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View Full Version : What the fuck next? TFC's future.



trane
10-04-2013, 09:32 AM
For the first time since 2007 I am unsure about my feeling about TFC. I am no longer angry, still disappointed. But perhaps 2014 will truly be a new beginning.


I always want to try to support this team with the passion I had for it in 2007-2010. I think I can if we are given even the smallest signs of a new direction. But this may be MLSE last chance.

Derko
10-04-2013, 09:42 AM
I can hope that there is a real effort put in by MLSE to turn this thing around, and 2014 season is the last chance.

BuSaPuNk
10-04-2013, 09:43 AM
I think a lot of patience has run thin. People are at a breaking point. January is a big make or break with this club.

If TL and RN can bring in anything of substance during the window I see a lot of people cutting there losses. Now ill still be here and I know all of us will be. It's just up to them to keep the inbetweeners in there seats moving forward.

Canary10
10-04-2013, 09:48 AM
For the first time since 2007 I am unsure about my feeling about TFC. I am no longer angry, still disappointed. But perhaps 2014 will truly be a new beginning.


I always want to try to support this team with the passion I had for it in 2007-2010. I think I can if we are given even the smallest signs of a new direction. But this may be MLSE last chance.

I feel the same way. I've missed the last two home games. In fairness, the first was because of a death in the family. Last week though, I did a marathon training run in the morning, and just couldn't be bothered going to watch TFC play DC United. Ended up watching it on the couch instead.

I just don't see any real direction. At least under Winter we knew what he was trying to do. I really don't know what we're trying to do now. The team has no identity. It's hard to keep caring.

Phil
10-04-2013, 09:51 AM
In one way, it really is a new start because of the cap clearning and contract standings they have with existing players.

I will be very sad to see Frei go, that one hurts.
Danny K just couldn't hold his fitness. Ecks - terrible contract and it seems clear they are going to move him or buy it out.

For those reasons I am very curious to see how they do in the next window and season.

I don't like this bull shit talk with the Argos.
I am unsure if Ryan is the right coach for this team.
I am unsure that the new GM is right.
I am a little scared of all the DP talk - we have been there and done that for 7 years now and throwing out names to somehow satisfy fans has been overdone in this market.

Its time for them to lay proper groundwork on scouts, academy and football operations. Stop worrying about marketing and flash, start working on the team and the product on the field. This upcoming window has way too much hype on it that I fear they will have no hope of ever living up to.

That being said, we're still here.

TFC07
10-04-2013, 10:02 AM
In one way, it really is a new start because of the cap clearning and contract standings they have with existing players.

I will be very sad to see Frei go, that one hurts.
Danny K just couldn't hold his fitness. Ecks - terrible contract and it seems clear they are going to move him or buy it out.

For those reasons I am very curious to see how they do in the next window and season.

I don't like this bull shit talk with the Argos.
I am unsure if Ryan is the right coach for this team.
I am unsure that the new GM is right.
I am a little scared of all the DP talk - we have been there and done that for 7 years now and throwing out names to somehow satisfy fans has been overdone in this market.

Its time for them to lay proper groundwork on scouts, academy and football operations. Stop worrying about marketing and flash, start working on the team and the product on the field. This upcoming window has way too much hype on it that I fear they will have no hope of ever living up to.

That being said, we're still here.

The talk is coming from fans and media! I highly doubt Tim Lewieke and TFC FO are thinking about Argos right now.

Tim and co are more concern with signings than anything else.

As for Nelsen, I feel like we need an assistant coach (tactic expert) who has experience managing to guide Nelsen. GM role is limited now, so I am not going to be too concern about hiring a newbie.

eustacchio
10-04-2013, 10:04 AM
The talk is coming from fans and media! I highly doubt Tim Lewieke and TFC FO are thinking about Argos right now.

Tim and co are more concern with signings than anything else.

As for Nelsen, I feel like we need an assistant coach (tactic expert) who has experience managing to guide Nelsen. GM is role is limited, so I am not going to be too concern about hiring a newbie.

I hope you're right.

TFC07
10-04-2013, 10:08 AM
I hope you're right.

This is what I got from breakfast and BBQ meets. Tim does have a plan how to build this team.

So far, Tim has done things to fix up TFC FO on time (before season ended) to give new TFC FO a chance to start working beginning of off-season. So I am going to give TFC a chance to follow through their plan in off-season. I don't expect to see DP's playing for us beginning of the season, but at least we should know by then who's coming over after World Cup.

OgtheDim
10-04-2013, 10:10 AM
I get a bit worried of the long term vision when I hear that Darrel Russel will probably start this week, possibly instead of Osorio. Although I agree with not starting people who are simply not ready (Bekker), if we are going to look to the future, we can not be starting dudes who will not be here next year just because they had a couple of, for them, good games.

Is the long term vision to be a bunch of plumbers who grab spots?

ManUtd4ever
10-04-2013, 10:13 AM
I can honestly say that if the current regime can't right the ship over the next couple of years, I'll be done as a seasons ticket holder.

I haven't been impressed with Tim Leiweke's influence on TFC thus far, but I will try to give him the benefit of the doubt based on his pedigree as a MLS executive.

Fort York Redcoat
10-04-2013, 10:18 AM
I get a bit worried of the long term vision when I hear that Darrel Russel will probably start this week, possibly instead of Osorio. Although I agree with not starting people who are simply not ready (Bekker), if we are going to look to the future, we can not be starting dudes who will not be here next year just because they had a couple of, for them, good games.

Is the long term vision to be a bunch of plumbers who grab spots?

That plumber is hot right now. I think this isn't a prove to play between the 2 (Russell and Osorio) but to see if Russell will stay. Osorio will get time.

Phil
10-04-2013, 10:19 AM
The talk is coming from fans and media! I highly doubt Tim Lewieke and TFC FO are thinking about Argos right now.

Tim and co are more concern with signings than anything else.

As for Nelsen, I feel like we need an assistant coach (tactic expert) who has experience managing to guide Nelsen. GM role is limited now, so I am not going to be too concern about hiring a newbie.

There is a lot of talk from the fans and media. But why did Tim L bring it up on the confrence call? MLSE are looking at evaluating the possibility the Argos could share the facility. Tim L is talking about 'mobile seats' for the field to accomodate the larger surface. It doesnt finacially make any sense for the Argos to come in but stranger things have happend. Argos are for sale from what I have read, and the 5 year deal has outs for the Argos at anytime and there is a non renewal on it.

A decision will be made in the next 5 years and the fact that MLSE are talking about it and the idea that the grounds won't be compromised goes way beyond hype from fans and media. It sounds like they are planning on it.

TOBOR !
10-04-2013, 10:23 AM
See, when they hired Klinsmann and subsequently brought in Mariner (ugh), Winter and De Klerk it was with a footballing philosophy in mind.

The hiring (and firing) of Payne and the hiring of Leiwecke has had nothing to do with football and all to do with finances. Clear the decks for a rebuild.

Winter and De Klerk had the plan, but Mariner, Cochrane, Anselmi et al failed to manage the budget properly (Winter probably had a hand in that as well, but Mariner was supposed to be the guy sorting out the befuddling MLS salary structure).

Now we have the money guys who can sort out the finances, but who among them can give us a team to care about ?

Eh ? Eh ?

WestStandGeoff
10-04-2013, 10:25 AM
The talk is coming from fans and media! I highly doubt Tim Lewieke and TFC FO are thinking about Argos right now.

Tim and co are more concern with signings than anything else.

As for Nelsen, I feel like we need an assistant coach (tactic expert) who has experience managing to guide Nelsen. GM role is limited now, so I am not going to be too concern about hiring a newbie.

If that's the case, it would be nice for Tim and/or TFC FO to just come out and crush it. One of the reason fans and media keep talking about it is that nobody at MLSE has said anything definitive to dispel the rumours.

TFC07
10-04-2013, 10:30 AM
I think TFC can't outright say no because BMO field is owned by the City (Mayor being a huge football fan). So they can't say no to end the rumours.

I personally hope Mayor Ford isn't around when times come to decide what to do with Argos and use building permit against MLSE to force them to take Argos with them.

Wull
10-04-2013, 10:37 AM
My biggest worry right now is that we have less than a season of experience among our coach and GM. I also worry that we don't have an Arena-type who can be very subtle in implementing but also altering Leiweke's vision to make it viable

WestStandGeoff
10-04-2013, 10:52 AM
In one way, it really is a new start because of the cap clearning and contract standings they have with existing players.

I will be very sad to see Frei go, that one hurts.
Danny K just couldn't hold his fitness. Ecks - terrible contract and it seems clear they are going to move him or buy it out.

For those reasons I am very curious to see how they do in the next window and season.

