PDA

View Full Version : 2014 Success



Wince
01-16-2014, 10:12 AM
What is the minimum that TFC can achieve this season for you to still consider the season a success, and walk away happy?

Signing better plays and managing the team better (which already seems to be happening), a sign that the ship has finally been righted?
More wins/points than last year? More wins/points than TFC has ever reached before?
Being in the playoff race late in the season?
Making the playoffs?
Supporter's Shield?
MLS Cup?
CCL?

Emphasis on MINIMUM achievement for this thread. For me, I'll settle for meaningful late season games, so being in the playoff hunt for me.

PopePouri
01-16-2014, 10:13 AM
Playoffs minimum.

Dreadlocks
01-16-2014, 10:14 AM
Playoffs and Canadian Champs minimum

MartinUtd
01-16-2014, 10:15 AM
Playoffs
CCL knock out stages
More goals scored than conceded

Yohan
01-16-2014, 10:17 AM
Playoffs and V Cup

And be above Montreal in standings ;)

flatpicker
01-16-2014, 10:17 AM
For me, I'll settle for meaningful late season games, so being in the playoff hunt for me.

We've had meaningful late season games before, and that did not make me feel any better. So we need to make the playoffs.

MartinUtd
01-16-2014, 10:19 AM
We've had meaningful late season games before, and that did not make me feel any better. So we need to make the playoffs.

Yeah, New York 2009 comes to mind.

tfcleeds
01-16-2014, 10:21 AM
It's season 8 - playoffs or bust. And yes, with the Shitecaps seemingly in disarray, and Limpact getting older, I'll be disappointed if we don't win the Canadian Championship.

JuliquE
01-16-2014, 10:38 AM
After our relatively successful run in the CCL, I've slowly come to believe that, for the long run, we should always prioritize/respect our domestic league, first (previously would have put CCL ahead of MLS).

That said, I think that barely making the playoffs, alone, would be a little embarrassing (given the new signings/vision).. but, I would content myself with getting that monkey off our back and a respectable run in the CCL, as an absolute minimum (knock-out rounds; as ever, I expect us to always be Canadian champions -- maybe that's just me; I can't imagine our side not always having a shot to play in the CCL). Alternatively, I would be happy with a deep/respectable run in the playoffs, even if we don't make it out of our group in CCL (would hold the team to a higher standard in 2015).

VoxPopuliCosmicum
01-16-2014, 10:39 AM
Playoffs
CCL knock out stages
More goals scored than conceded

+1 and, I would only add, more than 75% of available points in home games

OgtheDim
01-16-2014, 10:42 AM
Good thread idea...thanks.

I want 3 things to consider this year a success.

a) Playoffs

b) Voyaguers Cup

c) Change in atmosphere - supporters bring the hammer and the noise and then the team as a large group come over to the supporters end after a game, win or lose. Not just individually take a couple of steps past where they shake the refs hand near the centre circle and clap while Osorio comes all the way and Rey a few steps behind him. Not for me as I won't be near there this season but this...this will show if there has been change in the dressing room.

No more of that Convey crap where he turned and walked out.

Derko
01-16-2014, 10:46 AM
Playoff berth, CCL second round. BMO Field becomes a Fortress again (at least a draw if not a win at BMO), Beat Montreal, Vancouver and Columbus every match played. Have I missed anything :scarf::flare::drum::canada::drinking:

rowjimi
01-16-2014, 10:47 AM
Playoffs
Canadian Champions

mowe
01-16-2014, 10:49 AM
Playoffs and Voyaguers Cup are a minimum. Depending on how the season goes I don''t think winning a round in the playoffs will be asking too much.

Advancing in CCL will depend on the group we get. If we get a Mexican team again I can understand not advancing. But if we get an American team then we should aim to advance. It's a 50-50 chance of drawing a Mexican or US team.

Canary10
01-16-2014, 10:50 AM
Playoffs (not play-ins).

Yohan
01-16-2014, 10:52 AM
Playoffs (not play-ins).
3rd in Eastern Conference? or as in get to Conference semi finals in playoffs?

Canary10
01-16-2014, 10:54 AM
3rd in Eastern Conference? or as in get to Conference semi finals in playoffs?

Preferably the first, but either would do.

Huyton
01-16-2014, 10:55 AM
A Playoff game at BMO Field...not the "play in" game between 4th and 5th that both Vancouver and Montreal have been involved in (and lost, both of which were played in the US).

Anything less than this and the only reason people will renew is so that they will have a ticket to the very last game TFC played in Toronto before becoming Red Star St. Louis.

I expect us to play in the CCL, and push hard, or make, the group stages, but it's not the minimum.

Pint
01-16-2014, 11:03 AM
playoffs, V-cup, and a 10-0 route of Mtl in Montreal August long weekend

ManUtd4ever
01-16-2014, 11:17 AM
Playoffs and V Cup

And be above Montreal in standings ;)

In of itself, that might not be such a worthy accomplishment this season.

Yohan
01-16-2014, 11:23 AM
In of itself, that might not be such a worthy accomplishment this season.
Maybe. They are one CB and one striker away from being competitive again. starter to replace Nesta and someone who can take the load off di Vaio for scoring goals. (and couple of depth players)

Captain
01-16-2014, 11:27 AM
For me its:

1) Playoffs but we must make it past the play-ins - can't handle that both Montreal and Vancouver have made it into the playoffs. We have to get further then they did.
2) Win Canadian Championship - I don't really want them to get too much further then that as I'd like to see the focus on playoffs at the end of the year.
3) Atmosphere at BMO improving and a full stadium - pretty sure this will happen

Stress
01-16-2014, 11:27 AM
- Playoffs
- V Cup
- Atleast 3 players named to all star team
- Betting against TFC is no longer my first thought on game day

notthesun
01-16-2014, 11:27 AM
Leiweke promised playoffs, so that's my criteria.

Yohan
01-16-2014, 11:28 AM
- Playoffs
- V Cup
- Atleast 3 players named to all star team
- Betting against TFC is no longer my first thought on game day
all star team is so full of politics, that it shouldn't be a standard to rate players

Fort York Redcoat
01-16-2014, 11:30 AM
Champions League. If they don't make the playoffs I'd be fine with it.


No Champions League means I want the Supporters Shield.

Initial B
01-16-2014, 11:52 AM
For me, minimum success is CCL play and at least one home-and-away MLS Playoff tilt.

