Matchday 25: Toronto at D.C., Sat 24 Aug, 7:00pm

[Dv23]

Considering that the game is 6 hours away and there is no thread up, I figured I'd pick up the slack.

Definitely a winnable game tonight. I'm thinking 2-1, TFC, with Silva netting the goal for United (duh). Earnshaw and Urruti for TFC.

[Dave67]

DC will win a game again this year, but it won't be this one. 2-1 TFC. Sports are weird and I have an easier time seeing DC steal a win against a top club like RSL or NY than I do seeing them beat a bottom feeder like Toronto. Toronto will be up for this game.

[Suds]

3-0

i have no idea who for.

[mowe]

So there's a game today.

#TFC (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC&src=hash) XI: Bendik; Eckersley, Caldwell, Henry, Morgan; Lambe, Hall, Osorio, Convey; Brockie, Wiedeman

#TFC (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC&src=hash) Substitutes: Frei; Agbossoumonde, Elmer, Russell, Rey, Braun, Earnshaw

Where's Urruti?

[JayMolly]

Considering that the game is 6 hours away and there is no thread up, I figured I'd pick up the slack.

Definitely a winnable game tonight. I'm thinking 2-1, TFC, with Silva netting the goal for United (duh). Earnshaw and Urruti for TFC.

Hope the TFC players are thinking win tonight.
Appears not to be much interest from the Toronto supporter and fan base for this one?????

[Stress]

Yeah what gives with Earnshaw on the bench and no Urruti period? Also, Rey back to the bench? With this line up I can't help but think back and laugh about Paynes comment re: the starting line up in preseason being completely different by the end of the season.

[HuTor]

1-0
For one of the teams entering the playing field today... :)

[dantdot]

Urruti is on the bench, not Braun apparently.

[flatpicker]

So there's a game today.

#TFC (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC&src=hash) XI: Bendik; Eckersley, Caldwell, Henry, Morgan; Lambe, Hall, Osorio, Convey; Brockie, Wiedeman

#TFC (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC&src=hash) Substitutes: Frei; Agbossoumonde, Elmer, Russell, Rey, Braun, Earnshaw

Where's Urruti?


Great... lemme guess... Urruti got injured during practice... out 4 months.

[Richard]

Well there isn't a reason he shouldn't be on the bench, he did play in in the last game after all. So yeah, how fucked would that be.

[OgtheDim]

Weidman for 45 and the Urruti for the second half? (TFC twitter says Urruti in the subs, not Braun)

[flatpicker]

^ Well that's a relief.

[OgtheDim]

Sportsnet are so out of the loop.

Big point about TFC is Earnshaw, who isn't starting.

[PopePouri]

Goal DeRo!

[Scotiarae]

Knew that was coming.....

[Rudy]

good for DeRo. TFC......sign.....

[Scotiarae]

DeRo could score on us in a wheelchair

[Rudy]

DeRo could score on us in a wheelchair
So can Silva.

[Rudy]

Horrible passing....

[Scotiarae]

TFC's road uniforms look like they're there for tennis

[jloome]

So can Silva. This is atrocious so far. Sitting back like this all game and it'll just be 2-0, 3-0... We're tactically shit. It's not just the players. This one-touch down the sidelines shit is getting old. And we seem to have no defensive shape to speak of.

[pdubs]

why is lambe on the field id take anyone on the bench for him

[Scotiarae]

Caldwell (the $90k man) is a trooper back on the line

[OgtheDim]

Is there not a mod around who can merge the two game day threads?

[Richard]

Is there not a mod around who can merge the two game day threads?

Yeah, seems like the mods are on vacation or busy.

[moralis]

Message to Ryan Nelsen: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING. YOU COACH TFC IN PRACTICE AND PUT THE PLAYERS YOU WANT ON THE FIELD.

WHO IS RESPONSIBLE. DIFFERENT COACH SAME CRAP.

I'm writing this now because I don't believe TFC will come back.

[jloome]

Jesus, for eight seconds we had a player. And it was Wiedeman.

[jloome]

Jason: "At the same time, you'd like to play him. He's your DP." No, no he's not.

[Richard]

^ Technically no but I get his point, he is a key player DP or not.

[pdubs]

its like we are playing hot potato

[Richard]

Oh shit, did Lamb just beat a player.

