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denime
09-06-2013, 05:43 AM
Mornin'




TFC TV





(http://www.torontofc.ca/video)Leiweke On Payne's Departure


(http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2013/09/leiweke-paynes-departure)Leiweke: New TFC GM must accept Nelsen


(http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/leiweke-new-tfc-gm-must-be-capologist-accept-nelsen/)MLSE’s Leiweke confirms firing of TFC president, gives manager a vote of confidence (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/mlses-leiweke-confirms-firing-of-tfc-president-gives-manager-a-vote-of-confidence/article14140152/)


Tim Leiweke takes fearless approach fixing TFC (http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/05/mlses-top-exec-leiweke-takes-fearless-approach-fixing-tfc)


MLSE president and CEO Tim Leiweke unveils Designated Player plans for Toronto... (http://www.newsnow.co.uk/A/666193126?-19896:6206)


Canada extends head coach Herdman to 2020 (http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/canada-extends-head-coach-herdman-to-2020/)


MLSE seeing whether BMO Field can handle CFL (http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/mlse-to-see-if-bmo-field-can-house-cfl-game/)







TFC Related Blogs !!


(http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?29582-TFC-MLS-blogs-thread)

SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshine-girl)



Canada re-signs Herdman (http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/05/john-herdman-re-signed-to-coach-canadas-womens-soccer-team)



(http://www.torontofc.ca/video)

scooter
09-06-2013, 06:51 AM
mornin d

Stouffville_RPB
09-06-2013, 07:22 AM
Morning D!

A few thoughts...
- Handcuffing whatever GM is brought in with Nelsen is a massive mistake and will set the next restart even further behind
- Italian DP's? I hope it's Maldini coming out of retirement.
- Bring on the Argos, at least we'll see some W's for the home team at BMO

ManUtd4ever
09-06-2013, 08:38 AM
Leiweke certainly knows how to make headlines...

-He fires Payne after a 9 month tenure
-He announces that he intends to saddle the next GM with the incumbent coach
-He entertains the notion of the Argos moving to BMO Field
-He makes bold proclamations regarding marquee DP players that the club intends to target in the immediate future, despite the PR disaster during the recent transfer window

In my opinion, Leiweke has a long way to go in order to live up to his exalted reputation.

jabbronies
09-06-2013, 09:06 AM
Morning D!

A few thoughts...
- Handcuffing whatever GM is brought in with Nelsen is a massive mistake and will set the next restart even further behind
- Italian DP's? I hope it's Maldini coming out of retirement.
- Bring on the Argos, at least we'll see some W's for the home team at BMO


This has come up a few times already and I don't agree with it.
It would be insane to bring in a GM who would have more control over the team than the manager in this situation.

I see this being a "Bruce Arena" type appointment for Nelsen. He will essentially be GM/Manager - the soccer guy if you will. They will bring in someone to be the business guy - the President, who will oversee the non-football side of things. So Nelsen can focus on football and this new guy can deal with the money.

Carts
09-06-2013, 09:11 AM
This has come up a few times already and I don't agree with it.
It would be insane to bring in a GM who would have more control over the team than the manager in this situation.

I see this being a "Bruce Arena" type appointment for Nelsen. He will essentially be GM/Manager - the soccer guy if you will. They will bring in someone to be the business guy - the President, who will oversee the non-football side of things. So Nelsen can focus on football and this new guy can deal with the money.

I personally have always liked that model above. You need your Manager/Coach selecting his targets, who he wants, and what he wants - you just need someone (aka the 'General Manager') to go out there and make it happen...

razor787
09-06-2013, 09:15 AM
Good to see TFC is still its old self. 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

jabbronies
09-06-2013, 09:30 AM
I personally have always liked that model above. You need your Manager/Coach selecting his targets, who he wants, and what he wants - you just need someone (aka the 'General Manager') to go out there and make it happen...

Well - we've had 7..8? years of the old system. Maybe it's time to try this one out. I mean it works for the most successful teams in the world.

Canary10
09-06-2013, 09:34 AM
This has come up a few times already and I don't agree with it.
It would be insane to bring in a GM who would have more control over the team than the manager in this situation.