I don't like this bull shit talk with the Argos.
I am unsure if Ryan is the right coach for this team.
I am unsure that the new GM is right.
I am a little scared of all the DP talk - we have been there and done that for 7 years now and throwing out names to somehow satisfy fans has been overdone in this market.

Its time for them to lay proper groundwork on scouts, academy and football operations. Stop worrying about marketing and flash, start working on the team and the product on the field. This upcoming window has way too much hype on it that I fear they will have no hope of ever living up to.

That being said, we're still here.

That's what got me the most concerned right now too. I'm worried management thinks adding a Beckham-like name (or 2) to the roster is enough to start filling seats again - I think they're right to an extent, but I don't necessarily expect them to get back a lot of ticket holders that left, instead I expect the stands to look like the first few seasons when we hosted LA, and all of a sudden the stands were filled with tourists more interested in seeing Beckham than watching (or supporting) TFC.

It also concerns me that they don't have a good appreciation of the Toronto sports market. Sure, there are enough people in the city that will come out to see a big name - just look at the crowd for the Roma match who were largely indifferent to TFC, or how many more Italians seem to show up (and cheer for) Montreal this season with the Italians they brought into their lineup. But if I look at a team like the Leafs, the players that seem to become fan favourites aren't usually the high-priced stars, but the hard working grinder - haven't been to a Leafs game in a couple years, but every time I've gone I feel like there are as many Domi and Tucker jerseys as there are Sundin and Gilmour, if not more.

I'm worried too about ditching promising young players, like Urutti, because we don't have the time for them to develop. I know there are other politics involved as Laba was seen as "Payne's guy", but it just has me thinking they are again sacrificing long term stability and success for some a slight improvement in the short term.

Phil
10-04-2013, 10:58 AM
Laba is out due to a broken toe. Hopefully they are keeping him despite being 'Payne's guy'. Urutti to me was part of KP's undoing. Many strings in there though. The DP chase (failure) the smack talk to media around the Roma match and the overall deal for Urutti all were major factors in the firing. Urutti was not really wanted by Nelsen and I think that is where Tim bought into Ryan 100% as he has his own vision as far a 'soccer' is concerned.

I see TL as a little higher than a finance guy. I do think he has a lot invested in the sport and wants it to do well but its obvious he is learning on the job and Toronto is a vastly different market than LA.

Pint
10-04-2013, 10:59 AM
I get a bit worried of the long term vision when I hear that Darrel Russel will probably start this week, possibly instead of Osorio. Although I agree with not starting people who are simply not ready (Bekker), if we are going to look to the future, we can not be starting dudes who will not be here next year just because they had a couple of, for them, good games.

Is the long term vision to be a bunch of plumbers who grab spots?

Isn't that not even possible? Russel is out based on accumulation no?

WestStandGeoff
10-04-2013, 11:04 AM
^^ Thanks Phil, yes, I did mean Urutti.

Richard
10-04-2013, 11:17 AM
The faith put into Nelson is misguided, I would not comfortable giving him the reigns with what he has shown thus far.

As it stands right now all we have are a bunch of "Yes men", Bezbatchenko is nothing more than a glorified accountant for TL.

It don't understand why TL thinks we the fans would rather have Nelson instead of Payne, in this city we have always begged for experienced coaches and GMs.

ag futbol
10-04-2013, 11:23 AM
The faith put into Nelson is misguided, I would not comfortable giving him the reigns with what he has shown thus far.

As it stands right now all we have are a bunch of "Yes men", Bezbatchenko is nothing more than a glorified accountant for TL.

Agreed. If Kevin Payne had to go, getting rid of Nelsen is a no-brainer.

Looking at what’s happened over the last couple of weeks I can’t help but be very concerned about the direction TFC is heading. I would say there is a huge risk that we will end up with the wrong choices in our search for designated players.

- Time pressure? Check.
- Inexperienced people at helm? Check.
- No solid scouts of talent? Check.
- Disclosed their approximate budget? Check.

And this gives rise to the biggest problem of them all: once this club spends its money on designated players, flexibility is severely diminished.

Red Rat
10-04-2013, 11:31 AM
ML$E have their heads so far up their own assholes that they have no idea what is coming out of their mouth.
Just sell the team and buy the Bills so you can run them to the ground.
One owner is all I want, One owner with the dream and desire to win... One

Beach_Red
10-04-2013, 11:36 AM
It also concerns me that they don't have a good appreciation of the Toronto sports market.

What concerns me is that maybe they do. Maybe there is a difference between the hockey market and the soccer market and maybe they still see a big difference between the soccer market and the MLS market.

OgtheDim
10-04-2013, 11:46 AM
Can anybody indicate what we had in terms of scouting staff before KP was fired, apart from Onstad and the odd missives from Gueverra?

From what I've heard, the new guy is building that now.

Richard
10-04-2013, 11:48 AM
Someone on this board posted a link to a scouting agency a while ago, it showed most of MLS being involved except for TFC. I would interested if TFC managed to sign up with said agency.

Canary10
10-04-2013, 12:03 PM
Someone on this board posted a link to a scouting agency a while ago, it showed most of MLS being involved except for TFC. I would interested if TFC managed to sign up with said agency.

You mean this one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

TOBOR !
10-04-2013, 12:07 PM
^ :D

aka Paul Mariner's homepage.

Canary10
10-04-2013, 12:13 PM
^ :D

aka Paul Mariner's homepage.

Oh yeah, that was Mariner's, not the one Richard referred to.

Is it this one?

http://www.designisgrowth.com/santio/people/

Richard
10-04-2013, 12:18 PM
Oh yeah, that was Mariner's, not the one Richard referred to.

Is it this one?

http://www.designisgrowth.com/santio/people/

I don't think so, it was international with top clubs like Manu, RealM as clients.

Isn't Barry MacLean like Mo's best friend back when he was still around TFC?

Haddy
10-04-2013, 12:20 PM
The talk is coming from fans and media! I highly doubt Tim Lewieke and TFC FO are thinking about Argos right now.

Tim and co are more concern with signings than anything else.

As for Nelsen, I feel like we need an assistant coach (tactic expert) who has experience managing to guide Nelsen. GM role is limited now, so I am not going to be too concern about hiring a newbie.

Leiweke started the Argos talk and continues to comment.

I was under the assumption Fran O'Leary was the assistant, who actually has his badges, to help guide Nelsen. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Sweeper
10-04-2013, 12:22 PM
Obviously putting a decent team on the field is the primary goal currently, but I hope TFC / MLSE lobbies municipal and provincial government for some decent transportation options. My choice not to renew was made while sitting in a traffic jam on each trip from KW to Toronto this year. Missing the first half of the season opener after leaving 2 1/2 hours to get to the game was a bit disheartening. I don't think Toronto / Ontario is grasping the lost revenue from the number of people saying "screw it, not going to bother trying to get there" Hopefully there will be enough people in the downtown core to support the team.

ensco
10-04-2013, 12:30 PM
I think we need to face up to some facts.

1) Wishing that Leiweke would "stand up to the Argos" is dreaming. The CFL is important to TFC's owners. They are a major sports property for TSN, and could be for Rogers. They make big money off the TV rights, and are Canadian content to boot. It is not in Bell's (or Rogers) interest to let the CFL die. Which will happen if the Argos don't solve their stadium problems. So MLSE will be inclined to help the Argos (and may well eventually buy them).

2) Leiweke is the actual GM of this team. The newly named GM has absolutely no talent identification abilities, and the Theo Epstein/Red Sox comparison that Leiweke peddled to the media is ridiculous - MLB teams have massive scouting and other talent ID infrastructure that doesn't exist in MLS. Love him, or hate him, or not sure, Leiweke is the GM.

3) Nelsen has to be gone. He is no one's guy, but more importantly he behaved abominably towards Payne, by either (i) putting out information, or (ii) allowing public comments by columnists to stand, about how he disagreed with Payne on players etc. He doesn't have the stature to do that, and frankly, it's shameful. Question is when, that's all, Cathal Kelly was right on this. Leiweke couldn't do it all at once.

Canary10
10-04-2013, 12:33 PM
I think we need to face up to some facts.

1) Wishing that Leiweke would "stand up to the Argos" is dreaming. The CFL is important to TFC's owners. They are a major sports property for TSN, and could be for Rogers. They make big money off the TV rights, and are Canadian content to boot. It is not in Bell's (or Rogers) interest to let the CFL die. Which will happen if the Argos don't solve their stadium problems. So MLSE will be inclined to help the Argos (and may well eventually buy them).

2) Leiweke is the actual GM of this team. The newly named GM has absolutely no talent identification abilities, and the Theo Epstein/Red Sox comparison that Leiweke peddled to the media is ridiculous - MLB teams have massive scouting and other talent ID infrastructure that doesn't exist in MLS. Love him, or hate him, or not sure, Leiweke is the GM.