[jloome]

^ Technically no but I get his point, he is a key player DP or not. His point is that he was incorrect. You get the larger point, and so do I. But it wasn't his point, and he works for the company.

[jloome]

Good run from Wiedeman.

[Richard]

^ Yeah your right. Fans are more informed about soccer in this country than broadcasters most of the time.

[jloome]

Our defending is just foul. Even on that run with Lambe, Wiedeman was screaming at everyone to get up the pitch and press.

[SoccMan2]

So tell me why are they not playing Elmer, Rey,Urruti? Why did we get these guys if they are just going to be subs. Like Dan Dunleavy said this is now like a preseason play these guys let's see what they can do, am I wrong stupid an idiot for saying this?

[OgtheDim]

I think I prefer Weideman to Brockie.

If Osorio is injured.....owch.

[QBall]

DU United is definitely NOT playing like a last place team tonight.

[Richard]

^^Probably because we are.

[jloome]

Two awfully coached teams. You can tell from the complete absence of movement off the ball except in offensive triangles. Just shit. How do I say something positive about this? The youth team moves the ball better.

[jloome]

My god, we tried a through ball. Saints be praised.

[QBall]

Another nice save by Bendik on the shot from DeRo, but it still shows DeRo is a beast.

[jloome]

WIedeman was night and day our best player in the first half. Good movement off the ball, getting into dangerous spaces; He just needs to finish one. The rest of our team could walk off a cliff and we wouldn't be worse off. Not sure what the hell was up with Osorio in that half.

[OgtheDim]

...Not sure what the hell was up with Osorio in that half.

He seems to have eaten a Cronut Burger. Guy looks like he has flu.

[Dv23]

Lambe is like a giveaway machine.

[CBTFC]

3rd chance now for Weetabix. Should've had at least a goal by now...I mean, he is the greatest finisher of the modern era after all.

[OgtheDim]

3rd chance now for Weetabix. Should've had at least a goal by now...I mean, he is the greatest finisher of the modern era after all.

Given he is the only one attacking their goal, and that he has finished recently, I'll take somebody at least trying.

[QBall]

They took out Wiedeman? Brockie has been crap and Osorio is looking green so why Wiedeman?

[jloome]

They took out Wiedeman? Brockie has been crap and Osorio is looking green so why Wiedeman? Bizarre choice. First time this season one of our strikers has known what to do off the ball.

[QBall]

Convey baby!
1-1

[jloome]

Jesus Christ spare us, Dunleavy thinks DC look good tonight.

[CBTFC]

Convey! Well done.

[jloome]

Good finish, smart run.

[CBTFC]

Convey! Well done. And solid patience by Lambe to take that extra step to deliver the cross.

[Richard]

My god!

[SoccMan2]

Eckersley sorry but let this guy go, no soccer brain upstairs, just runs runs runs with no purpose.

[Richard]

Lol this ref.

[OgtheDim]

No midfield pressure without Laba.

Hall and Russel seem to be playing in a pocket.

[ag futbol]

Why again did we leave better options on the bench in favor of weak links? We're being donated by a last place team 1-1 or not

[__wowza]

should've been a red.

[QBall]

Earnshaw wasting the free kick right outside the box.

[__wowza]

hahaha dero! niiiiiice pass.

[Morlesio14]

bring maxi on

[OgtheDim]

Earnshaw isn't trusting his first touch.


Brockie staying on is just stupid. The man is leaving and Urruti is staying.

Get your next year time.

[Morlesio14]

why rey?

[Scotiarae]

like driving the used cars around the block....just advertising to potential buyers. The new cars are wrapped for the showroom

[Richard]

We have so many one dimensional players. Sigh.

[Morlesio14]

nelsen can just go suck brockies dick

[TFC Kevin]

Bendik was fantastic once again, Henry looked really good tonight, DeRo's goal was insane, and I hope Osorio is okay.

[flatpicker]

So, this thread wins, I guess.

[jazzy]

I think I prefer Weideman to Brockie.

If Osorio is injured.....owch.

I used to be not for Weideman but I agree with you also prefer him over Earnshaw , he's done.

