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View Full Version : Nelsen's 442: Is is the right fit for our squad?



jloome
01-01-2014, 06:58 PM
Here's a question: with the discussion continually coming back to the need for better creativity in the midfield, through both stronger wide players and a creative two-way guy to pair with Laba, would it not make more sense, if the DPs both come through, to play to our lineup's strengths and play in a 433?

If we play with Jackson as a wide midfielder, we still need someone to pair with Laba who can at the least compete with Osorio for time and probably really should be a more experienced, stronger player. If we start Jackson inside, we're gambling Osorio will be effective wide (although it does seem to fit his skill set).

Wouldn't it make more sense to put all three of our decent strikers on the field at the same time and play with a three man mid?

Something like:

--------------Bendik-------------
Morrow--Henry--Caldwell--Morgan
--------Jackson---Laba---------------
-------------Osorio/Rey---------------
-------Defoe--Dike--Gilberto----------

Or if we wanted to play flat,
Jackson--Henry--Caldwell--Morrow
-------Rey--Laba--Osorio--------
-------Defoe--Dike--Gilberto

It just seems there are more natural roles for our best lineup if we have three up top.

PopePouri
01-01-2014, 07:24 PM
The effectiveness of our DPs gets lost if you put them on the wing. I think we are more suited for a flat 4-4-2 or a 4-1-3-2 with the players we have. He probably need another box-to-box midfielder mid though.

Greatest Ripoff
01-01-2014, 08:19 PM
Didn't Tim Vickery say Gilberto played best as a lone striker in a 4-2-3-1?

OgtheDim
01-01-2014, 08:26 PM
I think the best fit is a 4-1-3-2. But we don't have the creative midfielder to support this yet.


Putting Dike up front is not going to resolve our creativity issues.

Richard
01-01-2014, 08:31 PM
I honestly for once want a team that goes balls to the walls and do something rare such as playing a 3-4-3, im just so bored with the same cookie-cutter formations over and over.

notthesun
01-01-2014, 09:48 PM
Defoe on the wing sounds like a pretty bad idea, and although I haven't seen Gilberto play, having him on the wing sounds no more promising.

If you're talking about finding a formation that best fits our strengths... well, our best strength (assuming Defoe arrives) would have to be our strike force, so playing a formation that throws our two best strikers out wide where they've never played before seems the opposite of a natural fit. Dike as a target forward works in a 4-3-3 but it's not worth playing Defoe and Gilberto out of position.

Honestly a 4-4-2 looks pretty good according to our players. Rey should only ever be on the wing and he can swap wings with Jackson, who himself is most used to playing as a wide midfielder. I hope we're still looking for another CM but in the meantime a tandem of Osorio and Laba in CM is decent. Osorio can push a little further forward than Laba, and he's not a slouch on defense like Silva is, which is why Osorio looked better than Silva did at CM rather than CAM. Laba has shown he can carry the majority of the load defensively in CM.

I've read a lot of comments about whether or not Defoe and Gilberto can work well together in a 4-4-2. That's mostly guesswork at this point. We need to see them play together first. Maybe a 4-4-1-1 would work better, and that's what Nelsen used initially at the start of last year.

I don't think Bez is done adding pieces to this team even if Defoe goes through, and I have a feeling he's got something close to a 4-4-2 in mind for that.

ManUtd4ever
01-01-2014, 10:32 PM
I think a diamond 4-4-2 is conducive to the collective skillset of our projected roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

------------------Laba------------------

Rey-----------------------------Jackson

-----------------Osorio------------------

---------Defoe----------Gilberto--------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, Wiedeman

jloome
01-01-2014, 11:16 PM
The effectiveness of our DPs gets lost if you put them on the wing.

Defoe on the wing sounds like a pretty bad idea, and although I haven't seen Gilberto play, having him on the wing sounds no more promising.