3) Nelsen has to be gone. Question is when, that's all. Cathal Kelly was right on this. Leiweke couldn't do it all at once.

Yup on both counts I think.

flamehawk
10-04-2013, 12:36 PM
http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?5026-Amateur-Hour-insiders-united-in-criticism-of-TFC

Has anyone read this? I am feeling pretty distraught

Pint
10-04-2013, 12:44 PM
http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?5026-Amateur-Hour-insiders-united-in-criticism-of-TFC

Has anyone read this? I am feeling pretty distraught

I did read it but it is a Rollins article which makes me a little apprehensive about the validity of the comments i.e. when were they made?

I will say that since Payne was fired he has been level headed which makes me believe some of the article or at least take it with a smaller grain of salt.

ag futbol
10-04-2013, 12:47 PM
Someone on this board posted a link to a scouting agency a while ago, it showed most of MLS being involved except for TFC. I would interested if TFC managed to sign up with said agency.
I know what you're talking about, it was that online platform that provided teams with scouting resources. I believe it was Y-scout or something like that. Everyone jumped the gun with that one. There are two major platforms that teams use, TFC and the other half of MLS just happened to use that other platform along with a similar number of international clubs. They are pretty similar in what they offer.

CommradePolski
10-04-2013, 12:49 PM
Listen guys. Its pretty clear that the argos ARE coming. What Lieweke is doing is essentially making it look like he cares about us first, when in reality, he doesnt. When he joined mlse he said he was going to make them worth double within 7 years. The argos will be at bmo for 2015/6. Mark my words. We all just need to "get used to it".

ag futbol
10-04-2013, 12:59 PM
I did read it but it is a Rollins article which makes me a little apprehensive about the validity of the comments i.e. when were they made?

I will say that since Payne was fired he has been level headed which makes me believe some of the article or at least take it with a smaller grain of salt.
There are a lot of things I don't like about Rollins, but there is nothing in that piece I can find fault with.

He doesn't make up his sources as far as I can tell.

__wowza
10-04-2013, 01:01 PM
phil pretty much hit the nail on the head. so i'll hit it point by point.

frei going is going to suck, but when you look at it, it's always been this clubs curse. whenever anyone brings it up on the TFC facebook or elsewhere, i always invoke the TFC curse: we always have TWO great keepers. sutton and edwards, frei and kocic, frei and bendik. it's not our fault if one of them gets hurt and the backup (whose is obviously being paid less) has to step up and fill in. we're extremely, extremely lucky to have backups who have the ability to perform like starters. having said that, i called it two seasons ago, we should've let frei go when his trade value was at it's peak (when he was still facing the most shots in the league and improving at x2 the rate other keepers in the league were). having said that, maybe due to the coaching and lineup changes, it's better that we didn't. now it's just another contract dump.

danny k, that one just hurts because he had such promise. the dude was a beast. again, not the ideal way to end a career.

the argos talk, i've said it before and i'll say it again, if they're purchased, they'll become NFL. they're going to be owned by the two media giants in canada, NFL teams are run and funded by media coverage and revenue. to think that these two behemoths would take over and want to have a football team playing in the CFL doesn't make any sense. i can see it happening, i've heard rumbles of it happening, and i think it will eventually.

ryan being coach, still on the fence. same with the new GM. although i was pleasantly surprised that we didn't have people who asked for a coach with MLS experience immediately ask for brennan to take over coaching. it showed me that a lot of our supporters were more knowledgable than i give them credit for.

the DP talk is actually refreshing for once, and i'm glad that we've held off. in previous years we would've gone out and grabbed any big name we possibly could've to appease the fans and sell tickets. now that we're actually holding off and waiting for the right pieces to fall into place, you'd think that it shows the organization has matured at least somewhat.


it's going to be an interesting year in 2014.

Phil
10-04-2013, 01:04 PM
Listen guys. Its pretty clear that the argos ARE coming. What Lieweke is doing is essentially making it look like he cares about us first, when in reality, he doesnt. When he joined mlse he said he was going to make them worth double within 7 years. The argos will be at bmo for 2015/6. Mark my words. We all just need to "get used to it".

Its a pretty simple thing - want a roof? Tale the Argos.

I find it funny that in the first meeting I had with him, he did ask what was the one thing we want at the stadium and I said 'roof'. He laughed and said 'not going to happen'. It all is changing pretty fast. Duanes article kind of scares me too.

Canary10
10-04-2013, 01:11 PM
http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?5026-Amateur-Hour-insiders-united-in-criticism-of-TFC

Has anyone read this? I am feeling pretty distraught

I do wonder what the "long-time insider" who is complaining that "this isn't a professional environment" has been doing all these years. No doubt, other than anonymously complaining about the lack of professional environment to a blogger, he's the one professional guy in the organization.

WestStandGeoff
10-04-2013, 01:16 PM
Its a pretty simple thing - want a roof? Tale the Argos.

I find it funny that in the first meeting I had with him, he did ask what was the one thing we want at the stadium and I said 'roof'. He laughed and said 'not going to happen'. It all is changing pretty fast. Duanes article kind of scares me too.

Doesn't that fly completely in the opposite direction of what Leiweke was saying in the press less than a week ago...


But what we’ve done to you and your passion and your abuse, they ought to write a book about it. Because it’s the most disrespect I’ve seen to a fanbase in a long time and we’re going to change that.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle14602558/ (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/toronto-fc-gm-sheds-light-on-maximilian-urutti-case/article14602558/)
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/To...556/story.html (http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Toronto+shedding+light+star+player+subsidy+program/8978556/story.html)

I can't see how rearranging our soccer-specific-stadium to accommodate a CFL team is anything but disrespectful to the fanbase.

dupont
10-04-2013, 01:19 PM
There must be very serious talk about the Argos coming for TL to bring it up in the first place. Why would he say something to upset the fans unless it was a very real possibility?

Phil
10-04-2013, 01:22 PM
Doesn't that fly completely in the opposite direction of what Leiweke was saying in the press less than a week ago...



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle14602558/ (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/toronto-fc-gm-sheds-light-on-maximilian-urutti-case/article14602558/)
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/To...556/story.html (http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Toronto+shedding+light+star+player+subsidy+program/8978556/story.html)

I can't see how rearranging our soccer-specific-stadium to accommodate a CFL team is anything but disrespectful to the fanbase.

Thats my point. We are being told - no spin.

Certainly feels like spin to me.

If the Argos come in then I really need to review my seasons ticket purchase.

ManUtd4ever
10-04-2013, 01:26 PM
Barring a dramatic turn of events, Nelsen is likely nothing more than a caretaker at this point.

Pint
10-04-2013, 01:30 PM
With regard to Argos at BMO they clearly have a rendering of what the stadium would look like if they are taking it to the board next month.

This is something where they should have some fan input as to if they have "given" us enough to soften the blow of having to share our home.

Also what is the time frame for this? will it leave us without a stadium for a season and forced to play at the dome?

TFC07
10-04-2013, 01:36 PM
Leiweke started the Argos talk and continues to comment.

I was under the assumption Fran O'Leary was the assistant, who actually has his badges, to help guide Nelsen. Correct me if I'm wrong.

NCAA division 2 coach isn't quality experience. I was hoping a veteran manager who has manage professional clubs in the past.

Nelsen doesn't strike me as a good tactician, but more a man management type of manager.

Haddy
10-04-2013, 02:09 PM
With regard to Argos at BMO they clearly have a rendering of what the stadium would look like if they are taking it to the board next month.

This is something where they should have some fan input as to if they have "given" us enough to soften the blow of having to share our home.

Also what is the time frame for this? will it leave us without a stadium for a season and forced to play at the dome?

Construction would start before next season possibly and would be ongoing throughout 2014. TL says they are coordinating a way for us to remain at BMO during the process.

basically it would be completed for the 2015 season.

Haddy
10-04-2013, 02:18 PM
NCAA division 2 coach isn't quality experience. I was hoping a veteran manager who has manage professional clubs in the past.

Nelsen doesn't strike me as a good tactician, but more a man management type of manager.

When have you ever got what you hoped for with this club...other than its existence? Goes for me too. I don't know these men personally and won't guess to their true level of knowledge. I said months ago that I would give them three full transfer windows. Nelsen has two left.

Beach_Red
10-04-2013, 02:26 PM
I think we need to face up to some facts.

1) Wishing that Leiweke would "stand up to the Argos" is dreaming. The CFL is important to TFC's owners. They are a major sports property for TSN, and could be for Rogers. They make big money off the TV rights, and are Canadian content to boot. It is not in Bell's (or Rogers) interest to let the CFL die. Which will happen if the Argos don't solve their stadium problems. So MLSE will be inclined to help the Argos (and may well eventually buy them).


