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MartinUtd
11-29-2013, 02:49 PM
There's good conversation taking place in the wrong thread about the sentiment that TFC has left the Italian community behind.

From what I gather the reasons are rooted in the youth set up.. something about TFCA not working with established local youth clubs, poaching young players and basically shitting where they eat. I'm not privvy to the details, this is just what I've picked from places like here and the blogosphere.

If true, those are certainly good reasons to be angry at the club but what I don't get is how signing a big name Italian DP is supposed to make up for that? Furthermore I'm seeing the narrative that TFC has soley been marketed to the UK crowed. As an expat, I don't see it, but perhaps that is part of my bias. Am I to believe that Dichio, Robinson (a Welshman), Ricketts and Iro were used as a marketing tool to pull me in. Or was that the MoJo and Carver thing? Either way, they've done a shit job of marketing to me as an Englishman. You could probably argue that TFC has done as much to please the Guyanese community.

So... have at it

ArmenJBX
11-29-2013, 03:24 PM
I think Toronto FC is somewhat hampered in its identity the way Chivas USA is.

Toronto went full-on Canadian and embraced the maple leaf but when the question of "what makes one Canadian?" comes up, especially in Toronto, it becomes an issue of representation.

Essentially, Toronto FC spent a whole lot of energy into creating this identity that we are the club for the Canadian people. We are Canada's club. We represent the people of Toronto. This is something pretty unique to Toronto FC; you don't see Seattle or Columbus or New England saying "We represent the people of X city," the way Toronto FC did.

So, that's what this boils down to - what makes a Torontonian a Torontonian? For a large part of the Italian community, and the Portuguese community, and the Greek community, living in Toronto means embracing their culture. So, when a club is issuing this "All for one" brand but supplying the city with coaches, managers and icons from fringe segments of the population or from the U.K. (De Rosario, De Guzman, Ricketts, etc), there's a "well, when do I get a player?" thing going on.

Which, for the most part, is fair; I'd love to see an Armenian player at Toronto FC. If Toronto FC manages to sign a player like Yura Movsisyan, I'll be the first in line for a shirt (spelled correctly, I'd hope!) But that's me. For the Italian community, especially on the advent of Gilardino news and the hyping of the Roma game, combined with what's happened in Montreal, there's a sense that Toronto FC doesn't necessarily care about them. Which isn't true, not one bit. I don't think the club actively goes against signing certain players. In fact, I think it speaks a lot about the quality of Italian footballers in that they don't easily make moves away from Serie A or Serie B. However, a history of managers associated in the British leagues (and, thus, having plenty of contacts in those leagues and with their teams) gave Toronto FC this image of signing UK players first and foremost; it's why guys like John Bostock and Hogan Ephraim and Robert Earnshaw joined over the last offseason and not players from Serie B.

This Gilardino - Defoe situation has evolved into such that it looks like Toronto FC is going to be buying one and not the other. So, again, in the Italian community's eyes, it's England vs. Italy, and Italy is set to lose out once again to an English player, who many believe isn't even better than Gilardino in the first place.

In an ideal world, TFC is a mix of every major ethnicity but that's not how football works. I've always subscribed to the idea that your passport shouldn't determine your spot on the roster, to a certain extent (in that local and international players must be given considerations). However, if the club is brandying about this image of representing the city, then large, vocal parts of the city that go underrepresented will say something about that.

But if you field me a team of 11 winners from San Marino vs. 11 last-place finishers from Brazil, I know which team I'll pick every time.

tfcleeds
11-29-2013, 03:34 PM
Glad this topic has been picked up elsewhere, because I think it's an interesting one. OK, so what I don't get is this. If the Italian community in the GTA, by and large, doesn't care for TFC because of perceived or real slights relating to the club's community outreach (read: youth football), suddenly TFC signing a big-name Italian player is supposed to make it all better? I don't get that. My contention is, either you support this club for what it is, or you don't. It should have nothing to do with the various ethnic rivalries that have served to undermine Toronto soccer clubs in the past.

Yohan
11-29-2013, 03:44 PM
It's not just TFC that has a British centric bent when it comes to signing players from Europe. Other teams do it too, and I think it is because English makes it easier for players to adapt to the league. And a lot of coaches have British background, who played in North America, probably because easier to get a job when you can speak English. And their influence still remains in MLS. (Kinnear, Nicol, Mariner, even Preki)

I don't think MLS has a bias against non English speaking players from Europe, but until recently, it's been pretty hard to attract those players, the Spanish or Italians, or French, with few exceptions.

Central America and South American players are totally different dynamic.

ArmenJBX
11-29-2013, 03:47 PM
Glad this topic has been picked up elsewhere, because I think it's an interesting one. OK, so what I don't get is this. If the Italian community in the GTA, by and large, doesn't care for TFC because of perceived or real slights relating to the club's community outreach (read: youth football), suddenly TFC signing a big-name Italian player is supposed to make it all better? I don't get that. My contention is, either you support this club for what it is, or you don't. It should have nothing to do with the various ethnic rivalries that have served to undermine Toronto soccer clubs in the past.

I think what it comes down to is that the Italian football fans were never given a chance to become Toronto FC fans.

There hasn't been a huge TFC presence at Italian hang out joints/eateries the way there has been in British pubs and dives. There hasn't been Italian icons the way there has been Scottish (Mo), Welsh (Earnshaw/Robinson), Irish (O'Dea) or English (any number of young burnout prodigies like Ephraim, Ricketts) ones. Toronto FC doesn't make the Italian papers - when Gilardino came up, one Italian news outlet thought we were Torino because they don't know Toronto.

That relationship hasn't been cultivated in the same way. I'd argue the same can be said for the Greek community.

That's not to say Italians don't watch Toronto FC; however, they feel it's not their team. The comparisons to Liverpool in year one, and Saputo signing Nesta and Di Vaio did two things; it established the idea that, wait a second, Italian internationals can and will sign for MLS teams, which means Toronto FC isn't incapable of signing them, which means Toronto FC has neglected to sign them.

Your argument that you support the club for what it is is a fair one. But, give them Gilardino, and you create at least 5000 lifelong fans who will stick around after he's gone. But you can't tell someone to like something without giving them a reason to try it first. You have to cater to your customer, to a certain extent, and get them in the door first. The Roma game proved that this city will come out in droves to watch what it likes. For a large part of the city, what it likes is Italian footballers. It's up to Toronto to get them through the door, and then keep them there with its own performances. Chalking it up to "take it or leave it" is admitting that Toronto FC in its current shape is not good enough to keep the attention of the average Italian football fan who doesn't necessarily follow the team.

TOBOR !
11-29-2013, 03:49 PM
The idea behind multiculturalism is that people from many different backgrounds come together to form one community. Instead, what happens is people from these different backgrounds form pockets of their own nationalities, creating unique areas in town where you can go to visit another culture. This is great, but it's not multiculturalism.

This creates a problem for TFC. They can't please everyone (or anyone) by focusing on any one nationality. I think they'd be further ahead if they tried to build locally, or at least through second gen canadians (at least at the academy level).

MKR
11-29-2013, 03:53 PM
What about Andrea Lombardo?!

(i'm kind of kidding btw).

pekduck
11-29-2013, 03:54 PM
The idea behind multiculturalism is that people from many different backgrounds come together to form one community. Instead, what happens is people from these different backgrounds form pockets of their own nationalities, creating unique areas in town where you can go to visit another culture. This is great, but it's not multiculturalism.

This creates a problem for TFC. They can't please everyone (or anyone) by focusing on any one nationality. I think they'd be further ahead if they tried to build locally, or at least through second gen canadians (at least at the academy level).

This.

Also, IMHO, club should take care of building a solid team first regardless of where the player is from. When we can have more W than L season in and season out, then they can branch out and crank up the marketing machine and cater to different prospective ethnicity. It's just business, see the divisive nature of the way things are, and make most money out of it. Just need to make sure the order of execution is there.

McBrace
11-29-2013, 03:58 PM
The Italians weren't given a chance? I'm confused..I thought when this club started it was for everyone to watch a LOCAL professional.... I thought the whole "All for One" was as clear as day... Guess not..

ArmenJBX
11-29-2013, 04:06 PM
The Italians weren't given a chance? I'm confused..I thought when this club started it was for everyone to watch a LOCAL professional.... I thought the whole "All for One" was as clear as day... Guess not..

Intentions and practices rarely mix in business, it seems.

TFC went full on with the British flavouring right off the top with Andy Welsh, Carl Robinson, Danny Dichio, Ronnie O'Brien, then kept it going by signing Rohan Ricketts, Andy Iro, Reggie Lambe, Richard Eckersley, Darren O'Dea, Robert Earnshaw, Taylor Morgan, Darel Russell, Hogan Ephraim, John Bostock and Steven Caldwell, without every signing an Italian player in between. Not one. The closest was Gianluca Zavarise.

All For One it may be but it hasn't reflected that in the acquisition sheets. It's mostly Canadian, American and British.

tfcleeds
11-29-2013, 04:08 PM
I think what it comes down to is that the Italian football fans were never given a chance to become Toronto FC fans. There hasn't been a huge TFC presence at Italian hang out joints/eateries the way there has been in British pubs and dives. There hasn't been Italian icons the way there has been Scottish (Mo), Welsh (Earnshaw/Robinson), Irish (O'Dea) or English (any number of young burnout prodigies like Ephraim, Ricketts) ones. Toronto FC doesn't make the Italian papers - when Gilardino came up, one Italian news outlet thought we were Torino because they don't know Toronto. That relationship hasn't been cultivated in the same way. I'd argue the same can be said for the Greek community. That's not to say Italians don't watch Toronto FC; however, they feel it's not their team. The comparisons to Liverpool in year one, and Saputo signing Nesta and Di Vaio did two things; it established the idea that, wait a second, Italian internationals can and will sign for MLS teams, which means Toronto FC isn't incapable of signing them, which means Toronto FC has neglected to sign them. Your argument that you support the club for what it is is a fair one. But, give them Gilardino, and you create at least 5000 lifelong fans who will stick around after he's gone. But you can't tell someone to like something without giving them a reason to try it first. You have to cater to your customer, to a certain extent, and get them in the door first. The Roma game proved that this city will come out in droves to watch what it likes. For a large part of the city, what it likes is Italian footballers. It's up to Toronto to get them through the door, and then keep them there with its own performances. Chalking it up to "take it or leave it" is admitting that Toronto FC in its current shape is not good enough to keep the attention of the average Italian football fan who doesn't necessarily follow the team.Good post, and you make a lot of interesting points. I've always felt it was a shame that Toronto FC didn't seem to resonate with the 500,000+ people of Italian descent in the GTA - it represents a huge market to be tapped. But the idea of pandering to certain communities, be it Italian, Greek, Portuguese, British, Caribbean, whatever - just doesn't sit well with me somehow. You don't see it in other sports, and I just think it's a shame it always seems to have to be the case here with soccer. Back in 2007, Toronto FC was supposed to represent a new beginning, a club that all soccer fans in the GTA could rally around, and leave all the -Italia, -Croatia, -Sporting suffixes in the past. Just a shame that people see TFC as being a "British" club where I really don't see that at all. Sure, we've brought in a lot of British players - most of them have been utter shite! If that's "catering"....well...

MartinUtd
11-29-2013, 04:11 PM
So, that's what this boils down to - what makes a Torontonian a Torontonian? For a large part of the Italian community, and the Portuguese community, and the Greek community, living in Toronto means embracing their culture. So, when a club is issuing this "All for one" brand but supplying the city with coaches, managers and icons from fringe segments of the population or from the U.K. (De Rosario, De Guzman, Ricketts, etc), there's a "well, when do I get a player?" thing going on.

I want to watch TFC to see Mo Johnson manage a team, said no one ever.

Seriously though, icons? I think you're giving too much credit to the past. I see on your list two Canadians and a below average squad player who happens to be English. Granted they're not Italian, but if this their attempt to appeal to me then they've missed the mark. So far I've seen TFC try to be "Canada's Team" which like you said, is difficult given national identity (or lack thereof). In the end, I think "take it or leave it" is the exact mantra we should offer to anyone who puts ethnic division above simply having a local football team.

zeelaw
11-29-2013, 04:14 PM
VooDoo I posted your quote and my response here. Cheers

TFC doesn't need to pay attention to Italian footballing. They need to pay attention to world football. They need to understand that there are lots of ways to improve. Pick one, stick with it and move on.

As for the UK mentality...it's been at TFC since day one and Canadian soccer forever.

I know people don't agree but TFC was built, on and off the field, to cater to those who follow UK football.

And I was very happy when they went with the "Dutch" school of thought. They could have gone with any school of thought that has produced success to be honest. It could have been Dutch, German, Italian, Mexican, argentine etc.

And when they did that they HAD to add mariner. And when the waters got rough what did they do? Right back to the good old UK mentality.

And then we move to Nelsen. And you think he's an American influence because Payne had him at dc over a decade ago? Where was he after that?

Like I said...it is what it is. But to deny what is right before our eyes is nuts.

So what if they focused on French football philosophy, would you still be upset it wasn't Italian football mentality?

Can you please explain how TFC has shown examples of using the UK football mentality? The only one I would say was signing John Carver. I might be wrong but a significant majority of "UK mentality" all had very good MLS experience, front office and on the field.

I don't get why catering to an Italian demographic as opposed to the city of Toronto should be a concern to Toronto FC.

zeelaw
11-29-2013, 04:16 PM
There hasn't been Italian icons the way there has been Scottish (Mo), Welsh (Earnshaw/Robinson), Irish (O'Dea) or English (any number of young burnout prodigies like Ephraim, Ricketts) ones.
Do you think I supported TFC because there is a previous Celtic/Rangers player managing, lower league premier league players and "young burnout prodigies playing"? How is that an attraction to British fans?

v00d00daddy
11-29-2013, 04:17 PM
Speaking as an Canadian first, Italian second, and only speaking for myself I'll say this:

It's not about having Italian players for me. It's about a footballing culture. A way of thinking and approaching the game.

When TFC was announced I was ecstatic. I was one of the first to buy seasons tickets. That being said, I had concerns. I voiced them too. If we can go back to look at the old boards you'll see this conversation way back when.

I never understood why they chose to build the team the way they did. I can understand wanting to pick a particular model and running with it. But why the UK model?

More importantly…..when they figured out that what they were doing wasn't working….and made the decision to implement a more forward thinking, contemporary philosophy, why did they scrap it because of one coach?

Why did they have to give Winter Paul Mariner?

Why, when they decided to fire Winter, did they revert back to the old way of thinking?

Why have they again gone to the UK for their coach?

As for Defoe…..in response to someone in the other thread….yes they're pursuing him because he's a great footballer. But they're also pursuing him because of where he plays his club football, where he was born and the country he represents on the national level.

Same goes for Gilardino.

The problem is that TFC has catered only one demographic in this city but continues to tell us that it's "All for one".

zeelaw
11-29-2013, 04:17 PM
There's good conversation taking place in the wrong thread about the sentiment that TFC has left the Italian community behind.

From what I gather the reasons are rooted in the youth set up.. something about TFCA not working with established local youth clubs, poaching young players and basically shitting where they eat. I'm not privvy to the details, this is just what I've picked from places like here and the blogosphere.

This is the only legitimate bone to pick I've read so far and the Italian community is right to be pissed about that.

v00d00daddy
11-29-2013, 04:19 PM
Good post, and you make a lot of interesting points. I've always felt it was a shame that Toronto FC didn't seem to resonate with the 500,000+ people of Italian descent in the GTA - it represents a huge market to be tapped. But the idea of pandering to certain communities, be it Italian, Greek, Portuguese, British, Caribbean, whatever - just doesn't sit well with me somehow. You don't see it in other sports, and I just think it's a shame it always seems to have to be the case here with soccer. Back in 2007, Toronto FC was supposed to represent a new beginning, a club that all soccer fans in the GTA could rally around, and leave all the -Italia, -Croatia, -Sporting suffixes in the past. Just a shame that people see TFC as being a "British" club where I really don't see that at all. Sure, we've brought in a lot of British players - most of them have been utter shite! If that's "catering"....well...

Totally agree. Now tell me why they pandered to the UK based footballing culture and supporter?

zeelaw
11-29-2013, 04:19 PM
Totally agree. Now tell me why they pandered to the UK based footballing culture and supporter?
VooDoo, you haven't explained how they have yet! I'm not trying to be an ass but I am curious!

Damien
11-29-2013, 04:20 PM
What about Andrea Lombardo?!

(i'm kind of kidding btw).

^ This! We gave them Italianos their chance and they blew it!

ag futbol
11-29-2013, 04:23 PM
I'd argue this is really more about connecting with people locally and less about ethnicity. TFC, and I think MLS deserves a lot of blame for this too, have never handled this market properly.

The structure for Canadian Clubs within MLS remains piss-poor IMO and is an issue that will have to be dealt with in the future.

ArmenJBX
11-29-2013, 04:24 PM
Do you think I supported TFC because there is a previous Celtic/Rangers player managing, lower league premier league players and "young burnout prodigies playing"? How is that an attraction to British fans?

No, not suggesting that at all. It's why there's still a huge faction of English footy fans that don't care for Toronto FC.

Again, I'm not of the camp that says "we need to have Italian players" - passport isn't important, results are. But, I can see why the Italian side of the city hasn't embraced the city; there has been no reason for them to. For some reason, Toronto FC quickly picked up a reputation for being a Brit-friendly team and kept it throughout. I'm not saying Mo Johnston was the reason why people came to see TFC, but Mo's connections formed the team, and those connections were mostly British, which perpetuated this idea.

It also comes down to playing style; TFC has always played poorly. In England's lower divisions, loyalty to a team comes first, performance second. It's why eternally terrible teams have support. In Italy, there's a stress on tactically beautiful football. Toronto hasn't had that consistently.

McBrace
11-29-2013, 04:26 PM
Intentions and practices rarely mix in business, it seems.

TFC went full on with the British flavouring right off the top with Andy Welsh, Carl Robinson, Danny Dichio, Ronnie O'Brien, then kept it going by signing Rohan Ricketts, Andy Iro, Reggie Lambe, Richard Eckersley, Darren O'Dea, Robert Earnshaw, Taylor Morgan, Darel Russell, Hogan Ephraim, John Bostock and Steven Caldwell, without every signing an Italian player in between. Not one. The closest was Gianluca Zavarise.

All For One it may be but it hasn't reflected that in the acquisition sheets. It's mostly Canadian, American and British.


Coming from A Portuguese background, I never once felt entitled to having a Portuguese player. I also assumed that because having a Scottish GM/Coach at the time was the reason for having a lot of Brits, likely due to their connections. Lets face it, players from around the world aren't exactly knocking at our door begging to play here. Dichio, Alen Stevanović, Lambardo all have Italian connections, I guess this isn't enough...

I believe the "All for One" was meant all communities support one team, not all communities represented on the pitch...

Yohan
11-29-2013, 04:26 PM
Speaking as an Canadian first, Italian second, and only speaking for myself I'll say this:

It's not about having Italian players for me. It's about a footballing culture. A way of thinking and approaching the game.

When TFC was announced I was ecstatic. I was one of the first to buy seasons tickets. That being said, I had concerns. I voiced them too. If we can go back to look at the old boards you'll see this conversation way back when.

I never understood why they chose to build the team the way they did. I can understand wanting to pick a particular model and running with it. But why the UK model?

More importantly…..when they figured out that what they were doing wasn't working….and made the decision to implement a more forward thinking, contemporary philosophy, why did they scrap it because of one coach?

Why did they have to give Winter Paul Mariner?

Why, when they decided to fire Winter, did they revert back to the old way of thinking?

Why have they again gone to the UK for their coach?

As for Defoe…..in response to someone in the other thread….yes they're pursuing him because he's a great footballer. But they're also pursuing him because of where he plays his club football, where he was born and the country he represents on the national level.

Same goes for Gilardino.

The problem is that TFC has catered only one demographic in this city but continues to tell us that it's "All for one".
you can so believe the UK bias all you want, but it's not just Toronto that likes hiring English speaking players. most MLS teams do it, and did it esp back in 07. (DC United was only team that heavily emphasized Latino flavour, but even then it was limited) Especially in MLS coaching world.

And you tend to hire people that you know, or familiar with. I don't know who else was available for TFC job in 07, (though Bob Gansler was more than qualified as MLS head coach) but by looking at MLS in 2007, it was likely that someone who had experience with MLS with British flavour was going to be picked as head coach. Only in recent years, you see more 'distinct' team philosophies, since the introduction of Seattle and MLS 2.0.

And still the only manager to win the MLS Cup is Gary Smith, an Englishman. (meaning, only coach without prior MLS experience)

ArmenJBX
11-29-2013, 04:27 PM
I don't think we should keep score of ethnicities; we've had so many, Dutch, German, Bermudan, Argentine, Nigerian. It's not really a contest. But, doesn't the fact that there hasn't been one Italian footballer in a city with half a million Italians and a deep history of Italian settlers feel a bit strange?

zeelaw
11-29-2013, 04:27 PM
Again, I'm not of the camp that says "we need to have Italian players" - passport isn't important, results are. But, I can see why the Italian side of the city hasn't embraced the city; there has been no reason for them to. For some reason, Toronto FC quickly picked up a reputation for being a Brit-friendly team and kept it throughout. I'm not saying Mo Johnston was the reason why people came to see TFC, but Mo's connections formed the team, and those connections were mostly British, which perpetuated this idea.

It also comes down to playing style; TFC has always played poorly. In England's lower divisions, loyalty to a team comes first, performance second. It's why eternally terrible teams have support. In Italy, there's a stress on tactically beautiful football. Toronto hasn't had that consistently.
I agree 100% about the different cultural elements of these communities and how they support. But I do have a hard time saying Catenaccio is beautiful football.

ArmenJBX
11-29-2013, 04:29 PM
I agree 100% about the different cultural elements of these communities and how they support. But I do have a hard time saying Catenaccio is beautiful football.

Tactically* beautiful.

An emphasis on formation, movement, match ups and passing. It has a beauty, you can't deny that!

A shield can shine as bright as a sword when treated with care.

trane
11-29-2013, 04:30 PM
^ This! We gave them Italianos their chance and they blew it!


Almost everyone that we tried at this club, has blown it so far.

Canary10
11-29-2013, 04:31 PM
The idea behind multiculturalism is that people from many different backgrounds come together to form one community. Instead, what happens is people from these different backgrounds form pockets of their own nationalities, creating unique areas in town where you can go to visit another culture. This is great, but it's not multiculturalism.

This creates a problem for TFC. They can't please everyone (or anyone) by focusing on any one nationality. I think they'd be further ahead if they tried to build locally, or at least through second gen canadians (at least at the academy level).

That's one idea of multiculturalism but not the only one. Americans call the version you describe as the melting pot. The mosaic is one we tend to have in Canada. Neither is wrong or right, although I prefer our version. It's harder, but makes for a more interesting and varied society in my opinion. I'm not a fan of monoculture.

zeelaw
11-29-2013, 04:31 PM
Tactically* beautiful.

An emphasis on formation, movement, match ups and passing. It has a beauty, you can't deny that!

A shield can shine as bright as a sword when treated with care.
Oh shit yes sorry, you are right about that. From a tactical coaching viewpoint it is beautiful.

Yohan
11-29-2013, 04:33 PM
I don't think we should keep score of ethnicities; we've had so many, Dutch, German, Bermudan, Argentine, Nigerian. It's not really a contest. But, doesn't the fact that there hasn't been one Italian footballer in a city with half a million Italians and a deep history of Italian settlers feel a bit strange?
no it doesn't. there were few in early years of MLS, but until 2012, there were no other Italians in MLS. probably meaning it was hard to attract Italian players in MLS, and even now, there are only 2 players (Cudicini in LA, who is likely getting punted, and Tornaghi who got released from Chicago) outside of Montreal. unless one is going to argue everyone in MLS is racist against Italians lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_MLS_players

trane
11-29-2013, 04:34 PM
I don't think we should keep score of ethnicities; we've had so many, Dutch, German, Bermudan, Argentine, Nigerian. It's not really a contest. But, doesn't the fact that there hasn't been one Italian footballer in a city with half a million Italians and a deep history of Italian settlers feel a bit strange?

That is it.

It may not have been done on purpose, but it makes us feel excluded. And that may not be a big deal, but do not get pissed when we tell you we feel excluded, you did nothing to make us feel included.

Yohan
11-29-2013, 04:35 PM
That is it.

It may not have been done on purpose, but it makes us feel excluded. And that may not be a big deal, but do not get pissed when we tell you we feel excluded, you did nothing to make us feel included.
dammit TFC, you failed to sign single Korean player. I feel excluded.

trane
11-29-2013, 04:36 PM
no it doesn't. there were few in early years of MLS, but until 2012, there were no other Italians in MLS. probably meaning it was hard to attract Italian players in MLS, and even now, there are only 2 players (Cudicini in LA, who is likely getting punted, and Tornaghi who got released from Chicago) outside of Montreal. unless one is going to argue everyone in MLS is racist against Italians lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_MLS_players

We are not other cities, and our Italian immigration is much more recent, and much more devoted to the sport.

trane
11-29-2013, 04:38 PM
dammit TFC, you failed to sign single Korean player. I feel excluded.


Wow, you are really deep.

ag futbol
11-29-2013, 04:38 PM
dammit TFC, you failed to sign single Korean player. I feel excluded.
If we were successful I don't think anybody would care. But the thing is results go downhill and people start to prognosticate.

People just say "these guys are bums, people in my country can play better football, why don't you give them a shot?"

ArmenJBX
11-29-2013, 04:39 PM
That is it.

It may not have been done on purpose, but it makes us feel excluded. And that may not be a big deal, but do not get pissed when we tell you we feel excluded, you did nothing to make us feel included.

When I write articles, I always try to substantiate my arguments with solid evidence.

