coming. No ifs or buts about it.

PopePouri
01-29-2014, 05:17 PM
Hybrid grass. Well that's good.

GabrielHurl
01-29-2014, 05:17 PM
Roof over ALL seats

Ivy
01-29-2014, 05:18 PM
guys we are getting half grass write it down! Grass-turf-thingy aha
As TL said, it's real grass with artificial parts in it that that allow for the roots to grow deeper.
TL diverted the BMO grass issues by talking about how it rained 17 out of 19 games last year.

GabrielHurl
01-29-2014, 05:20 PM
As TL said, it's real grass with artificial parts in it that that allow for the roots to grow deeper.

http://www.barcelonafootballblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/grassmaster.jpg


http://www.dessosports.com/hybrid-grass

pdubs
01-29-2014, 05:21 PM
As TL said, it's real grass with artificial parts in it that that allow for the roots to grow deeper.
TL diverted the BMO grass issues by talking about how it rained 17 out of 19 games last year.

I trust TL now. If he thinks it will work then I hope it will. Wonder if there are any examples of this currently used?

notthesun
01-29-2014, 05:21 PM
Sorry, did he just say they want to add a raptors training area at BMO field as well??

I don't know if it's supposed to be near BMO or not but yes, he said a training facility for the Raps was on the cards.

To paraphrase what Leiweke just said about Argos at BMO: "We have a bunch of money and technological options and we'll use both to make sure the atmosphere and environment at both CFL and TFC games are perfect."

He made sure to use "perfect" at every relevant opportunity.

pdubs
01-29-2014, 05:22 PM
http://www.barcelonafootballblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/grassmaster.jpg


http://www.dessosports.com/hybrid-grass

DESSO GrassMaster® is a hybrid grass system that has more than proven itself at Premier League (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/arsenal-fc-emirates-stadium-uk) and NFL clubs (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/american-football/american-football-projects/denver-broncos-usa), multifunctional stadiums (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/wembley-stadium-uk) and renowned events such as the Football World Cup (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/mbombela-stadium-south-africa), Rugby World Cup (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/rugby/rugby-projects/forsyth-barr-stadium-new-zealand), UEFA European Championships (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/donbass-arena-ukraine), etc. The playing quality is the favourite of top players around the world. Stadium managers choose the system that will give them the highest ROI for their stadium.

sounds good.

Fishnicker
01-29-2014, 05:23 PM
Sorry, did he just say they want to add a raptors training area at BMO field as well??

Yup. I think he implied that it would be like an academy for local talent.

PopePouri
01-29-2014, 05:24 PM
I trust TL now. If he thinks it will work then I hope it will. Wonder if there are any examples of this currently used?

Lots...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VNiArKmJ10


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETrfhSVHOtY

pdubs
01-29-2014, 05:25 PM
truly learn something new aha.

adam1001
01-29-2014, 05:26 PM
Is this hybrid stuff the same as the pitch at the emirates? How has their pitch held up?

Fishnicker
01-29-2014, 05:28 PM
I trust TL now. If he thinks it will work then I hope it will. Wonder if there are any examples of this currently used?

Anfield has had grassmaster for ages.

Ivy
01-29-2014, 05:29 PM
Don't they use that stuff at San Siro as well?

pdubs
01-29-2014, 05:29 PM
Anfield has had grassmaster for ages.

how about old trafford? their pitch looked like it was hurting yesterday? brown and uneven. maybe they don't use it.

Areathrasher
01-29-2014, 05:37 PM
how about old trafford? their pitch looked like it was hurting yesterday? brown and uneven. maybe they don't use it.

According to wiki they use Grassmaster.

List of where GrassMaster is used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desso_GrassMaster

Shakes McQueen
01-29-2014, 05:38 PM
Is this hybrid stuff the same as the pitch at the emirates? How has their pitch held up?

Arsenal's pitch is first-rate.

- Scott

gracos
01-29-2014, 05:38 PM
Don't they use that stuff at San Siro as well? Hybrid GrassAlmaty Central Stadium, Kazakhstan (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/almaty-central-stadium-kazakhstan)
Arena de Sao Paulo, Brazil (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/arena-de-sao-paulo-brazil)
Arsenal FC Emirates Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/arsenal-fc-emirates-stadium-uk)
Arsenal FC training academy, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/arsenal-fc-training-academy-uk)
AS Monaco FC Training Centre, France (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/monaco-fc-training-centre-france)
Aston Villa, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/aston-villa-uk)
AZ Alkmaar, the Netherlands (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/az-alkmaar-netherlands)
Burnley FC Turf Moor Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/burnley-fc-turf-moor-stadium-uk)
Cardiff City Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/cardiff-city-stadium-uk)
Donbass Arena, Ukraine (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/donbass-arena-ukraine)
Feyenoord, the Netherlands (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/feyenoord-netherlands)
Grêmio, Brazil (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/gremio-brazil)
Huddersfield Town & Giants, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/huddersfield-town-giants-uk)
Leigh Sports Village, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/rugby/rugby-projects/leigh-sports-village-uk)
Liverpool FC, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/liverpool-fc-uk)
Manchester City, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/manchester-city-uk)
Mbombela Stadium, South Africa (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/mbombela-stadium-south-africa)
Metalist Stadium, Ukraine (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/metalist-stadium-ukraine)
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, South Africa (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/nelson-mandela-bay-stadium-south-africa)
Ocean Stadium, France (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/ocean-stadium-france)
Panthessaliko Stadium, Greece (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/panthessaliko-stadium-greece)
Peter Mokaba Stadium, South Africa (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/peter-mokaba-stadium-south-africa)
Royal Léopold Uccle FC, Belgium (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/royal-leopold-uccle-fc-belgium)
RSC Anderlecht, Belgium (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/rsc-anderlecht-belgium)
San Siro Stadium, Italy (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/san-siro-stadium-italy)
Santos FC, Brazil (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/santos-fc-brazil)
St. George's Park, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/st-georges-park-uk)
Stade de la Beaujoire, France (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/stade-de-la-beaujoire-france)
Swansea FC, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/swansea-fc-uk)
Tottenham Hotspur WHL Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/tottenham-hotspur-whl-stadium-uk)
VfL Wolfsburg, Germany (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/vfl-wolfsburg-germany)
Watford FC, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/watford-fc-uk)Wembley Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/wembley-stadium-uk)

Fishnicker
01-29-2014, 05:39 PM
how about old trafford? their pitch looked like it was hurting yesterday? brown and uneven. maybe they don't use it.


Apparently they do http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desso_GrassMaster

I'm not sure if there are different types of installations or how it has improved over the years.

RealG-TFC
01-29-2014, 05:41 PM
I get the impression that all this Argos stuff is more to convince the city to let them buy BMO and do whatever they want with it then really give a shit about the Argos. At least that what I sort of got out of the opening questions.

Banjax
01-29-2014, 05:48 PM
I think we can all breathe easy right now IF that is the hybrid pitch they're going to use and not something cheaper which i really don't see why they would go with something cheaper. It's nice to hear that its going to be a roof over all the seats also. I know it sucks for a lot of people still that the Argo's are coming but it looks like it's going to happen regardless so no point in complaining anymore right now until we see some kind of render of the expansion and if it in anyway does have an impact on the experience and atmosphere of BMO on gameday's (Which I also feel shouldn't be a problem and have full faith in TL) then we're going to have a problem.

adam1001
01-29-2014, 05:55 PM
Wow. Listening to Tim L speak really makes me despise anselmi even more.

Huyton
01-29-2014, 05:55 PM
So no more Scotts Turfbuilder girls? No more ads with ginger Scotsmen and scotty dogs?

Anyway, I think it's time to release an "artists conception" of what the place will look like.

KevBaller
01-29-2014, 05:57 PM
Leiweke: (On renovation of BMO Field) Want to think outside the box. Most impactful decision made in Toronto sports that will affect Toronto scene and all Toronto teams. Want to be a world class stadium. Spend 120 mill. Make the concourse and experience better. 30,000 stadium that can expand to 40,000 to host winter classic.

- Does it effect the CFL. Yes, it will mean the Argos will have an intimate 30,000 seat stadium.

- Not worried about buying Argos. Wants to fit the cities need in what they expect out of MLSE.

- Wants stands with rollers to keep intimacy for soccer and football because football has bigger dimensions. No football lines for soccer and no soccer lines for football.

- McCowan brings up how it runs a risk on field with football, ruins grass. Leiweke: Most stadiums in the world are multi purpose. They play football at Wembley. Matter of finding best practices. Could explore hybrid grass (real grass + synthetic grass, roots grow deeper).

- Wants to be able to make it perfect for both. Ways to do that now. Technology and Money allows them to make it perfect stadium for both.

- Renovation will allow us to put roof over all the seats.

Leiweke: Tim Bez didnt go well in meeting with Daniel Levy. Leiweke says to Tim Bez, hes mine.

Leiweke: "This Organization is not about bottomline. Counting our pennies. We want to win." When he came in he was embarrased about how TFC fans were treated. What was once the best fanbase in MLS.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/prime-time-sports/
Scroll down halfway to "Recent Podcast". Currently 2nd listing.

Fishnicker
01-29-2014, 06:01 PM
I'm paraphrasing, but the "there's nothing money and technology can't solve" bit from TL reassured me that it will be done right. He is known for stadium building after all, and would be fully aware of what can be done. Nothing is back of the napkin with this guy.

Has anyone thought that a movable south stand might be full of awesome bouncy vibrationness?

TFCAURORA
01-29-2014, 06:02 PM
So will the soccer fans be further from the pitch now? Any mention of that?

KevBaller
01-29-2014, 06:04 PM
So will the soccer fans be further from the pitch now? Any mention of that?

Stands on rollers to close gap because of bigger football dimensions.

jimiv
01-29-2014, 06:04 PM
Don't they use that stuff at San Siro as well? Hybrid Grass

Almaty Central Stadium, Kazakhstan (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/almaty-central-stadium-kazakhstan)
Arena de Sao Paulo, Brazil (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/arena-de-sao-paulo-brazil)
Arsenal FC Emirates Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/arsenal-fc-emirates-stadium-uk)
Arsenal FC training academy, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/arsenal-fc-training-academy-uk)
AS Monaco FC Training Centre, France (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/monaco-fc-training-centre-france)
Aston Villa, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/aston-villa-uk)
AZ Alkmaar, the Netherlands (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/az-alkmaar-netherlands)
Burnley FC Turf Moor Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/burnley-fc-turf-moor-stadium-uk)
Cardiff City Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/cardiff-city-stadium-uk)
Donbass Arena, Ukraine (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/donbass-arena-ukraine)
Feyenoord, the Netherlands (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/feyenoord-netherlands)
Grêmio, Brazil (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/gremio-brazil)
Huddersfield Town & Giants, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/huddersfield-town-giants-uk)
Leigh Sports Village, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/rugby/rugby-projects/leigh-sports-village-uk)
Liverpool FC, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/liverpool-fc-uk)
Manchester City, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/manchester-city-uk)
Mbombela Stadium, South Africa (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/mbombela-stadium-south-africa)
Metalist Stadium, Ukraine (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/metalist-stadium-ukraine)
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, South Africa (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/nelson-mandela-bay-stadium-south-africa)
Ocean Stadium, France (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/ocean-stadium-france)
Panthessaliko Stadium, Greece (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/panthessaliko-stadium-greece)
Peter Mokaba Stadium, South Africa (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/peter-mokaba-stadium-south-africa)
Royal Léopold Uccle FC, Belgium (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/royal-leopold-uccle-fc-belgium)
RSC Anderlecht, Belgium (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/rsc-anderlecht-belgium)
San Siro Stadium, Italy (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/san-siro-stadium-italy)
Santos FC, Brazil (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/santos-fc-brazil)
St. George's Park, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/st-georges-park-uk)
Stade de la Beaujoire, France (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/stade-de-la-beaujoire-france)
Swansea FC, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/swansea-fc-uk)
Tottenham Hotspur WHL Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/tottenham-hotspur-whl-stadium-uk)
VfL Wolfsburg, Germany (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/vfl-wolfsburg-germany)
Watford FC, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/watford-fc-uk)Wembley Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/wembley-stadium-uk)

Of these pitches, which one have regular Pointy Ball games played on them?

Ivy
01-29-2014, 06:05 PM
After seeing those grassmaster adverts, I'm not as worried about the grass anymore.

TFCAURORA
01-29-2014, 06:06 PM
Stands on rollers to close gap because of bigger football field.

but will they roll the stands onto the grass to keep the same distance as we have now at bmo

KevBaller
01-29-2014, 06:07 PM
Sorry, did he just say they want to add a raptors training area at BMO field as well??

I don't think he referred to it being built at BMO Field, just wants to build a practice facility for the Raps because the one they are at right now is quite small.

KevBaller
01-29-2014, 06:08 PM
but will they roll the stands onto the grass to keep the same distance as we have now at bmo

Pretty sure, from what I understand the stands will be rolled onto the grass to keep the distance the same. He mentioned having "the perfect setup" for both soccer and football so it shouldnt be a problem.

flatpicker
01-29-2014, 06:29 PM
So when is this reno supposed to take place?

ManUtd4ever
01-29-2014, 06:30 PM
I enjoyed that segment of PTS. I was pleasantly surprised that McCown addressed the issue that has this board in a frenzy right off the bat.

The more I learn about Leiweke's vision for a renovated facility, the more I am on board with it, even if it includes the Argos as a secondary tenant.

Pookie
01-29-2014, 07:27 PM
I think that the stadium will look nice.

I am firmly in the no public funds should be used for it (or any stadium) camp. As nice as a roof is, there are much better uses for that public spending.

If they want it, spend their own money on it. The Argos don't have to come. They don't have to renovate it. All of these are choices.

rocktml
01-29-2014, 07:35 PM
Don't they use that stuff at San Siro as well? Hybrid Grass

Almaty Central Stadium, Kazakhstan (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/almaty-central-stadium-kazakhstan)
Arena de Sao Paulo, Brazil (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/arena-de-sao-paulo-brazil)
Arsenal FC Emirates Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/arsenal-fc-emirates-stadium-uk)
Arsenal FC training academy, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/arsenal-fc-training-academy-uk)
AS Monaco FC Training Centre, France (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/monaco-fc-training-centre-france)
Aston Villa, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/aston-villa-uk)
AZ Alkmaar, the Netherlands (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/az-alkmaar-netherlands)
Burnley FC Turf Moor Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/burnley-fc-turf-moor-stadium-uk)
Cardiff City Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/cardiff-city-stadium-uk)
Donbass Arena, Ukraine (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/donbass-arena-ukraine)
Feyenoord, the Netherlands (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/feyenoord-netherlands)
Grêmio, Brazil (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/gremio-brazil)
Huddersfield Town & Giants, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/huddersfield-town-giants-uk)
Leigh Sports Village, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/rugby/rugby-projects/leigh-sports-village-uk)
Liverpool FC, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/liverpool-fc-uk)
Manchester City, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/manchester-city-uk)
Mbombela Stadium, South Africa (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/mbombela-stadium-south-africa)
Metalist Stadium, Ukraine (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/metalist-stadium-ukraine)
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, South Africa (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/nelson-mandela-bay-stadium-south-africa)
Ocean Stadium, France (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/ocean-stadium-france)
Panthessaliko Stadium, Greece (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/panthessaliko-stadium-greece)
Peter Mokaba Stadium, South Africa (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/peter-mokaba-stadium-south-africa)
Royal Léopold Uccle FC, Belgium (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/royal-leopold-uccle-fc-belgium)
RSC Anderlecht, Belgium (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/rsc-anderlecht-belgium)
San Siro Stadium, Italy (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/san-siro-stadium-italy)
Santos FC, Brazil (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/santos-fc-brazil)
St. George's Park, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/st-georges-park-uk)
Stade de la Beaujoire, France (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/stade-de-la-beaujoire-france)
Swansea FC, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/swansea-fc-uk)
Tottenham Hotspur WHL Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/tottenham-hotspur-whl-stadium-uk)
VfL Wolfsburg, Germany (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/vfl-wolfsburg-germany)
Watford FC, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/watford-fc-uk)Wembley Stadium, UK (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/wembley-stadium-uk)

Fine list BUT, how many stadiums on this list have American football being played in?