On the wing is pretty relative in a flat 433. If you're playing a short, control game then the team moves as a unit and that includes laterally, so when one outside forward is wide, the other is the guy drifting to the centre or far post. It allows the skill players to get behind the backline and still be in position to score, when the ball is coming in from the other side of the pitch. It also allows Dike to play as a proper target forward and hold up the ball, then feed the two DPs cutting inside.

You don't just play them on the wing or wide, obviously.

I'd also suggest that we had very little decent service to ANY of our two forwards last year. Defoe can create his own but Gilberto looks more a poacher (and a lot of Defoe's goals come from close in, too). We didn't exhibit a lot of ability to bring forwards into play last year, but might be able to with a target forward holding up the ball. And Dike is big and strong.

0bl1vious
01-01-2014, 11:16 PM
Personally, I think we are far too thin in the middle and on the wings to be playing 4-3-3. We simply don't have the players with the required skills.

At the moment 4-4-2 diamond or 4-1-3-2 makes more sense. The team in it's current state seems to look stronger on paper using those formations.

Here's a mock-up, I didn't include some players (ie Bekker because he's just not ready yet). I also didn't really want to include De Rosario because I'm hoping he won't be starting on a regular basis.

4-3-3

http://i.imgur.com/3eWR5yr.jpg

4-1-3-2
http://i.imgur.com/QTImBrh.jpg

prizby
01-01-2014, 11:16 PM
i don't think Nelsen acquires the players he has been acquiring if they don't fit his 'style'; whether these players make/force him to adapt his style to a different formation or such, that is an answer we'll see come pre-season probably

Abou Sky
01-01-2014, 11:23 PM
i don't think Nelsen acquires the players he has been acquiring if they don't fit his 'style'; whether these players make/force him to adapt his style to a different formation or such, that is an answer we'll see come pre-season probably

That said, I don't know that he:

1. Has necessarily found his 'style'
2. Even if he did, maybe he hasn't been playing it and has been playing with what he had.

ag futbol
01-01-2014, 11:53 PM
As of right now, I think 4-2-3-1 makes the most sense.

The way TFC plays the strikers hardly ever combine on anything and we just signed a guy who has been more successful playing up top by himself and supposedly passing isn't his strong suit. This is what worries me about bringing in Defoe. Doesn't sound like there will be much combination play but how can you possibly avoid playing with two up top? Neither fits a midfield role and you can't drop one to the bench.

prizby
01-02-2014, 12:52 AM
As of right now, I think 4-2-3-1 makes the most sense.

The way TFC plays the strikers hardly ever combine on anything and we just signed a guy who has been more successful playing up top by himself and supposedly passing isn't his strong suit. This is what worries me about bringing in Defoe. Doesn't sound like there will be much combination play but how can you possibly avoid playing with two up top? Neither fits a midfield role and you can't drop one to the bench.

it makes the least sense (if Defoe or alike striker comes in); you are not going to sit a DP striker for the sake of a formation

trane
01-02-2014, 08:09 AM
4-3-2-1, with what we seem to have now, the 2-1, pretty tight within the wings, to allow for passing between them.

Canary10
01-02-2014, 09:23 AM
There's not way we are bringing in two DP strikers to play a lone striker formation.

Also Nelsen will never use a 4-4-2 diamond. It concedes the middle of the pitch. He's a guy that doesn't really like adventurous football, and the diamond is pretty much a recklessly attacking formation. Also we still don't have a true AM for it.

We'll likely play a variant of 4-4-2, maybe the odd switch into 4-3-3.

Ultra & Proud
01-02-2014, 09:42 AM
I think a diamond 4-4-2 is conducive to the collective skillset of our projected roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

------------------Laba------------------

Rey-----------------------------Jackson

-----------------Osorio------------------

---------Defoe----------Gilberto--------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, Wiedeman

Me too. I like this set up actually.

Detroit_TFC
01-02-2014, 10:31 AM
Have to think any system used will feature both Defoe and Gilberto. The only question is whether Defoe is behind Gilberto or up front along side him.

