TFC Culture vs Winning

[inheavensince07]

Hey gents and ladies .. I decided to get back on RPB for the first time since 09 .. I am still a big fan of TFC but as most of you know it gets harder and harder to stay loyal to this club.. Even saying I still support them sounds crazy knowing how pathetic their record and organization have been .

Supporter demands
#1 fire Nelson .. He has shown nothing to indicate he knows how to coach .. bad choices on players and tactics
#2 re market this team .. don't know about you but this garbage with that chick and all the facebook posts etc are just ridiculous
#3 re engage or re discover the supporters that once walked the grounds .. That place was awesome and it should have been embraced by TFC . IMO they wanted full control and basically killed a huge chunk of atmosphere that was there .
#4 keep on track with pricing discounts / espcially for us year oners

anyways just some thoughts .. I have many more but ya know ....

wanted to introduce myself and great to see so many of us still on boards

Cheers

[Phil]

Hey!

Welcome to the boards, happy to see you take the time to participate :)

I hear you on the list. Number 3 stands out to me. We have seen so many good guys & girls that eventually got frustrated with the incompetence that runs this team give up and walk away. Most of them won't be back until some progress is made on the field and in the operations side - we are all desperate for some 'hope' at this point. Flashy DP's won't cut it, that is part of the issue that was created by previous regimes. They need a full team with a vision about how they want to play, not a collective of footballers that are here for a paycheck.

[TOBOR !]

You need to change the thread title. This is not what it says on the tin.

[inheavensince07]

sorry about that .. My thoughts were we need a better culture in order to win ..

[inheavensince07]

You need to change the thread title. This is not what it says on the tin.

why do I need to change thread title ?/ and to what ?

[TOBOR !]

I thought we'd be talking about current club culture, and how it prevents us from winning.

This is more of a lament about how much fun it was in the old days.

edit - anyway, thread title, it's no big deal - I was just sayin'. Welcome.

[inheavensince07]

Thanks Tobor .. I will keep in mind next time .. think I will just stick to commenting on other threads rather then starting them .. Just wanted to say hey o ..

appreciate the heads up tho
cheers

[TOBOR !]

Thanks Tobor .. I will keep in mind next time .. think I will just stick to commenting on other threads rather then starting them .. Just wanted to say hey o ..

appreciate the heads up tho
cheers

oh, whatever. sheesh.

Tell you what. Whenever you see a post like mine upthread, just treat it as a throw-away comment and move on.

Don't get bogged down in discussing the actual thread, rather than what you want to talk about (like me and you are doing here - which is stupid).

And do toughen up. It's the internet.

[Mark in Ottawa]

Welcome back. And just because the team sucks and the atmosphere is not what it once was ...
you can still become a member of the RPB and show the team that they have a core of footy supporters.

Supporters who may be out there wanting good football and looking somewhere else to find it.
Result = less fanatic support and less $$ for MLSE's bottom line.

[Cashcleaner]

Hey gents and ladies .. I decided to get back on RPB for the first time since 09 .. I am still a big fan of TFC but as most of you know it gets harder and harder to stay loyal to this club.. Even saying I still support them sounds crazy knowing how pathetic their record and organization have been .

Supporter demands
#1 fire Nelson .. He has shown nothing to indicate he knows how to coach .. bad choices on players and tactics
#2 re market this team .. don't know about you but this garbage with that chick and all the facebook posts etc are just ridiculous
#3 re engage or re discover the supporters that once walked the grounds .. That place was awesome and it should have been embraced by TFC . IMO they wanted full control and basically killed a huge chunk of atmosphere that was there .
#4 keep on track with pricing discounts / especially for us year oners

anyways just some thoughts .. I have many more but ya know ....

wanted to introduce myself and great to see so many of us still on boards

Cheers

I don't know if Nelsen is really the obstacle that many may think he is. He has the support of Leiweke and we do know that him and Payne didn't see eye to eye. I think a season without someone constantly looking over his shoulder may be exactly what Nelsen really needs. It's a tough prediction to make, granted, but we do know that he was unhappy with a lot of the micro-managing going on under Payne's tenure.

