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Yohan
11-15-2013, 12:59 PM
Don't know how many people watched the Canada vs Czech Republic game, but boy... Henry's defending consisted of being grabby, to the point the Czech player should have him arrested for molestation, and being out of position. His passing was atrocious.

TBF, none of Canadian defenders shined, but if TFC thinks playoffs are within reach while Henry getting starter mins, boy, it's going to be a long season. Either we accept his mistakes resulting in costly goals as part of his development, or bring in a starter CB and develop Henry more slowly.

PopePouri
11-15-2013, 01:34 PM
I like Henry's raw power and strength combined with Caldwell's organization and positioning so he would be a starter IMO. Many teams have a similar setup with a sweeper, well positioned CB and another CB that tracks runs behind the defense. E.g. John Terry and Cahill / Luis or Dante and Boateng. I think Henry makes Caldwell look really good. If we had a more experienced less athletic CB, Caldwell would probably get exposed more against more athletic forwards.

ag futbol
11-15-2013, 01:55 PM
I'm 50/50 whether he should start or not. But looking at in totality, every coach seems to back this guy and his potential. He looks a lot better next to Caldwell then he did before that. Canada doesn't have a Caldwell or very many other good defenders period.

I wouldn't read into the intl game too much. Canada is weak, Czech is much better, and the style of play is less physical.

Yohan
11-15-2013, 02:18 PM
I'm 50/50 whether he should start or not. But looking at in totality, every coach seems to back this guy and his potential. He looks a lot better next to Caldwell then he did before that. Canada doesn't have a Caldwell or very many other good defenders period.

I wouldn't read into the intl game too much. Canada is weak, Czech is much better, and the style of play is less physical.
it's a problem when Henry can't do the basics, like trapping the ball, and 6 yd passes properly.

spark
11-15-2013, 02:25 PM
I don't think I'd be too worried about it at this point. A 20-year old Canadian having problems handling Czech for me isn't raising alarm bells, and on the TFC-front we don't play a team of that calibre in MLS anyway. I would gauge his potential more on how he performed in MLS week in week out rather than a meaningless international friendly - which, when alongside Caldwell, looked perfectly capable in MLS and at his age still with room to improve with continued minutes.

Ultra & Proud
11-15-2013, 02:27 PM
I don't judge Henry on the Canada matches though. It's not like he's up against a team of the Czech's quality on a weekly basis in MLS. Plus the entire Canada squad is spiraling into a Rob Ford level disaster so it's hard to point at any one particular player's poor performance while playing on a team like that.

prizby
11-15-2013, 02:31 PM
Henry will only get better if he plays; not playing him will hurt his growth

Haddy
11-15-2013, 02:31 PM
and being out of position.

Played a few Czechs onside today. Hard to watch. More seasoning will fix that.

Yohan
11-15-2013, 02:33 PM
I don't think I'd be too worried about it at this point. A 20-year old Canadian having problems handling Czech for me isn't raising alarm bells, and on the TFC-front we don't play a team of that calibre in MLS anyway. I would gauge his potential more on how he performed in MLS week in week out rather than a meaningless international friendly - which, when alongside Caldwell, looked perfectly capable in MLS and at his age still with room to improve with continued minutes.
I'm on record saying Henry is not MLS starter quality, after seeing him all season, I think.

Which begs another question. What happens if Caldwell gets injured? Henry and Boss for CB pairing? *shudder*

Yohan
11-15-2013, 02:36 PM
Henry will only get better if he plays; not playing him will hurt his growth
and that's the catch 22.

we all want playoffs. but playing Henry will end up costing some goals, goals that may be the decisive difference between playoffs and not, considering how tight the playoffs race was this season.

What do you pick? Henry's experience? Or playoffs? Because I highly doubt you can do both.

Henry will get his mins, in V Cup and squad rotation.

Pint
11-15-2013, 02:36 PM
A player better than Boss to push Henry is necessary and if that person could also fill in at RB or LB it would be even better.

Ultra & Proud
11-15-2013, 02:37 PM
Which begs another question. What happens if Caldwell gets injured? Henry and Boss for CB pairing? *shudder*
This I agree with. Another, more seasoned, bench option CB should be on the TFC shopping list because that defensive pairing has all the makings of the 2011 Iro-Harden set up.

notthesun
11-15-2013, 02:38 PM
Henry has improved. But he still needs more time before he can carry the load for a full season.

I see him being a first-off-the-bench CB next season, ideally. He'll get plenty of minutes without being relied upon too much. I think some people forget how young he is, since he's sort of been around a few years now. The guy is only 20. No need to rush him.