Doucet3
01-02-2014, 10:39 AM
Me too. I like this set up actually.
Been preaching this formation (442 diamond) for a while, seems like the strongest without diluting our depth

Canary10
01-02-2014, 10:45 AM
Look at the big hole the diamond creates in the midfield. It's the worst formation in my opinion.

PopePouri
01-02-2014, 10:57 AM
Look at the big hole the diamond creates in the midfield. It's the worst formation in my opinion.

Not really. The "wide" midfielders actually tuck in and play more centrally. We may be able to it with the players we have but we're missing a CAM or two. Osorio would actually be better out wide in a diamond that at CAM.

mowe
01-02-2014, 10:58 AM
I think Nelson will prefer a 4-4-1-1 with Defoe behind Gilardino.

Canary10
01-02-2014, 11:01 AM
Not really. The "wide" midfielders actually tuck in and play more centrally. We may be able to it with the players we have but we're missing a CAM or two. Osorio would actually be better out wide in a diamond that at CAM.

Every time I've ever played with it it does, even with wingers playing in (which raises another problem with it which is lack of width). Also puts a lot on the holding midfielder. One isn't enough cover for the backline. At any rate, I think it's way too adventurous for Nelsen, and I agree we'd at least need an AM to do it. We don't have the players right now.

ManUtd4ever
01-02-2014, 11:10 AM
Based on what I saw of Laba last season, I think he could handle being the lone holding midfielder with the wingers supporting him.

That being said, I agree that Nelsen is likely too conservative to try the diamond formation, which is a shame. I think it could work well with our group.

PopePouri
01-02-2014, 11:16 AM
I wouldn't call it conservative but just preferred formation. Both Manchester City and United play with width and without a legitimate CAM in a 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2.

Canary10
01-02-2014, 11:23 AM
I wouldn't call it conservative but just preferred formation. Both Manchester City and United play with width and without a legitimate CAM in a 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2.

Yeah, but neither play with that exclusively, and in fact use one striker formations more often than not. 4-4-2 is making a bit of a resurgence in the EPL amongst top teams though, with the theory that defences have forgotten how to defend two strikers. The knock on it is 2 central mids often loses the midfield (as most teams play with 3 central mids, so you get overrun). Playing in diamond makes that even worse.

PopePouri
01-02-2014, 11:36 AM
Yeah, but neither play with that exclusively, and in fact use one striker formations more often than not. 4-4-2 is making a bit of a resurgence in the EPL amongst top teams though, with the theory that defences have forgotten how to defend two strikers. The knock on it is 2 central mids often loses the midfield (as most teams play with 3 central mids, so you get overrun). Playing in diamond makes that even worse.

I'd say United has played 4-4-1-1 exclusively with Rooney off the striker. City has mostly used a 4-4-2 this season with Aguero and Negredo as a strike partnership. Even with Aguero out, they partnered Negredo and Dzeko in the last game.

Just looking around at the net for the resurgence of 4-4-2, came across this decent article. Nelsen seems to have played a similar style with 2 DMs and the wide mids tucking in.
http://thinkfootball.co.uk/archives/12364

Canary10
01-02-2014, 11:43 AM
Rooney's played mostly as an AM this year or at best a false nine. It's killed my fantasy points in a number of games. City switches quite a bit but they still play 4-2-3-1 more often than 4-4-2. Yeah they played 4-4-2 the last game, but the one before Dzeko was a lone striker. Even Aguero and Negredo only play together maybe half the games.

Good article.

brad
01-02-2014, 11:44 AM
I think Nelson will prefer a 4-4-1-1 with Defoe behind Gilardino.

Think this is probably correct. Defoe will certainly sit deeper - he has a great outside shot and the pace to exploit from deep.

Of course - I've never seen Gilberto play, and I'm assuming he will be a classic CF

Canary10
01-02-2014, 11:56 AM
Think this is probably correct. Defoe will certainly sit deeper - he has a great outside shot and the pace to exploit from deep.