This is a gut thing.

It may not be historically precedented to sign Italian players; it may not be beneficial to Toronto FC to do so based on high price points. But it feels off.

When Italy won the World Cup in 2006, the city was painted Azzurri blue. In a way, Toronto as a city not having an Italian footballer is like Chivas USA not having a Mexican footballer. It doesn't feel right for some reason. Italians are not just a part of Toronto's history; they're a part of Toronto's soccer history. That hasn't been acknowledged by the team, it seems.

ArmenJBX
11-29-2013, 04:42 PM
Plus, imagine Ryan Nelsen in a light blue track suit yelling "Pass to the Italians!!"

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/348/186/2005_kicking_and_screaming_022_display_image.jpg

Section 117
11-29-2013, 04:44 PM
The issues as I see it, is the soccer culture in the country is UK based.

They started this team and gave the keys to Mo (Scottish) he signed mostly uk trained and based players supplemented with shit Canadian players. We went through 4 years of that crap. Then we try to think out of the box and go with a Dutch philosophy and that got scrapped for many reasons and we went back to the uk based players and mentality.

the problem is that soccer is the biggest sport in the world and they continue to look at the same country for players and the majority of them are severely overrated. TFC has not attempted to sign significant players from elsewhere (Laba being the exception).

I hate it when I see Montreal sign players who we had access to but didn't even return his call or other players from Europe who weren't uk based who would have made an impact and the team won't return calls or dismiss them. I hear this all the time from people how they blown off players. It is truly unprofessional, I hope it changes and they sign the best players available regardless of where they are from

trane
11-29-2013, 04:49 PM
Plus, imagine Ryan Nelsen in a light blue track suit yelling "Pass to the Italians!!"

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/348/186/2005_kicking_and_screaming_022_display_image.jpg

That is funny. It is a gut thing, but every time we talk about it, I grow a little less attached to TFC, due to the general reaction, which kind of confirms my thoughts.

Yohan
11-29-2013, 04:50 PM
We are not other cities, and our Italian immigration is much more recent, and much more devoted to the sport.
I think every football loving immigrant population would say they are just as devoted to the game just as much as the Italians. for them, soccer is their number 1 sport too. You're going to have to come up with a better argument to why TFC should cater more to Italians. Being an Italian isn't going to entitle you to special treatment in soccer world in Toronto.

tfcleeds
11-29-2013, 04:52 PM
That is it. It may not have been done on purpose, but it makes us feel excluded. And that may not be a big deal, but do not get pissed when we tell you we feel excluded, you did nothing to make us feel included.OK - but then why don't other communities with a strong presence in this city feel the same way? I don't see the Portuguese or Greek communities feeling hard done by because TFC haven't fielded many (if any) players from those nations. They may well feel that way - but even if they do, they seem to be much less vocal about it. As you know well as much as anyone, Italian players at the top level rarely travel outside Serie A - I can only think of a few (Miccoli, and of course, Vialli and Di Matteo when they were with Chelsea, but even Vialli was at the very end of his career, along with Del Piero at Sydney). No such players came to MLS before Saputo brought the likes of Di Vaio and Nesta in. So I guess I'm asking, what Italian player would have been suitable enough for the Italian population of the GTA if so relatively few of them ply their trade on foreign shores to begin with?

Voodooman
11-29-2013, 05:05 PM
I think every football loving immigrant population would say they are just as devoted to the game just as much as the Italians. for them, soccer is their number 1 sport too. You're going to have to come up with a better argument to why TFC should cater more to Italians. Being an Italian isn't going to entitle you to special treatment in soccer world in Toronto.

+1, agreed. There are established Polish and Croatian soccer communities in Toronto as well, can't really say one is more devoted than another.

trane
11-29-2013, 05:13 PM
I think every football loving immigrant population would say they are just as devoted to the game just as much as the Italians. for them, soccer is their number 1 sport too. You're going to have to come up with a better argument to why TFC should cater more to Italians. Being an Italian isn't going to entitle you to special treatment in soccer world in Toronto.

What the hell are you talking about?????? I am really not interested in what you have to say on this, because you clearly have no clue what the hell I am talking about. Nobody is asking anyone to cater to anybody. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FACTS. TFC is not an attractive team to the Italian community. End off. You are getting offended from this. We do not need special treatment from anyone. But do not expect our support.

trane
11-29-2013, 05:18 PM
OK - but then why don't other communities with a strong presence in this city feel the same way? I don't see the Portuguese or Greek communities feeling hard done by because TFC haven't fielded many (if any) players from those nations. They may well feel that way - but even if they do, they seem to be much less vocal about it. As you know well as much as anyone, Italian players at the top level rarely travel outside Serie A - I can only think of a few (Miccoli, and of course, Vialli and Di Matteo when they were with Chelsea, but even Vialli was at the very end of his career, along with Del Piero at Sydney). No such players came to MLS before Saputo brought the likes of Di Vaio and Nesta in. So I guess I'm asking, what Italian player would have been suitable enough for the Italian population of the GTA if so relatively few of them ply their trade on foreign shores to begin with?

It is not about Italian players, it is the whole thing. It just does not speak to the average Italian, at least from what I here, and now from what you see in the Italian media.

Again, I do not necessarily want anything, it is just the reality about it. TFC does not really speak to me as a follower of Italian football. Again I long followed the English game as well, so I will always have some love for TFC, but I think I am past, unless something big happens, it ever truly being my club, the way Milan is for example, or the way I had hoped it would be, losing does not help clearly.

Yohan
11-29-2013, 05:18 PM
What the hell are you talking about?????? I am really not interested in what you have to say on this, because you clearly have no clue what the hell I am talking about. Nobody is asking anyone to cater to anybody. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FACTS. TFC is not an attractive team to the Italian community. End off. You are getting offended from this. We do not need special treatment from anyone. But do not expect our support.
I'm not getting offend by your views. but what I got out of you is that TFC is not attractive to Italian community because it loses a lot, seems to sign way too many British players, doesn't play good tactical game and doesn't sign Italian players that'd make it more attractive to Italian community. Did I miss something?

and if you don't like my posts, feel free to use the block button. I won't be offended.

Cashcleaner
11-29-2013, 05:21 PM
Fine, I'll be the one who says it-

If there is a group of people in this city who don't want to follow TFC because they feel their country of origin has been under-represented in the roster, I don't want them to be fans.

Aside from simply generating income, the most primary goals of this club - from managers to players to support staff, is to win games by almost any means. Winning games means making money. That means a GM his coaching staff are going to draft, purchase, or trade for players in a manner which best serves the overall dynamics of the team (hopefully in a positive way).

As a supporter of this club, I care more about fielding a competitive squad and possibly someday reaching this mythical land called "playoffs" than I do about making sure we have some sort of balanced quota in place for our foreign players to attract a certain amount of fans who wouldn't follow the team if we didn't.

Anyone who doesn't want to support this team because we don't have enough of their countrymen playing will garner no sympathy from me. Could Toronto FC be losing out somehow by operating in such a fashion? Sure, I bet it is. Just like all other clubs in the world that will never be able to keep everyone happy. But I'd rather take a non-nationalistic approach to roster composition here in Toronto - well, aside from trying to bring in some of the top Canadian players for purely selfish reasons. :D

Ultra & Proud
11-29-2013, 05:25 PM
TFC is not an attractive team to the Italian community

Hate to rain on your parade but TFC isn't exactly attractive to any community lately.


We do not need special treatment from anyone. But do not expect our support.

And thanks for taking the time to speak for all the Italian Canadians out there. Are you assuming these things you are saying or did you guys all do a census or something?

trane
11-29-2013, 05:29 PM
I'm not getting offend by your views. but what I got out of you is that TFC is not attractive to Italian community because it loses a lot, seems to sign way too many British players, doesn't play good tactical game and doesn't sign Italian players that'd make it more attractive to Italian community. Did I miss something?

and if you don't like my posts, feel free to use the block button. I won't be offended.

You are offended, or you would not be responding. and do be honest I do not give a shit, and I am not a chicken shit to block anyone, even someone whose opinions I have little time for. And no you did not get it, its is not about losing, or about the players nationality, but it is about the brand of football, and it is not one that is attractive to the average Italian. The way that they have apparently treated several Italian players has not helped.

Bottom line TFC can do what the fuck it wants, but then do not complain when you do not get the support, or if one day BMO field is field with Impact jerseys when they come to town.

tfcleeds
11-29-2013, 05:30 PM
It is not about Italian players, it is the whole thing. It just does not speak to the average Italian, at least from what I here, and now from what you see in the Italian media. Again, I do not necessarily want anything, it is just the reality about it. TFC does not really speak to me as a follower of Italian football. Again I long followed the English game as well, so I will always have some love for TFC, but I think I am past, unless something big happens, it ever truly being my club, the way Milan is for example, or the way I had hoped it would be, losing does not help clearly.I get what you are saying - and it certainly doesn't help when the team sucks as bad as it has for so long. But I think it's a shame and a missed opportunity. It would be great if everyone who loved soccer in this city could embrace this team, at least, even when hopefully, it starts winning. I think the support would be all the better for it if everyone who loved the sport could get behind this team. But of course, no one is obligated, and that's probably an unrealistic thing to hope for anyway.

Ultra & Proud
11-29-2013, 05:31 PM
Fine, I'll be the one who says it-

If there is a group of people in this city who don't want to follow TFC because they feel their country of origin has been under-represented in the roster, I don't want them to be fans.

Aside from simply generating income, the most primary goals of this club - from managers to players to support staff, is to win games by almost any means. Winning games means making money. That means a GM his coaching staff are going to draft, purchase, or trade for players in a manner which best serves the overall dynamics of the team (hopefully in a positive way).

As a supporter of this club, I care more about fielding a competitive squad and possibly someday reaching this mythical land called "playoffs" than I do about making sure we have some sort of balanced quota in place for our foreign players to attract a certain amount of fans who wouldn't follow the team if we didn't.

Anyone who doesn't want to support this team because we don't have enough of their countrymen playing will garner no sympathy from me. Could Toronto FC be losing out somehow by operating in such a fashion? Sure, I bet it is. Just like all other clubs in the world that will never be able to keep everyone happy.
Another point to us having a club is/was the development of Canadian talent, not at the cost of our club like in the past, but hopefully through the academy. Now if I am going to take some comments on here as fact then what would the point be of developing or acquiring young Italian talent on the club level or nationally when if that player were to become good he would choose Italy over Canada, the country whom took the time, effort, and money to develop him, ala Hargreaves.

trane
11-29-2013, 05:31 PM
Hate to rain on your parade but TFC isn't exactly attractive to any community lately.



And thanks for taking the time to speak for all the Italian Canadians out there. Are you assuming these things you are saying or did you guys all do a census or something?

I am not speaking for the Italian community, I have made it clear is that is what I here and see. The recent media has confirmed what I have stated for some time. Why the fuck does that offend so many of you?

Yohan
11-29-2013, 05:33 PM
You are offended, or you would not be responding. and do be honest I do not give a shit, and I am not a chicken shit to block anyone, even someone whose opinions I have little time for. And no you did not get it, its is not about losing, or about the players nationality, but it is about the brand of football, and it is not one that is attractive to the average Italian. The way that they have apparently treated several Italian players has not helped.

Bottom line TFC can do what the fuck it wants, but then do not complain when you do not get the support, or if one day BMO field is field with Impact jerseys when they come to town.
what? enlighten me. I've heard nothing about this. sources would also be nice

trane
11-29-2013, 05:33 PM
I get what you are saying - and it certainly doesn't help when the team sucks as bad as it has for so long. But I think it's a shame and a missed opportunity. It would be great if everyone who loved soccer in this city could embrace this team, at least, even when hopefully, it starts winning. I think the support would be all the better for it if everyone who loved the sport could get behind this team. But of course, no one is obligated, and that's probably an unrealistic thing to hope for anyway.

I agree. But somewhere it has all gone sour. There is still hope, but for how much longer?

trane
11-29-2013, 05:34 PM
what? enlighten me. I've heard nothing about this. sources would also be nice

Give up already kid. I do not have time for this shit. And as I said I do not care as much as you apparently do.

Yohan
11-29-2013, 05:38 PM
Give up already kid. I do not have time for this shit. And as I said I do not care as much as you apparently do.
if you can't back up what you say, then don't say anything at all, old man

Ultra & Proud
11-29-2013, 05:39 PM
YBottom line TFC can do what the fuck it wants, but then do not complain when you do not get the support, or if one day BMO field is field with Impact jerseys when they come to town.

TFC never had the support (as you say) of the Italian community from the start and up until the years of shit started piling on there were no problems selling the place out. Not sure who, if anyone, is asking the Italian community to support and approve of TFC? Who really cares? If the team actually started winning there would be enough people following the team and jumping on the bandwagon to make the thoughts and feelings of 'community X' irrelevant.

Rudi
11-29-2013, 05:49 PM
TFC has not attempted to sign significant players from elsewhere (Laba being the exception).
Yet TFC is only now considering its first British Designated Player, at the same time that it's kicking the tires of an Italian (and a couple of others).

This "TFC only looks at the UK" thing is interesting, especially when you list out the highest-paid players in the club's history. You have to go through a bunch of other nationalities just to get to the first Brit.

Ultra & Proud
11-29-2013, 05:51 PM
Yet TFC is only now considering its first British Designated Player, at the same time that it's kicking the tires of an Italian (and a couple of others).

This "TFC only looks at the UK" thing is interesting, especially when you list out the highest-paid players in the club's history. You have to go through a bunch of other nationalities just to get to the first Brit.
Shhhhh....facts don't work here.

MartinUtd
11-29-2013, 05:55 PM
Trane, I don't think anyone is getting offended here but it is a pretty tense subject once it's broken down. I think you make some good points as to why TFC is not attractive to the Italian community, but like others have said, TFC isn't attractive to any community. Take it from an Englishman, I'm not impressed with Ricketts, Earnshaw or even Dichio. I just want to win.

What I don't understand is why is this coming out now that we're actively courting a big name Italian DP? The reason the soccer community is pissed off seems to stem from what's gone wrong in the local youth set up and bringing in veteran Italian players is supposed to fix this? I know you didn't say that but it seems to be the end game from this protest against TFC from the local organizations.

On a side note, my favourite player in TFC history is Amando Guevara and before 2008 I don't think I could even place Honduras on a map, I sure did enjoy rooting for them in the world cup though. Either way, I hope the semi-poisonous debate doesn't turn you away from the board. You have some pretty insightful things to say from a perspective I am not all that familiar with and I enjoy reading your posts.

PopePouri
11-29-2013, 05:58 PM
If these are really FACTS, I find it hilarious that this Italian community who feel aggrieved by the lack of Italian players at TFC would quash a deal to bring in an Italian.

Might as well stew in your own persecution complex.

WestStandGeoff
11-29-2013, 05:58 PM
It is not about Italian players, it is the whole thing. It just does not speak to the average Italian, at least from what I here, and now from what you see in the Italian media.

Again, I do not necessarily want anything, it is just the reality about it. TFC does not really speak to me as a follower of Italian football. Again I long followed the English game as well, so I will always have some love for TFC, but I think I am past, unless something big happens, it ever truly being my club, the way Milan is for example, or the way I had hoped it would be, losing does not help clearly.

Sorry if it seems like I'm calling you out, but can you please just explain in plain english what exactly TFC has been doing, or not, that "does not speak to the average Italian"? I've seen posts from yourself and others in the transfers thread talking about "traditions", and am having a hard time understanding what exactly is the problem. And what would it take to win over the Italian community? Bring in Italian players? Do we need to bring in someone from a successful Italian youth program to overhaul the academy to model our play after them?

To give a little perspective... I would say I mostly follow the EPL. But I have also been to matches in Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Czech Republic, and Poland, and also hung out with a bunch of Bestikas fans at a pub in Istambul back in January to watch the derby match with Galatasaray. Other than the German and Spanish league matches, all of them seemed to be a lower quality level than the EPL I'm used to watching, but did that hinder my enjoyment? Fuck no! And even for the German and Spanish league matches that were a different style of play, I still appreciated what was in front of me. At the end of the day, I had a blast each and every time - even at the Czech Republic and Poland matches where I could barely communicate with anyone else around me.

Again, sorry if it seems I'm singling you out, but you seem to be the most vocal about this.

zeelaw
11-29-2013, 06:17 PM
Maybe one day this thread will be about whether we have enough Canadians on the field.

Super
11-29-2013, 06:21 PM
Maybe one day this thread will be about whether we have enough Canadians on the field.

Hahaha yeah, no kidding. This IS Canada after all.

But really, we should just get some players of whatever nationality to get us in the play-offs. The rest shouldn't matter.

forzatoronto
11-29-2013, 06:25 PM
Glad this topic has been picked up elsewhere, because I think it's an interesting one. OK, so what I don't get is this. If the Italian community in the GTA, by and large, doesn't care for TFC because of perceived or real slights relating to the club's community outreach (read: youth football), suddenly TFC signing a big-name Italian player is supposed to make it all better? I don't get that. My contention is, either you support this club for what it is, or you don't. It should have nothing to do with the various ethnic rivalries that have served to undermine Toronto soccer clubs in the past.
If old guys at the espresso place on Bathurst I go to on Sundays to watch Serie A can be considered representative of the Italian community in Toronto, a lot of them would like to see one of two things: more local players, and generally a team and organization that's more multicultural. The feeling dates back to the '50s, when Italian-Torontonians had to found their own club, the creatively-named Toronto Italia, and were harrassed by police when attending their matches. A lot of people I talk to don't get why players from teams that beat TFC Academy don't get consideration.

It may sound an awful thing to say, but walking down almost any street in the GTA, you'll likely pass people with origins in five different continents, all within a couple blocks. The perceived British-centric attitude of TFC doesn't really mesh well with the multicultural reality of the city. And personally, as an Italian-Canadian myself, I feel like TFC has definitely tried to market itself as being a British club in Toronto. So between that and the team that's been put on the pitch every season, I can understand why a lot of Italian-Torontonians don't really feel that the team represents them.

A great point that ArmenJBX made is that TFC has a presence in British-style pubs, but none in Italian bars and hangouts. It truly mystifies me that TFC hasn't tried to market to the immigrant communities in the city, not just the Italian community. Vancouver signed Lee Young-Pyo, Montreal signed Di Vaio and Nesta, so it's not that these players won't come.

All that being said, I'll gladly cheer for any player from anywhere who gives his best for TFC. Two of my four (the other two being Nana Attakora and Amado Guevara) fave TFC players have been British, Carl Robinson and of course Danny Dichio. And like most, I want to see more local talent being given a chance.

zeelaw
11-29-2013, 06:29 PM
A great point that ArmenJBX made is that TFC has a presence in British-style pubs, but none in Italian bars and hangouts. It truly mystifies me that TFC hasn't tried to market to the immigrant communities in the city, not just the Italian community.

Who establishes the presence in the pubs and bars? Usually when I see TFC stuff it's from beer companies? Am I missing something like TFC FO driven contests?

TFC07
11-29-2013, 06:33 PM
Yet TFC is only now considering its first British Designated Player, at the same time that it's kicking the tires of an Italian (and a couple of others).

This "TFC only looks at the UK" thing is interesting, especially when you list out the highest-paid players in the club's history. You have to go through a bunch of other nationalities just to get to the first Brit.

Maybe so, but there have been more international players coming from UK than anywhere else excluding Americans. Why is that? Why TFC keeps on signing international players from UK than anywhere else?

EDIT: Also if you look at coaches in the past, most of them came from UK as well. Probably same with our GM's.

Yohan
11-29-2013, 06:37 PM
Maybe so, but there have been more international players coming from UK than anywhere else excluding Americans. Why is that? Why TFC keeps on signing international players from UK than anywhere else?
because MLS scouting system sucks, and FO will sign players that they know. it's all about connections in a lot of cases.

hopefully this will get fixed with a better scouting network, so that old boy club isn't as prevalent in player signings as it is right now.

PopePouri
11-29-2013, 06:37 PM
Maybe so, but there have been more international players coming from UK than anywhere else excluding Americans. Why is that? Why TFC keeps on signing international players from UK than anywhere else?

Communication and agent contacts.

Would Caldwell be as effective if he was from a non-English speaking country?

TFC07
11-29-2013, 06:43 PM
Communication and agent contacts.

Would Caldwell be as effective if he was from a non-English speaking country?

One thing: a lot of people can speak English these days.

Two: we had players who couldn't speak English at all in the past. So I don't buy communication point.

ensco
11-29-2013, 06:47 PM
Wow, a battle royale about what football philosophy Tom Anselmi pursued, and why.

This is my view of exactly much much thought went into the culture of team identity question: Zero.

He wouldn't have known what you are talking about. He hired whoever was put under his nose, and that guy brought in players he knew, or players from agents he knew.

But don't let me stop you. Enjoy.

Haddy
11-29-2013, 07:17 PM
The only thing I'm going to add to this conversation is that I think part of the Italian community is being misrepresented in this thread.

There are a large number of Italian-Canadians that maintain season tickets from 2007 - and I can think of at least three Italian-Canadian companies that have maintained luxury suites for just as long. Some of these Italians are prominent members of the community, while others like me, are just there to enjoy the fact that we even have a team. These tickets have been maintained for the love of the game - at a hefty cost for some - not based on what heritage or nationality a TFC player belongs to. If that was the case, the purchase would have never been made.

I think it's been blown a bit out of proportion as to why so many other Italian-Canadians don't support the club. Not everybody likes MLS or ever will. Personal taste is just that, personal. The quality of the league is still perceived as of lesser value. The local club has been not only god-awful to watch at times, but hilariously depressing. The honeymoon period of the team was short-lived. and the continuous fail of TFC came at a time when all other Toronto pro sports teams were equally as depressing. Only so much folks can watch.

But claims of the community getting its own team aren't far-fetched. League1 Ontario is taking applications. Derby day vs. Toronto Croatia? Me vs. Wife. We'd totally pay to see that ;)

Mark in Ottawa
11-29-2013, 07:24 PM
Isn't it sad that a club can set its own supporters and potential ones against one another by being so poor on the field.
I believe that if this team was winning we would not be seeing this conversation or at least not in the heated fashion it seems to be.

I think Cash said it all for me. There are a lot of teams out there. Go cheer and support the one that makes you happy.
If your friend/neighbour has made a different choice than you have ... c'est la vie.

Haddy
11-29-2013, 07:32 PM
We are not other cities, and our Italian immigration is much more recent, and much more devoted to the sport.

Do you have any stats to back up this claim? Specifically in comparison to other North American cities, especially those in MLS?

I'd really like to see them.

I grew up in Scarborough and Pickering's smaller Italian community (essentially those that started in the core, and their families settled in what was considered the 'burbs of the 50s-70s) and I can say, only from experience, that most of us landed here in the first half of the 1900's. Which I always thought was par for the course for so many other Canadians and Americans.

v00d00daddy
11-29-2013, 07:33 PM
I think every football loving immigrant population would say they are just as devoted to the game just as much as the Italians. for them, soccer is their number 1 sport too. You're going to have to come up with a better argument to why TFC should cater more to Italians. Being an Italian isn't going to entitle you to special treatment in soccer world in Toronto.

Agreed.

Now explain why TFC have, and continue to cater to followers of the UK game?

forzatoronto
11-29-2013, 07:34 PM
The only thing I'm going to add to this conversation is that I think part of the Italian community is being misrepresented in this thread.

There are a large number of Italian-Canadians that maintain season tickets from 2007 - and I can think of at least three Italian-Canadian companies that have maintained luxury suites for just as long. Some of these Italians are prominent members of the community, while others like me, are just there to enjoy the fact that we even have a team. These tickets have been maintained for the love of the game - at a hefty cost for some - not based on what heritage or nationality a TFC player belongs to. If that was the case, the purchase would have never been made.

I think it's been blown a bit out of proportion as to why so many other Italian-Canadians don't support the club. Not everybody likes MLS or ever will. Personal taste is just that, personal. The quality of the league is still perceived as of lesser value. The local club has been not only god-awful to watch at times, but hilariously depressing. The honeymoon period of the team was short-lived. and the continuous fail of TFC came at a time when all other Toronto pro sports teams were equally as depressing. Only so much folks can watch.

But claims of the community getting its own team aren't far-fetched. League1 Ontario is taking applications. Derby day vs. Toronto Croatians? Me vs. Wife. We'd totally pay to see that ;)

Definitely true. And Italian companies have advertised in the stadium. And obviously, a couple journalists don't speak for the whole Italian community: I facepalmed at the article's claim that the Gilardino deal fell-apart because of "anti-Italian" sentiment, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

But like I said, I would like it if the club had a more multicultural vibe. It's a multicultural city. All I know is that where I live, you see a lot more people wearing Juventus, Benfica, Olympiacos, etc. gear as opposed to EPL gear, whatever TV ratings might be like. It would make it more accessible to a lot of people in the GTA who already love soccer. That's all I have to say on the matter.

Haddy
11-29-2013, 07:36 PM
Agreed.

Now explain why TFC have, and continue to cater to followers of the UK game?

I hope this isn't naive of me to say, but EPL ratings vs. Serie A ratings?

forzatoronto
11-29-2013, 07:48 PM
Do you have any stats to back up this claim? Specifically in comparison to other North American cities, especially those in MLS?

I'd really like to see them.

I grew up in Scarborough and Pickering's smaller Italian community (essentially those that started in the core, and their families settled in what was considered the 'burbs of the 50s-70s) and I can say, only from experience, that most of us landed here in the first half of the 1900's. Which I always thought was par for the course for so many other Canadians and Americans.

Actually, the largest percentage of Italian immigrants in Toronto did arrive after WWII, mainly in the 1950s. There was a comparatively large wave of Italian immigration to Toronto from the 1890s to WWI, but the majority of emigrants from Italy in that period preferred South America and the U.S. as destinations. Compared to most other cities in the Americas, Toronto does have a more recent Italian immigrant population. The Little Italy on College dates back to before WWI, whereas 'Corso Italia' on St. Clair only dates back to the '50s.