I see this being a "Bruce Arena" type appointment for Nelsen. He will essentially be GM/Manager - the soccer guy if you will. They will bring in someone to be the business guy - the President, who will oversee the non-football side of things. So Nelsen can focus on football and this new guy can deal with the money.

Yeah,there are tons of examples of Directors of Football who didn't choose their on-field manager. There seems to be some assumption that no two people can work together unless they choose each other. That's crap.

jabbronies
09-06-2013, 09:42 AM
Yeah,there are tons of examples of Directors of Football who didn't choose their on-field manager. There seems to be some assumption that no two people can work together unless they choose each other. That's crap.

LIsten to this interview starting around the 11:30 mark:
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2013/09/05/conference-call-tim-leiweke-september-5-2013

Leiweke essentially lays out the type of person they are looking for.
And it all points to a business guy.

Oldtimer
09-06-2013, 09:51 AM
LIsten to this interview starting around the 11:30 mark:
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2013/09/05/conference-call-tim-leiweke-september-5-2013

Leiweke essentially lays out the type of person they are looking for.
And it all points to a business guy.

Lagerway fits perfectly. A lawyer with a footy background, doesn't choose the players for Kreis, just gets the deals done.

Phil
09-06-2013, 09:56 AM
Its a capologist they are after. A guy that will be told who to get and work out how to fit him under the salary cap.

Still Tim painted himself into a corner on it all.

jabbronies
09-06-2013, 10:15 AM
Its a capologist they are after. A guy that will be told who to get and work out how to fit him under the salary cap.

Still Tim painted himself into a corner on it all.

Basically what Mariner was suppose to be.

Phil
09-06-2013, 10:17 AM
Basically what Mariner was suppose to be.

More like Earl IMO. Big question I had pondered after talking with some TFC people....did Mariner have any experience dealing with player contracts and aquisition? Evidence suggests he was in the deep end on that at least as far a a cap restricted MLS side is concerned.

johnmolinaro
09-06-2013, 10:45 AM
What if Leiweke is able to get Garth Lagerway as GM, but Lagerway said he'd only take the GM job if he could bring over Jason Kreis as coach? Is Leiweke really going to let Lagerway walk away over Ryan Nelsen? Same would apply to any potential GM who wanted to hire the coach. Is Leiweke really prepared to lose out on a quality GM candidate over Nelsen?

If so, I find that staggering. With all due respect to Ryan, we're not talking about Pep Guardiola here - we're talking about a rookie coach with four wins in 26 games.

Just my two cents.

John Molinaro

Canary10
09-06-2013, 10:50 AM
What if Leiweke is able to get Garth Lagerway as GM, but Lagerway said he'd only take the GM job if he could bring over Jason Kreis as coach? Is Leiweke really going to let Lagerway walk away over Ryan Nelsen? Same would apply to any potential GM who wanted to hire the coach. Is Leiweke really prepared to lose out on a quality GM candidate over Nelsen?

If so, I find that staggering. With all due respect to Ryan, we're not talking about Pep Guardiola here - we're talking about a rookie coach with four wins in 26 games.

Just my two cents.

John Molinaro

Is soccer some completely unique social institution in which two people who don't know each other cannot come in and work together collaboratively? Happens in every other field of work. All over the world Directors of Football work with managers not of their choosing (Baldini and Villas-Boas being a pretty good example of one working well).

To flip your example around, if Lagerway was offered more money to come work for a big pocket organization in a big world class city and a club with tons of unmet upside, would he decline because he has to work with some coach with top level soccer experience that most say is pretty good guy?

TOBOR !
09-06-2013, 10:59 AM
*earworm*

if you're Lagerwey - Lagerwey
Lagerwey - Lagerwey
I will follow...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2BqLlVHlWA

johnmolinaro
09-06-2013, 11:04 AM
Is soccer some completely unique social institution in which two people who don't know each other cannot come in and work together collaboratively? Happens in every other field of work. All over the world Directors of Football work with managers not of their choosing (Baldini and Villas-Boas being a pretty good example of one working well).