PopePouri
01-29-2014, 07:39 PM
Sports Authority Field at Mile High (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_Authority_Field_at_Mile_High)
Denver Broncos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Broncos)
American football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)


Lambeau Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambeau_Field)
Green Bay Packers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers)
American football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)


Lincoln Financial Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Financial_Field)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desso_GrassMaster#cite_note-Even_in_Pittsburgh.2C_playoffs_are_mind-over-sloppy-turf-matter_games-9)
Philadelphia Eagles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Eagles) and
Temple Owls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Owls_football)
American football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)

BuSaPuNk
01-29-2014, 07:47 PM
Fine list BUT, how many stadiums on this list have American football being played in?




Sports Authority Field at Mile High (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_Authority_Field_at_Mile_High)
Denver Broncos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Broncos)
American football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)


Lambeau Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambeau_Field)
Green Bay Packers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers)
American football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)


Lincoln Financial Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Financial_Field)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desso_GrassMaster#cite_note-Even_in_Pittsburgh.2C_playoffs_are_mind-over-sloppy-turf-matter_games-9)
Philadelphia Eagles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Eagles) and
Temple Owls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Owls_football)
American football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)



So none that have football and American handegg together. It's not tested and there's no history of it working.

PopePouri
01-29-2014, 07:58 PM
So none that have football and American handegg together. It's not tested and there's no history of it working.

Well we might be the first. Doesn't mean it's won't work. I'm skeptical we used just natural grass but I have a lot more optimism with Grassmaster.

Banjax
01-29-2014, 07:59 PM
Also don't some of the European stadiums have rugby played on them? I don't exactly know how often or if its a weekly thing for them, but i'm pretty sure some of those have had rugby played on them.

Areathrasher
01-29-2014, 08:05 PM
Also don't some of the European stadiums have rugby played on them? I don't exactly know how often or if its a weekly thing for them, but i'm pretty sure some of those have had rugby played on them.

Yes, quite a few on that list are multi-purpose for Soccer/Rugby.

From Rudis article


Hybrid surfaces have proven to be effective in soccer stadiums that regularly host other sports as well, most notably Liberty Stadium and Cardiff City Stadium. Each stadium plays host to a Premier League side and a pro Rugby team, with all the tenants playing fall-spring schedules. At both venues, the pitch has held up remarkably well.

However, rugby isn't CFL football, and gridiron tends to do more localized damage between the hash marks and along the sidelines. It's going to take some work to convince local soccer fans, this writer included, that the technology has advanced enough to allow for a CFL team and an MLS side to share a natural surface with zero repercussions to the turf.

Banjax
01-29-2014, 08:08 PM
Can they possibly do this to one of the fields at Downsview first or something and actually show us it can hold up.

jimiv
01-29-2014, 08:10 PM
Also don't some of the European stadiums have rugby played on them? I don't exactly know how often or if its a weekly thing for them, but i'm pretty sure some of those have had rugby played on them.

I think this was discussed in the expansion thread, Rugby uses the full pitch where pointyball uses mostly the middle and destroys the center of the field...

In addition nobody mentions the season we're going to have to endure watching TFC play on the indoor/outdoor carpet at the Skydome.

prizby
01-29-2014, 08:11 PM
I can't wait for our ticket prices to increase so we can pay for a renovation that allows the Argos to use our stadium

Nodoubtguy
01-29-2014, 08:14 PM
So none that have football and American handegg together. It's not tested and there's no history of it working.

But if the worry is the Argo's, not TFC, ruining the field, don't we have to make sure these football teams have a decent field??

Also, Wembley has hosted a few NFL games with this grass.

GabrielHurl
01-29-2014, 08:19 PM
Also don't some of the European stadiums have rugby played on them? I don't exactly know how often or if its a weekly thing for them, but i'm pretty sure some of those have had rugby played on them.

The Aviva Stadium in Dublin uses a version of hybrid grass named Fibrelastic that the national football and rugby teams play on.


Player injury can be frustrating for a chairman, manager, player and fans, but the cost of an out of action player can also be financially damaging to a club. With this in mind Mansfield Sand Company developed the Fibrelastic rootzone system to ensure a more forgiving, resilient playing surface. Fibrelastic rootzone comprises silica sand, organic matter, rigid polypropylene fibres and flexible elastane fibres which produce an 'elastication' of the pitch. As a result the surface is less tiring and more 'player friendly' with injuries to knees, ankles and lower backs less likely to occur. It also makes the surface less prone to disturbance, giving ball players a better grip.

As a testimony to the player-friendly nature of the technology, the Aviva stadium's first major game played on the Fibrelastic pitch was Ireland XI v Man United on August 4th, after which Michael Owen commented that it was "the best pitch he had ever played on".

Fibrelastic is also great news for the groundsmen at the Aviva stadium, as the pitch is less prone to divots and scar damage, without compromising its excellent hard-wearing properties. Damage to the surface is minimal, and the stadium even hosted the Leinster v Munster rugby game, only five days after a large concert in the stadium that required the pitch to be covered for ten days, without needing to be re-turfed. Drainage is not compromised by these hard-wearing benefits, and in fact those who maintain to Fibrelastic pitches have noted that aeration is not needed as often

KevBaller
01-29-2014, 08:26 PM
One person that cant be blamed is Leiweke. If us fans want the goods, we have to realize that this stadium is not owned by the team, everything has to come with the approval of the city. From what I know, the city wants Argos at BMO, if ensuring the security of the Argos will help Toronto land an NFL team, if an upgraded BMO Field will land us a Winter Classic, it is Leiweke's duty as President of not only TFC but president of MLSE to do this and we cant blame him for his competency. His job is to bring not only on field success to all the teams he overseas but financial success. He has been nothing short of amazing as president. He has instilled a winning culture and high level of expectation for all of the teams he overseas.

If this has to be done, there is no better man then Leiweke to oversee that this project is done as well as possible. That may mean that the turf may not be at optimal conditions, but we have to live with it and I think this is the only concern. He has made it clear, fan experience will not be compromised, and besides the turf..supporters section??..I have full confidence in Leiweke that this project will turn out as well as his restrictions afford him.

GabrielHurl
01-29-2014, 08:26 PM
Do you get rug burn?

I don't know - I've never played on it

BuSaPuNk
01-29-2014, 08:31 PM
But if the worry is the Argo's, not TFC, ruining the field, don't we have to make sure these football teams have a decent field??

Also, Wembley has hosted a few NFL games with this grass.

One game a year is not a good benchmark.

When the Argos are on a home stand and we are going back and forth between us and them for 2-3 weeks the grass or even this hybrid turf will take a beating that has never been done.

There's no example of it working. Probably for a good reason.

Banjax
01-29-2014, 08:34 PM
Thinking about it now though i really don't see the hyrbid grass being that big of a problem, like already mentioned some NFL teams do already play on it and it hold's up fine. With the proper scheduling i really don't see it falling apart

Red4ever
01-29-2014, 08:35 PM
I can't wait for our ticket prices to increase so we can pay for a renovation that allows the Argos to use our stadium

Our ticket prices will go down eventually. 30,000 is a lot of tickets to fill. Though your point is well taken. We will bare some of the cost.

Banjax
01-29-2014, 08:40 PM
It all really depends how well we do at the time of expansion I think.

Red CB Toronto
01-29-2014, 08:40 PM
One game a year is not a good benchmark.

When the Argos are on a home stand and we are going back and forth between us and them for 2-3 weeks the grass or even this hybrid turf will take a beating that has never been done.

There's no example of it working. Probably for a good reason.

How does the pitch hold up with a footy/rugby ground share like Wigan has? There is a number of shared facilities in UK that are shared by the two sports.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundshare

Redcoe15
01-29-2014, 08:41 PM
One person that cant be blamed is Leiweke. If us fans want the goods, we have to realize that this stadium is not owned by the team, everything has to come with the approval of the city. From what I know, the city wants Argos at BMO, if ensuring the security of the Argos will help Toronto land an NFL team, if an upgraded BMO Field will land us a Winter Classic, it is Leiweke's duty as President of not only TFC but president of MLSE to do this and we cant blame him for his competency. His job is to bring not only on field success to all the teams he overseas but financial success. He has been nothing short of amazing as president. He has instilled a winning culture and high level of expectation for all of the teams he overseas.

If this has to be done, there is no better man then Leiweke to oversee that this project is done as well as possible. That may mean that the turf may not be at optimal conditions, but we have to live with it and I think this is the only concern. He has made it clear, fan experience will not be compromised, and besides the turf..supporters section??..I have full confidence in Leiweke that this project will turn out as well as his restrictions afford him.

Wow. How's that kool-aid taste?

rocktml
01-29-2014, 08:43 PM
If TFC make the playoffs, next years ticket prices will sky rocket. Mark my words

Detroit_TFC
01-29-2014, 08:46 PM
I anticipate ticket prices going up even with expansion.

Ticket prices for renewals are going to go up from the bargain basement prices no matter what happens.

If things go so poorly that there is a need to freeze ticket prices again, ticket prices will be the least of their concerns.

TFC/ARSENAL
01-29-2014, 08:48 PM
If the Argos are coming to BMO, this is a better option for the playing surface:
http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/10/astroturf-comes-to-reliant-stadium/

MLSE can afford it.

GabrielHurl
01-29-2014, 08:52 PM
errr why would they want to go back to that shit?

pdubs
01-29-2014, 08:55 PM
lol astro-turf. lets just paint some concrete

jazzy
01-29-2014, 08:55 PM
I can't wait for our ticket prices to increase so we can pay for a renovation that allows the Argos to use our stadium

while waiting for this watching tfc at the skydome !

Greatest Ripoff
01-29-2014, 09:05 PM
People shouldn't be so quick to praise this. Do you really see sliding stands, hybrid grass, the removal and repainting of lines and adverts every other week and the increased use of the pitch to all get solved perfectly? I guess it's a good deal if you are the Argos. Just seems like a step back for football in this city but every will go along with it because we have all been bought off with shinny new signings.

Banjax
01-29-2014, 09:10 PM
Was just looking for some footage of stadiums that share and so far i found this. Huddersfield Town and Huddersfield Giants share John Smith's Stadium. I checked the schedules of both team and found a Rugby game that took place July 21st,2013 and then a Huddersfield Town game on July 24th,2013

Huddersfield Giants Game July 21st,2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkX7KGj1L6w

Huddersfield Town Game July 24th,2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXcXINmeOZM

I know the HTAFC video could be a bit better but looking at the pitch it doesn't look that bad. Is it what we could expect from the Argos and TFC playing on the same pitch I don't know but i feel it should hold up. I also will be looking for more examples to see if i can find better or worse pitch situations.

Kaz
01-29-2014, 09:18 PM
Was just looking for some footage of stadiums that share and so far i found this. Huddersfield Town and Huddersfield Giants share John Smith's Stadium. I checked the schedules of both team and found a Rugby game that took place July 21st,2013 and then a Huddersfield Town game on July 24th,2013

Huddersfield Giants Game July 21st,2013


Huddersfield Town Game July 24th,2013


I know the HTAFC video could be a bit better but looking at the pitch it doesn't look that bad. Is it what we could expect from the Argos and TFC playing on the same pitch I don't know but i feel it should hold up. I also will be looking for more examples to see if i can find better or worse pitch situations.

Here is the issue, neither game was played in the rain.

What happens if TFC plays in the Rain on Saturday, CFL a Thursday, and TFC on the Saturday again. If it rains during the first TFC and then the CFL game what does the Pitch look like.

jimiv
01-29-2014, 09:22 PM
People shouldn't be so quick to praise this. Do you really see sliding stands, hybrid grass, the removal and repainting of lines and adverts every other week and the increased use of the pitch to all get solved perfectly? I guess it's a good deal if you are the Argos. Just seems like a step back for football in this city but every will go along with it because we have all been bought off with shinny new signings.

I agree, it's really amazing what can be clouded by a free shirt and a couple of beers.

Fishnicker
01-29-2014, 09:25 PM
errr why would they want to go back to that shit?

TFC wouldn't, just the Argos. It's actually an interesting way to look at it - temporary turf on top of grass, rather than the other way around.

Huyton
01-29-2014, 09:25 PM
Many BPL teams play very often at. This time of year. Between league games, FA Cup, and European competition, there will be times when the field will be used every week, sometimes with only a three days between games. This is also the time of year where the grass is dormant, there is no sunlight, and the rain is plentiful.

And yet, watching the game from Anfield the other night, the pitch appeared to be in pretty good condition. The same goes for other surfaces around England and across northern Europe at this time of year.

So I think there is some evidence to back up Tim L.'s claim that this surface will work.

Banjax
01-29-2014, 09:26 PM
Here is the issue, neither game was played in the rain.

What happens if TFC plays in the Rain on Saturday, CFL a Thursday, and TFC on the Saturday again. If it rains during the first TFC and then the CFL game what does the Pitch look like.

Thats the main thing i'm trying to find right now

tfcleeds
01-29-2014, 09:26 PM
Enjoyed the interview, but I thought it was a bit disingenuous of TL to suggest that football played regularly on the pitch wouldn't be as adverse as rugby played on it would be.

PopePouri
01-29-2014, 09:32 PM
Here is the issue, neither game was played in the rain.

What happens if TFC plays in the Rain on Saturday, CFL a Thursday, and TFC on the Saturday again. If it rains during the first TFC and then the CFL game what does the Pitch look like.

You know it does it does rain in England.

BuSaPuNk
01-29-2014, 09:36 PM
How does the pitch hold up with a footy/rugby ground share like Wigan has? There is a number of shared facilities in UK that are shared by the two sports.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundshare

Rugby isn't as bad to the pitch as handegg is between the hash marks. All the action is in the middle of the pitch it's different pressure on the surface compared to Rugby.

Kaz
01-29-2014, 09:38 PM
You know it does it does rain in England.

Yes it does, but I have not seen an example of this Hybrid turf in a situation were you get Lake Ontario style rains twice with a grid iron game being played.

Nodoubtguy
01-29-2014, 09:38 PM
Sadly, whatever we think or want at this point doesn't matter much. It seems like its going to be a done deal one way or another so lets just hope they don't hold back and spend whatever it takes to make it the best possible for us.

ensco
01-29-2014, 09:49 PM
I find this all very sad. Maybe it'll be OK, none of us really can say, but god this multi-purpose "it'll be perfect for every sport" prattle is exactly what Chuck Magwood said in every press conference about Skydome.

I see the beautiful soccer only stadiums in NY, Chicago, KC, Montreal, LA, so many others, all with roofs ... why can't that be us? Why do we have to choose between a half assed meccano set facsimile of a stadium, and a multi-sport frankenstein building.