Of course - I've never seen Gilberto play, and I'm assuming he will be a classic CF

Yeah I'd like to see Defoe playing deeper and having more chance to run at defences. His speed on the ball will be hard to handle for MLS defences that aren't used to it.

tfcocd
01-02-2014, 12:01 PM
I think a diamond 4-4-2 is conducive to the collective skillset of our projected roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

------------------Laba------------------

Rey-----------------------------Jackson

-----------------Osorio------------------

---------Defoe----------Gilberto--------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, Wiedeman


4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

-----------------Defoe----------------

----------------Gilberto----------------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka

this as a starting point seems promising if bez able to successfully find 2 more midfielders and a cb with mls experience or equivalent leading into training camp

ManUtd4ever
01-02-2014, 12:04 PM
4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

-----------------Defoe----------------

----------------Gilberto----------------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka

this as a starting point seems promising if bez able to successfully find 2 more midfielders and a cb with mls experience or equivalent leading into training camp

I would prefer the diamond, but your lineup and formation is most likely what we will see on opening day.

PopePouri
01-02-2014, 12:11 PM
4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

-----------------Defoe----------------

----------------Gilberto----------------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka

this as a starting point seems promising if bez able to successfully find 2 more midfielders and a cb with mls experience or equivalent leading into training camp

I like this.

ag futbol
01-02-2014, 12:13 PM
I'd say United has played 4-4-1-1 exclusively with Rooney off the striker. City has mostly used a 4-4-2 this season with Aguero and Negredo as a strike partnership. Even with Aguero out, they partnered Negredo and Dzeko in the last game.

Just looking around at the net for the resurgence of 4-4-2, came across this decent article. Nelsen seems to have played a similar style with 2 DMs and the wide mids tucking in.
http://thinkfootball.co.uk/archives/12364
It's an interesting article but IMO it doesn't describe the way we play. The first "modern" formation shows a LAM and RAM, as far as TFC goes those players are true wingers. Arguably, the formation is similar to what they describe Athletico's, but any comparisons beyond that really fall apart because we don't attempt to combine play the way they do.

CountryoverClub
01-02-2014, 12:43 PM
4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

-----------------Defoe----------------

----------------Gilberto----------------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka



At this

-our attacking play is looks to be league leading...super subs of dero & dike.
-osorio getting plenty of minutes alongside laba, defoe, gilberto should dramatically speed his development. Could also amplify his flaws
-backline needs to work, but great to see the core stays in place.

still need to add a few more piece, but great lineup as of Jan 2

PopePouri
01-02-2014, 01:00 PM
It's an interesting article but IMO it doesn't describe the way we play. The first "modern" formation shows a LAM and RAM, as far as TFC goes those players are true wingers. Arguably, the formation is similar to what they describe Athletico's, but any comparisons beyond that really fall apart because we don't attempt to combine play the way they do.

Not from what I saw. Even from interviews, Convey was requested to float in behind the forwards or switch flanks and cut in on his left. Rey had a similar role.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/nelsen-convey-of-old-coming-through-for-tfc/



Convey has been turning heads lately with TFC, given licence to switch from one flank to another and float in behind the team’s forwards in a supporting role. Nelsen has been impressed with Convey’s ability to cut into the middle from the right off his left foot and deliver a dangerous cross from the flanks.
"There are actual reasons why we give (Convey) the okay to go underneath the striker and switch over," Nelsen explained. "It’s the freedom to use (his) football brain to realize the times when to do it and judge it (himself)."
It seems to be working. Convey has demonstrated sound judgment and set up both goals in TFC’s win over Columbus.
"It makes it easier when you have a bit more freedom. I try to play within the framework of how our team works and try to get on the ball more to help the team win," Convey said.