From a pre-war population of approximately 16,000, the Italian community in Toronto grew to 300,000 by the 1980s. In the midst of this wave of immigration, Italians in the city would redefine their place in the city’s cultural fabric.
http://heritagetoronto.org/our-memories-are-here-italian-heritage-in-toronto/
(http://heritagetoronto.org/our-memories-are-here-italian-heritage-in-toronto/)
I hate giving Wikipedia as a source, but as the article on Italian-Americans illustrates, the vast majority of said people arrived in the earlier wave of immigration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_American

Alonso
11-29-2013, 07:54 PM
Intentions and practices rarely mix in business, it seems.

TFC went full on with the British flavouring right off the top with Andy Welsh, Carl Robinson, Danny Dichio, Ronnie O'Brien, then kept it going by signing Rohan Ricketts, Andy Iro, Reggie Lambe, Richard Eckersley, Darren O'Dea, Robert Earnshaw, Taylor Morgan, Darel Russell, Hogan Ephraim, John Bostock and Steven Caldwell, without every signing an Italian player in between. Not one. The closest was Gianluca Zavarise.

All For One it may be but it hasn't reflected that in the acquisition sheets. It's mostly Canadian, American and British.


That's what we are, 47% from those groups vs 9% Italian.

I don't belong to one of these particular groups but I don't get my knickers in a knot about it.

I learn to use the word knickers instead and embrace the community I was born into, not try to divide the community by insisting my ethnicity is god sent and should be cherished over others.

Again, if we sign an Italian player (especially one like Gilardino) I will have a chubby every TFC home game I go to. But fuck off with the TFC anti Italian bullshit.

Italians, Spanish and French players have mostly not come here because a) they make too much money, b) they don't have the same inroads into our community that is made up of 47% British/Canadian/North American of our population vs 8% Italians, 4.5% French, and 2% Spanish, and c) culturally they are very different and the incentives to move to a totally different culture haven't been there (ie. $$$$$).

Besides all this, TFC should be by the people for the people and should focus on winning not on which segment of the population to appease.

All For One.

MartinUtd
11-29-2013, 07:56 PM
Wow, a battle royale about what football philosophy Tom Anselmi pursued, and why.

This is my view of exactly much much thought went into the culture of team identity question: Zero.


Brilliantly succinct, we're definitely over analyzing. I just wanted to clean up the transfer thread.

v00d00daddy
11-29-2013, 07:56 PM
I hope this isn't naive of me to say, but EPL ratings vs. Serie A ratings?

Rating are higher for epl by a huge margin. Not even close.

So....because a lot of people like to watch the epl, Torontos team has chosen to make our team most appealing to those who like the epl more than serie a?

You know what? I agree with you. They have.

My question now is.....after 7 years of futility....why do they continue to do so?

I've said it before but I'm not looking for a token representative of Italian football to fulfil my desire to see footballers from my parents homeland.

I more about getting away from a footballing philosophy that hasn't worked in forever.

Any different philosophy that preaches fundamentals, possession, link play between all players, movement and vision.

We chose one....set it up for failure, turned on it quickly and scrapped it because we picked the wrong coach.

And we replaced it with a mentality circa 2007 TFC.

v00d00daddy
11-29-2013, 08:03 PM
I learn to use the word knickers instead and embrace the community I was born into, not try to divide the community by insisting my ethnicity is god sent and should be cherished over others.

All For One.

Seriously....this is why people say that there is an anti Italian sentiment in certain situations.

Who the fuck said that anyone defending the Italian footballing philosophy is also saying that the Italian "ethnicity" is god sent and to be cherished by others?

Then you have the gall to say all for one?

Come on man.

OgtheDim
11-29-2013, 08:04 PM
Wow, a battle royale about what football philosophy Tom Anselmi pursued, and why.

This is my view of exactly much much thought went into the culture of team identity question: Zero.

He wouldn't have known what you are talking about. He hired whoever was put under his nose, and that guy brought in players he knew, or players from agents he knew.

But don't let me stop you. Enjoy.


Although I agree it was largely unplanned, what Anselmi allowed to happen seems to have ticked off a few people, though not all, from a certain ethnic group in the city. That this reality was unplanned doesn't change the existence of that ticking off, preclude a discussion of it, nor a discussion of how to solve it.

Alonso
11-29-2013, 08:07 PM
No, not suggesting that at all. It's why there's still a huge faction of English footy fans that don't care for Toronto FC.

Again, I'm not of the camp that says "we need to have Italian players" - passport isn't important, results are. But, I can see why the Italian side of the city hasn't embraced the city; there has been no reason for them to. For some reason, Toronto FC quickly picked up a reputation for being a Brit-friendly team and kept it throughout. I'm not saying Mo Johnston was the reason why people came to see TFC, but Mo's connections formed the team, and those connections were mostly British, which perpetuated this idea.

It also comes down to playing style; TFC has always played poorly. In England's lower divisions, loyalty to a team comes first, performance second. It's why eternally terrible teams have support. In Italy, there's a stress on tactically beautiful football. Toronto hasn't had that consistently.


It's almost like we are in a former British colony with the Queen of England still as our head of state and with English as one of our official languages!

Who would get such an atrocious idea into their head?

This is multicultural Canada where the ethnic minorities have a greater say than the general population.

I think all Canadian women should wear burkas because 0.5% of the population does and we are racist if we don't accommodate that.

And I also think TFC should be made to be Italian centric because 9% of the population is of Italian ethnicity and we are racist if we don't accommodate for that to.

And I also think this is where I end sarcasm. /sarcasm]

OgtheDim
11-29-2013, 08:08 PM
Who the fuck said that anyone defending the Italian footballing philosophy is also saying that the Italian "ethnicity" is god sent and to be cherished by others?

....

Unfortunately, that's about all that is being said right now - a version of "cherish us, TFC".

I'm still waiting to hear what people want TFC to do, concretely, to address the "we are not being cherished" issue.

MartinUtd
11-29-2013, 08:15 PM
So are we talking about signing Italian veterans or making nice with Toronto's Italian youth organizations? I'm still not seeing any distinction. Or is this a case of the youth clubs stating their grievances and then others use that to say "Hey, they've been pursuing every ethnicity than my own in this loser club"?

v00d00daddy
11-29-2013, 08:17 PM
It's almost like we are in a former British colony with the Queen of England still as our head of state and with English as one of our official languages!

Who would get such an atrocious idea into their head?

This is multicultural Canada where the ethnic minorities have a greater say than the general population.

I think all Canadian women should wear burkas because 0.5% of the population does and we are racist if we don't accommodate that.

And I also think TFC should be made to be Italian centric because 9% of the population is of Italian ethnicity and we are racist if we don't accommodate for that to.

And I also think this is where I end sarcasm. /sarcasm]

That's all well and good and true but how this country was built and is governed has nothing to do with what style of football a nation wants to play.

Wanna build a country on UK principles and governance? Sweet. Good plan. I'm so in.

Wanna build a country's/club's footballing philosophy? Don't worry about what your fans want to see...worry about copying a philosophy that has provided results.

We didn't do that. We tried for a bit but couldn't tough it out.

Instead we reverted back to the philosophy that got us nowhere from the beginnig.

Btw...these statements can be applied to both TFC, and the CMNT.

WestStandGeoff
11-29-2013, 08:19 PM
Who the fuck said that anyone defending the Italian footballing philosophy is also saying that the Italian "ethnicity" is god sent and to be cherished by others?

I don't hear anyone defending the Italian footballing philosophy. I do hear people saying that because TFC is not playing with the Italian footballing philosophy the team doesn't appeal to them,

MartinUtd
11-29-2013, 08:22 PM
Are you implying some sort of strategy has been attempted with Canadian national team?

Alonso
11-29-2013, 08:24 PM
I don't think we should keep score of ethnicities; we've had so many, Dutch, German, Bermudan, Argentine, Nigerian. It's not really a contest. But, doesn't the fact that there hasn't been one Italian footballer in a city with half a million Italians and a deep history of Italian settlers feel a bit strange?


You're ignoring Lambardo, Dichio, Adam Braz, LaBrocca, Urruti, Vitti, Gian Luca Zavarise.


These guys are all of Italian heritage, and if someone claims that they are not then more than half of the people who claim they are Italian in this city are not either since they were born here, are Canadian, and should leave this TFC as anti-Italian business alone.

v00d00daddy
11-29-2013, 08:24 PM
Are you implying some sort of strategy has been attempted with Canadian national team?

Hahaha.

All kidding aside I thought the osciek days were a time where we were on the upswing.

Since then....it's been inconsistent at best and embarrassing at worst.

Alonso
11-29-2013, 08:33 PM
dammit TFC, you failed to sign single Korean player. I feel excluded.


Damnit TFC you failed to sign a single Mexican player...

I too, feel excluded....

(except you signed Miguel Aceval and my father is Chilean)

Well half excluded anyway!

brad
11-29-2013, 08:33 PM
TFC have looked at Italians in the past. This guy was on trial (I know for 100%)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Beretta

And it was Mariner that brought him over and trialed him. He wasn't getting paid due to the financial situation in Italy, hence the interest here. Not sure what happened with it though.

Alonso
11-29-2013, 08:47 PM
That is funny. It is a gut thing, but every time we talk about it, I grow a little less attached to TFC, due to the general reaction, which kind of confirms my thoughts.


Yes we are clearly racist to Italians.

I don't know how after the 100's of years of slavery, and the constant persecution in this terrible city that the Italians have had to endure with respect to footballing culture you all have managed to do so well?

/sarcasm]

Italians are prolific in this culture. They have done very well for themselves.

When my mother emigrated from Mexico to Toronto some 40 years ago, she learned Italian before English because she worked in factories exclusively with Italians.

My mother cooks Italian food as well as she does Mexican.

I love Italian food and culture. I love Roman history and what that means for European history and English, Spanish and all Latin culture/history in general.

Your view of the hard done by Italian within TFC circles is way off the mark in my humble opinion and is wearing thin.

But maybe you know something that I don't?

ArmenJBX
11-29-2013, 08:47 PM
You're ignoring Lambardo, Dichio, Adam Braz, LaBrocca, Urruti, Vitti, Gian Luca Zavarise.


These guys are all of Italian heritage, and if someone claims that they are not then more than half of the people who claim they are Italian in this city are not either since they were born here, are Canadian, and should leave this TFC as anti-Italian business alone.

Again, will reiterate that this isn't necessarily what I believe; rather, this is the sentiment for some of the members of the Italian community whom I have spoken to, and also a reaction to an article posted in the Italian Canadian paper.

I could care less where a player comes from, nor am I in any real position to do so! I'm half Armenian, half Venezuelan myself. If you're a good player, you get the job, plain and simple. But, from a business standpoint, to not accommodate for a large segment of your customer base is missing out. It's like opening a restaurant, advertising it as a "come one, come all" place, but only serving battered fish, chip buttys, blood pudding and meat pies.

If Toronto FC sign Defoe = awesome. If TFC sign Gilardino = equally awesome. I just see more benefit of signing a player like Gilardino and opening the doors to a market that hasn't been necessarily given a chance than signing yet another English forward, who I actually believe is of lesser quality than the latter anyway.

But that's just me. Left to my affairs, we'd have signed Henrikh Mkhitaryan three years ago! *grumbles*

brad
11-29-2013, 09:06 PM
Yet TFC is only now considering its first British Designated Player, at the same time that it's kicking the tires of an Italian (and a couple of others).

This "TFC only looks at the UK" thing is interesting, especially when you list out the highest-paid players in the club's history. You have to go through a bunch of other nationalities just to get to the first Brit.

Not to mention that the vast majority of "UK football" supporters are either Canadians that got into the EPL in The last decade or ex-pats.

Of the first group, the vast majority are going to support Arsenal/United/Chelsea/City/Liverpool/Spurs. Not much long ball there.

Of the ex-pats, well, again - if there teams did play the type of British football Mariner or MoJo played, unless they are longin for the 70's or 80's (which they are not), not going to be much interest there.

Now let's not even talk about the Dutch experiment here.

brad
11-29-2013, 09:25 PM
Maybe so, but there have been more international players coming from UK than anywhere else excluding Americans. Why is that? Why TFC keeps on signing international players from UK than anywhere else?

EDIT: Also if you look at coaches in the past, most of them came from UK as well. Probably same with our GM's.

With the exception of Carver - those managers were brought in because of MLS ties & knowledge.

MoJo was placed here by the league, and Mariner was brought in because he was part of a successful MLS team with Nicol. He was considered an expert on MLS talent. Nelsen is here because he is an ex-MLS player familiar with the league, and was brought in by Payne, an American with a penchant for central and South American players.

Sure - these guys have connections in the UK, but there was no grand conspiracy from TFC to make the team English.

If there was, we would have attempted to at a style of football used in the EPL in the last decade or two (we haven't). We would have signed players familiar to an average EPL fan, and we certainly would have signed at least one EPL DP.

brad
11-29-2013, 09:36 PM
Rating are higher for epl by a huge margin. Not even close.

So....because a lot of people like to watch the epl, Torontos team has chosen to make our team most appealing to those who like the epl more than serie a?

You know what? I agree with you. They have.

My question now is.....after 7 years of futility....why do they continue to do so?

I've said it before but I'm not looking for a token representative of Italian football to fulfil my desire to see footballers from my parents homeland.

I more about getting away from a footballing philosophy that hasn't worked in forever.

Any different philosophy that preaches fundamentals, possession, link play between all players, movement and vision.

We chose one....set it up for failure, turned on it quickly and scrapped it because we picked the wrong coach.

And we replaced it with a mentality circa 2007 TFC.

This team does not appeal to those that follow the EPL. It plays nothing like an EPL team, has had virtually no recognizable EPL players. I am an EPL fan, and have been for 20 years. TFC have never spoken to me on this level.

And guess what, most of the English ex-pat supporters groups hate TFC as well. The folks in the United supporters group think they are a joke (and always have).

Super
11-29-2013, 09:44 PM
This team does not appeal to those that follow the EPL. It plays nothing like an EPL team, has had virtually no recognizable EPL players. I am an EPL fan, and have been for 20 years. TFC have never spoken to me on this level.

And guess what, most of the English ex-pat supporters groups hate TFC as well. The folks in the United supporters group think they are a joke (and always have).

I agree with you. Friend of mine who is a Spurs supporter (lived here a couple of years, used to have seasons at WHL) said he would definitely acquire season tickets if we signed Defoe. So I can see how Gilardino would be able to attract a lot of Italians as well. All I can say is: good luck getting season tickets if we sign both :D

Alonso
11-29-2013, 09:54 PM
I agree with you. Friend of mine who is a Spurs supporter (lived here a couple of years, used to have seasons at WHL) said he would definitely acquire season tickets if we signed Defoe. So I can see how Gilardino would be able to attract a lot of Italians as well. All I can say is: good luck getting season tickets if we sign both :D



And this should be the goal IMO.

(TFC FO) Please sign both or you will have violent ethnic blood baths on your hands!


THINK CAREFULLY ON THIS

Haddy
11-29-2013, 09:58 PM
Rating are higher for epl by a huge margin. Not even close.

So....because a lot of people like to watch the epl, Torontos team has chosen to make our team most appealing to those who like the epl more than serie a?

You know what? I agree with you. They have.

My question now is.....after 7 years of futility....why do they continue to do so?

I've said it before but I'm not looking for a token representative of Italian football to fulfil my desire to see footballers from my parents homeland.

I more about getting away from a footballing philosophy that hasn't worked in forever.

Any different philosophy that preaches fundamentals, possession, link play between all players, movement and vision.

We chose one....set it up for failure, turned on it quickly and scrapped it because we picked the wrong coach.

And we replaced it with a mentality circa 2007 TFC.

Have to agree with you on the lack of determination during the Winter era. Bad coach or good coach, the philosophy's audition wasn't long enough. :deadhorse:

Haddy
11-29-2013, 09:59 PM
Actually, the largest percentage of Italian immigrants in Toronto did arrive after WWII, mainly in the 1950s. There was a comparatively large wave of Italian immigration to Toronto from the 1890s to WWI, but the majority of emigrants from Italy in that period preferred South America and the U.S. as destinations. Compared to most other cities in the Americas, Toronto does have a more recent Italian immigrant population. The Little Italy on College dates back to before WWI, whereas 'Corso Italia' on St. Clair only dates back to the '50s.


http://heritagetoronto.org/our-memories-are-here-italian-heritage-in-toronto/
(http://heritagetoronto.org/our-memories-are-here-italian-heritage-in-toronto/)
I hate giving Wikipedia as a source, but as the article on Italian-Americans illustrates, the vast majority of said people arrived in the earlier wave of immigration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_American

Thanks for that. Without looking it up out of sheer laziness, I wonder how that wave of Italians compares to other waves of ethnicity. Of course, looking both chronologically and at current population percentage.

Either way, my family arrived between WWI and WWII. We beat the trend! What do I win? Please tell me it's a cookie.

ArmenJBX
11-29-2013, 10:01 PM
Thanks for that. Without looking it up out of sheer laziness, I wonder how that wave of Italians compares to other waves of ethnicity. Of course, looking both chronologically and at current population percentage.

Either way, my family arrived between WWI and WWII. We beat the trend! What do I win? Please tell me it's a cookie.

You win internet points. They used to be bit coins, but those are worth a heck of a lot of something now! :D

Haddy
11-29-2013, 10:08 PM
You win internet points.

That sounds a lot like allocation money. No really, Haddy, it's real...you just can't SEE it.

Solved another mystery tonight. Armen is really Don Garber trying to pay me off with fake rewards again. Cookie or bust, buddy.

ArmenJBX
11-29-2013, 10:17 PM
That sounds a lot like allocation money. No really, Haddy, it's real...you just can't SEE it.

Solved another mystery tonight. Armen is really Don Garber trying to pay me off with fake rewards again. Cookie or bust, buddy.

Google'd "Toronto FC Cookie"

Kind of upset this exists, to be honest :(
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1Gx4t8XvnCM/TbDhMo1yB6I/AAAAAAAAAKU/sF_LsiBIQmE/s1600/DSC_0217.JPG

Haddy
11-29-2013, 10:24 PM
I bet Nesta and Di Vaio made those with Saputo's flour.

Damn Italians. First TFC's recruiting ability, now cookies. They ruin everything.

DigzTFC!
11-29-2013, 10:27 PM
United States
43


Canada
35


England, Ireland, Scotland & Wales
14


Jamaica
5


Agentina
4


France
3


New Zealand
3


Trinidad and Tobago
3


Bermuda
2


Brazil
2


Cameroon
2


Netherlands
2


Spain
2


Belgium
1


Curaçao
1


Ecuador
1


El Salvador
1


Germany
1


Guadeloupe
1


Guatemala
1


Haiti
1


Honduras
1


Ivory Coast
1


Latvia
1


Nigeria

1


Philippines

1


Puerto Rico

1


Russia

1


Serbia

1


South Africa

1


Switzerland

1


The Gambia

1


Togo

1



I roped UK & Ireland players into one because I think that's how others think. No Italians or Portuguese.

I think this speaks to a lack of a scouting network based off the coaches that came through. It explains the dutch/curacao, serbian and uk/ireland influence.

There is a glaring omission on behalf of TFC

DigzTFC!
11-29-2013, 10:34 PM
This is the all time roster broken down by nationality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_FC_players

MightyDM
11-29-2013, 10:41 PM
Sorry Trane and V00d00, but I just cannot accept your position. TFC has never been that organized about a footballing philosophy, and I really don't think it can be seriously suggested it has had one, except under Winter. By my count, only three of the coaches were British and of it's DP's, zero. I have no doubt your feelings are sincere, but there are no facts to back them up. In our diverse city, "all for one" should mean something. We cheered for Plata. We cheered for DeRo, and for Lombardo. And for the scots, Irish, Germans, Dutch, argentinians, nigerians and lithiuanians who have played for this team. Pretty much everyone except Cunningham and Garcia. And that's who Toronto is - everyone, from everywhere.

DigzTFC!
11-29-2013, 10:45 PM
Sorry, but I just cannot accept that.

What can't you accept about what I wrote? Coaches brought in players they knew through their own personal network. Not the clubs scouting network. The numbers are what they are. I didn't fabricate them. I didn't say anything about playing style.

Initial B
11-29-2013, 10:56 PM
I really don't see what the fuss is about. Some Italians like TFC, some don't. Some non-Italians like TFC, some don't. I figure it's all a matter of taste.

Anyways, if TFC signs Gilardino, would that be a good first step towards repairing the rift between the club and the Italian Community? Or is the relationship too far gone to repair?

MightyDM
11-29-2013, 11:02 PM
I was replying to Trane. I'll edit.

Richard
11-29-2013, 11:03 PM
Who cares?

Just win and everybody will come based on the law of averages in the GTA.

Super
11-29-2013, 11:03 PM
What can't you accept about what I wrote? Coaches brought in players they knew through their own personal network. Not the clubs scouting network. The numbers are what they are. I didn't fabricate them. I didn't say anything about playing style.

Great list! But personally I don't want the club to ever sign a player because we need to get an Italian. That would be foolish. Look at every MLS club, some scout more in certain areas than others, and at different times. Depends on who is running the club at the time. Times change. Now we've been in talks with several Italians in the last couple of months. No issue there. TFC is more than happy to sign an Italian. Or another Englishman. Whatever fits the vision of our coach at the time. The problem here is that some people are pissed that we lack players from a certain country. If TFC started pandering to that sort of thing you'd have other groups come out and complain. Before you know it we need another Bez who can assemble the UN as a team. That would be a nightmare!

Alonso
11-29-2013, 11:11 PM
This is the all time roster broken down by nationality.



You are just posting numbers without a source.

The source is more relevant than the actual post.

So what is your source?

v00d00daddy
11-29-2013, 11:27 PM
Great list! But personally I don't want the club to ever sign a player because we need to get an Italian. That would be foolish. Look at every MLS club, some scout more in certain areas than others, and at different times. Depends on who is running the club at the time. Times change. Now we've been in talks with several Italians in the last couple of months. No issue there. TFC is more than happy to sign an Italian. Or another Englishman. Whatever fits the vision of our coach at the time. The problem here is that some people are pissed that we lack players from a certain country. If TFC started pandering to that sort of thing you'd have other groups come out and complain. Before you know it we need another Bez who can assemble the UN as a team. That would be a nightmare!

Looking at that list don't you think they already have?

And as a result….I'm complaining.

I've said it so many times already. I don't NEED to see an Italian in the lineup for me to support TFC.

What I NEED is for TFC to look elsewhere and get away from the UK centric style of play, UK coaching/training staff, and UK player selection. It seems to be a safety net with this club.

We've had several coaches…..several assistant and keeper coaches….GM's and even our equipment manager…..all with from the same school of thought.

We knew it wasn't working so we went a different route but couldn't stay the course. We had to blow it up again and fall back on the only thing we seem to know. Is this just stupidity or is it done to appease a fan base?

My guess is that it's a bit of both.

The latest big name targets are a prime example. We all know that Gilardino is a great player. But TL has as much as admitted that a part of wanting a guy like that is to appeal to Italian fans. Better late than never if you think that's necessary. I don't. I don't want them to go after players to make fans happy.

But if we can admit that its PART of the reason they're going after Gilardino we also have to admit that it's the same case for Defoe. He's a great player too, but there is no way he was made a target simply because of his skill. He appeals to a part of the fan base as well.

That kind of thing has been going on since day one. We stocked this organization with people that are palatable to fans of a certain brand of football. And it hasn't worked. And it's not going to work.

DigzTFC!
11-29-2013, 11:44 PM
You are just posting numbers without a source.

The source is more relevant than the actual post.

So what is your source?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_FC_players

v00d00daddy
11-29-2013, 11:44 PM
You are just posting numbers without a source.

The source is more relevant than the actual post.

So what is your source?

Not sure if the numbers match up but I"m guessing it was this wiki entry. Sort the country column and I think those are the numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_FC_players


Here is another interesting list for current MLS players.

http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/mls-players-birthplace-2013-jugadores-por-lugar-de-nacimiento-2013

I find it interesting that there are as many Columbian (19), Brazilian (17) and Argentine (18) players in the league as there are Canadians (18).

Of the 54 players from those 3 countries we have 2. Laba and Aparicio

There are a total of 21 from England (14), Ireland (3), Scotland (3) and Wales (1)

TFC have 4 of the 21.

There are 11 French players, 11 from Mexico. 6 from Italy and 2 from Holland (although I only see Koevermans listed)

We have none of them except for DK.

Take that for what it's worth but it leaves me asking why the rest of the league sees the value in brining in players from some of the best footballing nations on the planet but we don't. Not just that, we have a disproportionate number of players from the UK…compared to other teams. Why?

For the record….I cherry picked out the nations that I think promote a brand of football that leads to the development of players that have the things that we've lacked for a long time. Footballing philosophies that I think would get us better results than the ones we've used so far.

v00d00daddy
11-29-2013, 11:49 PM
Sorry. I forgot Spain.

4 Spanish players. We have 1 in Rey.

For some reason I couldn't edit my previous post

Super
11-30-2013, 12:37 AM
Looking at that list don't you think they already have?

And as a result….I'm complaining.

I've said it so many times already. I don't NEED to see an Italian in the lineup for me to support TFC.

What I NEED is for TFC to look elsewhere and get away from the UK centric style of play, UK coaching/training staff, and UK player selection. It seems to be a safety net with this club.

We've had several coaches…..several assistant and keeper coaches….GM's and even our equipment manager…..all with from the same school of thought.

We knew it wasn't working so we went a different route but couldn't stay the course. We had to blow it up again and fall back on the only thing we seem to know. Is this just stupidity or is it done to appease a fan base?

