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mastermixer
11-14-2013, 11:02 AM
After hearing the rumours of Gilardino being told not to come to TFC, just wondering what are any specific circumstances that have occurred in the past that has brought this on. I totally understand the bad reputation of TFC management and coaches, but how is TFC in bad relations with local clubs and ethnic communities?

MartinUtd
11-14-2013, 11:51 AM
I'd wager TFC burned a bridge with Matias Laba.

He vouched for the club to Urruti and look what happened. Sure, it might have worked out for the best, but if I was considering a move to North America, I wouldn't call him and ask for his opinion.

jloome
11-14-2013, 11:54 AM
This stuff is all grotesquely overblown.

This is a high-level professional environment. There were always be trust and mistrust, there will always be both advocates and opponents. But this isn't like a regular job; players aren't going to be calling around asking for people to "vouch" for an MLS-level club; their primary interests will be the value of the contract and whether it's somewhere their family wants to live.

Neither of these has much to do with the club's handling of football. So no, I seriously doubt with its purchasing power and with Toronto's liveable environment that this is a major issue.

nonc
11-14-2013, 12:02 PM
If these influential Italian ex-pats are mostly angry over TFC Academy--which is very good and none of their business anyway, it seems like trying to keep Gilardino away might some kind of revenge f*** for not looking harder at certain youth clubs in the city, or not taking on certain Italian teens, perhaps even directly from Italy who have no shot there.

Beach_Red
11-14-2013, 12:17 PM
This stuff is all grotesquely overblown.

This is a high-level professional environment. There were always be trust and mistrust, there will always be both advocates and opponents. But this isn't like a regular job; players aren't going to be calling around asking for people to "vouch" for an MLS-level club; their primary interests will be the value of the contract and whether it's somewhere their family wants to live.

Neither of these has much to do with the club's handling of football. So no, I seriously doubt with its purchasing power and with Toronto's liveable environment that this is a major issue.

When the team started they pretty much handed it over to a single agency. Sometimes I wonder what the lasting effects of that are in this professional environment....

jloome
11-14-2013, 12:56 PM
When the team started they pretty much handed it over to a single agency. Sometimes I wonder what the lasting effects of that are in this professional environment....

There's a lot of interplay with agents in general in MLS. I think we took a singular approach, probably for reasons that involved outright corruption. But beyond that, the way negotiations happen isn't going to change, and in football these days they're usually so protracted it's just silly for people to think a few paisans calling the old country are going to hobble talks.

moralis
11-14-2013, 01:34 PM
Interesting analysis on this subject from Jason Devos on today's TSN FC podcast. It's the first topic on the podcast:

http://iphone.tsn.ca/tsnpodcasts/tsnfc-full-nov14.mp3

mastermixer
11-14-2013, 02:18 PM
Interesting analysis on this subject from Jason Devos on today's TSN FC podcast. It's the first topic on the podcast:

http://iphone.tsn.ca/tsnpodcasts/tsnfc-full-nov14.mp3

Just listened... it makes an interesting debate if TFC should focus more on building Canadian talent over putting together a winning team. After all, the goal of MLS is to grow players for the US system. We are just a guest.

OgtheDim
11-14-2013, 02:41 PM
Just listened... it makes an interesting debate if TFC should focus more on building Canadian talent over putting together a winning team. After all, the goal of MLS is to grow players for the US system. We are just a guest.

:puke:

In what sort of mixed up world does anybody think we have gotten so low that it is worth blowing up the whole operation in order to become a farm team to the rest of the world?!?!?!

Fort York Redcoat
11-14-2013, 03:40 PM
Just listened... it makes an interesting debate if TFC should focus more on building Canadian talent over putting together a winning team. After all, the goal of MLS is to grow players for the US system. We are just a guest.

I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive. Everyone disagrees on what point or player we can call the team too Canadian its hurting the team. I think avoiding Canadian talent altogether is ridiculous.

brad
11-14-2013, 03:49 PM
That DeVos clip is very interesting.

Developing Canadian talent only makes sense due to the roster limitations in the league. TFC should be working with the youth teams to help them develop players and working together with them to get access to the best talent.

ag futbol
11-14-2013, 04:09 PM
That DeVos clip is very interesting.

Developing Canadian talent only makes sense due to the roster limitations in the league. TFC should be working with the youth teams to help them develop players and working together with them to get access to the best talent.
I think in a TFC context it also makes sense from a strategic perspective. We have one of the best local player pools in North America. You combine that with a deep local scouting network and resources that develop talent, you have an advantage other teams can't replicate. I know this is the most overused / cliched example, but the Ajax article that's floating around out there should be an inspiration to this club and how they conduct business.

Not saying that is easy or the only solution, but I continue to think it's a great idea.

Oldtimer
11-14-2013, 04:17 PM
After hearing the rumours of Gilardino being told not to come to TFC, just wondering what are any specific circumstances that have occurred in the past that has brought this on. I totally understand the bad reputation of TFC management and coaches, but how is TFC in bad relations with local clubs and ethnic communities?

If you ignore Duane's blog you'll be much happier. There is zero evidence that Gilardino hasn't come because of being scared away.

Ultra & Proud
11-14-2013, 04:26 PM
I don't put much stock in the burnt bridges theory because I've seen it happen many times before and these bridges always seem to be often easily repaired with a bit (a lot) of money.

trane
11-14-2013, 04:58 PM
I am not sure about Gilardino. The Italian press seemed to be positive about it, but that was in Italy. But I have said it for a long time, that TFC is not the team of Italian-Torontonians, to some sure, but not to the masses, it simply does not speak to us, in soccer terms. So I can see it being true. I have heard some people who have long history's in the Italian Torontonian community being very negative of TFC as an organization.

Yohan
11-14-2013, 05:07 PM
I get that TFC screwed up in the past, and the new FO needs to do a lot to repair that damage, but if the soccer community in Toronto refuses to work with TFC because of past grudges, that's just silly.

Marc"2L"
11-14-2013, 05:22 PM
The TSN FC podcast does a good job of summing up what the soccer folks have probably done, just honest opinion.

If you had to explain TFC at some point, you'll probably use the words "bad" and "unstable"

BuSaPuNk
11-14-2013, 06:35 PM
I get that TFC screwed up in the past, and the new FO needs to do a lot to repair that damage, but if the soccer community in Toronto refuses to work with TFC because of past grudges, that's just silly.

Same attitude that has held back the CSA for decades. Get people in that want to do what's best for Canadian Soccer or in the case were talking about Toronto FC. Period. Don't care where there from or what there background is. We are either working together for the best for our team and the Canadian system, or we rid ourselves of these poison relationships that don't work.

Ivy
11-14-2013, 07:35 PM
Same attitude that has held back the CSA for decades. Get people in that want to do what's best for Canadian Soccer or in the case were talking about Toronto FC. Period. Don't care where there from or what there background is. We are either working together for the best for our team and the Canadian system, or we rid ourselves of these poison relationships that don't work.

What they're saying is that these locals reached out and wanted to work with TFC for the benefit of both sides, just to be shown a closed door.
In this case, TFC past regimes are to blame; whether they will attempt to fix that is to be seen.

BuSaPuNk
11-14-2013, 07:50 PM
What they're saying is that these locals reached out and wanted to work with TFC for the benefit of both sides, just to be shown a closed door.
In this case, TFC past regimes are to blame; whether they will attempt to fix that is to be seen.

Oh for sure. It's a two way street though. Can't understand how a group would now be so stupid to hinder a local team from bringing in top talent. It's good for both parties. Big named players no matter what background grows the game and has a face that can turn kids to the sport and thus joining these academies and youth teams.

Areathrasher
11-14-2013, 08:29 PM
I am not sure about Gilardino. The Italian press seemed to be positive about it, but that was in Italy. But I have said it for a long time, that TFC is not the team of Italian-Torontonians, to some sure, but not to the masses, it simply does not speak to us, in soccer terms. So I can see it being true. I have heard some people who have long history's in the Italian Torontonian community being very negative of TFC as an organization.

Can you elaborate on how this is the case?

