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View Full Version : The lockeroom - Nelson's biggest challenge?



Pookie
01-14-2014, 09:30 AM
I wonder if the largest challenge that faces Nelsen isn't tactics and depth but may in fact be simple human nature.

Athletes are competitive. They are proud. We like to think that when they hit the pitch, they are all pulling together for a common goal. And they might.

But conflicts are bound to arise. And off the pitch, they all have financial and social pressures of families and future ambitions.

TFC's offseason strategy has established the largest gap in player salaries in MLS history.

At most the difference in salaries at MLS Champs and MLS Finalists SKC and RSL is approximately $300k. The gaps between most of the starters is much less.

In Toronto, the gap between Caldwell and Defoe is millions. Benedik, Henry, Morgan, Bloom, Hall, Osorio will all earn less in a season than Bradley earns in 4-5 days of work.

In two weeks, Bradley will earn what DeRo makes in a year.

The lockeroom culture was arguably fractured over the years with DPs or Canadian American challenges.

Now the economic challenge has never been more striking and if finger pointing begins you have a natural divide amongst the most basic of human needs, economic resources.

Can Nelsen succeed with this challenge?

tfcleeds
01-14-2014, 09:33 AM
I was thinking about this very thing this morning. Yes, I would say it's a challenge that Nelsen is going to have to face, to keep everyone fighting for the common goal. But it's up to the players as well to keep motivated. It's got to be tough for some players, knowing the guy next to you might be making more in one game than you are all season. You just don't see the same kind of disparity in other sports (well, actually, I guess there are cases in the NFL and NBA like that, but you don't have players in those leagues earning under $50K).

bman27
01-14-2014, 09:45 AM
I'd think one thing that would work in Ryan's favor is the fact that everyone speaks of him as a true players coach. I think that side came easy to him, as everyone lauded his leadership abilities as a player as well. IMO I am more interested about how his tactical game will evolve now with the players at his disposal.

Waggy
01-14-2014, 09:49 AM
I think that is a huge huge issue that almost every manager faces. But in MLS especially so. I don't know really if any manager could make someone making $39 000 a year happy if they're sitting next to someone making 6 500 000 a year for the same job. All he can really do is make sure everyone understands their role, accepts the limitations on what the club can pay people who aren't DPs and keep the DPs as humble as possible. Maybe suggest they only play the credit card game between the 3 of them when the team goes out for dinner

(On a human level, if I was Defoe or Bradley, it'd be hard to not offer to pick up cheques and help out the guys making less as much as possible. Especially the guys with families)


Edit* kind of lost the plot with my post. Point being is this is more on the players attitudes than anything the manager does. On a management level the key will be identifying problem spots before they become real issues in the locker room.

Shakes McQueen
01-14-2014, 09:55 AM
If Los Angeles can do it en route to two MLS Cups, we should be able to navigate the egos too.

- Scott

flatpicker
01-14-2014, 09:55 AM
On the flip side:

For the low paid workhorse players... they need to realize that they are being paid based on the skill they bring to the pitch. If they want to earn more, they have to be better. Those few elite players are being paid big bucks because they have proven themselves at a high level. There are a lot of football players in the world, competition is fierce, and only a handful of those get to earn the mega dollars. If I were one of those $50K guys I would say to myself, "It's exciting to be playing with guys like Defoe and Bradley, and I'm going to use this as a chance to learn from the best, get better, and maybe I'll get a big paycheque one day".

ensco
01-14-2014, 10:00 AM
Nelsen's biggest challenge is that Leiweke has personal relationships now with Defoe and Bradley (and maybe Dero).

These 3 or 4 guys and their entourages are running the club, that's modern sports life, let's not kid ourselves.

pdubs
01-14-2014, 10:00 AM
On the flip side:

For the low paid workhorse players... they need to realize that they are being paid based on the skill they bring to the pitch. If they want to earn more, they have to be better. Those few elite players are being paid big bucks because they have proven themselves at a high level. There are a lot of football players in the world, competition is fierce, and only a handful of those get to earn the mega dollars. If I were one of those $50K guys I would say to myself, "It's exciting to be playing with guys like Defoe and Bradley, and I'm going to use this as a chance to learn from the best, get better, and maybe I'll get a big paycheque one day".

This. Prime example from this team could be Bendik, who wasn't making much, hadn't done much, played very well all year and got paid at the end of it. Never heard him complain, just did his job.

Yohan
01-14-2014, 10:01 AM
If a player can't realize that he's not going to get 5 mil/yr, because he has nowhere the close to resume that Defoe and Bradley has, then he's a hopeless cause. (coughderocough) But if he plays well enough for couple of years, he can reach Zusi/Wondo/Gonzo level of salary at 500-600k, which is helluva a lot better than it was before. MLS used to resist giving DP label to domestic players, because DPs were seen as primarily a marketing tool. Now that's changed, so good players, regardless of where they came from, can be a DP and make a decent wage. If a player thinks he can get more, go to Europe or elsewhere. Except very few places have money to spend, so just how much better money is he going to make from going overseas?

Accepting the reality of the situation, that very few players in MLS has playing resumes of Henry/Defoe/Bradley, means they won't go around doing cheque signing celebrations. or break contract like Camilo did. What Nelsen and TFC must do is to tell the players that if they do well enough and a fair offer comes in, TFC will sell the player, or offer a better contract if possible. This gives an incentive for a player to work hard for a bigger pay, knowing that the team will consider their best interest.

mowe
01-14-2014, 10:01 AM
No player on this team can claim to deserve millions of dollars. Defoe has scored over 150 Premier League goals and Bradley is the best player on the 14th ranked team in the world. These large salary disparities have existed before with LA, NY, etc. MLS players know they have to earn their due.

Yohan
01-14-2014, 10:07 AM
Creating a locker room where individual and more importantly, team success is rewarded, where players are happy for his teammate who got a new contract instead of being jealous... That's the big challenge. I do think Nelsen has created a team that will play for him (nobody can say that the team gave up last season), though adding Defoe and Bradley changes the dynamic a bit. But Caldwell is a good captain. He's got a good head between his shoulders, and he has played in highest level for a while.

Waggy
01-14-2014, 10:09 AM
Creating a locker room where individual and more importantly, team success is rewarded, where players are happy for his teammate who got a new contract instead of being jealous... That's the big challenge. I do think Nelsen has created a team that will play for him (nobody can say that the team gave up last season), though adding Defoe and Bradley changes the dynamic a bit. But Caldwell is a good captain. He's got a good head between his shoulders, and he has played in highest level for a while.

Off topic, but you think Caldwell will keep the armband with Bradley coming in? I kind of assumed it was Bradleys now. With Dero as a hockey style alternate

PopePouri
01-14-2014, 10:10 AM
I'd think one thing that would work in Ryan's favor is the fact that everyone speaks of him as a true players coach. I think that side came easy to him, as everyone lauded his leadership abilities as a player as well. IMO I am more interested about how his tactical game will evolve now with the players at his disposal.

Exactly. I'm more worried about players like DeRo than Defoe and Bradley.

pekduck
01-14-2014, 10:11 AM
Nelsen's biggest challenge is that Leiweke has personal relationships now with Defoe and Bradley (and maybe Dero).

These 3 or 4 guys and their entourages are running the club, that's modern sports life, let's not kid ourselves.

What if RN becomes part of this entourage?

spark
01-14-2014, 10:11 AM
If Los Angeles can do it en route to two MLS Cups, we should be able to navigate the egos too.

- Scott

Yes but the main difference is LA went and got arguably the best N.American coach ever. Arena was/is the boss, and had the resume to back it up. Nelsen does not and at some point it is very legitimate concern that someone will question his abilities and qualifications (as a coach).

Yohan
01-14-2014, 10:13 AM
Off topic, but you think Caldwell will keep the armband with Bradley coming in? I kind of assumed it was Bradleys now. With Dero as a hockey style alternate
Bradley has done shit for TFC. You gotta earn captaincy. And yes, I'm aware captaincy are gave away so cheaply in TFC.
Caldwell has been in the trenches for TFC, and I think Nelsen relies on Caldwell heavily to keep the lads happy. Caldwell is a pro.

Bradley, if he stays after Caldwell retires, will also be a good captain. Bradley is also a pro, works hard.