My guess is that it's a bit of both.

The latest big name targets are a prime example. We all know that Gilardino is a great player. But TL has as much as admitted that a part of wanting a guy like that is to appeal to Italian fans. Better late than never if you think that's necessary. I don't. I don't want them to go after players to make fans happy.

But if we can admit that its PART of the reason they're going after Gilardino we also have to admit that it's the same case for Defoe. He's a great player too, but there is no way he was made a target simply because of his skill. He appeals to a part of the fan base as well.

That kind of thing has been going on since day one. We stocked this organization with people that are palatable to fans of a certain brand of football. And it hasn't worked. And it's not going to work.

Hey man, I hear you, and I agree with you. There's bias all over the place. However, just to be fair, the Prem is by far the most watched league in the world, so it's not like you're only pleasing British people by signing Defoe. I'm Danish, I've watched the Prem since Blackburn won their first trophy, and I'd be beyond happy with Defoe. Gilardino is awesome too, but I don't watch that much Italian football. You gotta consider that too. The TV numbers. The familiarity. Defoe is the star here - by far! In terms of fame, I checked, and Defoe has about 7 times the amount of twitter followers. So it's a marketing thing too. Not a bad decision to sign a guy that most people know. All I'm saying here is that, yes, I agree with you that there has been a bias towards British players, but in this case it's finally worked in our favour. I hope.

But it's not easy to find a coach who is not biased towards players from a certain region, or a style of football from a certain region. Nelsen played in the Prem, so that's the sort of experience he brings to the table. That's where he has his contacts. It's familiar to him. Every coach will bring their own bias. You're never going to find a coach who is willing to look all over the world without any preference at all. But one thing is for sure, I don't want a bias AGAINST British football either. Lots of solid players coming from there. But it starts with the choice of coach. Bet you if we got a Turkish coach we'd pick up a bunch of Turkish players as well. I kinda like that.

All I'm saying is that I don't want anyone to turn their backs on TFC because of the nationalities of players. We could be looking at 7 Italian coaches in a row, and 20 years of dominant Italian influence on TFC - but that shouldn't turn the British away either. It's kinda cool it works that way. Where will you see that in the world? Unique!

forzatoronto
11-30-2013, 12:57 AM
Thanks for that. Without looking it up out of sheer laziness, I wonder how that wave of Italians compares to other waves of ethnicity. Of course, looking both chronologically and at current population percentage.

Either way, my family arrived between WWI and WWII. We beat the trend! What do I win? Please tell me it's a cookie.

The people who came earlier paved the way for everyone who came later, have all the cookies you want. :D Or, well, I'll eat a cookie in your honour, at least. 'Tis the thought what counts.

jloome
11-30-2013, 01:25 AM
The idea behind multiculturalism is that people from many different backgrounds come together to form one community.\.

To the contrary; what you're describing is the "melting pot", the U.S. model. Multiculturalism is and has always been designed to preserve the uniqueness of cultures within a nation, not to mix them and create a national identity (I'll also add that encouraging segregation of cultures is socially unhealthy and has never worked well for more than a few hundred years anywhere.)

jloome
11-30-2013, 01:36 AM
Wow, a battle royale about what football philosophy Tom Anselmi pursued, and why.

This is my view of exactly much much thought went into the culture of team identity question: Zero.

He wouldn't have known what you are talking about. He hired whoever was put under his nose, and that guy brought in players he knew, or players from agents he knew.

But don't let me stop you. Enjoy.

Bingo. Give that man a cigar.

Trane, you know how much I respect you, but this whole thing is at odds because there are two arguments going on. One is people who think you're offended because the team doesn't sign Italians and those who understand that football is part of the Italian national identity, key to the culture itself, and thus an area of inclusive sensitivity.

Most people will never support either position. I'm among them, I'm afraid. I don't believe in nationalism and while I respect cultural histories, I don't belong to any of them nor choose to.

If we boil it down purely to the issue of style, I'll say we could do worse than copy Italian football. SOme possession now and then might actually be nice. Salt Lake is going to the final and plays counterattack really well sometimes. Portland players move into space constantly, which is why Porterball is interesting to watch. THose are key elements of Italian football.

I think we'd all agree those would be nice additions, once the nationalism issue is taken out of it.

But Ensco is right; TFC couldn't write a letter to fucking Santa Claus if their Christmas bonuses depended on it. They didn't pursue an "English identity", they hired the Brit recommended to them by the league, who was incompetent and paranoid, and then followed that up with enough corporate stoogery to fill a family-full of 1930s black-and-white movie vaudevillians.

This has never been about nationality. We can avoid these debates by phrasing it as "the style of football" since that's what this ultimately boils down to, regardless of the motivations (or likely lack thereof) of the corporate fuckwads who have screwed the pooch since day one.

jloome
11-30-2013, 01:41 AM
I'll also add that with the exception of DPs, it has been an expensive proposition to sign ANYONE from Europe ... which is why TFC had horrible salary problems.
I certainly think our limited old-school English long ball has been influenced by bad decisions to overpay for Brits; but the answer to me isn't to sign more overpriced European players (based on being in a capped league); it's to introduce that same style by hiring some flair from South America. It's working for RSL, Portland, Seattle, LA, Chicago ... but why would we want to learn from them?

ensco
11-30-2013, 01:57 AM
Although I agree it was largely unplanned, what Anselmi allowed to happen seems to have ticked off a few people, though not all, from a certain ethnic group in the city. That this reality was unplanned doesn't change the existence of that ticking off, preclude a discussion of it, nor a discussion of how to solve it.

OK. It's good off-season hot stove stuff. I don't mean to be snide. But what is there to solve? There is no "cause" to dissect.

RealG-TFC
11-30-2013, 03:31 AM
Who cares?

Just win and everybody will come based on the law of averages in the GTA.

It would really just solves all of our problems. Pure and simple.

But t add a match to this flamewar of sorts. We were almost called Inter Toronto FC. This sould be considered a blatant nod to Inter Milan, and by extension Italians as a whole, or purely a reference to the multi0cultural nature of Toronto. But alas they dropped the Inter...

trane
11-30-2013, 06:56 AM
If old guys at the espresso place on Bathurst I go to on Sundays to watch Serie A can be considered representative of the Italian community in Toronto, a lot of them would like to see one of two things: more local players, and generally a team and organization that's more multicultural. The feeling dates back to the '50s, when Italian-Torontonians had to found their own club, the creatively-named Toronto Italia, and were harrassed by police when attending their matches. A lot of people I talk to don't get why players from teams that beat TFC Academy don't get consideration.

It may sound an awful thing to say, but walking down almost any street in the GTA, you'll likely pass people with origins in five different continents, all within a couple blocks. The perceived British-centric attitude of TFC doesn't really mesh well with the multicultural reality of the city. And personally, as an Italian-Canadian myself, I feel like TFC has definitely tried to market itself as being a British club in Toronto. So between that and the team that's been put on the pitch every season, I can understand why a lot of Italian-Torontonians don't really feel that the team represents them.

A great point that ArmenJBX made is that TFC has a presence in British-style pubs, but none in Italian bars and hangouts. It truly mystifies me that TFC hasn't tried to market to the immigrant communities in the city, not just the Italian community. Vancouver signed Lee Young-Pyo, Montreal signed Di Vaio and Nesta, so it's not that these players won't come.

All that being said, I'll gladly cheer for any player from anywhere who gives his best for TFC. Two of my four (the other two being Nana Attakora and Amado Guevara) fave TFC players have been British, Carl Robinson and of course Danny Dichio. And like most, I want to see more local talent being given a chance.

This is pretty much it. I am not looking for a club of Italians. I would prefer a style of play that is based on tactical responsibility and solid defence. I am a 44 old Italian immigrant who watches Serie A at espresso bars. More then players I would like to see an Italian coach to teach proper footy.

trane
11-30-2013, 07:09 AM
Bingo. Give that man a cigar.

Trane, you know how much I respect you, but this whole thing is at odds because there are two arguments going on. One is people who think you're offended because the team doesn't sign Italians and those who understand that football is part of the Italian national identity, key to the culture itself, and thus an area of inclusive sensitivity.

Most people will never support either position. I'm among them, I'm afraid. I don't believe in nationalism and while I respect cultural histories, I don't belong to any of them nor choose to.

If we boil it down purely to the issue of style, I'll say we could do worse than copy Italian football. SOme possession now and then might actually be nice. Salt Lake is going to the final and plays counterattack really well sometimes. Portland players move into space constantly, which is why Porterball is interesting to watch. THose are key elements of Italian football.

I think we'd all agree those would be nice additions, once the nationalism issue is taken out of it.

But Ensco is right; TFC couldn't write a letter to fucking Santa Claus if their Christmas bonuses depended on it. They didn't pursue an "English identity", they hired the Brit recommended to them by the league, who was incompetent and paranoid, and then followed that up with enough corporate stoogery to fill a family-full of 1930s black-and-white movie vaudevillians.

This has never been about nationality. We can avoid these debates by phrasing it as "the style of football" since that's what this ultimately boils down to, regardless of the motivations (or likely lack thereof) of the corporate fuckwads who have screwed the pooch since day one.


It is not logical. When it comes to football I am a nationalist. I love Canada, I love Italy. And yes when I think of the footballing future for this country I would like to see it learn more from my old country. But the truth is that when it comes to football there is alot of anti-Italian sentiment.

I am just voicing my sentiment, because it came up again with this thing about Gila. I do not expect for it to be a preoccupation for the club. But I should now better because it always becomes this huge point of contention and much of it is about issues that are not really mine.

At least you understand that is not about Italian players. If I was you I would probably not like my sentiments either. Outside of football I am a conservative, monarchist, who believes that when you come to this country, at least interactions with society you adopt respect Canadian culture and traditions. But at home, at the table in the heart I will always be Italian, and as your said Football is a great part of that, this however does not diminish my love for Canadian football, I just wish it was a bit more like calcio.

I also do not think this English slant was on purpose, it just happened, other then marketing, because clearly the epl is the most popular.

OgtheDim
11-30-2013, 08:31 AM
... I would prefer a style of play that is based on tactical responsibility and solid defence. I am a 44 old Italian immigrant who watches Serie A at espresso bars. More then players I would like to see an Italian coach to teach proper footy.

I think all of us would agree with your first point.

Your third point is not necessary to get the first one done.

BTW, I would argue that Nelsen is instituting a solid defence. Tactical responsibility...will take time given the youth and poor technical coaching at a youth level of many of our players.

Laba, and Caldwell are the two best examples of what you want. Most of our midfield...........ugh.


Thinking about it, I think the reason I like Bloom so much is I see him trying to do what you say. Be responsible in attack and solid in defence - Ecks...not so much.

MightyDM
11-30-2013, 08:43 AM
Trane, your last two posts, if you re-read them, will show you why people get their backs up. We probably all agree that Toronto FC would be better with a style of play based on tactical responsibility and solid defense. And a competent Italian coach would be great, as would a good Italian player. But to then say Toronto FC is anti-Italian, when we all know that is utter nonsense, (as many have commented, they haven't been organized enough to be pro or anti anything) is divisive and unacceptable. That kind of division has hurt pro soccer here in the past and cannot be tolerated, which is why people react. Please stop it. Your comments have dominated the Boards for two weeks and that's enough.

trane
11-30-2013, 08:48 AM
^
og

I have not disliked what Nelsen has done, and I agree that it does not have to be an Italian. Clearly I would like to be, but more important is quality.


I just had a conversation at a bar, espresso that is, I do not have time to post it, but it captures what I think is the sentiment among Italian immigrants, in general. I will try later.

trane
11-30-2013, 08:52 AM
Trane, your last two posts, if you re-read them, will show you why people get their backs up. We probably all agree that Toronto FC would be better with a style of play based on tactical responsibility and solid defense. And a competent Italian coach would be great, as would a good Italian player. But to then say Toronto FC is anti-Italian, when we all know that is utter nonsense, (as many have commented, they haven't been organized enough to be pro or anti anything) is divisive and unacceptable. That kind of division has hurt pro soccer here in the past and cannot be tolerated, which is why people react. Please stop it. Your comments have dominated the Boards for two weeks and that's enough.

I never said that Toronto FC is anti-Italian, but I do think that was the undertone of the article. But there clearly is anti-Italian sentiment among supporters, and followers of football in Canada. But that is what it is, it is part of football.

OgtheDim
11-30-2013, 09:41 AM
... But there clearly is anti-Italian sentiment among supporters, and followers of football in Canada. But that is what it is, it is part of football.

The only time I have ever heard that first sentiment is from racist a-holes.

Is criticising the perceived commonalities of Italian football anti-Italian?

Is criticising the Azzuri being anti-Italian?

Is criticising the tendency of some people within cultural groups, including but not limited to Italians, to want to build soccer structures at the youth level around ethnicity, is that being anti-Italian?

Then, if so, call this son of a Lancashire ship builder anti-British.

I despise the way the EPL has become what it is, and the way the SPL accepts what it has become.

I can't stand the fawning over second rate players who put on the English shirt.

And I have always,, since I was playing minor soccer in a VERY German Kitchener back in the 70's, hated ANY group that puts ethnic barriers around youth development.

Am I anti-British?


Nah, there is a perception among some, and I think its a small group, of Italian soccer people in this country that criticism of Seria A, or the Azzuri or Italian ethnically based youth development is being anti-Italian.

It isn't.


People want to build something within soccer based on a style that they know from a cultural reference point- fine, as long as they accept anybody who goes along with that from whatever background they come from.

But to call criticising that style racist? And to call not necessarily following that style being anti-a certain nationality?

Not having it.

MightyDM
11-30-2013, 09:42 AM
I'm not going to go back over your last two weeks of missives, but you clearly did say that you and others feel TFC is anti Italian, and that's why everyone reacted. And if your gripe is that football supporters in Canada are anti Italian ( which I also disagree with) it doesn't belong on these boards - go post on the Voyageurs site.
I'm not going to reply any more and I hope you vent somewhere elase. It isn't right to do it here.

Alonso
11-30-2013, 10:40 AM
I'll also add that with the exception of DPs, it has been an expensive proposition to sign ANYONE from Europe ... which is why TFC had horrible salary problems.
I certainly think our limited old-school English long ball has been influenced by bad decisions to overpay for Brits; but the answer to me isn't to sign more overpriced European players (based on being in a capped league); it's to introduce that same style by hiring some flair from South America. It's working for RSL, Portland, Seattle, LA, Chicago ... but why would we want to learn from them?



Yes PLEASE.


More Mexicans g:D

DigzTFC!
11-30-2013, 10:51 AM
But there clearly is anti-Italian sentiment among supporters, and followers of football in Canada. But that is what it is, it is part of football.

So the issue isn't the club it's it supporters and football in Canada? I think you need to control your "passion" and how you direct it.

Also, lets review who runs the CSA at the moment as you've made it a larger sweeping discussion.
- Victor Montagliani - President (Italian) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUiWd_j8NGs
- Peter Montopoli - CEO (Italian)
- Tony Fonseca - TD (Portuguese)
- Benito Floro - Head Coach (Spanish)

Who designed League 1 Ontario through the OSA.....Dino Rossi (Italian).

The only thing I can support what you say is that there is a lack of Italian content on TFC historically (stats) and the communities interpretation and general sentiment. You're really shot gunning the issues right now.

RealG-TFC
11-30-2013, 11:03 AM
I never said that Toronto FC is anti-Italian, but I do think that was the undertone of the article. But there clearly is anti-Italian sentiment among supporters, and followers of football in Canada. But that is what it is, it is part of football.

I'm assuming this is meant to include pretty much everyone that is not Italian rooting against Italy in Euro/World cups too. Italian football has always appeared to the outsider be so insular, operating mostly in its own little world. Almost exclusionary. Hence many people do not reallly care in understanding it, and just cast it aside. Not saying it's fair, but I think thats the way many people see it.

I know this is a sensitvie topic but, are we really going to say that the Italian community here could feel included and TFC still not having Italians. I don't see it. I hate to say it but I think its pretty evident that for Italians to be felt included it almost totally means having italian players/coaches. Which is totally okay, because really how will anyone achieve 'Italian style" football without any Italians. However when that unmet desire turns into a sentiment of being actively discriminated against, given the circumstances before us, I find that to be an unreasonable conclusion.

Obviously both (mis)perceptions are interrealted to one another, but what is common to them is that both groups have made an unfair judgement. By distancing themselves from the other groups, they unfortuantely become a widely know 'other'. Which is not okay in the diverse and multli-cultural community that is our city.

Beach_Red
11-30-2013, 11:09 AM
This discussion shows a lot of the challenges for MLS and for soccer in North America. I hope TFC and the rest of MLS is up to the challenge.

I think there has been an attitude at TFC (and also at MLS) that soccer is so popular around the world that it was inevitable it would be successful in North America, all they had to do was put on games and people would show up. There is still an attitude here that winning will solve everything (and I'd certainly like to see that theory tested!) but selling soccer in North America may be more complicated than that.

ManUtd4ever
11-30-2013, 11:46 AM
Wow, a battle royale about what football philosophy Tom Anselmi pursued, and why.

This is my view of exactly much much thought went into the culture of team identity question: Zero.

He wouldn't have known what you are talking about. He hired whoever was put under his nose, and that guy brought in players he knew, or players from agents he knew.

But don't let me stop you. Enjoy.

Bingo, which is why any perceived sense of alienation that may exist amongst any of the large ethnic communities in this city is self imposed in my opinion.

The front office of TFC has been a complete and utter shitshow since the inception of the franchise, and a revolving door of managerial/player personnel. The club has never established an identity or adhered to a footballing philosophy, period.

But hey, if certain supporters want to entertain conspiracy theories, knock yourselves out. I just want to support a winning team.

ManUtd4ever
11-30-2013, 11:53 AM
This team does not appeal to those that follow the EPL. It plays nothing like an EPL team, has had virtually no recognizable EPL players. I am an EPL fan, and have been for 20 years. TFC have never spoken to me on this level.

And guess what, most of the English ex-pat supporters groups hate TFC as well. The folks in the United supporters group think they are a joke (and always have).

Agreed.

jazzy
11-30-2013, 12:12 PM
The only time I have ever heard that first sentiment is from racist a-holes.

Is criticising the perceived commonalities of Italian football anti-Italian?

Is criticising the Azzuri being anti-Italian?

Is criticising the tendency of some people within cultural groups, including but not limited to Italians, to want to build soccer structures at the youth level around ethnicity, is that being anti-Italian?

Then, if so, call this son of a Lancashire ship builder anti-British.

I despise the way the EPL has become what it is, and the way the SPL accepts what it has become.

I can't stand the fawning over second rate players who put on the English shirt.

And I have always,, since I was playing minor soccer in a VERY German Kitchener back in the 70's, hated ANY group that puts ethnic barriers around youth development.

Am I anti-British?


Nah, there is a perception among some, and I think its a small group, of Italian soccer people in this country that criticism of Seria A, or the Azzuri or Italian ethnically based youth development is being anti-Italian.

It isn't.


People want to build something within soccer based on a style that they know from a cultural reference point- fine, as long as they accept anybody who goes along with that from whatever background they come from.

But to call criticising that style racist? And to call not necessarily following that style being anti-a certain nationality?

Not having it.

well said........that said I am also from British parents , who had no right to love Manchester united (their only poor decision)..:), more to the point I actually regained my devotion and love of the sport from my Italian co-workers years ago when working in construction. Their sheer knowledge and devotion of their area teams inspired me to reacquaint myself to my forgotten (in Canada) sport . Now my Portuguese, Latin, east European, African friends all continue offer me inspiration towards our wonderful game. I wish wholeheartedly and have on this board for years cried aloud why we haven't mined these cultures at the expense of the 'British' influence . There is only one EPL and can't be emulated . (mainly because of the high quality internationals who choose to play there)..TFC needs anyone with talent period...........I must say I have closed minded European friends who without thinking adore their countries league without question but also some more open minded 'talented' players who love their 'parents' teams yes, but deep in their hearts wish nothing but success for our 'local' team , if only for the sake of the game . Of course they have been let down and see through the BS, at every turn by the past joke of mgmt at TFC . Can't blame their skepticism ! I think it's healthy to idolize certain 'styles' it is a sport but when there may be 'racism' it is only from jerks who unfortunately permeate every category of life and hopefully will be schooled through subsequent interactions with persons of their opposite.

Eastend
11-30-2013, 12:54 PM
Not to get into this too much but I find that many people with deep roots in European football, even those or especially those, that have never stepped a foot in Europe are very snobby against any football here. Doesn't matter which country their roots are from.

.....just sayin'

Dom

p.s. I grew up with EPL with family ties to Manchester United and I have to say I love TFC, even with our shitty history.

Eastend
11-30-2013, 12:56 PM
This team does not appeal to those that follow the EPL. It plays nothing like an EPL team, has had virtually no recognizable EPL players. I am an EPL fan, and have been for 20 years. TFC have never spoken to me on this level.

And guess what, most of the English ex-pat supporters groups hate TFC as well. The folks in the United supporters group think they are a joke (and always have).

I disagree with the first line.

v00d00daddy
11-30-2013, 01:03 PM
Guys…to reiterate what was said earlier (by jloome I think) this is not a question of being anti Italian or pro Brit in terms of the people or the culture. It's about footballing philosophy.

TFC don't want the continental game….they don't want "tiki taka"……they value heart, determination and "getting stuck in" as much, or more than the fundamentals, movement off the ball and simple stuff like defending as a unit.

This, imo, is because it appeals to the pro UK FOOTBALLING fans.

I've brought up this example before. I stand watching a TFC game and see one of our players, under little or no pressure, waste a ball 40 yards up field or worse, duff a simple pass and give it away to an opponent. Now…..the next thing said player does is chase down the guy he just gave the ball to, slide tackle hard to force the ball out of bounds.

What happens with the supporters? Well…they're upset for a second at the terrible original play but are happy to clap and cheer for the guy because he showed grit and determination to chase down his mistake and slide tackle the opposition hard.

It's just a different way of thinking from how I was brought up with the game. I won't clap for that guy. I'm not impressed that he "made up for his mistake". I'm upset that he was too stupid to do anything to prevent it.

Different fans have different expectations based on the brand of football they appreciate. I get that

But when we constantly favour a brand of football that has gotten us no results I have to ask why? Why do we stick with this stuff?

Some may say it's a lack of talent. And I agree to a certain extent. But it's not about a lack of talent all the time. It's about a lack of emphasis being put on the important things.

Look at Eckersley as an example. All the heart and determination in the world. Some pedigree to boot. But the guy is brutal in terms of positional awareness, defensive responsibility and vision for outlet passes. He's one footed (fair enough, lots of guys are), heavy handed with his temper and level of aggression and worst of all, he's got the balls to have a hissy fit when the ball goes in the back of our net.

Some may call this passion but I think people are blinded by the stuff they grew up with. Players like this are no longer acceptable. You can't win with them. For some reason we not only think we can win with them….but we pay them stupid amounts of money because we value what they bring way more than anyone else would.

And what does this lead to? More of the same. Look at Ashtone Morgan. He's a carbon copy of Eckersely but on the left side.

We don't value the right things in Canada (in general) when it comes to football. It's been like this for decades.

Why does it have to continue at TFC?

jloome
11-30-2013, 01:16 PM
It's about footballing philosophy.

TFC don't want the continental game….they don't want "tiki taka"……they value heart, determination and "getting stuck in" as much, or more than the fundamentals, movement off the ball and simple stuff like defending as a unit.

This, imo, is because it appeals to the pro UK FOOTBALLING fans.


It has nothing to do with appealing to fans. Again, they didn't incorporate their "direction" in such a manner.

It has everything with that being the easiest type of football to teach, in a league where many of the players are pure athletes with little soccer technique and not enough years reading the game.

MLS used to be full of teams like TFC. As the league cap has increased and they've learned to poach from more technical leagues south of us, the league's teams have begun to change their tactical approach.

But by tying us up with salary cap woes, we haven't been able to keep pace, nor have we shown the front office intelligence to suggest it will happen.

Beach_Red
11-30-2013, 01:24 PM
It has nothing to do with appealing to fans. Again, they didn't incorporate their "direction" in such a manner.

.

You're right,these guys can't even figure out an identity for the Maple Leafs, there's no way it was even a consideration for soccer.

v00d00daddy
11-30-2013, 07:08 PM
Nobody has been able to explain the numbers from the previous page.

Two questions.

1. Why have we had so many players from the UK during our 7 year history?

2. Why do we have so few from great footballing nations while the rest or the league acquires players from Brazil, France, Argentina, Mexico, Italy etc?

And a third question just in case the answer to the two above is "we picked guys based on what our coaches and management wanted".

3. Why do we want managers and coaches that pick the same kinds of players that have gotten us nowhere?

Beach_Red
11-30-2013, 07:16 PM
Nobody has been able to explain the numbers from the previous page.

Two questions.

1. Why have we had so many players from the UK during our 7 year history?

2. Why do we have so few from great footballing nations while the rest or the league acquires players from Brazil, France, Argentina, Mexico, Italy etc?

And a third question just in case the answer to the two above is "we picked guys based on what our coaches and management wanted".

3. Why do we want managers and coaches that pick the same kinds of players that have gotten us nowhere?

When TFC started they handed over the team to an agent (sure, Mo was officially the coach and GM but with zero GM experience someone had to negotiate the contracts and what a coincidence he happened to repped by someone who also repped players...). There were lots of threads on here about how many players the team was signing from a single agency. They've never really recovered from that. It's why letting Anselmi run the team instead of making their very first hire a team president was such a huge mistake.

v00d00daddy
11-30-2013, 07:16 PM
It has nothing to do with appealing to fans. Again, they didn't incorporate their "direction" in such a manner.

It has everything with that being the easiest type of football to teach, in a league where many of the players are pure athletes with little soccer technique and not enough years reading the game.