Ivy
01-02-2014, 01:02 PM
I don't see Oso starting over DeRo.
I would expect Oso to make frequent appearances at 65+ or start when the squad is depleted.

Detroit_TFC
01-02-2014, 01:21 PM
4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

-----------------Defoe----------------

----------------Gilberto----------------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka

this as a starting point seems promising if bez able to successfully find 2 more midfielders and a cb with mls experience or equivalent leading into training camp

This is an intriguing formation, might be the approach we need. My only concern is having the right kind of depth to fill the Defoe role if he gets injured. DeRo is fine in terms of late game sub but not sure he still has the horses to step in as a starter there if it becomes necessary. Or would Dike be the all purpose FW replacement for either Defoe or Gilberto?

notthesun
01-02-2014, 01:28 PM
I don't see Oso starting over DeRo.
I would expect Oso to make frequent appearances at 65+ or start when the squad is depleted.

I see DeRo as firmly behind Osorio in the depth chart to start the season. That could change as the season goes on if DeRo brings the goods, but I don't see him usurping Osorio to start the year.

Ivy
01-02-2014, 01:44 PM
I see DeRo as firmly behind Osorio in the depth chart to start the season. That could change as the season goes on if DeRo brings the goods, but I don't see him usurping Osorio to start the year.
Maybe you're right. I have no problem with either one of them starting over the other.

trane
01-02-2014, 01:54 PM
There's not way we are bringing in two DP strikers to play a lone striker formation.

Also Nelsen will never use a 4-4-2 diamond. It concedes the middle of the pitch. He's a guy that doesn't really like adventurous football, and the diamond is pretty much a recklessly attacking formation. Also we still don't have a true AM for it.

We'll likely play a variant of 4-4-2, maybe the odd switch into 4-3-3.


Again, ussing numbers alond does not tell you the full story, the diamond, or 4-1-2-1-2 does not have to be reclesley attacking. If played like 4-3-1-2, with the 3 being more or less three MIDS with great defensive responsabilities makes it a reltativelly defensive formation. Milan developed the diamond, and with the 4-3-2-1 it is the Milan default formation if you will, and depending what assignemnt you give the 3 mids it can be more or less offensive/defensive, but in most cases it is a good counterattacking formation, but the wide play comes from the fullbacks, so they need to be up to the task.

Wooster_TFC
01-02-2014, 02:09 PM
I'm actually a little surprised that it was jloome that started this thread, because he's usually pretty good at spotting this stuff, but maybe he didn't catch enough games being out west?

I watch most of the games on TV, being ~an hour drive away from BMO with two little kids doesn't map to getting out to a lot of games. Last year, after about the halfway point (when Rey/Convey/Osorio were starting on the wing), Nelsen lined up as 4-4-2 (sometimes 4-4-1-1) on paper, and defensively. But offense was a completely different story. Most of the time the wide midefielders tucked in, and the fullbacks were expected to be the ones to provide the actual width. Once it was Oso starting in the middle, he also moved up into the hole (with the deeper striker moving up to join the top striker) and the formation looked a lot more like a 4-1-3-2 then a 4-4-2. I suspect this will stay the same this year, if only because Nelsen likes his fullbacks to get forward and provide width, and, defensively speaking, our fullbacks aren't good enough to go up against the leagues best wingers 1 on 1 all game without support.

So, I see something like this:

Without the ball:

4-4-2

-----------------------------Bendik-----------------------------------
Bloom------Caldwell----------Henry-----------------Morrow
Rey------------Laba------------Osorio----------------Jackson
-------------------Defoe--------Gilberto---------------------------

With the ball:

4-1-3-2

-----------------------------Bendik-----------------------------------
Bloom------Caldwell----------Henry-----------------Morrow
----------------------------Laba---------------------------------------
Rey----------------------Osorio------------------------Jackson
-------------------Defoe--------Gilberto---------------------------

We actually have some good coverage and depth right now, just need 1 wide midfielder so that you could move Jackson inside for a better defensive presence against top teams, or to protect a lead. Or, if DeRo brings the goods, you could see him starting out wide with Jackson moving centrally for a bigger defensive presence (and to cover for the loafer :P).