Greatest Ripoff
01-29-2014, 09:49 PM
there is no sunlight.

What? Is this some sort of stereotype? It's been pretty sunny this week in London and by February you start to see spring weather. And when it does rain it is more of a light drizzle. The rain rarely comes down as hard at it does in Toronto.

Once this this is done there is no going back. This the time to ask the questions and push back if you don't like what you hear and see.

OgtheDim
01-29-2014, 10:09 PM
...In addition nobody mentions the season we're going to have to endure watching TFC play on the indoor/outdoor carpet at the Skydome.

That's because the plan is to do BMO piecemeal. I'm a bit skeptical but that is the plan.

Huyton
01-29-2014, 10:25 PM
What? Is this some sort of stereotype? It's been pretty sunny this week in London and by February you start to see spring weather. And when it does rain it is more of a light drizzle. The rain rarely comes down as hard at it does in Toronto.

Nope...not a stereotype. In years past, English pitches would have been a mud bath by now, with the penalty area chewed up badly. The new hybrid fields allow games to take place where before they'd have been playing on mud and sand.

England is far enough north that the Sun doesnt get very high in the sky...setting shortly after 4pm in December, as well. Large portions of the field will be in permanent shade due to the high stands and roof lines.
The UK Met Office figures show this *winter has already seen eight inches of rain in England, and is on track to be the wettest winter since records were kept. The average for December to February is nine inches.

SirBobSaget
01-29-2014, 10:29 PM
Fine list BUT, how many stadiums on this list have American football being played in?

Probably a lot of those have rugby matches that would do a bigger number on the pitch than CFL.

Banjax
01-29-2014, 10:38 PM
That's because the plan is to do BMO piecemeal. I'm a bit skeptical but that is the plan.

I picture TL going through some sort of drive through when you say that.

"Hi I'd like one order of your southside expansion please"

"Would you like a roof with that"

"Yes, yes i would."

Waggy
01-29-2014, 10:44 PM
Just got home from the Raptors game. Was lucky enough to have UNREAL seats. Dunno if this has been mentioned yet but at the game were all the GM's. And Tim B was sitting next to Tim Leiweke and talking the whole game (Nonis was just on his phone, Tannenbaum was glad handing. Ujiri was in the tunnel like normal).

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1/261671_10151874569286711_508407348_n.jpg


Maybe there really is something too Tim L being a big soccer guy. Traditionally the GM of the Leafs would get that prime seat and be talking the ear off the president of MLSE

Areathrasher
01-29-2014, 10:54 PM
He is a soccer guy, no maybe about it.

His first job was as an assistant GM for an indoor soccer team in St.Louis

barticusz
01-29-2014, 11:21 PM
I think what really needs to be answered is.. Will players sign here knowing that we have a hybrid pitch.. Seeing as it is almost everywhere in England, I don't think this will detract from us getting players that we want.

jloome
01-29-2014, 11:32 PM
Will they be able to keep pointyball lines from fucking up the visual experience? Will they be able to guarantee the pitch quality holds up? Will they be able to guarantee short turnarounds won't lead to the stands being a hundred yards from the field?

People who say this is okay keep quoting Seattle and Houston. But those pitches look like shit, with yellowed-out football lines clearly visible. This is a terrible idea until they decisively prove otherwise.

Rudi
01-29-2014, 11:41 PM
I find this all very sad. Maybe it'll be OK, none of us really can say, but god this multi-purpose "it'll be perfect for every sport" prattle is exactly what Chuck Magwood said in every press conference about Skydome.

I see the beautiful soccer only stadiums in NY, Chicago, KC, Montreal, LA, so many others, all with roofs ... why can't that be us? Why do we have to choose between a half assed meccano set facsimile of a stadium, and a multi-sport frankenstein building.
None of those buildings are soccer-only, but point taken.

THA BUTCHA
01-30-2014, 12:11 AM
This whole thing stinks.
And it's funny that the supporter groups have said nothing official yet.
I hope the official policy of NO Argos hasn't changed.

You will see the lines. ( there is no solution. You will see them)
it not the playing of football on the field that destroys the pitch. It's all the players walking and standing on the sidelines that destroys one side on the pitch.

MLSE is pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. It's not worth destroying the soccer experience for 6-7 extra dates.
they can make money refurbishing the stadium without the Argos.

prizby
01-30-2014, 12:18 AM
I think what really needs to be answered is.. Will players sign here knowing that we have a hybrid pitch.. Seeing as it is almost everywhere in England, I don't think this will detract from us getting players that we want.

would they sign on an 90% grass/10% turf sure; what if it is 90% turf and 10% grass?

Richard
01-30-2014, 12:31 AM
120 million down the drain in my opinion. Why not spend 70 on BMO then the rest on building a proper home for the Argos, best of both worlds which would make BMO a very nice place and keep the Argos history going.

notthesun
01-30-2014, 12:42 AM
would they sign on an 90% grass/10% turf sure; what if it is 90% turf and 10% grass?

I'm no expert but I don't think it makes sense to even look at hybrid pitches that way... and even if it does, Leiweke would do the former, not the latter.

ManUtd4ever
01-30-2014, 12:49 AM
I find this all very sad. Maybe it'll be OK, none of us really can say, but god this multi-purpose "it'll be perfect for every sport" prattle is exactly what Chuck Magwood said in every press conference about Skydome.

I see the beautiful soccer only stadiums in NY, Chicago, KC, Montreal, LA, so many others, all with roofs ... why can't that be us? Why do we have to choose between a half assed meccano set facsimile of a stadium, and a multi-sport frankenstein building.

Unlike NY, Chicago, KC, etc., BMO Field is owned by the City Of Toronto, and any renovation plans must be approved by City Hall, even if MLSE is fronting the bill.

The situation is what it is, and while I appreciate the concerns raised by many, it's worth noting that Leiweke has a background in stadium construction, which leads me to believe that he is not just paying lip service. If he insists that our concerns will be alleviated as a result of the advanced technology and engineering that are now available, I am confident that he will be true to his word.

MLSE is willing to spare no expense in order to undertake this project, and therefore, we will end up with the best possible solution for ground sharing.

Gazza_55
01-30-2014, 02:23 AM
I think that the stadium will look nice.

I am firmly in the no public funds should be used for it (or any stadium) camp. As nice as a roof is, there are much better uses for that public spending.

If they want it, spend their own money on it. The Argos don't have to come. They don't have to renovate it. All of these are choices.


MLSE is paying for it.

Huyton
01-30-2014, 07:50 AM
http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/liverpool-fc-uk

This talks about 3% artificial fibres, with more of them being used down the wings. I presume in the case of BMO Field that they'd use more between the hash marks.

ensco
01-30-2014, 08:16 AM
MLSE is paying for it.

They are absolutely looking for a handout. They always do.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/ontario-quietly-gives-mlse-500k-for-2016-nba-all-star-game-1.1481726

They have said they are willing to pay for "most" of it. What that means, who knows?

molenshtain
01-30-2014, 08:37 AM
They are absolutely looking for a handout. They always do.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/ontario-quietly-gives-mlse-500k-for-2016-nba-all-star-game-1.1481726

They have said they are willing to pay for "most" of it. What that means, who knows?

"they"? who the fuck is "they"? I really don't understand your need to lump in this management with the previous regime when they have demonstrated in just the few short months that Bez, and more specifically Tl, have been here that they are nothing like the old guard, in that they seem to be entirely competent.

And more over, I don't understand how everyone is discounting the fact that "they" have given us our best team ever. that's a fact. this will be by far our best and most exciting season ever. time and time again since TL got here he's been saying he wants to do right by us by giving us a proper stadium and and great team. he's given us one of those already so i don't see why we can't give him the benefit of the doubt when he says our experience will not be hampered by the Argos when it's clearly been a goal of his to give us better treatment and a better match day experience.
my bet is they pay at for at least 75% of the renos, of not more.

Pookie
01-30-2014, 08:50 AM
75% is 25% short.

Not a dime of public money should go to any stadium for any team.

All of these are choices made by a wealthy corporation. No reason to apply for corporate welfare.

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 09:10 AM
"they"? who the fuck is "they"? I really don't understand your need to lump in this management with the previous regime when they have demonstrated in just the few short months that Bez, and more specifically Tl, have been here that they are nothing like the old guard, in that they seem to be entirely competent.

And more over, I don't understand how everyone is discounting the fact that "they" have given us our best team ever. that's a fact. this will be by far our best and most exciting season ever. time and time again since TL got here he's been saying he wants to do right by us by giving us a proper stadium and and great team. he's given us one of those already so i don't see why we can't give him the benefit of the doubt when he says our experience will not be hampered by the Argos when it's clearly been a goal of his to give us better treatment and a better match day experience.
my bet is they pay at for at least 75% of the renos, of not more.

"They" as in every NA stadium builder.

Oldtimer
01-30-2014, 09:14 AM
This whole thing stinks.
And it's funny that the supporter groups have said nothing official yet.


As a group we have consistently opposed Argos ground-sharing with us from Day 1. As a non-member user of the board you are probably unaware of our meetings with the F.O., but rest assured that they take place, and this has come up.

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 09:31 AM
You will see the lines. ( there is no solution. You will see them)
it not the playing of football on the field that destroys the pitch. It's all the players walking and standing on the sidelines that destroys one side on the pitch.

MLSE is pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. It's not worth destroying the soccer experience for 6-7 extra dates.
they can make money refurbishing the stadium without the Argos.

This and another thread clearly illustrates the issue is not being hidden or misdirected. There are people who are confident the lines won't be an issue and I disagree but everyone knows what the issues are.

If the wool is over anyone's eyes it's self applied denial.

molenshtain
01-30-2014, 09:36 AM
"They" as in every NA stadium builder.

Ah right. Apologies to ensco then. Just assumed he was being overly cynical. but my sentiment still stands to those who those who think this is a terible idea and we'll be watching our games the same way the Revs watch the theirs. It's just not going to happen like that. The stadium will be fine for us, if not improved, and TL has made it abundantly clear that Turf is not an option and that they are coming up with a grass alternative. We have the money and the tech is there. I don't think there's much to worry about. just give'em time.

75% is 25% short.

Not a dime of public money should go to any stadium for any team.

All of these are choices made by a wealthy corporation. No reason to apply for corporate welfare.

No I agree with that. I assume we'll be paying far more than that and I don't want government money to be part of it either. I'm just saying 75% is the least I think MLSE would pay for, though I think they''ll pay for the whole thing.

Canary10
01-30-2014, 09:44 AM
It would be really helpful if they would release some stadium drawings at least. That won't quell the worries about the pitch itself, but it would at least be nice to know if we're talking about a proper soccer stadium first that also happens to host football, or a stadium that's not good for either.

Phil
01-30-2014, 09:48 AM
It would be really helpful if they would release some stadium drawings at least. That won't quell the worries about the pitch itself, but it would at least be nice to know if we're talking about a proper soccer stadium first that also happens to host football, or a stadium that's not good for either.

I think its still in early stages as far as that is concerned. Right now they are working on a budget and seeing what they can pry from the city and province. When they have a firm - ish number then the mock ups become a little more accurate. These leaks are coming from the city as they have to at least forecast for this stuff.

Canary10
01-30-2014, 09:56 AM
I think its still in early stages as far as that is concerned. Right now they are working on a budget and seeing what they can pry from the city and province. When they have a firm - ish number then the mock ups become a little more accurate. These leaks are coming from the city as they have to at least forecast for this stuff.

Good to know. Sooner they can get that out into the public the better I think.

Haddy
01-30-2014, 09:58 AM
David Shoalts at The Globe says it costs approx. $100,000 every time a team uses BMO Field. The Argos could be looking at an annual $1-mil rent bill. Not small change for them.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/leiweke-outlines-mlse-plans-for-stadium-renovation/article16570810/

mcolvy
01-30-2014, 10:01 AM
How much money do they make from hosting the Argos anyways??? I mean it can't be a ton. The CFL is a small gig folks.

As for the state of the art stadium that will be paid for by the Argos coming in? Thats a load of non-sense. We don't need them as a tenant and the city could use a football specific stadium that can also host rugby, etc, ideally at one of the universities (argos wanted to convert varsity stadium and york's stadium before). 120 Million isn't paying for the 'money and technology' that they are looking to implement to support both. 120m isn't a cutting edge stadium. Sporting Park in KC cost over 200m and its nice, but its not like the top stadiums in europe and england. They will still be cutting corners again here..

This isn't an Argos play, this must forsure be the NFL play that has come up time and time again. Making a setting that highlights the Argos and the football market here. If the NFL comes here its ridiculous $$$ for MLSE.

I am not okay with being sauced up and told told crap by Big Tim fluffing everything up. He can do it to agents, to potential players, etc hell say anything to get a deal done. But I fear we are getting the same treatment as a vision in his head is making him ignore the most important thing-- the fans.
The crap that the Argos coming is the incentive to get a bigger and better stadium is laughable. They will not get the return on their investment through money made by hosting the Argos. B.S. 10,000 seats would gain more revenue for TFC. I like what he has done, but hes just to f$$$ing arrogant for me and think he can give us bullsh%$ and we'll all eat it up.

Phil
01-30-2014, 10:07 AM
How much money do they make from hosting the Argos anyways??? I mean it can't be a ton. The CFL is a small gig folks.



Well if you compare it to NFL then yes. But they have better attendence than TFC. I pretty good draw on TV. Due to the size of the leauge, things like the Grey cup finals happen often, chances of winning are high.

I hate to say it but there are some pretty interesting aspects to the CFL as far as a venue is concerned. Do I think BMO field is the best answer - NO. I think location is really a big deterant. Walk up crowds are hard due to stadium location and public access. Its a pretty big gamble - renovate and screw it up, you push the TFC hardcores out. Renovate it perfectly and you run the risk of relocating an established team to a hard to reach windy area where fans complained before (ex stadium).

OgtheDim
01-30-2014, 10:11 AM
I think there is also a little bit of "we can do better then all those cowboys who have owned that franchise" thinking going on with MLSE. As a Ti-Cats fan, I am not sure I am going to enjoy a consistent product put out by another East team. We just got rid of Cavillo and his dynasty.

If MLSE can make the game day experience for the Argos anywhere close to as enjoyable as it is at other CFL stadiums, and if they can get a decent product (always about the QB in the CFL) then the Argos will be a constant sell out. The Dome just kills CFL for anything less then 40 000.

As for the location, I think the issue for people at the Mistake by the Lake was the lack of cover for fans at a time when people were not willing anymore to put up with that. Things have changed: most of the CFL plays in wind/rain/snow, and the fans revel in it. Pack in 30K in a blizzard and feed them beer and chip butties, and they'll be fine.

Canary10
01-30-2014, 10:14 AM
How much money do they make from hosting the Argos anyways??? I mean it can't be a ton. The CFL is a small gig folks.

As for the state of the art stadium that will be paid for by the Argos coming in? Thats a load of non-sense. We don't need them as a tenant and the city could use a football specific stadium that can also host rugby, etc, ideally at one of the universities (argos wanted to convert varsity stadium and york's stadium before). 120 Million isn't paying for the 'money and technology' that they are looking to implement to support both. 120m isn't a cutting edge stadium. Sporting Park in KC cost over 200m and its nice, but its not like the top stadiums in europe and england. They will still be cutting corners again here..

This isn't an Argos play, this must forsure be the NFL play that has come up time and time again. Making a setting that highlights the Argos and the football market here. If the NFL comes here its ridiculous $$$ for MLSE.