MLS used to be full of teams like TFC. As the league cap has increased and they've learned to poach from more technical leagues south of us, the league's teams have begun to change their tactical approach.

But by tying us up with salary cap woes, we haven't been able to keep pace, nor have we shown the front office intelligence to suggest it will happen.

If that's all true then explain why we deviated, for a short time, from the aimless path of simple football and went with the Dutch idea?

And more importantly...why, when it was determined to have been a huge failure, did they revert back to the UK influence and style of play?

All in an effort to be simple to teach? I don't buy it.


You're right,these guys can't even figure out an identity for the Maple Leafs, there's no way it was even a consideration for soccer.

TFC has an identity. We are a club that values football from 40 years ago.

It doesn't produce a good product on the field but it's made them a shitload of money because as long as the club can "feel" like a UK based club they know they'll make money.

Stadium, jersey, concessions, game day experience, wall of honour.

Coaches, gms, assistants, trainers, equipment managers, commentators, play by play guys.

All part of what we've been sold. And all with a distinct "feeling"

v00d00daddy
11-30-2013, 07:19 PM
When TFC started they handed over the team to an agent (sure, Mo was officially the coach and GM but with zero GM experience someone had to negotiate the contracts and what a coincidence he happened to repped by someone who also repped players...). There were lots of threads on here about how many players the team was signing from a single agency. They've never really recovered from that. It's why letting Anselmi run the team instead of making their very first hire a team president was such a huge mistake.

Even if that's true. It doesn't explain why they went with the Dutch model. It also doesn't explain why they scrapped it and why they followed it up with more UK based footballing.

Beach_Red
11-30-2013, 07:25 PM
Even if that's true. It doesn't explain why they went with the Dutch model. It also doesn't explain why they scrapped it and why they followed it up with more UK based footballing.

It's not a nationality thing, it's a corporate thing. TFC isn't a sporting club, it's a franchise, a division of a corporation and that's the kind of thinking that guides it. They went with the Dutch model because that's what the consulting firm advised. If the consulting firm had told them to have the players wear skates they would have gone with that.

But yes, you're right, all that wall of honour, stadium, jersey, etc., was likely based on a UK model. Toronto is based on a UK model. Canada is based on a UK model (Kitchener is based on the German spoke model, I think, instead of the UK grid model).

DigzTFC!
11-30-2013, 09:46 PM
I tend to agree with Jloome on this. We have played 4-4-2 because it's the easiest style to learn. If you really want to point to a nationality it's the Canadian content that has held us back more than anything. The Canadian player isn't good enough and those that are were overpaid. It's no coincidence that the Impact and Whitecaps have seen more success. They prioritize winning over nationality. It's not the only factor but that contributes to this argument. The Canadian player typically is all effort no technique that doesn't allow for a possession game. It really isn't an England philosophy. We don't have overlapping runs from our fullbacks. We can't deliver crosses. We don't have a football philosophy which mirrors that of the Canadian game.

I am a CMNT supporter. But the reality is our national player pool can't compete at the moment at club or country with very few exceptions.

OgtheDim
11-30-2013, 09:47 PM
TFC has an identity. We are a club that values football from 40 years ago.

...

Oh please, can the hyperbole, will you. I watched a bit of football 40 years ago, as much as you could in this country at the time. Tactically, TFC would wipe the floor of teams from then. Laba alone would make teams from then tear their hair out.

More importantly, we do not know how this team will be set up tactically. We think we do, but Nelsen has stated he had to play the tactics the team, as constituted, could produce with.

As I stated in the rumours thread, when we hear who else they bring in apart from the DP's, then we'll get a better clue.

v00d00daddy
11-30-2013, 10:18 PM
Oh please, can the hyperbole, will you. I watched a bit of football 40 years ago, as much as you could in this country at the time. Tactically, TFC would wipe the floor of teams from then. Laba alone would make teams from then tear their hair out.

More importantly, we do not know how this team will be set up tactically. We think we do, but Nelsen has stated he had to play the tactics the team, as constituted, could produce with.

As I stated in the rumours thread, when we hear who else they bring in apart from the DP's, then we'll get a better clue.

I'm not talking about how they'll set up tactically this year.

That's not what we're talking about.

I'm not going to ignore the last 7 years by being told to wait and see what they do next season.

Why have they done what they've done so far? Explain why we look the way we look, pick the players and coaches we pick and play the style we play.

trane
11-30-2013, 11:30 PM
So the issue isn't the club it's it supporters and football in Canada? I think you need to control your "passion" and how you direct it.

Also, lets review who runs the CSA at the moment as you've made it a larger sweeping discussion.
- Victor Montagliani - President (Italian) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUiWd_j8NGs
- Peter Montopoli - CEO (Italian)
- Tony Fonseca - TD (Portuguese)
- Benito Floro - Head Coach (Spanish)

Who designed League 1 Ontario through the OSA.....Dino Rossi (Italian).

The only thing I can support what you say is that there is a lack of Italian content on TFC historically (stats) and the communities interpretation and general sentiment. You're really shot gunning the issues right now.

Control my passion??? someone else says I am ranting. Other then yohan annoying me, I am not angry at all, about the issue, I have just voiced my view of what the feelings are in the Italian football community. I am neither angry nor offended.

Nor did I call the club racist.

trane
11-30-2013, 11:33 PM
It's not a nationality thing, it's a corporate thing. TFC isn't a sporting club, it's a franchise, a division of a corporation and that's the kind of thinking that guides it. They went with the Dutch model because that's what the consulting firm advised. If the consulting firm had told them to have the players wear skates they would have gone with that.

But yes, you're right, all that wall of honour, stadium, jersey, etc., was likely based on a UK model. Toronto is based on a UK model. Canada is based on a UK model (Kitchener is based on the German spoke model, I think, instead of the UK grid model).


And I am ok with that and at least you recognize it. I am ok with it. Just not in soccer.

brad
11-30-2013, 11:37 PM
Even if that's true. It doesn't explain why they went with the Dutch model. It also doesn't explain why they scrapped it and why they followed it up with more UK based footballing.

Mariner was put in place because he was the MLS guy. He was supposed to be the expert on the league and talent acquisition in the context of the MLS. It was based on the work he did with Nicol at New England. He got the job when Winter got sacked by weaselling his way in. Recall that he said early on that nothing was going to change with regards to style. He of of course immediately reverted to a 70's British style. It wasn't a grand scheme by TFC to go British. It was Mariner playing the corporate game.

TFC07
11-30-2013, 11:51 PM
I tend to agree with Jloome on this. We have played 4-4-2 because it's the easiest style to learn. If you really want to point to a nationality it's the Canadian content that has held us back more than anything. The Canadian player isn't good enough and those that are were overpaid. It's no coincidence that the Impact and Whitecaps have seen more success. They prioritize winning over nationality. It's not the only factor but that contributes to this argument. The Canadian player typically is all effort no technique that doesn't allow for a possession game. It really isn't an England philosophy. We don't have overlapping runs from our fullbacks. We can't deliver crosses. We don't have a football philosophy which mirrors that of the Canadian game.

I am a CMNT supporter. But the reality is our national player pool can't compete at the moment at club or country with very few exceptions.

Main reason why TFC has been awful due to overpaying international players (most of them from UK) and bad management. Blaming Canadian players is stupid since most of them are kids who were ask to step up to make up first team shortcomings. Canadian players aren't the reason why we sucked; it's killing our cap space on mediocre international players (especially those from UK) and hiring inexperience people in management is what hurt TFC the most.

trane
12-01-2013, 12:33 AM
I'm assuming this is meant to include pretty much everyone that is not Italian rooting against Italy in Euro/World cups too. Italian football has always appeared to the outsider be so insular, operating mostly in its own little world. Almost exclusionary. Hence many people do not reallly care in understanding it, and just cast it aside. Not saying it's fair, but I think thats the way many people see it.

I know this is a sensitvie topic but, are we really going to say that the Italian community here could feel included and TFC still not having Italians. I don't see it. I hate to say it but I think its pretty evident that for Italians to be felt included it almost totally means having italian players/coaches. Which is totally okay, because really how will anyone achieve 'Italian style" football without any Italians. However when that unmet desire turns into a sentiment of being actively discriminated against, given the circumstances before us, I find that to be an unreasonable conclusion.

Obviously both (mis)perceptions are interrealted to one another, but what is common to them is that both groups have made an unfair judgement. By distancing themselves from the other groups, they unfortuantely become a widely know 'other'. Which is not okay in the diverse and multli-cultural community that is our city.

Bravo, you pretty well hit it on the head.

I replied to this, but it seems to have been lost. You have captured the problem. I do not think that we are actively discriminated but we clearly feel like we are, and more importantly we will never be completely enamored with a non-Italian team ( clelary I am generalizing), and this may be a fault (probably is a fault) but as I said when it come to footy I am an unabashed nationalist (but lest be clear my Italy includes, Balo, El Sha, Ogbonna and Ferrari) what you are saying is very, very close to the full truth in a nut shell, with a few additional points.

trane
12-01-2013, 12:47 AM
For the record, this all came out of the Gila transfer. I just saw some-one tell me I should not come on and post my divisive stuff on here, for fuck sake, after my first post all I have done is replied to other posts. I really hate that people cannot have different views without someone being offended.

jloome
12-01-2013, 01:07 AM
Bravo, you pretty well hit it on the head.

I replied to this, but it seems to have been lost. You have captured the problem. I do not think that we are actively discriminated but we clearly feel like we are, and more importantly we will never be completely enamored with a non-Italian team ( clelary I am generalizing), and this may be a fault (probably is a fault) but as I said when it come to footy I am an unabashed nationalist (but lest be clear my Italy includes, Balo, El Sha, Ogbonna and Ferrari) what you are saying is very, very close to the full truth in a nut shell, with a few additional points.

Can I also suggest that in a way this is also a matter of pride? If the team is perennially awful, one way for a fan of Italian culture to express that is to point out that it has no Italian content. It's a way of still feeling secure about the love of the game, without tying that affection to a white elephant team.

In other words, if the team was winning all the time, I think even Italian fans wouldn't care that there's no cultural connection right now.

jloome
12-01-2013, 01:07 AM
For the record, this all came out of the Gila transfer. I just saw some-one tell me I should not come on and post my divisive stuff on here, for fuck sake, after my first post all I have done is replied to other posts. I really hate that people cannot have different views without someone being offended.

Yeah, offensensitivity.

trane
12-01-2013, 01:29 AM
^ Great word.

And I have to agree with your other post, the ineptitude of the team allowed the rise of these sentiments.

jloome
12-01-2013, 02:30 AM
Want a good national "draw" player who might seriously contribute, too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Lei
http://ca.soccerway.com/players/lei-wu/116426/
http://www.goal.com/en-sg/news/3883/features/2013/11/30/4442918/what-would-wu-lei-bring-to-fc-copenhagen

22, but has been playing pro since age 14. Third-leading scorer in the Chinese Super League this year at age 22. So far, only seems to have attracted attention from FC Copenhagen, which has European football to offer, but not necessarily DP wages.

Risky, but we could use a 'b' level DP who's a creative midfielder, can contribute plenty of goals, has marketability and age on his side.

flamehawk
12-01-2013, 02:59 AM
Want a good national "draw" player who might seriously contribute, too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Lei
http://ca.soccerway.com/players/lei-wu/116426/
http://www.goal.com/en-sg/news/3883/features/2013/11/30/4442918/what-would-wu-lei-bring-to-fc-copenhagen

22, but has been playing pro since age 14. Third-leading scorer in the Chinese Super League this year at age 22. So far, only seems to have attracted attention from FC Copenhagen, which has European football to offer, but not necessarily DP wages.

Risky, but we could use a 'b' level DP who's a creative midfielder, can contribute plenty of goals, has marketability and age on his side.

I wish. I would love to see a compatriot. Unfortunately, I doubt very many Chinese folks here follow Chinese or HK football, so it won't be an instant draw. Though if he does well and news spreads, I am sure there will be many new fans on board.

trane
12-01-2013, 06:13 AM
Want a good national "draw" player who might seriously contribute, too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Lei
http://ca.soccerway.com/players/lei-wu/116426/
http://www.goal.com/en-sg/news/3883/features/2013/11/30/4442918/what-would-wu-lei-bring-to-fc-copenhagen

22, but has been playing pro since age 14. Third-leading scorer in the Chinese Super League this year at age 22. So far, only seems to have attracted attention from FC Copenhagen, which has European football to offer, but not necessarily DP wages.

Risky, but we could use a 'b' level DP who's a creative midfielder, can contribute plenty of goals, has marketability and age on his side.

He can create and score. Young. It would be a good signing. The only issue is the quality of the league. The league is growing, the sport is big. I have spoken to several Chinese people (newer mandarin speaking immigrants) about football in China, and they all said the sport is big, but they feel the league is not as good as it should be. Lippi is their coaching a team and seems to be on his way to winning a triple crown. There is money in the sport, from what I understand. I have been told that the goverement is eager for the country t get better at the sport.

Kaz
12-01-2013, 10:13 AM
People identifying as Italian decent make up 3.8 percent of the Population of the GTA. 2.5% of the Population of Ontario. 1 player at any given time would be representative of Italians, currently I believe that about 2% of all players have been of Italian background.

My position on this is known, and I find it interesting I'm not the only one that sees the opinions of several people here the same way. This isn't Niagara Falls where 20% of the population is Italian and historically that number has been higher. It's not even the Niagara Region where 10% of the Population is Italian. This is a team based in the GTA, produce a style of football that plays in the MLS.

As has been said here Italian Football is insular and often times is a little different from the rest of Europe. Has anyone thought maybe that is why MLS as a whole has so few Italian players? That the style is different so they don't look at them? We don't have a lot of Asian players either yet 8% of the GTA is made of up Chinese (combined) If anyone has the right to complain it would likely be them.

jloome
12-01-2013, 11:08 AM
He can create and score. Young. It would be a good signing. The only issue is the quality of the league. The league is growing, the sport is big. I have spoken to several Chinese people (newer mandarin speaking immigrants) about football in China, and they all said the sport is big, but they feel the league is not as good as it should be. Lippi is their coaching a team and seems to be on his way to winning a triple crown. There is money in the sport, from what I understand. I have been told that the goverement is eager for the country t get better at the sport.

Yeah, I've watched some. The defending and goalkeeping reminds me of South America or the UAE; pretty horrendous sometimes. Maybe it's telling no one has picked him up yet, but i tend to think it's because he was playing at lower levels; he's carried his team to promotion two straight seasons, from Div. 3 to the Superleague.

He's definitely a step above that league. He has a very quick release and gets a lot on target but I notice his senior team goal stats aren't nearly as impressive as for China's U20s (where he scored more than a goal a game). He might well make a splash here, or like Brockie might find it just that much tougher (although I actually think Brockie would do well playing as a wing forward in MLS).

In terms of draw, FH, just look at Jeremy Lin and Yao Ming in the NBA; I mean, I know it has more global draw than MLS, but like you say, once the word got out...

v00d00daddy
12-01-2013, 11:53 AM
People identifying as Italian decent make up 3.8 percent of the Population of the GTA. 2.5% of the Population of Ontario. 1 player at any given time would be representative of Italians, currently I believe that about 2% of all players have been of Italian background.

My position on this is known, and I find it interesting I'm not the only one that sees the opinions of several people here the same way. This isn't Niagara Falls where 20% of the population is Italian and historically that number has been higher. It's not even the Niagara Region where 10% of the Population is Italian. This is a team based in the GTA, produce a style of football that plays in the MLS.

As has been said here Italian Football is insular and often times is a little different from the rest of Europe. Has anyone thought maybe that is why MLS as a whole has so few Italian players? That the style is different so they don't look at them? We don't have a lot of Asian players either yet 8% of the GTA is made of up Chinese (combined) If anyone has the right to complain it would likely be them.

I'm not one of the people that thinks that we need to have an Italian player to be more representative of Toronto or the GTA.

I'm one of the people wondering why the rest of MLS employs Brazilian, Columbian, Argentine, French, Italian and Mexican players and we don't.

We employ a disproportionate number of players from the UK. We have since the inception of this club. Add to this that we also employ more UK based footballing minds in terms of coaches, trainers and other team staff and the question becomes even bigger.

Some are suggesting that it's because our club doesn't have any kind of plan and this UK bias is just a coincidence and a matter of ineptitude on the clubs part.

That may be part of it but I don't think it's the whole reason.

People need to start admitting that it's a little strange how much UK footballing influence has surrounded this club from day one and then the next thing that needs to be recognized is that the UK footballing model is a terrible choice if what we want is success on the field.

I've said it from day one and 7 years later nothing has changed (apart from the stint of Dutch influence that we threw away at the first opportunity and replaced with more UK footballing)

It's odd that nobody wishes to address this.

According to MLS websites there are 530 players in the league. 60% are from the US and Canada. The other 40% are "foreign".

Of the foreign players (roughly 212), 84 (39% of all foreign players) are from Mexico, Brazil, Columbia, France, Italy, Holland and Argentina. TFC employs 3. Laba and Aparicio from Argentina and Koevermans from Holland.

TFC employs 2.5 % of all the players in MLS from those countries.

Of the foreign players (roughly 212) there are a total of 21 (10% of all foreign players) from England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. TFC employs 4. Eckersley and Russell from England, Caldwell from Scotland and Earnshaw from Wales.

TFC employs 20% of all the players in MLS from the UK.

Why?

Too small a sample size? Maybe.

But there it is in black and white. TFC is not biased AGAINST Italian football or any other footballing culture.

TFC is biased IN FAVOUR of UK footballing culture. Almost always has been. (The Dutch blip being the exception)

Again I ask….why?

Sources:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2013/03/28/major-league-soccer-releases-annual-players-world-map

http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/mls-players-birthplace-2013-jugadores-por-lugar-de-nacimiento-2013

TFC07
12-01-2013, 11:59 AM
People identifying as Italian decent make up 3.8 percent of the Population of the GTA. 2.5% of the Population of Ontario. 1 player at any given time would be representative of Italians, currently I believe that about 2% of all players have been of Italian background.

My position on this is known, and I find it interesting I'm not the only one that sees the opinions of several people here the same way. This isn't Niagara Falls where 20% of the population is Italian and historically that number has been higher. It's not even the Niagara Region where 10% of the Population is Italian. This is a team based in the GTA, produce a style of football that plays in the MLS.

As has been said here Italian Football is insular and often times is a little different from the rest of Europe. Has anyone thought maybe that is why MLS as a whole has so few Italian players? That the style is different so they don't look at them? We don't have a lot of Asian players either yet 8% of the GTA is made of up Chinese (combined) If anyone has the right to complain it would likely be them.

Well said. People forget that there's a lot of Asians and Indians in GTA, but you don't see them complaining.

Speaking of Asia, I am surprised TFC never attempted signing an Asian player. You would think it will be a bigger draw signing Asian players than say South American players in our market.

EDIT: Vancouver and FC Edmonton don't have problems signing Asian players, so TFC doesn't have that excuse that Asian players wouldn't come to Canada.

flamehawk
12-01-2013, 12:04 PM
Yeah, I've watched some. The defending and goalkeeping reminds me of South America or the UAE; pretty horrendous sometimes. Maybe it's telling no one has picked him up yet, but i tend to think it's because he was playing at lower levels; he's carried his team to promotion two straight seasons, from Div. 3 to the Superleague.

He's definitely a step above that league. He has a very quick release and gets a lot on target but I notice his senior team goal stats aren't nearly as impressive as for China's U20s (where he scored more than a goal a game). He might well make a splash here, or like Brockie might find it just that much tougher (although I actually think Brockie would do well playing as a wing forward in MLS).

In terms of draw, FH, just look at Jeremy Lin and Yao Ming in the NBA; I mean, I know it has more global draw than MLS, but like you say, once the word got out...

As you suggested though, the NBA is the highest level. Jeremy Lin and Yao Ming would be more akin to Mata and Ibra. I can't speak for China, but in HK, most fans gravitated to the highest levels. Even when we had Sun JiHai, Zheng Zhi, Li Tei playing in Europe, they were hardly followed. My grandmother grew up on local Hong Kong football (and brought me up on it) but as soon as we got cable, all she watches is Man Utd., Arsenal, etc. It appears a little different from South Korea, where I've met folks that even followed Wolves when we signed Seol Ki Hyeun in the lower leagues. There's a general antipathy/cynicism about HK and Chinese football, a belief that none of our players could reach a respectable level. I still remember a Uruguayan fan coming over to the local section during the Chinese New Year Cup (I think it was the year where HK, Uruguay, Iran, and Denmark played) to bargain, saying they'd support HK if we supported them. Everyone started laughing, saying HK were going to lose and he shouldn't even bother cheering.

The quality of the league would have to improve, and a Chinese/HK player would have to be a key player in order to draw fans from the community. I mean I doubt Long Tan drew anyone out when he was in Vancouver.

That said, it's always been a personal wish to have a Chinese/HK player play for Toronto (I certainly found Vancouver attractive with all the East Asian players they had - and players who actually started).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-VjWhKC_JI

I am pretty excited about Zhi-Gin Lam at Hamburg. He's just breaking into the Hamburg first team and his parents were from HK. That said, TFC would never spend the sorta money needed to get him for a fullback position (nor should they).

DigzTFC!
12-01-2013, 12:04 PM
Main reason why TFC has been awful due to overpaying international players (most of them from UK) and bad management. Blaming Canadian players is stupid since most of them are kids who were ask to step up to make up first team shortcomings. Canadian players aren't the reason why we sucked; it's killing our cap space on mediocre international players (especially those from UK) and hiring inexperience people in management is what hurt TFC the most.

I'm not blaming Canadian players. Players don't sign themselves. The front office made an overcommitment to Canadian content. All you other points are valid but we're talking within the context of nationality. I'm not sure how my statement is stupid, unless you assumed players inability are their own fault instead of club signing them.

There has been 35 Canadian players that have played for TFC. I can only count 5 players that would start for another MLS team. Even some of those, are suspect. Nana, Osorio, Serioux, De Guzman, De Rosario, and Brennan. Its an indictment of the front office that we've cycled through that many players with very little quality.



Nana Attakora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nana_Attakora)



Kyle Bekker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyle_Bekker)



Adam Braz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Braz)



Jim Brennan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Brennan)



Miguel Cańizalez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Ca%C3%B1izalez)



Adrian Cann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Cann)



Oscar Cordon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Cordon)



Julian de Guzman [a]



Dwayne De Rosario (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario)



Srdjan Djekanovic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srdjan_Djekanovic)



Terry Dunfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Dunfield)



Gabe Gala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabe_Gala)



Derek Gaudet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Gaudet)



Ali Gerba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Gerba)



Kevin Harmse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Harmse)



Tyler Hemming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Hemming)



Doneil Henry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doneil_Henry)



Diaz Kambere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaz_Kambere)



Nicholas Lindsay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Lindsay)



Andrea Lombardo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Lombardo)



Keith Makubuya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Makubuya)



Allando Matheson (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Allando_Matheson&action=edit&redlink=1)



Joey Melo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Melo)



David Monsalve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Monsalve)



Ashtone Morgan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtone_Morgan)



Jonathan Osorio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Osorio)



Chris Pozniak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Pozniak)



Marco Reda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Reda)



Tyler Rosenlund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Rosenlund)



Adrian Serioux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Serioux)



Kenny Stamatopoulos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Stamatopoulos)



Matt Stinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Stinson)



Greg Sutton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Sutton_%28soccer%29)



Emery Welshman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emery_Welshman)



Gianluca Zavarise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianluca_Zavarise)

Beach_Red
12-01-2013, 12:15 PM
I'm not one of the people that thinks that we need to have an Italian player to be more representative of Toronto or the GTA.

I'm one of the people wondering why the rest of MLS employs Brazilian, Columbian, Argentine, French, Italian and Mexican players and we don't.

We employ a disproportionate number of players from the UK. We have since the inception of this club. Add to this that we also employ more UK based footballing minds in terms of coaches, trainers and other team staff and the question becomes even bigger.

Some are suggesting that it's because our club doesn't have any kind of plan and this UK bias is just a coincidence and a matter of ineptitude on the clubs part.

That may be part of it but I don't think it's the whole reason.

People need to start admitting that it's a little strange how much UK footballing influence has surrounded this club from day one and then the next thing that needs to be recognized is that the UK footballing model is a terrible choice if what we want is success on the field.

I've said it from day one and 7 years later nothing has changed (apart from the stint of Dutch influence that we threw away at the first opportunity and replaced with more UK footballing)

It's odd that nobody wishes to address this.


Lots of people have addressed it, you just don't like what they've said. TFC spent zero money on scouting and used the contacts of the people they hired. And they really didn't put much thought into who they hired (again, Mo was a cheap choice, already under contract to MLS).

The only thing going on here is a corporation that was looking to make easy money - and for 4-5 years did exactly that. There's no love of soccer at MLSE, this could have been a women's softball team (no offense to women's sofball which would likely have been more entertaining than many teams TFC put on the field).

If an ex-Italian (or Portugese or German or whatever) player had come to MLS when Mo did and then got fired six games into his coaching career and still been under contract MLSE would have hired him.

TFC07
12-01-2013, 12:16 PM
I'm not blaming Canadian players. Players don't sign themselves. The front office made an overcommitment to Canadian content. All you other points are valid but we're talking within the context of nationality. I'm not sure how my statement is stupid, unless you assumed players inability are their own fault instead of club signing them.

There has been 35 Canadian players that have played for TFC. I can only count 5 players that would start for another MLS team. Even some of those, are suspect. Nana, Osorio, Serioux, De Guzman, De Rosario, and Brennan. Its an indictment of the front office that we've cycled through that many players with very little quality.