Ivy
01-02-2014, 02:18 PM
Something tells me that Nelsen is trying to copy Mourinho's game that won Inter, and Chelsea the champions league. Sustaining constant attacks by playing a very defensive minded game, and catching the other team napping by switching to very high pressure moments. By allowing the opponent to attack you for 20 minutes, it gives you a window of disorganization when the play switches sides.
You could see flashes of it last season, except there was nobody to score the goals.

Canary10
01-02-2014, 02:21 PM
Again, ussing numbers alond does not tell you the full story, the diamond, or 4-1-2-1-2 does not have to be reclesley attacking. If played like 4-3-1-2, with the 3 being more or less three MIDS with great defensive responsabilities makes it a reltativelly defensive formation. Milan developed the diamond, and with the 4-3-2-1 it is the Milan default formation if you will, and depending what assignemnt you give the 3 mids it can be more or less offensive/defensive, but in most cases it is a good counterattacking formation, but the wide play comes from the fullbacks, so they need to be up to the task.

Thanks for that. My experience with it is mostly playing in it as the one holding mid and I absolutely hate it. I run a lot, but I can't do all the covering on my own, and that's what I find with that formation. Also really tends to stretch the play and leave big gaps in the midfield. Obviously in Italy and on a pro level where there is high positional awareness it would be different, and that variant you mentioned would shore the back up much more. Not sure we have that on TFC, or in fact most MLS teams to play it properly. We certainly don't have the kind of marauding full backs for it. I'm surprised RSL has used it so well given the limitations of positional awareness in MLS.

Yohan
01-02-2014, 02:41 PM
Thanks for that. My experience with it is mostly playing in it as the one holding mid and I absolutely hate it. I run a lot, but I can't do all the covering on my own, and that's what I find with that formation. Also really tends to stretch the play and leave big gaps in the midfield. Obviously in Italy and on a pro level where there is high positional awareness it would be different, and that variant you mentioned would shore the back up much more. Not sure we have that on TFC, or in fact most MLS teams to play it properly. We certainly don't have the kind of marauding full backs for it. I'm surprised RSL has used it so well given the limitations of positional awareness in MLS.
Laba has the engine and the positioning to play lone DM. I'd put him just below Alonso and Beckerman, and those 2 only trumps Laba by experience.

RSL can play the diamond so well, because their midfielders are capable of holding possession. They don't give away ball easily, which allows their fullbacks to make their runs. On other hand, Seattle plays a diamond, but it's not so effective because their midfield isn't as good possessing the ball. (though I suspect funny bounces on that terrible turf has something to do as well).

Technorgasm
01-02-2014, 02:52 PM
Will a 4-4-2 formation see us put at least one more ball into the opposition net then we concede into ours?

Thats all that really matters. . . and I for one am willing to give it a shot!

JonO
01-02-2014, 03:25 PM
I say we go with a 4-4-3. See if anyone notices...

jloome
01-02-2014, 03:56 PM
I'm actually a little surprised that it was jloome that started this thread, because he's usually pretty good at spotting this stuff, but maybe he didn't catch enough games being out west?

I watch most of the games on TV, being ~an hour drive away from BMO with two little kids doesn't map to getting out to a lot of games. Last year, after about the halfway point (when Rey/Convey/Osorio were starting on the wing), Nelsen lined up as 4-4-2 (sometimes 4-4-1-1) on paper, and defensively. But offense was a completely different story. Most of the time the wide midefielders tucked in, and the fullbacks were expected to be the ones to provide the actual width. Once it was Oso starting in the middle, he also moved up into the hole (with the deeper striker moving up to join the top striker) and the formation looked a lot more like a 4-1-3-2 then a 4-4-2. I suspect this will stay the same this year, if only because Nelsen likes his fullbacks to get forward and provide width, and, defensively speaking, our fullbacks aren't good enough to go up against the leagues best wingers 1 on 1 all game without support.