A big success would be to win the Triple (VCup, SS, MLS Cup).

Ultra & Proud
01-16-2014, 11:53 AM
1) Playoffs
2) V Cup
3) More wins than losses
4) Good home form

TFC07
01-16-2014, 11:57 AM
SS, MLS Cup, V-Cup and CCL cup.

Yeah, I am greedy like that. :)

Abou Sky
01-16-2014, 12:02 PM
Playoff at BMO (at least 4th in East)

Areathrasher
01-16-2014, 12:04 PM
Playoffs and V-Cup.

I'd also like to see an absolute spanking of someone at BMO 5/6-0 :)

Oldtimer
01-16-2014, 12:19 PM
Playoffs
V-Cup
Be at least average in play compared to MLS long-term averages (win 50% of home games, tie 25% of home games, win 25% of away games, tie 25% of away games).
Finish ahead of Montreal

T-boy
01-16-2014, 12:21 PM
I'm gonna be a little more realistic and keep my feet on the ground for now....

Even with all the new "superstar signings", we will take time to gel as a new team. With Morrow, DeRo, Defoe, Gilberto, Jackson, and Bradley, that's over half your first 11 new since last season. They all may be better players, but they won't play "instantly" like a play off team.

That being said, I think we will obviously improve since last season. But I will be conservative and say that we will improve by 20 points over last season, but that may "only just" put us around the knockout round of the cup. A 20 point improvement though, is a MASSIVE improvement in one season!

So, I don't think we can quite say that "playoffs or bust', but still, a 20 point increase in one season would be a huge improvement in the MLS.

Canary10
01-16-2014, 12:36 PM
I'm gonna be a little more realistic and keep my feet on the ground for now....

Even with all the new "superstar signings", we will take time to gel as a new team. With Morrow, DeRo, Defoe, Gilberto, Jackson, and Bradley, that's over half your first 11 new since last season. They all may be better players, but they won't play "instantly" like a play off team.

That being said, I think we will obviously improve since last season. But I will be conservative and say that we will improve by 20 points over last season, but that may "only just" put us around the knockout round of the cup. A 20 point improvement though, is a MASSIVE improvement in one season!

So, I don't think we can quite say that "playoffs or bust', but still, a 20 point increase in one season would be a huge improvement in the MLS.

Totally agree. For all the talk of the same "core," we have a very different starting XI than last year. I think we have to be really cautious of what to expect early on in the season.

JuliquE
01-16-2014, 02:17 PM
Totally agree. For all the talk of the same "core," we have a very different starting XI than last year. I think we have to be really cautious of what to expect early on in the season.
In the voice of De Ro, "definitely!" I've been saying this all up and down the boards. So crucial. for me.

OgtheDim
01-16-2014, 02:35 PM
Totally agree. For all the talk of the same "core," we have a very different starting XI than last year. I think we have to be really cautious of what to expect early on in the season.


Unfortunately, the "Nelsen out!" talk will start right after we go behind 1-0 in the first half in Seattle.

Canary10
01-16-2014, 02:41 PM
Unfortunately, the "Nelsen out!" talk will start right after we go behind 1-0 in the first half in Seattle.

I know, and I was saying a while back that's BS. You just can't integrate 5 or 6 players into the first team that easily. Look at Spurs who tried to do it. They still look pretty flat.

brad
01-16-2014, 02:47 PM
I know, and I was saying a while back that's BS. You just can't integrate 5 or 6 players into the first team that easily. Look at Spurs who tried to do it. They still look pretty flat.

It's also entirely possible and likely that Defoe and Bradley take a while to adapt to the league as well. Pretty common for high profile DP's to take a season to adapt to the league. Gilberto might take time as well.

Canary10
01-16-2014, 02:50 PM
It's also entirely possible and likely that Defoe and Bradley take a while to adapt to the league as well. Pretty common for high profile DP's to take a season to adapt to the league. Gilberto might take time as well.

Yeah totally.

brad
01-16-2014, 03:02 PM
Honestly, I expect to not suck out of the gate, but not be great. I expect some mixed results. I think we'll hit our stride a few months in, possibly even after the WC.

shwade
01-16-2014, 03:03 PM
Playoffs and lots of goals.

T-boy
01-16-2014, 04:31 PM
Honestly, I expect to not suck out of the gate, but not be great. I expect some mixed results. I think we'll hit our stride a few months in, possibly even after the WC.

Agreed on this. I think we might struggle on the road start of the season, especially with some new players who aren't used to the major amount of travel involved in the MLS. I expect us to win some early games just on the enthusiasm of some new SSH's and some full stadiums chanting at their "new hero's". If we can keep mid table by the start of the world cup, I then expect us to kick on and start getting more points, especially on the road, from August on and we might then pick up enough points for the play offs.

Does anybody know if any MLS team has "improved" by more than 20 points between two seasons?

Canary10
01-16-2014, 04:34 PM
Agreed on this. I think we might struggle on the road start of the season, especially with some new players who aren't used to the major amount of travel involved in the MLS. I expect us to win some early games just on the enthusiasm of some new SSH's and some full stadiums chanting at their "new hero's". If we can keep mid table by the start of the world cup, I then expect us to kick on and start getting more points, especially on the road, from August on and we might then pick up enough points for the play offs.

Does anybody know if any MLS team has "improved" by more than 20 points between two seasons?

I think San Jose improved by 28 points the year they won the Supporters Shield from the previous year (from memory). That's a lot. (Ha, I was right. Pretty good memory. DC improved by 19 that year, Vancouver 15).

Joe Kool
01-16-2014, 04:35 PM
Respectability within the league and city. Respectable finish in the MLS table for the year. Definitely expect the CCL again...no reason not to. More games of me leaving BMO happy than not happy.

Canary10
01-16-2014, 04:40 PM
We're talking about record levels of improvement from one season to the next just to make the playoffs.

Canary10
01-16-2014, 04:43 PM
Portland improved by 23 last year. Think that was the highest; Colorado 14.

To put it in context, we'd need probably need 21 to be confident of making the playoffs.

Technorgasm
01-16-2014, 04:45 PM
What is the minimum that TFC can achieve this season for you to still consider the season a success, and walk away happy?
.

Min and MAx.
The same.
SCORE
IN
EVERY
HOME
GAME.


I'll get my Coat.

NORB.