Nana Attakora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nana_Attakora)


Kyle Bekker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyle_Bekker)


Adam Braz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Braz)


Jim Brennan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Brennan)


Miguel Cańizalez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Ca%C3%B1izalez)


Adrian Cann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Cann)


Oscar Cordon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Cordon)


Julian de Guzman [a]


Dwayne De Rosario (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario)


Srdjan Djekanovic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srdjan_Djekanovic)


Terry Dunfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Dunfield)


Gabe Gala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabe_Gala)


Derek Gaudet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Gaudet)


Ali Gerba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Gerba)


Kevin Harmse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Harmse)


Tyler Hemming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Hemming)


Doneil Henry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doneil_Henry)


Diaz Kambere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaz_Kambere)


Nicholas Lindsay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Lindsay)


Andrea Lombardo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Lombardo)


Keith Makubuya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Makubuya)


Allando Matheson (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Allando_Matheson&action=edit&redlink=1)


Joey Melo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Melo)


David Monsalve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Monsalve)


Ashtone Morgan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtone_Morgan)


Jonathan Osorio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Osorio)


Chris Pozniak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Pozniak)


Marco Reda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Reda)


Tyler Rosenlund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Rosenlund)


Adrian Serioux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Serioux)


Kenny Stamatopoulos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Stamatopoulos)


Matt Stinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Stinson)


Greg Sutton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Sutton_%28soccer%29)


Emery Welshman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emery_Welshman)


Gianluca Zavarise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianluca_Zavarise)




I don't get your point? More than half players on your list are youth players who don't cost much on salary cap. These guys were filled end of the roster, but due to our first team inability to perform, TFC had to throw these young Canadian players into fire. There's nothing wrong with signing Canadian players (especially younger players with upside) to fill rest of your roster. So playing who can't start for rest of league card is useless since there's not a lot of young players starting for other teams in the league (I believe TFC is one of youngest teams in the league).

If you look at current Canadian players, how can you say these guys are blamed for TFC failure? TFC failure has to do with signing good first team players in general. It's not like American or International players on TFC were any better in the past.

PopePouri
12-01-2013, 12:16 PM
I count 25 out of 34 signed before the roster changes for required Canadian players in 2011.

DigzTFC!
12-01-2013, 12:17 PM
Control my passion??? someone else says I am ranting. Other then yohan annoying me, I am not angry at all, about the issue, I have just voiced my view of what the feelings are in the Italian football community. I am neither angry nor offended.

Nor did I call the club racist.

I quoted you saying the TFC supporters are anti-italian which is a painting an entire group with one brush and then you continued to take that brush to Canada supporters in general. I provided proof that sentiment isn't prevalent at the CSA, which is an elected group, which would assume that it is not anti-Italian, and Dino Rossi who pushed through an game changing initiative through a bureaucratic mess.

The club not having Italian players is one thing, but then turning on the supporters for that fact is another and logically flawed.

DigzTFC!
12-01-2013, 12:37 PM
I don't get your point? More than half players on your list are youth players who don't cost much on salary cap. These guys were filled end of the roster, but due to our first team inability to perform, TFC had to throw these young Canadian players into fire. There's nothing wrong with signing Canadian players (especially younger players with upside) to fill rest of your roster. So playing who can't start for rest of league card is useless since there's not a lot of young players starting for other teams in the league (I believe TFC is one of youngest teams in the league).

If you look at current Canadian players, how can you say these guys are blamed for TFC failure? TFC failure has to do with signing good first team players in general. It's not like American or International players on TFC were any better in the past.

I don't know how to make this clearer. I'm not blaming the players. I am blaming the club for putting them in that position. And I agree it's okay to sign players with upside. TFC didn't with the exception of maybe Stinson. These kids weren't ready and TFC development model wasn't going to provide the progress necessary to contribute to the first team. That is another issue with club entirely.

As for the "can't start for other clubs" card, most of those players aren't academy players 24/35. That's my rough estimate.

Have you noticed that when injuries occur or international happens TFC has very little depth? Well the mindset of starters NOT being pushed by reserve/academy players is also a problem. I'm not against Canadian content. I'm against the roster decisions TFC have made over 7 years that have consisted largely of Canadian content.

Kaz
12-01-2013, 12:44 PM
...
We employ a disproportionate number of players from the UK. We have since the inception of this club. Add to this that we also employ more UK based footballing minds in terms of coaches, trainers and other team staff and the question becomes even bigger.

Some are suggesting that it's because our club doesn't have any kind of plan and this UK bias is just a coincidence and a matter of ineptitude on the clubs part.

That may be part of it but I don't think it's the whole reason.

People need to start admitting that it's a little strange how much UK footballing influence has surrounded this club from day one and then the next thing that needs to be recognized is that the UK footballing model is a terrible choice if what we want is success on the field.

I've said it from day one and 7 years later nothing has changed (apart from the stint of Dutch influence that we threw away at the first opportunity and replaced with more UK footballing)

It's odd that nobody wishes to address this.

According to MLS websites there are 530 players in the league. 60% are from the US and Canada. The other 40% are "foreign".

Of the foreign players (roughly 212), 84 (39% of all foreign players) are from Mexico, Brazil, Columbia, France, Italy, Holland and Argentina. TFC employs 3. Laba and Aparicio from Argentina and Koevermans from Holland.

TFC employs 2.5 % of all the players in MLS from those countries.

Of the foreign players (roughly 212) there are a total of 21 (10% of all foreign players) from England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. TFC employs 4. Eckersley and Russell from England, Caldwell from Scotland and Earnshaw from Wales.

TFC employs 20% of all the players in MLS from the UK.

Why?

Too small a sample size? Maybe.

But there it is in black and white. TFC is not biased AGAINST Italian football or any other footballing culture.

TFC is biased IN FAVOUR of UK footballing culture. Almost always has been. (The Dutch blip being the exception)

Again I ask….why?

Sources:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2013/03/28/major-league-soccer-releases-annual-players-world-map

http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/mls-players-birthplace-2013-jugadores-por-lugar-de-nacimiento-2013

Ok this is a proper argument and I don't disagree to a point. I think Mo was, I think John and Chris may have been. I think Ryan this year as been, as he knew guys from the UK.

I think we are going to see that change.

TFC07
12-01-2013, 12:50 PM
I don't know how to make this clearer. I'm not blaming the players. I am blaming the club for putting them in that position. And I agree it's okay to sign players with upside. TFC didn't with the exception of maybe Stinson. These kids weren't ready and TFC development model wasn't going to provide the progress necessary to contribute to the first team. That is another issue with club entirely.

As for the "can't start for other clubs" card, if they were signing the next Bekker....that's okay. None of those players were that caliber. Have you noticed that when injuries occur or international happens TFC has very little depth? Well the mindset of starters NOT being pushed by reserve/academy players is also a problem. I'm not against Canadian content. I'm against the roster decisions TFC have made over 7 years that have consisted largely of Canadian content.

TFC had sign more International and American players than Canadian players. So why pick on Canadian content alone? Last time I remember, we're a Canadian club that needs to require to have some Canadians on the roster. That's where TFC focusing on Canadian content comes from! Notice how well Canadians played under Winter and now Nelsen? Most of these Canadian players are kids who have great upside to become very solid players in MLS. Henry, Morgan etc. were signed to first team because they had talent and upside to become very solid players in MLS in the long term.

Why not pick on American or International players? Blame MLS for not following international FIFA calendar which is a league problem not TFC problem alone.

DigzTFC!
12-01-2013, 01:20 PM
TFC had sign more International and American players than Canadian players. So why pick on Canadian content alone? Last time I remember, we're a Canadian club that needs to require to have some Canadians on the roster. That's where TFC focusing on Canadian content comes from! Notice how well Canadians played under Winter and now Nelsen? Most of these Canadian players are kids who have great upside to become very solid players in MLS. Henry, Morgan etc. were signed to first team because they had talent and upside to become very solid players in MLS in the long term.

Why not pick on American or International players? Blame MLS for not following international FIFA calendar which is a league problem not TFC problem alone.

I blame TFC for being too Canadian. Believe me, 7 years ago I would have been furious at someone saying that as I am an adamant Canadian fan with 200 years of roots in this country no other allegiances. I look at the greater good of what TFC could do for the national team and fostering a soccer culture in Canada if run properly.

I was happy with TFC doing a Canadian youth movement, trading for Canadians, drafting Canadians higher than need be. I wanted it to be a Canadian club. In hindsight, it impacted their ability to produce. De Guzman was a massive bust, Serioux was crippled when he got here, DeRo was a cancer....IMO. I like what Osorio and Bekker bring but to look at history of TFC with starters like Adam Braz, Marco Reda, Harmse, Sutton, Gerba etc. to me that's bad.

Yes there are other signings from different nations that were under performers. No question. But TFC commitment to being Canadian was prioritized above being competitive. A competitive TFC is better for building soccer in Canada and the national team no matter what the roster nationality makeup is (IMO).

Part of why I appreciate Nelson so much is he took the shots from the media and fans and was still patient with Bekker. Bekker is going to make it. But he might have the same path as a Graham Zusi.

v00d00daddy
12-01-2013, 01:26 PM
Lots of people have addressed it, you just don't like what they've said. TFC spent zero money on scouting and used the contacts of the people they hired. And they really didn't put much thought into who they hired (again, Mo was a cheap choice, already under contract to MLS).

The only thing going on here is a corporation that was looking to make easy money - and for 4-5 years did exactly that. There's no love of soccer at MLSE, this could have been a women's softball team (no offense to women's sofball which would likely have been more entertaining than many teams TFC put on the field).

If an ex-Italian (or Portugese or German or whatever) player had come to MLS when Mo did and then got fired six games into his coaching career and still been under contract MLSE would have hired him.

Mo was fired in Sept. 2010.

It doesn't explain why we now have way fewer players from the best footballing nations on the planet than the rest of the league, and why we have 20% of all the players in the league from the UK.

It also doesn't explain why we scrapped an entirely different way of looking at things and hired a guy (Payne) who said he'd bring in a "latin style" and proceeded to hire a guy who isn't even a coach, but rather a current player from the EPL.

It also doesn't explain why, when Payne started to build that "latin style", he was fired and his "latin" acquisitions pawned off for cat scraps. The club chose Neslen over Payne.

I'm not saying this is ALL due to a bias towards UK footballing but things have been so fucked up at TFC for so long that I can no longer accept that it was just bad luck and not a case of conscious decisions being made with a particular style in mind.

Mo is long gone and it's still happening.

So no, it hasn't been addressed.

Rudi
12-01-2013, 01:39 PM
I blame TFC for being too Canadian.
Remember that for the first four seasons, TFC had a much higher Canadian content quota that it had to meet. It wasn't until the Whitecaps rallied to get that quota lowered that we saw the minimum changed to what it is now (3 Canadians at TFC, Whitecaps, Impact).

Mathew
12-01-2013, 03:11 PM
Lets be serious here. Italy is one of the biggest and most successful football nation in the world and there is only a handful of countries that can hold a candle to Italy, such as Argentina, Germany, Brazil, Uruguay and Spain. Its obvious that having a team which players consist mostly from the UK, US and Canada have been a disaster and will continue to do so until management sign big name players from the biggest football giants. The Epl is on the decline and majority of the players today are foreigners and signing more English players will leave this team in despair for many years to come.

I have no doubt that a player such as Gilardino or Quags would be able to single-handily carry the team on their back and win tournaments. Montreal has had great success with Nesta and Di Vaio, and DI Vaio is not even half the player of Gila or Quags.

There are some members here claiming that, if the Italians can complain, so can the Chinese, Scottish, Indians and Irish. Name one player that is earning over 10 mil that come from these countries... crickets ? Exactly... these countries are not big football nations and simply do not produce quality players, therefor we have every F right to complain since Italy is among the biggest football nations in the world.

Bring on the big name Argentines, Brazilians, Italians, and Spaniards and i will be the first to buy a TFC jersey. Toronto is the largest multi-cultural city in the world, and TFC should represent it.

Richard
12-01-2013, 03:25 PM
Lets be serious here. Italy is one of the biggest and most successful football nation in the world and there is only a handful of countries that can hold a candle to Italy, such as Argentina, Germany, Brazil, Uruguay and Spain. Its obvious that having a team which players consist mostly from the UK, US and Canada have been a disaster and will continue to do so until management sign big name players from the biggest football giants. The Epl is on the decline and majority of the players today are foreigners and signing more English players will leave this team in despair for many years to come.

I have no doubt that a player such as Gilardino or Quags would be able to single-handily carry the team on their back and win tournaments. Montreal has had great success with Nesta and Di Vaio, and DI Vaio is not even half the player of Gila or Quags.

There are some members here claiming that, if the Italians can complain, so can the Chinese, Scottish, Indians and Irish. Name one player that is earning over 10 mil that come from these countries... crickets ? Exactly... these countries are not big football nations and simply do not produce quality players, therefor we have every F right to complain since Italy is among the biggest football nations in the world.

Bring on the big name Argentines, Brazilians, Italians, and Spaniards and i will be the first to buy a TFC jersey. Toronto is the largest multi-cultural city in the world, and TFC should represent it.


Do you really mean that? Your entire post suggests otherwise.

Here we go again with the Itlaian and some cherry picked nations being the only countries we should look at. Fuck off with this shit.

Beach_Red
12-01-2013, 03:46 PM
Mo was fired in Sept. 2010.

It doesn't explain why we now have way fewer players from the best footballing nations on the planet than the rest of the league, and why we have 20% of all the players in the league from the UK.

It also doesn't explain why we scrapped an entirely different way of looking at things and hired a guy (Payne) who said he'd bring in a "latin style" and proceeded to hire a guy who isn't even a coach, but rather a current player from the EPL.

It also doesn't explain why, when Payne started to build that "latin style", he was fired and his "latin" acquisitions pawned off for cat scraps. The club chose Neslen over Payne.

I'm not saying this is ALL due to a bias towards UK footballing but things have been so fucked up at TFC for so long that I can no longer accept that it was just bad luck and not a case of conscious decisions being made with a particular style in mind.

Mo is long gone and it's still happening.

So no, it hasn't been addressed.

It's just uninterested, poor management. Maybe it manifests in what looks like a bias but really what it is is understaffing (no scouts) and taking the easy way. In a way you could say that the Impact's signing of Italian players is also taking the easy way, Saputo dealing with people he knows.

The problem here is that the management has always been lousy. The senior management here has never cared at all about a style of football. No more than a McDonalds franchise owner cares what's on the menu. People were hired because they were cheapo and available.

SoccMan2
12-01-2013, 03:51 PM
I'm glad that this is being talked about here because things have been exposed here that were always there but was never really looked at and broken down. I love the stats that were posted in one earlier message where it showed that this organization when you include players, coaches, trainers and even the equipment guy has such a UK flavour compared to the other clubs in the MLS. The strange thing about it is that soccer is such a global game where we have access to so many coaches , players and trainers from all over the world, but one part of the world has dominated with this organization for whatever reason so far. Now is that why we have been crap for 7 seasons so far? Probably it plays a very very small part to it. However, it does lead people to think it might be part of it and even though I don't totally agree I can see why someone would think it might.

PopePouri
12-01-2013, 04:56 PM
Remember that for the first four seasons, TFC had a much higher Canadian content quota that it had to meet. It wasn't until the Whitecaps rallied to get that quota lowered that we saw the minimum changed to what it is now (3 Canadians at TFC, Whitecaps, Impact).

Yeah people forget that, don't they?

DigzTFC!
12-01-2013, 05:48 PM
Remember that for the first four seasons, TFC had a much higher Canadian content quota that it had to meet. It wasn't until the Whitecaps rallied to get that quota lowered that we saw the minimum changed to what it is now (3 Canadians at TFC, Whitecaps, Impact).

That's a very good point that I overlooked. It was a minimum of 8 Canadians prior to 2011 for TFC. Yeesh. :canada:

burlington Red
12-01-2013, 06:54 PM
The UK influence part of TFC comes the from fact Canada is part of the Commonwealth, society in general here has a much more UK influence than any American city. Let's not forget Vancouver had a Scottish boss, an English mid in Reo Coker and Scottish striker in Miller.

Kaz
12-01-2013, 08:03 PM
Mo was fired in Sept. 2010.

It doesn't explain why we now have way fewer players from the best footballing nations on the planet than the rest of the league, and why we have 20% of all the players in the league from the UK.

It also doesn't explain why we scrapped an entirely different way of looking at things and hired a guy (Payne) who said he'd bring in a "latin style" and proceeded to hire a guy who isn't even a coach, but rather a current player from the EPL.

It also doesn't explain why, when Payne started to build that "latin style", he was fired and his "latin" acquisitions pawned off for cat scraps. The club chose Neslen over Payne.

I'm not saying this is ALL due to a bias towards UK footballing but things have been so fucked up at TFC for so long that I can no longer accept that it was just bad luck and not a case of conscious decisions being made with a particular style in mind.

Mo is long gone and it's still happening.

So no, it hasn't been addressed.

Mariner... kept pushing the same types of players that Mo did. And Winter brought in a bunch of bust players.

This is the problem that we are going to see fixed.

second we should be developing Canadians talent. All three MLS teams should be working locally more to make sure players are being developed.

tfcleeds
12-01-2013, 08:15 PM
It's just uninterested, poor management. Maybe it manifests in what looks like a bias but really what it is is understaffing (no scouts) and taking the easy way. In a way you could say that the Impact's signing of Italian players is also taking the easy way, Saputo dealing with people he knows.

The problem here is that the management has always been lousy. The senior management here has never cared at all about a style of football. No more than a McDonalds franchise owner cares what's on the menu. People were hired because they were cheapo and available.

Bingo. TFC "went Dutch" not because it was interested in that philosophy at all, but because Klinsmann suggested Winter (and even then, I don't think Klinsmann necessarily suggested Winter per se, he was one of several names on a shortlist). Anselmi was utterly clueless. If Klinsmann had told him to hire someone from Iceland, Anselmi would have done that. There was never any conscious decision to adopt any particular philosophy on MLSE's part.

Mathew
12-01-2013, 08:19 PM
TFC is already looking at the 2 players i mentioned you [mod edit]



Do you really mean that? Your entire post suggests otherwise.

Here we go again with the Itlaian and some cherry picked nations being the only countries we should look at. Fuck off with this shit.

Wagner
12-01-2013, 08:34 PM
Dudes, calm down. Keep it civil. Personal insults won't be tolerated.

zeelaw
12-01-2013, 09:50 PM
I have no doubt that a player such as Gilardino or Quags would be able to single-handily carry the team on their back and win tournaments.

:facepalm:

trane
12-01-2013, 10:09 PM
People identifying as Italian decent make up 3.8 percent of the Population of the GTA. 2.5% of the Population of Ontario. 1 player at any given time would be representative of Italians, currently I believe that about 2% of all players have been of Italian background.

My position on this is known, and I find it interesting I'm not the only one that sees the opinions of several people here the same way. This isn't Niagara Falls where 20% of the population is Italian and historically that number has been higher. It's not even the Niagara Region where 10% of the Population is Italian. This is a team based in the GTA, produce a style of football that plays in the MLS.

As has been said here Italian Football is insular and often times is a little different from the rest of Europe. Has anyone thought maybe that is why MLS as a whole has so few Italian players? That the style is different so they don't look at them? We don't have a lot of Asian players either yet 8% of the GTA is made of up Chinese (combined) If anyone has the right to complain it would likely be them.

First generation Italian immigrant (people like me born in Italy) are just under 500,000 in the GTA so how do you figure that it is 3.8 of a city that is about 4 million? For the whole of Ontario people on Italian decent is just under 900000, in a province of about 11 million, so again how do you figure. Were the hell are people getting their numbers?

Alonso
12-01-2013, 10:12 PM
I'm glad that this is being talked about here because things have been exposed here that were always there but was never really looked at and broken down. I love the stats that were posted in one earlier message where it showed that this organization when you include players, coaches, trainers and even the equipment guy has such a UK flavour compared to the other clubs in the MLS. The strange thing about it is that soccer is such a global game where we have access to so many coaches , players and trainers from all over the world, but one part of the world has dominated with this organization for whatever reason so far. Now is that why we have been crap for 7 seasons so far? Probably it plays a very very small part to it. However, it does lead people to think it might be part of it and even though I don't totally agree I can see why someone would think it might.


I don think its some grand conspiracy.

Yes this is a multicultural city, but don't lose sight of the fact that we are a former British colony. That more than 1.5 million people in this city identify themselves as English, Scottish, or Irish. And that the Queen of England is your head of state. You know, the person on the back of every single piece of Canadian currency, the one that all newly nationalised people claim allegiance to.

It seems logical enough to me that the team has looked in that direction. I wish the team would have focused more on central America, but I'm not dumbfounded by where they have been looking.

Personally, I think the team is moving in the right direction and that we will have more players from throughout the Americas brought in since that is the most logical place to look for cheaper good quality talent rather than to Europe. As the cap increases looking to Europe for our 'plumbers' will start to make more sense.

For now, I dearly hope that we sign Gilardino and Defoe and that hopefully some of this will be put to bed.

trane
12-01-2013, 10:14 PM
I quoted you saying the TFC supporters are anti-italian which is a painting an entire group with one brush and then you continued to take that brush to Canada supporters in general. I provided proof that sentiment isn't prevalent at the CSA, which is an elected group, which would assume that it is not anti-Italian, and Dino Rossi who pushed through an game changing initiative through a bureaucratic mess.

The club not having Italian players is one thing, but then turning on the supporters for that fact is another and logically flawed.

I come to my conclusions from the reactions to any time a discussion like this comes about. There is no logical flaw, it is what I observe

(By the way we are talking about anti-Italian football)

trane
12-01-2013, 10:20 PM
Yeah, I've watched some. The defending and goalkeeping reminds me of South America or the UAE; pretty horrendous sometimes. Maybe it's telling no one has picked him up yet, but i tend to think it's because he was playing at lower levels; he's carried his team to promotion two straight seasons, from Div. 3 to the Superleague.

He's definitely a step above that league. He has a very quick release and gets a lot on target but I notice his senior team goal stats aren't nearly as impressive as for China's U20s (where he scored more than a goal a game). He might well make a splash here, or like Brockie might find it just that much tougher (although I actually think Brockie would do well playing as a wing forward in MLS).

In terms of draw, FH, just look at Jeremy Lin and Yao Ming in the NBA; I mean, I know it has more global draw than MLS, but like you say, once the word got out...

You got my curios I am going to try to check him out.

Alonso
12-01-2013, 10:24 PM
First generation Italian immigrant (people like me born in Italy) are just under 500,000 in the GTA so how do you figure that it is 3.8 of a city that is about 4 million? For the whole of Ontario people on Italian decent is just under 900000, in a province of about 11 million, so again how do you figure. Were the hell are people getting their numbers?


All the people who identify themselves as coming from Italian heritage in the GTA total around 500,000.

That is first, second, third, etc generation all included who claim Italian heritage in the 2011 Canadian census.

These are official Canadian government census numbers. Which is about as solid as statistics come on the matter.

Please feel free to have a look for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto

I am sure Vaughn and Woodbridge are included in these numbers as they are considered GTA.

In 1996 Italians made up 9.8% of GTA which is now down to 8.6% and probably will continue to fall as most immigration is now non-Italian.

Alonso
12-01-2013, 10:27 PM
Top 20 Ethnic Origins in the Toronto
CMA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_Metropolitan_Area) (2011;[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto#cite_note-33)Total Responses)
Population
%
2006
Population
%
2001[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto#cite_note-34)
Population
%
1996[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto#cite_note-35)
Population
%


English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England)
777,110
14.1
English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England)
804,100
15.9
Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian)
861,945
18.5
English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England)
891,735
21.1


Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian)
728,745
13.2
Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian)
651,635
12.8
English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England)
783,770
16.9
Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian)
710,755
16.8


Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China)
594,735
10.8
Scottish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland)
561,050
11.1
Scottish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland)
517,115
11.1
Scottish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland)
534,595
12.6


East Indian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India)
572,250
10.4
Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China)
537,060
10.6
Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland)
487,215
10.4
Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland)
480,980
11.4


Scottish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland)
545,365
9.9
Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland)
531,865
10.5
Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China)
435,685
9.4
Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy)
414,310
9.8


Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland)
543,600
9.8
East Indian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India)
484,655
9.6
Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy)
429,385
9.2
Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China)
359,450
8.5


Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy)
475,090
8.6
Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy)
466,155
9.2
East Indian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India)
345,855
7.4
East Indian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India)
255,685
6.0


German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)
262,830
4.8
German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)
259,015
5.1
French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France)
220,535
4.7
French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France)
236,315
5.6


French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France)
249,375
4.5
French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France)
241,395
4.8
German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)
220,140
4.7
German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)
224,525
5.3


Filipino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines)
246,345
4.5
Polish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland)
207,495
4.1
Portuguese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal)
171,545
3.7
Portuguese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal)
161,685
3.8


Polish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland)
214,455
3.9
Portuguese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal)
188,110
3.7
Polish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland)
166,695
3.6
Polish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland)
161,005
3.8


Portuguese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal)
196,975
3.6
Filipino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines)
181,330
3.6
Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish)
161,215
3.5
Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish)
156,300
3.7


Jamaican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican)
177,305
3.2
Jamaican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican)
160,205
3.2
Jamaican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican)
150,840
3.2
Jamaican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican)
133,690
3.2


Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish)
137,165
2.5
Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish)
141,685
2.8
Filipino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines)
140,405
3.0
Filipino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines)
102,525
2.4


Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine)
130,350
2.4
Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine)
122,510
2.4
Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine)
104,485
2.2
Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine)
95,500
2.3


Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia)
118,090
2.1
Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia)
102,815
2.0
Dutch (Netherlands) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands)
85,860
1.8
Dutch (Netherlands) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands)
85,250
2.0


Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain)
105,740
1.9
Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain)
97,255
1.9
Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)
85,375
1.8
Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)
80,330
1.9


Sri Lankan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lanka)
104,980
1.9
Dutch (Netherlands) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands)
95,560
1.9
Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain)
65,600
1.4
Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain)
62,520
1.5


British Isles origins (other)
104,070
1.9
Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)
90,585
1.8
Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia)
62,540
1.3
Hungarian (Magyar) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_people)
44,160
1.1


Dutch (Netherlands) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands)
98,925
1.8
Sri Lankan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lanka)
80,610
1.6
Hungarian (Magyar) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_people)
46,790
1.0
Welsh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales)
44,015
1.0


Total population
5,521,235
100
Total population
5,072,075
100
Total population
4,647,955
100
Total population
4,232,905
100




In case you missed it the last time I posted it.