I am not okay with being sauced up and told told crap by Big Tim fluffing everything up. He can do it to agents, to potential players, etc hell say anything to get a deal done. But I fear we are getting the same treatment as a vision in his head is making him ignore the most important thing-- the fans.
The crap that the Argos coming is the incentive to get a bigger and better stadium is laughable. They will not get the return on their investment through money made by hosting the Argos. B.S. 10,000 seats would gain more revenue for TFC. I like what he has done, but hes just to f$$$ing arrogant for me and think he can give us bullsh%$ and we'll all eat it up.

Red Bull Arena cost $200 and is probably the nicest in MLS. Assuming this is a reno and not a complete re-do, then $120-150 would get something pretty close I would think.

mcolvy
01-30-2014, 10:25 AM
If I were the other GMs I would be loosing my crap over the ACC and how they really should expand for hockey. They could make it 70,000 capacity and still sell out every game, while actually allowing real fans to get into the building.

WestStandGeoff
01-30-2014, 10:28 AM
Nope...not a stereotype. In years past, English pitches would have been a mud bath by now, with the penalty area chewed up badly. The new hybrid fields allow games to take place where before they'd have been playing on mud and sand.

England is far enough north that the Sun doesnt get very high in the sky...setting shortly after 4pm in December, as well. Large portions of the field will be in permanent shade due to the high stands and roof lines.
The UK Met Office figures show this *winter has already seen eight inches of rain in England, and is on track to be the wettest winter since records were kept. The average for December to February is nine inches.

I think you're partially right about the hybrid fields allowing the games to take place. But to my understanding, most or all of the top teams also deploy grow lights on moveable racks over the field to ensure the surface is getting enough light even during the short winter days. Examples from St. James Park in Newcastle and Emirates Stadium in London (and to note, Emirates already has the hybrid surface but still uses the lights to keep the grass portion healthy).

http://media.pitchcare.com/L/TldGyS6ubs.jpg

http://arsenalarsenal.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/making-the-grass-grow-at-night.jpg

tfcleeds
01-30-2014, 10:33 AM
As for the location, I think the issue for people at the Mistake by the Lake was the lack of cover for fans at a time when people were not willing anymore to put up with that. Things have changed: most of the CFL plays in wind/rain/snow, and the fans revel in it. Pack in 30K in a blizzard and feed them beer and chip butties, and they'll be fine. Agreed. It was never really the hard-core fans at the Ex who hated the conditions. It was more Argos ownership/CFL bigwigs who said "never again" after the debacle which was the 1982 Grey Cup.

Phil
01-30-2014, 10:40 AM
One of the things I suspect that would be in play is a total suspension from the city on the public use aspect regarding BMO field if this goes through. That would result in a lot less games on the pitch and the ability to treat it properly between games.

I am trying really hard to find a silver lining in all this, Its still not warming up to me though. That rugby being harder on the pitch than CFL comment had me laughing.

Canary10
01-30-2014, 10:44 AM
One of the things I suspect that would be in play is a total suspension from the city on the public use aspect regarding BMO field if this goes through. That would result in a lot less games on the pitch and the ability to treat it properly between games.

I am trying really hard to find a silver lining in all this, Its still not warming up to me though. That rugby being harder on the pitch than CFL comment had me laughing.


There is still public use going on? I remember playing at BMO when it was the fake stuff, but haven't played there since it was grass. I assumed that was stopped already.

BuSaPuNk
01-30-2014, 10:45 AM
There is still public use going on? I remember playing at BMO when it was the fake stuff, but haven't played there since it was grass. I assumed that was stopped already.

Yeah I didn't think it was being used anymore since they put the grass in?

molenshtain
01-30-2014, 10:46 AM
How much money do they make from hosting the Argos anyways??? I mean it can't be a ton. The CFL is a small gig folks.

As for the state of the art stadium that will be paid for by the Argos coming in? Thats a load of non-sense. We don't need them as a tenant and the city could use a football specific stadium that can also host rugby, etc, ideally at one of the universities (argos wanted to convert varsity stadium and york's stadium before). 120 Million isn't paying for the 'money and technology' that they are looking to implement to support both. 120m isn't a cutting edge stadium. Sporting Park in KC cost over 200m and its nice, but its not like the top stadiums in europe and england. They will still be cutting corners again here..

This isn't an Argos play, this must forsure be the NFL play that has come up time and time again. Making a setting that highlights the Argos and the football market here. If the NFL comes here its ridiculous $$$ for MLSE.

I am not okay with being sauced up and told told crap by Big Tim fluffing everything up. He can do it to agents, to potential players, etc hell say anything to get a deal done. But I fear we are getting the same treatment as a vision in his head is making him ignore the most important thing-- the fans.
The crap that the Argos coming is the incentive to get a bigger and better stadium is laughable. They will not get the return on their investment through money made by hosting the Argos. B.S. 10,000 seats would gain more revenue for TFC. I like what he has done, but hes just to f$$$ing arrogant for me and think he can give us bullsh%$ and we'll all eat it up.


nobody said the Argos coming in alone would pay for it. they'll use the stadium ten times a year with a similiar crowds to us. that's not a lot of money, but it's something.

You should also note that part of the cost of building Sporting Park was to outfit it as a concert venue and football stadium as well (division 2 playoff games will be held there for the next 4 years at least).

Phil
01-30-2014, 10:54 AM
There is still public use going on? I remember playing at BMO when it was the fake stuff, but haven't played there since it was grass. I assumed that was stopped already.

They limit it, but yes, its still available for use in season.

ManUtd4ever
01-30-2014, 11:00 AM
75% is 25% short.

Not a dime of public money should go to any stadium for any team.

All of these are choices made by a wealthy corporation. No reason to apply for corporate welfare.

I tend to agree on this issue, and Leiweke made it clear yesterday that MLSE is prepared to finance the entire cost of the project.

BuSaPuNk
01-30-2014, 11:04 AM
I tend to agree on this issue, and Leiweke made it clear yesterday that MLSE is prepared to finance the entire cost of the project.

Then I hope his meeting at City Hall was for the okay to go ahead with expansion and not looking for funding as it was reported. Tim L has even said that the city would put the money up front and MLSE would pay them back through time.

GabrielHurl
01-30-2014, 11:05 AM
David Shoalts at The Globe says it costs approx. $100,000 every time a team uses BMO Field. The Argos could be looking at an annual $1-mil rent bill. Not small change for them.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/leiweke-outlines-mlse-plans-for-stadium-renovation/article16570810/

The Tiger Cats will be paying $1.2million per year for 20 years to use Tim Horton's Field


The Ticats have committed to pay the city $1.2 million per year for 20 years in exchange for use of the stadium, including $450,000 in rent and $750,000 per season in exchange for naming rights as part of a memorandum of understanding signed in in February 2011.

Yohan
01-30-2014, 11:07 AM
Gotta wonder just how much of concessions the City and MLSE will take from Argos games (assuming Argos keep all gate)

barticusz
01-30-2014, 11:19 AM
Whoop: What reason do you have to not take TL for his word? Did he not say that he'd bring in top end talent to the team by January? Has he not seemingly hired a competant GM who has increased our depth in all areas?

The guy is a visionary who has been involved in stadium constructions and building successful franchises. There is no other person out there that I would want as the CEO/President of MLSE.

TL is a huge soccer fan, he loves the game because of the way you can build teams... It's his style.. guns blazing, courting, big money transfers etc. The other leagues don't allow for that and have a much more limited talent pool. I totally see him wanting to build/retrofit the current setup at BMO because it's a bushleague stadium. It's worse than a high school football stadium in the states. However since the City owns BMO they won't just fork out money for a "soccer" team. TL knows' this, as does anyone else with common sense. Hence the Argos are in the equation, in order to help move these things forward.

As for the NFL aspect, if the NFL ever comes to Toronto they're getting their own stadium, 80k+ no if's and's or buts. This could then also be used to host the final of a World Cup should that bid ever win.

TFC will remain at BMO 30k seat is more than enough for soccer, as will the argo's becuase that's a perfect size for them too.

barticusz
01-30-2014, 11:22 AM
120 million down the drain in my opinion. Why not spend 70 on BMO then the rest on building a proper home for the Argos, best of both worlds which would make BMO a very nice place and keep the Argos history going.

Hey Richard, please find a piece of land suitable for stadium for the Argo's. Purchase that land plus build a stadium for 50M. Let me know how that goes for you.

Areathrasher
01-30-2014, 11:26 AM
One of the things I suspect that would be in play is a total suspension from the city on the public use aspect regarding BMO field if this goes through. That would result in a lot less games on the pitch and the ability to treat it properly between games.

I am trying really hard to find a silver lining in all this, Its still not warming up to me though. That rugby being harder on the pitch than CFL comment had me laughing.

I think people are underestimating how tough Rugby can be on a surface. I can remember lots of times Ireland would play a qualifier in Landsdowne road on a Wednesday night after a weekend 5/6 nations game and the pitch would be a mess.

Here is a picture from DW stadium in Wigan that is a groundshare between soccer and rugby league.

http://wigan.illarterate.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/dw_pitch11.jpg

Here is the Aviva last year during the Six Nations. This was after a midweek soccer international also.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/10/article-0-177A7192000005DC-750_632x396.jpg

So when people bring up grounds like The Liberty stadium that holds up remarkably well to dual use by soccer and rugby it shouldn't be dissmissed off hand.

molenshtain
01-30-2014, 11:36 AM
I laugh at how some take TL at his word.

So if this is done to get a NFL team, which I don't see coming to Toronto any time soon, what happens when Toronto does get a NFL team? They'll have to get a new NFL stadium. A new NFL stadium is going to cost a ton of money.

Will the Argos also play out of the NFL stadium? TFC? What happens to BMO?

Do the Argos stay at BMO or does TFC? Does TFC groundshare with the Argos or with the NFL team?

I'm buying ensco's theory more and more now that the Leafs want to host 3-4 outdoor games during the season.

To me a lot of this is get a Winter Classic in 2017. While MLSE says they'll pay for most of it, they'll try to get the government to pony up in the guise of getting a NFL team - the NFL will go to LA or London before Toronto. The Leafs can recoup the money that MLSE lays out with the Winter Classic as it would be a huge hit in Toronto given the Leaf fan base.

The Argos aren't a money maker so they don't really care about them. And if they make some money off it great. While TFC supporters will still come out just like how Sounders fans still go to a NFL stadium and how Timbers fans still go to a stadium with turf.

Most ground shares around the world aren't being used on weekly basis with a soccer team and a football team.


What reason do you have to not take him on his word?

Building an NFL stadium means nothing to BMO. all it would mean is that the Argos might not have to play here. Why would TFC move? it's our stadium.

I'm just having trouble understanding why everyone thinks TL has suddenly forgotten about us when all he's done since he's been here has talked about how much we mean to this team and how he wants to do right by us.

In the grand scheme of things, he works for MLSE. they want an NFL team here, the NFL wants us to secure the long-term health of the Argos and this is how they're going to do it. this is the cost of having billionaire owners with multiple interests. without these owners we don't have the team we have right now, we'd still be stuck with Mo Johnston and co treating us far worse.

If we go to he stadium and I see football lines anywhere near my field, or if they put out designs that obviously look like it wont lend itself to the great atmosphere they are talking about, then I'll join in on speaking my displeasure with it. But right now, there's just not enough information to cast serious doubt over how this is going to work.

Also, I think the Sounders and Timbers fans are pretty contenting having the two best match-day atmosphere's in the league due in part to their stadiums. I don't think they're complaining too much.

PopePouri
01-30-2014, 11:40 AM
I think people are underestimating how tough Rugby can be on a surface. I can remember lots of times Ireland would play a qualifier in Landsdowne road on a Wednesday night after a weekend 5/6 nations game and the pitch would be a mess.

Here is a picture from DW stadium in Wigan that is a groundshare between soccer and rugby league.

http://wigan.illarterate.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/dw_pitch11.jpg

Here is the Aviva last year during the Six Nations. This was after a midweek soccer international also.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/10/article-0-177A7192000005DC-750_632x396.jpg

So when people bring up grounds like The Liberty stadium that holds up remarkably well to dual use by soccer and rugby it shouldn't be dissmissed off hand.

Good post. This is what we would expect if we used natural grass.

OgtheDim
01-30-2014, 11:41 AM
FWIW, the DW is a grass only field.

Website calls it:
....a state of the art design and construction utilising a sand based matrix which contains an irrigation and under soil heating system.

Phil
01-30-2014, 11:43 AM
I think people are underestimating how tough Rugby can be on a surface. I can remember lots of times Ireland would play a qualifier in Landsdowne road on a Wednesday night after a weekend 5/6 nations game and the pitch would be a mess.

Here is a picture from DW stadium in Wigan that is a groundshare between soccer and rugby league.

http://wigan.illarterate.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/dw_pitch11.jpg

Here is the Aviva last year during the Six Nations. This was after a midweek soccer international also.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/10/article-0-177A7192000005DC-750_632x396.jpg

So when people bring up grounds like The Liberty stadium that holds up remarkably well to dual use by soccer and rugby it shouldn't be dissmissed off hand.

Thanks for that. It does highlight more concerns regarding the surface, I hope they are serious when talking about this new synthetic hybrid stuff. Pointyball goes up and down tracks and it would rip it up. Rugby tends to use much more of the field (which looks really bad here - now concentrae it on two firm tracks).

Richard
01-30-2014, 11:54 AM
Wouldn't focusing on putting the turf into one area(middle of the field) make the field unbalanced after prolonged use?

ManUtd4ever
01-30-2014, 11:55 AM
Gotta love conspiracy theories.

Tim Leiweke has been completely up front regarding his desire to host the Winter Classic in 2017 to commemorate the Leafs 100th anniversary, which would obviously open the door to hosting future outdoor games as well.

Tim Leiweke has been forthright regarding the Argos situation as it correlates to securing a potential NFL franchise. He stated publicly that the NFL will not consider Toronto a viable option unless the uncertainty regarding the Argos home venue is addressed.

Tim Leiweke has also been transparent regarding his ultimate desire to bring the NFL to Toronto.

I don't understand the skepticism regarding his motives. There is no hidden agenda. It's all out in the open for public consumption.

At the end of the day, regardless of the end game, we will still end up with a world class venue to watch TFC games as opposed to the sub par facility that we currently have access to, which is all that matters to me as a TFC supporter.

Yohan
01-30-2014, 12:17 PM
If this all a play for a NFL team, they're going to need a new stadium. Where is a piece of land suitable for the Toronto NFLs?
downsview?

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 12:18 PM
What reason do you have to not take him on his word?

Building an NFL stadium means nothing to BMO. all it would mean is that the Argos might not have to play here. Why would TFC move? it's our stadium.

I'm just having trouble understanding why everyone thinks TL has suddenly forgotten about us when all he's done since he's been here has talked about how much we mean to this team and how he wants to do right by us.

In the grand scheme of things, he works for MLSE. they want an NFL team here, the NFL wants us to secure the long-term health of the Argos and this is how they're going to do it. this is the cost of having billionaire owners with multiple interests. without these owners we don't have the team we have right now, we'd still be stuck with Mo Johnston and co treating us far worse.

If we go to he stadium and I see football lines anywhere near my field, or if they put out designs that obviously look like it wont lend itself to the great atmosphere they are talking about, then I'll join in on speaking my displeasure with it. But right now, there's just not enough information to cast serious doubt over how this is going to work.