[SoccMan2]

What a joke we keep a guy on the bench who they have been trying to get all season for a guy who is leaving. a forward who wait for it got just one lousy goal since he got here. Sure he works hard so hard, who the fuck cares how hard you work, your a striker your suppose to score goals and you did not, go home and don't come back and bring your country man Nelson with you while your at it. Sorry guys but Nelson is turning out to be another lousy coach in the long line of lousy TFC coaches. Montreal 5 Houston 0 tonight not bad for a second year team, and were stuck with this mess 7 years and counting!

[TFC07]

What a joke we keep a guy on the bench who they have been trying to get all season for a guy who is leaving. a forward who wait for it got just one lousy goal since he got here. Sure he works hard so hard, who the fuck cares how hard you work, your a striker your suppose to score goals and you did not, go home and don't come back and bring your country man Nelson with you while your at it. Sorry guys but Nelson is turning out to be another lousy coach in the long line of lousy TFC coaches. Montreal 5 Houston 0 tonight not bad for a second year team, and were stuck with this mess 7 years and counting!

Agreed, but some people don't want to fire Nelsen and rather have him for few years. lol

Lousy coach who hasn't shown any improvement needs to be let go or demoted. Time to hire a proper manager! Not this hiring inexperience manager because it's cheaper.

[miker]

Made no sense to keep Brockie in - he wasn't particularly effective and we didn't owe him anything. Good action was happening and it would have been a better time to bring in Urruti than when we were down two against Columbus. Fresh forward legs would have been great.

[Scotiarae]

Don't worry - focus on the important things - like we are getting a roof....and games at half like building subway sandwiches....and maybe cheerleaders???

[Pint]

@KurtLarSUN: Nelsen said Urruti didn't see time because of the Osorio injury, which forced him to make a midfield change. #TFC

[BuSaPuNk]

Think Henry, Lambe (yes Lambe), Caldwell had a great game. Even Morgan looked good.

I like that they kept Brockie on all game. Show some respect to the guy he deserves it.

[Fushida]

What has Brockie done to deserve anything......? He's been an ineffective loanee at best..

[Benficachop20]

Agreed, but some people don't want to fire Nelsen and rather have him for few years. lol

This i dont get. Some people would rather suck for years just so they can say we kept a manager longer than a year, even when its obvious that the man has no idea what he's doing. Who would have thought hiring another inexperienced manager would turn out to be a poor move. I mean we've only been doing it for 7 years and our results have just been fantastic under these inexperienced manager, so we get another one lol.

but its ok guys were obviously making progress. After 25 games we have 21 points. Same point last season we had 20 points. 1 point upgrade, obvious improvement.

If the dumbasses that work for the CSA can actually hire an experienced manager in Benito Floro, than TFC should be able to hire someone with experience as well.


Montreal 5 Houston 0 tonight not bad for a second year team, and were stuck with this mess 7 years and counting!

but were on a 25 year rebuilding plan, we can't turn away from it now.

[moralis]

There's an experienced MLS coach available and he's also Canadian in Frank Yallop.

[ag futbol]

No thanks to Yallop. If we're stuck on being Canadian I'll take sasho cirovski (sp).

A bad week for TFC, that's for sure. Anyway, hopefully we have something more to show for it going forward.

[cochrdoc]

Out all nite.Didn`t see the game,but look at the stats.Have we improved at all this year.We lose to Chivas and tie DC.Our new left back has not played yet and new outside mid has not looked overwhelming.Who knows what our new striker can do.Why is it other teams can turn it around a lot quicker then TFC or show improvement over the season. We still carry several players who cannot compete in this league.We do not have one draft pick who plays any big minutes. There is no way this team deserves to play in the MLS.I really do not think they will be much better next year.

[Masked Man]

Brockie set up one of the better chances TFC had by drawing in the two defenders & getting it to Earnshaw. He can't finish, which makes him miscast in a striker role but he gives an honest effort.

Firing Nelsen would just be dumb. We need to allow these guys the time to build the team! TFC has had problems because MLSE lacked the spine to stick to anything. Give them a full off-season that nobody has gotten, give them a training camp with a full roster. I will say this though, next year we better not be going into a place like KC short handed & we better making some fucking progress...this 4 wins a year shit has got to go.

[ag futbol]

Brockie set up one of the better chances TFC had by drawing in the two defenders & getting it to Earnshaw. He can't finish, which makes him miscast in a striker role but he gives an honest effort.