Right now Canadian content is really important. Bell and Rogers are fighting like mad to keep US companies out and all they can hold up as a reason for that is Canadian content, local news and the CFL, they don't have much else that gets any ratings.

Fort York Redcoat
10-04-2013, 02:34 PM
With regard to Argos at BMO they clearly have a rendering of what the stadium would look like if they are taking it to the board next month.

This is something where they should have some fan input as to if they have "given" us enough to soften the blow of having to share our home.

Also what is the time frame for this? will it leave us without a stadium for a season and forced to play at the dome?


TL has said no to a season in the dome.

Suds
10-04-2013, 02:39 PM
I have no fucking idea what's next. There is almost nothing about this club I identify with anymore.

The only thing I do identify with is the fellow supporters and maybe a couple players. Maybe because we've all been through the same shit. But as for the team - the club?? Nothing stands out for me. They have no identity. I ask anyone to tell me what TFC stands for in any fashion. How they treat supporters? Playing style? Players? Represent the city? I don't think they have any idea of who they want to be.

For the first time I'm not seeing anything from this club that tells me I should be investing my time or money.

pdogg
10-04-2013, 03:09 PM
Construction would start before next season possibly and would be ongoing throughout 2014. TL says they are coordinating a way for us to remain at BMO during the process.

basically it would be completed for the 2015 season.

Depending on the amount of renewals, they might be able to do a temporary move to the parts of the stadium they are not working on. Basically shut down the east stand, relocate them for a few months. Then when it's safe, move them back and relocate another stand. Not ideal, but better than playing at Lamport or another temporary field (Skydome? ugh...). If they got an ideal start to the schedule, they could play the first few games at the Dome while they did the major work.

But then again, I don't know anything about, construction, permits and public safety.

mowe
10-04-2013, 03:13 PM
2) Leiweke is the actual GM of this team. The newly named GM has absolutely no talent identification abilities, and the Theo Epstein/Red Sox comparison that Leiweke peddled to the media is ridiculous - MLB teams have massive scouting and other talent ID infrastructure that doesn't exist in MLS. Love him, or hate him, or not sure, Leiweke is the GM.

This is not true. Leiweke is too far up the chain to bother with being the GM of this team. What TL has opted for is a more Euro style arrangement with Nelson being the manager whose vision will shape the team. The GM will help with the cap and trades within the league, etc. It's like what LAG has with Arena and Klein or RSL with Kreis and Lagerway. There was a good article on CSN I think that pointed out that at TFC we're used to the GM being the face of the team like Mo and Payne were. But now with the Bez hiring the GM is taking a back seat like in the rest of league.

The only roster related job Leiweke has is (along with Nelson and Bez) talking to DPs and convincing them to sign here. This is Nelson's team now. And in light of that Rollins article I'm more than a little worried. I's crucial to put the right staff around Nelson. That starts with hiring an assistant with experience managing professional players (NCAA D3 isn't going to cut it).

ensco
10-04-2013, 03:49 PM
^I just don't believe any of that. I don't think Leiweke will take the back seat that ownership/execs take in the rest of this league, and I for sure don't think he is committed to Nelsen. I don't give a rat's ass what Leiweke says about Nelsen. Nelsen is not his guy and has proven that he is a backstabber.

Truth is, the GM position is somewhat vacant, given Leiweke's limited time and knowledge base? Who in god's name is doing talent evaluation here?

OgtheDim
10-04-2013, 04:19 PM
You guys make it hard to be a :fluffy:


On a more serious note, getting rid of Laba because he was a Payne signing would be a bad idea recruitment wise. Any decent striker knows he needs service and how that service gets to him; they know they need a good decent passing DM and a good decent passing AM. They are not going to come here just to sit up top and wait for the odd hoofball from Doniel Henry.

Get rid of Laba and we have to go out and get somebody to fill that spot.

ag futbol
10-04-2013, 04:43 PM
Who in god's name is doing talent evaluation here?
This is the question everyone is asking right now.

Maybe they feel they can rely on MLS central scouting like a lot of teams do? Tend to think that's incredibly flawed.

Masked Man
10-04-2013, 04:47 PM
http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?5026-Amateur-Hour-insiders-united-in-criticism-of-TFC

Has anyone read this? I am feeling pretty distraught

It wouldn't surprise me if it was all true. Considering Nelsen's lack of experience, the fact that until Leiweke got here a lot of the long time TFC people were still around probably doing all the shit they do. Lack of communication has seemingly been a constant that has spanned different regimes at TFC. I don't know how you create a true team culture without keeping an open dialogue with your players & addressing whatever concerns they might have.

Lets face the music here. If they were doing all the right things off of the pitch, they wouldn't be constantly bottoming out every year with no end in sight. Think about all the things we know about the ridiculousness that has gone on with this club & realize there is probably a bunch of crap that goes on everyday that we don't know....yet.

A Stick
10-04-2013, 05:36 PM
I don't think so, it was international with top clubs like Manu, RealM as clients.

Isn't Barry MacLean like Mo's best friend back when he was still around TFC?

On Sunday, I was watching the highlights on TV and the panned the camera to where Liewickie was sitting with you guessed it, Barry MacLean. This pencil neck geek is the biggest snake oil salesman player agent in North America. Yes he is Mo's best friend and for the first 4 years, the majority of signings (domestic and international) came through Barry's agency. For the last 3 years, MacLean has not been present at BMO until last weekend. If he has the ear of Liewickie we are truly fucked!

Redcoe15
10-04-2013, 05:43 PM
This is what the fuck TFC's future looks like: A glorified beancounter (Lieweke) hiring, as his GM, another beancounter (Bezbatchenko), and, the guy left to look after the soccer talent and evaluation of the team, someone not even a year removed from playing who's coaching the team (Nelson).

Which means no MLS playoffs and playing second fiddle in our own stadium to a deadbeat CFL team because the fucking glorified beancounter thinks Toronto is just like LA.

We are getting shit. And they expect us to make shitburgers to eat.

Haddy
10-04-2013, 06:04 PM
This is not true. Leiweke is too far up the chain to bother with being the GM of this team. What TL has opted for is a more Euro style arrangement with Nelson being the manager whose vision will shape the team. The GM will help with the cap and trades within the league, etc. It's like what LAG has with Arena and Klein or RSL with Kreis and Lagerway. There was a good article on CSN I think that pointed out that at TFC we're used to the GM being the face of the team like Mo and Payne were. But now with the Bez hiring the GM is taking a back seat like in the rest of league.

The only roster related job Leiweke has is (along with Nelson and Bez) talking to DPs and convincing them to sign here. This is Nelson's team now. And in light of that Rollins article I'm more than a little worried. I's crucial to put the right staff around Nelson. That starts with hiring an assistant with experience managing professional players (NCAA D3 isn't going to cut it).

Leiweke is going on the Europe recruitment trip apparently. At least that what it sounded like. Sure it's for the DP's but I really wish they were capable enough without him. I guess you have to send big bait to land a big fish.

notthesun
10-04-2013, 06:32 PM
I feel like Leiweke will be the one identifying and acquiring DPs, but as far as filling out the roster I don't see him being very involved. Nelsen is going to be building this team and Bezbatchenko is going to make sure he does so sensibly (cap-wise).

I don't trust Nelsen's ability to identify talent and I don't trust Bez's ability to form an effective scouting network.

ag futbol
10-04-2013, 06:44 PM
On Sunday, I was watching the highlights on TV and the panned the camera to where Liewickie was sitting with you guessed it, Barry MacLean. This pencil neck geek is the biggest snake oil salesman player agent in North America. Yes he is Mo's best friend and for the first 4 years, the majority of signings (domestic and international) came through Barry's agency. For the last 3 years, MacLean has not been present at BMO until last weekend. If he has the ear of Liewickie we are truly fucked!
Oh dear god, please keep Barry away from TFC.

Mark in Ottawa
10-04-2013, 07:03 PM
Sorry if this is a stupid question but wasn't BMO field referred to as the "National soccer stadium" at one time?
Would the CSA have any say in the stadium being retrofitted for Gridiron football?

Suds
10-04-2013, 07:34 PM
Sorry if this is a stupid question but wasn't BMO field referred to as the "National soccer stadium" at one time?
Would the CSA have any say in the stadium being retrofitted for Gridiron football?

Not sure what the answer is to that. However, if MLSE proposed a roof, expanded seating, no impact to the soccer pitch, and all for zero cost to the CSA - do you think the CSA would say no even if they had the ability?

jazzy
10-04-2013, 09:09 PM
The talk is coming from fans and media! I highly doubt Tim Lewieke and TFC FO are thinking about Argos right now.