Also, I think the Sounders and Timbers fans are pretty contenting having the two best match-day atmosphere's in the league due in part to their stadiums. I don't think they're complaining too much.


http://blog.sfgate.com/soccer/wp-content/blogs.dir/2295/files/2013/11/seattle-sounders-field-600x450.jpg


I could not care less if Seattle is okay with this. I cannot understand anyone who would want this if they had "x".

Greatest Ripoff
01-30-2014, 12:21 PM
What reason do you have to not take him on his word?

For me, it is not about distrusting him. It is much easier to say all of this will come of perfectly than it is to execute it. As a West Ham supporter I am experiencing this as more information gets released on the Olympic stadium and it is now too late to do anything. I would hate to see the same thing happen to the people in Toronto.

backbeat
01-30-2014, 12:22 PM
http://blog.sfgate.com/soccer/wp-content/blogs.dir/2295/files/2013/11/seattle-sounders-field-600x450.jpg


I could not care less if Seattle is okay with this. I cannot understand anyone who would want this if they had "x".


except TL has repeatedly said that is not what we would be getting.....unless you think he's purposely being deceptive...

Canary10
01-30-2014, 12:25 PM
Downsview is always the fallback for any arena/stadium venture. Given the redevelopment of Downsview and Downsview Park, I don't see a NFL stadium fitting into what Downsview Park is slated to be and is becoming.

I would figure Ontario Place would be a more logical place at the moment but don't know if the footprint of a NFL stadium would be too large.

I know one option that was always on the backburner was by Woodbine Racetrack, but I think that time has come and gone for that.

Downsview is a mess. The idea of it being an "urban park" is pretty much out the window at this point. They've done very little on the park part of it. Now condos are going in there. Condos and a football stadium are the perfect match.

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 12:27 PM
except TL has repeatedly said that is not what we would be getting.....unless you think he's purposely being deceptive...

No I believe his references to groundshare is Houston which had multiple horrid examples of damages and faint lines in their new improved stadium.

ag futbol
01-30-2014, 12:31 PM
IMO, this is about Winter classic dates and protecting their business from potential competition. Competition could mean from another venue **or** from another team.

Owning a CFL team means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. They are in the fold because they help fill up stadium dates and plunge the government for more money. It is certainly not a prerequisite to owning a NFL club. It's like comparing running a hotdog stand to running a hotdog factory.

BTW, I'm not sure what sort of stadium people are picturing, but for $150M it won't be anything great. This "EPL style stadium" is going to be a lot more Ayresome Park than it will be Liberty Stadium.

molenshtain
01-30-2014, 12:38 PM
I assume the $150M will be put into filling out he corners, which Anselmi always said is about 8000 seats and would cost about $8 million, and the rest of it would go to a roof and improved seating, and more concessions to deal with the increase in attendance. other than seats and a roof, what do people think needs to be improved at BMO?

Canary10
01-30-2014, 12:39 PM
IMO, this is about Winter classic dates and protecting their business from potential competition. Competition could mean from another venue **or** from another team.

Owning a CFL team means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. They are in the fold because they help fill up stadium dates and plunge the government for more money. It is certainly not a prerequisite to owning a NFL club. It's like comparing running a hotdog stand to running a hotdog factory.

BTW, I'm not sure what sort of stadium people are picturing, but for $150M it won't be anything great. This "EPL style stadium" is going to be a lot more Ayresome Park than it will be Liberty Stadium.

Construction costs for Liberty Stadium were 27 million pounds. RBA was $200 million. They look like very similar stadiums to me, maybe even the same design?

Lieweke wants 30,000 which is bigger than Liberty, but the money they are talking should be in the ballpark.

molenshtain
01-30-2014, 12:41 PM
No I believe his references to groundshare is Houston which had multiple horrid examples of damages and faint lines in their new improved stadium.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/toronto-fc-bmo-field-argos-tim-leiweke-cfl-mls/


“There is a way to schedule events so that you never have the two teams playing on the same weekend and you always give the pitch a week to recover. [As for the lines], there are now ways to do lines that are a paint-based concept where the paint literally can be taken right off and you’d never know it was there,” Leiweke assured.

BuSaPuNk
01-30-2014, 12:43 PM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/toronto-fc-bmo-field-argos-tim-leiweke-cfl-mls/

Tim can say whatever he wants. I want to see a example of this. And there isn't any.

Not only will lines be an issue but on field advertising that is all over the field in the CFL.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qdo81rTkzOE/UeFvEDoAT-I/AAAAAAAAumk/xvPC5ZJG57U/s1600/IMG_4703.JPG

ensco
01-30-2014, 12:45 PM
One theory I have put elsewhere: they're going to knock BMO down and rebuild it, either on the same site or Ontario Place, in such a way that it can be expanded to NFL capacity if and when.

ag futbol
01-30-2014, 12:49 PM
Construction costs for Liberty Stadium were 27 million pounds. RBA was $200 million. They look like very similar stadiums to me, maybe even the same design?

Lieweke wants 30,000 which is bigger than Liberty, but the money they are talking should be in the ballpark.
Our requirements will be dramatically different though. They aren't accommodating CFL football.

BuSaPuNk
01-30-2014, 12:49 PM
One theory I have put elsewhere: they're going to knock BMO down and rebuild it, either on the same site or Ontario Place, in such a way that it can be expanded to NFL capacity if and when.

Don't think that could be an option. Blue Jays, Argos, TFC season all coincide with each other. Can't see us all playing at Skydome.

ag futbol
01-30-2014, 12:54 PM
Tim can say whatever he wants. I want to see a example of this. And there isn't any.

Not only will lines be an issue but on field advertising that is all over the field in the CFL.

Exactly. We can look all we want for examples of a single surface that handles heavy scheduling for multiple sports, but there isn't one.

Areathrasher
01-30-2014, 01:00 PM
Exactly. We can look all we want for examples of a single surface that handles heavy scheduling for multiple sports, but there isn't one.

With regards to the condition of the actual surface, we can.

For the markings and advertisements we cannot.

TBH the surface quality isn't that much of a concern for me. They can make it work.

The markings on the other hand are a completely different beast. Hell the Seahawks and Pats still had soccer markings on the pitch in their playoff games.

ManUtd4ever
01-30-2014, 01:05 PM
IMO, this is about Winter classic dates and protecting their business from potential competition. Competition could mean from another venue **or** from another team.

Owning a CFL team means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. They are in the fold because they help fill up stadium dates and plunge the government for more money. It is certainly not a prerequisite to owning a NFL club. It's like comparing running a hotdog stand to running a hotdog factory.

BTW, I'm not sure what sort of stadium people are picturing, but for $150M it won't be anything great. This "EPL style stadium" is going to be a lot more Ayresome Park than it will be Liberty Stadium.

The stability of the Argos franchise most certainly is a prerequisite as far as the NFL is concerned.

ManUtd4ever
01-30-2014, 01:13 PM
Again, those questioning the legitimacy of Leiweke's claims regarding maintaining the integrity of the soccer pitch should really look into his professional background before scrutinizing his comments. He would not be making assurances unless he has done his due diligence, and he has the connections to substantiate his comments.

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 01:15 PM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/toronto-fc-bmo-field-argos-tim-leiweke-cfl-mls/

Unless you have new info or examples of the latest reference, that particular reference is the Houston ground that gets chewed up by high school gridiron.

RealG-TFC
01-30-2014, 01:15 PM
Yeah it is a bit of a mish mash of things but I don't see the people who have bought condos there being happy with a NFL stadium being put in their backyard.

Woodbine back in the day would have been good given the proximity of the 401 and 427. But I don't know if that would work.

Traffic by Dowsview would be a disaster though it would be relatively accessible with public transportation.

But given the initiatives being implemented by those running the Park and the mandates required, I don't see it ever being used for a large stadium of any sort.

there is a ridiculous amount of room around Downsview and that general area. Office/industrial park buildings can be easily and cheaply demolished. The condos are pretty much just clustered around Downsview Station. And we musn't forget that there will be a be new subway extension going to Sheppard East (the bendy part of Sheppard), Finch West, York University, Steeles, and into vaughan

OgtheDim
01-30-2014, 01:18 PM
..the Seahawks and Pats still had soccer markings on the pitch in their playoff games.

Which leads to an interesting question: what if the Grey cup were on a weekend when there was an MLS playoff game?

loconet
01-30-2014, 01:20 PM
BTW, I'm not sure what sort of stadium people are picturing, but for $150M it won't be anything great. This "EPL style stadium" is going to be a lot more Ayresome Park than it will be Liberty Stadium.

dude :(

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/sports/gallery2/d/1647-1/LibertyStadiumAir-cb14111.jpg

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/ayresome-park.jpg

feels about right :(

OgtheDim
01-30-2014, 01:20 PM
there is a ridiculous amount of room around Downsview and that general area. Office/industrial park buildings can be easily and cheaply demolished. ..

Only on the land south of Sheppard. All the industrial land north of Sheppard is privately held.

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 01:21 PM
Again, those questioning the legitimacy of Leiweke's claims regarding maintaining the integrity of the soccer pitch should really look into his professional background before scrutinizing his comments. He would not be making assurances unless he has done his due diligence, and he has the connections to substantiate his comments.

This is not a witch hunt out of nowhere.

I'm not beyond acceptance if I'm presented with a groundshare system that works. This isn't difficult to appease us fretting over pitch quality. Tell us a specific example (brand) in use for a season and we can find out how reliable it is.

Beach_Red
01-30-2014, 01:21 PM
The stability of the Argos franchise most certainly is a prerequisite as far as the NFL is concerned.

I don't believe that. I think it's just talk. The NFL let their own "historic" franchises abandon cities if the money is right.

Far more important to the NFL is an individual owner rather than a corporate owner. And that individual has to be someone who can bring in huge amounts of government money. Even the NFL knows that its billion-dollar cost to get eight home games a year would never get approved by a faceless board of directors.

If Lieweke couldn't get a team in LA, what are the chances he can get one here? So let's hope he really can make it so that during a TFC game we have no idea that a CFL team has played there the week before.

reggie
01-30-2014, 01:21 PM
Which leads to an interesting question: what if the Grey cup were on a weekend when there was an MLS playoff game?

I wish we have that problem..

Waggy
01-30-2014, 01:24 PM
One point on the lines thing- I know there are lots of Jays fans here. How often during Jays games do you notice football lines? I don't think erasing the lines is a big problem if the teams want to do it. Seattle doesn't want to do it, fair play to them. But they aren't an example of anything, they made a conscious decision to leave the lines on the field. Tim L is saying they'll be removed, and it doesn't seem like that is hard to do

I just don't see how the field holds up. TFC needs a soft, fairly lush surface. The Argos need a firm/fast one. And as has been pointed out ad nausium, CFL football is tougher on a pitch than rugby is because of how localized play is. 1 game at Wembly is hardly the same thing (and it's not like the soccer teams love the pitch there either)

OgtheDim
01-30-2014, 01:29 PM
Serious I don't know the answer to question: is there any indication that outside of the forums of supporters groups that people following TFC are aware of, let alone focused on, the Argos to BMO issue?

Has the good feelings of two weeks ago gone? Or is the discussion of BMO and the Argos a within the bubble thing?

ag futbol
01-30-2014, 01:34 PM
Again, those questioning the legitimacy of Leiweke's claims regarding maintaining the integrity of the soccer pitch should really look into his professional background before scrutinizing his comments. He would not be making assurances unless he has done his due diligence, and he has the connections to substantiate his comments.
I think anybody who wants to take what this guy says without a bucket of salt is being foolish. He is consistently shopping messages and spinning. He really is a AAA+ salesman.

billyfly
01-30-2014, 01:35 PM
One theory I have put elsewhere: they're going to knock BMO down and rebuild it, either on the same site or Ontario Place, in such a way that it can be expanded to NFL capacity if and when.

How is that though?

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2014/01/province-unveils-plans-new-park-and-trail-ontario-place

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 01:36 PM
Serious I don't know the answer to question: is there any indication that outside of the forums of supporters groups that people following TFC are aware of, let alone focused on, the Argos to BMO issue?

Has the good feelings of two weeks ago gone? Or is the discussion of BMO and the Argos a within the bubble thing?

I'm sure you could find someone but most people who care about this issue is within this subset. But that's how it is with most things specific to a sport.

ag futbol
01-30-2014, 01:37 PM
One point on the lines thing- I know there are lots of Jays fans here. How often during Jays games do you notice football lines? I don't think erasing the lines is a big problem if the teams want to do it. Seattle doesn't want to do it, fair play to them. But they aren't an example of anything, they made a conscious decision to leave the lines on the field. Tim L is saying they'll be removed, and it doesn't seem like that is hard to do

I just don't see how the field holds up. TFC needs a soft, fairly lush surface. The Argos need a firm/fast one. And as has been pointed out ad nausium, CFL football is tougher on a pitch than rugby is because of how localized play is. 1 game at Wembly is hardly the same thing (and it's not like the soccer teams love the pitch there either)
Oh they wanted to do it and they always try to, but in that case there simply wasn't enough time.

"Removal" isn't always what it's being pictured as. We can see that in other MLS stadiums. Sometimes you simply can't get all the crud off the grass so they literally paint over the markings with green so the damage is less noticeable for soccer.

billyfly
01-30-2014, 01:41 PM
The stability of the Argos franchise most certainly is a prerequisite as far as the NFL is concerned.

MLSE, Rogers and the NFL do not want the Argos' blood on their hands.

100% truth.

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 01:41 PM
If Lieweke couldn't get a team in LA, what are the chances he can get one here? So let's hope he really can make it so that during a TFC game we have no idea that a CFL team has played there the week before.

Proposed elsewhere by someone else was the point that the NFL wanted San Diego moved and not a new LA team. Looking at it from that point of view I'd guess it's more likely the Bills move here than the Chargers or Raiders move to LA.

Just a possibility. I don't follow the sport myself.

notthesun
01-30-2014, 01:57 PM
I think anybody who wants to take what this guy says without a bucket of salt is being foolish. He is consistently shopping messages and spinning. He really is a AAA+ salesman.

Shopping messages definitely, but spinning? As in being deceitful or misleading? How so?

I don't buy all of the things he's put out there about this situation but I do think he's being honest. I remember reading some comments here before speculating that all his talk of signing big name DPs and Defoe was just an act to increase TFC's media coverage and whatnot. Turns out it wasn't.

Doesn't seem like the type to me. He's a pretty straight shooter from what I've seen.

Beach_Red
01-30-2014, 01:58 PM
MLSE, Rogers and the NFL do not want the Argos' blood on their hands.

100% truth.

And they want the Colts in Baltimore. And the Rams in LA. If it helps people think these companies have some other interest besides money, fine. None of their past actions have supported that belief.

So what's stopping a Toronto NFL team? Why hasn't it happened yet? Every city that wanted an NFL team - either expansion like Jacksonville and Carolina or that lost one like Houston, Baltimore, Cleveland - got one. All they had to do was find an owner the NFL would accept to put up the money. LA hasn't done that and Toronto hasn't done that. Why not?

ag futbol
01-30-2014, 02:04 PM
With regards to the condition of the actual surface, we can.

For the markings and advertisements we cannot.

TBH the surface quality isn't that much of a concern for me. They can make it work.

The markings on the other hand are a completely different beast. Hell the Seahawks and Pats still had soccer markings on the pitch in their playoff games.
The markings can be removed, it just takes them time to basically power wash the stuff off and repaint. But that's only the case for pure turf, grass doesn't respond as well, which is where the green paint comes it.