(do the double over the L'imp-act would also be a nice bonus)

Joe Kool
01-16-2014, 04:46 PM
Oh...one other key indicator of a successful season for me....my wife not telling me after any games "why are we paying for this?"

brad
01-16-2014, 04:52 PM
Portland improved by 23 last year. Think that was the highest; Colorado 14.

To put it in context, we'd need probably need 21 to be confident of making the playoffs.

The Quakes improved by 28 points the year they won the supporters shield.

T-boy
01-16-2014, 04:59 PM
Portland improved by 23 last year. Think that was the highest; Colorado 14.

To put it in context, we'd need probably need 21 to be confident of making the playoffs.

Thanks for doing the research Canary!

So yea, I think we need to be realistic - going from a 29 point team to a playoff team (minimum 49 points) in one season is going to be an extremely tough task! We would need at least 20 extra points on 2013, and probably 25 points to be safe in the playoff picture.

So, can we REALLY say that we have to make the playoffs in 2014? I think some people have to check their expectations a tiny bit!

That being said, I obviously do hope we reach the playoffs, but I wouldn't flip out and fire Nelson if we went from 29 points to 47 within a season and just missed out the playoffs. 29 points to 47 would be a massive improvement!

OgtheDim
01-16-2014, 05:07 PM
Playoffs is a tough ask, but its a necessary one.

That is the goal. Has to be. Every season.

Do that or the coach gets fired and we go at it again in 2015.

Anyways, the turn around potential in the team as it currently sits is probably the biggest in MLS history. What other team has brought in 1 proven DP level forward, 1 proven DP level DM, a well scouted forward and a former MVP (gosh I hope he doesn't screw things up but he is a good player) in an off season? And its not like we were uncompetitive in matches last season.

If any team can do this big a turn around, this is the one.


Gotta hope.

brad
01-16-2014, 05:14 PM
Playoffs is a tough ask, but its a necessary one.

That is the goal. Has to be. Every season.

Do that or the coach gets fired and we go at it again in 2015.

Anyways, the turn around potential in the team as it currently sits is probably the biggest in MLS history. What other team has brought in 1 proven DP level forward, 1 proven DP level DM, a well scouted forward and a former MVP (gosh I hope he doesn't screw things up but he is a good player) in an off season? And its not like we were uncompetitive in matches last season.

If any team can do this big a turn around, this is the one.


Gotta hope.

Oh, the potential is definitely there, but needs to be tempered with a realistic view. Most DP's take time to settle into the league. DiVaio and Henry for example both had pretty average first seasons. As mentioned above, putting together a bunch of new players takes time for them to gel.

OgtheDim
01-16-2014, 05:16 PM
Yeah, head vs. heart stuff this.

brad
01-16-2014, 05:21 PM
^^For sure.

HeyToronto
01-16-2014, 05:34 PM
All I want is to go to BMO with the belief that the team can win on any given day like years 2 & 3. For shameful chants to be eliminated like the "_ minutes of shame" everytime they indicate the amount of extra time. To havent the sentiment that the ship has been turned.

jloome
01-16-2014, 05:39 PM
Playoffs
CCL knock out stages
More goals scored than conceded

Put perfectly.

jloome
01-16-2014, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by brad http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/images/styles/AnimatedArena/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?p=1635356#post1635356) It's also entirely possible and likely that Defoe and Bradley take a while to adapt to the league as well. Pretty common for high profile DP's to take a season to adapt to the league. Gilberto might take time as well.



Bradley started in MLS and his dad was the coach of the Red Bulls at the time, I think. He was here for two seasons before going to Holland. I don't think Defoe will need any time to start scoring. But the travel rigors will mean a slow down at some point that we shouldnt' all go apey over.

ensco
01-16-2014, 06:15 PM
I think 2014 is about something other than results, although if I get what I want, results will follow.

I want one thing only.

I want to stop being envious of other teams and their fans

I'm tired of not competing properly for players (looks like that isn't an issue any more! hope the cure doesn't wreck the club long term!). I'm tired of watching bad soccer, whether in person or on TV, when TFC plays. I'm tired of seeing an RSL play a Dallas and seeing a great game, as if it were in a different league than ours, and feeling cheated that we get those so, so rarely.

That's all I need.

ManUtd4ever
01-16-2014, 06:41 PM
Although I agree with ensco to an extent, this year has to be about tangible results on the pitch, given the state of the franchise going into this off season, and the financial commitment of the new ownership group.

I don't expect TFC to be strong out of the gate due to the lack of cohesion among the top end players of the roster, but I expect the team to compile a respectable record in the first half of the season and remain within striking distance of a playoff spot in the Eastern Conference. In the second half, if the team can avoid injuries to our core players, I expect TFC to surge in the standings, and for the team to establish itself as a top 3 team in the conference. If we fail to make the playoffs, it will be a failure of epic proportions; far worse than in 2009.

As for the CCL, I can't help but feel that anything less than an appearance in the group stages would also be considered a massive disappointment, based on how our roster measures up with Montreal and Vancouver. We're not necessarily ready to slay the top Mexican clubs yet, so under the revised format, a 2nd place finish in our group would be respectable depending on the draw.

brad
01-16-2014, 06:42 PM
Bradley started in MLS and his dad was the coach of the Red Bulls at the time, I think. He was here for two seasons before going to Holland. I don't think Defoe will need any time to start scoring. But the travel rigors will mean a slow down at some point that we shouldnt' all go apey over.

You know how much the league has changed since Bradley was here.

both players are going to need to adapt to playing with lower calibre teammates. Defoe is going to need to learn to create his own space and not rely on his teammates creating space with off the ball runs and will have to learn to deal with lesser service.

Bradley will ill adapt quicker I think, but he's going to have to adapt to the fact that he's not going to have the same sort of options to pass the ball to that he is used to.

Out of curiosity - what makes you think Defoe will hit the ground running when most other DP's take time to adjust?

ManUtd4ever
01-16-2014, 06:49 PM
You know how much the league has changed since Bradley was here.

both players are going to need to adapt to playing with lower calibre teammates. Defoe is going to need to learn to create his own space and not rely on his teammates creating space with off the ball runs and will have to learn to deal with lesser service.

Bradley will ill adapt quicker I think, but he's going to have to adapt to the fact that he's not going to have the same sort of options to pass the ball to that he is used to.

Out of curiosity - what makes you think Defoe will hit the ground running when most other DP's take time to adjust?