ManUtd4ever
01-14-2014, 10:22 AM
Nelsen's biggest challenge is that Leiweke has personal relationships now with Defoe and Bradley (and maybe Dero).

These 3 or 4 guys and their entourages are running the club, that's modern sports life, let's not kid ourselves.

Nelsen has had personal relationships outside of TFC with Defoe and DeRo for many years.

Waggy
01-14-2014, 10:23 AM
Bradley has done shit for TFC. You gotta earn captaincy. And yes, I'm aware captaincy are gave away so cheaply in TFC.
Caldwell has been in the trenches for TFC, and I think Nelsen relies on Caldwell heavily to keep the lads happy. Caldwell is a pro.

Bradley, if he stays after Caldwell retires, will also be a good captain. Bradley is also a pro, works hard.

Fair point, and very likely to be the case (maybe not until Caldwell retires but at least until the new guys are integrated and are only dealing with on field stuff, not fitting in to a new team/dealing with a new city). My thinking was that while Caldwell has done an admirable job, when you give Bradley 6 million a year to be your general, I just don't see the real point in assigning him to a role as a lieutenant. This year for once TFC really won't be lacking for leadership, that's for sure. The armband hopefully won't ever be given out by default ever again.

notthesun
01-14-2014, 10:26 AM
Winning solves a lot of these issues. If we're winning games, the locker room will probably be just fine. It's when we're losing that you might hear things starting to come out.

Yohan
01-14-2014, 10:27 AM
Fair point, and very likely to be the case (maybe not until Caldwell retires but at least until the new guys are integrated and are only dealing with on field stuff, not fitting in to a new team/dealing with a new city). My thinking was that while Caldwell has done an admirable job, when you give Bradley 6 million a year to be your general, I just don't see the real point in assigning him to a role as a lieutenant. This year for once TFC really won't be lacking for leadership, that's for sure. The armband hopefully won't ever be given out by default ever again.
not giving Bradley the armband is also going to make a point; you earn your place in this team, regardless of how much money or what your playing resume is. same with playing mins. I hope Nelsen has the balls to bench Bradley or Defoe if they don't perform. That's how you earn respect in the locker room. (Petke benched Henry once. Earned tons of respect and Henry and Petke kissed and made up later)

Graeme
01-14-2014, 10:27 AM
I have to imagine the locker room is super super super pumped to play next season. It will not be a problem unless the team implodes on the field.

Waggy
01-14-2014, 10:29 AM
not giving Bradley the armband is also going to make a point; you earn your place in this team, regardless of how much money or what your playing resume is. same with playing mins. I hope Nelsen has the balls to bench Bradley or Defoe if they don't perform. That's how you earn respect in the locker room. (Petke benched Henry once. Earned tons of respect and Henry and Petke kissed and made up later)

Totally agree. And tbh, I think Nelsen has both the stones and the gravitas to bench either of them should the situation call for it. Treating the DP's different from the rest of the squad will guarantee cause the problems the OP of this thread was trying to avoid. If I'm making 39 000 a year and I'm held to a higher standard of play/effort and behavior than the guys making millions, I'm going mental.

cmonyoureds
01-14-2014, 10:34 AM
I'd imagine this is on the players more than Nelson.
If these guys come in as big time charlies, then yeah, I can see the locker room becoming divided.

Beckham used to let guys live in his guest house while they played for the Galaxy. Pretty sure they didn't grumble about that much.
Not that Defoe/Bradley have a guest house to loan out, but if they have the same type of attitude, then things will be fine.

(oh and a quick trip to Shoeless to pick up the first round wouldn't hurt either Mr. Defoe/Bradley g:D )

Waggy
01-14-2014, 10:37 AM
^^^^ I was actually thinking that. If Bradley and Defoe wanted to do something nice, rent 6-7 units in a decent building near the training facility and offer em to the younger guys. It would be some really really cheap good will and also be a little perk of taking a lower salary to come to Toronto that skirts the salary cap.

spark
01-14-2014, 10:49 AM
^^^^ I was actually thinking that. If Bradley and Defoe wanted to do something nice, rent 6-7 units in a decent building near the training facility and offer em to the younger guys. It would be some really really cheap good will and also be a little perk of taking a lower salary to come to Toronto that skirts the salary cap.

??? Yes I suppose would be nice, but I'm pretty sure there isn't an unspoken part of a DPs contract is to be a mommy and daddy to the players on $40k or less. Beckham might have loaned out his guest house, but there are also stories of going out for team dinners and everyone looking at him to pick up the bill. At the end of the day the new DPs are under no obligation to do anything to subsidize their teammates and I don't think we should be expecting it. If anything MLSE dropping this crazy cash should indicate they could probably house every player in one of their condos if they felt like it. Hell they could build one!

brad
01-14-2014, 10:53 AM
I think it all depends on performance. If the DP's perform like DP's, I don't think there will be an issue. The issues will start if they don't and the lower wage players are outperforming them. Imagine the situation if Defoe doesn't score and DeRo does....

Jack
01-14-2014, 11:20 AM
If we get on a winning roll, that will take care of a lot of it. And what Brad said.

lanarkist
01-14-2014, 11:29 AM
My only concern is Dero. I loved bringing him back, but my fear (and my gut just from seeing the way he looked yesterday) is that part of the reason he came back on a reduced rate was to finish unfinished business, ie prove he was worth the money all along, and do so by trying to out do the two highest paid players in MLS (and Gilberto). I hope I'm wrong, I love Dero, but there was something about the way he interacted with the coverage that rubbed me the wrong way.

I don't think you'll see the issue arise with the other guys as I think they'll respect that they aren't on the same level as the DPs. I fear Dero will have a chip on his shoulder though.

Yohan
01-14-2014, 11:32 AM
My only concern is Dero. I loved bringing him back, but my fear (and my gut just from seeing the way he looked yesterday) is that part of the reason he came back on a reduced rate was to finish unfinished business, ie prove he was worth the money all along, and do so by trying to out do the two highest paid players in MLS (and Gilberto). I hope I'm wrong, I love Dero, but there was something about the way he interacted with the coverage that rubbed me the wrong way.

I don't think you'll see the issue arise with the other guys as I think they'll respect that they aren't on the same level as the DPs. I fear Dero will have a chip on his shoulder though.
as long as DeRo understands there is no I in Team, and he does what Nelsen tells him to, I don't care how he tries to outperform other players

Ivy
01-14-2014, 11:42 AM
Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Defoe and Bradley are making the money they deserve.
If these 44k a year guys want that kind of money, work hard, train hard, and prove yourself. Some players just aren't cut out to make that money. If they resent the rich and famous, pro football isn't for them. There will always be someone who's making more money and possibly doing less work - that's the nature of the beast.

lanarkist
01-14-2014, 11:49 AM
as long as DeRo understands there is no I in Team, and he does what Nelsen tells him to, I don't care how he tries to outperform other players

Agreed, I think he's the only one to worry about though. There is always an M and an E in team and he has an I on the back of his jersey

OgtheDim
01-14-2014, 11:57 AM
Nelsen addressed this last year already.

Managing a room full of alpha males is not easy. He relies up on the one commonality they all seem to have - they want to work hard in training and on the pitch to get somewhere.

Without that, they don't stay and they don't play.

TFC Tifoso
01-14-2014, 12:03 PM
not to open the whole DeRo thing up again (lord no), but from some of the responses here I'd have to guess that if your boss promised you a raise/promotion, then basically told you to go F yourself, you'd all keep at your desk plugging away without making a peep about it to your co-workers or wanting to work elsewhere right?......and let's never forget he was dealing with Mo friggin' Johnson.....

DeRo himself said that after 5 minutes of conversation he could see that the culture at TFC has changed....let's give him the benefit of the doubt that he has made some changes too......

trane
01-14-2014, 12:12 PM
Bradley needs to be made Captain, and everyone else not named Defoe, needs to shut the fuck up and follow. Keep it simple stupid.

OgtheDim
01-14-2014, 12:12 PM
not to open the whole DeRo thing up again (lord no), ....

Then don't. What's done was done.