Genuinely interested.

trane
11-14-2013, 08:59 PM
^ I have spoken about it over and over. Again I am not going to say that I have taken a poll or conducted research, but lets face it when Italians meet football tends to be discussed, and this is what I get from others. Italian football, "calcio" has its own history and philosophy of play. Tactics, organization, and fundamentals are prized over ever thing, defence, of course is important, counter-attack, ect, ect, it is just a very specific tradition, but nothing in tfc from the name to the coaches, and the players ( excluding Danny Dichio who was a mix of Italian and Brit football perfect for this city) is from that tradition.
Even the red of the club was a homage to LFC. TO an Italian the team is very british, not that this is wrong, but it does not necessarily speak to our football sensibilities.

Areathrasher
11-14-2013, 09:58 PM
^ I have spoken about it over and over. Again I am not going to say that I have taken a poll or conducted research, but lets face it when Italians meet football tends to be discussed, and this is what I get from others. Italian football, "calcio" has its own history and philosophy of play. Tactics, organization, and fundamentals are prized over ever thing, defence, of course is important, counter-attack, ect, ect, it is just a very specific tradition, but nothing in tfc from the name to the coaches, and the players ( excluding Danny Dichio who was a mix of Italian and Brit football perfect for this city) is from that tradition.
Even the red of the club was a homage to LFC. TO an Italian the team is very british, not that this is wrong, but it does not necessarily speak to our football sensibilities.

Yea, kinda new to the board.

Thanks for the reply

Rudi
11-14-2013, 11:28 PM
Even the red of the club was a homage to LFC.
It is?

I would argue that everything from the logo, to the stadium, to the current jersey design scream otherwise. The red was chosen for another reason.

Haddy
11-15-2013, 12:18 AM
Even the red of the club was a homage to LFC.

^ What Rudi said.

Everything about the club is Canadian. It's honestly a shame if anyone around here can't see that first before anything else. The gigantic leaf apparently isn't obvious enough.

But if we're doing club kit comparisons, TFC started with a very Man United red shirt and white shorts. If an homage was ever intended, why would they EVER lean away from arguably the biggest club in the world?

I'm Italian, too. I don't care how many vowels are in a player's name. Just win the damn match.

CSO_BBTB
11-15-2013, 06:30 AM
If you ignore Duane's blog you'll be much happier. There is zero evidence that Gilardino hasn't come because of being scared away.

All too obvious sometimes that he is just looking for ways to create a talking point that generate hits, but on this one I suspect there might be something to it. Prime suspects if it is people in the GTA soccer community would be people like Carmine Isacco and Bob Iarusci. At the outset TFC appeared close to Toronto Azzurri in terms of which youth players were being signed, but that didn't seem to last very long.

OgtheDim
11-15-2013, 07:03 AM
,,. I don't care how many vowels are in a player's name. Just win the damn match.

This.

Fort York Redcoat
11-15-2013, 08:05 AM
I'm Italian, too. I don't care how many vowels are in a player's name. Just win the damn match.


I applaud the sentiment but I think this is more about the numerous amount from "this ethnic community" who have engrained a culture of Canadian Calcio that seek some representation in the highest level of professional football in the their city. I think with wealth of talent it's not too much to expect either.



But what I can't for the life of me understand is why ANY ethnic community would shoot themselves in the foot like is allegedly happening here?


This is crazy pills to me. If I was Italian Canadian I would be pissed (well I am pissed anyway but I'd be more pissed) if I wanted representation on my team from the league and country I love second;) best and the leaders of my community killed a deal. The deal that would start the influence that I prefer.

How the fuck else does the influence start? Is the message that we don't want to waste good Itallian (or any other ethnic community represented in our fine, diverse, city) players on this team until we have Italian (or any other ethnic community represented in our fine, diverse, city) coaches, managers etc.???

mastermixer
11-15-2013, 08:43 AM
I applaud the sentiment but I think this is more about the numerous amount from "this ethnic community" who have engrained a culture of Canadian Calcio that seek some representation in the highest level of professional football in the their city. I think with wealth of talent it's not too much to expect either.



But what I can't for the life of me understand is why ANY ethnic community would shoot themselves in the foot like is allegedly happening here?


This is crazy pills to me. If I was Italian Canadian I would be pissed (well I am pissed anyway but I'd be more pissed) if I wanted representation on my team from the league and country I love second;) best and the leaders of my community killed a deal. The deal that would start the influence that I prefer.

How the fuck else does the influence start? Is the message that we don't want to waste good Itallian (or any other ethnic community represented in our fine, diverse, city) players on this team until we have Italian (or any other ethnic community represented in our fine, diverse, city) coaches, managers etc.???

Maybe they want TFC to be called Toronto Italia before they support? lol

Fort York Redcoat
11-15-2013, 08:51 AM
Maybe they want TFC to be called Toronto Italia before they support? lol

http://076dd0a50e0c1255009e-bd4b8aabaca29897bc751dfaf75b290c.r40.cf1.rackcdn.c om/images/files/000/415/292/original/original.jpg

Ultra & Proud
11-15-2013, 10:34 AM
Even the red of the club was a homage to LFC.

I never understood why people thought that when to me it's pretty clear where the colors came from:


http://www.lastframepictures.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Red-Maple-Canadian-Flag-HLF.jpg

As for the team being British thing, a lot of people involved in MLSE and TFC are Canadian or American. Thusly have a decent chance of being from UK decent as do a lot of players available in the NCAA draft, especially earlier on in MLS' history. It just happens. Look around MLS and ignore examples of attempting to do a push for certain ethnicities (Impact/Chivas) and you could call a lot of teams pretty UK based if you want to go by ethnic roots and geneology. But the bottom line is that all this means shit. I just want a winning team and sooner rather than later. We could raid the Malaysian league and start all XI from there and if it meant our team was winning then I'd be all for it. I could give two shits if (in my case) Canada or Scotland weren't represented on TFC. But then again I'm not a nationalist snob, just a supporter of my home club.

Brooker
11-15-2013, 10:41 AM
I was unaware we still had bridges.

Ultra & Proud
11-15-2013, 10:50 AM
I was unaware we still had bridges.
Like I said money and in our case, wholesale roster, FO, management, everything changes always bring around a sense of newness and optimism. Too bad it always ends up the same way.

OgtheDim
11-15-2013, 11:37 AM
I never understood why people thought that when to me it's pretty clear where the colors came from:


http://www.lastframepictures.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Red-Maple-Canadian-Flag-HLF.jpg



Oh the irony of the spell checker...

Ultra & Proud
11-15-2013, 11:47 AM
Oh the irony of the spell checker...
I am protesting grammar and punctuation today.

Luanda
11-15-2013, 11:49 AM
It is?

I would argue that everything from the logo, to the stadium, to the current jersey design scream otherwise. The red was chosen for another reason.

And I always thought it was for all of the benfiquistas in Toronto!
Got a lot of revision to do with respect to my loyalty.

brad
11-15-2013, 07:30 PM
Some of the early (and loud) voices in the support community, particularly RPB were Liverpool supporters, and there influence put a Liverpool slant on the early days IMHO.

trane
11-16-2013, 05:48 AM
I applaud the sentiment but I think this is more about the numerous amount from "this ethnic community" who have engrained a culture of Canadian Calcio that seek some representation in the highest level of professional football in the their city. I think with wealth of talent it's not too much to expect either.



But what I can't for the life of me understand is why ANY ethnic community would shoot themselves in the foot like is allegedly happening here?


This is crazy pills to me. If I was Italian Canadian I would be pissed (well I am pissed anyway but I'd be more pissed) if I wanted representation on my team from the league and country I love second;) best and the leaders of my community killed a deal. The deal that would start the influence that I prefer.

How the fuck else does the influence start? Is the message that we don't want to waste good Itallian (or any other ethnic community represented in our fine, diverse, city) players on this team until we have Italian (or any other ethnic community represented in our fine, diverse, city) coaches, managers etc.???

You got it, and I agree with you, if I was one of the leaders in terms of football I would have encouraged Gila to come here, as you said it makes more sense to me.