TFC absolutely needs to be re-marketed and perhaps re-branded. Reputation is key in business, and perhaps moreso in the business of sports. Right now, TFC's reputation is so incredibly tarnished, we've likely missed out on more than a handful of player acquisitions because of exactly that. As for the fans, this club is a laughing stock in a city that already has its fair share of mediocre sports teams. It's the new GM's job to establish a good internal culture that will entice players here and hopefully he will do just that - but we also need to bring people back to BMO Field and I actually think that will be just as much a challenge.

If I were a man in the marketing department, I would create a new marketing program for TFC and simply name it: JUST FOOTBALL. Everything from TV adverts to content on the website to what's going on on gameday will be almost entirely focused on the game, the team, and the people cheering and supporting. No more silly corporate partnerships and promotions other than the absolute essentials. You know what sticks out most in my mind when I remember my days watching Hibs play in Edinburgh? I walked up to the office, bought my ticket, walked through the gate, sang with my fellow supporters, watched the game, and left. I'm not saying there's no time for the odd 50/50 raffle or anything like that, but at BMO Field, the moment we walk in we are bombarded with a metric assload of crap that has nothing to do with why we are there. TFC Mastercard sign-ups, KIA cars and trucks on display, incredibly overpriced concessions, and all the rest. This club has whored itself out to pretty much anyone, and that really bothers me because it's not like they're hurting for money in any way.

As for pricing, I completely agree that the club can't go back to the ridiculously high ticket prices from a few years back. There is absolutely no justification for having TFC ticket prices exceeding or even matching those of some very major clubs in Europe who are superior in every way from the quality of the venue to the level of talent on the pitch.

[Haddy]

^ I couldn't have said it better. You win, Cash.

[ProfessorDamage]

If I were a man in the marketing department, I would create a new marketing program for TFC and simply name it: JUST FOOTBALL. Everything from TV adverts to content on the website to what's going on on gameday will be almost entirely focused on the game, the team, and the people cheering and supporting. No more silly corporate partnerships and promotions other than the absolute essentials. You know what sticks out most in my mind when I remember my days watching Hibs play in Edinburgh? I walked up to the office, bought my ticket, walked through the gate, sang with my fellow supporters, watched the game, and left. I'm not saying there's no time for the odd 50/50 raffle or anything like that, but at BMO Field, the moment we walk in we are bombarded with a metric assload of crap that has nothing to do with why we are there. TFC Mastercard sign-ups, KIA cars and trucks on display, incredibly overpriced concessions, and all the rest. This club has whored itself out to pretty much anyone, and that really bothers me because it's not like they're hurting for money in any way.


You're forgetting who owns the club, and also that the vast majority of the audience does not sit in the supporter sections. As far as MLSE is concerned, supporters are a loss leader. They complain the most, pay the least, and also expect the most. Everyone else is less committed to showing up every week, so there's more audience churn, but they also spend more on merch, buy more than just beer, and don't mind losing nearly as much as supporters do. As well, all the sponsors and advertisers who pay money to advertise at BMO Field are paying to advertise to the "everyone else" crowd, and not just the supporters. Winning is good because more people show up, but they don't really give two shits what supporters think.

[OgtheDim]

Ur right they don't care how supporters think. They do care how supporters feel.

You don't think they've noticed how small the supporter section has gotten?

Or how little energy is emanating from it?

And compare that to SKC and other places where the atmosphere brings in money.

They care how supporters feel, because they want that area to bop and create an atmosphere people will like.


The marketing guys need to go two streams on this - a) for the supporters and b) for all the rest

[Super]

Supporters may be a loss leader in direct terms, but you're forgetting the impact lack of atmosphere has on the game day experience. Don't forget what brought thousands and thousands of people to BMO in the first place. It wasn't the fantastic game play on the plastic pitch. It was the atmosphere. TFC knew this and used the image of the supporter to sell even more tickets. Now that the supporters have pretty much left, it's not a fun experience at BMO anymore. The argument that supporters are loss leaders is definitely not shared around the world. Supporters are part of the overall brand of any club, and they help to make your club look big and important.