Tim and co are more concern with signings than anything else.

As for Nelsen, I feel like we need an assistant coach (tactic expert) who has experience managing to guide Nelsen. GM role is limited now, so I am not going to be too concern about hiring a newbie.


must agree with it all

Couchy81
10-04-2013, 09:24 PM
We are getting shit. And they expect us to make shitburgers to eat.

It's true, a shit leopard can't change its spots.

jloome
10-04-2013, 10:11 PM
This is the question everyone is asking right now.

Maybe they feel they can rely on MLS central scouting like a lot of teams do? Tend to think that's incredibly flawed.

In a sense Mariner had it right; there's enough statistical information available online to scout anyone over about the age of 15 who is affiliated with a professional club ina small country. I spent about three hours scouting South America, Europe and Africa the other night on Soccerways and found about 40 players under age 24 who are already their team's leader or are major contributors, all in first divisions of smaller countries.

So finding good players isn't hard. Online databases,as people have noted, provide a lot of performance data and even video, recent performance reports etc.

But what TFC has yet to do is appoint a chief scout with actual player technique and personality evaluation experience; whether that person then uses consultants (expensive) of similar experience or assigns a staff, without someone evaluating technique long before we start negotiating or training camp, Lieweke throwing around wads of cash won't help us.

Ivy
10-05-2013, 12:03 AM
^^^ You can do the same thing in Fifa Manager - but that doesn't work in such a tight cap league. The young productive players on ANY team will be expensive... The point is to find the cheap mediocre players and give them the little boost to become good players.

As for Rollins' article, believe his anonymous high confidential professional source if you want, but I heard it straight from the horses mouth (the veteran player that was benched for asking about his future) that what Rollins is saying is not true. Ecks won't be here next year, and it has NOTHING to do with him asking questions.

jloome
10-05-2013, 12:55 AM
^^^ You can do the same thing in Fifa Manager - but that doesn't work in such a tight cap league. The young productive players on ANY team will be expensive... The point is to find the cheap mediocre players and give them the little boost to become good players.



As for Rollins' article, believe his anonymous high confidential professional source if you want, but I heard it straight from the horses mouth (the veteran player that was benched for asking about his future) that what Rollins is saying is not true. Ecks won't be here next year, and it has NOTHING to do with him asking questions.

I'M TALKING ABOUT REAL LIFE STATS, NOT A GAME. So comparing it to FIFA is kind of ignoring my point, which is that stats are only half the picture next to real scouting, and kind of dumb.

You are aware, I assume, that tracking a player's ongoing performance is somewhat important to identifying whether they can play? Soccerway is not an "opinion" site, it just tracks real life stats. Like, who scored in the Paraguayan First Division the other night, and that kind of thing. It also tracks ongoing stats, which you can't get off Wikipedia. In fact most of the players on that list I dug up the other night aren't even on the English version of Wikipedia.

Why would you see any valid correlation between a video game's assignment of a point score to a player and judging whether he has value by his reallife performance stats?

Secondly, where did I ever say I agreed with his "anonymous high confidential professional source" or how did you construe that from the post you quoted?

I've been probably his most vocal critic because I actually did report for newspapers for 23 years and know how to do it properly. There are so many inconsistent and ridiculous points in that post that it's hard to know where to start. Reeks of a mix of sour grapes, grossly foolish assumption and a willingness to ignore some very basic facts in order to make a narrative work.

And even the basic argument, that the "young productive players on any team will be expensive," is deeply flawed. Sure, the top third of young talent from South America is sometimes priced out early. But MLS is already signing 20-year-old south Americans (and 17 year olds in the case of Castillo and Fagundez, when they join ed the league) because the bottom two thirds of playhers down there make FUCK ALL for money. A guy in the Uruguayan first division at age 18-20 is making $400 to $600 a week, absolute tops. But just because he's not good enough to go to Spain right away or Argentina doesn't mean he isn't good enough to start in MLS.

Petor
10-05-2013, 06:12 AM
Obviously putting a decent team on the field is the primary goal currently, but I hope TFC / MLSE lobbies municipal and provincial government for some decent transportation options. My choice not to renew was made while sitting in a traffic jam on each trip from KW to Toronto this year. Missing the first half of the season opener after leaving 2 1/2 hours to get to the game was a bit disheartening. I don't think Toronto / Ontario is grasping the lost revenue from the number of people saying "screw it, not going to bother trying to get there" Hopefully there will be enough people in the downtown core to support the team.

Ever think of driving down to the Aldershot or Burlington GO train stations, parking the car(still free I think)then taking the train in?

In my opinion the GO train is the best way to get to BMO Field.

A friend of mine takes the GO train in from Long Branch and it only takes her about 15 minutes to get to BMO.
I on the other hand live a couple blocks from Jane Subway station and I'm lucky to get to Joe's in under an hour.

With all the construction and the Dufferin bridge being closed even a small rain drenched crowd causes a traffic nightmare in the area.

Sweeper
10-05-2013, 07:51 AM
Ever think of driving down to the Aldershot or Burlington GO train stations, parking the car(still free I think)then taking the train in?

In my opinion the GO train is the best way to get to BMO Field.

A friend of mine takes the GO train in from Long Branch and it only takes her about 15 minutes to get to BMO.
I on the other hand live a couple blocks from Jane Subway station and I'm lucky to get to Joe's in under an hour.

With all the construction and the Dufferin bridge being closed even a small rain drenched crowd causes a traffic nightmare in the area.

I have taking the train in from Long Branch and we ended up either having to leave the game early or waiting 45 mins for a train on the return. Perhaps the timing is better now. To get to Aldershot still requires a good stretch of the 401 and Hwy 6. Often the traffic jams are between Hwy 8 and Hwy 6. I would consider the go train from KW if it was express, but currently it's only a commuter run and it still takes over 2 hours. I don't believe it runs on Saturday either. People come here from Europe and cringe at the difficulty of getting to a major city center or airport from the suburbs.

ag futbol
10-05-2013, 09:50 AM
Who's to say the vet asking about there future is Eckersley? And given the structure of this team what's considered a veteran could be pretty liberal.

Could easily we Lambe, Koevermans, etc...

Ivy
10-05-2013, 10:25 AM
I'M TALKING ABOUT REAL LIFE STATS, NOT A GAME. So comparing it to FIFA is kind of ignoring my point, which is that stats are only half the picture next to real scouting, and kind of dumb.

You are aware, I assume, that tracking a player's ongoing performance is somewhat important to identifying whether they can play? Soccerway is not an "opinion" site, it just tracks real life stats. Like, who scored in the Paraguayan First Division the other night, and that kind of thing. It also tracks ongoing stats, which you can't get off Wikipedia. In fact most of the players on that list I dug up the other night aren't even on the English version of Wikipedia.

Why would you see any valid correlation between a video game's assignment of a point score to a player and judging whether he has value by his reallife performance stats?

Secondly, where did I ever say I agreed with his "anonymous high confidential professional source" or how did you construe that from the post you quoted?

I've been probably his most vocal critic because I actually did report for newspapers for 23 years and know how to do it properly. There are so many inconsistent and ridiculous points in that post that it's hard to know where to start. Reeks of a mix of sour grapes, grossly foolish assumption and a willingness to ignore some very basic facts in order to make a narrative work.

And even the basic argument, that the "young productive players on any team will be expensive," is deeply flawed. Sure, the top third of young talent from South America is sometimes priced out early. But MLS is already signing 20-year-old south Americans (and 17 year olds in the case of Castillo and Fagundez, when they join ed the league) because the bottom two thirds of playhers down there make FUCK ALL for money. A guy in the Uruguayan first division at age 18-20 is making $400 to $600 a week, absolute tops. But just because he's not good enough to go to Spain right away or Argentina doesn't mean he isn't good enough to start in MLS.
You misunderstood what I wrote, I apologize. I wasn't validating fifa as a scouting tool, I was simply saying that there is more to scouting than looking online, I wasn't disagreeing with you.

And my reference to the article was not in response to anything you said, I was just saying that was Rollins wrote is BS.

Sorry if it came out wrong

pdubs
10-05-2013, 12:30 PM
i think everyone has the right to be highly skeptical of this organization. They have never been able to put a quality side on the field. However i think getting the salary cap in good shape is an important step. If this means getting rid of eckersley i am all for that, no full back should be on 200-300k guaranteed money just doesn't make sense. From what they do from here idk, but we do need DP's that are healthy and contributing and that are difference makers.

trane
10-05-2013, 03:34 PM
In one way, it really is a new start because of the cap clearning and contract standings they have with existing players.