Shakes McQueen
11-16-2013, 07:14 AM
Just stop treating players and managerial personnel like shit, and the bridges will mend themselves. It's a far easier problem to solve than they realize, once they proceed past the stage where they keep punching themselves in the face.

- Scott

trane
11-16-2013, 09:37 AM
For the record, early on I read in many articles that the red was chosen in part because of the strong LFC supporter presence in Toronto. Yes they are also the colours of our flag, but LFC seems to have been a factor. The kit early on was much closer to the LFC kit at the time.

Auzzy
11-16-2013, 10:17 AM
Not sure if this was already mentioned, but here's a very different take on why Gilardino might not be coming to TFC: http://www.gianlucadimarzio.com/calciomercato/gilardino-has-doubts-on-joining-toronto-fc-defoe-remains-the-alternative/

- Wants to go to Brazil
- Not convinced about the competitive environment here
- At 31, hoping for one more contract with a big club in Italy, or another high-profile league like the EPL
- Would like more time to decide, but TFC pushing for an answer soon
- Concerned about choosing now, but playing for Genoa for the rest of the season. Fans may think his mind is elsewhere.

ManUtd4ever
11-16-2013, 11:01 AM
Not sure if this was already mentioned, but here's a very different take on why Gilardino might not be coming to TFC: http://www.gianlucadimarzio.com/calciomercato/gilardino-has-doubts-on-joining-toronto-fc-defoe-remains-the-alternative/

- Wants to go to Brazil
- Not convinced about the competitive environment here
- At 31, hoping for one more contract with a big club in Italy, or another high-profile league like the EPL
- Would like more time to decide, but TFC pushing for an answer soon
- Concerned about choosing now, but playing for Genoa for the rest of the season. Fans may think his mind is elsewhere.

Now that makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than TFC management's overtures to Gilardino being allegedly sabotaged by prominent members of Toronto's Italian community...

Marc"2L"
11-16-2013, 01:09 PM
Not sure if this was already mentioned, but here's a very different take on why Gilardino might not be coming to TFC: http://www.gianlucadimarzio.com/calciomercato/gilardino-has-doubts-on-joining-toronto-fc-defoe-remains-the-alternative/

- Wants to go to Brazil
- Not convinced about the competitive environment here
- At 31, hoping for one more contract with a big club in Italy, or another high-profile league like the EPL
- Would like more time to decide, but TFC pushing for an answer soon
- Concerned about choosing now, but playing for Genoa for the rest of the season. Fans may think his mind is elsewhere.

mhmm, mhmm, mhmm,

ok,

NEXT!

Shakes McQueen
11-17-2013, 12:48 AM
I am not sure about Gilardino. The Italian press seemed to be positive about it, but that was in Italy. But I have said it for a long time, that TFC is not the team of Italian-Torontonians, to some sure, but not to the masses, it simply does not speak to us, in soccer terms. So I can see it being true. I have heard some people who have long history's in the Italian Torontonian community being very negative of TFC as an organization.

I thnk it'll be impossible to tell what kind of appeal Toronto FC has to the various cultural groups in Toronto, until the club has had a period of sustained on-field and off-field competence. Right now I wouldn't blame anyone from any background for concluding that TFC doesn't "speak to them". There's no legacy, no glorious history, and very little pride to hang onto. You can't even say you respect the way they conduct themselves as an organization.

- Scott

trane
11-17-2013, 05:34 AM
^ I cannot disagree with that. Take me as an example, I was very open minded and hopeful 8 years ago, their total incompetence killed it for me. Had they chosen any style/system and done it competently (not even winning just competently)would still be in complete love with the team. I still love the idea of this team, but am very disappointed/angry about the reality.

Kaz
11-17-2013, 11:11 AM
I apologize in Advance for this harshness of this post, I've lived in Brampton too long to put up with this culturally prejudiced BS.

What I don't understand is why do people on the boards say that people of various ethnic groups won't support TFC because it isn't "ethnic" enough for them. Are the various ethnic groups in Toronto so prejudiced and so anti Canadian that they would boycott a Toronto Sports team because of their small minded anti-Canadian behaviour? If that is the case lets get a big truck that goes to a big Plane and we can pack them all up and send them back to the country they feel they should live in, because I want people living in Canada who want to be here, and are proud of Canada and all Canadians no matter what nation they started in. I don't care if you are Sikh, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Europeans, Asian, South Asian, Middle Eastern, African, Afrikaans, South American, Mexican, Caribbean, a Pacific Islander, from the Land down under or Hobbit Island or anything else I missed.. (except the Dutch no Dutch be cool ;) ) I want a winning team. I don't care if it started being modelled after a club in England, that clearly didn't happen on the field, off the field or anywhere else, the incompetence in producing a good club on the pitch or in he office is uniquely Torontian. More to that, if you were to make it more "Italian" and the different groups are as racists as people claim, that would be a bad thing, because then they other groups wouldn't come. Which is what I think is happening in Montreal, Toronto is getting similar attendance as Montreal even though Toronto's, Toronto team has been a pile of dog crap for 7 years, and Montreal's Italian team hasn't been bad.

The team is Toronto's team, for better or for worse.

sure there are more Italians per capita in Toronto then there are in Liverpool or Manchester, but do you think the Italians there say oh we don't go to the games because it's too British? Maybe we should ask Danny Dichio if his Italian father watched football, or went to football matches... It's football you support your local club and stop being culturally prejudiced or get out.

If you really want to hate on something that bad, there is a Krew in Columbus to hate on, and a bunch of Blue pricks in Montreal to chant at.

TFC07
11-17-2013, 12:42 PM
I apologize in Advance for this harshness of this post, I've lived in Brampton too long to put up with this culturally prejudiced BS.

What I don't understand is why do people on the boards say that people of various ethnic groups won't support TFC because it isn't "ethnic" enough for them. Are the various ethnic groups in Toronto so prejudiced and so anti Canadian that they would boycott a Toronto Sports team because of their small minded anti-Canadian behaviour? If that is the case lets get a big truck that goes to a big Plane and we can pack them all up and send them back to the country they feel they should live in, because I want people living in Canada who want to be here, and are proud of Canada and all Canadians no matter what nation they started in. I don't care if you are Sikh, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Europeans, Asian, South Asian, Middle Eastern, African, Afrikaans, South American, Mexican, Caribbean, a Pacific Islander, from the Land down under or Hobbit Island or anything else I missed.. (except the Dutch no Dutch be cool ;) ) I want a winning team. I don't care if it started being modelled after a club in England, that clearly didn't happen on the field, off the field or anywhere else, the incompetence in producing a good club on the pitch or in he office is uniquely Torontian. More to that, if you were to make it more "Italian" and the different groups are as racists as people claim, that would be a bad thing, because then they other groups wouldn't come. Which is what I think is happening in Montreal, Toronto is getting similar attendance as Montreal even though Toronto's, Toronto team has been a pile of dog crap for 7 years, and Montreal's Italian team hasn't been bad.

The team is Toronto's team, for better or for worse.

sure there are more Italians per capita in Toronto then there are in Liverpool or Manchester, but do you think the Italians there say oh we don't go to the games because it's too British? Maybe we should ask Danny Dichio if his Italian father watched football, or went to football matches... It's football you support your local club and stop being culturally prejudiced or get out.

If you really want to hate on something that bad, there is a Krew in Columbus to hate on, and a bunch of Blue pricks in Montreal to chant at.

That's one thing people don't get that if you cater to one crowd, then you're going to exclude a lot of other groups. If this team was build around "Italian" way, then a lot of non-Italians wouldn't support this team.

ag futbol
11-17-2013, 12:57 PM
Now that makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than TFC management's overtures to Gilardino being allegedly sabotaged by prominent members of Toronto's Italian community...
I think Jason DeVos's take on the TSN podcast is fair.

"Sabotage" is the wrong way to describe what supposedly happened. People were asked for their opinion, their reputations depend on honest advice. Nobody can objectively look at TFC say we deserve an unreserved glowing review. That being said, I'm sure it's only one factor of many Gilardino will use to make his decision.

The picture some people have of Gilardino being ready to put pen to paper and then some local blows up the transaction seems implausible at best.