[QBall]

sorry about that .. My thoughts were we need a better culture in order to win ..

Really? I thought our problems were the lack of talent and leadership. Having the stands at the next game as they were back in 2007 in terms of capacity and energy isn't going to change the product on the field. Continued mediocrity has a habit of sucking people's will (just ask any NY Islanders fan), however you're not going to fix a broken vase by cheering at it.

[Yohan]

I think TL, like most MLS/team execs, want some sort of hybrid cheerleader/soccer mom customers. I bet MLSE has a laboratory creating some zombie mind altering chemicals for this lol

[inheavensince07]

Really? I thought our problems were the lack of talent and leadership. Having the stands at the next game as they were back in 2007 in terms of capacity and energy isn't going to change the product on the field. Continued mediocrity has a habit of sucking people's will (just ask any NY Islanders fan), however you're not going to fix a broken vase by cheering at it.

yes leadership is terrible for sure top to bottom .. You don't think atmosphere helps a team succeed ??

[TOBOR !]

yes leadership is terrible for sure top to bottom .. You don't think atmosphere helps a team succeed ??

Not if the last seven years is anything to go by.

[OgtheDim]

I think TL, like most MLS/team execs, want some sort of hybrid cheerleader/soccer mom customers.....

That's pretty much the opposite of where MLS is marketing to.

[Beach_Red]

I think TL, like most MLS/team execs, want some sort of hybrid cheerleader/soccer mom customers. I bet MLSE has a laboratory creating some zombie mind altering chemicals for this lol

I think the rest of MLS realize the league has leveled off -- that's why all the new stadiums are under 25,000. It will probably remain at this level for a couple of decades.

[QBall]

yes leadership is terrible for sure top to bottom .. You don't think atmosphere helps a team succeed ??

Atmosphere in the stands? Not really. It might give them a boost, but no amount of cheering is going to make a bunch of players who don't like eachother or who have to work in a turbulent or poisonous environment perform any better. I think the atmosphere in the locker room is more important than the atmosphere outside of it, and the fans have no control about the atmosphere in the locker room.

[Haddy]

I think the rest of MLS realize the league has leveled off -- that's why all the new stadiums are under 25,000. It will probably remain at this level for a couple of decades.

I think they realize they've put in place acceptable stadia for the current level of quality on the pitch. Now they're going to focus on two things: remaining expansion and raising the quality of the product even more.

The only challenge MLS still has is its television ratings. Probably the best solution is to give the viewers something prettier to watch and change the perception of the league....again.

Once they succeed at increased TV ratings and revenue, there will be more demand for tickets and eventually stadiums will expand in small increments.

[Beach_Red]

I think they realize they've put in place acceptable stadia for the current level of quality on the pitch. Now they're going to focus on two things: remaining expansion and raising the quality of the product even more.

The only challenge MLS still has is its television ratings. Probably the best solution is to give the viewers something prettier to watch and change the perception of the league....again.

Once they succeed at increased TV ratings and revenue, there will be more demand for tickets and eventually stadiums will expand in small increments.

Yes, I agree. But I think the TV ratings have likely leveled out, too. This is the number of soccer fans in North America willing to watch MLS games. To increase the size of the audience now will probably require getting fans of other sports to watch and that is going to be very difficult.

[jloome]

Not if the last seven years is anything to go by.
Nuuk Nyuk. Let's hear it for the comedy robot folks, he's here all week.

[jloome]

Yes, I agree. But I think the TV ratings have likely leveled out, too. This is the number of soccer fans in North America willing to watch MLS games. To increase the size of the audience now will probably require getting fans of other sports to watch and that is going to be very difficult.
respectfully disagree. Most hardcore fans I know of Serie A and EPL still won't give Mls a second look,and most people in NA have an easier time making that decision due to their distance from a supportable club with a suitably professional atmosphere

[Shakes McQueen]

yes leadership is terrible for sure top to bottom .. You don't think atmosphere helps a team succeed ??