I agree with jloome, because Defoe should be in mid season form when the season begins, and despite his lack of familiarity with his teammates, he has the ability to create his own opportunities, and he is a legitimate threat outside the box.

Super
01-16-2014, 08:06 PM
I agree with jloome, because Defoe should be in mid season form when the season begins, and despite his lack of familiarity with his teammates, he has the ability to create his own opportunities, and he is a legitimate threat outside the box.

I'd assume he'd be in near WC fitness when he comes here. I'm not too worried about it. But it'll certainly be important for him to get that first goal, and then hopefully start a series of them. Same goes for Gilberto. Lots of pressure to go around on this new TFC team. Lots of expectations.

brad
01-16-2014, 08:16 PM
Match fitness is not the same as adapting to a new league/team.

I expect Gilberto to take longer than the other two to adjust - as most players from down south do. Hopefully he hits the ground running like Laba, but I'm not holding my breath.

Wince
01-16-2014, 08:29 PM
Oh...one other key indicator of a successful season for me....my wife not telling me after any games "why are we paying for this?"

Quite possibly the greatest post I've read on the board! Awesome!! :)

ryan
01-16-2014, 08:33 PM
Playoffs - INCLUDING A HOME DATE, thus 5th isn't good enough. Top 4 minimum. I want to lose my shit at BMO over this.

CCL - Quarterfinals at least.

Club - We need to simply be unbeatable at home. Losing at BMO needs to be inexcusable. We also need to put an end to the giving up goals in the first and final moments. I'd be happier if we became a team who were doing the scoring, but at the very least this must end now. Whistle to whistle, we are on form.

ryan
01-16-2014, 08:39 PM
Thanks for doing the research Canary!

So yea, I think we need to be realistic - going from a 29 point team to a playoff team (minimum 49 points) in one season is going to be an extremely tough task! We would need at least 20 extra points on 2013, and probably 25 points to be safe in the playoff picture.

So, can we REALLY say that we have to make the playoffs in 2014? I think some people have to check their expectations a tiny bit!

That being said, I obviously do hope we reach the playoffs, but I wouldn't flip out and fire Nelson if we went from 29 points to 47 within a season and just missed out the playoffs. 29 points to 47 would be a massive improvement!

I don't think there's logical sense in saying it's tough because of what we acheived last year. We're going to have what? 7 starters who weren't on the roster a year ago? I mean does how we performed in some random loss in say...May 2013, really have any real effect on what we might do on the field during the 2014 season? LOL no.

What we did last year, has zero percent effect on what we may or may not do this season.

ensco
01-16-2014, 08:43 PM
Some of this reminds me of the early days of this board, where the general tenor of discussion was that there was no way we wouldn't take the league by storm.

We were 20 points out of the playoffs last year. Every team is making moves. It took the Galaxy several years to figure out how to do this. The caliber of our domestics remains well below the league average.

ManUtd4ever
01-16-2014, 10:55 PM
The caliber of our domestics is certainly not below the league average. TFC can count both Canadians and Americans as domestic players for roster compliance purposes.

Bradley
DeRosario
Osorio
Dike
Morrow
Bendik
Henry
Morgan

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2014, 11:12 PM
I think 2014 is about something other than results, although if I get what I want, results will follow.

I want one thing only.

I want to stop being envious of other teams and their fans

I'm tired of not competing properly for players (looks like that isn't an issue any more! hope the cure doesn't wreck the club long term!). I'm tired of watching bad soccer, whether in person or on TV, when TFC plays. I'm tired of seeing an RSL play a Dallas and seeing a great game, as if it were in a different league than ours, and feeling cheated that we get those so, so rarely.

That's all I need.

I'm with you on all of this.

In terms of actual season results expectations, I'm with MartinUtd. I think playoffs, CCL knockout stages (or at least the V-Cup), and a positive goal differential, are reasonable expectations.

We can't be positive our new players will hit the ground running (though we shouldn't automatically expect them to struggle out of the gate either - "LA had expensive DPs, and so do we, so we can anticipate the same problems" is kind of a crude analysis), but if anyone can, it's a guy like Defoe. And of course, Bradley has first hand MLS experience. Neither have any language barrier, either.

It's the rest of our lineup that concerns me, though having a more potent attack, and a competent midfield, WILL help our defense. More pressure off the backs, and hopefully less time spent chasing the play. That said, we continue to need depth, and I have no idea how much financial room we have left.

- Scott

GuelphStorm2007
01-17-2014, 01:44 AM
I will be happy with playoffs , and actually holding on to leads in the dying minutes , and on a lesser scale some of our Canadian born players like Morgan, Osario, all have breakthrough years. Finally I hope TFC success pisses off the likes of Bill Archer at Big Soccer, Who has always put down TFC and Canadian Soccer as a Whole.

GuelphStorm2007
01-17-2014, 01:50 AM
I'm gonna be a little more realistic and keep my feet on the ground for now....

Even with all the new "superstar signings", we will take time to gel as a new team. With Morrow, DeRo, Defoe, Gilberto, Jackson, and Bradley, that's over half your first 11 new since last season. They all may be better players, but they won't play "instantly" like a play off team.

That being said, I think we will obviously improve since last season. But I will be conservative and say that we will improve by 20 points over last season, but that may "only just" put us around the knockout round of the cup. A 20 point improvement though, is a MASSIVE improvement in one season!

So, I don't think we can quite say that "playoffs or bust', but still, a 20 point increase in one season would be a huge improvement in the MLS.

I totally agree I do not want us TFC Supporters talking like The Jays last year, We have new players It will take time for them to adjust that is why Training camp will be important maybe the most important in TFCs history.

Derko
01-17-2014, 05:38 AM
Playoff berth, CCL second round. BMO Field becomes a Fortress again (at least a draw if not a win at BMO), Beat Montreal, Vancouver and Columbus every match played. Have I missed anything :scarf::flare::drum::canada::drinking:

And Piss Off all of the Naysayers on other teams, and Bob McClown

khso11
01-17-2014, 05:42 AM
and Bob McClown

hahaha, pissing him off is priority! I can imagine his face hahaha

tfcleeds
01-17-2014, 06:29 AM
McCown's pretty oblivious to all things TFC, and I wouldn't expect that to change, or him to care any less than he already does. Oh well, his loss, along with all the other media dinosaurs in this city, like Simmons et al.

Pookie
01-17-2014, 06:32 AM
Funny.

TFC has assembled the most expensive roster in MLS history and only a handful are expecting trophies and deep CCL runs.