I will be very sad to see Frei go, that one hurts.
Danny K just couldn't hold his fitness. Ecks - terrible contract and it seems clear they are going to move him or buy it out.

For those reasons I am very curious to see how they do in the next window and season.

I don't like this bull shit talk with the Argos.
I am unsure if Ryan is the right coach for this team.
I am unsure that the new GM is right.
I am a little scared of all the DP talk - we have been there and done that for 7 years now and throwing out names to somehow satisfy fans has been overdone in this market.

Its time for them to lay proper groundwork on scouts, academy and football operations. Stop worrying about marketing and flash, start working on the team and the product on the field. This upcoming window has way too much hype on it that I fear they will have no hope of ever living up to.

That being said, we're still here.

This is what most supporters have hoped for, since day one, and somehow MLSE has just not gotten it together. I am not anti-DP but signing 3 DPs is not the end of all problems. Impact have done it, but they already had a structure into which these DPs could fit into.

Yohan
10-05-2013, 03:39 PM
This is what most supporters have hoped for, since day one, and somehow MLSE has just not gotten it together. I am not anti-DP but signing 3 DPs is not the end of all problems. Impact have done it, but they already had a structure into which these DPs could fit into.

IMFC has 2. Nesta is not a DP. and they have depth problems, hence why they are sucking right now.

I'm just afraid that Leiweke is going for NYRB style team building. get 3 DPs, and try to find enough min wage guys to support these guys and hope that the DPs can produce and not get injured. Looks like NYRB finally got the combination right, but for a long time, they just weren't producing consistently.

I do think as long as you don't have a lot of guys on regular 250-350k contracts, a team can support 2 DPs at full cap hit no problem. It's just when you get too many max cap hit players on top of your DPs that the roster gets too unbalanced and crap.

__wowza
10-05-2013, 04:23 PM
IMFC has 2. Nesta is not a DP. and they have depth problems, hence why they are sucking right now.

I'm just afraid that Leiweke is going for NYRB style team building. get 3 DPs, and try to find enough min wage guys to support these guys and hope that the DPs can produce and not get injured. Looks like NYRB finally got the combination right, but for a long time, they just weren't producing consistently.

NYRB have long since been a punchline for a lot of the other supporters. spend, spend, spend. DP, DP, DP. where had that gotten them in the past 5 years? having said that, henry is still a fucking beast.

Beach_Red
10-05-2013, 04:24 PM
This is what most supporters have hoped for, since day one, and somehow MLSE has just not gotten it together. I am not anti-DP but signing 3 DPs is not the end of all problems. Impact have done it, but they already had a structure into which these DPs could fit into.

Maybe most supporters hoped for this, but it didn't get said much. There was almost no talk of infrastructure and scouting in the beginning and anytime someone brought it up there was a lot of talk about how we were, "lucky to have a team," and a lot of blaming whoever was coach at that moment until a new coach was brought in. Even when they hired the consultant and talked about their grand plan there was no talk about how it would actuallynbe implemented.

So, it does feel like we're back at the beginning and we're hoping this time a proper infrastructure gets put in place.

Masked Man
10-05-2013, 04:50 PM
Maybe most supporters hoped for this, but it didn't get said much. There was almost no talk of infrastructure and scouting in the beginning and anytime someone brought it up there was a lot of talk about how we were, "lucky to have a team," and a lot of blaming whoever was coach at that moment until a new coach was brought in. Even when they hired the consultant and talked about their grand plan there was no talk about how it would actuallynbe implemented.

So, it does feel like we're back at the beginning and we're hoping this time a proper infrastructure gets put in place.

They shouldn't have needed anyone to tell them anything. It should have been done DAY ONE. The fact that it wasn't highlights the real problem, not only with this team but with MLSE as an entity. They disrespected the league when they arrogantly thought they could hire whomever they wanted to run the club. TFC has an owner that doesn't seem very invested in making this venture successful. None of the shit that has gone on would be tolerated by any owner who would have wanted to see soccer grow in this city.

trane
10-07-2013, 09:59 AM
Maybe most supporters hoped for this, but it didn't get said much. There was almost no talk of infrastructure and scouting in the beginning and anytime someone brought it up there was a lot of talk about how we were, "lucky to have a team," and a lot of blaming whoever was coach at that moment until a new coach was brought in. Even when they hired the consultant and talked about their grand plan there was no talk about how it would actuallynbe implemented.

So, it does feel like we're back at the beginning and we're hoping this time a proper infrastructure gets put in place.

It starts with a vision and system of the first team. Then you build a scouting department capable of bringing the type of players you need, and build an academy to develop players to play in the first teams system. It takes a while. But 7 years should have been enough, but with no vision on the first team, hard to have results in the other departments. Our Academy may be the best thing that has been developed, but developing players when you are not sure of what your first team is going to be about is far from optimal.

I truly hope that 2014 will be a new beginning.

Beach_Red
10-07-2013, 12:05 PM
It starts with a vision and system of the first team. Then you build a scouting department capable of bringing the type of players you need, and build an academy to develop players to play in the first teams system. It takes a while. But 7 years should have been enough, but with no vision on the first team, hard to have results in the other departments. Our Academy may be the best thing that has been developed, but developing players when you are not sure of what your first team is going to be about is far from optimal.

I truly hope that 2014 will be a new beginning.

Sure, we all agree that's how it should work. All I was saying was that this ownership didn't start with a vision - and we accepted that in the beginning. We said it here on this board over and over, we were just happy to have a team. But we saw from their very first hires they were trying to get away with the bare minimum.

I would actually cut them a little slack for not having too much long-range vision in a league changing as fast as MLS was changing the first five years of TFC's existence. No one knew how the DP rule was going to play out, how the salary cap was going to work, how allocation works (do we know that one yet?), how domestic player rules would work and so on. But I know those are really just lame excuses. All the other teams managed to get on with it.

glaze
10-07-2013, 12:28 PM
Obviously putting a decent team on the field is the primary goal currently, but I hope TFC / MLSE lobbies municipal and provincial government for some decent transportation options. My choice not to renew was made while sitting in a traffic jam on each trip from KW to Toronto this year. Missing the first half of the season opener after leaving 2 1/2 hours to get to the game was a bit disheartening. I don't think Toronto / Ontario is grasping the lost revenue from the number of people saying "screw it, not going to bother trying to get there" Hopefully there will be enough people in the downtown core to support the team.

And this also ties into the Argos BS. Toronto media seem to think that everything has to go downtown. The Argos still have a following, as seen by the crowd against Hamilton. The issue is the Dome sucks, their schedule sucks, and getting to their games is hard for their fanbase. Yet the Star reports on a stadium at York or Downsview or Etobicoke as if it were another country. BMO is our home, but even for those taking the TTC it is not an easy place to get to. The infrastructure around the Ex just can't handle that traffic of everyone coming in and leaving at once. And thats without factoring in construction, road closures, etc.

As for the Argos, MLSE will buy them because they #1 need to maintain their monopoly on Toronto sports and sporting venues #2 They can leverage it isnto some funding for stadium improvements #3 The Argos make money, and will make more money with MLSE controlling the revenue streams, (stadium concessions, no rent, etc).

I think a solution can be found for the grass. In the last thread someone linked to the UK company that showed the hybrid surface used for tottenham, arsenal, wembley, lambeau field etc. Just don't go back to fieldturf.
But playing 2 seasons in the Dome during construction could kill TFC. it could provide a convenient excuse for more "rebuilding years" and the final product has to maintain the intimacy and sightlines.
And how big is the "New BMO" going to be? If they put in 28-30000 seats our crowds and atmosphere will suffer. I just hope MSLE is thinking of solutions for TFC, rather than excuses to give the fans (Seattle, NE play in NFL stadiums, BC Place is a shared facility, etc).

Joe Kool
10-07-2013, 01:08 PM
I still believe in Mo's 5 year plan...even in year 7 g:D

ag futbol
10-07-2013, 01:16 PM
Sure, we all agree that's how it should work. All I was saying was that this ownership didn't start with a vision - and we accepted that in the beginning. We said it here on this board over and over, we were just happy to have a team. But we saw from their very first hires they were trying to get away with the bare minimum.

I would actually cut them a little slack for not having too much long-range vision in a league changing as fast as MLS was changing the first five years of TFC's existence. No one knew how the DP rule was going to play out, how the salary cap was going to work, how allocation works (do we know that one yet?), how domestic player rules would work and so on. But I know those are really just lame excuses. All the other teams managed to get on with it.
Still believe that a big part of the problem was a lack of oversight from people with soccer specific knowledge. People with knowledge of the game at the top would have allowed us to avoid a lot of amateurish problems. Mo probably would have been fired earlier. Managers would have been brought in with some sense of continuity rather than blowing it up every 12 months.