To flip your example around, if Lagerway was offered more money to come work for a big pocket organization in a big world class city and a club with tons of unmet upside, would he decline because he has to work with some coach with top level soccer experience that most say is pretty good guy?

I didn't mean to suggest they couldn't work together. They could. But what if retaining Nelsen was a deal breaker for any potential GM target? All I'm saying is this: is TL really going to take a pass on a quality GM candidate over Nelsen? If so, I find that staggering.

If by a "pretty good guy" you're referring to Nelsen's ability as a coach, I would respectfully disagree with that assessment. I don't think he should have been hired in the first place and is not the coach to turn this team around on the field.

Again, just my opinion, though. I hope Nelsen proves me 100 per cent wrong.

John

ManUtd4ever
09-06-2013, 11:04 AM
What if Leiweke is able to get Garth Lagerway as GM, but Lagerway said he'd only take the GM job if he could bring over Jason Kreis as coach? Is Leiweke really going to let Lagerway walk away over Ryan Nelsen? Same would apply to any potential GM who wanted to hire the coach. Is Leiweke really prepared to lose out on a quality GM candidate over Nelsen?

If so, I find that staggering. With all due respect to Ryan, we're not talking about Pep Guardiola here - we're talking about a rookie coach with four wins in 26 games.

Just my two cents.

John Molinaro

Agreed.

eustacchio
09-06-2013, 11:10 AM
Good to see TFC is still its old self. 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

Someone at work once said in response to "one step forward, two steps back" with "maybe you should turn around".

tiberius
09-06-2013, 11:17 AM
What if Leiweke is able to get Garth Lagerway as GM, but Lagerway said he'd only take the GM job if he could bring over Jason Kreis as coach? Is Leiweke really going to let Lagerway walk away over Ryan Nelsen? Same would apply to any potential GM who wanted to hire the coach. Is Leiweke really prepared to lose out on a quality GM candidate over Nelsen?

If so, I find that staggering. With all due respect to Ryan, we're not talking about Pep Guardiola here - we're talking about a rookie coach with four wins in 26 games.

Just my two cents.

John Molinaro

Agreed - Nelsen will be Tim's coach, until he's not. It is in the team's interest for Tim to publicly support Nelson, until a replacement is locked in. Nelsen's days are numbered - Tim will just slither away from his "coach in 2014" endorsement at the appropriate time - this is one of the clear differences between a marketing guy and Kevin Payne. If they can't entice a good experienced coach to TFC, they will just use Ryan as a whipping boy when their reset of the organization falls flat. (This is straight from the MoJo handbook, see page 1)

Initial B
09-06-2013, 11:17 AM
What if Leiweke is able to get Garth Lagerway as GM, but Lagerway said he'd only take the GM job if he could bring over Jason Kreis as coach? Is Leiweke really going to let Lagerway walk away over Ryan Nelsen? Same would apply to any potential GM who wanted to hire the coach. Is Leiweke really prepared to lose out on a quality GM candidate over Nelsen?

There's no way Garber and the MLS execs would allow both Lagerway and Kreis to walk away from Real Salt Lake at the same time. That would gut RSL's programme at a time when MLS desperately wants quality sides, not to mention their supporter groups would be ready to go to war over it.

CretanBull
09-06-2013, 11:21 AM
I think that Nelson is an awful coach, but maybe the thinking is that they want to maintain some small degree of stability during this transition phase? Surely he'll be fired in the off-season or when a new GM is hired?

johnmolinaro
09-06-2013, 11:23 AM
There's no way Garber and the MLS execs would allow both Lagerway and Kreis to walk away from Real Salt Lake at the same time. That would gut RSL's programme at a time when MLS desperately wants quality sides, not to mention their supporter groups would be ready to go to war over it.

Fair enough, and I just threw that out as an example. But my point remains this: Is Leiweke really prepared to lose out on a quality GM candidate over Nelsen?

John

Blizzard
09-06-2013, 11:33 AM
What if Leiweke is able to get Garth Lagerway as GM, but Lagerway said he'd only take the GM job if he could bring over Jason Kreis as coach? Is Leiweke really going to let Lagerway walk away over Ryan Nelsen? Same would apply to any potential GM who wanted to hire the coach. Is Leiweke really prepared to lose out on a quality GM candidate over Nelsen?