The issue people are raising is about who he is now. And having heard him interviewed, I'm not sure he has wrapped his head around somebody bigger in the dressing room pecking order who will demand the ball and shoot on site (Defoe) and another guy bigger in the dressing room pecking order who will demand the ball and make moves (Gilberto) and another guy bigger in the dressing room pecking order who will demand the ball back in order to spread things out rather then shoot from way out (Bradley).

I hope he can relearn to focus on passing cause if he gets in and starts shooting from outside the box like he has done for the last few seasons, Gilberto and Defoe and Bradley will, and rightly so, put him down a peg.



The first free kick from a good position is going to be interesting.

TFC Tifoso
01-14-2014, 12:45 PM
What's done was done.

exactly....yet people still harp on it......

GlenM
01-14-2014, 12:51 PM
I think naming the Right Captain will help.

The Manager manages, The Captain leads.

I don't think I would name one now, let the preseason determine who the leaders (Captain) will be.

This will be Neilsens biggest test because he has no excuse with the team signings.

I still like Caldwell as the Captain carried over from last year.

If one of the new signings wants to be Captain they'll have to earn it not get it because of past experience or popularity.

It'll still no doubt be a huge task for Neilsen either way.

GlenM

Detroit_TFC
01-14-2014, 12:57 PM
I think Leiweke's experience with Ruud Gullit showed that the big name manager for big time players theory was a bust. That said, RN is no Bruce Arena. If the team underperforms, it's likely RN will go and seems RN already knows that.

OgtheDim
01-14-2014, 12:58 PM
Caldwell got the captaincy after O'Dea left. He keeps it until he offers it up or leaves.

Who was the alternate last season? I think it only switched when Caldwell was red carded.

TFC Tifoso
01-14-2014, 12:58 PM
I still like Caldwell as the Captain carried over from last year.

If one of the new signings wants to be Captain they'll have to earn it not get it because of past experience or popularity.


me too.....the vets/DP's will have their vocal influence regardless of being Captain or not.....

imo, a good teams starts with an organized defense.....and having a defender as Captain just emphasizes that point.......always been a fan of GK's and defenders wearing the armband.....

T-boy
01-14-2014, 02:00 PM
Caldwell should remain captain. He hasn't done anything to warrant captaincy being "taken away". Other big clubs commonly have their experienced CB as captain, like John Terry at Chelsea, while they have other "star players" who clearly would make more money and get all the headlines. Caldwell has more experience than Bradley, even though Bradley is the better overall player, but Cadlwell has done a good job so far and appears to be respected.

ensco
01-14-2014, 02:25 PM
What if RN becomes part of this entourage?

Could happen. Who knows?

It's not the way I'd bet it.

themodelcitizen
01-14-2014, 02:29 PM
I think his biggest problem is that he's still the club's best centre back, and we need him! Glass knees aside

ensco
01-14-2014, 02:32 PM
This is a 100% restart. Bradley is the captain from the first second of training camp. I'd bet money on it.

The debate is interesting, but Caldwell has been here for only six months, and sure, he did a nice job, but it won't matter now, he wasn't really part of anything that mattered.

trane
01-14-2014, 02:34 PM
Bradley may not be a back but he is just about as good a defender as we have. I think you bring Bradley in to be the guy, you need to make him the guy. That is what he would likely want.

ag futbol
01-14-2014, 02:45 PM
Bradley may not be a back but he is just about as good a defender as we have. I think you bring Bradley in to be the guy, you need to make him the guy. That is what he would likely want.
Yeah I agree with this. Very hard to picture anything but Bradley being the captain.

Caldwell did an admirable job under the circumstances, but things have changed. We brought in a superior footballer with obvious captaincy qualities who we are clearly building around. This isn't an extension of last years TFC, it is something new and the captaincy will go in a different direction as well.

EastYork
01-14-2014, 02:52 PM
I think it's simple. Bradley is your general, your leader, your best player and he should be your first captain from day 1. Teams name 3 captains and for TFC they should be, in my opinion, Bradley, Caldwell and Dero. I am sure Caldwell won't have a problem with Bradley being the captain. To be honest I will be shocked if Bradley is not the captain on March 15th.

OgtheDim
01-14-2014, 02:55 PM
Except.......TFC has been talking about how these are additions to the strong core we have.

brad
01-14-2014, 02:57 PM
Captaincy is not necessarily about footballing skill or pedigree, it's about leadership. Caldwell was captain at Burnley and Birmingham before coming here - he is a leader.

Personally I think handing the captaincy over to Bradley sends the wrong message. It says we are making decisions based on reputation.

C.Ronaldo
01-14-2014, 02:59 PM
Dero is here to prove something. I want him to prove something.

Why do so many around here think its a bad thing to have someone so motivated and determined. DERO brings passion to this team. Something we lacked outside of Osario for a while now.

If we are down 1-0 with 5 minutes to go, Dero is the man I want out there with Defoe and Bradley. (until Gilberto or someone else proves otherwise)

Yohan
01-14-2014, 03:25 PM
This is a 100% restart. Bradley is the captain from the first second of training camp. I'd bet money on it.

The debate is interesting, but Caldwell has been here for only six months, and sure, he did a nice job, but it won't matter now, he wasn't really part of anything that mattered.
Except that he set the tone in the locker room. There was a lot of reason for players to bitch to the press (Ecks, Frei, Bekker) but you didn't see the sort of locker room drama like previous regimes, and I think Caldwell set that professionalism. Caldwell was captain in 2 other clubs. I don't think Bradley has been team captain yet. Caldwell is also here for another 2 seasons.

Mr. Bigby
01-14-2014, 03:57 PM
One of the great things about the new additions is that we have gone from a relative lack of clubhouse leadership to where there will be an number of proven leaders. Defoe may be quiet, but from everything I've read, he leads by example: first on the field for practice, last off, quiet and intense and willing to work where ever the coach wants him. Bradley clearly brings a history of on field leadership, DeRo in his own, sometimes out of step way, brings a hunger to succeed. Caldwell has proven himself in a tough season to be capable of holding the dressing room together and captained a team that may have been beaten but never gave up. The issue will be to have all of these leaders on the same page and pulling in the same direction. I fully believe that Nelsen - whatever you think of his tactical acumen - has his own proven qualities that will enable him to lead the leaders on the same journey.

ensco
01-14-2014, 04:17 PM
Except that he set the tone in the locker room. There was a lot of reason for players to bitch to the press (Ecks, Frei, Bekker) but you didn't see the sort of locker room drama like previous regimes, and I think Caldwell set that professionalism. Caldwell was captain in 2 other clubs. I don't think Bradley has been team captain yet. Caldwell is also here for another 2 seasons.

You have a point about his having already been a captain. Maybe you're right about what should happen, but I'd still bet it'll be Bradley.

T-boy
01-14-2014, 05:27 PM
In the end of the day, I don't really care who captain is - the fact that we have to actual ARGUE who the better player, better leader is, and we have option to chose from is just unbelievable! This is definitely a new TFC!

tfcleeds
01-14-2014, 10:00 PM
Either Caldwell or Bradley, I'm sure this team will be in good hands with whoever is captain. Regardless, I'm sure Caldwell will still be "captain" of the backline, and that's all that matters.

JuliquE
01-15-2014, 05:46 AM
There are a few different schools of thought, here:

If you give the captaincy to one of the DP's, whilst they would likely have the qualities to be successful in such a role, it might prove an uphill battle, given that it would be tough for them to empathize and demand better from the younger/lesser paid players, without being forced into a parental/babysitting role (subsidizing for them, as has been mentioned elsewhere). This could eventually take it's toll on whomever would be named captain, perhaps when we need them the most.

I also agree with Yohan, that stripping Caldwell of the captaincy sends the wrong message. He is, arguably, the best choice, having played at the highest levels, whilst still being on a comparable contract to the majority of players in the league. As such, he will be able to relate to everyone, which will help him. There's also something to be said of his apparent willingness to take on the role, in what was a tumultuous 2013 season. 47 goals allowed vs. 62 is a significant improvement, and that with him arriving mid-season -- not a balance you'd want to mess with, especially if we see new faces in the backline; players from the previous season will have formed an understanding with him and that respect will be there, but, with all the new faces (not only in the backline, mind), emphasizing his importance and, simultaneously, that of defending, through him retaining the armband, may prove crucial -- not that I think he's the type to mope around about it, were he not to retain the captaincy.