So, I see something like this:

Without the ball:

4-4-2

-----------------------------Bendik-----------------------------------
Bloom------Caldwell----------Henry-----------------Morrow
Rey------------Laba------------Osorio----------------Jackson
-------------------Defoe--------Gilberto---------------------------

With the ball:

4-1-3-2

-----------------------------Bendik-----------------------------------
Bloom------Caldwell----------Henry-----------------Morrow
----------------------------Laba---------------------------------------
Rey----------------------Osorio------------------------Jackson
-------------------Defoe--------Gilberto---------------------------

We actually have some good coverage and depth right now, just need 1 wide midfielder so that you could move Jackson inside for a better defensive presence against top teams, or to protect a lead. Or, if DeRo brings the goods, you could see him starting out wide with Jackson moving centrally for a bigger defensive presence (and to cover for the loafer :P).

I get how he used it. But ask yourself whether switching positional responsibilities every time we back track and having to move into a different channel is the most efficient way of achieving this. Or should they just start in a 433 variant to begin with (which is what the 4132 is) and be positionally consistent.

He also tilted play to one side depending on the strengths of the opposing fullbacks. Again, though, if we're playing a different formation in effect going forward for each opponent based on tactical considerations, we're forcing our players to rely on individually beating their cover man before they can create anything, as opposed to doing so with fluid motion off the ball into space, like Portland or RSL.

Why defend in a 442 but attack in a 4132? For a league as tactically deficient as MLS, it seems like that's setting players up to blow coverage. It's like his decision to zonally mark on corners. It just doesn't make sense at this level of football to me and it always ends up with someone blowing coverage because they're not sure who they should track.

[NBF]
01-02-2014, 04:51 PM
Again, ussing numbers alond does not tell you the full story, the diamond, or 4-1-2-1-2 does not have to be reclesley attacking. If played like 4-3-1-2, with the 3 being more or less three MIDS with great defensive responsabilities makes it a reltativelly defensive formation. Milan developed the diamond, and with the 4-3-2-1 it is the Milan default formation if you will, and depending what assignemnt you give the 3 mids it can be more or less offensive/defensive, but in most cases it is a good counterattacking formation, but the wide play comes from the fullbacks, so they need to be up to the task.

Thats something you would expect from an experienced team and seasoned manager. Thats not something that can be taught to a team that has only one central midfielder.

Now, for the shits and giggles. I'm going to say a 3-4-3 similar to Bologna with DiVaio and Milito that would be fantastic, but again thats something you would expect from a group of players that are more seasoned and better football brains.

3-4-3:


----------------------Bendik--------------------
---------------------Konopka-------------------
------------------------------------------------
----------Caldwell-----Henry-----Agboss--------
----------Eckersley----Bloom-----Morgan--------
------------------------------------------------
Jackson-------Laba-----------Hall--------Morrow
Richter-------Osorio----------Bekker-------Elmer
------------------------------------------------
----------------------Gilberto-------------------
-----------------------Dike---------------------
------------Rey---------||------DeRosario------
-----------Lambe--------V------Wiedeman------

pdubs
01-02-2014, 09:38 PM
would certainly confuse teams for a bit if we went 3-4-3 lol. might confuse ourselves even more to aha

Yohan
01-02-2014, 09:45 PM
would certainly confuse teams for a bit if we went 3-4-3 lol. might confuse ourselves even more to aha
I remember Winter playing with 3-4-3 for a while. it was pretty epic fail

trane
01-03-2014, 04:43 AM
I say we go with a 4-4-3. See if anyone notices...

You could do it if you choose to opt for an extra forward instead of a keeper.