Mark in Ottawa
11-17-2013, 01:18 PM
Take me as an example, I was very open minded and hopeful 8 years ago, their total incompetence killed it for me. Had they chosen any style/system and done it competently (not even winning just competently)would still be in complete love with the team. I still love the idea of this team, but am very disappointed/angry about the reality.
This pretty well sums up where I am with TFC at this time as well.
With a new NASL team getting "warmed up" here in Ottawa I see the potential to get back some of my hopefulness.

I am trying to assist our new club and its supporters groups get off on the right foot so to speak and let the fan base see what a good thing we could have.
My understanding is that having Marc dos Santos as the head coach of a good coaching staff along with an owner who is a former pro footballer will attract players.
I have faith that this organization will not allow its reputation to be tarnished as TFC has done.

glaze
11-17-2013, 10:22 PM
So what happens if TFC doesn't land any top-tier marquee DP's during this january transfer window?

trane
11-17-2013, 10:32 PM
I apologize in Advance for this harshness of this post, I've lived in Brampton too long to put up with this culturally prejudiced BS.

What I don't understand is why do people on the boards say that people of various ethnic groups won't support TFC because it isn't "ethnic" enough for them. Are the various ethnic groups in Toronto so prejudiced and so anti Canadian that they would boycott a Toronto Sports team because of their small minded anti-Canadian behaviour? If that is the case lets get a big truck that goes to a big Plane and we can pack them all up and send them back to the country they feel they should live in, because I want people living in Canada who want to be here, and are proud of Canada and all Canadians no matter what nation they started in. I don't care if you are Sikh, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Europeans, Asian, South Asian, Middle Eastern, African, Afrikaans, South American, Mexican, Caribbean, a Pacific Islander, from the Land down under or Hobbit Island or anything else I missed.. (except the Dutch no Dutch be cool ;) ) I want a winning team. I don't care if it started being modelled after a club in England, that clearly didn't happen on the field, off the field or anywhere else, the incompetence in producing a good club on the pitch or in he office is uniquely Torontian. More to that, if you were to make it more "Italian" and the different groups are as racists as people claim, that would be a bad thing, because then they other groups wouldn't come. Which is what I think is happening in Montreal, Toronto is getting similar attendance as Montreal even though Toronto's, Toronto team has been a pile of dog crap for 7 years, and Montreal's Italian team hasn't been bad.

The team is Toronto's team, for better or for worse.

sure there are more Italians per capita in Toronto then there are in Liverpool or Manchester, but do you think the Italians there say oh we don't go to the games because it's too British? Maybe we should ask Danny Dichio if his Italian father watched football, or went to football matches... It's football you support your local club and stop being culturally prejudiced or get out.

If you really want to hate on something that bad, there is a Krew in Columbus to hate on, and a bunch of Blue pricks in Montreal to chant at.

I like the "stop being culturally prejudiced or get out"??? What of Toronto??? Canada????

See reading your post makes one thing clear you have not idea what I am talking about, this is about football and the way it is played. It was a mature conversation among supporters who for the most part realize there are many schools of though and approaches to playing the game this has very little to do, with cultural hate. Most of us are immigrants who have grown up with different traditions, different football heroes, supporting different clubs, it is a healthy conversation to have until you introduce such strong xenophobic undertones,

trane
11-17-2013, 10:40 PM
That's one thing people don't get that if you cater to one crowd, then you're going to exclude a lot of other groups. If this team was build around "Italian" way, then a lot of non-Italians wouldn't support this team.

Listen TFC may have set up the club to caters to the widest possible spectrum, and that is fine. The point is that despite what Kaz may wish there is a very strong local Italian Footballing community and culture, which is not realty enamored with TFC and is likely (after the EPL/British contingent) the largest single group supporting football in Ts oronto, which is not enamored with TFC for many reasons. Why is this reality so offensive to some people. These people grew up watchins Serie A and the Azzurri, so they have there own footballing world view. It is just reality.

Marc"2L"
11-17-2013, 11:22 PM
So what happens if TFC doesn't land any top-tier marquee DP's during this january transfer window?

Surely you're not suggesting the Toronto Football Club will fail at backing up a grandiose claim?
I suppose they host another meeting and apologize again, claiming that building the core with college and USL players is key.

Bloom is ok by me.

Fort York Redcoat
11-18-2013, 08:54 AM
I think Jason DeVos's take on the TSN podcast is fair.

"Sabotage" is the wrong way to describe what supposedly happened. People were asked for their opinion, their reputations depend on honest advice. Nobody can objectively look at TFC say we deserve an unreserved glowing review. That being said, I'm sure it's only one factor of many Gilardino will use to make his decision.

The picture some people have of Gilardino being ready to put pen to paper and then some local blows up the transaction seems implausible at best.

After thinking upon this it's still conjecture on presentation. I wouldn't want any locals rep to suffer and lie to anyone asking opinion but I'll say I genuinely hope they could present our case sugared with the very real and very large amount of excitement and hope of a great prospect gracing our teams ranks.

The facts can't be argued but damn if we don't want better...:scarf:

Kaz
11-18-2013, 09:34 AM
I like the "stop being culturally prejudiced or get out"??? What of Toronto??? Canada????

See reading your post makes one thing clear you have not idea what I am talking about, this is about football and the way it is played. It was a mature conversation among supporters who for the most part realize there are many schools of though and approaches to playing the game this has very little to do, with cultural hate. Most of us are immigrants who have grown up with different traditions, different football heroes, supporting different clubs, it is a healthy conversation to have until you introduce such strong xenophobic undertones,

What you are saying is that Italians won't watch the game unless it's played the Italian way there are serious Xenophobic undertones to that.

brad
11-18-2013, 09:57 AM
What I have noticed over the years - people that grew up around football (usually ex-pats or 2nd generation Canadians in my experience) generally tend to know more about the game than folks that grew up in Canada, and are most likely relatively new to the game. As such, the standards of what they expect to see on the pitch is higher. That doesn't mean that the expectation you need a Barca/Milan/Man Utd quality out there, but a team that at least looks like a professional team and can handle the basics. TFC did not deliver on that.

To give an example, I have one particularity family member from the UK that grew up watching a very mediocre mid division side in the 60's, 70's and 80's. This was not a high standard of football. When TFC appeared, he was excited to have a local team to support. When I started taking him to games several years back, he was pretty much an utter disbelief that TFC were actually a professional team getting paid to play football. It's not the fact the team lost or anything like that. It was the fact that overall play was utterly inept. Players followed the ball around like kids do. No one held shape, no one played positionally properly, no one moved off the ball, that sort of stuff.

That's the kind of stuff I have seen first hand that has driven ex-pats away, not the lack of success. A lot of ex-pats support a team their whole life that never wins anything.

ArmenJBX
11-18-2013, 10:01 AM
We mustn't forget that this was once a team that couldn't pass the ball amongst itself. Things have improved tremendously since those days.

TFC07
11-18-2013, 10:52 AM
Listen TFC may have set up the club to caters to the widest possible spectrum, and that is fine. The point is that despite what Kaz may wish there is a very strong local Italian Footballing community and culture, which is not realty enamored with TFC and is likely (after the EPL/British contingent) the largest single group supporting football in Ts oronto, which is not enamored with TFC for many reasons. Why is this reality so offensive to some people. These people grew up watchins Serie A and the Azzurri, so they have there own footballing world view. It is just reality.

Yeah, but if TFC were to adopt more Italian way then it will send wrong message to non-Italians. Serie A isn't popular like EPL nor it has a diverse fanbase like EPL. Culturally speaking, Canadians relate to UK more than any other European nation. It's no different when comes to soccer.

Even though I personally don't support British/EPL feel to this team, I understand why TFC will cater to that crowd over any other European crowd (like Italians).

Only reason why TFC wants an Italian DP now because they have pissed off EPL crowd and lost them through their losing and bad management. So they're looking for new fans (like Italians) to fill in missing fans.