Alonso
12-01-2013, 10:44 PM
I did some more digging and the above census data includes Durham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Municipality_of_Durham), Halton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Municipality_of_Halton), Peel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Municipality_of_Peel), and York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Municipality_of_York) regions.

So Vaughn, Richmond Hill, Brampton, Mississauga, etc... are all included.

trane
12-01-2013, 11:08 PM
All the people who identify themselves as coming from Italian heritage in the GTA total around 500,000.

That is first, second, third, etc generation all included who claim Italian heritage in the 2011 Canadian census.

These are official Canadian government census numbers. Which is about as solid as statistics come on the matter.

Please feel free to have a look for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto

I am sure Vaughn and Woodbridge are included in these numbers as they are considered GTA.

In 1996 Italians made up 9.8% of GTA which is now down to 8.6% and probably will continue to fall as most immigration is now non-Italian.

First the post I was responding too said 3.8. So he was clearly wrong.

Second, you are wrong Vaughan/woodbridge is not part of the GTA for the purpose of the census, it is only the political GTA which is included (Were Ford is mayor). ( it is called the demographics of Toronto not of Toronto and neighboring cities).Therefore you are missing some 200,000 Italians. The 9.8 (600,000) to 8.6 (475,000) is mainly due to this, and the fact my countrymen are getting older and dying. However, to do not worry there is a new wave of immigration thanks to the recession.

Third you state that the 500,000 is all people of Italian decent, I have a very hard time squaring that with what I know and see, and if you are honest with yourself and are familiar with all of Toronto, you will know that it is a hard number to square. For me the problem with the number is that I have always read in various sources, that there are 600,000 people born in Italy/Italian citizens in Toronto, making this the largest Italian city outside of Italy. So what happened all these Italians came here but they did not procreate?? I doubt it. I am sure that a very large part of those who identify themselves as Canadian in that sensuous are of Italian origin.

By the way despite the two decades of very low Italian immigration, which is now changing, the other groups have hardly surpassed us by significant margins.

( I just read about the mother tongue stats if Italian it truly is 3.5 of the Toronto population, then may be my countrymen have been dying off at a large clip then I would like)

Alonso
12-01-2013, 11:09 PM
I thought this was somewhat interesting.

If you look at Ontario as a whole, German and French numbers move up the ranking significantly with Chinese and East Indian coming down significantly with Polish and Dutch coming up to rival their numbers.








Ethnic group
Responses
%


Total population
12,028,895
100


English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Canadian)
2,971,360
24.7


Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada)
2,768,870
23.0


Scottish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Canadian)
2,101,100
17.5


Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Canadian)
1,988,940
16.5


French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Canadian)
1,351,600
11.2


German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_German_ethnicity)
1,144,560
9.5


Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Canadians)
867,980
7.2


Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Canadian)
644,465
5.4


East Indian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Canadians)
573,250
4.8


Dutch (Netherlands) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Dutch_descent)
490,995
4.1


Polish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Canadians)
465,560
3.9


Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Canadian)
336,355
2.8


North American Indian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations)
317,890
2.6


Portuguese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Canadians)
282,870
2.4


Filipino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_Canadian)
215,750
1.8


British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_people), not included
elsewhere
205,755
1.7


Jamaican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_Canadian)
197,540
1.6


Welsh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Welsh_descent)
182,825
1.5


Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Canada)
177,255
1.5


Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Canada)
167,365
1.4


Hungarian (Magyar) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Hungarian_ancestry)
151,750
1.3


Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Spanish_descent)
149,160
1.2


Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Canadians)
132,440
1.1


American (USA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_American_origin)
113,050
0.9


Pakistani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_people)
91,160
0.8


Métis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9tis_people_(Canada))
87,090
0.7


Sri Lankan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_people)
85,935
0.7


Vietnamese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_Canadian)
83,330
0.7


Romanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_people)
80,710
0.7


African (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_people), not included elsewhere
75,500
0.6


Finnish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Finnish_ancestry)
72,990
0.6


Korean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_people)
72,065
0.6


Croatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Croatian_ancestry)
71,380
0.6


Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian-Canadian)
70,590
0.6

Kaz
12-01-2013, 11:09 PM
My bad I was looking at mother tongue data.. which is closer to actual first generation.

Still more then 90% of the population isn't Italian.

Italians have to understand that the world doesn't resolve around them.

There is no anti-Italian bias. The issue is that a portion of the Italian Community like many other insular anti-multicultural groups in the GTA have an issue with Canada. It is that simple. It's why the city of Brampton with 500,000 people had a hockey team move to a city with 50,000 people.

trane
12-01-2013, 11:19 PM
I thought this was somewhat interesting.

If you look at Ontario as a whole, German and French numbers move up the ranking significantly with Chinese and East Indian coming down significantly with Polish and Dutch coming up to rival their numbers.








Ethnic group
Responses
%


Total population
12,028,895
100


English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Canadian)
2,971,360
24.7


Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada)
2,768,870
23.0


Scottish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Canadian)
2,101,100
17.5


Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Canadian)
1,988,940
16.5


French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Canadian)
1,351,600
11.2


German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_German_ethnicity)
1,144,560
9.5


Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Canadians)
867,980
7.2


Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Canadian)
644,465
5.4


East Indian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Canadians)
573,250
4.8


Dutch (Netherlands) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Dutch_descent)
490,995
4.1


Polish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Canadians)
465,560
3.9


Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Canadian)
336,355
2.8


North American Indian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations)
317,890
2.6


Portuguese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Canadians)
282,870
2.4


Filipino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_Canadian)
215,750
1.8


British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_people), not included
elsewhere
205,755
1.7


Jamaican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_Canadian)
197,540
1.6


Welsh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Welsh_descent)
182,825
1.5


Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Canada)
177,255
1.5


Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Canada)
167,365
1.4


Hungarian (Magyar) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Hungarian_ancestry)
151,750
1.3


Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Spanish_descent)
149,160
1.2


Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Canadians)
132,440
1.1


American (USA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_American_origin)
113,050
0.9


Pakistani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_people)
91,160
0.8


Métis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9tis_people_(Canada))
87,090
0.7


Sri Lankan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_people)
85,935
0.7


Vietnamese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_Canadian)
83,330
0.7


Romanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_people)
80,710
0.7


African (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_people), not included elsewhere
75,500
0.6


Finnish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Finnish_ancestry)
72,990
0.6


Korean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_people)
72,065
0.6


Croatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Croatian_ancestry)
71,380
0.6


Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian-Canadian)
70,590
0.6






With Irish, British, German, French, Scotish you are talking about a much older immigration.

lobo
12-01-2013, 11:21 PM
Bingo. TFC "went Dutch" not because it was interested in that philosophy at all, but because Klinsmann suggested Winter (and even then, I don't think Klinsmann necessarily suggested Winter per se, he was one of several names on a shortlist). Anselmi was utterly clueless. If Klinsmann had told him to hire someone from Iceland, Anselmi would have done that. There was never any conscious decision to adopt any particular philosophy on MLSE's part.

right on leeds. i suggest any national preference, let alone any specific model approach, chosen by TFC is giving way too much credit to TFC mgmt ... they're not that deep.

Alonso
12-01-2013, 11:21 PM
First the post I was responding too said 3.8. So he was clearly wrong.

Second, you are wrong Vaughan/woodbridge is not part of the GTA for the purpose of the census, it is only the political GTA which is included (Were Ford is mayor). ( it is called the demographics of Toronto not of Toronto and neighboring cities).Therefore you are missing some 200,000 Italians. The 9.8 (600,000) to 8.6 (475,000) is mainly due to this, and the fact my countrymen are getting older and dying. However, to do not worry there is a new wave of immigration thanks to the recession.

Third you state that the 500,000 is all people of Italian decent, I have a very hard time squaring that with what I know and see, and if you are honest with yourself and are familiar with all of Toronto, you will know that it is a hard number to square. For me the problem with the number is that I have always read in various sources, that there are 600,000 people born in Italy/Italian citizens in Toronto, making this the largest Italian city outside of Italy. So what happened all these Italians came here but they did not procreate?? I doubt it. I am sure that a very large part of those who identify themselves as Canadian in that sensuous are of Italian origin.

By the way despite the two decades of very low Italian immigration, which is now changing, the other groups have hardly surpassed us by significant margins.


No you are wrong, the chart I posted is the Toronto CMA (Census Metropolitan Area) which includes Durham, York, Halton and Peel regions.

Also it is very clear that it is made up of respondents who claim these heritages, meaning second and third generations as well.

Here is the stats-can page that the data comes from:http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/dp-pd/prof/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CMA&Code1=535&Data=Count&SearchText=toronto&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&A1=Ethnic%20origin&B1=All&Custom=&TABID=1

Here is the download map for the region that is considered Toronto CMA: www.pmb.ca/public/e/resource/stats_can_ (http://www.pmb.ca/public/e/resource/stats_can_)cma.pdf‎ Which is as I described above and includes Durham, York, Halton and Peel regions.

Again, it's all laid out here and indisputable, despite what you may or may not believe.


EDIT : PDF link above doesn't seem to be working, maybe this one will:

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDMQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pmb.ca%2Fpublic%2Fe%2Fresourc e%2Fstats_can_cma.pdf&ei=IwmcUt6PPNXdoASU4IIo&usg=AFQjCNF-DSHX7t4uknvWOc4P1G7T_brPlw&sig2=zEcPvMgnWs4laKJq-glpew&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU


http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/images/maps/CMACA_RMRAR/E_A/jpg/760_570/535.jpg

TFC07
12-01-2013, 11:37 PM
I thought this was somewhat interesting.

If you look at Ontario as a whole, German and French numbers move up the ranking significantly with Chinese and East Indian coming down significantly with Polish and Dutch coming up to rival their numbers.








Ethnic group
Responses
%


Total population
12,028,895
100


English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Canadian)
2,971,360
24.7


Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada)
2,768,870
23.0


Scottish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Canadian)
2,101,100
17.5


Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Canadian)
1,988,940
16.5


French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Canadian)
1,351,600
11.2


German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_German_ethnicity)
1,144,560
9.5


Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Canadians)
867,980
7.2


Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Canadian)
644,465
5.4


East Indian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Canadians)
573,250
4.8


Dutch (Netherlands) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Dutch_descent)
490,995
4.1


Polish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Canadians)
465,560
3.9


Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Canadian)
336,355
2.8


North American Indian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations)
317,890
2.6


Portuguese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Canadians)
282,870
2.4


Filipino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_Canadian)
215,750
1.8


British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_people), not included
elsewhere
205,755
1.7


Jamaican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_Canadian)
197,540
1.6


Welsh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Welsh_descent)
182,825
1.5


Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Canada)
177,255
1.5


Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Canada)
167,365
1.4


Hungarian (Magyar) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Hungarian_ancestry)
151,750
1.3


Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Spanish_descent)
149,160
1.2


Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Canadians)
132,440
1.1


American (USA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_American_origin)
113,050
0.9


Pakistani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_people)
91,160
0.8


Métis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9tis_people_(Canada))
87,090
0.7


Sri Lankan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_people)
85,935
0.7


Vietnamese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_Canadian)
83,330
0.7


Romanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_people)
80,710
0.7


African (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_people), not included elsewhere
75,500
0.6


Finnish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Finnish_ancestry)
72,990
0.6


Korean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_people)
72,065
0.6


Croatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_of_Croatian_ancestry)
71,380
0.6


Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian-Canadian)
70,590
0.6





Are these recent numbers (2011 numbers or 2006 numbers)?

Alonso
12-01-2013, 11:44 PM
Are these recent numbers (2011 numbers or 2006 numbers)?

No this Ontario chart is from 1996 Census.

1996: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/c1996-r1996/4129975-eng.htm


EDIT: The link for the Ontario (as a whole) chart to the statscan page isn't right.... the above link doesn't seem to have anything to do with that chart so not sure.

jloome
12-02-2013, 12:49 AM
You got my curios I am going to try to check him out.

Here's another one. This guy is 22 and plays for the Iraq national team; he plays in the Iraq domestic league but has also scored regularly against Asian international competition. He has 101 goals in 142 appearances.I don't care how small the local league is; when soccer is the dominant local sport and a kid is scoring like that, he deserves a look.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amjad_Radhi
http://ca.soccerway.com/players/amjad-radhi--yousuf-al-janabi/210856/

v00d00daddy
12-02-2013, 06:40 AM
This is bizarre. Now some of you guys are using census numbers to justify why TFC is UK based?

Come on people. If TFC is justified in choosing its FOOTBALLING style based on census numbers we're truly fucked. We're talking about football here.

The rest of the league doesn't seem to subscribe to this line of thinking…why should we?

Fort York Redcoat
12-02-2013, 07:17 AM
Lets be serious here. Italy is one of the biggest and most successful football nation in the world and there is only a handful of countries that can hold a candle to Italy, such as Argentina, Germany, Brazil, Uruguay and Spain. Its obvious that having a team which players consist mostly from the UK, US and Canada have been a disaster and will continue to do so until management sign big name players from the biggest football giants. The Epl is on the decline and majority of the players today are foreigners and signing more English players will leave this team in despair for many years to come.

I have no doubt that a player such as Gilardino or Quags would be able to single-handily carry the team on their back and win tournaments. Montreal has had great success with Nesta and Di Vaio, and DI Vaio is not even half the player of Gila or Quags.

There are some members here claiming that, if the Italians can complain, so can the Chinese, Scottish, Indians and Irish. Name one player that is earning over 10 mil that come from these countries... crickets ? Exactly... these countries are not big football nations and simply do not produce quality players, therefor we have every F right to complain since Italy is among the biggest football nations in the world.

Bring on the big name Argentines, Brazilians, Italians, and Spaniards and i will be the first to buy a TFC jersey. Toronto is the largest multi-cultural city in the world, and TFC should represent it.

I'll be serious. Now buy your Rey jersey. Not big enough? Oh let me know when...

trane
12-02-2013, 07:28 AM
No you are wrong, the chart I posted is the Toronto CMA (Census Metropolitan Area) which includes Durham, York, Halton and Peel regions.

Also it is very clear that it is made up of respondents who claim these heritages, meaning second and third generations as well.

Here is the stats-can page that the data comes from:http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/dp-pd/prof/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CMA&Code1=535&Data=Count&SearchText=toronto&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&A1=Ethnic%20origin&B1=All&Custom=&TABID=1

Here is the download map for the region that is considered Toronto CMA: www.pmb.ca/public/e/resource/stats_can_ (http://www.pmb.ca/public/e/resource/stats_can_)cma.pdf‎ Which is as I described above and includes Durham, York, Halton and Peel regions.

Again, it's all laid out here and indisputable, despite what you may or may not believe.


EDIT : PDF link above doesn't seem to be working, maybe this one will:

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDMQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pmb.ca%2Fpublic%2Fe%2Fresourc e%2Fstats_can_cma.pdf&ei=IwmcUt6PPNXdoASU4IIo&usg=AFQjCNF-DSHX7t4uknvWOc4P1G7T_brPlw&sig2=zEcPvMgnWs4laKJq-glpew&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU


http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/images/maps/CMACA_RMRAR/E_A/jpg/760_570/535.jpg

You spoke of the GTA not the CMA Toronto, in all of your previous post. So it is your mistake not mine.

Further, any census, were people self identify is hardly indisputable. I could say that I am Canadian, because I am, that tells you nothing about my true ethnic background. Which leads us to 700000 people who identify themselves as Canadian , this would include people of all ethnic backgrounds, as Canadian is not an ethnic background but a nationality wich includes all kinds of ethnic backgrounds.

Lastly, and most importantly whats the point? So because, if the census in fact captures the correct number of Italians in Ontario, we are "only" 8.6 of not the GTA but the CMA, and 7.5 of Ontario, we have to support TFC despite of the fact that we do not like it??? Why??? Again tfc does not have to do anything, but we also do not have to support.

And please do not claim that I lied when I pledged loyalty to the queen, because I prefer Serie A to the EPL.

trane
12-02-2013, 07:39 AM
Now that I have seen the census, of the CMA Toronto, I have decided, I will not longer follow Serie A, no longer support AC Milan, I will also stop speaking Italian ever. Maybe I will change my name to Mark Smith, to make the transformation complete.

Only TFC and MLS for me. Thanks Alonso, I am a changed man, next time I do the census, there will be one less Italian one more Canadian.

Problem solved.

Fort York Redcoat
12-02-2013, 07:42 AM
Now that I have seen the census, of the CMA Toronto, I have decided, I will not longer follow Serie A, no longer support AC Milan, I will also stop speaking Italian ever. Maybe I will change my name to Mark Smith, to make the transformation complete.

Only TFC and MLS for me. Thanks Alonso, I am a changed man, next time I do the census, there will be one less Italian one more Canadian.


Wow. All because he found less (or more? I can't really see the problem) Italian Canadians than you in the area?

trane
12-02-2013, 07:49 AM
Wow. All because he found less (or more? I can't really see the problem) Italian Canadians than you in the area?


Yes. Clearly if there is only 8.6 Italians in the CMA, not the GTA, then we should not support Serie A. We should join the collective. I think that was the point, there is less of you then you think so shut up and follow the mainstream.

Fort York Redcoat
12-02-2013, 07:55 AM
Yes. Clearly if there is only 8.6 Italians in the CMA, not the GTA, then we should not support Serie A. We should join the collective. I think that was the point, there is less of you then you think so shut up and follow the mainstream.

Alonso backed up his point with numbers.

Your point is that it doesn't matter much since the number is still large as is the influence on that number.

Feel free to expand on that sans Sarcasm.

trane
12-02-2013, 07:57 AM
Here's another one. This guy is 22 and plays for the Iraq national team; he plays in the Iraq domestic league but has also scored regularly against Asian international competition. He has 101 goals in 142 appearances.I don't care how small the local league is; when soccer is the dominant local sport and a kid is scoring like that, he deserves a look.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amjad_Radhi
http://ca.soccerway.com/players/amjad-radhi--yousuf-al-janabi/210856/

I am all for scouting all untapped markets. It could help us on the pitch and make us money.

trane
12-02-2013, 08:05 AM
Alonso backed up his point with numbers.

Your point is that it doesn't matter much since the number is still large as is the influence on that number.

Feel free to expand on that sans Sarcasm.

Lets get back to the original point, the large, and no matter whether there are 600,000 or 475000 9.8 or 8.6, the Italian community is large, in Toronto and Ontario, follows football, and does not follow is not attracted to TFC, how does the census, and whether we are 9.8 or 8.6 of the CMA ( not the GTA) change that in anyway? That is the non-sarcastic point.

Again I made a comment after someone posted the article, because the article confirmed what I had been saying was the feeling in the Italian community, that started this seemingly never ending debate.

Beach_Red
12-02-2013, 08:36 AM
Now that I have seen the census, of the CMA Toronto, I have decided, I will not longer follow Serie A, no longer support AC Milan, I will also stop speaking Italian ever. Maybe I will change my name to Mark Smith, to make the transformation complete.

Only TFC and MLS for me. Thanks Alonso, I am a changed man, next time I do the census, there will be one less Italian one more Canadian.

Problem solved.

I guess that's how "Canadian" got to be #2 on the list. Way to go, a few more like you, Mark Smith, and someday Canadian will be #1 in Toronto!


;)

Oldtimer
12-02-2013, 08:45 AM
It is somewhat surprising that no Italians have played for TFC, when we had a number of Italians play for the Toronto Blizzard back in the day. Brazilians have also been under-represented (only Julio Cesar afaik) on TFC. The recent rumour that they have been interested in an Italian shows that the change of regime has resulted in a change of attitude.

That being said, I would prefer a careful selection of the best players ML$E is willing to pay for than selecting just based on ethnicity.

OgtheDim
12-02-2013, 08:47 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/dec/01/premier-league-long-balls-prozone-data


Just to make you all think.

WestStandGeoff
12-02-2013, 09:13 AM
Here's another one. This guy is 22 and plays for the Iraq national team; he plays in the Iraq domestic league but has also scored regularly against Asian international competition. He has 101 goals in 142 appearances.I don't care how small the local league is; when soccer is the dominant local sport and a kid is scoring like that, he deserves a look.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amjad_Radhi
http://ca.soccerway.com/players/amjad-radhi--yousuf-al-janabi/210856/

I have to LOL a bit... someone started this thread to remove the discussion from the transfer rumours/gossip thread as the nationalism conversation was overshadowing the transfer talk. Now you're posting potential transfer targets here, essentially bringing it full circle. Well done!

flamehawk
12-02-2013, 09:18 AM
I have to LOL a bit... someone started this thread to remove the discussion from the transfer rumours/gossip thread as the nationalism conversation was overshadowing the transfer talk. Now you're posting potential transfer targets here, essentially bringing it full circle. Well done!

Haha ya, but I think the point is that another area not being tapped into is Asia and whether obtaining players from that region will attract the many fans that are here in the city.

I think though ideally, the emphasis should be having the academy more representative of the local diversity (and not saying it isn't but I am not too familiar) through building links to the various communities. I know there is a number of gta youth clubs in the Chinese community, though I am not sure if TFC has links with them.

Fort York Redcoat
12-02-2013, 09:21 AM
Lets get back to the original point, the large, and no matter whether there are 600,000 or 475000 9.8 or 8.6, the Italian community is large, in Toronto and Ontario, follows football, and does not follow is not attracted to TFC, how does the census, and whether we are 9.8 or 8.6 of the CMA ( not the GTA) change that in anyway? That is the non-sarcastic point.

Again I made a comment after someone posted the article, because the article confirmed what I had been saying was the feeling in the Italian community, that started this seemingly never ending debate.

Alonso was pointing out the number is less than was thought and proved it. It doesn't mean that number isn't substantial.

Frankly I hope we can get Gila IN SPITE of the community leaders that claim they want more representation. From there we all know that it won't be enough content for many it's just one less excuse to not support ones local.

Fort York Redcoat
12-02-2013, 09:24 AM
I think though ideally, the emphasis should be having the academy more representative of the local diversity (and not saying it isn't but I am not too familiar) through building links to the various communities. I know there is a number of gta youth clubs in the Chinese community, though I am not sure if TFC has links with them.

Yes but does that local diversity even WANT to be a part of the Academy program? I'd like to know what is expected of these relationships and how they fail.

JonO
12-02-2013, 09:34 AM
TFC is biased IN FAVOUR of UK footballing culture. Almost always has been. (The Dutch blip being the exception)

I think your analysis is off. First, I don't know how you came to the grouping you did (what about Spain/Rey?). But even based on this separation, if TFC have a roster of 28 player and 4 are from the UK, then roughly 14% of TFC's roster is from the UK. Based on the small sample size I don't think that is an issue (not much greater than the 10% average you present). I don't have time to dig through the numbers, but it seems as if TFC is really just picking up the wrong players (and maybe not relying as much on South America as some others, but not significantly)

MartinUtd
12-02-2013, 09:43 AM
It is somewhat surprising that no Italians have played for TFC, when we had a number of Italians play for the Toronto Blizzard back in the day. Brazilians have also been under-represented (only Julio Cesar afaik) on TFC. The recent rumour that they have been interested in an Italian shows that the change of regime has resulted in a change of attitude.

That being said, I would prefer a careful selection of the best players ML$E is willing to pay for than selecting just based on ethnicity.

Maicon Santos.

Also further to the point on Spanish players - I know we have Rey but we also had a big name bust of a DP named Mista. Maybe that doesn't count but it's still an attempt at a non british player.

One more thing, do we have to beat down the old stereotype that the british game is all kick and run? I see this line passed around like its a matter of fact and I know the same people would throw a trantrum if I said something just as ignorant like "why should we adopt the dive to win approach?". I don't personally believe that, but it comes to mind when I see mindless kick and run = the English philosophy hoisted upon us.

There's a lot more straw men and logical fallacy where that came from in recent pages as well.

tfcleeds
12-02-2013, 09:49 AM
Maicon Santos.Also Paulo Nagamura in year 1.

Canary10
12-02-2013, 09:53 AM
Maicon Santos.

Also further to the point on Spanish players - I know we have Rey but we also had a big name bust of a DP named Mista. Maybe that doesn't count but it's still an attempt at a non british player.

One more thing, do we have to beat down the old stereotype that the british game is all kick and run? I see this line passed around like its a matter of fact and I know the same people would throw a trantrum if I said something just as ignorant like "we should we adopt the dive to win approach?". I don't personally believe that, but it comes to mind when I see mindless kick and run = the English philosophy hoisted upon us.

There's a lot more straw men and logical fallacy where that came from in recent pages as well.

Thank you. I had an English coach growing up. He taught us to be hard in the tackle but when you win the ball, you settle and play the short pass. Off the ball you create triangles. Possession was number one. None of the "hoofball" we always hear about on here. If I didn't have that British coach, I'd probably still play like Richard Eckersley.

Derko
12-02-2013, 10:02 AM
Geez we are talking about a team with a massive 8 year history, I would say that with the previous management with UK contacts it may seem biased. We have had Dutch, Jamaican, American, Canadian, Welsh, Scots, English, Spanish, Honduran,Argentinian.
I wish we would have a few Italians, and Portugese players. If any of you Punters out there can get a job at TFC and scout some, and have your agents sign a few I would love it.