Firing Nelsen would just be dumb. We need to allow these guys the time to build the team! TFC has had problems because MLSE lacked the spine to stick to anything. Give them a full off-season that nobody has gotten, give them a training camp with a full roster. I will say this though, next year we better not be going into a place like KC short handed & we better making some fucking progress...this 4 wins a year shit has got to go.
You could write a novel on all the things that were wrong with this team in the last 8 years. It would be just as easy to reason that we've never actually hired a proper manager as to say we lacked consistency.

[Jeff s]

Firing Nelsen would just be dumb. We need to allow these guys the time to build the team! TFC has had problems because MLSE lacked the spine to stick to anything. Give them a full off-season that nobody has gotten, give them a training camp with a full roster. I will say this though, next year we better not be going into a place like KC short handed & we better making some fucking progress...this 4 wins a year shit has got to go.

But this is seriously why I can't stand it when TFC gets a manager with no experience during a "rebuilding process". Cause for all we know, this could very well be the best to his ability, and than this whole rebuild will once again be a waste. Its hard to judge. If we were to get an experienced manager he isn't doing so well, than it gives us a better picture of what to do with him ( could just mean his style doesn't work, etc ) But for Nelson, its basically lets wait a few years to see if he does turn up good after all.



@KurtLarSUN: Nelsen said Urruti didn't see time because of the Osorio injury, which forced him to make a midfield change. #TFC

How the hell does that effect Urruti?



On the game itself. Was really pleased with Henry and Morgan today.

[nonc]

What has Brockie done to deserve anything......? He's been an ineffective loanee at best..

Better than Earnshaw. Nobody on TFC can get an assist or consistently cross the ball to save their lives except for Convey and Brockie. He makes a lot more sense to play with Urruti next year. He can also make a pass and interact with the midfield which TFC desperately need. Nobody else can do anything with Bendik's monstrous hoofballs near the opposition 18 either... I like Bendik but his distribution needs improvement.

[v00d00daddy]

Just watched the game after a night of drinking and I'm glad I didn't stay in to watch it.

I pvrd the game and there was very little to be impressed by.

I'm now watching the other game I pvrd. Montreal looks good.

It pains me to see this. Do vaio is literally better than anything we've ever had by a longshot.

I see this game ending 3-4 to 1 Montreal.

[OgtheDim]

A midfield of Hall and Russel is not going to attack their zone. So when we went wide and crossed in well for once, we relied upon our strikers.

And I am not a fan of our wide mids tucking in. Lambe got into wide areas but defensively, he and Convey were exposing the Fbs by staying inside.

[Dv23]

Who cares about the game itself - My game thread WON!:hump:

[Masked Man]

But this is seriously why I can't stand it when TFC gets a manager with no experience during a "rebuilding process". Cause for all we know, this could very well be the best to his ability, and than this whole rebuild will once again be a waste. Its hard to judge. If we were to get an experienced manager he isn't doing so well, than it gives us a better picture of what to do with him ( could just mean his style doesn't work, etc ) But for Nelson, its basically lets wait a few years to see if he does turn up good after all.

It makes perfect sense to hire an inexperienced manager during a rebuild because that guy can learn on the job & grow with the team. A higher quality of manager is going to have his own options & is naturally not going to choose a team that doesn't have talent to work with. The most unreasonable thing is hiring an inexperienced manager & then firing the guy because he doesn't get instant results.

I've seen nothing from Nelsen that suggests that he is some kind of burden that prevents the team from accomplishing more. Until we see what he does with a more talented roster, any judgement on the guy is rash to say the least. At the end of the day, Kevin Payne & the FO are going to have more of a hand in deciding the fate of this rebuild than Nelsen is. If the front office doesn't improve the quality of this roster, then Nelsen is going to have a tough time regardless.

[v00d00daddy]

It makes perfect sense to hire an inexperienced manager during a rebuild because that guy can learn on the job & grow with the team. A higher quality of manager is going to have his own options & is naturally not going to choose a team that doesn't have talent to work with. The most unreasonable thing is hiring an inexperienced manager & then firing the guy because he doesn't get instant results.

I've seen nothing from Nelsen that suggests that he is some kind of burden that prevents the team from accomplishing more. Until we see what he does with a more talented roster, any judgement on the guy is rash to say the least. At the end of the day, Kevin Payne & the FO are going to have more of a hand in deciding the fate of this rebuild than Nelsen is. If the front office doesn't improve the quality of this roster, then Nelsen is going to have a tough time regardless.