I think atmosphere can give a team a little push, but it won't turn a bad team into a good one - or even a mediocre one.

QBall is also right, that a lot of will from the fans has been sucked away by the last seven years. At least the Leafs can (and shamelessly do) lean on past glories, and entire generations of fans handing the baton to one another. TFC has no glory, little history, and what history there is, is lots of pain and empty promises. That tends to sap enthusiasm from your average fan in the stands.

Plus, despite all of this, TFC still isn't an overly cheap ticket.

- Scott

[Beach_Red]

respectfully disagree. Most hardcore fans I know of Serie A and EPL still won't give Mls a second look,and most people in NA have an easier time making that decision due to their distance from a supportable club with a suitably professional atmosphere

Yes, I think you're right that most NA fans have an easier time because of their distance to teams they would prefer to be supporting. That's what makes up the MLS fans now.

My question is, once you get beyond those people how many more fans can MLS get?

[jloome]

Yes, I think you're right that most NA fans have an easier time because of their distance to teams they would prefer to be supporting. That's what makes up the MLS fans now.

My question is, once you get beyond those people how many more fans can MLS get?

ideally they shoot to get the euro hardcores in other cities as well, at which point you're seriously challenging the big 3

[Beach_Red]

ideally they shoot to get the euro hardcores in other cities as well, at which point you're seriously challenging the big 3

You think so? Are there really that many Euro hardcores in Kansas City and Dallas and Denver? I hope you're right, but I think to get anywhere near the kind of TV ratings that the big 3 get (let alone NCAA football and basketball) will take an awful lot of viewers who've never seen a soccer game.

[backbeat]

ideally they shoot to get the euro hardcores in other cities as well, at which point you're seriously challenging the big 3

there are still LOTS of them in toronto

I was at a company event the other day - we were the Red team -so i wore a TFC golf shirt - i got flack throughout on either, 'you still watch them, they're crap' but many more who were avid football fans and watched PL, Serie A etc. with comments of 'i've tried to watch MLS but it's so bad, no control' or 'i went to a game or 2, the atmosphere was great but the football was horrible'

i spoke football with dozens of them - agreeing with the frustration but saying the product is entertaining but mainly it's my/our home team and i love that and that the league is growing technically stronger every year and will be a competitive force in the next 10 years - there are a few who want to re-check it out

all i can say from this and just living in this city through World Cups is that there is a MASSIVE market to tap into...MASSIVE...

[Cashcleaner]

You're forgetting who owns the club, and also that the vast majority of the audience does not sit in the supporter sections. As far as MLSE is concerned, supporters are a loss leader. They complain the most, pay the least, and also expect the most. Everyone else is less committed to showing up every week, so there's more audience churn, but they also spend more on merch, buy more than just beer, and don't mind losing nearly as much as supporters do. As well, all the sponsors and advertisers who pay money to advertise at BMO Field are paying to advertise to the "everyone else" crowd, and not just the supporters. Winning is good because more people show up, but they don't really give two shits what supporters think.

Yes, you are absolutely right about supporters in that we pay the least and expect the most; but we help sell the team with our presence, and there is a very real dollar amount that can be attached to our activities which the club reaps. Remember, we were basically selling the club for its first four years or so. The supporters were featured heavily on the website, billboards, and newspaper ads. Even today when I talk about TFC to people who don't really follow the team or MLS, the first thing they usually mention is the supporters. And on top of that, I would wager that the supporters spend far much more on merch than the more casual fans - something the club undoubtedly notices as well.

[Suds]

You're forgetting who owns the club, and also that the vast majority of the audience does not sit in the supporter sections. As far as MLSE is concerned, supporters are a loss leader. They complain the most, pay the least, and also expect the most. Everyone else is less committed to showing up every week, so there's more audience churn, but they also spend more on merch, buy more than just beer, and don't mind losing nearly as much as supporters do. As well, all the sponsors and advertisers who pay money to advertise at BMO Field are paying to advertise to the "everyone else" crowd, and not just the supporters. Winning is good because more people show up, but they don't really give two shits what supporters think.