If so, I find that staggering. With all due respect to Ryan, we're not talking about Pep Guardiola here - we're talking about a rookie coach with four wins in 26 games.

Just my two cents.

John Molinaro

As you discussed on The Soccer Show last night ... and I'd say no but but at this moment he can't really throw Nelsen under the bus if he wants him to finish the season. In reality he may be a lame duck but you can't say that in public.

Canary10
09-06-2013, 11:56 AM
I didn't mean to suggest they couldn't work together. They could. But what if retaining Nelsen was a deal breaker for any potential GM target? All I'm saying is this: is TL really going to take a pass on a quality GM candidate over Nelsen? If so, I find that staggering.

If by a "pretty good guy" you're referring to Nelsen's ability as a coach, I would respectfully disagree with that assessment. I don't think he should have been hired in the first place and is not the coach to turn this team around on the field.

Again, just my opinion, though. I hope Nelsen proves me 100 per cent wrong.

John

My point really is that putting a GM (or Director of Football) and coach who didn't choose each other together happens all over the place, and I think is over rated as an issue. In the hiring, I would think they would look for personality traits that would allow all three to work together well. I mean, Chelsea essentially has a GM, with an owner that, let's face it, has the final say in everything. Yet they keep going.

By "good guy" I simple mean that people seem to like and respect him. You're way closer to the day to day than any of us. If you really don't think he's a good coach, that worries me. I'm not a fan of his tactics personally, but will concede they do have a place. But if it's more than that, that's not good. I guess the question then would be who makes the decision on the coach, and at one point does Nelsen's guarantee run out?

Anyone interviewed ought to be asked if they are prepared to stick with Nelsen, and are they prepared to work with a CEO that will have his fingerprints all over the team, and will get involved. If they aren't prepared to handle that then, yeah, I think they pass on that person. Even if it is Lagerway or anyone else that has a good reputation in the league.

Platts
09-06-2013, 12:12 PM
Tom Anselmi has QUIT!!! YEAH!
I never knew if this guy was just a completely incompetent corporate whore,
or just a corporate whore who didn't know what he was doing.
Next to Richard (dick) Peddie, he was THE face of the hopeless era of MLSE.

ag futbol
09-06-2013, 12:13 PM
Yeah,there are tons of examples of Directors of Football who didn't choose their on-field manager. There seems to be some assumption that no two people can work together unless they choose each other. That's crap.
Ok, perhaps, but none the less, if we are taking the view that Payne shouldn't be here long term I don't see the need to wait to find out whether Ryan Nelsen become a good manager or not.

Also, it's pretty common that when you bring in a new hire they want their own people. That's part of the package and usually a negotiation tool. Yes, people often work with others but it's unlikely that having less flexibility under those who work under you is considered a positive.

Really, what is more important: protecting an inexperienced and unproven coach or getting the best hire possible?

Richard
09-06-2013, 12:15 PM
Tanenbaum has no power anymore. If Rogers and Bell continue to work together he doesn't have the deciding vote on the board.

ag futbol
09-06-2013, 12:19 PM
^ Think you mean tanenbaum

Canary10
09-06-2013, 12:19 PM
Ok, perhaps, but none the less, if we are taking the view that Payne shouldn't be here long term I don't see the need to wait to find out whether Ryan Nelsen become a good manager or not.

You don't, but Leiweke does and he's the one making the decisions. Question is whether that will stop good candidates from taking the job.

Richard
09-06-2013, 12:20 PM
^ Think you mean tanenbaum


Yes you're right.

CretanBull
09-06-2013, 12:31 PM
My point really is that putting a GM (or Director of Football) and coach who didn't choose each other together happens all over the place, and I think is over rated as an issue. In the hiring, I would think they would look for personality traits that would allow all three to work together well. I mean, Chelsea essentially has a GM, with an owner that, let's face it, has the final say in everything. Yet they keep going.