Beach_Red
11-18-2013, 11:06 AM
What I have noticed over the years - people that grew up around football (usually ex-pats or 2nd generation Canadians in my experience) generally tend to know more about the game than folks that grew up in Canada, and are most likely relatively new to the game. As such, the standards of what they expect to see on the pitch is higher. That doesn't mean that the expectation you need a Barca/Milan/Man Utd quality out there, but a team that at least looks like a professional team and can handle the basics. TFC did not deliver on that.

To give an example, I have one particularity family member from the UK that grew up watching a very mediocre mid division side in the 60's, 70's and 80's. This was not a high standard of football. When TFC appeared, he was excited to have a local team to support. When I started taking him to games several years back, he was pretty much an utter disbelief that TFC were actually a professional team getting paid to play football. It's not the fact the team lost or anything like that. It was the fact that overall play was utterly inept. Players followed the ball around like kids do. No one held shape, no one played positionally properly, no one moved off the ball, that sort of stuff.

That's the kind of stuff I have seen first hand that has driven ex-pats away, not the lack of success. A lot of ex-pats support a team their whole life that never wins anything.

And from the other side, the folks who grew up in Canada new to this particular game, we've had a lot of experience with seeing expansion teams develop. We're very familiar with this kind of league structure, drafting players etc.. Many of us saw the Blue Jays go from nothing to World Series champions, we've seen a lot of expansion teams in the NHL get started - and TFC from the beginning did a lot of things wrong for an expansion team.

So, they did manage to drive away all kinds of people ;).

BuSaPuNk
11-18-2013, 11:07 AM
Yeah, but if TFC were to adopt more Italian way then it will send wrong message to non-Italians. Serie A isn't popular like EPL nor it has a diverse fanbase like EPL. Culturally speaking, Canadians relate to UK more than any other European nation. It's no different when comes to soccer.

Even though I personally don't support British/EPL feel to this team, I understand why TFC will cater to that crowd over any other European crowd (like Italians).

Only reason why TFC wants an Italian DP now because they have pissed off EPL crowd and lost them through their losing and bad management. So they're looking for new fans (like Italians) to fill in missing fans.

If this is how this team is being built, I worry about out future.

I'm pretty sure there not banking on just grabbing any old DP just because of where he's from just to cater to a certain ethnic group of fans.

Winning solves everything. You want the place packed game in game out, win.

Derko
11-18-2013, 11:53 AM
If this is how this team is being built, I worry about out future.

I'm pretty sure there not banking on just grabbing any old DP just because of where he's from just to cater to a certain ethnic group of fans.

Winning solves everything. You want the place packed game in game out, win.

If you can't score more goals than the other guy, I'm pretty sure ' You're Fucked ' If it takes, hoof ball to do that, great, if it takes latteral short passing up the field to do that, great.
Just get the players to do the job, where from, How about Iceland, I am sure they have a few players that could tear the league a new one.

Canary10
11-18-2013, 12:04 PM
What I have noticed over the years - people that grew up around football (usually ex-pats or 2nd generation Canadians in my experience) generally tend to know more about the game than folks that grew up in Canada, and are most likely relatively new to the game. As such, the standards of what they expect to see on the pitch is higher. That doesn't mean that the expectation you need a Barca/Milan/Man Utd quality out there, but a team that at least looks like a professional team and can handle the basics. TFC did not deliver on that.

To give an example, I have one particularity family member from the UK that grew up watching a very mediocre mid division side in the 60's, 70's and 80's. This was not a high standard of football. When TFC appeared, he was excited to have a local team to support. When I started taking him to games several years back, he was pretty much an utter disbelief that TFC were actually a professional team getting paid to play football. It's not the fact the team lost or anything like that. It was the fact that overall play was utterly inept. Players followed the ball around like kids do. No one held shape, no one played positionally properly, no one moved off the ball, that sort of stuff.

That's the kind of stuff I have seen first hand that has driven ex-pats away, not the lack of success. A lot of ex-pats support a team their whole life that never wins anything.

Yeah, forget about local/cultural variations on the how the game is played being the reason why Italians (or any other expats) don't support TFC. We're not even there yet. The most basic level of play is still below what people are used to in footballing nations. That's the real problem. It's improving (I've watched a few Portland games where the fluidity of their play and movement was actually quite good to watch). But for the most part, MLS isn't playing the "beautiful game," no matter what local variation of it you are used to. And TFC even less so than the better teams.

brad
11-18-2013, 12:04 PM
If you can't score more goals than the other guy, I'm pretty sure ' You're Fucked ' If it takes, hoof ball to do that, great, if it takes latteral short passing up the field to do that, great.
Just get the players to do the job, where from, How about Iceland, I am sure they have a few players that could tear the league a new one.

I think it is going to take a winning team + a competent, entertaining style to really win people back. A winning team will get people in for sure while the team is winning, but if the football is boring (IE long ball) then folks are not going to stick around past the hype. It needs a good, entertaining brand of football to keep people there.

Fort York Redcoat
11-18-2013, 12:28 PM
It's improving But for the most part, MLS isn't playing the "beautiful game," no matter what local variation of it you are used to. And TFC even less so than the better teams.

Quoted for emphasis, truth, and agree + etc

Derko
11-18-2013, 01:29 PM
I think it is going to take a winning team + a competent, entertaining style to really win people back. A winning team will get people in for sure while the team is winning, but if the football is boring (IE long ball) then folks are not going to stick around past the hype. It needs a good, entertaining brand of football to keep people there.

Oh totally agree needs to be creative and fluid to keep the likes of you and I and 90% of supporters at the games, but as afore mentioned be competitive, I felt that during the Winter season, (no pun intended) you could really see some of that creativity and technical play, but didn't have enough of those players for it to materialize, no?

brad
11-18-2013, 01:34 PM
Oh totally agree needs to be creative and fluid to keep the likes of you and I and 90% of supporters at the games, but as afore mentioned be competitive, I felt that during the Winter season, (no pun intended) you could really see some of that creativity and technical play, but didn't have enough of those players for it to materialize, no?

I think we are on the right path. If we can add some potency to the attack - both up front and through the midfield I think we will be okay. I think defensively both at the back and through the midfield we are decent (fullback will need some attention though). I think a lot of our defensive issues in the latter part of this last year had a lot to do with the fact that our attack was so inept that teams knew they could come at us with very little fear of getting hit on the break.

TFC07
11-18-2013, 01:35 PM
I think it is going to take a winning team + a competent, entertaining style to really win people back. A winning team will get people in for sure while the team is winning, but if the football is boring (IE long ball) then folks are not going to stick around past the hype. It needs a good, entertaining brand of football to keep people there.

Too bad Aron Winter lost the locker room in the end. Just imagine where we will be today if he had more time (or his replacement kept playing Winter's way) and had someone who share his philosophy in TFC FO?

When on form during Winter era, TFC looked great and they were holding their own against bigger clubs (especially in CCL).

ag futbol
11-18-2013, 01:40 PM
The plan given to Aron Winter was great, Aron Winter himself was not. He was rightfully fired.

The mistake the club made was not continuing on with the plan. We have to stop doing philosophical 180s every time we fire the coach.

trane
11-18-2013, 02:04 PM
What you are saying is that Italians won't watch the game unless it's played the Italian way there are serious Xenophobic undertones to that.


No it does not, it is a simple statement of fact, that people that grew up with one tradition, like football played in that tradition, and are more likely to support a team built in that tradition, and less likely if it is not. What is xenophobic about that?

trane
11-18-2013, 02:09 PM
What I have noticed over the years - people that grew up around football (usually ex-pats or 2nd generation Canadians in my experience) generally tend to know more about the game than folks that grew up in Canada, and are most likely relatively new to the game. As such, the standards of what they expect to see on the pitch is higher. That doesn't mean that the expectation you need a Barca/Milan/Man Utd quality out there, but a team that at least looks like a professional team and can handle the basics. TFC did not deliver on that.

To give an example, I have one particularity family member from the UK that grew up watching a very mediocre mid division side in the 60's, 70's and 80's. This was not a high standard of football. When TFC appeared, he was excited to have a local team to support. When I started taking him to games several years back, he was pretty much an utter disbelief that TFC were actually a professional team getting paid to play football. It's not the fact the team lost or anything like that. It was the fact that overall play was utterly inept. Players followed the ball around like kids do. No one held shape, no one played positionally properly, no one moved off the ball, that sort of stuff.