Winter used to say that he's not a fan of the keeper having the armband, as he is less likely to approach the ref. to get across the side's grievances and contest decisions, given that it would require leaving his goal untended (imagine a quick free-kick scenario); keepers have a limited time to set their walls and, so, even if the ref. insists on play restarting only after he's blown his whistle, there's hardly a window for the keeper-captain to get a word in. I do, however, agree that it's important to emphasize the importance of the defence-first mentality, with having a defender as captain.. especially when you consider that, to be fair, some offensive-minded players don't always carry their weight, when out of possession; a defender, being in the last line, before the keeper, in goal, will, instinctively, always keep others not doing their part in check -- the captaincy just gives them that bit more respectability.

I'm also not so sure that Bradley has ever been a team-captain on more than a stand-in basis. If I'm honest, the whole "rah-rah" business often required of a captain doesn't particularly suit his quiet/mysterious nature and could well be misinterpreted if the role were forced upon him. Some have said he would want to be captain, but I wouldn't have thought so, myself. Defoe, as has already been mentioned, is definitely more the type to lead by example; not necessarily the quite type, as he seems to be something of a comedian, but, when it comes to the business end of things, he will do his part and hope that others will match him.

** * **

At the end of the day, man-management and leading men are, quite possibly, Nelson's greatest qualities and I'm not as worried as it would appear some, here, are of him having a handle on things in the dressing room. With a year under his belt, now, and the respect he has garnered throughout his career, especially with his MLS background, I feel like he will have the confidence in himself, first and foremost, which will compliment his aforementioned natural talents.

The two more years (minimally) that we have with Caldwell should be enough time to, on merit, determine who's most deserving of the role of captain, for which I'm sure there will be no shortage of candidates -- certainly means to rejoice. =)

Gazza
01-15-2014, 06:02 AM
The flack that our best all-time player gets around here is pretty comical at times. DeRo has never been a locker room cancer. He's a strong personality, but he's a leader and a winner. He'll be the least of our problems.

OgtheDim
01-15-2014, 07:26 AM
The flack that our best all-time player gets around here is pretty comical at times. DeRo has never been a locker room cancer. He's a strong personality, but he's a leader and a winner. He'll be the least of our problems.

Yes, he was our best player.

He's not anymore.


His selfishness on the pitch is not only documented, he has said himself in the last week that this will continue. "I want the ball" is what he has said. Given our 3 DP's, and in particular how DeFoe is documented to be the same sort of player, (give him the ball and he will shoot), DeRo is definitely a potential issue for the locker room.

If he can change himself and pass when before he usually shot or dribbled, then he is an asset. We will see. But DeRo's has stated his game is give him the ball - and with Defoe and Gilberto and Bradley, that is just not going to happen.

Its up to Nelsen to get these guys on the same page.

Ivy
01-15-2014, 08:01 AM
Caldwell needs to stay captain until he deserves to lose it. I agree with the poster above that said giving it to Bradley now would send the wrong message to the team.

brad
01-15-2014, 08:45 AM
Bradley would make a good captain. He is known for being a leader on the field. A lot of USMNT supporters thought he would be there captain, and want him to be.

tfcleeds
01-15-2014, 09:26 AM
I think a case can easily be made for both. I'll leave it to RN to decide, but I don't think we can go wrong with either as captain. Although I definitely lean towards Caldwell retaining it.

Canary10
01-15-2014, 09:50 AM
The flack that our best all-time player gets around here is pretty comical at times. DeRo has never been a locker room cancer. He's a strong personality, but he's a leader and a winner. He'll be the least of our problems.

Seriously? I can already see him being a problem based on the last 4-5 days.

JuliquE
01-15-2014, 09:58 AM
Bradley would make a good captain. He is known for being a leader on the field. A lot of USMNT supporters thought he would be there captain, and want him to be.
Right.. but, that's the U.S. national side that people think he would be a perfect fit for, as captain; language barrier and a number of other variables can sometimes play a role in whether or not a natural born leader is suited to a specific leadership role and, as much as I love, love, love this signing, the optics of an American walking in and snatching our Canadian side's armband is a totally different story, especially as we embark upon what will likely be our most memorable season, to date. Given the chance to endear himself to the fans, it could well prove to be a no-brainer for him to captain TFC.. but, with him locked up for 6 years, I don't see why we should force things and potentially cause a bit of a stir, in so doing.

I just feel like the captaincy, here, has been thrust upon nearly every past captain; I'd like for it to mean something to the person taking it on. As Shakes had alluded to, elsewhere, the players coming in aren't going to have an affinity for Toronto, the city nor club -- certainly not right away; after some time, they may well have and perhaps would aspire to take on such a role as captain.

Yes, Caldwell's not been here long, but, I don't see the rush in handing it to Bradley. You even have to wonder if Bradley and the like would have to fight off their own subconscious mind from thinking that the club is Mickey Mouse -- that they're above everyone else, when they, not only walk right into the side, but, take the captaincy from a well-respected and extremely important member of the club, as Caldwell, given the difference he's made, since joining, undoubtedly is.

We have, at least, a couple years with Caldwell, in which to see who organically stands out as a natural pick.

shwade
01-15-2014, 10:20 AM
Seriously? I can already see him being a problem based on the last 4-5 days.

Haha right? DeRo will be Ryan Nelsens biggest challenge...hopefully he doesn't score more than defoe.

OgtheDim
01-15-2014, 10:28 AM
Haha right? DeRo will be Ryan Nelsens biggest challenge...hopefully he doesn't score more than defoe.

Not sure if you are, but there are people on twitter and Facebook seriously suggesting DeRo is as good as Defoe. Things like "Disrespect to DeRo to not have him on the new banner" and "Should be 4 people up there." etc. etc. etc. Some people need a reality check as to both how good DeRo was and how good he is now. I hope he contributes. But the man is being paid to provide a winning attitude, not to do that winning on his own.

Wooster_TFC
01-15-2014, 10:40 AM
Of our 26 current roster players (included Laba, didn't include Eckersley), 20 are returning from last year. That's some good continuity. At the end of last year, you could see that the players who were there were playing for each other, and not just mailing it in. How much of that is on Nelsen, and how much of that is on Caldwell being captain? Just for continuity, I see Caldwell remaining captain. Also, as has been noted in the past, players put way less emphasis on the armband than fans and journalists do. Bradley and Defoe will be leaders on and off the pitch, regardless of whether they have the armband. Same goes for DeRo for the young Canadians.

Now, with DeRo, I don't think there are going to be any problems. He signed his contract well aware that he was coming in as a depth player/potential starter, rather than being THE guy. It would also have been dumb idea for management to avoid telling him that they were targeting potentially multiple big players (Gilberto was already signed at this point). The very fact that DeRo was even at the press conference (he knew beforehand what it was about - he tweeted a few days in advance welcoming Defoe and Bradley to TFC) means that there will be less issues than he had in the past.

Now, if 10-15 games in, DeRo has brought the goods and has double the amount of goals than Defoe, then there might be issues, but I doubt it. DeRo signed this contract full well knowing that there he is not the top dog, and he should be very motivated if the option year is big money based on performance this year.

Canary10
01-15-2014, 10:45 AM
Cronaldo coming in wouldn't dissuade DeRo from thinking he's the man.

Pookie
01-15-2014, 10:49 AM
If Los Angeles can do it en route to two MLS Cups, we should be able to navigate the egos too.

- Scott

And New York has never been able to navigate them thus far. Quarter final exits, no Open Cup.

Since the Beckham arrival, there have been 7 Cup finals. 2 won by LA and 5 won by the likes of Colorado, SKC, Columbus, RSL and Houston.

If you were an odds guy, they seem to favour the teams with the smaller gaps in spending though of course the sample size is small.

TFC can manage it if the players believe there is equity in management. That all are held to the same standards.

While salaries are different, the starting 11 will be treated the same in terms of results in the court of public opinion. If Bendik lets in a bad one, he wears the horns. Henry doesn't mark a player and it leads to a loss, he wears them. And while the media and casual fan might focus on that one moment in a game, the players know that there are many moments in a game that make a difference in the outcome. That can lead to some challenging situations particularly if the lower paid folks don't think that the higher paid guys are going all out and they are wearing the horns .