By "good guy" I simple mean that people seem to like and respect him. You're way closer to the day to day than any of us. If you really don't think he's a good coach, that worries me. I'm not a fan of his tactics personally, but will concede they do have a place. But if it's more than that, that's not good. I guess the question then would be who makes the decision on the coach, and at one point does Nelsen's guarantee run out?

Anyone interviewed ought to be asked if they are prepared to stick with Nelsen, and are they prepared to work with a CEO that will have his fingerprints all over the team, and will get involved. If they aren't prepared to handle that then, yeah, I think they pass on that person. Even if it is Lagerway or anyone else that has a good reputation in the league. I don't think that anyone would see a new GM's desire to build his own management team as a personality flaw. A GM's fate is tied to his coach and the team's success, so they have a very good reason to have their guy running the team. Not being able to bring in their own coach is a signal to potential GMs that they don't have autonomy - and that's going to keep the best candidates away. All of that aside, why keep Nelson? What has he done to be given a place of importance above a new GM? He has 4 wins in 26 games, we aren't improving, our players don't appear to be developing, he doesn't even have a track record of previous success that we can point to and say "with the right players, this guy can deliver". It didn't make sense to hire him in the first place, keeping him after a purge and making his job safety a restriction on a new GM makes even less sense.

Canary10
09-06-2013, 12:35 PM
I don't think that anyone would see a new GM's desire to build his own management team as a personality flaw. A GM's fate is tied to his coach and the team's success, so they have a very good reason to have their guy running the team. Not being able to bring in their own coach is a signal to potential GMs that they don't have autonomy - and that's going to keep the best candidates away. All of that aside, why keep Nelson? What has he done to be given a place of importance above a new GM? He has 4 wins in 26 games, we aren't improving, our players don't appear to be developing, he doesn't even have a track record of previous success that we can point to and say "with the right players, this guy can deliver". It didn't make sense to hire him in the first place, keeping him after a purge and making his job safety a restriction on a new GM makes even less sense.

The GM will have little autonomy because Leiweke is involved, full stop. Not sure why this particular thing with Nelsen is what everyone jumps on.

Richard
09-06-2013, 12:36 PM
Am I the only one who sees this as a non issue for the new GM. It is essentially a get out of jail card with no downsides other than Nelson is the wrong guy. If Nelson sucks then the GM says "To bad, not my pick". He then gets at least another 2 coaches in most North American sports. So really he gets at least 3 years to build his team, which for TFC would be a lifetime. I really think Nelson deserves at least another half season though.

OgtheDim
09-06-2013, 12:39 PM
Tanenbaum has no power anymore. If Rogers and Bell continue to work together he doesn't have the deciding vote on the board.

They have been voting as a block all along. He lost his power on the day Burke was fired; Bogers brought it up and he was out voted.

CretanBull
09-06-2013, 12:52 PM
The GM will have little autonomy because Leiweke is involved, full stop. Not sure why this particular thing with Nelsen is what everyone jumps on.

What reasons are there to protect the coach with one of the worst winning percentages in MLS history? Do we want a clean slate or not? Why fire Payne if his replacement will be handcuffed to Payne's mistakes?

Oldtimer
09-06-2013, 01:00 PM
They have been voting as a block all along. He lost his power on the day Burke was fired; Bogers brought it up and he was out voted.

Yes, Tanenbaum thought he would be the deciding vote between those two "vigorous competitors" Bell and Rogers. Little did he know that Bell and Rogers are quite friendly competitors, and Rogers was quite happy to let Bell's Cope decide everything. Tanenbaum actually has zero power. At least he gets to go to those NHL Governor meetings, though...

Canary10
09-06-2013, 01:14 PM
What reasons are there to protect the coach with one of the worst winning percentages in MLS history? Do we want a clean slate or not? Why fire Payne if his replacement will be handcuffed to Payne's mistakes?

Don't think there is broad consensus that Nelsen is a bad coach. He's done more with a team that I would argue is worse than what we started last year with. We have been in every match we've played, except that Montreal drubbing. Far less goals are scored on us. We are clearly a more difficult team to play. I'm not a fan of his tactics personally, but lots of teams play that way; they have a place in modern soccer. Players seem to like him and he provides continuity. Why would you change it less than a year in?