There are inexperienced managers and then there are players who are not, and have never been managers. Ryan Nelsen is not just inexperienced. We were waiting for him to stop being an active player before he became our manager. There are LITERALLY more experienced coaches and tacticians on this board than Nelsen was when he joined TFC.

That being said, I agree that he deserves time. But to suggest that he hasn't failed on certain occasions with his tactics and player selection is plain wrong. He's said and done plenty of things to be critical about.

[Jeff s]

It makes perfect sense to hire an inexperienced manager during a rebuild because that guy can learn on the job & grow with the team. A higher quality of manager is going to have his own options & is naturally not going to choose a team that doesn't have talent to work with. The most unreasonable thing is hiring an inexperienced manager & then firing the guy because he doesn't get instant results.

I've seen nothing from Nelsen that suggests that he is some kind of burden that prevents the team from accomplishing more. Until we see what he does with a more talented roster, any judgement on the guy is rash to say the least. At the end of the day, Kevin Payne & the FO are going to have more of a hand in deciding the fate of this rebuild than Nelsen is. If the front office doesn't improve the quality of this roster, then Nelsen is going to have a tough time regardless.

Well he can learn on the job and grow with the team all he wants, but that STILL doesn't tell us if he's going to end up a good manager to begin with.

To help prove my point, just look at Winter. His first season was a write off with people saying it was a rebuilding season. So during his second season when his philosophy and signings has settled down, we have a horrendous 0-9 start. It was clear at this point that this was his limit at the time. He wasn't going to get any better. Thats 2 seasons wasted on poor manager.

This is again why it makes sense to get an experienced manager. He can look at his past squads and have a general idea of what type of players and style to put in. I'm not sure if Nelson knows any of this. Does he know which players work best with his tactics?

I'm hoping for the best, I really am. I would be thrilled if he proves me wrong and we greatly improve. But looking at our track record with managers in the same situation as Nelson, I'm not holding my breath for the meantime.

[ag futbol]

We have so many one dimensional players. Sigh.
This is an interesting observation. For a while, I've been trying to figure out what bothers me about the way TFC are organized without putting a finger on it. But what you've wrote sums it up nicely.

I find modern football has moved away from the idea of specialists while TFC seem to be running head-on towards it. We try to put players in roles that are very functional and narrowly focused. It provides us with consistency which helps defensively, but attack wise we are predictable and stale. It feels very old school 4-4-2, which to be frank is absolutely dead within the game right now.

[JuliquE]

To help prove my point, just look at Winter. His first season was a write off with people saying it was a rebuilding season. So during his second season when his philosophy and signings has settled down, we have a horrendous 0-9 start. It was clear at this point that this was his limit at the time. He wasn't going to get any better. Thats 2 seasons wasted on poor manager.
LAUL

[Sullivan]

No thanks to Yallop. If we're stuck on being Canadian I'll take sasho cirovski (sp).

Visiting my son who lives in the DC area, and we took in TFC at DCU.

No doubt Cirovski ends up in MLS, soon too, and most likely not with TFC.

I'm fully plugged in to NCAA footy - two sons are coaching there.

It's common knowledge that eventually Cirovski wants the US national team gig.

But if the USSF are going to go homegrown with their next coach (and that voice is getting louder) they won't appoint a guy with no pro experience.
It's why Bruce Arena left UVa; it's why Sigi Schmidt left UCLA; and it's why Caleb Porter left Akron.

Personally, I don't see TFC or DCU making coaching changes until we're into next season. However.....

Here's part of the discussion revolving around Cirovski:
- he has nothing left to prove at College Park, or the NCAA.
- this is his 20th season at College Park, he has an out clause on his contract for a pro job.
- currently, he's out of the USSF picture, Porter is making a strong claim with his work in Portland, and Sigi's window is closing, they're the frontrunners.
- his way of doing things has been very successful, both in wins and developing players to play at higher levels.
- but..... he knows Payne very well, too well, and if I'm allowed to speculate, given a choice of TFC or DCU, Cirovski leaves money on the table and takes the DCU gig.
- he won't want Payne in his kitchen, and we know Payne has put himself there with Nelson.