The sad part is, you look around today and not much has changed. We still don't have adequate oversight or a BOD that can look out for the best interests of the team in the long run.

Phil
10-07-2013, 01:51 PM
Still believe that a big part of the problem was a lack of oversight from people with soccer specific knowledge. People with knowledge of the game at the top would have allowed us to avoid a lot of amateurish problems. Mo probably would have been fired earlier. Managers would have been brought in with some sense of continuity rather than blowing it up every 12 months.

The sad part is, you look around today and not much has changed. We still don't have adequate oversight or a BOD that can look out for the best interests of the team in the long run.

This 1000%. Its exactly what has gone on.

Super
10-07-2013, 02:37 PM
This 1000%. Its exactly what has gone on.

Don Garber gave us Mo - among other things. Not entirely MLSE's fault. Maybe Garber will make it up to us and bend the rules a bit and give us a few extra points to start 2014.. Or maybe buy us a player like he did Seattle. Who the hell knows how this joke of a league is run anymore. I'm holding on by a hair - for change.

I'm actually more concerned with our inability to hire an experienced coach for the job. Where in England do you think Nelsen would have gotten a head coaching job? League 2? If even? The same goes for ALL of our coaches - including Preki (our only experienced coach) who had red flags all over him. Enough with the newbies already. We should be in competition with top clubs over coaches. Not take the ones that NO ONE ELSE would hire. Sure, it'll be hard, but we have cash, and that helps.

I'm not saying newbies can't succeed at the top level, but surely we should expect a little bit more on a persons resume than simply "I played the game and want to coach". THAT to me is the number one problem at TFC. Nelsen wouldn't have been able to get a top football job ANYWHERE in Europe - or probably the world for that matter - and yet we feel he's awesome. I think a lot of our problems come from football fans not understanding that there is a difference between a player and a head coach, and an assistant coach and a head coach. It's not the same job. Taking on a newbie at this level is a MASSIVE risk that I simply don't feel we can afford anymore. People will use Kreis as an example of a newbie who made it big in this league, but he had a couple other things on his resume: he was promoted from within the organization as an ex-player AND he played more than 300 games in the MLS. Already had a reputation in Salt Lake, and knew the league extremely well. Hard to compare Kreis (as a newbie coach) to Nelsen (as a newbie coach).

Surely we can think a LITTLE bit bigger?

Phil
10-07-2013, 03:03 PM
As much as the fingerprints of the MLS are all over some key coaches and GM's in our past, it seems none of them had a clue how to set up and organize a football team from scratch. They simply float around different clubs and do the best they can. No one really got the time to work their way into understanding the culture or it was already an every man for himself, backstabbing environment that ensured dysfunction.

They need a hardened MLS coach that gets the roles needed and understands the structure we must have in order to build a competitive team.

It's great that the cap issues are largely behind us, I just hope the key holders that ownership are entrusting us to have the right people calling the shots. If not, it's anther 5 to 7 years of the same old crap.

Joe Kool
10-07-2013, 03:40 PM
If not, it's anther 5 to 7 years of the same old crap. We will have the same supporter section they had at the beginning of the movie Major League if that is the case. Who is going to be the 4 fans doing the wave? Not me.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/yBBKcecvEcM/maxresdefault.jpg

Haddy
10-07-2013, 04:10 PM
^ bucket hat and Hawaiian shirt.....yep, I totally volunteer to be that guy.

Anyone know what's going on with the role of club President?

ag futbol
10-07-2013, 04:35 PM
As much as the fingerprints of the MLS are all over some key coaches and GM's in our past, it seems none of them had a clue how to set up and organize a football team from scratch. They simply float around different clubs and do the best they can. No one really got the time to work their way into understanding the culture or it was already an every man for himself, backstabbing environment that ensured dysfunction.

They need a hardened MLS coach that gets the roles needed and understands the structure we must have in order to build a competitive team.

It's great that the cap issues are largely behind us, I just hope the key holders that ownership are entrusting us to have the right people calling the shots. If not, it's anther 5 to 7 years of the same old crap.
Exactly.

My point would be that you need soccer people who aren't the coach and GM who look after the best interests of your team and your team only. MLS head office doesn't cut it, they have their own agenda and have to worry about fairness as well as a whole bunch of other things. Having the GM or coach doesn't cut it either. If you want to know why look no further than the Hassli trade. That never would have happened in an organization with proper governance.

Hiring the best people has always been an issue here, but broader organizational strategy and continuity is by far the biggest failure. If we were a clothing manufacturer, in year 1 we would try and be The Gap, in year two we'd try to be Armani, and in year 3 we'd be Mark's Work Wearhouse. It's incredibly asinine to hire managers that have radically different philosophies every time and try to change the direction of the organization. The problem isn't always the strategy, it's often who's trying to implement it.

Richard
10-07-2013, 04:43 PM
You can blame most the issues with TFC on Mr. Anselmi. To be fair to him however he was given the job with no experience in soccer, although it doesn't excuse him of the incompetence of the FO.

As for the president question I think TL is the guy, I don't think we will see anyone but an experienced coach with higher influence than him.

ensco
10-07-2013, 06:13 PM
Forget "Garber gave us Mo" or "Garber gave us Klinsman" or whatever.

The reason we are where we are is because Richard Peddie was allowed by Larry Tanenbaum and Teachers to put Tom Anselmi in charge of TFC because "it was a nice little job for him to learn stuff by".

http://read.thestar.com/?origref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wakingthered.com%2F2013% 2F9%2F9%2F4705472%2Ftfc-a-nice-little-job-for-anselmi-to-learn-stuff-by-richard-peddie-tom-anselmi-mlse?origref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wakingthered.com%2F2 013%2F9%2F9%2F4705472%2Ftfc-a-nice-little-job-for-anselmi-to-learn-stuff-by-richard-peddie-tom-anselmi-mlse#!/article/522a7662cb0071bda705f153-tom-anselmi-s-exit-leaves-leiweke-on-mlse-hot-seat-feschuk

Someone like Leiweke is the correct response to this problem. I'm just doubtful that Leiweke himself is that guy. This is the type of individual I wish the new MLSE owners had hired.

http://www.soundersfc.com/news/articles/2010/09-september/new-president-announced.aspx?print=true

Ever heard of this guy? Ever heard his views about the Sounders back line? Think that's a coincidence?

TFCknw
10-07-2013, 09:43 PM
did you ever hear that TL is hired to put an NFL team in Toronto. lol.

Beach_Red
10-07-2013, 10:02 PM
What does it take to be the owner of an NFL team?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1690767-what-does-it-take-to-be-the-owner-of-an-nfl-franchise

Redcoe15
10-07-2013, 11:20 PM
I wish people would get off this idea that Toronto will land an NFL team in the future. Too many hurdles to overcome, the big one being the lack of Canadian TV revenues needed to help cover for this team's presence. If Lieweke thinks he can pull this off then he's got a serious substance abuse problem.

__wowza
10-08-2013, 01:21 AM
I wish people would get off this idea that Toronto will land an NFL team in the future. Too many hurdles to overcome, the big one being the lack of Canadian TV revenues needed to help cover for this team's presence. If Lieweke thinks he can pull this off then he's got a serious substance abuse problem.

this is a serious question: are you trying to tell me that toronotonians wouldn't get behind an NFL franchise, or that the owners of MLSE (rogers/bell) couldn't bring in a boatload of TV revenue?

Redcoe15
10-08-2013, 04:38 AM
this is a serious question: are you trying to tell me that toronotonians wouldn't get behind an NFL franchise, or that the owners of MLSE (rogers/bell) couldn't bring in a boatload of TV revenue?
NFL teams receive well over $100 million per year from the rights fees of U.S. networks. For a Canadian market like Toronto to get an NFL team, a Canadian network like CTV would have to fork out that much just for Toronto's share plus more than douple that amount to cover for any loss a U.S. network might face just for broadcasting a team in Toronto, so we're looking at $250 million annualy for one team from one network. That's well more than what CBC and TSN combined pay for national NHL rights in Canada and it towers over what TSN pays for CFL rights, both of whom would outdraw a Toronto NFL team. Is that well worth it?

And there's no guarantee any U.S. network would go along with that. They hate the idea of broadcasting national games involving Canadian teams. Remember how sick CBS felt having to broadcast the 92 and 93 World Series because the Blue Jays were involved? They have a lot of clout over the league.

OgtheDim
10-08-2013, 06:08 AM
this is a serious question: are you trying to tell me that toronotonians wouldn't get behind an NFL franchise,....


Yup.

This is a hockey town. And a World Cup town. Anything else doesn't have the numbers.