That's the kind of stuff I have seen first hand that has driven ex-pats away, not the lack of success. A lot of ex-pats support a team their whole life that never wins anything.

I agree with this 100 % , this was my reaction, not that we did not and do not win, but the football is mostly sub par in its most basic aspects.

trane
11-18-2013, 02:12 PM
I agree about Winter, great idea, poor execution, and if that was the direction, why did we change it 100% when he was fired.

Initial B
11-18-2013, 02:54 PM
I thought we changed direction because there was a power struggle between the 4-3-3 and the 4-4-2 camps ever since the Klinsmann recommendations. The 4-4-2 camp actively worked to ensure the failure of the total football philosophy at TFC, and eventually succeeded in replacing it.

You know, it strikes me that there has always been a struggle for identity with this club. It's like supporters of each of the different philosophies feel threatened when one style starts to dominate, and thus they all try and prevent that while jockeying for position to take its place.

Marc"2L"
11-18-2013, 03:02 PM
That moment you realize you may have in fact burnt more bridges then TFC.....

grr, I need to go back to school.

ManUtd4ever
11-18-2013, 03:09 PM
The plan given to Aron Winter was great, Aron Winter himself was not. He was rightfully fired.

The mistake the club made was not continuing on with the plan. We have to stop doing philosophical 180s every time we fire the coach.

Agreed. It's not about the particular formation that a manager prefers to employ, it's about stressing possession based football.

Beach_Red
11-18-2013, 03:15 PM
The plan given to Aron Winter was great, Aron Winter himself was not. He was rightfully fired.

The mistake the club made was not continuing on with the plan. We have to stop doing philosophical 180s every time we fire the coach.

Was TFC ever really going to be able to sign enough players of enough quality to make that plan work? With the salary cap and domestic requirements the roster was always going to lack depth. A couple of injuries and the whole thing would come apart.

ag futbol
11-18-2013, 04:50 PM
Was TFC ever really going to be able to sign enough players of enough quality to make that plan work? With the salary cap and domestic requirements the roster was always going to lack depth. A couple of injuries and the whole thing would come apart.
I don't think it's that big of an obstacle. Maybe it's not exactly the same, but I've seen RSL, Portland, Colorado this year, and to a lesser degree Dallas all play some sort of derivative of that style.

It can be done but you need the right people running the show.

jabbronies
11-18-2013, 04:56 PM
Yeah, forget about local/cultural variations on the how the game is played being the reason why Italians (or any other expats) don't support TFC. We're not even there yet. The most basic level of play is still below what people are used to in footballing nations. That's the real problem. It's improving (I've watched a few Portland games where the fluidity of their play and movement was actually quite good to watch). But for the most part, MLS isn't playing the "beautiful game," no matter what local variation of it you are used to. And TFC even less so than the better teams.

Agreed.
We can barley do the most basic of things on the pitch 50%.
Until that gets more consistent, it'll be hard to decide a style of play.

Beach_Red
11-18-2013, 05:17 PM
I don't think it's that big of an obstacle. Maybe it's not exactly the same, but I've seen RSL, Portland, Colorado this year, and to a lesser degree Dallas all play some sort of derivative of that style.

It can be done but you need the right people running the show.

Maybe. But with each MLS roster made up of so many north American players, even with the right people running the show (which, of course, we didn't have) would there really be enough players to go around?

Of course, it doesn't matter anymore, but it's one of those things that drove some people away, I think. It sounded like they were pandering to fans who'd never heard of a salary cap or a draft or domestic requirements. Anyone who'd ever followed any other north American sport knew it wasn't going to work.

ag futbol
11-18-2013, 05:54 PM
Maybe. But with each MLS roster made up of so many north American players, even with the right people running the show (which, of course, we didn't have) would there really be enough players to go around?

Of course, it doesn't matter anymore, but it's one of those things that drove some people away, I think. It sounded like they were pandering to fans who'd never heard of a salary cap or a draft or domestic requirements. Anyone who'd ever followed any other north American sport knew it wasn't going to work.
I don’t see the cap as an issue. The style of play isn’t necessarily dependent on your resources. It’s also relative. A free flowing style of play in MLS isn’t exactly world class, but it works within the less competitive environment we have in North America.

The other interesting thing is that because so many clubs go for a different style of play, attributes that you need to play a more possession style system are often overlooked in domestic players. There are tradeoffs involved in selecting any player and I just feel many MLS teams pigeon hole themselves into playing an unattractive physical style. Paul Mariner clearly couldn’t get past the fact that Jao Plata was 5’nothing and Nathan Sturgis isn’t the physical run-you-down type of midfielder. Colorado and RSL didn’t care because they understood how those types would fit into their system. Oddly enough (or maybe just predictably in Plata’s case), they both do well on their new teams. Mariner is an extreme example but not a unique case for this league. There are lots of coaches who still hold a watered down version of his mentality.

Beach_Red
11-18-2013, 06:12 PM
I don’t see the cap as an issue. The style of play isn’t necessarily dependent on your resources. It’s also relative. A free flowing style of play in MLS isn’t exactly world class, but it works within the less competitive environment we have in North America.

The other interesting thing is that because so many clubs go for a different style of play, attributes that you need to play a more possession style system are often overlooked in domestic players. There are tradeoffs involved in selecting any player and I just feel many MLS teams pigeon hole themselves into playing an unattractive physical style. Paul Mariner clearly couldn’t get past the fact that Jao Plata was 5’nothing and Nathan Sturgis isn’t the physical run-you-down type of midfielder. Colorado and RSL didn’t care because they understood how those types would fit into their system. Oddly enough (or maybe just predictably in Plata’s case), they both do well on their new teams. Mariner is an extreme example but not a unique case for this league. There are lots of coaches who still hold a watered down version of his mentality.

Maybe you're right. I just think that the cap combined with the domestic requirement means the pool of available players is small and needs even better management. They have to draft well, they have to sign smart contracts, they have to get exactly the right DPs, they have to develop etc..

So for me that whole debacle was another TFC "burned bridge." It was the Raptors saying they were going to be the Miami Heat...

Kaz
11-18-2013, 06:22 PM
you are saying they will refuse to support a team of the city they live in unless the city plays what you call "Italian" football over any other kind, and if it isn't that style damn them. Yet Italians in other countries can support English style football teams in other parts of the world. So the fact that Italians in Canada or Toronto can't is racists.

Yohan
11-18-2013, 06:25 PM
Its ridiculous how many 'cast offs' end up being key players on an another team, and often for cheap wages. TFC needs to make scouting a priority. Why pay millions of bucks on a player when there are a lot of good players that'll fit your team in your own league?

cwell
11-18-2013, 06:53 PM
I think you're right. I can imagine that the same would apply for a Canadian who grew up with hockey finding him or herself watching English team play. Even if the teams were comprised of expats, the standard of play and, important this, the experience in the stands would be disappointing.

Something I have enjoyed about watching games in England is the commentary that goes on among the spectators. They know what's going on, can compare it with a high standard, expect good technical and tactical play, applaud it if they see it and show their displeasure when the don't. And it's fun!

You aren't likely to get the same thing at an MLS game, unless you're fortunate. At least I haven't seen it.


What I have noticed over the years - people that grew up around football (usually ex-pats or 2nd generation Canadians in my experience) generally tend to know more about the game than folks that grew up in Canada, and are most likely relatively new to the game. As such, the standards of what they expect to see on the pitch is higher. That doesn't mean that the expectation you need a Barca/Milan/Man Utd quality out there, but a team that at least looks like a professional team and can handle the basics. TFC did not deliver on that.

To give an example, I have one particularity family member from the UK that grew up watching a very mediocre mid division side in the 60's, 70's and 80's. This was not a high standard of football. When TFC appeared, he was excited to have a local team to support. When I started taking him to games several years back, he was pretty much an utter disbelief that TFC were actually a professional team getting paid to play football. It's not the fact the team lost or anything like that. It was the fact that overall play was utterly inept. Players followed the ball around like kids do. No one held shape, no one played positionally properly, no one moved off the ball, that sort of stuff.