Unfortunately I think Nelsen envisions him as a starter for next year. And who knows, maybe he'll have a breakout year and be really solid. I just don't see it yet.

spark
11-15-2013, 02:44 PM
I'm on record saying Henry is not MLS starter quality, after seeing him all season, I think.

Which begs another question. What happens if Caldwell gets injured? Henry and Boss for CB pairing? *shudder*

That is fair - and if Caldwell gets injured no doubt TFC is in trouble. But that question isn't for me - it's for TFC, and one they should be addressing because you are spot on with what should be common sense - adding more experienced depth.

After seeing him all season, I saw a drastic change in his game from before and after Caldwell arrived to conclude alongside a proper vet, he can be part of a capable pairing. It is up to TFC to see this as well and ensure there is the right kind of depth should the Scot go down.

You are looking at the short/immediate term, and I'm looking long term that putting him out there along w Caldwell now, he is not a liability and those games/minutes as well as being alongside a proper professional will pay off long-term.

I will also go on record to say that even with whatever signings come in this off season, TFC will still be fighting out of the bottom half of the table and at best going for the final playoff spots. To continue to sacrifice the development of players who have all the physical tools, but need the games to sort out the shortcomings you described above, for short-term results (which has gotten us nowhere) will further ensure TFC remain at the bottom of the table and struggle to implement any kind of sustained competitiveness in the league.

prizby
11-15-2013, 02:49 PM
and that's the catch 22.

we all want playoffs. but playing Henry will end up costing some goals, goals that may be the decisive difference between playoffs and not, considering how tight the playoffs race was this season.

What do you pick? Henry's experience? Or playoffs? Because I highly doubt you can do both.

Henry will get his mins, in V Cup and squad rotation.

i am not convinced this team can make up 25 points in 1 year to get them to the playoffs; but if portland can do it starting jean-baptiste often, tfc can do it starting henry

Yohan
11-15-2013, 02:56 PM
i am not convinced this team can make up 25 points in 1 year to get them to the playoffs; but if portland can do it starting jean-baptiste often, tfc can do it starting henry
Jean Baptiste doesn't start for Portland anymore. Not when they have Kahhhhhhh!!!

TFC07
11-15-2013, 03:08 PM
Henry in off-season form played badly today against a quality opponent? No surprise there lol

Yohan
11-15-2013, 03:12 PM
Henry in off-season form played badly today against a quality opponent? No surprise there lol
2 and half weeks since his last game. i don't think that's too far since his last game

prizby
11-15-2013, 03:24 PM
Jean Baptiste doesn't start for Portland anymore. Not when they have Kahhhhhhh!!!

he started 22 out of 34 games...that is more than enough to leave either a positive or a negative impact on a club...if Jean Baptiste can keep Portland in the playoff race for a majority of the season, than I don't think Henry is too much of a concern...we have much, much bigger concerns than him

Yohan
11-15-2013, 03:34 PM
he started 22 out of 34 games...that is more than enough to leave either a positive or a negative impact on a club...if Jean Baptiste can keep Portland in the playoff race for a majority of the season, than I don't think Henry is too much of a concern...we have much, much bigger concerns than him
he only started due to Portland losing 3 CBs ahead of Jean Baptiste in depth chart. plus Ricketts having a career year, also Chara at DM. So Portland got lucky with Jean Baptiste turning out good enough, but it was never in Porter's plan to play Jean Baptiste this much (and why Porter went with his veterans who are returning from injury for late season/playoffs)

jabbronies
11-15-2013, 03:59 PM
Henry isn't a regular starter.

Give him starting minutes in CCL games and against weaker teams during crowded fixture weeks. Aside from that - he's a liability.
He needs to learn A SHIT LOAD of stuff before he can become a starter.

Starting him on the regular won't build his confidence. Especially if he could be costing us games and the blame could fall mainly on his shoulders. That is called setting him up for failure. Something Mojo did very well

ag futbol
11-15-2013, 07:01 PM
it's a problem when Henry can't do the basics, like trapping the ball, and 6 yd passes properly.
That's a bit much. He's not always composed but he's capable. Most cbs in MLS are brutes and little else.

But I agree we need another quality CB regardless

jloome
11-15-2013, 07:44 PM
That's a bit much. He's not always composed but he's capable. Most cbs in MLS are brutes and little else.

But I agree we need another quality CB regardless

I don't know; capable assumes those basics are his only problems. He doesn't read the game well, he's caught up field -- even with Caldwell here -- and doesn't track runs, his tackling is occasionally ham-handed.