Reminds me of 2009 when only a very young Sam Cronin had the courage to step in front of the cameras and answer questions following that 5-0 NY loss. The "stars" were no where to be found. That situation can't repeat and Nelsen has to have the stones and ability to apply equal treatment to all... entourages aside.

If he can, it may work. If he can't, well, here we go again.

spark
01-15-2014, 11:25 AM
Great thread and good posts, Pookie.

I really don't follow the Leiweke = LA Galaxy logic. LA is Bruce Arena.

And lets not forget - LA didn't win a cup until the fifth year Beckham was on the team. Everything we know about this league is that spending does not equal immediate success.

brad
01-15-2014, 11:47 AM
And New York has never been able to navigate them thus far. Quarter final exits, no Open Cup.

Since the Beckham arrival, there have been 7 Cup finals. 2 won by LA and 5 won by the likes of Colorado, SKC, Columbus, RSL and Houston.

If you were an odds guy, they seem to favour the teams with the smaller gaps in spending though of course the sample size is small.



Is be curious to see salary distributions between the teams you mention. 3 DP's tie up a lot of your cap in 3 players. I wonder if the other teams were built in such a way that the cap was spread around more allowing for more depth. Might not be, without DP's they could still have players at the max an be in the same state cap wise.

Still - it's interesting to me. What is the best path to success in this league. Load up with three quality players and make the most with what you have left? Or build a deeper squad that doesn't have te individual quality, but is better/deeper overall.

I've always wishes we'd go the RSL route rather than the LAG route. But we've gone the LAG route, so I'll strap in, enjoy the ride and hope Defoe doesn't tear his ACL the first time he plays on turf....

brad
01-15-2014, 11:51 AM
Great thread and good posts, Pookie.

I really don't follow the Leiweke = LA Galaxy logic. LA is Bruce Arena.

And lets not forget - LA didn't win a cup until the fifth year Beckham was on the team. Everything we know about this league is that spending does not equal immediate success.

The thing that stands out about LAG when the started winning was not how good the DP's - but the quality of the rest of the team.

That was their key - the rest of the team was a really solid MLS side. When the DP's were out for a period, they still got decent results. And as you mention - that was all Bruce A. He deserves massive credit for assembling the rest of that team. It's not easy to build a good team on the sorts of salaries those guys make.

Pookie
01-15-2014, 11:57 AM
^ again brad, I don't worry at all about the league's assigned budget (or cap as it has become known as). Budgets are paid down with allocation money and given that amounts and reasons for allocation are never published, the budget can flex significantly. Whether these DPs take up a big portion of the gap is never known... they might take up the same amount as DeRo for all we know or might take 1/3 of the pie. Until transparency exists, it's just a guess.

What I think is a big issue is the actual size of the paycheque. That's what goes into the player's bank accounts and when a guy takes the bus to work and another drives a Ferrari, that's something deep in human nature that would be noticed.

A quick look at MLS salaries by club and by year (base compensation) shows that the difference between the highest and lowest paid player on the MLS Cup winners and finalists (not including LA) was about $200-300k. If you compared starters, the differences were likely less than that.

Commie Red
01-15-2014, 12:00 PM
"Let him be the captain; you be the star." -- These words, directed at Landon Donovan concerning David Beckham wanting to be captain of LA Galaxy, were, apparently, the start of their "feud". Donovan didn't mind Beckham being the captain - but felt disrespected because of the way he was asked to hand it over.

Hopefully, Defoe and Bradley read Grant Wahl's "The Beckham Experiment" to get an idea about what they may be in for. It gives good insight. Apparently, unlike Donovan, Beckham didn't pick up a single team dinner tab in his first year -- although he called team meetings at restaurants. Beckham was so accustomed to having meals with fellow millionaire players he didn't realize many of his teammates relied on their $40 per diem to get by. However, much of the real disillusion with Beckham came with his loan to AC Milan. Many supporters and fellow players (including Donovan) felt Beckham was not really committed to the Galaxy. They felt he was just using the MLS as a money grab and wasn't interested if the team won or not. Other players felt they were being used and their opportunities for success at something they really cared about was being squandered. Of course, that book was written in 2009 and everything changed for the Galaxy and Beckham after that.

Detroit_TFC
01-15-2014, 12:00 PM
Things may have gone better in LAG if DB was actually fit when transferred and if Simon Fuller and other Brand Beckham impressarios didn't try to run the team behind Lalas back (or in front of his face for that matter). Once both those got sorted out, things improved.

PopePouri
01-15-2014, 12:00 PM
One of the reasons why they won MLS Cup was because all 3 quality DPs saw consistent minutes and were in form over the playoffs.

We haven't had a DP who hasn't been injury-prone.

Pookie
01-15-2014, 12:01 PM
The thing that stands out about LAG when the started winning was not how good the DP's - but the quality of the rest of the team.

That was their key - the rest of the team was a really solid MLS side. When the DP's were out for a period, they still got decent results. And as you mention - that was all Bruce A. He deserves massive credit for assembling the rest of that team. It's not easy to build a good team on the sorts of salaries those guys make.

Agreed. The "Domestic Core" is the engine that drives most teams. It has certainly driven all the MLS Cup winners without big names and as you highlight, was a great contributing factor in LA's success. Eg. Omar G was drafted by LA and is now one of their DPs. Do we have a current young player on our roster that we think would grow into a DP?

shwade
01-15-2014, 12:51 PM
Not sure if you are, but there are people on twitter and Facebook seriously suggesting DeRo is as good as Defoe. Things like "Disrespect to DeRo to not have him on the new banner" and "Should be 4 people up there." etc. etc. etc. Some people need a reality check as to both how good DeRo was and how good he is now. I hope he contributes. But the man is being paid to provide a winning attitude, not to do that winning on his own.

Wasn't suggesting anywhere near DeRo being as good as defoe lol. Just don't want another 'incident' if he ends up bagging more than, let's say, Bradley...(which he should).

T-boy
01-15-2014, 01:00 PM
Cronaldo coming in wouldn't dissuade DeRo from thinking he's the man.

Canary, I really get that you don't like DeRo (its extremely obvious!) but I don't see anything wrong in footballers saying they are great and having ego's. In MY opinion, a great ego makes for a great footballer! Especially good forwards, they need to be selfish, that's why they score goals and make solid decisions in front of the net. I also see how sarcastic DeRo is when he says he's great. In the presser last Friday I could see him smirking when he was saying "that's why they signed me", DeRo laughed afterwards too, as I'm sure he knew there was a certain irony to his statement (I'm sure he already knew that Defoe and Bradley were on their way).

Mourinho calls himself "the special one". Yea, its kinda funny, but its his ego that also makes him a damn good manager! If you take that ego away, he would be half the manager he is. DeRo can keep his ego, I think it makes him a good footballer and adds to his quality.

Chinatownchef
01-15-2014, 01:06 PM
Agreed. The "Domestic Core" is the engine that drives most teams. It has certainly driven all the MLS Cup winners without big names and as you highlight, was a great contributing factor in LA's success. Eg. Omar G was drafted by LA and is now one of their DPs. Do we have a current young player on our roster that we think would grow into a DP?

Absoluely, true. It will be a testament if Nelsen could develop say Jonathan Osorio into an Attacking Midfielder that can say score 12 goals in a season. A goal not unrealistic considering how many he scored last year on a bad team. Osorio would be that current young player I think most of us agree that has the greatest chance into developing into a DP.

lanarkist
01-15-2014, 01:09 PM
Do we have a current young player on our roster that we think would grow into a DP?

I think both Henry and Osorio could very well be DPs in the future, or find their way to Europe, I do think we have true talents in them

levyashin
01-15-2014, 02:50 PM
Keeping the dressing room is the most vital task facing R.N.
Reading Fergies book makes you realise how difficult this is.
ALL of the players have to be on the same page for a club to be successful.
If there is a problem it gets removed immediately.
Players can hate each others guts outside but inside DO YOUR JOB.:hump:


K

Gazza
01-15-2014, 07:26 PM
Yes, he was our best player.

He's not anymore.


His selfishness on the pitch is not only documented, he has said himself in the last week that this will continue. "I want the ball" is what he has said. Given our 3 DP's, and in particular how DeFoe is documented to be the same sort of player, (give him the ball and he will shoot), DeRo is definitely a potential issue for the locker room.