Greatest Ripoff
01-03-2014, 08:03 AM
I remember Winter playing with 3-4-3 for a while. it was pretty epic fail

First game as a 3-4-3 was a shock win against RSL

Wooster_TFC
01-03-2014, 11:55 AM
I get how he used it. But ask yourself whether switching positional responsibilities every time we back track and having to move into a different channel is the most efficient way of achieving this. Or should they just start in a 433 variant to begin with (which is what the 4132 is) and be positionally consistent.

He also tilted play to one side depending on the strengths of the opposing fullbacks. Again, though, if we're playing a different formation in effect going forward for each opponent based on tactical considerations, we're forcing our players to rely on individually beating their cover man before they can create anything, as opposed to doing so with fluid motion off the ball into space, like Portland or RSL.

Why defend in a 442 but attack in a 4132? For a league as tactically deficient as MLS, it seems like that's setting players up to blow coverage. It's like his decision to zonally mark on corners. It just doesn't make sense at this level of football to me and it always ends up with someone blowing coverage because they're not sure who they should track.

You could definitely see times where coverage was blown. You could also see times where Laba was forcing opposition players into an area of the field that he was supposed to, just to have another player (usually a fullback or Hall) not pick them up like they were supposed to.

I think that if you get guys with a decent football sense, rather than the super-athletes that typify MLS teams, then you could do it, but it's not easy. I can see us getting that with Laba, Caldwell, and Rey near the end of last season. I think guys like Henry, Morgan, and Osorio can pick it up (they have a decent amount of smarts when it comes to football, they just need to be taught). For whatever reason Nelsen seems to favour more of a zonal type defense, with people pushing the opposition into certain areas. That said, with the new folks we are picking up, I could see us lining up in any sort of formation, depending on the team we're playing and who's hot and who's not.

Regardless of what you pick from a formation, you need at least 8 guys defending in MLS. The fullbacks (usually) just aren't good enough to do it otherwise. Haven't seen Portland play a lot, so I can't comment on their play, but both RSL and KC play some variations on 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1, and 4-3-3 (the last 3 are almost the same, but whatever). Regardless of what they are playing though, the wingers are ALWAYS expected to track back and defend. You're asking for trouble if you play a "real" 4-3-3 like Winter did, because the defense simply just ain't good enough :).

Wooster_TFC
01-03-2014, 11:56 AM
First game as a 3-4-3 was a shock win against RSL

Yes. But then he kept using it and it got exploited. It also heavily depended on Frings, who was slow as molasses.

ag futbol
01-03-2014, 12:38 PM
Yes. But then he kept using it and it got exploited. It also heavily depended on Frings, who was slow as molasses.
Terry Dunfield and Torsten Frings, perhaps the slowest and most ineffective central midfield combination in the history of MLS. Played out so badly it was laughable.

I'm not sure who dreamed that one up, but it showed a shocking lack of understanding of how this league works. If you can't cover ground in the middle of the park, you won't be winning anything.

Wooster_TFC
01-03-2014, 12:42 PM
Terry Dunfield and Torsten Frings, perhaps the slowest and most ineffective central midfield combination in the history of MLS. Played out so badly it was laughable.

I'm not sure who dreamed that one up, but it showed a shocking lack of understanding of how this league works. If you can't cover ground in the middle of the park, you won't be winning anything.

Frings didn't play CM in our 3-4-3, he played Sweeper.

Dreadlocks
01-03-2014, 01:40 PM
The only reason Winter went with a 3-4-3 is because the two natural central defenders were constantly being pressured by two attacking players causing turnovers. Frings in the middle was like a rover of sorts and would be able to assist where he felt it was needed. This failed because our wide players did not come back to defend the long diagonal balls over the top (the way you beat a 3 defender system) effectively enough. That and it also left us short in the midfield with essentially only 2 players - one of which was Terry dunfield.

trane
01-07-2014, 03:27 PM
An effective 3-4-3 should look like a 5-4-1 when defending and can look like a 3-2-5 when they are putting maximum attacking pressure.