I don't see a lot of the upside in the guy that other people seem to. He's a talented natural athlete but repeatedly shattering his confidence by starting him when he's not ready isn't the kind of experience that seems likely to help him read the game better and stop making mistakes.

He's just not ready yet; he's 22 and most defenders don't peak until their late 20s. He shouldn't be starting, he should be the first bench option; he'll still get plenty of time but the team won't suffer.

On that last point, I would also agree we need another quality CB.

notthesun
11-15-2013, 08:24 PM
He's just not ready yet; he's 22 and most defenders don't peak until their late 20s. He shouldn't be starting, he should be the first bench option; he'll still get plenty of time but the team won't suffer.

On that last point, I would also agree we need another quality CB.

Maybe a typo but he's 20, not 22. I agree, like I said, first off the bench would be ideal for him next year. But I think he has a lot of potential if we take our time with him. Compared to Morgan, who has stalled while Henry has gotten better, and I think Henry can develop into an important player for us down the line. He has games where he's incredibly solid, then games where he makes crucial mistakes. I hope we hold onto him long enough where the former vastly outweigh the latter, because I think he can make it there eventually.

ag futbol
11-15-2013, 11:53 PM
I don't know; capable assumes those basics are his only problems. He doesn't read the game well, he's caught up field -- even with Caldwell here -- and doesn't track runs, his tackling is occasionally ham-handed.

I don't see a lot of the upside in the guy that other people seem to. He's a talented natural athlete but repeatedly shattering his confidence by starting him when he's not ready isn't the kind of experience that seems likely to help him read the game better and stop making mistakes.

He's just not ready yet; he's 22 and most defenders don't peak until their late 20s. He shouldn't be starting, he should be the first bench option; he'll still get plenty of time but the team won't suffer.

On that last point, I would also agree we need another quality CB.
Have to agree to disagree. I don’t think he’s far off. I’ve seen other MLS defenders go from bad to good and back again, a lot of it is the totality of the unit they are defending with.

IMO the biggest problem with our defending is the support the midfielders and fullbacks give the CBs as opposed to the CBs themselves. As a typical example of 2013:
ZMyeo1dYMXE
People’s first reaction when they see this “Henry messed up again!”. But watch it a few times, especially the view from behind the net. It leaves me in awe how many defensive mistakes there are across the field on that play and how positionally rigid our players are when defending.

Anyway, even if Henry wasn’t the starter, I’d still expect him to get 15-20 games in so not a big deal. Injuries happen and more squad rotation is probably a necessity.

nonc
11-20-2013, 10:39 AM
Henry and Hainault were very good against Slovenia a legitimate UEFA side. I'm surprised how many of you think he's the same player as years past, he improved A LOT in 2013 with Caldwell. His distribution is not good but it's getting better, as is his positional awareness and demeanor. More importantly he's established himself as a defensive force and isn't picking up dumb cautions at the rate he used to in recent past. At only 20, I'd say our current CB situation is the least of TFC concerns. I'd agree a better backup than Boss would be useful though.

Morgan on the other hand, I fear for and dread the idea of starting in 2014. He had a terrible, terrible season.

Dreadlocks
11-20-2013, 11:38 AM
Have to agree to disagree. I don’t think he’s far off. I’ve seen other MLS defenders go from bad to good and back again, a lot of it is the totality of the unit they are defending with.

IMO the biggest problem with our defending is the support the midfielders and fullbacks give the CBs as opposed to the CBs themselves. As a typical example of 2013:
ZMyeo1dYMXE
People’s first reaction when they see this “Henry messed up again!”. But watch it a few times, especially the view from behind the net. It leaves me in awe how many defensive mistakes there are across the field on that play and how positionally rigid our players are when defending.

Anyway, even if Henry wasn’t the starter, I’d still expect him to get 15-20 games in so not a big deal. Injuries happen and more squad rotation is probably a necessity.




I don't think Henry was at fault at all on that goal. Hall is ball watching and Caldwell got pulled off to the right side by a run that should have been picked up by the right back. Because of this, Henry had to play an area and not track a man. Look at 0:41 you can see Henry and Morgan both had a man close but there was also a player making a run from deep that should have been picked up by Caldwell or Hall.

For me, that goal was caused by Hall and Calwell. In fact Bendik could have come for the ball but I can understand why he didn't.

Anyway, I have no problem with the kid. Sure he'll make mistakes but is learning fast. Like another poster said, CB is the least of TFC's worries right now.

OfficeGuy
11-20-2013, 01:50 PM
I have not been a fan of Henry for a long time now..... too many displaced balls, depth perception seems to be off on long balls sent his way and man on man marking leaves lots to desired