I honestly don't feel there is anyone pointing a finger and omitting Italians.
Lets go out on a limb here and If TFC did signed a whole squad of players say from Poland and won the league and MLS Cup, would would your thoughts be, likely very positive.
On the other hand if TFC signed a whole squad of Italian players whom enede up being flops, how would you feel, very negative.
Just a very frustrating conversation when it comes down Nationality, it is so personal, and I wouldn't expect or ask anyone to put aside that pride and preference.

My thoughts only. SIGN THE PLAYERS TO DO THE JOB, who really cares where from, if TFC is sucessful, I think this conversation will become a thing of the past, in the short history of TFC.

Oldtimer
12-02-2013, 10:21 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/dec/01/premier-league-long-balls-prozone-data


Just to make you all think.

Interesting. That leaves Canada as the last remaining bastion of longball. :hide:

OgtheDim
12-02-2013, 10:27 AM
Personally, I would not be surprised if hoofball happened more often at the 2nd division and below level in most of Europe, which tends to be where MLS draws players from. (e.g. Rey)

Most of us only see/follow the top leagues.

trane
12-02-2013, 11:19 AM
It is somewhat surprising that no Italians have played for TFC, when we had a number of Italians play for the Toronto Blizzard back in the day. Brazilians have also been under-represented (only Julio Cesar afaik) on TFC. The recent rumour that they have been interested in an Italian shows that the change of regime has resulted in a change of attitude.

That being said, I would prefer a careful selection of the best players ML$E is willing to pay for than selecting just based on ethnicity.

I agree.

My problem, is that what I am stating, is partly my own bias and world view, and partly what I here from other Italians, when we get to this subject. Alot of it is about emotions and therefore not necessarily fair or logical.

trane
12-02-2013, 11:28 AM
I guess that's how "Canadian" got to be #2 on the list. Way to go, a few more like you, Mark Smith, and someday Canadian will be #1 in Toronto!


;)

From my own experience and observation in this city, that is what is happening, eventually, the ethnic groups, simply become Canadian, so the longer a group is here, the more likely that they will identify themselves as Canadian. Therefore, a person whose great grand parents came from Italy, is much more likely to simply identify as Canadian, particularly if his does not have Italian roots on both sides. My point on the census, is that it does not capture ALL people with Italian ancestry, and it certainly does not capture the number of people who would watch Italian football over other kinds of football, my other point, is who really cares, the differences are somewhat marginal, again even if you accept the numbers as they are Italians are a HUGE demographic in the region and the province. HOWEVER, no one ever said there is so many Italians so that TFC has too sign Italian coaches or play Italians football, the comment from the begging, is that TFC does not attract the Itlian community, whatever the damn size is, because it does not have any real connection with our football tradition (whatever the reason for that, choice or not).

Canary10
12-02-2013, 11:39 AM
From my own experience and observation in this city, that is what is happening, eventually, the ethnic groups, simply become Canadian, so the longer a group is here, the more likely that they will identify themselves as Canadian. Therefore, a person whose great grand parents came from Italy, is much more likely to simply identify as Canadian, particularly if his does not have Italian roots on both sides. My point on the census, is that it does not capture ALL people with Italian ancestry, and it certainly does not capture the number of people who would watch Italian football over other kinds of football, my other point, is who really cares, the differences are somewhat marginal, again even if you accept the numbers as they are Italians are a HUGE demographic in the region and the province. HOWEVER, no one ever said there is so many Italians so that TFC has too sign Italian coaches or play Italians football, the comment from the begging, is that TFC does not attract the Itlian community, whatever the damn size is, because it does not have any real connection with our football tradition (whatever the reason for that, choice or not).

The census will have the same issues with all other ancestries, so that issue won't significantly change any of the data. Also, the question related to ethnic origin are broad and respondents are instructed to go way past grandparents. And people can answer as many as they like. So they can say Canadian and Italian for example. Or English, Scottish and Canadian.

trane
12-02-2013, 11:44 AM
^ Well it will effect those groups that have been here longer more, as people who have been here longer ( in terms of generations) will more likely feel "Canadian" and less nation X. So in light that the Italian Immigration in Toronto generally is older then the Indian and Chinese one, they would be more effected.


But again the numbers are not really the point. Nobody is suggesting building a team based on the demographics of the region.

DigzTFC!
12-02-2013, 12:58 PM
I come to my conclusions from the reactions to any time a discussion like this comes about. There is no logical flaw, it is what I observe

(By the way we are talking about anti-Italian football)

Okay, that's not what you wrote. I'm glad you clarified.

I would say the anti-Italian FOOTBALL sentiment has less to do with Italians and more to do with players who do this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCX9Q8e76nA

In the same way people were anti-Ronaldo and anti-Suarez. For some reason, Italians and Portuguese players usually get type casted.

This comes from our hockey mentality I would guess. These clips don't make the highlights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LVV34wfuM4

jabbronies
12-02-2013, 01:27 PM
Glad this topic has been picked up elsewhere, because I think it's an interesting one. OK, so what I don't get is this. If the Italian community in the GTA, by and large, doesn't care for TFC because of perceived or real slights relating to the club's community outreach (read: youth football), suddenly TFC signing a big-name Italian player is supposed to make it all better? I don't get that. My contention is, either you support this club for what it is, or you don't. It should have nothing to do with the various ethnic rivalries that have served to undermine Toronto soccer clubs in the past.

BAM!!!! Right here.

As lovely as these communities are - they have been hamper progression in the sport for decades IMO.
Being a brown kid trying out for an Italian club as a kid the disadvantage had nothing to do with skill and largely to do with not being Italian.

Race before skill is still a sentiment being played out to this day. Stop making it about race and start making it about the game.

jabbronies
12-02-2013, 01:33 PM
Also Paulo Nagamura in year 1.

Ya this whole idea that TFC focuses on British style players is BS IMO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_FC_players

Let's not forget this is a North American league - so most of the players we've been seeing are guys out of University from the states with the occasional Canadian collegiate/local club player.

The international guys we have brought in have been a total mixed bag of players.

If you are talking about style of play....we we never really had one.
Hoof ball isn't an English style...it's a style for teams with no real structure.

Pookie
12-02-2013, 02:53 PM
Step back and understand that in MLS, the league signs the players and holds the contracts. Teams choose their rosters from available players that are within the signed pool of players. If a player isn't scouted by MLS Central Scouting, acquired via the Superdraft or "Homegrown" through its Academy ranks, it's up to the team to bring them to the league via a discovery signing. And those signings are limited in number and limited further by the number of international slots a team has.

Guess how many Italians play in the MLS right now?

Approximately just 8 according to my very quick web search.

Of those, 6 play for Montreal.

Why? Links and scouting of the Italian community are stronger in Montreal than they are in any other MLS franchise.

In Toronto, we have a very limited scouting group. Essentially, it's probably limited to the facebook friends of the manager of the moment. Those managers were either English, interim Canadians or Dutch.

Maybe it's a conspiracy. Maybe it's simply a function of disfunction and lack of investment. Either or the biggest question isn't what's on the passport its why we can't identify quality players... from anywhere.

Derko
12-02-2013, 02:56 PM
This is always the most pointless debate when it comes to club football and Toronto FC.

I agree that you need a model, style of play for the team but it shouldn't be based on nationality.

That's the problem with labels and people labeling certain styles with countries or ethnicities when styles of play are interchangeable with ethnicity.

Ultimately I don't give a shit where players come from or what style they're using as long as they're winning.

I can appreciate hoofball, English football, catenaccio, defensive football, whatever you want to call it as long as they're playing it well and adapting their tactics to their opponents.

I can appreciate tiki-taka, free flowing football, Total Football, whatever you want to call it as long as they're playing it well and adapting their tactics to their opponents.

I'm not a huge fan of English football but I understand that ultimately it's easier to adapt to a foreign country like Canada if players speak English, etc.

Much like if I was moved to South America the odds of me adapting would be easier if I spoke Spanish or Portuguese as opposed to just speaking English.

But regardless this debate comes up all the time and it's idiotically stupid. And why supporters group in this city have failed. Everyone trying to protect their own fiefdom or stick out their nationality.

Do you know why TFC has failed? It has nothing to do with nationality but everything to do with wins/losses and lack of planning.

The team could have decided we're going to park the bus every single game and construct a lineup to do so and if they won a MLS Cup there would still be crowds at BMO.

But every year it's a different plan, a different coach, a different style. No stability.

Add in their off the pitch incompetencies - which would be irrelevant if the team was winning - and you get a typical MLSE clusterfuck.

So spare me this stupid nationality debate because I don't give a shit if the team signs Gilardino or Defoe or Kaka or Ibra or Balotelli or Lu Wei or Ali Daei or Gio dos Santos it's all pointless if there isn't a proper team put into place.

Otherwise, just like every other time, all TFC is doing is throwing things on a wall and hoping something sticks.

P.S. Can't wait for the World Cup next year. :deadhorse:

The nail has been struck on the head

Jack
12-02-2013, 03:19 PM
This is always the most pointless debate when it comes to club football and Toronto FC.

I agree that you need a model, style of play for the team but it shouldn't be based on nationality.

That's the problem with labels and people labeling certain styles with countries or ethnicities when styles of play are interchangeable with ethnicity.

Ultimately I don't give a shit where players come from or what style they're using as long as they're winning.

I can appreciate hoofball, English football, catenaccio, defensive football, whatever you want to call it as long as they're playing it well and adapting their tactics to their opponents.

I can appreciate tiki-taka, free flowing football, Total Football, whatever you want to call it as long as they're playing it well and adapting their tactics to their opponents.

I'm not a huge fan of English football but I understand that ultimately it's easier to adapt to a foreign country like Canada if players speak English, etc.

Much like if I was moved to South America the odds of me adapting would be easier if I spoke Spanish or Portuguese as opposed to just speaking English.

But regardless this debate comes up all the time and it's idiotically stupid. And why supporters group in this city have failed. Everyone trying to protect their own fiefdom or stick out their nationality.

Do you know why TFC has failed? It has nothing to do with nationality but everything to do with wins/losses and lack of planning.

The team could have decided we're going to park the bus every single game and construct a lineup to do so and if they won a MLS Cup there would still be crowds at BMO.

But every year it's a different plan, a different coach, a different style. No stability.

Add in their off the pitch incompetencies - which would be irrelevant if the team was winning - and you get a typical MLSE clusterfuck.

So spare me this stupid nationality debate because I don't give a shit if the team signs Gilardino or Defoe or Kaka or Ibra or Balotelli or Lu Wei or Ali Daei or Gio dos Santos it's all pointless if there isn't a proper team put into place.

Otherwise, just like every other time, all TFC is doing is throwing things on a wall and hoping something sticks.

P.S. Can't wait for the World Cup next year. :deadhorse:
Thank you.

Yohan
12-02-2013, 04:07 PM
This is always the most pointless debate when it comes to club football and Toronto FC.

I agree that you need a model, style of play for the team but it shouldn't be based on nationality.

That's the problem with labels and people labeling certain styles with countries or ethnicities when styles of play are interchangeable with ethnicity.

Ultimately I don't give a shit where players come from or what style they're using as long as they're winning.

I can appreciate hoofball, English football, catenaccio, defensive football, whatever you want to call it as long as they're playing it well and adapting their tactics to their opponents.

I can appreciate tiki-taka, free flowing football, Total Football, whatever you want to call it as long as they're playing it well and adapting their tactics to their opponents.

I'm not a huge fan of English football but I understand that ultimately it's easier to adapt to a foreign country like Canada if players speak English, etc.

Much like if I was moved to South America the odds of me adapting would be easier if I spoke Spanish or Portuguese as opposed to just speaking English.

But regardless this debate comes up all the time and it's idiotically stupid. And why supporters group in this city have failed. Everyone trying to protect their own fiefdom or stick out their nationality.

Do you know why TFC has failed? It has nothing to do with nationality but everything to do with wins/losses and lack of planning.

The team could have decided we're going to park the bus every single game and construct a lineup to do so and if they won a MLS Cup there would still be crowds at BMO.

But every year it's a different plan, a different coach, a different style. No stability.

Add in their off the pitch incompetencies - which would be irrelevant if the team was winning - and you get a typical MLSE clusterfuck.

So spare me this stupid nationality debate because I don't give a shit if the team signs Gilardino or Defoe or Kaka or Ibra or Balotelli or Lu Wei or Ali Daei or Gio dos Santos it's all pointless if there isn't a proper team put into place.

Otherwise, just like every other time, all TFC is doing is throwing things on a wall and hoping something sticks.

P.S. Can't wait for the World Cup next year. :deadhorse:

this. a billion times. let's find a winning plan, and stick with it. nationalities be damned.

While we're on the subject of nationalities, let's debunk the myth that Montreal's Italians did well in MLS. With exception of di Vaio who carried the team, they all sucked.

Rave about Ferrari and Nesta? 2013 Montreal Impact allowed 49 goals against. TFC, 47. Ferrari played 31, Nesta, 23 league games. One of my favourite memories this season was Jeremy Brockie torching Nesta for his only MLS goal. Good thing Nesta has retired before he gets embarrassed even more with his lack of pace and just seemed to play with mentality like he's halfway on his retirement all season.

Of other Italian players, Nelson Rivas, well, he's Colombian but he's ex Serie A, didn't play all season except last playoff game due to injury. Wasted roster and int spot.

Daniele Paponi played 16 league games, scored 2 goals as a striker. Andrea Pisanu was useless too, the winger scoring 1 goal, and assisted once in 14 games.

I'd argue that Montreal's US and Canadian players were better than the Italian contingent. Guys like Justin Mapp (a surprise to most MLS observers), Davy Arnaud, Troy Perkins and probably most important, Patrice Bernier, were the players that kept Montreal in the game. The guys from Jesse Marsch era of IMFC, not Schallibaum.

I don't even have to go into 2nd half IMFC's implosion, barely limping into playoffs. Let's not even talk about the disgraceful behaviour during their playoff match vs Houston.

For a supposedly better team, Mtl couldn't beat TFC at will. 2013 record vs TFC was 2W, 2L, 1D. Of the 2 wins, one was 2-1 win in March in league play and one was 6-0 2nd leg win of Voyageurs Cup, both wins coming early in the season when TFC really sucked.

So, is IMFC a better team than TFC? Who knows?
Mtl is an aging team and as of right now, going to rely on 37 yr old Marco di Vaio for goals and 34 yr old Patrice Bernier as the key midfielder. I'm sure Mtl will be making roster changes, but they are looking into Amauri as their key signing right now. Dude is 33, even if he has plenty of Serie A experience. You can have a talented team, but if your team is not fit, and can't handle the fatigue, MLS will kill you. (Esp if you have to play in CCL)

2014 is going to be interesting for IMFC. Well, pending on what Mr Meddling Owner Joey Saputo does. I don't see a reason to be jealous of Montreal over Toronto for 2014.

Also, fuck Montreal. Allez Les Rouges.

__wowza
12-02-2013, 04:35 PM
yohan and whoop, this one's for you..

http://gifatron.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/George-Costanza-clapping.gif

v00d00daddy
12-02-2013, 05:20 PM
Absolutely pathetic.

People...go back a couple of pages and look at the numbers for the rest of the league.

Forget this anti Italian stuff. It has nothing to do with Italy.

Look at what other teams are doing and what we're not doing.

40% of the players in this league are foreign. That's a substantial number.

We don't tap in to the foreign market the way other teams do.

We go to the UK for players and coaches more than any other team.

We have FOUR players from footballing powerhouse nations from Europe, Central and South America.

There are over 80 in the league. We have FOUR! (Not even...considering DK is done and Aparicio doesn't play)

We have Laba and Rey.

We can say "I don't care where they're from as long as we win" until we're blue in the face but that doesn't mean anything unless we address why we're not winning.

Why does the club make the choices they make?

It's not a conspiracy theory. It's there in black and white.

Or we can just say.."just win" and hope that they get it right this season.

At this time last season we had high hopes for 2013 because of the hiring of Kevin Payne.

Let's not forget that.

This club is fucked up. And we're discussing the possible reasons behind their incompetence.

People think nationality and football is a stupid argument? Fine....tell that to the epl (and several other big club leagues in the world). The EPL lives off of foreign talent.

MLS is going more and more towards that too. TFC is, again, waaaaaaaaaaaay behind on that front and even when they do dip in to the foreign market they neglect the best footballing nations on the planet in favour of what is familiar to them.

The rest of MLS is not doing that. MLS clubs are supplementing their domestic roster with foreign players. But of course this is irrelevant because nationality and football is a stupid discussion.

trane
12-02-2013, 05:26 PM
This is always the most pointless debate when it comes to club football and Toronto FC.

I agree that you need a model, style of play for the team but it shouldn't be based on nationality.

That's the problem with labels and people labeling certain styles with countries or ethnicities when styles of play are interchangeable with ethnicity.

Ultimately I don't give a shit where players come from or what style they're using as long as they're winning.

I can appreciate hoofball, English football, catenaccio, defensive football, whatever you want to call it as long as they're playing it well and adapting their tactics to their opponents.

I can appreciate tiki-taka, free flowing football, Total Football, whatever you want to call it as long as they're playing it well and adapting their tactics to their opponents.

I'm not a huge fan of English football but I understand that ultimately it's easier to adapt to a foreign country like Canada if players speak English, etc.

Much like if I was moved to South America the odds of me adapting would be easier if I spoke Spanish or Portuguese as opposed to just speaking English.

But regardless this debate comes up all the time and it's idiotically stupid. And why supporters group in this city have failed. Everyone trying to protect their own fiefdom or stick out their nationality.

Do you know why TFC has failed? It has nothing to do with nationality but everything to do with wins/losses and lack of planning.

The team could have decided we're going to park the bus every single game and construct a lineup to do so and if they won a MLS Cup there would still be crowds at BMO.

But every year it's a different plan, a different coach, a different style. No stability.

Add in their off the pitch incompetencies - which would be irrelevant if the team was winning - and you get a typical MLSE clusterfuck.

So spare me this stupid nationality debate because I don't give a shit if the team signs Gilardino or Defoe or Kaka or Ibra or Balotelli or Lu Wei or Ali Daei or Gio dos Santos it's all pointless if there isn't a proper team put into place.

Otherwise, just like every other time, all TFC is doing is throwing things on a wall and hoping something sticks.

P.S. Can't wait for the World Cup next year. :deadhorse:

This was not started because anyone said, hey TFC should be more Italian, or play in a more Italian fashion, this was started when, the papers said that Gilardino was picked because it was not Italian, and I wrote something on the lines of "see I have been telling you that these are the views of the Italian community, that TFC is not very attractive to those that follow Italian football" as it is not build on our football tradition. Then it degenerated into why should TFC sing Italians, ect. ect.. I truly did not intend it to be a 4 going on 5 day thing. Although I should have known better.

Yohan
12-02-2013, 05:40 PM
Absolutely pathetic.

People...go back a couple of pages and look at the numbers for the rest of the league.

Forget this anti Italian stuff. It has nothing to do with Italy.

Look at what other teams are doing and what we're not doing.

40% of the players in this league are foreign. That's a substantial number.

We don't tap in to the foreign market the way other teams do.

We go to the UK for players and coaches more than any other team.

We have FOUR players from footballing powerhouse nations from Europe, Central and South America.

There are over 80 in the league. We have FOUR! (Not even...considering DK is done and Aparicio doesn't play)

We have Laba and Rey.

We can say "I don't care where they're from as long as we win" until we're blue in the face but that doesn't mean anything unless we address why we're not winning.

Why does the club make the choices they make?

It's not a conspiracy theory. It's there in black and white.

Or we can just say.."just win" and hope that they get it right this season.

At this time last season we had high hopes for 2013 because of the hiring of Kevin Payne.

Let's not forget that.

This club is fucked up. And we're discussing the possible reasons behind their incompetence.

People think nationality and football is a stupid argument? Fine....tell that to the epl (and several other big club leagues in the world). The EPL lives off of foreign talent.

MLS is going more and more towards that too. TFC is, again, waaaaaaaaaaaay behind on that front and even when they do dip in to the foreign market they neglect the best footballing nations on the planet in favour of what is familiar to them.

The rest of MLS is not doing that. MLS clubs are supplementing their domestic roster with foreign players. But of course this is irrelevant because nationality and football is a stupid discussion.
Who gives a damn where the footballer is from? There has been plenty of junk that played in MLS, and a lot of those guys came from Brazil and Argentina.

If you do your scouting right, you'll get good players, regardless of where they are from.

Hell, you don't even have to go outside North America. See 2013 New England Revolution. 9 out of 11 starters are Americans, yet they play some of the best possession based football in MLS.

MartinUtd
12-02-2013, 06:01 PM
We're going in circles here so lets deal with established facts:



TFC has a disproportionately low share of latin players in its history compared to other MLS teams
Italian players are hard to land in foreign (especially salary capped) leagues
As of today TFC has had exactly 100 players with 10 apps or more

11 of "latin" origin (including France, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's latin)
12 hailing form continental Europe
12 hailing form the British Isles
10 hailing form the Caribbean
6 from Africa
28 from USA
22 from Canada


5 out of 7 of TFC's managers has been from a British background (including Nelsen)
TFC consistently puts very little though into its managerial hiring


What I'm seeing here is an FO that doesn't give a shit. Once again, we're a pretty diverse team once you get past the roster restrictions but somebody is going to be left out. This does speak to the point that TFC "is not very attractive to the Italian community" ...but who's community is it attractive to? I'd wager nobody. Again, we're a shit football team with no history and bad management since day 1. We were never going to pay the big Uzbek money to get Scolari over here and from what I understand there is nobody suitable and local to step up (hence why the CNMT is so bad).

So this is what you get. A lot of pissed off fans looking to point fingers. This was a doomed project from the start, all we can hope for is to string a few wins together to help shed the stigma of being so bad. Once that happens we should be able to attract more talent on and off the field, but until then - don't expect anything.

trane
12-02-2013, 06:13 PM
this. a billion times. let's find a winning plan, and stick with it. nationalities be damned.

While we're on the subject of nationalities, let's debunk the myth that Montreal's Italians did well in MLS. With exception of di Vaio who carried the team, they all sucked.

Rave about Ferrari and Nesta? 2013 Montreal Impact allowed 49 goals against. TFC, 47. Ferrari played 31, Nesta, 23 league games. One of my favourite memories this season was Jeremy Brockie torching Nesta for his only MLS goal. Good thing Nesta has retired before he gets embarrassed even more with his lack of pace and just seemed to play with mentality like he's halfway on his retirement all season.

Of other Italian players, Nelson Rivas, well, he's Colombian but he's ex Serie A, didn't play all season except last playoff game due to injury. Wasted roster and int spot.

Daniele Paponi played 16 league games, scored 2 goals as a striker. Andrea Pisanu was useless too, the winger scoring 1 goal, and assisted once in 14 games.

I'd argue that Montreal's US and Canadian players were better than the Italian contingent. Guys like Justin Mapp (a surprise to most MLS observers), Davy Arnaud, Troy Perkins and probably most important, Patrice Bernier, were the players that kept Montreal in the game. The guys from Jesse Marsch era of IMFC, not Schallibaum.

I don't even have to go into 2nd half IMFC's implosion, barely limping into playoffs. Let's not even talk about the disgraceful behaviour during their playoff match vs Houston.

For a supposedly better team, Mtl couldn't beat TFC at will. 2013 record vs TFC was 2W, 2L, 1D. Of the 2 wins, one was 2-1 win in March in league play and one was 6-0 2nd leg win of Voyageurs Cup, both wins coming early in the season when TFC really sucked.

So, is IMFC a better team than TFC? Who knows?
Mtl is an aging team and as of right now, going to rely on 37 yr old Marco di Vaio for goals and 34 yr old Patrice Bernier as the key midfielder. I'm sure Mtl will be making roster changes, but they are looking into Amauri as their key signing right now. Dude is 33, even if he has plenty of Serie A experience. You can have a talented team, but if your team is not fit, and can't handle the fatigue, MLS will kill you. (Esp if you have to play in CCL)

2014 is going to be interesting for IMFC. Well, pending on what Mr Meddling Owner Joey Saputo does. I don't see a reason to be jealous of Montreal over Toronto for 2014.

Also, fuck Montreal. Allez Les Rouges.

Is IMFC better then TFC? Yes, they won more games, and made the play offs. I think that defines it as a better team.

You have not reason to be jealous of Montreal over Toronto for 2014???? What the fuck is Toronto even going to be in 2014.

Every time I read one of your posts, I want to support Montreal.

brad
12-02-2013, 07:23 PM
We're going in circles here so lets deal with established facts:



TFC has a disproportionately low share of latin players in its history compared to other MLS teams
Italian players are hard to land in foreign (especially salary capped) leagues
As of today TFC has had exactly 100 players with 10 apps or more

11 of "latin" origin (including France, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's latin)
12 hailing form continental Europe
12 hailing form the British Isles
10 hailing form the Caribbean
6 from Africa
28 from USA
22 from Canada


5 out of 7 of TFC's managers has been from a British background (including Nelsen)
TFC consistently puts very little though into its managerial hiring


What I'm seeing here is an FO that doesn't give a shit. Once again, we're a pretty diverse team once you get past the roster restrictions but somebody is going to be left out. This does speak to the point that TFC "is not very attractive to the Italian community" ...but who's community is it attractive to? I'd wager nobody. Again, we're a shit football team with no history and bad management since day 1. We were never going to pay the big Uzbek money to get Scolari over here and from what I understand there is nobody suitable and local to step up (hence why the CNMT is so bad).

So this is what you get. A lot of pissed off fans looking to point fingers. This was a doomed project from the start, all we can hope for is to string a few wins together to help shed the stigma of being so bad. Once that happens we should be able to attract more talent on and off the field, but until then - don't expect anything.

Great post.