Fort York Redcoat
10-08-2013, 07:56 AM
The NFL dream has never been closer and it's not just Toronto they look at as a fan base. Look at the BlueJays TV numbers across the country. That didn't happen overnight but that can happen in less than a decade. First the fans get to the one dream game in Toronto to see who they've supported up to that point and then slowly keep up with the Canadian team.

All this needs to happen at downs view. This media bullshit pressure to downtown and BMO talk is just pandering. The gridiron stadium should be at downsview. Space and the majority of fans come from outside the city and drive to the game. I don't drive but I've heard from you all how not awesome BMO is to get to in a car.

All this from a guy who fucking hates the concept of an NFL team in Toronto and have done for 20 years. I'd rather talk in realities, though, and deal with them. Minimize any detriment to my funtime.:scarf:

Beach_Red
10-08-2013, 08:08 AM
The NFL dream has never been closer and it's not just Toronto they look at as a fan base. Look at the BlueJays TV numbers across the country. That didn't happen overnight but that can happen in less than a decade. First the fans get to the one dream game in Toronto to see who they've supported up to that point and then slowly keep up with the Canadian team.

All this needs to happen at downs view. This media bullshit pressure to downtown and BMO talk is just pandering. The gridiron stadium should be at downsview. Space and the majority of fans come from outside the city and drive to the game. I don't drive but I've heard from you all how not awesome BMO is to get to in a car.

All this from a guy who fucking hates the concept of an NFL team in Toronto and have done for 20 years. I'd rather talk in realities, though, and deal with them. Minimize any detriment to my funtime.:scarf:

What makes you say the NFL is any closer in Toronto now than ever before? The NFL is showing no signs of changing its rules on corporate ownership, is it? Is there a single owner talking about putting up the billion dollars for a team?

inheavensince07
10-08-2013, 08:11 AM
What makes you say the NFL is any closer in Toronto now than ever before? The NFL is showing no signs of changing its rules on corporate ownership, is it? Is there a single owner talking about putting up the billion dollars for a team?


I agree with Beach red .. The NFL is not looking for some cell phone ass clowns corp ownership to deal with

Phil
10-08-2013, 08:15 AM
What makes you say the NFL is any closer in Toronto now than ever before? The NFL is showing no signs of changing its rules on corporate ownership, is it? Is there a single owner talking about putting up the billion dollars for a team?

They have ways around the rules that will make them compliant. There is a pretty big single entity shareholder in MLSE that might be looking but pure speculation on my part. I would tend to think that the NFL experiment with the Bills makes the NFL look distant. They can't get a full crowd to that, god knows how they think a bigger stadium would fill up.

Beach_Red
10-08-2013, 08:30 AM
They have ways around the rules that will make them compliant. There is a pretty big single entity shareholder in MLSE that might be looking but pure speculation on my part. I would tend to think that the NFL experiment with the Bills makes the NFL look distant. They can't get a full crowd to that, god knows how they think a bigger stadium would fill up.

When was the last time the NFL allowed an ownership group to get around those rules? How many have tried to get a team in LA but not been able to? But you're right, the Bills experiment doesn't look good. And with Ted Rogers no longer the face of the ownership it looks even more distant.

This is from the Bleacher Report article:

It's not all about the money, though. You have to know the secret handshake.
OK, there's not really a secret handshake. Probably.

There are, however, a number of hoops that a prospective owner has to jump through in order for the sale of a team to be approved by the league, as well as requirements any NFL team's owner must meet.
The NFL makes potential owners meet quite a few more of these requirements than any of the other major sports. For example, any group looking to buy an NFL team must be led by a single individual who owns at least 30 percent of the team, although a family member can account for one-third of that stake.

The reason for that is to prevent large ownership groups, such as the one that recently bought the Los Angeles Dodgers for an eye-popping $2 billion-plus, from buying a team. The NFL wants each franchise led by a single "face," and the NFL gets what it wants.

Still Kicking
10-08-2013, 09:02 AM
Agree that renting Buffalo is as close as Toronto is going to get to NFL. To say that US TV has clout with NFL is the understatement of the year. The continued vacancy of Los Angeles as a NFL market has to be NFL priority number 1. Tiny markets such as Buffalo and Jacksonville might be targets for purchase/relocation (to LA or ??). Canadian teams on US tv drive down US ratings. TL can't change that...MLSE wants revenue from NHL playoffs and see Raptors as winners a potential cash bonus. If TL were NFL determined he would have stayed in California...

ag futbol
10-08-2013, 10:49 AM
The problem with Bills in Toronto is that MLSE reverted to Leafs mode in their promotion and pricing. Their sell to fans was basically "it's the NFL!" and they did little else. There was no tailgating and what was available in terms of game day festivities was crap. Tickets were horrendously overpriced for what was offered. When I looked at pricing with friends, we all laughed because we realized that for what we were going to pay to watch the game here we could hire a limo to drive us to buffo and buy better tickets for far less.

By the time they ran that racket once, the word was already out that it was crap and it wasn't a real NFL-like experience. People sat on their money and MLSE looked foolish. It really underscores how poorly run the organization was pre-bogers takeover. They didn't even understand their own market enough to realize how people would react.

I tend to believe that with a real stadium and an actual local team, you would get traction. Average ticket prices would still be horrendous but people would suck it up. I still am at a loss for who would actually pay the franchise fee for this team though. Other than the Thompson family or the Westons, I don't see any suitable candidates. Neither of those names have expressed interest as far as I tell.

Pint
10-08-2013, 11:14 AM
The problem with Bills in Toronto is that MLSE reverted to Leafs mode in their promotion and pricing. Their sell to fans was basically "it's the NFL!" and they did little else. There was no tailgating and what was available in terms of game day festivities was crap. Tickets were horrendously overpriced for what was offered. When I looked at pricing with friends, we all laughed because we realized that for what we were going to pay to watch the game here we could hire a limo to drive us to buffo and buy better tickets for far less.

By the time they ran that racket once, the word was already out that it was crap and it wasn't a real NFL-like experience. People sat on their money and MLSE looked foolish. It really underscores how poorly run the organization was pre-bogers takeover. They didn't even understand their own market enough to realize how people would react.

I tend to believe that with a real stadium and an actual local team, you would get traction. Average ticket prices would still be horrendous but people would suck it up. I still am at a loss for who would actually pay the franchise fee for this team though. Other than the Thompson family or the Westons, I don't see any suitable candidates. Neither of those names have expressed interest as far as I tell.

This is exactly the issue with Bills in Toronto... a couple years ago me and 6-8 friends from school decide to go to an NFL game. It was cheaper to get on a party bus that included pick up, drop off, pre game food/beer/tailgating experience, and our ticket. Why would anyone ever go in toronto when you can do it cheaper and better in buffalo?

For a team to be successful you need a large plot of land, decent stadium, and a change in the ontario laws to allow tailgating. Half the fun of going to an NFL game is all the pregame festivities and what they do in toronto for the bills simply isnt it.

WestStandGeoff
10-08-2013, 12:21 PM
The problem with Bills in Toronto is that MLSE reverted to Leafs mode in their promotion and pricing. Their sell to fans was basically "it's the NFL!" and they did little else. There was no tailgating and what was available in terms of game day festivities was crap. Tickets were horrendously overpriced for what was offered. When I looked at pricing with friends, we all laughed because we realized that for what we were going to pay to watch the game here we could hire a limo to drive us to buffo and buy better tickets for far less.

By the time they ran that racket once, the word was already out that it was crap and it wasn't a real NFL-like experience. People sat on their money and MLSE looked foolish. It really underscores how poorly run the organization was pre-bogers takeover. They didn't even understand their own market enough to realize how people would react.

I tend to believe that with a real stadium and an actual local team, you would get traction. Average ticket prices would still be horrendous but people would suck it up. I still am at a loss for who would actually pay the franchise fee for this team though. Other than the Thompson family or the Westons, I don't see any suitable candidates. Neither of those names have expressed interest as far as I tell.

I can appreciate that from the way the marketing was handled you would assume this was an MLSE exercise, but Bills in Toronto was in fact brought to us courtesy of Rogers Communications. I'd say you pretty much have it nailed otherwise.

trane
10-08-2013, 02:11 PM
I thought we were talking football not football.

tfcleeds
10-09-2013, 11:12 AM
Feels weird posting on this board again, haha. As for the NFL in Toronto, agreed that it's still a pipedream. And in any event, it wouldn't change my allegiance anyway, so I don't care if it ever happens. As for the main topic of discussion - I've never felt as much apathy towards this club as I have over the last month or so. I will see what happens in 2014, but that could be the straw that breaks the camel's back for me if there is no improvement. I have to say, the names I've heard linked with our DPs don't inspire me with confidence.