That's the kind of stuff I have seen first hand that has driven ex-pats away, not the lack of success. A lot of ex-pats support a team their whole life that never wins anything.

ag futbol
11-18-2013, 10:09 PM
Maybe you're right. I just think that the cap combined with the domestic requirement means the pool of available players is small and needs even better management. They have to draft well, they have to sign smart contracts, they have to get exactly the right DPs, they have to develop etc..

So for me that whole debacle was another TFC "burned bridge." It was the Raptors saying they were going to be the Miami Heat...
Well this is just it. In the end you need someone who is competent and effective at what they do regardless of whether they think football is prancing around like a fairy or smashing the guy in the mouth.

I don't think anyone would care if Dominic Kinear was the head coach and TFC played physically through the midfield.

pdogg
11-18-2013, 10:24 PM
Maybe you're right. I just think that the cap combined with the domestic requirement means the pool of available players is small and needs even better management. They have to draft well, they have to sign smart contracts, they have to get exactly the right DPs, they have to develop etc..

So for me that whole debacle was another TFC "burned bridge." It was the Raptors saying they were going to be the Miami Heat...

They need to hire the right people who can do the above, and stick with it for more than a season. The Winter year 1 draft picks would now be coming into their 4th season with the club and be around 26 years old and into their peak years for MLS.

Yohan
11-18-2013, 10:59 PM
Leiweke spoke of changing the culture of TFC, and the best way he can do that is to appoint a team president and a director of football (could be 2 different guys, or one guy with strong work ethic) who are the best talent identifiers in North America.

I'm more convinced every year that a Director of Football who knows what kind of football and tactical system the team should play and can identify the players who can play in that system is the most important position in an MLS team. Because of tight salary cap and weak scouting infrastructure, the guy who can identify another team's garbage player and use him to advantage in his system on a cheap or reasonable wage is crucial to winning. He works with a director of scouting who manages the network of scouts all over the world.

The coach implements the tactics, day to day training and is responsible for man management. If the coach can't get the results, another coach who can work in the system that the director of football wants to be used is hired. The manager should have an input on what players he wants, but ultimately, it is the director of football who makes the player signings. So, the coach becomes more replaceable, but the director of football is not.

And there are only 2 guys in MLS right now that have proven to be best talent identifiers in MLS. Bruce Arena and Garth Lagerwey. If I was Leiweke, I'd do whatever I can to grab one of the two. And if Nelsen can't work for these guys, turf him.

Otherwise if and when Nelsen gets turfed, (and it sounds like Nelsen don't plan on staying with TFC for too long, at least that's my vibe off of him) we're going to have another roster turnover when a new manager with new tactical system comes in. I hear Nelsen is on a 2 yr contract. Can anyone confirm?

trane
11-19-2013, 06:20 AM
you are saying they will refuse to support a team of the city they live in unless the city plays what you call "Italian" football over any other kind, and if it isn't that style damn them. Yet Italians in other countries can support English style football teams in other parts of the world. So the fact that Italians in Canada or Toronto can't is racists.

Will you give up already. You do not like Italians, good for you, I will give you a medal. By the way Danny Dichio born and raised in England to Italian stock is a Milanista.

trane
11-19-2013, 06:24 AM
Its ridiculous how many 'cast offs' end up being key players on an another team, and often for cheap wages. TFC needs to make scouting a priority. Why pay millions of bucks on a player when there are a lot of good players that'll fit your team in your own league?

I agree with this. The thing is you need to assess what your players can do, not what you wish they could do, and put them in the correct role to help them make the best of their abilities, I think we have constantly failed at that, and hence "cast offs" go of an succeed.

I agree with Beach Red we need an identety of some kind, the failure to find one on the pitch makes it hard to build, as the foundation is always shifting.

trane
11-19-2013, 06:27 AM
I think you're right. I can imagine that the same would apply for a Canadian who grew up with hockey finding him or herself watching English team play. Even if the teams were comprised of expats, the standard of play and, important this, the experience in the stands would be disappointing.

Something I have enjoyed about watching games in England is the commentary that goes on among the spectators. They know what's going on, can compare it with a high standard, expect good technical and tactical play, applaud it if they see it and show their displeasure when the don't. And it's fun!

You aren't likely to get the same thing at an MLS game, unless you're fortunate. At least I haven't seen it.


I used to sit with a british guy at tfc games, we would laugh at the ineptitude at lease 5 to 10 a game. I think we both gave up our seasons after in year 5.

Fort York Redcoat
11-19-2013, 08:10 AM
you are saying they will refuse to support a team of the city they live in unless the city plays what you call "Italian" football over any other kind, and if it isn't that style damn them. Yet Italians in other countries can support English style football teams in other parts of the world. So the fact that Italians in Canada or Toronto can't is racists.

It's a style of football. It's a preference or a bias. There are exceptions to your generalization and it's offensive. Take a step back. There are plenty of people that avoid the local team regardless if they play the style they enjoy because of the skill level.

Again I'll say you can't shame people into caring.

Kaz
11-19-2013, 08:44 AM
I don't hate Italians at all, I went to a school that was almost all Italian, first and second generation, they watched and played Hockey and gridiron as well as soccer, cheered loudly for Italy in the World Cup in '94 when they went to the finals, and basically behaved like a cross between the Jersey Shore kids and the kids from the Saparanos, heck there were several IROC in the parting lot. I have no major issues with Italians. I have a issue with Racists pricks, because every one of them was Canadian first.

And what is your meaning behind calling Dichio's dad Milanista? Does that mean he isn't Italian enough for you? Are you prejudiced against different parts of Italy too?

Kaz
11-19-2013, 08:58 AM
It's a style of football. It's a preference or a bias. There are exceptions to your generalization and it's offensive. Take a step back. There are plenty of people that avoid the local team regardless if they play the style they enjoy because of the skill level.

Again I'll say you can't shame people into caring.

Oh if you don't care because you don't care that is one thing. but Trane is saying they would care if it was Italian football, and if TFC played more Italian players. and that is predjudice, and they refuse to watch because it is English style football on principle, and is offensive to me, because it is anti-canadian, it's saying that a portion of the Toronto Italian community wants nothing to do with Canada. Worse is he is now saying (or seems to be) only Southern Italians count.

and I'm sorry I find that deeply offensive.

My point is simple Italians can move it England and there kids still watch English Football, in Danny Dichio's case he played it. There seems to be no issue with "Italian" sensibilities there.

I'm not a huge fan of CSL level soccer but I still follow the Brampton Lions (United now I suppose) and even Niagara United because they are the local teams. Maybe my Canadian Sensibilities of growing up outside of Toronto in Small towns of Ontario means I have local sensibilities, but to me not supporting a local team just because they don't play "the right kind of football" or don't have enough ethnic player you approve of, is highly offensive to me.

Fort York Redcoat
11-19-2013, 09:21 AM
Oh if you don't care because you don't care that is one thing. but Trane is saying they would care if it was Italian football, and if TFC played more Italian players. and that is predjudice, and they refuse to watch because it is English style football on principle, and is offensive to me, because it is anti-canadian, it's saying that a portion of the Toronto Italian community wants nothing to do with Canada. Worse is he is now saying (or seems to be) only Southern Italians count.

and I'm sorry I find that deeply offensive.

My point is simple Italians can move it England and there kids still watch English Football, in Danny Dichio's case he played it. There seems to be no issue with "Italian" sensibilities there.

I'm not a huge fan of CSL level soccer but I still follow the Brampton Lions (United now I suppose) and even Niagara United because they are the local teams. Maybe my Canadian Sensibilities of growing up outside of Toronto in Small towns of Ontario means I have local sensibilities, but to me not supporting a local team just because they don't play "the right kind of football" or don't have enough ethnic player you approve of, is highly offensive to me.

You need to stop speaking for someone else, first off, and then check really carefully on your phrasing. Your point is going to get lost in playing the racist card.

Even if someone doesn't wish to watch English style football which may show a prejudice it does not make them anti-Canadian. We're still working on that style and the point should be that we're all contributing on making that a successful style made up of different influences.