If he can change himself and pass when before he usually shot or dribbled, then he is an asset. We will see. But DeRo's has stated his game is give him the ball - and with Defoe and Gilberto and Bradley, that is just not going to happen.

Its up to Nelsen to get these guys on the same page.

One of the best players the MLS has ever seen. Has won titles and individual trophies. Teammates and coaches love him. Single-handedly won us the Canadian Championship and yes, was our best player.

He's always been a confident guy, and has never caused problems in the locker room. Of course he wants the ball, and he has always worked well with teammates up front. Some times he's been guilty of doing it all himself which I can't blame him for since I've seen those games for the national team or tfc and wondered who the heck he had to pass it to?

I think people are still clinging to that poor-judgement gesture he made out of frustration when he was promised the world to uproot his family and lived up to his end of the bargain, when all the promises were broken that were made to him. Injury and age have caught up with him, but he wants to prove he still has it, and I think we'll benefit from that.

OgtheDim
01-15-2014, 07:32 PM
I'm not basing my opinion on that gesture.

SoccMan2
01-15-2014, 08:26 PM
Bradley captain should not even be up for discussion this guy is a born leader tough as nails a natural leader if you hear people who know him and have followed his career you soon figure out that it's an easy call Bradley captain end of story. In terms of DeRo and all the haters out there already jumping to conclusion that he will be a problem child on this team relax take some medication if it will help, if somehow this team does not perform which I doubt at an expected rate from the start, the guy to blame will be Nelson and no one else!

ensco
01-15-2014, 08:33 PM
Keeping the dressing room is the most vital task facing R.N.
Reading Fergies book makes you realise how difficult this is.
ALL of the players have to be on the same page for a club to be successful.
If there is a problem it gets removed immediately.
Players can hate each others guts outside but inside DO YOUR JOB.:hump:


K

Or read The Beckham Experiment.

Wull
01-15-2014, 09:47 PM
Given that nelsen managed to alienate 3 of our more loyal and professional players last year (Frei, Koev and Ecks), I'm not 100% convinced his man-management skills are where we'd like them to be. Hopefully he learned something from it but judging by his comments at the end of year presser, I doubt he actually did. If he treats some of the players coming in like that, I think we're going to see some problems although winning does seem to make everything less of an issue so here's hoping

pdubs
01-15-2014, 10:02 PM
Given that nelsen managed to alienate 3 of our more loyal and professional players last year (Frei, Koev and Ecks), I'm not 100% convinced his man-management skills are where we'd like them to be. Hopefully he learned something from it but judging by his comments at the end of year presser, I doubt he actually did. If he treats some of the players coming in like that, I think we're going to see some problems although winning does seem to make everything less of an issue so here's hoping

Bendik proved his worth our true #1. Frei lost his spot.
Koev was injured the whole time any only scored in reserve game. Nelson wanted him to play but Koev couldn't get fit.
Ecks is do to make $400,000- $500,000 this year. Not worth it, why put time into someone you know won't be playing the following season. And his form was questionable. Ecks had his opportunity to play, got injured and lost his spot.

Caldwell had nothing but praise for Nelson. Say he is biased or whatever but gave Nelson his confidence. I think context is very important and we tend to forget about it. Prime example is Nelson's post game interviews. If you read the transcript you get a very different perspective then from listening to an audio/video of the same conversation.

bman27
01-15-2014, 10:15 PM
Bendik proved his worth our true #1. Frei lost his spot.
Koev was injured the whole time any only scored in reserve game. Nelson wanted him to play but Koev couldn't get fit.
Ecks is do to make $400,000- $500,000 this year. Not worth it, why put time into someone you know won't be playing the following season. And his form was questionable. Ecks had his opportunity to play, got injured and lost his spot.

Caldwell had nothing but praise for Nelson. Say he is biased or whatever but gave Nelson his confidence. I think context is very important and we tend to forget about it. Prime example is Nelson's post game interviews. If you read the transcript you get a very different perspective then from listening to an audio/video of the same conversation.

Also, keep in mind how some of our media was framing those quotes in their stories and reports. there are a few of them who have made it clear how they felt about Nelson's appointment from the beginning and IMHO it showed throughout the season.

pdubs
01-15-2014, 10:18 PM
Also, keep in mind how some of our media was framing those quotes in their stories and reports. there are a few of them who have made it clear how they felt about Nelson's appointment from the beginning and IMHO it showed throughout the season.

exactly I think it is overblown.

tfcleeds
01-15-2014, 10:23 PM
Bendik proved his worth our true #1. Frei lost his spot.



I agree with you on the first part. But Frei never got a chance. (Yes, I remember the shellacking in Montreal, but still).

Wull
01-15-2014, 10:25 PM
Bendik proved his worth our true #1. Frei lost his spot.
Koev was injured the whole time any only scored in reserve game. Nelson wanted him to play but Koev couldn't get fit.
Ecks is do to make $400,000- $500,000 this year. Not worth it, why put time into someone you know won't be playing the following season. And his form was questionable. Ecks had his opportunity to play, got injured and lost his spot.

Caldwell had nothing but praise for Nelson. Say he is biased or whatever but gave Nelson his confidence. I think context is very important and we tend to forget about it. Prime example is Nelson's post game interviews. If you read the transcript you get a very different perspective then from listening to an audio/video of the same conversation.

Caldwell said something about maybe he should have been more of a link between squad and management suggesting that there was an issue. And let's not even get into nelsen's deluded post-match comments. It has nothing to do with what I'm referring to.

You don't tell people Ecks is injured when he's fit and ready to play, Same with Califf. You don't leave your senior guys whistling in the wind for weeks on end about their position and status. You don't mock Danny for trying to get the young guys enough of a wage to make ends meet in a city like this.

And let's not forget his substitutions (and lack thereof) during so many games last year that had just about everybody scratching their head or tearing their hair out.

pdubs
01-15-2014, 10:39 PM
Caldwell said something about maybe he should have been more of a link between squad and management suggesting that there was an issue. And let's not even get into nelsen's deluded post-match comments. It has nothing to do with what I'm referring to.

You don't tell people Ecks is injured when he's fit and ready to play, Same with Califf. You don't leave your senior guys whistling in the wind for weeks on end about their position and status. You don't mock Danny for trying to get the young guys enough of a wage to make ends meet in a city like this.

And let's not forget his substitutions (and lack thereof) during so many games last year that had just about everybody scratching their head or tearing their hair out.

Look Koev's, Ecks, and Frei all knew it was over for them. You said he alienated them, I am responding to that point. The point is Koev was never fit, he knew it was over for him. Frei just lost his spot whether he never got a chance doesn't matter.

With regard to Eck's I remember a quote saying he was confused as he stated he wasn't injured and wasn't sure why he wasn't playing. We don't have the whole story the other side. You can even connect the dots and say based on the Koev situation (badly injured, came back too early maybe and had that calf issue that wouldn't go away) that Eck's was going down same path. Based on the information we have I think it is safe to say Eck's was out with a nagging Hamstring injury for an extended period. Bloom came in and honestly didn't do anything to really warrant his removal from the first team. With the later part of the season left, Nelson wanted to get a good look at Bloom.

Since you raise the issue of man-management skills I will also suggest Nelson never lost the locker room. No evidence to suggest he did The three players you point out have several things in common.
1. All injured and missed large amount of time (Ecks less so but was out with that hamstring injury)
2. Replaced by players who did nothing to warrant removal (Bendik and Bloom). Koev was never fit.
3. Since they weren't playing and command a large salary knew their futures at the club were less then certain. In fact we knew Frei would be gone, Koev wouldn't get DP money again, and Ecks would never ever get $400,000 t $500,000 as a fullback this upcoming season regardless if he played well!

Look i am not Nelson has to improve his management skills. However I think people are quick to blame him. These 3 players in particular have reasons to not praise Nelson.

pdubs
01-15-2014, 10:40 PM
I agree with you on the first part. But Frei never got a chance. (Yes, I remember the shellacking in Montreal, but still).

I agree. Problem is Bendik did nothing to warrant his removal. In fact you could argue Bendik was our top 1 or 2 players this past season and kept us in games we had no business being in.