Regarding the condition of the surface: to clarify, I'm talking about a situation where the solution has worked and the environment is comparable (football, overlapping schedule, lots of games). If you can think of one, please fire away.

ManUtd4ever
01-30-2014, 02:08 PM
I think anybody who wants to take what this guy says without a bucket of salt is being foolish. He is consistently shopping messages and spinning. He really is a AAA+ salesman.

He's not the only person to suggest it. Among other contentious issues such as single entity ownership and a viable stadium, the NFL will not come to Toronto if it is perceived as the death knell of a vulnerable Argos franchise.

ag futbol
01-30-2014, 02:10 PM
The stability of the Argos franchise most certainly is a prerequisite as far as the NFL is concerned.
I don't see it. One is mass market, the other is a niche play. It's not the same customer base or business dynamic.

ManUtd4ever
01-30-2014, 02:12 PM
I don't see it. One is mass market, the other is a niche play. It's not the same customer base or business dynamic.

Billy articulated it well. The NFL would not want to be perceived as having Argos blood on their hands, and image is everything in the NFL.

ag futbol
01-30-2014, 02:12 PM
Shopping messages definitely, but spinning? As in being deceitful or misleading? How so?
.
Do you see any Italian DP on our roster? Not that I care, but it's one example of many.

Phil
01-30-2014, 02:15 PM
One theory I have put elsewhere: they're going to knock BMO down and rebuild it, either on the same site or Ontario Place, in such a way that it can be expanded to NFL capacity if and when.

The building is not empty, CSA has its offices in there. I think that is a big wrinkle in the redevelp model.

ag futbol
01-30-2014, 02:15 PM
Billy articulated it well. The NFL would not want to be perceived as having Argos blood on their hands, and image is everything in the NFL.
I agree they are vested in the CFL, but I don't think you can equate the Argos to the CFL as a whole, nor use the health of an Argos franchise as a bellwether of their ability to run a much larger operation.

ManUtd4ever
01-30-2014, 02:17 PM
Do you see any Italian DP on our roster? Not that I care, but it's one example of many.

I think you're being overly critical of Leiweke considering the unprecedented transformation that has taken place this off season. It's completely unjustified.

I was a skeptic when he was initially hired, but he has made bold promises and over delivered in my opinion.

BuSaPuNk
01-30-2014, 02:17 PM
One point on the lines thing- I know there are lots of Jays fans here. How often during Jays games do you notice football lines? I don't think erasing the lines is a big problem if the teams want to do it. Seattle doesn't want to do it, fair play to them. But they aren't an example of anything, they made a conscious decision to leave the lines on the field. Tim L is saying they'll be removed, and it doesn't seem like that is hard to do)

Baseball and Football have separate turf that's laid in Rogers Centre.

Dave67
01-30-2014, 02:17 PM
I don't see it. One is mass market, the other is a niche play. It's not the same customer base or business dynamic.

It was talked about extensively the last time Toronto made noises about an NFL team. I don't know if I could even find the old articles about it, but the NFL did not want to be seen as damaging the CFL. The solid existence of the CFL is beneficial to the NFL. It gives players a place to play and keep their skills up, it gives players a place to make a small living, CFL players do make the leap into or back into the NFL.

ManUtd4ever
01-30-2014, 02:19 PM
I agree they are vested in the CFL, but I don't think you can equate the Argos to the CFL as a whole, nor use the health of an Argos franchise as a bellwether of their ability to run a much larger operation.

I agree, but it's irrelevant. The NFL only cares about public perception.

molenshtain
01-30-2014, 02:22 PM
anyone know how the whitecaps get on playing at the same time as the lions?

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 02:23 PM
It's not a stretch of the imagination to say that MLSE (Larry) would take the hit for a struggling Argos team to make up for it with an NFL team.


See Leafs to Marlies relationship. How long were the roadrunners here? Marlies are here for more than being a successful AHL franchise. It benefits the bigger team.

ag futbol
01-30-2014, 02:25 PM
I think you're being overly critical of Leiweke considering the unprecedented transformation that has taken place this off season. It's completely unjustified.

I was a skeptic when he was initially hired, but he has made bold promises and over delivered in my opinion.

I agree, but it's irrelevant. The NFL only cares about public perception.
Let me tie this all together.

I drew the comparison in some other thread, but I’ll use it again: This is the equivalent of telling your kids on Christmas morning you’re getting a divorce, sandwiched right between the new PS4 and X-Box.
He knew this was coming, he just held onto it until the fan base became completely tone-deaf. If he had dropped this prior to the DPs coming, people would have fallen off a cliff.

So to draw the comparison to the NFL, I would say they are concerned about the "perception", but perception is not reality. So if they want come in - not so sure they are, but beside the point - they'll sell you on the fact it doesn't matter even if it does. It will impact the Argos on some level no matter what.

molenshtain
01-30-2014, 02:29 PM
Whitecaps and Lions play on artificial turf.

So like the Sounders and Seahawks.

I meant in terms of lines on the field. I don't think I've ever seen the whitecaps play with lines on the field. although maybe I'm just watching wrong games.

notthesun
01-30-2014, 02:32 PM
Do you see any Italian DP on our roster? Not that I care, but it's one example of many.

What? He went after Gilardino. He said they were looking for an Italian DP and they did.

Areathrasher
01-30-2014, 02:32 PM
The markings can be removed, it just takes them time to basically power wash the stuff off and repaint. But that's only the case for pure turf, grass doesn't respond as well, which is where the green paint comes it.

Regarding the condition of the surface: to clarify, I'm talking about a situation where the solution has worked and the environment is comparable (football, overlapping schedule, lots of games). If you can think of one, please fire away.

There isn’t a direct comparison of a ground share between Soccer and NFL/CFL that has worked. We know that. It’s not a point of contention. What is the point of contention is if a solution that has worked in another situation could be used as the basis of making TFC/Argos in BMO viable.

TL said yesterday that rugby is tougher on a surface than CFL. That comment was laughed at by various people on various platforms. I showed in a previous post a couple of pages back that rugby can do quite the damage to a playing surface and in my opinion a game of rugby will do more damage to a surface than a CFL game would as rugby covers more ground.

So if you looked at the pictures you can see the damage a ground share between soccer and rugby can cause to a pitch. Now, what about a stadium that is shared by rugby and soccer and never has any issues?


Dan Duffy about the Desso reinforced natural grass pitch: “We average 54 games a season here on our Desso GrassMaster pitch, plus training sessions, accommodating a mixture of domestic rugby and football, Eurioopean Cup and International fixtures in addition to County league and cup games, IRB Youth World rugby fixtures, corporate events and music concerts

The ground in question there is Swansea’s Liberty Stadium. The Ospreys and Swansea FC play home games during the same time period during the same wet and dull Welsh Winters and haven’t had issues with quality of the playing surfaces.

http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/swansea-fc-uk (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/swansea-fc-uk)


They achieved this by using a hybrid surface, appropriate scheduling and a world class ground staff. If TFC can follow the Swansea’s best practice, I think a BMO ground share has the potential to work or at the very least not be the disaster everyone seems to think it would be. I talked to a few Swansea fans on another soccer forum and they said there has never been an issue.

I’m strictly talking quality of playing surface. Not markings and not retractable stands or sightlines.

That’s my longwinded 2 cents.

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 02:33 PM
I meant in terms of lines on the field. I don't think I've ever seen the whitecaps play with lines on the field. although maybe I'm just watching wrong games.

But you've must of seen or heard commentators complain of missed balls, passes, shots because of the turf...

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 02:34 PM
If the NFL comes, you can kiss the Argos goodbye.

If you kiss the Argos goodbye, you can kiss the national TV contract goodbye.

You kiss the national TV contract goodbye, you can kiss the CFL goodbye.


But I honestly think they they would prop the Argos up for a long time if it meant getting an NFL team.

Free Argos tix coming to a season near you...

Mulder
01-30-2014, 02:38 PM
Tim can say whatever he wants. I want to see a example of this. And there isn't any.

Not only will lines be an issue but on field advertising that is all over the field in the CFL.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qdo81rTkzOE/UeFvEDoAT-I/AAAAAAAAumk/xvPC5ZJG57U/s1600/IMG_4703.JPG

Advertising is another non-issue. See Edmonton with real grass.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Commonwealth_Stadium,_Edmonton,_August_2005.j pg

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 02:40 PM
So hey...

how is this going to help the 2026 World Cup bid?


Done deal. We GOT IT! I'm making shirts for it as I type!:smilielol5:

molenshtain
01-30-2014, 02:43 PM
But you've must of seen or heard commentators complain of missed balls, passes, shots because of the turf...

truthfully I turn off the commentary for lions and whitecaps games, TSN commentary is fairly pitiful. But I played on turf for years and I don't recall having many of those problems

ag futbol
01-30-2014, 02:44 PM
What? He went after Gilardino. He said they were looking for an Italian DP and they did.
Look at the statement and answer from the press conference with Anthony Totera. I'm not talking about the overall saga, I'm talking about that day in the press room. Totera literally responded "that's it??" to the Leiweke's answer it was so affirmative. Leiweke said nothing, no conditionals, not a thing. Left you with the absolute impression they were 100% committed to doing it.

Trying to get an Italian DP and actually committing to getting one is different. Would they have liked an Italian DP? Sure. Were they committed to that above other things? no. But that's not the perception you took away from hearing that interaction. So it's spin, pure and simple. He starts with something, shapes it, spins it, turns it to whatever suits his needs.

He gave an unconditional answer and passed on an opportunity to clarify.

BuSaPuNk
01-30-2014, 02:45 PM
Advertising is another non-issue. See Edmonton with real grass.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Commonwealth_Stadium,_Edmonton,_August_2005.j pg

Even FC Edmonton seems to have a problem hiding just lines at Clarke Stadium. And the term experiment to remove the lines is used. So not sure if the technology that Tim L speaks of is even available.

http://www.fcedmonton.com/news/Experiments-Underway-at-Clarke


News that will get supporters of FC Edmonton very excited: Experiments are underway to see if there’s a way to get rid of the football lines on the Clarke Stadium turf for soccer matches.News that will disappoint FC Edmonton supporters: So far, the experiments aren’t going that well.
At training on Tuesday, the “00” yard markings on one of the goal lines were taken out by green paint. Because the football lines are sewn into the turf, they can’t be erased — but, theoretically, they could be painted over. Then, that paint can be removed when a football game is played on the surface.
On Monday, a patch of the turf was painted over in a special green paint to see if there’s a way that the white football lines can be hidden during NASL games and other soccer matches held at Clarke.
But, the reviews from FC Edmonton’s coach Colin Miller and the players weren’t all that positive. A day after the paint was applied to the test patch, the turf had matted down and become very hard — and sticky, too. There were definite ridges where the painted turf met the non-treated areas.
“It’s dangerous if it’s that sticky and you have it all over the pitch,” said Miller.
At least it’s a sign that the City of Edmonton, which administers the stadium, understands the clash of white football lines and yellow soccer lines is a problem. It also looks awful on the broadcasts. But, in at least one home game this season, the line confusion has worked to FC Edmonton’s advantage, when Atlanta keeper Joe Nasco was sent off for handling the ball outside the penalty area. The white football lines led him to believe he was still in the area, when in fact he was looking at the 20-yard football line, not the yellow soccer 18-yard limit on his box.
The turf is near the end of its 10-year lifespan. Of course, this move to try and figure out ways to temporarily get rid of the football lines will only make fans worried that the city will try and squeeze more lifespan out of the bad turf.
Miller said there really is only one way to fix the playing surface.
“You drop a hand grenade in the middle of the pitch, then you put down a new surface. That would be ideal.”
Edmonton’s first fall-season NASL home game is Aug. 11, with San Antonio providing the opposition.

ensco
01-30-2014, 02:48 PM
General public doesn't care.

That's why the Argos to BMO is done deal and TFC supporters will have to live with it.

Listening to the FAN last night Argos fans are ecstatic at leaving the SkyDome and it's only a handful of TFC fans who care it seems.

So there will be lines, messed up turf, etc.

And there's no NFL team coming so they'll expand the stadium - using taxpayer money - and MLSE will host the "biggest" Winter Classic in 2017 in terms of hype, not size. And then play 3-4 games a year in the Stadium Series - Montreal vs Toronto, Ottawa vs Toronto, Detroit vs Toronto - and make a killing for each game.

That's how they'll recoup the money spent on the signings of Bradley and Defoe. Because at the end of the day if the team wins and makes the playoffs regularly, lines/ads on a pitch, messed up grass or bringing back turf won't matter.

Yup!

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 02:51 PM
truthfully I turn off the commentary for lions and whitecaps games, TSN commentary is fairly pitiful. But I played on turf for years and I don't recall having many of those problems

It's the well documented problem of play off the surface. You shouldn't need commentary to see it. Come watch the opener at Joe's I'll gladly point it out to you.

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 02:54 PM
But look at the statement and answer from the press conference with Anthony Totera.

Totera literally responded "that's it??" to the Leiweke's answer it was so affirmative. Leiweke said nothing, no conditionals, not a thing. Left you with the absolute impression they were committed to doing it.

Trying to get an itialian DP and actually getting one is different. Would they have liked an Italian DP? Sure. Were they committed to that above other things? no. But that's not the perception you took away from hearing that interaction. So it's spin, pure and simple.

He gave an unconditional answer and passed on an opportunity to clarify.

Oooooooo that's not a subject I'd want to talk about either if I cared about what the community that hurt that deal thought.

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 02:54 PM
Even FC Edmonton seems to have a problem hiding just lines at Clarke Stadium. And the term experiment to remove the lines is used. So not sure if the technology that Tim L speaks of is even available.

http://www.fcedmonton.com/news/Experiments-Underway-at-Clarke

Saw it. Beat me to it.

molenshtain
01-30-2014, 02:59 PM
It's the well documented problem of play off the surface. You shouldn't need commentary to see it. Come watch the opener at Joe's I'll gladly point it out to you.

if your talking about balls bouncing and skidding off turf quicker than grass than that's fair. but my original point was that I've never seen the whitecaps play with lines or ads on the field, so either they have a way around it or I'm just not watching closely enough.

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 03:16 PM
if your talking about balls bouncing and skidding off turf quicker than grass than that's fair. but my original point was that I've never seen the whitecaps play with lines or ads on the field, so either they have a way around it or I'm just not watching closely enough.


No because turf is easier for that. But turf is bush league.

mowe
01-30-2014, 03:17 PM
There isn’t a direct comparison of a ground share between Soccer and NFL/CFL that has worked. We know that. It’s not a point of contention. What is the point of contention is if a solution that has worked in another situation could be used as the basis of making TFC/Argos in BMO viable.

TL said yesterday that rugby is tougher on a surface than CFL. That comment was laughed at by various people on various platforms. I showed in a previous post a couple of pages back that rugby can do quite the damage to a playing surface and in my opinion a game of rugby will do more damage to a surface than a CFL game would as rugby covers more ground.

So if you looked at the pictures you can see the damage a ground share between soccer and rugby can cause to a pitch. Now, what about a stadium that is shared by rugby and soccer and never has any issues?



The ground in question there is Swansea’s Liberty Stadium. The Ospreys and Swansea FC play home games during the same time period during the same wet and dull Welsh Winters and haven’t had issues with quality of the playing surfaces.

http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/swansea-fc-uk (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/swansea-fc-uk)


They achieved this by using a hybrid surface, appropriate scheduling and a world class ground staff. If TFC can follow the Swansea’s best practice, I think a BMO ground share has the potential to work or at the very least not be the disaster everyone seems to think it would be. I talked to a few Swansea fans on another soccer forum and they said there has never been an issue.