Dreadlocks
09-06-2013, 01:19 PM
IMO, Nelson is still on because he's controllable. He almost becomes a mole in meetings where TL is not present.

OgtheDim
09-06-2013, 01:38 PM
Don't think there is broad consensus that Nelsen is a bad coach. He's done more with a team that I would argue is worse than what we started last year with. We have been in every match we've played, except that Montreal drubbing. Far less goals are scored on us. We are clearly a more difficult team to play. I'm not a fan of his tactics personally, but lots of teams play that way; they have a place in modern soccer. Players seem to like him and he provides continuity. Why would you change it less than a year in?

Some people look at winning and losing right now and care nothing about building to win later. The only North American sport equivalent of the thinking necessary to understand TFC's situation would be a US College football or basketball team building a 4 year plan.

Nightly highlights and 3 times a week columnists and daily radio shows don't breed patience.

Jack
09-06-2013, 01:39 PM
IMO, Nelson is still on because he's controllable. He almost becomes a mole in meetings where TL is not present.
Why a mole? I mean, the idea is to have everyone on the same page and working together. The vision comes from the boss, so if Nelsen has the boss' vision and they find a GM who shares that vision, then you don't need moles because everyone is on the same page. The idea that they need to check up on each other and that the factions in the organization are opposed to one another is precisely why this organization was so fucked for so long. I'm glad they cleaned house and, if the current coach is on board with the boss, who has a proven record of building a championship organization in LA (or at least putting the pieces in place for whomever to build it), then I'm ok with that.

Dreadlocks
09-06-2013, 02:04 PM
Why a mole? I mean, the idea is to have everyone on the same page and working together. The vision comes from the boss, so if Nelsen has the boss' vision and they find a GM who shares that vision, then you don't need moles because everyone is on the same page. The idea that they need to check up on each other and that the factions in the organization are opposed to one another is precisely why this organization was so fucked for so long. I'm glad they cleaned house and, if the current coach is on board with the boss, who has a proven record of building a championship organization in LA (or at least putting the pieces in place for whomever to build it), then I'm ok with that.

I personally not against keeping Nelson on - whatever TL's reasoning is. I agree that the internal strife was one of the major problems, but the fact is that back-stabbing is a constant in the corporate world. Every internal relationship usually starts off good but over time they can deteriorate and usually do. TL may just be putting up safe guards to ensure that what he wants gets done. Maybe he feels that if he brings in a good GM who's vision is inline with his own at the time he is hired, having Nelson in place will make the new guy think twice if he starts to get ahead of himself by by feeling he knows better and wants to change the 'plan'.

Anyway, just a theory to try to explain the unexplained.

I'm ecstatic that the house has been finally been cleaned of all the cancers and dead weight and I hope that this is the start of TFC part deux.

bones
09-06-2013, 02:42 PM
I see a lot of focus on the ONE reason why TL kept RN. Perhaps RN has many smaller qualities that TL likes. Perhaps it's the sum of the smaller parts and not the single big thing that people can't find or are pointing in the opposite direction?

Stating that RN lead this team to only 4 wins is pointing out stats. Well, stats also show last year we only had 5 and given our rotating door(worse than last year), massive injuries(on par or worse) and now this management turmoil we should look at other numbers. GF are way down and based on our strikers being effected with that rotating door/injuries list I understand, but our GA is way down too and that shows better discipline which is a coach-able thing isn't it?

RN also does have a lot of contacts in both EPL and lesser leagues where perhaps overlooked better players could be had for cheaper prices. There is value in that but it is not the single ONE reason I agree.

RN is a rookie coach and would probably bend to align with a club philosophy more easily than a seasoned crusty prick.

There is also the "if we suck next year" scapegoat thing in place by keeping RN for next year, which is always handy too.

MLSE is slow to adapt to necessary change (other than increasing ticket prices). We're all a buzz because TL is moving fast. He seems to want a bean counter that understands the game and perhaps that is what we need. Perhaps TL sees RN a bit like Kries in that he's a former player that understands the game well, communicates with his players well and can become something special. We will have to give him some time. You can't rush the second coming of Kries.