Wull
01-15-2014, 10:49 PM
Look Koev's, Ecks, and Frei all knew it was over for them. You said he alienated them, I am responding to that point. The point is Koev was never fit, he knew it was over for him. Frei just lost his spot whether he never got a chance doesn't matter.

With regard to Eck's I remember a quote saying he was confused as he stated he wasn't injured and wasn't sure why he wasn't playing. We don't have the whole story the other side. You can even connect the dots and say based on the Koev situation (badly injured, came back too early maybe and had that calf issue that wouldn't go away) that Eck's was going down same path. Based on the information we have I think it is safe to say Eck's was out with a nagging Hamstring injury for an extended period. Bloom came in and honestly didn't do anything to really warrant his removal from the first team.

Since you raise the issue of man-management skills I will also suggest Nelson never lost the locker room. No evidence to suggest he did The three players you point out have several things in common.
1. All injured and missed large amount of time (Ecks less so but was out with that hamstring injury)
2. Replaced by players who did nothing to warrant removal (Bendik and Bloom). Koev was never fit.
3. Since they weren't playing and command a large salary knew their futures at the club were less them certain. In fact we knew Frei would be gone, Koev wouldn't get DP money again, and Ecks would never ever get $400,000 t $500,000 as a fullback.

Look i am not Nelson has to improve his management skills. However I think people are quick to blame him. These 3 players in particular have reasons to not praise Nelson.

Bloom was utter dogshit his first few games so to say he did nothing to warrant removal isn't correct in my opinion (his last few games were a lot better to be fair). And, just because someone has a big contract doesn't mean you freeze them out without talking to them for weeks, if they are acting like good pros then treat them as such. The players even found out about a player leaving from the press one day (I'll be damned if I can remember who but i remember o'dea being captain and saying he wasn't surprised as that tends to happen here). If the club don't start communicating better with the team as a whole and the coach in particular, I think it's going to create an issue where there really doesn't have to be one.

pdubs
01-15-2014, 10:54 PM
Bloom was utter dogshit his first few games so to say he did nothing to warrant removal isn't correct in my opinion (his last few games were a lot better to be fair). And, just because someone has a big contract doesn't mean you freeze them out without talking to them for weeks, if they are acting like good pros then treat them as such. The players even found out about a player leaving from the press one day (I'll be damned if I can remember who but i remember o'dea being captain and saying he wasn't surprised as that tends to happen here). If the club don't start communicating better with the team as a whole and the coach in particular, I think it's going to create an issue where there really doesn't have to be one.

I agree Bloom improved towards the end. All I am saying is on about $40,000-$50,000. Ecks has another zero on the end of that. Ecks also has the opportunity to approach Nelson and management and ask his status. Two way street these guys aren't babies, go up to management and figure out your own personal situation.

Wasn't that Urruti? And I think that was Koev's at practice asking where Urruti was. Maybe not can't remember either. Agree strange situation but again I think we need more details about when Nelson knew and how upper management was dealing with the contract. Nelson doesn't deal with contracts, GM's do. Foggy tho when Payne left, then Bez came little while later and Urruti was traded.

Think Nelson will take the first year and move forward and improve. If he doesn't he will be canned 10 or so games in. Just want to give him benefit of the doubt.

bman27
01-15-2014, 10:57 PM
Bloom was utter dogshit his first few games so to say he did nothing to warrant removal isn't correct in my opinion (his last few games were a lot better to be fair). And, just because someone has a big contract doesn't mean you freeze them out without talking to them for weeks, if they are acting like good pros then treat them as such. The players even found out about a player leaving from the press one day (I'll be damned if I can remember who but i remember o'dea being captain and saying he wasn't surprised as that tends to happen here). If the club don't start communicating better with the team as a whole and the coach in particular, I think it's going to create an issue where there really doesn't have to be one.

Not trying to defend Nelson automatically here, he definitely has a lot to work on as a manager.

but keep in mind the comments O'Dea made about players leaving were made during Kevin Payne's tenure. There were reports on here and elsewhere saying the relationship between Nelson and Payne eroded as the season went on... when it comes to player movement maybe the lines of communication were cut completely through the club. The main reason I suspect this is since leaving the club, O'Dea has had nothing but good things to say about Nelson, Chimed in a lot when guys like larson were putting pressure on him. You would figure if he didn't like what he did, he would probably keep his mouth shut.

tfcleeds
01-15-2014, 10:58 PM
Bloom was utter dogshit his first few games so to say he did nothing to warrant removal isn't correct in my opinion (his last few games were a lot better to be fair). And, just because someone has a big contract doesn't mean you freeze them out without talking to them for weeks, if they are acting like good pros then treat them as such. The players even found out about a player leaving from the press one day (I'll be damned if I can remember who but i remember o'dea being captain and saying he wasn't surprised as that tends to happen here). If the club don't start communicating better with the team as a whole and the coach in particular, I think it's going to create an issue where there really doesn't have to be one.

Pretty sure that was the Silva trade. Yeah, let's hope we conduct business in a bit more professional manner going forward.

jloome
01-15-2014, 11:10 PM
Bloom was utter dogshit his first few games

Based on what?!?

Unless I'm remembering this wrong in my middle-age infirmity. Richter was utter dogshit in his first few games. Bloom was not. He pretty much overachieved, if anything.

Koevs was a locker-room cancer; you're never going to actually change anything with a ridiculous statement about how hard life is for others, particularly when you're collecting enormous paycheques and doing fuck all for it, except to reinforce that issue with people it bothers most, the other players. He also dubbed us publicly "the worst team in the world". I have no problem believing that was the tip of the iceberg with his attitude. Great striker, shitty, shitty DP.

We don't know what's going on in the locker room. But Steven Caldwell has been about as respected a player as you get for most of his career and has nothing, at this stage of career, to lose by being honest. So his comments again make it more likely that a handful of players were bitching about things largely beyond Nelsen's control.

Also, why are you so quick to trust an offhand comment from Darren O'Dea who, for his salary, was pretty mediocre? Given how upset he might well have been to find himself on the move and knowing at the time of the comment that they were trying to get rid of him, he probably just made a pissy remark about something he should've known about. He's never been the brightest card in the deck, which is why he got the "Darren Oh Dear!" nickname at Leeds after getting himself thrown out of too many games for accumulated yellows.

Nelsen has a long track record of respect from his teammates for being a direct and honest person. On the other hand, many professional athletes have egos, are quick to temper, have been babied their entire professional lives and tend to say really, really dumb shit. I agree with you that there was at least the outward appearance of a communication breakdown, but given the changes the team was going under, it seems more logical that this was player sour grapes than the possibility that people have been misreading Ryan Nelsen's character for about fifteen years now.

jloome
01-15-2014, 11:11 PM
Pretty sure that was the Silva trade. Yeah, let's hope we conduct business in a bit more professional manner going forward.

You're assuming O'Dear was right and didn't just miss the meeting when they were told.

tfcleeds
01-15-2014, 11:27 PM
You're assuming O'Dear was right and didn't just miss the meeting when they were told.

You may be right - honestly, I don't remember all the details. I remember being pretty pissed off when it happened, so that may have coloured my judgment. I still think there is plenty of room for improvement in how Nelsen man-manages and communicates with the squad.

Cashcleaner
01-16-2014, 04:42 AM
Good points being raised - especially Pookie's core issue of egos and Nelsen's job of keeping such a "financially diverse" roster in line.

Honestly, I believe most professional athletes for most of the time will endeavor to play their best regardless of their pay rate simply because they want to win and have a competitive nature in them. Yes, occasionally a player who wishes to leave a club may show a drop in performance, or perhaps an increase if he is shooting for a new contract; but I don't think players are really all that concerned about what their teammates are taking home, and if they are, they are undoubtedly mindful that it's the league that decides the salary cap, as well as player minimum and maximum salaries, bonuses, and fees. This is especially true in the case of MLS where contracts are held between the individual player and the league (though admittedly, the club is still heavily represented in negotiations).

Perhaps all this talk is rather moot because I don't see Nelsen going anywhere this season. He'll be given up to the playoffs to prove he can coach and manage this squad. If we make the post-season, he'll be secure for 2015. If we fail again despite our huge injection of talent, he'll be out the door. But he's got from March to the end of October to show what he can do, and honestly, I think this club is just gonna want to win full-stop.