At last night's game, I heard a few more stories about Payne, he's certainly not missed.

Unless TFC is the only gig available, I can see Cirovski going elsewhere. Payne is just too hands on.

Should Leiweke gas all that is related to Payne, Nelson & Co., .... maybe things get a whole lot different.

[CFL]

Visiting my son who lives in the DC area, and we took in TFC at DCU.

No doubt Cirovski ends up in MLS, soon too, and most likely not with TFC.

I'm fully plugged in to NCAA footy - two sons are coaching there.

It's common knowledge that eventually Cirovski wants the US national team gig.

But if the USSF are going to go homegrown with their next coach (and that voice is getting louder) they won't appoint a guy with no pro experience.
It's why Bruce Arena left UVa; it's why Sigi Schmidt left UCLA; and it's why Caleb Porter left Akron.

Personally, I don't see TFC or DCU making coaching changes until we're into next season. However.....

Here's part of the discussion revolving around Cirovski:
- he has nothing left to prove at College Park, or the NCAA.
- this is his 20th season at College Park, he has an out clause on his contract for a pro job.
- currently, he's out of the USSF picture, Porter is making a strong claim with his work in Portland, and Sigi's window is closing, they're the frontrunners.
- his way of doing things has been very successful, both in wins and developing players to play at higher levels.
- but..... he knows Payne very well, too well, and if I'm allowed to speculate, given a choice of TFC or DCU, Cirovski leaves money on the table and takes the DCU gig.
- he won't want Payne in his kitchen, and we know Payne has put himself there with Nelson.

At last night's game, I heard a few more stories about Payne, he's certainly not missed.

Unless TFC is the only gig available, I can see Cirovski going elsewhere. Payne is just too hands on.

Should Leiweke gas all that is related to Payne, Nelson & Co., .... maybe things get a whole lot different.


Ouch. Imagine a national team's coach whose claim to fame is he's coached NCAA. What a joke that would be at this point for the US. Bradley will come back before that. And I hate NCAA coaches in the MLS at this point. Marco Schallibaum has proven that the myth of that Europeans don't know the league and can't win here is a just that. A myth. The MLS has to aspire to get better, NCAA coaches are a step back.

[jloome]

NCAA coaches are a step back.

Bruce Arena, Schellas Hyndman, Caleb Porter are all pretty good coaches. Also all former NCAA.

We don't even have that. We have a rookie and a Division III college coach. Right now, it feels like it.

[ag futbol]

Visiting my son who lives in the DC area, and we took in TFC at DCU.

No doubt Cirovski ends up in MLS, soon too, and most likely not with TFC.

I'm fully plugged in to NCAA footy - two sons are coaching there.

It's common knowledge that eventually Cirovski wants the US national team gig.

But if the USSF are going to go homegrown with their next coach (and that voice is getting louder) they won't appoint a guy with no pro experience.
It's why Bruce Arena left UVa; it's why Sigi Schmidt left UCLA; and it's why Caleb Porter left Akron.

Personally, I don't see TFC or DCU making coaching changes until we're into next season. However.....

Here's part of the discussion revolving around Cirovski:
- he has nothing left to prove at College Park, or the NCAA.
- this is his 20th season at College Park, he has an out clause on his contract for a pro job.
- currently, he's out of the USSF picture, Porter is making a strong claim with his work in Portland, and Sigi's window is closing, they're the frontrunners.
- his way of doing things has been very successful, both in wins and developing players to play at higher levels.
- but..... he knows Payne very well, too well, and if I'm allowed to speculate, given a choice of TFC or DCU, Cirovski leaves money on the table and takes the DCU gig.
- he won't want Payne in his kitchen, and we know Payne has put himself there with Nelson.

At last night's game, I heard a few more stories about Payne, he's certainly not missed.

Unless TFC is the only gig available, I can see Cirovski going elsewhere. Payne is just too hands on.

Should Leiweke gas all that is related to Payne, Nelson & Co., .... maybe things get a whole lot different.
Thanks for the post, quite insightful. I agree it is unlikely that Cirovski would show up in Toronto to work under a rather controlling Kevin Payne. But long run I would think Leiweke and Payne are on a collision course. No way those two big heads can fit under one roof.