Bulk of the posts are about respectability or taking time to "gel", a concept so elusive of measurement that it could be argued is made up to explain things that can't be explained.

While i agree that the roster is full of holes and we should have lowered expectations, that isn't the story. Tim L dropped millions, not into a scouting department. Not into sudsidizing costs for young Ontario players in the new Ontario Player Development League (OPDL) as Jason deVos suggested. They didn't trade allocation for draft picks. They took a short cut. Big names. Immediate results is the promise.

And if one takes a short cut, one cannot complain that the route may be bumpy. He likes to be accountable. Hold them to it.

MLS Cup. Period. None of this competing for a playoff spot bullshit that MLSE led teams spout continually.

Most expensive roster in MLS history. They went out with that plan and did it. If that's the plan and they don't think it can get them the MLS Cup, then what is the point ?

Ultra & Proud
01-17-2014, 08:16 AM
Funny.

TFC has assembled the most expensive roster in MLS history and only a handful are expecting trophies and deep CCL runs.

Bulk of the posts are about respectability or taking time to "gel", a concept so elusive of measurement that it could be argued is made up to explain things that can't be explained.

While i agree that the roster is full of holes and we should have lowered expectations, that isn't the story. Tim L dropped millions, not into a scouting department. Not into sudsidizing costs for young Ontario players in the new Ontario Player Development League (OPDL) as Jason deVos suggested. They didn't trade allocation for draft picks. They took a short cut. Big names. Immediate results is the promise.

And if one takes a short cut, one cannot complain that the route may be bumpy. He likes to be accountable. Hold them to it.

MLS Cup. Period. None of this competing for a playoff spot bullshit that MLSE led teams spout continually.

Most expensive roster in MLS history. They went out with that plan and did it. If that's the plan and they don't think it can get them the MLS Cup, then what is the point ?
Respectability, culture change, and improvement to our existing lower level players is the point this year. Go take a look back at LA when they became the team spending unheard of dollars and getting in legit players. They took a year to come around and from that a cycle of success developed including two MLS Cups, a Supporters Shield, and playoffs every season and all with certain roster spots changing. That's the point and it worked before and worked well.

Now dumping cash into youth and scouting is a good idea but if it's your only idea then you have to expect a lot of hits and misses and most likely a few more years of being crap. That is something none of us or the club can afford.

brad
01-17-2014, 08:17 AM
Another huge x-factor here is the fact that we have an inexperienced manager. He may come good, he may not, but it is huge piece of the puzzle this season, and will likely have as big, if not bigger impact than any DP we have signed.

brad
01-17-2014, 08:19 AM
Respectability, culture change, and improvement to our existing lower level players is the point this year. Go take a look back at LA when they became the team spending unheard of dollars and getting in legit players. They took a year to come around and from that a cycle of success developed including two MLS Cups, a Supporters Shield, and playoffs every season and all with certain roster spots changing. That's the point and it worked before and worked well.


And LA did it with one of the best managers the league has ever seen. We are doing it with a rookie. Which might not matter. Nelsen might be the next Kreis. But he might not.

Yohan
01-17-2014, 08:26 AM
Funny.

TFC has assembled the most expensive roster in MLS history and only a handful are expecting trophies and deep CCL runs.

Bulk of the posts are about respectability or taking time to "gel", a concept so elusive of measurement that it could be argued is made up to explain things that can't be explained.

While i agree that the roster is full of holes and we should have lowered expectations, that isn't the story. Tim L dropped millions, not into a scouting department. Not into sudsidizing costs for young Ontario players in the new Ontario Player Development League (OPDL) as Jason deVos suggested. They didn't trade allocation for draft picks. They took a short cut. Big names. Immediate results is the promise.

And if one takes a short cut, one cannot complain that the route may be bumpy. He likes to be accountable. Hold them to it.

MLS Cup. Period. None of this competing for a playoff spot bullshit that MLSE led teams spout continually.

Most expensive roster in MLS history. They went out with that plan and did it. If that's the plan and they don't think it can get them the MLS Cup, then what is the point ?
because having the most expensive roster does not necessarily translate into success in MLS. even if TFC pulled a Man City and spent money on every position in the roster, the kind of team chemistry and mental toughness needed to win in MLS does not develop overnight. and playoffs is a bit of crap shoot, where you need a lot of luck.

this team is 2 long term injuries away from looking ordinary again, and the depth that is built into every great team is simply not there yet

sully
01-17-2014, 08:50 AM
Not one loss at home

Oldtimer
01-17-2014, 09:05 AM
I'm tired of not competing properly for players (looks like that isn't an issue any more! hope the cure doesn't wreck the club long term!). I'm tired of watching bad soccer, whether in person or on TV, when TFC plays. I'm tired of seeing an RSL play a Dallas and seeing a great game, as if it were in a different league than ours, and feeling cheated that we get those so, so rarely.


So well put, I can totally relate to that feeling. I remember watching RSL in the CCL finals when they almost won it all, and feeling like I was watching a lower part of the table EPL team, not an MLS side. It was so different from where TFC was, I couldn't believe it. I felt so cheated having for Toronto such a crap team supposedly in the same league, as much as I wanted an MLS side to finally beat those Mexicans.

So that's another way of looking at it... feeling like our team is in the same league as one of the top ones.

TFC_Allez
01-17-2014, 09:50 AM
Playoffs. Canadian champs. CCL knock-outs. Trillium Cup. A savage beating of Montreal at somepoint in the league or Voyageurs Cup whether it be at BMO or at that stadium named after that cheese company would be greatly appreciated. I will be very satisfied. This is the year to deliver some retribution around the league...I hope.

ryan
01-17-2014, 10:04 AM
Oh yeah I forgot to mention that (silly) trillum cup.

Regardless, I never want to lose to the piss yellow squad...ever again.

ManUtd4ever
01-17-2014, 10:39 AM
Funny.

TFC has assembled the most expensive roster in MLS history and only a handful are expecting trophies and deep CCL runs.

Bulk of the posts are about respectability or taking time to "gel", a concept so elusive of measurement that it could be argued is made up to explain things that can't be explained.

While i agree that the roster is full of holes and we should have lowered expectations, that isn't the story. Tim L dropped millions, not into a scouting department. Not into sudsidizing costs for young Ontario players in the new Ontario Player Development League (OPDL) as Jason deVos suggested. They didn't trade allocation for draft picks. They took a short cut. Big names. Immediate results is the promise.