Agreed. But look how that's worked out for them.

And TFC need to understand, if they don't already, that not all "supporters" sit in the south end. Plenty of SSH's who may not be affiliated with a particular group would still think of themselves as supporters. They cheer, sing, come to every game, travel, and own the more expensive seats at BMO.

Supporters may may be a pain in the ass and many may sit in the south end, but they MAY also provide the best margin on revenue. We buy the whole season every shit year. Attend every game. Buy merch, beer, etc. And they really don't need to spend a dollar to get supporters to do that. With casuals and soccer moms they have to spend on marketing to sell each seat for each game. You may still get the same revenue, but your COGS just wen through the roof and pissed away margin/profit. The supporters will also drive that organic grassroots marketing and goodwill for the club - for free. Casuals and soccer moms will not.


On the topic of culture - I don't think TFC still understands the footy supporter, culture, or how to build a club. Until they do it will be more of the same.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Saying TFC don't care what supporters think is jilted talk. That or just lazily taking our entire history and generalizing. I can say they do care and want to work with us as much as will make them a success while respecting supporters POV (which are an extreme minority POV when compared to other NA sports fans).

To say they don't care about hardcore support is to say that MLSE doesn't care about getting into the playoffs or that the players don't care about winning. It may not always be for the noble, altruistic reason the supporters dream of but that is incredibly rare and special when it happens.

[jloome]

there are still LOTS of them in toronto

I was at a company event the other day - we were the Red team -so i wore a TFC golf shirt - i got flack throughout on either, 'you still watch them, they're crap' but many more who were avid football fans and watched PL, Serie A etc. with comments of 'i've tried to watch MLS but it's so bad, no control' or 'i went to a game or 2, the atmosphere was great but the football was horrible'

i spoke football with dozens of them - agreeing with the frustration but saying the product is entertaining but mainly it's my/our home team and i love that and that the league is growing technically stronger every year and will be a competitive force in the next 10 years - there are a few who want to re-check it out

all i can say from this and just living in this city through World Cups is that there is a MASSIVE market to tap into...MASSIVE...


it's true in every city with an immigrant base; Edmonton has about 100,000 East Indian folks who are EPL mad, and not too many whitecaps or tfc fans; I don't imagine it's much different outside the most rural US heartland.

[Yohan]

it's true in every city with an immigrant base; Edmonton has about 100,000 East Indian folks who are EPL mad, and not too many whitecaps or tfc fans; I don't imagine it's much different outside the most rural US heartland.
it takes a while to build a fan base, though I think it's easier to sell the game to people who don't know, or haven't seen much soccer before, so they'll approach MLS without preconception.

I love what KC and RSL are doing, and they don't exist in hot bed of soccer

[Beach_Red]

it's true in every city with an immigrant base; Edmonton has about 100,000 East Indian folks who are EPL mad, and not too many whitecaps or tfc fans; I don't imagine it's much different outside the most rural US heartland.

Maybe, but I think we underestimate the competition for that market. There's a lot of pressure in the US for people to become American and baseball and the NFL are dominant - and are marketing themselves pretty heavily to every market.

But really what got me thinking about this was your statement about sports reporters disliking soccer. I've seen that, too. But from my NA perspective I've also seen soccer not being as inviting to fans who don't already know the game. This idea that there is a unique "football culture" is true - but we don't seem to consider that it may not be such a good thing for increasing the fan base here. I think the MLS may have started out thinking it could someday be as big as baseball and the NFL but has, for now anyway, accepted that their reach doesn't may not extend much beyond people who want to be part of that culture. And that culture, like all cultures, is tough for people who aren't already a part of it to become a part of.

[james]

i think a major renovation of BMO field (without the Argos moving in) to update it to stadiums to the level of perhaps NY's or kc's new stadiums. That could interest new and old fans to check the stadium out, and perhaps that would be a great time to reconnect with supporters to showcase the great atmosphere of BMO field. I also think a lot of people are sick of getting rained on!