Ouch. Imagine a national team's coach whose claim to fame is he's coached NCAA. What a joke that would be at this point for the US. Bradley will come back before that. And I hate NCAA coaches in the MLS at this point. Marco Schallibaum has proven that the myth of that Europeans don't know the league and can't win here is a just that. A myth. The MLS has to aspire to get better, NCAA coaches are a step back.
As far as the NCAA coaching pool goes, I’d say there are good ones and bad ones. Some actually do a good job preparing players for the pro game and are quite knowledgeable. Others are just prolific recruiters and milk the bastardized rules of the NCAA game to get ahead **cough** UCONN **cough.

The league is now in a position where managing a MLS team is closer to managing a MLS team is similar to managing a club elsewhere in the world. I’m not sure how much credit you want to give Schallibaum though. Even their own fans mostly credit success in the transfer market and a strong roster.

[Blizzard]

Thanks for the post, quite insightful. I agree it is unlikely that Cirovski would show up in Toronto to work under a rather controlling Kevin Payne. But long run I would think Leiweke and Payne are on a collision course. No way those two big heads can fit under one roof.

Ya and if Payne is booted, so is Nelsen. I just hope that if that should occur, the new coach and GM don't feel the need to totally destroy the roster again.

[OgtheDim]

Schallibaum is going to wear out his welcome in Montreal. There is a reason why he bounced from team to team in Switzerland.

One of the reasons why you won't see a better quality European manager over here is the money. An assistant, like a Carver, can make a lot more in Europe then he can here.

[OgtheDim]

Ya and if Payne is booted, so is Nelsen. I just hope that if that should occur, the new coach and GM don't feel the need to totally destroy the roster again.

If we are so bad that those two get fired, darn right the roster will get blown up again.

Its why MLS teams take far longer to pull the trigger on GM's these days. A GM change is a 3 year exercise.

[Oldtimer]

Can we stop having this obsessive focus EVERY match about Nelsen's lack of experience prior to TFC? One, it's not helpful. Two, in case you guys haven't noticed, he's no longer inexperienced, he has nearly one whole season behind him. So give it a rest already.

[OgtheDim]

Can we stop having this obsessive focus EVERY match about Nelsen's lack of experience prior to TFC? One, it's not helpful. Two, in case you guys haven't noticed, he's no longer inexperienced, he has nearly one whole season behind him. So give it a rest already.

Oh, I think its just getting started.

I said at the beginning of this season, in that thread about how long you would give Payne and Nelsen until you started judging them, that I would give them until June of next season.

I see no reason to change my mind.

[BuSaPuNk]

Can we stop having this obsessive focus EVERY match about Nelsen's lack of experience prior to TFC? One, it's not helpful. Two, in case you guys haven't noticed, he's no longer inexperienced, he has nearly one whole season behind him. So give it a rest already.

Bingo! +1

Wish people would stop with the constant fire and torch routine it's getting old. You can't win anything with consistant changes at GM, Coach, players the way we have.

Even if we believe that Payne and Nelsen arnt the right people for the job they have to have time to show what that they can do.

[Sullivan]

But long run I would think Leiweke and Payne are on a collision course. No way those two big heads can fit under one roof.
Inevitable.


Others are just prolific recruiters and milk the bastardized rules of the NCAA game to get ahead **cough** UCONN **cough.
Good example. Would have been the 1st one that I would have listed.

[v00d00daddy]

I don't think Nelsen should be fired. He needs more time.

But that doesn't mean that his inexperience doesn't come shining through.

I don't care if its tiresome. It's the truth. And it could very well be the biggest success or failure in Paynes tenure here when all is said and done.

If we can praise the team or players when they do well then we should be able to be critical of people when they fuck up.

Nelsens tactics and player selection yesterday were complete shit. Call it inexperience or incompetence. Either way. It was bad.

It may be getting old to hear but that doesn't make it untrue.

[jloome]

I don't think Nelsen should be fired. He needs more time.

But that doesn't mean that his inexperience doesn't come shining through.

I don't care if its tiresome. It's the truth. And it could very well be the biggest success or failure in Paynes tenure here when all is said and done.

If we can praise the team or players when they do well then we should be able to be critical of people when they fuck up.

Nelsens tactics and player selection yesterday were complete shit. Call it inexperience or incompetence. Either way. It was bad.

It may be getting old to hear but that doesn't make it untrue.