And if one takes a short cut, one cannot complain that the route may be bumpy. He likes to be accountable. Hold them to it.

MLS Cup. Period. None of this competing for a playoff spot bullshit that MLSE led teams spout continually.

Most expensive roster in MLS history. They went out with that plan and did it. If that's the plan and they don't think it can get them the MLS Cup, then what is the point ?

The eventual goal is to win a championship, and that has been made abundantly clearly by the TFC hierarchy. The expectations for this season were tempered because of the obvious reality that a team with so many new faces on the roster will need time to get acclimated. However, the stated ultimate goal is to field a club that will be a perennial contender, and the core they are assembling will be able to play together for several years.

As for the shortcomings that are still apparent within the roster, management has also made it clear that they are not done yet, and I'm sure that those issues will be address prior to the start of the season.

cmonyoureds
01-17-2014, 10:48 AM
A home playoff game.

Pint
01-17-2014, 11:09 AM
McCown's pretty oblivious to all things TFC, and I wouldn't expect that to change, or him to care any less than he already does. Oh well, his loss, along with all the other media dinosaurs in this city, like Simmons et al.

McCown is pretty oblivious to all things sports in the city which is amusing since that is him job. He has openly admitted in the past that he doesn't watch the Leafs yet it is most of his show at times.

Wince
01-17-2014, 11:33 AM
McCown's pretty oblivious to all things TFC, and I wouldn't expect that to change

If TFC somehow does manage to win the MLS Cup, or does well in CCL, then he has to acknowledge them. TFC has been suffering through a championship drought in a major sport (yeah, yeah, I know. the Rock) since the Jays in the early 90's. Any kind of silverware being paraded down Queen is hard to ignore.

tfcleeds
01-17-2014, 12:09 PM
If TFC somehow does manage to win the MLS Cup, or does well in CCL, then he has to acknowledge them. TFC has been suffering through a championship drought in a major sport (yeah, yeah, I know. the Rock) since the Jays in the early 90's. Any kind of silverware being paraded down Queen is hard to ignore.I don't think he has to. Anyone who's a regular listener to PTS knows that he rarely, if ever, talks about CFL on his show, unless it's the odd chat with David Braley or Chris Rudge or someone like that. Even in the wake of the Argos winning in 2012, you wouldn't have known they existed listening to PTS. And Monday's presser was probably the biggest story in Toronto sports since the Jays/Marlins trade, but it got no mention on PTS. Leiweke was supposed to be a guest on his show Monday. But prior to coming on, McCown made a typical withering comment about TFC. As folks on here have speculated, the comment got back to Leiweke, and he probably declined to appear on the show as a result. So McCown basically missed one of the biggest stories of the year. But he doesn't likely care.

Cashcleaner
01-17-2014, 12:36 PM
Whenever the local media talks about TFC or the club is speaking about itself, they always talk about playoffs. That's their number 1 goal year after year, and while I personally have more interest in the V-Cup and CCL, I gotta agree with the majority and say that making the MLS playoffs for the first time is an absolute must for the club this season. Playoffs will simply send the biggest message to the casual fans and other parties that this team really has been turned around.

ensco
02-24-2014, 08:25 AM
Was going to put this in the Mickey Mouse thread, but decided to revive this thread instead.

Leiweke may think competing for megaplayers will change everything, but that was never first on my list.

No more bad soccer.

I don't care who they sign, I'm not watching bad soccer.

That is what is worrying about the preseason.

Hustle
02-24-2014, 09:04 AM
In this order: BMO to be loud and full again...party atmosphere...Hot babes in red everywhere. Playoffs. Voyageurs Cup.

Abou Sky
02-24-2014, 09:22 AM
Was going to put this in the Mickey Mouse thread, but decided to revive this thread instead.

Leiweke may think competing for megaplayers will change everything, but that was never first on my list.

No more bad soccer.

I don't care who they sign, I'm not watching bad soccer.

That is what is worrying about the preseason.

+1

If this flops, TFC is FUCKED!

Phil
02-24-2014, 09:56 AM
Was going to put this in the Mickey Mouse thread, but decided to revive this thread instead.

Leiweke may think competing for megaplayers will change everything, but that was never first on my list.

No more bad soccer.

I don't care who they sign, I'm not watching bad soccer.

That is what is worrying about the preseason.

Given what this team has endured in the past I totally get where you are coming from. All we can do is hope it is working out the way they plan it. This is part of my confusion with Nelsens coaching. I really like what he has done off the pitch with his contacts but when it comes to on field stuff I scratch my head a bit.

themodelcitizen
02-24-2014, 02:49 PM
SS, MLS Cup, V-Cup and CCL cup.

Yeah, I am greedy like that. :)

what, no Club World Cup? You mentioned CCL, and the earliest we can win that is next season, same as the CWC :D

Pookie
02-25-2014, 08:02 AM
I'm going to put this here too. This board is full of lots of comments regarding the "time to gel" excuse and single examples of preseason results not meaning anything. Valid points or simply setting the excuse table?

Ladies and Gentlemen, there is the other side of the coin.

The NY Red Bulls of 2010 went from worst to first.

They had a new GM in Dec of 2009 and a new coach as of Jan, 2010. They had massive player turnover. Adding players like Carl Robinson, Tony Tchani, Joel Lindpere, Tim Ream, Chris Albright, Greg Sutton and quite a stable of other draft picks and home grown players. 12 new players and that was just in the winter. They also added Henry, Marquez and others throughout the season.

NY had a preseason record of 8-0-2. They scheduled 10 games for a team to get to know each other. Some were against lower sides and some against MLS teams.

They went 4-1-0 in April and by the end of June were 8-5-0.

All the factors that are being lined up as excuses were in play for NY but they overcame them. It is not unreasonable to expect the highest paid roster in the history of MLS to have success and find it early on.

Fort York Redcoat
02-25-2014, 08:19 AM
I'm going to put this here too. This board is full of lots of comments regarding the "time to gel" excuse and single examples of preseason results not meaning anything. Valid points or simply setting the excuse table?

Ladies and Gentlemen, there is the other side of the coin.

The NY Red Bulls of 2010 went from worst to first.

They had a new GM in Dec of 2009 and a new coach as of Jan, 2010. They had massive player turnover. Adding players like Carl Robinson, Tony Tchani, Joel Lindpere, Tim Ream, Chris Albright, Greg Sutton and quite a stable of other draft picks and home grown players. 12 new players and that was just in the winter. They also added Henry, Marquez and others throughout the season.