Canary10
01-16-2014, 09:34 AM
O'Dea has actually been one of Nelsen's biggest boosters on Twitter. He comments pretty regularly and positively on TFC stuff.

Regarding Nelsen, I think we can all agree the jury is out on him and this year will tell a lot.

brad
01-16-2014, 09:49 AM
I agree with you on the first part. But Frei never got a chance. (Yes, I remember the shellacking in Montreal, but still).

Victim of a tightly capped league. Take sentimentality out, why would you give Frei a chance? Bendik earned his spot, and makes $150k less than Frei. I do think a fit Frei would be better than Bendik, but Bendik is a good enough keeper in this league.

Wull
01-16-2014, 09:45 PM
Based on what?!?

Unless I'm remembering this wrong in my middle-age infirmity. Richter was utter dogshit in his first few games. Bloom was not. He pretty much overachieved, if anything.

Koevs was a locker-room cancer; you're never going to actually change anything with a ridiculous statement about how hard life is for others, particularly when you're collecting enormous paycheques and doing fuck all for it, except to reinforce that issue with people it bothers most, the other players. He also dubbed us publicly "the worst team in the world". I have no problem believing that was the tip of the iceberg with his attitude. Great striker, shitty, shitty DP.

We don't know what's going on in the locker room. But Steven Caldwell has been about as respected a player as you get for most of his career and has nothing, at this stage of career, to lose by being honest. So his comments again make it more likely that a handful of players were bitching about things largely beyond Nelsen's control.

Also, why are you so quick to trust an offhand comment from Darren O'Dea who, for his salary, was pretty mediocre? Given how upset he might well have been to find himself on the move and knowing at the time of the comment that they were trying to get rid of him, he probably just made a pissy remark about something he should've known about. He's never been the brightest card in the deck, which is why he got the "Darren Oh Dear!" nickname at Leeds after getting himself thrown out of too many games for accumulated yellows.

Nelsen has a long track record of respect from his teammates for being a direct and honest person. On the other hand, many professional athletes have egos, are quick to temper, have been babied their entire professional lives and tend to say really, really dumb shit. I agree with you that there was at least the outward appearance of a communication breakdown, but given the changes the team was going under, it seems more logical that this was player sour grapes than the possibility that people have been misreading Ryan Nelsen's character for about fifteen years now.

Based on him causing 2-3 goals against in his first few games.

Danny was well liked in the dressing room actually. You can ask around about that.

Steven is a good pro who was trying to control the situation with his comments.

I'm not "trusting an off-hand comment" if you can find the article he didn't actually mean it maliciously but it just seemed so run of the mill that they are kept in the dark the way he says it which was and is an issue (and that is coming from odea's biggest detractor).

I don't believe that all of these players are suddenly an issue after years of turmoil where they kept their nose clean. i honestly doubt you will hear any of them speak negatively on Ryan but it doesn't mean it isn't an issue although it is clearly far better than life under mo/cochrane and winter/mariner and possibly even payne/nelsen. I see this as more of an issue of ryan transitioning from being a player to a coach than good pros suddenly having sour grapes but hopefully it gets better going forward

spark
01-17-2014, 03:44 PM
Based on him causing 2-3 goals against in his first few games.

Which were against the Supporter Shield winners NYRB, and eventual MLS Cup winners SKC. His third game set up Dike in the 4-1 win v DCU.

I think the jury is still out but you are being a bit harsh on a guy who walked into the starting XI within a week and played two of the best teams in the league with guys he's never played with, or against.

Wull
01-18-2014, 03:48 PM
Which were against the Supporter Shield winners NYRB, and eventual MLS Cup winners SKC. His third game set up Dike in the 4-1 win v DCU.

I think the jury is still out but you are being a bit harsh on a guy who walked into the starting XI within a week and played two of the best teams in the league with guys he's never played with, or against.

I did say there was a big improvement in his last few games so i don't think I was being too harsh in the context of what we were talking about

jloome
01-18-2014, 06:53 PM
Based on him causing 2-3 goals against in his first few games.

No, "utter dogshit" is pretty unfair. I just went back and looked at the first four games, starting on Sept. 14. He gets beaten by Thierry Henry on the backpost, but didn't leave him more than a foot (the 'lean' goal) . Most MLS strikers probably don't finish that.

Then he's left mismatched against C.J. Sapong on a set piece at KC and Sapong beats him easily for a headed goal. Why is Mark Bloom left to cover their biggest, strongest striker?

That was it. He also created our second goal in the 4-1 win over DC by collecting the ball after Rey was tripped, keeping the play going by overlapping and crossing the ball in to Dike for his first goal.

Both the goals are very much team fuckups and he had an assist. Not exactly time to judge fairly.

And again, I didn't say Koevermans wasn't well-liked. I suggested he was going to cause divisions with some of his statements. Lots of guys are well liked but are still effectively hurting the unity of a team.

As for Nelsen's tactics, I agree the jury is still out, but the last few games of the season we looked a whole lot better than when Payne (who had been known for interfering with his coaches throughout his tenure at DC) was still here. Maybe that was due toadding Alvaro Rey and Dike, particularly the former.

Wull
01-19-2014, 10:08 AM
No, "utter dogshit" is pretty unfair. I just went back and looked at the first four games, starting on Sept. 14. He gets beaten by Thierry Henry on the backpost, but didn't leave him more than a foot (the 'lean' goal) . Most MLS strikers probably don't finish that.

Then he's left mismatched against C.J. Sapong on a set piece at KC and Sapong beats him easily for a headed goal. Why is Mark Bloom left to cover their biggest, strongest striker?

That was it. He also created our second goal in the 4-1 win over DC by collecting the ball after Rey was tripped, keeping the play going by overlapping and crossing the ball in to Dike for his first goal.

Both the goals are very much team fuckups and he had an assist. Not exactly time to judge fairly.

And again, I didn't say Koevermans wasn't well-liked. I suggested he was going to cause divisions with some of his statements. Lots of guys are well liked but are still effectively hurting the unity of a team.

As for Nelsen's tactics, I agree the jury is still out, but the last few games of the season we looked a whole lot better than when Payne (who had been known for interfering with his coaches throughout his tenure at DC) was still here. Maybe that was due toadding Alvaro Rey and Dike, particularly the former.

When you're averaging causing a goal against per game to start with, I don't think utter dogshit is too harsh for any player.

I'm not going to use a game against DC's youth team as a baromoter for anyone or anything.

I actually think the addition of Dike was the biggest help for the likes of Bloom, Convey, Rey, Morgan and even Bendik. Instead of crossing into the likes of Earnshaw like we had to in the early part of the season where they had to try and get creative to get it to him instead of the big defenders most teams have, they could just ping one into a decent area or in bendik's case just launch it upfield and we had someone who could compete well for it in the air, was vastly more mobile than Braun and who, even if he didn't win it, was enough of a menace to cause turnovers that weren't happening before he came in. I just hope they realize that in the preferred line up, this won't be an option again so they have to work on their through balls, cut backs and getting themselves into the box as support if our strikers are able to hold the ball up better this year

0bl1vious
01-19-2014, 05:51 PM
O'Dea has actually been one of Nelsen's biggest boosters on Twitter. He comments pretty regularly and positively on TFC stuff.

Such as this:


Darren O'Dea ‏@odea_darren (https://twitter.com/odea_darren) Jan 12 (https://twitter.com/odea_darren/status/422395863307390976)
MLS and TFC don't help itself with gaining credibility in the footballing world. A rapper has an influence on a player signing?? No chance!


Then this:


Darren O'Dea ‏@odea_darren (https://twitter.com/odea_darren) Jan 12 (https://twitter.com/odea_darren/status/422409678354907136)
I'm not downing the signing. Just giving an insight into how it's viewed outside of MLS. Either way it's brilliant for TFC.

He should get into politics after his football career is done.

Yohan
01-21-2014, 10:59 PM
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/01/21/tfc-captain-caldwell-excited-about-new-arrivals-new-season


“Everyone will learn that we have a set of rules and a code of conduct that we expect everybody at TFC to follow,” he said. “We’re trying to build that, a fantastic football club for the future ... I’m certain that everyone who is lucky enough to wear that shirt will do that.”

Caldwell, the captain