I’m strictly talking quality of playing surface. Not markings and not retractable stands or sightlines.

That’s my longwinded 2 cents.

Great post, nice to see some facts involved in the discussion. MLSE will have to invest in a top class groundsman to look over the field. As long as TL shows a commitment to ensuring the pitch quality remains top notch I'm fine with this Argos move.

notthesun
01-30-2014, 03:18 PM
Look at the statement and answer from the press conference with Anthony Totera. I'm not talking about the overall saga, I'm talking about that day in the press room. Totera literally responded "that's it??" to the Leiweke's answer it was so affirmative. Leiweke said nothing, no conditionals, not a thing. Left you with the absolute impression they were 100% committed to doing it.

Trying to get an Italian DP and actually committing to getting one is different.

Then we should agree, because he didn't commit to getting one as far as I know.

Totera's question was, quote: "Are you committed to try and look for a quality Italian DP to bring here". To which Leiweke said "Yes."

Leiweke did exactly what he said he would. If Totera asked "are you committed to signing an Italian DP" and he had answered the same, it would be a different story.

He did, however, actually commit to signing two DPs. And he signed three.

Sorry, but in my opinion if you see spin here it's because you're reading it into it.

BuSaPuNk
01-30-2014, 03:18 PM
if your talking about balls bouncing and skidding off turf quicker than grass than that's fair. but my original point was that I've never seen the whitecaps play with lines or ads on the field, so either they have a way around it or I'm just not watching closely enough.



Surface
Polytan LigaTurf 240 RS+ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytan)
(FIFA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA) recommended 2 Star)




Again probably two different turfs being used the same as at Rogers Centre

molenshtain
01-30-2014, 03:22 PM
No because turf is easier for that. But turf is bush league.

but Seattle and New England have turf and they don't really take off lines off the field when they don't have too. I'm just wondering what the difference is. what did the 'caps figure out that neither Seattle or New England haven't?

ah. never mind. I see BuSaPunk has answered my question.

Beach_Red
01-30-2014, 03:25 PM
Billy articulated it well. The NFL would not want to be perceived as having Argos blood on their hands, and image is everything in the NFL.

Then how come they've never had a problem with their own franchises abandoning cities? Can you give one example of when the NFL turned down money because it might make them look bad? Why would the Argos going out of business being any worse for the NFL than LA losing the Rams? And the Raiders?

I don't think it'll ever be an issue because the NFL is the opposite of the NHL. The NHL for decades was looking at getting more teams in more markets and didn't care who owned them. The NFL is only interested in ownerships, but the teams can play anywhere they want, they can move all over the country. But the ownership matters. The NFL isn't coming to Toronto, not because of the Argos, but because there's no single billionaire putting up 30% of the money. If someone stepped up there'd be a team here tomorrow.

billyfly
01-30-2014, 03:40 PM
I agree they are vested in the CFL, but I don't think you can equate the Argos to the CFL as a whole, nor use the health of an Argos franchise as a bellwether of their ability to run a much larger operation.


Argos = TSN TV deal.

No Argos = No Deal (or at a lot less).

billyfly
01-30-2014, 03:41 PM
The building is not empty, CSA has its offices in there. I think that is a big wrinkle in the redevelp model.

Agree Phil. The CSA if it has ANY power (or balls) says something or gets something out of this deal.

Canada's Soccer Stadium means nothing obviously.

Ron Manager
01-30-2014, 03:42 PM
There isn’t a direct comparison of a ground share between Soccer and NFL/CFL that has worked. We know that. It’s not a point of contention. What is the point of contention is if a solution that has worked in another situation could be used as the basis of making TFC/Argos in BMO viable.

TL said yesterday that rugby is tougher on a surface than CFL. That comment was laughed at by various people on various platforms. I showed in a previous post a couple of pages back that rugby can do quite the damage to a playing surface and in my opinion a game of rugby will do more damage to a surface than a CFL game would as rugby covers more ground.

So if you looked at the pictures you can see the damage a ground share between soccer and rugby can cause to a pitch. Now, what about a stadium that is shared by rugby and soccer and never has any issues?



The ground in question there is Swansea’s Liberty Stadium. The Ospreys and Swansea FC play home games during the same time period during the same wet and dull Welsh Winters and haven’t had issues with quality of the playing surfaces.

http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/swansea-fc-uk (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/swansea-fc-uk)


They achieved this by using a hybrid surface, appropriate scheduling and a world class ground staff. If TFC can follow the Swansea’s best practice, I think a BMO ground share has the potential to work or at the very least not be the disaster everyone seems to think it would be. I talked to a few Swansea fans on another soccer forum and they said there has never been an issue.

I’m strictly talking quality of playing surface. Not markings and not retractable stands or sightlines.

That’s my longwinded 2 cents.

This is an interesting and reassuring article. Especially worth noting that Swansea are a keep it on the ground sort of team so pitch quality is essential to them.

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 03:42 PM
Then how come they've never had a problem with their own franchises abandoning cities? Can you give one example of when the NFL turned down money because it might make them look bad? Why would the Argos going out of business being any worse for the NFL than LA losing the Rams? And the Raiders?

I don't think it'll ever be an issue because the NFL is the opposite of the NHL. The NHL for decades was looking at getting more teams in more markets and didn't care who owned them. The NFL is only interested in ownerships, but the teams can play anywhere they want, they can move all over the country. But the ownership matters. The NFL isn't coming to Toronto, not because of the Argos, but because there's no single billionaire putting up 30% of the money. If someone stepped up there'd be a team here tomorrow.

Can someone tell me if the CFL is the same as the NFL in ownership rules insofar as they can't be owned by board? Is that why Larry is so involved with the "possible" Argos deal?

Waggy
01-30-2014, 03:47 PM
Can someone tell me if the CFL is the same as the NFL in ownership rules insofar as they can't be owned by board? Is that why Larry is so involved with the "possible" Argos deal?

Put it this way, the same guy owns the Argos and the Lions. You think the CFL is going to turn down any well healed owner who actually wants to invest in the league?

Fort York Redcoat
01-30-2014, 04:03 PM
Put it this way, the same guy owns the Argos and the Lions. You think the CFL is going to turn down any well healed owner who actually wants to invest in the league?

Well then why is Larry name dropped in there? Why not buy them outright as MLSE?

molenshtain
01-30-2014, 04:09 PM
Larry's talked about buying stuff on his own for years now. maybe he sees it as a stepping stone to later buying a team in England like he always wanted.

Beach_Red
01-30-2014, 04:12 PM
Well then why is Larry name dropped in there? Why not buy them outright as MLSE?

That's a good question. Why is there any of this speculation? Why does everything seem to have some other motive? MLSE want to renovate a stadium and claim they will be spending their own money why don't they just do it? Unless they don't want to spend their own money....

ag futbol
01-30-2014, 04:20 PM
There isn’t a direct comparison of a ground share between Soccer and NFL/CFL that has worked. We know that. It’s not a point of contention. What is the point of contention is if a solution that has worked in another situation could be used as the basis of making TFC/Argos in BMO viable.

TL said yesterday that rugby is tougher on a surface than CFL. That comment was laughed at by various people on various platforms. I showed in a previous post a couple of pages back that rugby can do quite the damage to a playing surface and in my opinion a game of rugby will do more damage to a surface than a CFL game would as rugby covers more ground.

So if you looked at the pictures you can see the damage a ground share between soccer and rugby can cause to a pitch. Now, what about a stadium that is shared by rugby and soccer and never has any issues?



The ground in question there is Swansea’s Liberty Stadium. The Ospreys and Swansea FC play home games during the same time period during the same wet and dull Welsh Winters and haven’t had issues with quality of the playing surfaces.

http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/swansea-fc-uk (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/swansea-fc-uk)


They achieved this by using a hybrid surface, appropriate scheduling and a world class ground staff. If TFC can follow the Swansea’s best practice, I think a BMO ground share has the potential to work or at the very least not be the disaster everyone seems to think it would be. I talked to a few Swansea fans on another soccer forum and they said there has never been an issue.

I’m strictly talking quality of playing surface. Not markings and not retractable stands or sightlines.

That’s my longwinded 2 cents.
Certainly a good start. Can't say I'm entirely convinced, but I appreciate the info on Swansea / Ospreys.

Rugby is hard on the surface, but I would say football puts more pressure on certain areas of the field. I guess one redeeming feature of the CFL is that because it's 3 downs, you have less running plays up the middle for 2-3 yards where everybody digs in and chews up the grass.

OgtheDim
01-30-2014, 04:26 PM
Advertising is another non-issue. See Edmonton with real grass.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Commonwealth_Stadium,_Edmonton,_August_2005.j pg

Which is one reason why they ditched grass for turn in 2010 - more advertising opportunities.

MLSE will advertise for CFL.

OgtheDim
01-30-2014, 04:29 PM
Even FC Edmonton seems to have a problem hiding just lines at Clarke Stadium. And the term experiment to remove the lines is used. So not sure if the technology that Tim L speaks of is even available.

http://www.fcedmonton.com/news/Experiments-Underway-at-Clarke

Reading the article shows that the situation in Edmonton was not what is being talked about here. The numbers were sown into the field.

Kaz
01-30-2014, 04:32 PM
Well then why is Larry name dropped in there? Why not buy them outright as MLSE?
Because the board apparently already said no... and so now they are trying to get votes, or can do it on his own.

TFC07
01-30-2014, 04:39 PM
The happiest team in this market right now... the Toronto Blue Jays.

Followed by the Argos and TFC.

The Leafs would probably in between the Jays and Argos but this deal will help them.

Don't forget soccer fans (non-TFC fans) who probably get to see more random soccer games at Rogers Centre (Like Brazil-Chile game) in the future since Rogers need new tenants once Argos and couple of others are gone when grass is installed.

Areathrasher
01-30-2014, 04:56 PM
Certainly a good start. Can't say I'm entirely convinced, but I appreciate the info on Swansea / Ospreys.

Rugby is hard on the surface, but I would say football puts more pressure on certain areas of the field. I guess one redeeming feature of the CFL is that because it's 3 downs, you have less running plays up the middle for 2-3 yards where everybody digs in and chews up the grass.

This is my last post on this and it's not directed specifically at you but more in general.

Damaged caused by Gridiron

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfFGzY1CYAAGCJP.jpg

Damaged caused by rugby

http://wigan.illarterate.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/dw_pitch11.jpg

Not entirely the same but similar and concerning enough.

Liberty Stadium surface

http://www.liberty-stadium.com/cms/assets/CardiffSept08.jpg

And if Liberty Stadium isn't enough of a sample size. These grounds also apply

http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/watford-fc-uk (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/watford-fc-uk)
http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/cardiff-city-stadium-uk (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/cardiff-city-stadium-uk)
http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/huddersfield-town-giants-uk (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/huddersfield-town-giants-uk)

And to a lesser extent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadium_Municipal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadium_Municipal) Toulouse Soccer and Rugby Clubs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stade_Mayol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stade_Mayol) Toulon Rugby, Soccer and the Toulon youth tournaments

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomond_Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomond_Park) Munster, Shannon and Bohemians Rugby. Irish national teams and Limerick City FC


Keep an eye on the grounds linked during March and April as there will be fixture congestion given the soccer and rugby schedules. See how the pitches hold up.

Ron Manager
01-30-2014, 05:18 PM
I think the bigger issue in Toronto would be September, October and November when the temperatures drop below freezing and it's wet, rainy and cold.

I think the UK sees its fair share of cold, soggy pitches. You be hard pressed to convince me we see more rain in TO than Wales does.

barticusz
01-30-2014, 05:25 PM
Ayresome Park is better than BMO field.

Whoop, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter where a possible NFL field will be. Adding the Argo's into the equation for BMO field will surely help to solidify a deal in order to get a retrofit started, and it adds yet another tenant into the mix, something I'm sure the City wants. My thought is that the MLSE angle in this is as follows: MLSE takes the financial hit of buying the Argo's to ensure their survival, in return they will play out of a retrofitted stadium because they cannot play there as-is. The benefit to the City is addtional revenue from the stadium (i'm assuming both TFC and Argos pay rent), secure ownership of a sports franchise that the City does not want to lose. In return the City grants approval for the retrofit and will also provide some financial "corporate welfare" aid to the project. I do think that MLSE will pay back in time but they won't bare all the costs up front.

OgtheDim
01-30-2014, 05:25 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff#Rainfall

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto#Climate


741.6 inches of precip for Cardiff between May to Nov compared to 652.8 for Toronto.


Ugh...this is getting esoteric.

ensco
01-30-2014, 05:38 PM
I think that there is a vast gulf between what Leiweke might want to do, and what his shareholders will allow him to do.

That hockey rights deal changed everything, and until and unless Rogers sell a meaningful part of those rights to TSN, this is going to be gridlocked.

I don't think Rogers will agree to anything CFL-related whatsoever, unless Rogers wants, and gets, a real slice of the rights to CFL games.

So all of this is dreaming in technicolour, for the moment anyway.

Areathrasher
01-30-2014, 05:52 PM
Weather conditions are weather conditions. All outdoor stadiums are susceptible to them, it's how the ground staff deal with them that matters.

backbeat
01-30-2014, 06:19 PM
I think that there is a vast gulf between what Leiweke might want to do, and what his shareholders will allow him to do.

That hockey rights deal changed everything, and until and unless Rogers sell a meaningful part of those rights to TSN, this is going to be gridlocked.

I don't think Rogers will agree to anything CFL-related whatsoever, unless Rogers wants, and gets, a real slice of the rights to CFL games.

So all of this is dreaming in technicolour, for the moment anyway.


Then why would TL be talking publicly that way? What do you know that he doesn't?

Ryan1984
01-30-2014, 07:02 PM
I have been to Jays games and been able to still make out some of the lines on the field but the advertising and argos logo you can never make out on the field so they must have a way of getting rid of it. That being said I would think getting lines off of grass would be a lot harder then getting them off of fieldturf.

ensco
01-30-2014, 07:09 PM
Then why would TL be talking publicly that way? What do you know that he doesn't?

I know nothing, other than that one of Bell or Rogers turned down a proposal to buy the Argos last week at the board.

As to why Leiweke talks big, that's how he rolls. Read up on his LA NFL obsession. He talked like it was snap-of-the-fingers imminent for several years.

Redcoe15
01-30-2014, 07:31 PM
It's one thing to go out and spend millions on player aquisitions using other people's money - all made easier after someone else did the dirty work in clearing out salaries and freeing up cap space.

It's quite another to talk about how you're going to bring in a CFL team that the vast majority of members here wanted no part of to begin with, yet also saying such a move would not alter the soccer experience one iota, even tossing in a new roof for good measure, when you haven't got a dime of yours invested in ownership.

Bottom line here is that Phineas Tim can promise us everything, in regards to protecting, and even enhancing, the soccer aesthetics at BMO Field for TFC and Canada's national soccer teams if and when the Argos move in, all he wants. But it's going to be the board of governors within ML$E that will ultimatly determine what kind of renovating takes place there. And what they determine, cost efficiency wise, may not likely end up with whatever smoke Phineas Tim is blowing at us.

habstfc
01-30-2014, 07:40 PM
Rugby is harder on grass than CFL would be in my opinion. Rugby has a smaller field length wise and 15 players as opposed to 12 in cfl. Also cfl is a passing league and not as many running plays which would tear up the field. I am less concerned than many of you on here about the condition of the pitch for TFC. There may be 2 or 3 games a year where the pitch may not be at it's best for TFC due to over use but that's life. It's a small trade off for getting a roof that everyones been whining about for better atmosphere and relief from the elements. I don't think with a hybrid pitch it will be that bad. Grass is very resilient and grows rapidly, with good groundscare and proper scheduling with a minimum of 5 days after cfl game before mls game.