NY had a preseason record of 8-0-2. They scheduled 10 games for a team to get to know each other. Some were against lower sides and some against MLS teams.

They went 4-1-0 in April and by the end of June were 8-5-0.

All the factors that are being lined up as excuses were in play for NY but they overcame them. It is not unreasonable to expect the highest paid roster in the history of MLS to have success and find it early on.


Good example but I would consider that one to lean more towards exception instead of rule.

The expectation is undeniable. When everyone chooses to turn, lose it, however one wants to phrase it, is up to them.

brad
02-25-2014, 08:47 AM
I'm going to put this here too. This board is full of lots of comments regarding the "time to gel" excuse and single examples of preseason results not meaning anything. Valid points or simply setting the excuse table?

I'm one of those that raised it. IMHO it's a valid point. I've been watching this game for a lot of years, and teams that have a high turn over rarely do well out of the gate. Players switching to new teams, new leagues with different styles of play often take time to adapt.

In the MLS - many (maybe even most) DP's take time to adjust to the league - even up to a year. Many South American players struggle in their first year.

To me - there are just to many "what if's". We need a bunch of players to come together quickly and start playing as a team right away. We need all 3 new DP's to hit the ground running, despite the fact that history points against this.

I don't see that as an excuse, I see it as reality. That said, TL has promised the moon, and I expect him to deliver it. The team didn't gel in time, we had too many injuries, ect, ect are just excuses.


Ladies and Gentlemen, there is the other side of the coin.

The NY Red Bulls of 2010 went from worst to first.

They had a new GM in Dec of 2009 and a new coach as of Jan, 2010. They had massive player turnover. Adding players like Carl Robinson, Tony Tchani, Joel Lindpere, Tim Ream, Chris Albright, Greg Sutton and quite a stable of other draft picks and home grown players. 12 new players and that was just in the winter. They also added Henry, Marquez and others throughout the season.

NY had a preseason record of 8-0-2. They scheduled 10 games for a team to get to know each other. Some were against lower sides and some against MLS teams.

They went 4-1-0 in April and by the end of June were 8-5-0.

All the factors that are being lined up as excuses were in play for NY but they overcame them. It is not unreasonable to expect the highest paid roster in the history of MLS to have success and find it early on.

A valid point, but with a sample size of one. Which says it can be done, but should we expect it? Far more teams that have turned over their roster have been poor for a year or two then gathered steam as they held the core together.

Now - the point about the 10 preseason games is interesting. I'm not a fan of the complete roster not being here (Defoe should be from day one - but I suspect that wasn't an option for TFC). The club should be banging through pre-season games with the first 11 playing the bulk of the matches.

brad
02-25-2014, 08:49 AM
I wrote a detailed post about this in the superclub thread - quoting it here as it's a bit more relevant.


I don't think I am underestimating either Bradley or Defoe. I am cautiously optimistic, however I am seriously tempering my expectations based on a number of factors:

*In general, it takes players time to adapt to a new league.
*In general, whenever a team adds a bunch of new players it takes time for them to gel as a team
*It doesn't matter how good the players are, it takes a good manager to get results out of them

Specific to the MLS
*Euro DP's rarely hit the ground running. They usually take time (up to a season) to adapt.
*South American players usually take time, again, up to a season to adapt to the league.
*Being an MLS Allstar doesn't mean much - Brennan was one...

All that said, sure, we might have a stellar season and be one of the best teams in the league. But that that depends on lot stars aligning. We need Bradley, Defoe and Gilberto to buck the trend and hit the ground running. We need to gel as a team very quickly. We need to hope that DeRo last year was not an indication of what DeRo this year will be like.

And the big X-factor no one seems to discuss - we had better hope that an in-experienced Nelsen can turn this team into a winner. That he can outclass more experienced managers tactically. That he can get the team playing together in a competent style. That he can keep hold of the dressing room. That he can rotate his squad and not burn the DP's out. That he can make impactful subsitutions. All of this remains to be seen.

That said - I think Nelsen will do okay. My expectations for this season are that we do alright for the first half of the season - some good results, some bad ones, and start to hit form around July or August. Hopefully at that point we are within touching distance of the playoffs and can make a push from there.

All of this is of course injury dependent. If Defoe and Bradley go down, we are still IMHO a fairly average MLS team.

Canary10
02-25-2014, 09:47 AM
^ You are far too rational :). Totally agree with this.

themodelcitizen
02-25-2014, 01:41 PM
The NY Red Bulls of 2010 went from worst to first...

...NY had a preseason record of 8-0-2. They scheduled 10 games for a team to get to know each other. Some were against lower sides and some against MLS teams.

Now see why this doesn't apply?

brad
02-25-2014, 03:20 PM
Now see why this doesn't apply?

It applies for sure, but you have to factor in that it is a sample size of one when deciding if that is the norm or the exception. It says it is possible, but not how likely. Personally, I think it an exception (based on the fact that many of the good MLS teams assembled their core and weren't very good initially), but have no hard data to back it up.

Cashcleaner
02-26-2014, 01:39 AM
I want this:

http://www.canadasoccer.com/files/is/homepage/20100601_Voyageurs_Cup3_www.jpg


And a legitimate shot at this:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/sites/league/files/imagecache/620x350/image_nodes/2011/11/mls-cup-trophy.jpg


Oh, and if we play our cards right, we might be able to put together a good campaign for this:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/sites/league/files/imagecache/620x350/image_nodes/2013/03/CCL_trophy.jpg

jloome
02-26-2014, 12:34 PM
It applies for sure, but you have to factor in that it is a sample size of one when deciding if that is the norm or the exception. It says it is possible, but not how likely. Personally, I think it an exception (based on the fact that many of the good MLS teams assembled their core and weren't very good initially), but have no hard data to back it up.

But it's not a factor size of one; Chicago won the league as a new franchise, RSL went from out of the playoffs to the title, and DC United went from Worst to first. It's happened at least five times in a league that's only 18 years old.

themodelcitizen
02-26-2014, 05:56 PM
It applies for sure, but you have to factor in that it is a sample size of one when deciding if that is the norm or the exception. It says it is possible, but not how likely. Personally, I think it an exception (based on the fact that many of the good MLS teams assembled their core and weren't very good initially), but have no hard data to back it up.