Kaz
11-19-2013, 09:52 AM
You need to stop speaking for someone else, first off, and then check really carefully on your phrasing. Your point is going to get lost in playing the racist card.

Even if someone doesn't wish to watch English style football which may show a prejudice it does not make them anti-Canadian. We're still working on that style and the point should be that we're all contributing on making that a successful style made up of different influences.

I'm sorry this what I read coming in here that prompted my response. Boycotting of TFC for not taking on Italian player into the academy, not liking the names of Coaches, not liking the names of the players. This sounds fairly anti-Canadian to me. No one disputed any of these claims. I'm not the one that brought out xenophobic undertones I just pointed out the prejudice.


If these influential Italian ex-pats are mostly angry over TFC Academy--which is very good and none of their business anyway, it seems like trying to keep Gilardino away might some kind of revenge f*** for not looking harder at certain youth clubs in the city, or not taking on certain Italian teens, perhaps even directly from Italy who have no shot there.


I have heard some people who have long history's in the Italian Torontonian community being very negative of TFC as an organization.


.. but nothing in tfc from the name to the coaches, and the players ( excluding Danny Dichio who was a mix of Italian and Brit football perfect for this city) is from that tradition.

But at this point I'll step away.

Fort York Redcoat
11-19-2013, 10:13 AM
I'm sorry this what I read coming in here that prompted my response. Boycotting of TFC for not taking on Italian player into the academy, not liking the names of Coaches, not liking the names of the players. This sounds fairly anti-Canadian to me. No one disputed any of these claims. I'm not the one that brought out xenophobic undertones I just pointed out the prejudice.


But at this point I'll step away.



Look again.

That first quote wasn't trane and was speculation.

The second one is hearsay and really not surprising or arguable at this point. Every community has a reason to be negative of the organization amongst ourselves. The question is when do we try and break that negative cycle.

And the last quote you've misread. It notes the name, coaches, and players. It's not a reference to the names OF the coaches etc.

And the reason no one is disputing you is because of the conclusions you are jumping to.




I want everyone to enjoy their local but everyone should also feel represented at one point or another. Losing just makes it easier for those not invested to stay away.

Kaz
11-19-2013, 10:44 AM
Look again.

That first quote wasn't trane and was speculation.

The second one is hearsay and really not surprising or arguable at this point. Every community has a reason to be negative of the organization amongst ourselves. The question is when do we try and break that negative cycle.

And the last quote you've misread. It notes the name, coaches, and players. It's not a reference to the names OF the coaches etc.

And the reason no one is disputing you is because of the conclusions you are jumping to.




I want everyone to enjoy their local but everyone should also feel represented at one point or another. Losing just makes it easier for those not invested to stay away.

I didn't miss read anything Trane is referring to the Coach and Players not being Italian enough as well as the Name. AC Toronto that is ok. Toronto FC no good too British.
And the first quote is what I'm referring to not being disputed, in fact I read it as Trane basically confirming the thought behind that original post, as soon as I suggest the Italian community maybe prejudice against Canadian Football if it isn't Italian enough for them, I got called Xenophobic (ignoring the rest of my post) If Trane had issue with the first quote he should have gone at that.. but no one disputed that speculation.

And the combination prompted my first post.


because I want people living in Canada who want to be here, and are proud of Canada and all Canadians no matter what nation they started in. I don't care if you are Sikh, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Europeans, Asian, South Asian, Middle Eastern, African, Afrikaans, South American, Mexican, Caribbean, a Pacific Islander, from the Land down under or Hobbit Island or anything else I missed.. (except the Dutch no Dutch be cool ;) ) I want a winning team. Apparently this makes me xenophobic in the eyes some. I call it being a multi-cultural Canadian and espousing Canadian values.
How is wanting a Toronto FC that represents Toronto and the GTA, all of the GTA not just 3.8% of it, xenophobic.

ag futbol
11-19-2013, 11:20 AM
Leiweke spoke of changing the culture of TFC, and the best way he can do that is to appoint a team president and a director of football (could be 2 different guys, or one guy with strong work ethic) who are the best talent identifiers in North America.

I'm more convinced every year that a Director of Football who knows what kind of football and tactical system the team should play and can identify the players who can play in that system is the most important position in an MLS team. Because of tight salary cap and weak scouting infrastructure, the guy who can identify another team's garbage player and use him to advantage in his system on a cheap or reasonable wage is crucial to winning. He works with a director of scouting who manages the network of scouts all over the world.

The coach implements the tactics, day to day training and is responsible for man management. If the coach can't get the results, another coach who can work in the system that the director of football wants to be used is hired. The manager should have an input on what players he wants, but ultimately, it is the director of football who makes the player signings. So, the coach becomes more replaceable, but the director of football is not.

And there are only 2 guys in MLS right now that have proven to be best talent identifiers in MLS. Bruce Arena and Garth Lagerwey. If I was Leiweke, I'd do whatever I can to grab one of the two. And if Nelsen can't work for these guys, turf him.

Otherwise if and when Nelsen gets turfed, (and it sounds like Nelsen don't plan on staying with TFC for too long, at least that's my vibe off of him) we're going to have another roster turnover when a new manager with new tactical system comes in. I hear Nelsen is on a 2 yr contract. Can anyone confirm?
I think oscar pareja deserves to be in that coversation. He built the roster that went to the MLS cup finals and seems to have quickly turned around colorado. Although I conceed he's probably slightly less proven or half a level below the two guys you listed.

Agree 100% with the post. TFC has never been able to properly scout talent, we need a fix.

trane
11-19-2013, 11:56 AM
I didn't miss read anything Trane is referring to the Coach and Players not being Italian enough as well as the Name. AC Toronto that is ok. Toronto FC no good too British.
And the first quote is what I'm referring to not being disputed, in fact I read it as Trane basically confirming the thought behind that original post, as soon as I suggest the Italian community maybe prejudice against Canadian Football if it isn't Italian enough for them, I got called Xenophobic (ignoring the rest of my post) If Trane had issue with the first quote he should have gone at that.. but no one disputed that speculation.

And the combination prompted my first post.

Apparently this makes me xenophobic in the eyes some. I call it being a multi-cultural Canadian and espousing Canadian values.
How is wanting a Toronto FC that represents Toronto and the GTA, all of the GTA not just 3.8% of it, xenophobic.

That is exactly what I said "the Coach and Players not being Italian enough as well as the Name. AC Toronto that is ok. Toronto FC no good too British. "

I did not say that Danny Dichio's dad is a Milanista, I said that Dichio is a Milanista. And yes I hate him for being a Milanista. I hate Milanista's and people from Milan and from Northern Italy, as much as I hate Canada and everything British. You got me figured out. I was not just saying that people who grew up with Serie A do not find Toronto FC attractive, no I was saying Italians like me hate TFC, because it is not Italian.

trane
11-19-2013, 12:00 PM
For the record I a not offended or angry. Just a bit amazed to were Kaz is taking it.


Kas you are reading what you want to read. Good job.


I just read this part. 3.8 of the GTA???? I just saw that, there is still about 500,000 first generation Italians (immigrants from Italy) in Toronto alone, since Toronto is about 4 Million, that is closer to 25 %. My math may be wrong.

Fort York Redcoat
11-19-2013, 12:06 PM
I didn't miss read anything Trane is referring to the Coach and Players not being Italian enough as well as the Name. AC Toronto that is ok. Toronto FC no good too British.
And the first quote is what I'm referring to not being disputed, in fact I read it as Trane basically confirming the thought behind that original post, as soon as I suggest the Italian community maybe prejudice against Canadian Football if it isn't Italian enough for them, I got called Xenophobic (ignoring the rest of my post) If Trane had issue with the first quote he should have gone at that.. but no one disputed that speculation.

And the combination prompted my first post.

Apparently this makes me xenophobic in the eyes some. I call it being a multi-cultural Canadian and espousing Canadian values.
How is wanting a Toronto FC that represents Toronto and the GTA, all of the GTA not just 3.8% of it, xenophobic.


No. It's the mentality that everyone should do what we want or get out of the country that would be considered xenophobic. This is derailing the discussion. Let's move on.



All of us.