[BuSaPuNk]

^ Hell No! I love rain games. It brings the best out of us I think. It's like a party in the rain. The Columbus game it seemed to bring us up a notch and we bagged two goals because of it.

[Haddy]

^ Hell No! I love rain games. It brings the best out of us I think. It's like a party in the rain. The Columbus game it seemed to bring us up a notch and we bagged two goals because of it.

A partial covering won't keep everyone dry. I'd guess the second deck on west side will be okay but those in the lower bowl will probably still need ponchos. Very curious to see what roof design they went with.

[QBall]

i think a major renovation of BMO field (without the Argos moving in) to update it to stadiums to the level of perhaps NY's or kc's new stadiums. That could interest new and old fans to check the stadium out, and perhaps that would be a great time to reconnect with supporters to showcase the great atmosphere of BMO field. I also think a lot of people are sick of getting rained on!

Or they could just improve the product on the field. I'm guessing that would cost less than $100 million. Maybe.

[james]

Or they could just improve the product on the field. I'm guessing that would cost less than $100 million. Maybe.

True, but are MLSE capable of doing such a thing? :facepalm:

[inheavensince07]

MLSE has loads of lip service but as of now year 7 dead we can only wait and see what next year brings .. Unless they get lucky with a complete over haul and things go well we are looking at another shitty rebuilding year .. 2 or even 3 DP's will even make things worse if they shit the bed .. I am super frustrated watching teams like MTL leap over us .. TL most likely full of a lot of corp hot air is my guess go leafs go is his motto

[Fort York Redcoat]

MLSE has loads of lip service but as of now year 7 dead we can only wait and see what next year brings .. Unless they get lucky with a complete over haul and things go well we are looking at another shitty rebuilding year .. 2 or even 3 DP's will even make things worse if they shit the bed .. I am super frustrated watching teams like MTL leap over us .. TL most likely full of a lot of corp hot air is my guess go leafs go is his motto

I think you hit every negative generalization about this team one can find on fb with that post.


You're not wrong about the likelyhood of a building year. Some of our DP's won't get here till midseason.
TL is go leafs go but that doesn't mean he doesn't want our team to succeed.
What has MLSE said lately? I don't really pay attention to what the actual board says. They don't have many press releases as a group.

[QBall]

True, but are MLSE capable of doing such a thing? :facepalm:

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. If they keep hiring everyone on the planet to play for TFC eventually they'll come up with a winning product. Keep in mind TFC is a corporation and cannot die (they can be killed however).

[jloome]

I think you hit every negative generalization about this team one can find on fb with that post.


You're not wrong about the likelyhood of a building year. Some of our DP's won't get here till midseason.
TL is go leafs go but that doesn't mean he doesn't want our team to succeed.
What has MLSE said lately? I don't really pay attention to what the actual board says. They don't have many press releases as a group.

Id save the faith in Tl And RN for after hey actually do something. Their stated intent means nothing.

[inheavensince07]

I think you hit every negative generalization about this team one can find on fb with that post.


You're not wrong about the likelyhood of a building year. Some of our DP's won't get here till midseason.
TL is go leafs go but that doesn't mean he doesn't want our team to succeed.
What has MLSE said lately? I don't really pay attention to what the actual board says. They don't have many press releases as a group.

sorry for my massive frustration with this team for almost a decade ... I feel like I am right on the money but it my opinion

[Haddy]

Keep in mind TFC is a corporation and cannot die (they can be killed however).

I saw that movie.

http://www.stuffistumbledupon.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Highlander-meme-cute-baby-meme-there-can-be-only-one-quote_thumb.jpg

[Fort York Redcoat]

Id save the faith in Tl And RN for after hey actually do something. Their stated intent means nothing.

How do I faith? j/k but really saving faith kinda sorta negates the process. I can't feel disappointed or letdown until the promises in question have actually fallen through/broken.


sorry for my massive frustration with this team for almost a decade ... I feel like I am right on the money but it my opinion

You're entitled to have an opinion as everyone does in equal measure. I'd just suggest to concentrate your frustration on the specific causes if it really riles you. The lack of success should frustrate anyone who cares.