The point is we've had a woeful preseason. Using a team who went 8-2 in preseason isn't really an example we can aspire to

brad
02-26-2014, 10:07 PM
But it's not a factor size of one; Chicago won the league as a new franchise, RSL went from out of the playoffs to the title, and DC United went from Worst to first. It's happened at least five times in a league that's only 18 years old.

In one year? RSL took two or three. Chicago was an expansion team in a very different time. Not sure about DC.

Who are the other teams that went from last to best in one year?

Yohan
02-26-2014, 10:37 PM
In one year? RSL took two or three. Chicago was an expansion team in a very different time. Not sure about DC.

Who are the other teams that went from last to best in one year?
Teams that missed playoffs and made huge improvements next season

2008 Columbus Crew: missed playoffs in 07, 20 pts improvement, Supporter's Shield, MLS Cup
2009 LA Galaxy: missed playoffs in 08, 15 pts improvement, runner up Supporter's Shield, MLS Cup finalist
2010 NY Red Bulls: missed playoffs in 09, 30 pts improvement, Eastern Conference winners
2011 Houston Dynamo: missed playoffs in 10, 16 pts improvement, MLS Cup finalists (SKC also had a huge improvement from missing playoffs)
2012 San Jose Earthquakes: missed playoffs in 11, 28 pts improvement, Supporter's Shield winner (DC also had huge improvement from missing playoffs)
2013 Portland Timbers: missed playoffs in 12, 23 pts improvement

I agree with you that teams need to gel and team chemistry doesn't happen overnight, but MLS is one of those leagues that if you find the magic bullet, you can go on a helluva run. And a lot of luck. Relying on finding that magic bullet and luck is not a good way to build a team though :p

LFC_TFC
02-26-2014, 10:41 PM
My success includes keeping talented young players on our roster like Laba, oh wait...

brad
02-26-2014, 10:59 PM
Teams that missed playoffs and made huge improvements next season

2008 Columbus Crew: missed playoffs in 07, 20 pts improvement, Supporter's Shield, MLS Cup
2009 LA Galaxy: missed playoffs in 08, 15 pts improvement, runner up Supporter's Shield, MLS Cup finalist
2010 NY Red Bulls: missed playoffs in 09, 30 pts improvement, Eastern Conference winners
2011 Houston Dynamo: missed playoffs in 10, 16 pts improvement, MLS Cup finalists (SKC also had a huge improvement from missing playoffs)
2012 San Jose Earthquakes: missed playoffs in 11, 28 pts improvement, Supporter's Shield winner (DC also had huge improvement from missing playoffs)
2013 Portland Timbers: missed playoffs in 12, 23 pts improvement

I agree with you that teams need to gel and team chemistry doesn't happen overnight, but MLS is one of those leagues that if you find the magic bullet, you can go on a helluva run. And a lot of luck. Relying on finding that magic bullet and luck is not a good way to build a team though :p

Do you know if any of these teams turned over as many players as we have when doing so? Genuinely curious if these teams improved that much by building on a solid core or if it was a rip and replace job that did it.

Yohan
02-26-2014, 11:07 PM
Do you know if any of these teams turned over as many players as we have when doing so? Genuinely curious if these teams improved that much by building on a solid core or if it was a rip and replace job that did it.
2010 NY and 2013 Portland for sure

Edit: 09 LA, 12 SJ a bit

Red CB Toronto
02-27-2014, 02:59 AM
This team is going to seriously need to sign at least some depth players at least for some cover during the World Cup. The roster currently sits at 25 players under contract including a long term injured player (Dike), a 3rd and 4th string Gk and two recent home grown academy signings. So when you factor out those guys out of the equation in terms of making a decent contribution to the club, you are at 20 players ready to go.

Now there are also three unsigned draft picks in camp. In my eyes Nick Hagglund is the only sure fire signing, so will have to see what happens with the other two.

Fort York Redcoat
02-27-2014, 08:08 AM
My success includes keeping talented young players on our roster like Laba, oh wait...

Instead of Bradley? Oh.

brad
02-27-2014, 10:40 AM
This team is going to seriously need to sign at least some depth players at least for some cover during the World Cup. The roster currently sits at 25 players under contract including a long term injured player (Dike), a 3rd and 4th string Gk and two recent home grown academy signings. So when you factor out those guys out of the equation in terms of making a decent contribution to the club, you are at 20 players ready to go.

Now there are also three unsigned draft picks in camp. In my eyes Nick Hagglund is the only sure fire signing, so will have to see what happens with the other two.

EDIT: just saw in another thread that this is wrong. Players are leaving earlier than the break.


I'm not so sure it will be a problem, unless England and/or the US make a deep run (which I doubt). MLS is taking a break during the Group Stages. Our last game before is on June 7th, the next one is on June 27th (vs NYRB).

Brazil are likely to go deep. If Brazil make the final, Cesar will miss 4, possibly 5 games. Bendik is fine here. We can get a league loaner for backup if needed (assuming Roberts is out on loan).

USA's last group game is the 26th. Bradley probably won't play on the 27th.
England's last game is on the 24th. Defoe is a possibility, but maybe unlikely for the 27th.

If England or USA make a deep run there would be an additional 2 games - Chicago on July 2nd and DC on July 5th. Basically, it looks like if any team makes the Round of 16, Chicago is out, if any team makes the Quarter finals, DC is also out. I'm not even going to consider the US or England making it to the final :)

trane
02-27-2014, 03:30 PM
CL success, playoffs.

A proper riot in the stands. (joke)

Wince
03-02-2015, 09:11 AM
What is the minimum that TFC can achieve this season for you to still consider the season a success, and walk away happy?

Signing better plays and managing the team better (which already seems to be happening), a sign that the ship has finally been righted?
More wins/points than last year? More wins/points than TFC has ever reached before?
Being in the playoff race late in the season?
Making the playoffs?
Supporter's Shield?
MLS Cup?
CCL?

Emphasis on MINIMUM achievement for this thread. For me, I'll settle for meaningful late season games, so being in the playoff hunt for me.

Bumping this thread back to the top. Perhaps a mod could change the title to read 2015 Success?

My minimum threshold this season will be not only making the playoffs, but advancing at least past the first round.

Ivy
03-02-2015, 12:31 PM
My success includes keeping talented young players on our roster like Laba, oh wait...
edit: my bad, didn't realize this thread was from 1876.