I don't see more than 1 yearly leafs game either. It would be alot to ask leafs ssh that are spending big money on seats to freeze their asses off more than one game a year.

habstfc
01-30-2014, 07:46 PM
It's quite another to talk about how you're going to bring in a CFL team that the vast majority of members here wanted no part of to begin with

Bottom line here is that Phineas Tim can promise us everything, in regards to protecting, and even enhancing, the soccer aesthetics at BMO Field for TFC and Canada's national soccer teams if and when the Argos move in, all he wants. But it's going to be the board of governors within ML$E that will ultimatly determine what kind of renovating takes place there. It's alot to assume we as supporters of a mls team have any say in anything to do with the club.

I don't think he's throwing around that 120 million figure for shits and giigles, I'm pretty sure mlse already has the approval from bell/rogers to spend it.

ensco
01-30-2014, 08:25 PM
It's alot to assume we as supporters of a mls team have any say in anything to do with the club.

I don't think he's throwing around that 120 million figure for shits and giigles, I'm pretty sure mlse already has the approval from bell/rogers to spend it.

I don't think he totally made that up either.

But any "agreements" between Bell and Rogers went out he window the day Rogers did the NHL deal.

Wagner
01-30-2014, 08:34 PM
Rugby is harder on grass than CFL would be in my opinion. Rugby has a smaller field length wise and 15 players as opposed to 12 in cfl. Also cfl is a passing league and not as many running plays which would tear up the field. I am less concerned than many of you on here about the condition of the pitch for TFC. There may be 2 or 3 games a year where the pitch may not be at it's best for TFC due to over use but that's life. It's a small trade off for getting a roof that everyones been whining about for better atmosphere and relief from the elements. I don't think with a hybrid pitch it will be that bad. Grass is very resilient and grows rapidly, with good groundscare and proper scheduling with a minimum of 5 days after cfl game before mls game.

I don't see more than 1 yearly leafs game either. It would be alot to ask leafs ssh that are spending big money on seats to freeze their asses off more than one game a year.

Rugby is actually not too bad on turf. Rugby has a culture of caring about the pitch.
The hardest sport on turf is pointy ball.

Rugby is all over the pitch. Where pointyball is between the hashmarks.
if you watch a NFL game late in the season, if they lay sod in nov/dec...it's typically just between the hashes.

These are the findings of the Guelph Turfgrass Institute and the Sports Turf Association.

http://www.guelphturfgrass.ca/

and

http://www.sportsturfassociation.com/

Shakes McQueen
01-30-2014, 08:47 PM
But any "agreements" between Bell and Rogers went out he window the day Rogers did the NHL deal.

Do you have inside information to this effect, or this an assumption on your part?

I'm sure there's some mutual enmity between Rogers and Bell, but I've always assumed that. They are direct competitors in pretty much every market they participate in.

If you believe Cathal Kelly's story about the TFC signings, the massive Bradley deal was consummated over the course of only a couple of weeks - meaning it would post-date the NHL deal - and Leiweke says he received pretty much no resistance to that sudden request, from the board. And that's despite the fact that (I'm pretty sure) TSN has exclusive rights to MLS in Canada.

I mean, the NHL deal might have lead to some swearing in offices with the doors closed, or some sharp glares over the conference table, but is there any substantial evidence that it's caused a breakdown in the MLSE board's ability to work together? These are still businesspeople, and they still own a joint stake in the success of all of these teams/stadia/whatever else is in their portfolio.

I ask that question honestly, because I don't closely follow the latest rumours from the newspapers, or whatever - but I've heard nothing about a breakdown in the Bogers working relationship at MLSE, prior to these posts from you.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
01-30-2014, 08:48 PM
Do we have any specific cases of teams that use the kind of hybrid "reinforced" pitch we would be using, also play rugby/football on the same ground, and the kind of damage their pitch suffers?

I'm sure regular grass probably gets beat up pretty quickly, but I've heard the "hybrid" pitches are pretty resilient.

- Scott

ensco
01-30-2014, 08:51 PM
Do you have inside information to this effect, or this an assumption on your part?

I'm sure there's some mutual enmity between Rogers and Bell, but I've always assumed that. They are direct competitors in pretty much every market they participate in.

If you believe Cathal Kelly's story about the TFC signings, the massive Bradley deal was consummated over the course of only a couple of weeks - meaning it would post-date the NHL deal - and Leiweke says he received pretty much no resistance to that sudden request, from the board. And that's despite the fact that (I'm pretty sure) TSN has exclusive rights to MLS in Canada.

I mean, the NHL deal might have lead to some swearing in offices with the doors closed, or some sharp glares over the conference table, but is there any substantial evidence that it's caused a breakdown in the MLSE board's ability to work together? These are still businesspeople, and they still own a joint stake in the success of all of these teams/stadia/whatever else is in their portfolio.

I ask that question honestly, because I don't closely follow the latest rumours from the newspapers, or whatever - but I've heard nothing about a breakdown in the Bogers working relationship at MLSE, prior to these posts from you.

- Scott

I've got no source at all. Just my speculation.

But I know something about boards, and I see the signing of players as a certain level of cooperation, and the acquisition of teams or the building of stadiums (i.e. the entering of new business lines for large dollar amounts) as a very different level of cooperation.

It's really the team acquisition piece that I see as something that Rogers can't have any sincere interest in. They absolutely have no commercial interest to protect in getting involved, and they have a commercial interest in making the Argo situation worse.

Areathrasher
01-30-2014, 08:53 PM
Rugby is actually not too bad on turf. Rugby has a culture of caring about the pitch.
The hardest sport on turf is pointy ball.

Rugby is all over the pitch. Where pointyball is between the hashmarks.
if you watch a NFL game late in the season, if they lay sod in nov/dec...it's typically just between the hashes.

These are the findings of the Guelph Turfgrass Institute and the Sports Turf Association.

http://www.guelphturfgrass.ca/

and

http://www.sportsturfassociation.com/

Would damage all over the playing surface not be worse than in one specific area? A CFL game could damage down the middle while a rugby game can damage goal mouth, corners, side line, centre circle and anywhere else a scrum, ruck or maul has taken place.

Also I've had a browse through both those sites and cant find what you are referring to? Just lots of stuff about fertilizer :lol:

tfcleeds
01-30-2014, 08:57 PM
Would damage all over the playing surface not be worse than in one specific area? A CFL game could damage down the middle while a rugby game can damage goal mouth, corners, side line, centre circle and anywhere else a scrum, ruck or maul has taken place.

Also I've had a browse through both those sites and cant find what you are referring to? Just lots of stuff about fertilizer :lol:

Sure, but in rugby, you don't have 300 lb. behemoths either. At least, not usually anyway.

Yohan
01-30-2014, 09:03 PM
Sure, but in rugby, you don't have 300 lb. behemoths either. At least, not usually anyway.
http://www.radiomontblanc.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/sebastien-chabal-.jpg

tfcleeds
01-30-2014, 09:12 PM
^Haha, Chabal's one of my favourite rugby players of all time!

Areathrasher
01-30-2014, 09:13 PM
Stupid double post

Areathrasher
01-30-2014, 09:14 PM
A 300 pound DT or whatever position applying pressure on the surface for what? A total of 3-4 mins that they are actually doing something on the pitch. As opposed to a 230-250 pound guy running around for 60-80mins.

Like think about Chabal. How much ground does he cover during a game as opposed to Orlando Franklin on the Broncos?

tfcleeds
01-30-2014, 09:18 PM
A 300 pound DT or whatever position applying pressure on the surface for what? A total of 3-4 mins that they are actually doing something on the pitch. As opposed to a 230-250 pound guy running around for 60-80mins.

Like think about Chabal. How much ground does he cover during a game as opposed to Orlando Franklin on the Broncos?

Between the O-line and the D-line, you're talking about guys that are going to make marks on the middle of the field the whole game. I honestly laughed when TL said that CFL football wouldn't affect the field as much as rugby would. He honestly should know better.

ManUtd4ever
01-30-2014, 09:20 PM
I don't think he totally made that up either.

But any "agreements" between Bell and Rogers went out he window the day Rogers did the NHL deal.

There was talk about the initial DP commitment of 50 million dollars being in jeopardy after the Rogers/NHL deal, and it ended up being a 100 million dollar commitment when the Bradley scenario unfolded unexpectedly.

All the shareholders of MLSE stand to benefit from the proposed renovations to BMO Field considering the additional revenue streams that will be generated for TFC and the Leafs in particular. Even if one of Rogers or Bell decide to purchase majority control of MLSE before the renovation project is undertaken, I don't see how the predetermined financial commitment will be in jeopardy. An investment of $120 million dollars is mere chump change for corporate giants like Rogers and Bell.

ManUtd4ever
01-30-2014, 09:29 PM
Do we have any specific cases of teams that use the kind of hybrid "reinforced" pitch we would be using, also play rugby/football on the same ground, and the kind of damage their pitch suffers?

I'm sure regular grass probably gets beat up pretty quickly, but I've heard the "hybrid" pitches are pretty resilient.

- Scott

This was a very informative post...


There isn’t a direct comparison of a ground share between Soccer and NFL/CFL that has worked. We know that. It’s not a point of contention. What is the point of contention is if a solution that has worked in another situation could be used as the basis of making TFC/Argos in BMO viable.

TL said yesterday that rugby is tougher on a surface than CFL. That comment was laughed at by various people on various platforms. I showed in a previous post a couple of pages back that rugby can do quite the damage to a playing surface and in my opinion a game of rugby will do more damage to a surface than a CFL game would as rugby covers more ground.

So if you looked at the pictures you can see the damage a ground share between soccer and rugby can cause to a pitch. Now, what about a stadium that is shared by rugby and soccer and never has any issues?



The ground in question there is Swansea’s Liberty Stadium. The Ospreys and Swansea FC play home games during the same time period during the same wet and dull Welsh Winters and haven’t had issues with quality of the playing surfaces.

http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/swansea-fc-uk (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/swansea-fc-uk)


They achieved this by using a hybrid surface, appropriate scheduling and a world class ground staff. If TFC can follow the Swansea’s best practice, I think a BMO ground share has the potential to work or at the very least not be the disaster everyone seems to think it would be. I talked to a few Swansea fans on another soccer forum and they said there has never been an issue.

I’m strictly talking quality of playing surface. Not markings and not retractable stands or sightlines.

That’s my longwinded 2 cents.

PopePouri
01-30-2014, 09:50 PM
Sure, but in rugby, you don't have 300 lb. behemoths either. At least, not usually anyway.

Exactly, they're 250 lb. behemoths.

tfcleeds
01-30-2014, 10:08 PM
All I'm saying is, no one in this thread so far can come up with a precedent where a stadium share between a gridiron football team and a soccer team has resulted in a pristine pitch for soccer. At least in rugby, there are plenty of examples where the result hasn't been too bad (Swansea, Watford, Wigan, etc.) I would like to believe the technology exists where this won't be an issue, but the fact that no one can point to a hard and fast example is the reason this is worrisome for most people here.

Shakes McQueen
01-30-2014, 10:18 PM
All I'm saying is, no one in this thread so far can come up with a precedent where a stadium share between a gridiron football team and a soccer team has resulted in a pristine pitch for soccer. At least in rugby, there are plenty of examples where the result hasn't been too bad (Swansea, Watford, Wigan, etc.) I would like to believe the technology exists where this won't be an issue, but the fact that no one can point to a hard and fast example is the reason this is worrisome for most people here.

But as has been pointed out, a rugby game would arguably be HARDER on a pitch, becuse they play for more than 10-15 actual minutes a game, unlike gridiron football.

I'm sure we haven't seen any real examples of gridiron football and soccer sharing a grass pitch here, precisely because it's exceeedingly rare. Gridiron football isn't really played in Europe, and soccer is way behind American football in the United States. And most of the high-profile cases of ground sharing between football and soccer are NFL/MLS teams, where they both play on artificial turf as a result.

This is kind of uncharted territory for a pro football team and a pro soccer team to share a real, professionally managed and drained grass field (for at least a couple of months every year), which is why the rugby comparisons are probably more applicable - because we actually have numerous examples of professional rugby and soccer teams sharing real/hybrid grass fields.

- Scott

PopePouri
01-30-2014, 10:22 PM
All I'm saying is, no one in this thread so far can come up with a precedent where a stadium share between a gridiron football team and a soccer team has resulted in a pristine pitch for soccer. At least in rugby, there are plenty of examples where the result hasn't been too bad (Swansea, Watford, Wigan, etc.) I would like to believe the technology exists where this won't be an issue, but the fact that no one can point to a hard and fast example is the reason this is worrisome for most people here.

Sure, we'll be the first to go down this path but if we had to make comparisons, Rugby is the closest you're going to get especially with scrums, rucks and mauls.

MartinUtd
01-30-2014, 10:39 PM
I don't buy that rugby is harsher on grass than American football just because there's more game time. The two games are completely different in the way they are played, the distribution of players on the field and the type of downward pressure exerted into the ground by players of each respective sport.

With the exception of the scrum (particularly in rugby union) the players are pretty spread out whereas in a CFL game there will always be a concentration of players in the middle. Even if the play runs off to the side it's always resumed at the hash marks. Therefore a single part of the pitch is being used and worn repeatedly. Furthermore when the ball is snapped in a football game the offensive and defensive lines run into each other and collide. The D line is trying to cut through holes are plow over a guy while the offensive line is either trying to hold the D line and maintain a pocket for the QB or they're trying to drive the defensive back like in the case of a run play. In both scenarios the offensive lineman is actively trying to maintain a lower center of gravity than the man he's covering and in doing so he's digging his cleats into the turf and pushing. This doesn't happen in rugby anywhere close to the frequency that it happens in football and it needs to be considered before looking at what's happening at Swansea. Maybe a hybrid turf can stand up to a CFL game but it's thus far untested and the comparison to rugby only serves as a distraction.

ag futbol
01-30-2014, 10:41 PM
A 300 pound DT or whatever position applying pressure on the surface for what? A total of 3-4 mins that they are actually doing something on the pitch. As opposed to a 230-250 pound guy running around for 60-80mins.
I've seen this argument before. There are all kinds of ways to define "action" over the course of a game.

Believe it is relatively obvious the sport has a significant impact. Enough so where you see NFL teams have to re-sod areas of their fields.

Areathrasher
01-30-2014, 10:52 PM
I've seen this argument before. There are all kinds of ways to define "action" over the course of a game.

Believe it is relatively obvious the sport has a significant impact. Enough so where you see NFL teams have to re-sod areas of their fields.

I've never said that it doesn't have significant impact. Every single post I've made has been trying to speak to the fact that people are dismissing rugby comparisons too lightly.

You think re-sodding pitches is strictly confined to NFL?

TFC07
01-30-2014, 10:54 PM
What's sad about this issue is that we can use spend a lot of this money on things that will improve club even more like scouting, academy and "world class" staff instead of rushing to rebuild a stadium that is owned by the city.