Yes; "it's getting tiresome" isn't a point. It's a statement. It doesn't invalidate any of the arguments about what his inexperience is costing us as we rebuild. It's also not the same as saying "we want him gone, now."

People reach better decisions when the recognize nuance. It's quite possible, based on the number of issues involved, to think they're both useless wankers but that firing either right now is still premature.

[BuSaPuNk]

I don't think Nelsen should be fired. He needs more time.

But that doesn't mean that his inexperience doesn't come shining through.

I don't care if its tiresome. It's the truth. And it could very well be the biggest success or failure in Paynes tenure here when all is said and done.

If we can praise the team or players when they do well then we should be able to be critical of people when they fuck up.

Nelsens tactics and player selection yesterday were complete shit. Call it inexperience or incompetence. Either way. It was bad.

It may be getting old to hear but that doesn't make it untrue.

You have to have a chance to gain experience before you have it. I believe Payne went into this year knowing we're in a mess. Our cap and lack of quality was a big problem. He's addressed alot of those issues.

I have no problem having Nelsen learn on the job with an inexperienced group of players they can build a foundation together. If there's not a soild start next season then it's time to address him as coach. Until them we back him and give him support.

[v00d00daddy]

Sure. But what does that mean? Back him and support him means that he can do no wrong because this is a building year?

I wish I could get a job like that.

Absolutely no expectations and free reign to make as many mistakes without the fear of any consequences.

[Ivy]

He was hired to learn on the job - Payne knew that, MLSE knew that. The "disciplinary" actions towards someone who is hired to learn on the job are different than they would be on someone who is brought it due to their resume or pedigree. If Nelsen was showing complete incompetence and damaging the team, I could see disciplinary action being taken towards him. However, though it may not be as quick as soon people wish, TFC has, and still is, going through a major overhaul. I see a lot of positives, and much more improved play over last year.

Everybody is a bad driver when they first get in a car - give him time and allow him to get comfortable in his own shoes.

[BuSaPuNk]

Sure. But what does that mean? Back him and support him means that he can do no wrong because this is a building year?

I wish I could get a job like that.

Absolutely no expectations and free reign to make as many mistakes without the fear of any consequences.

Mistakes through the eyes of yourself. We don't know if management thinks there bad decisions. Anything they do could be made as a bad decision.

[BuSaPuNk]

Sure. But what does that mean? Back him and support him means that he can do no wrong because this is a building year?

I wish I could get a job like that.

Absolutely no expectations and free reign to make as many mistakes without the fear of any consequences.

Listen if a mass firing and torches and pitchforks is what you want I'm sure this is the wrong place for you. I'm pretty sure I don't need to post our charter do I?

There's a time and place to make complaints. Jumping on failure means nothing. Working to bring us to what we should be is what we should be doing.

[Ivy]

Mistakes through the eyes of yourself. We don't know if management thinks there bad decisions. Anything they do could be made as a bad decision.
That seems to be the agenda for many.

[v00d00daddy]

Mistakes through the eyes of yourself. We don't know if management thinks there bad decisions. Anything they do could be made as a bad decision.

Doesn't that go without saying? It's just my opinion.


Listen if a mass firing and torches and pitchforks is what you want I'm sure this is the wrong place for you. I'm pretty sure I don't need to post our charter do I?

There's a time and place to make complaints. Jumping on failure means nothing. Working to bring us to what we should be is what we should be doing.

Hold on. What have I said that violates the charter? Pitchforks and a mass firing? I said that I don't think he should be fired and that he should be given more time. All I'm saying is that during that time, if I think he (or any other person at TFC), does something that I don't agree with I should be allowed to say so.


That seems to be the agenda for many.

I don't have an agenda. But if this is a place to talk about this team with other people who want to see TFC succeed then why is voicing an opinion, backed up with evidence in the form of things said and done, seen as an agenda?

This is getting a little bizarre.

[ag futbol]

He was hired to learn on the job - Payne knew that, MLSE knew that. The "disciplinary" actions towards someone who is hired to learn on the job are different than they would be on someone who is brought it due to their resume or pedigree. If Nelsen was showing complete incompetence and damaging the team, I could see disciplinary action being taken towards him. However, though it may not be as quick as soon people wish, TFC has, and still is, going through a major overhaul. I see a lot of positives, and much more improved play over last year.

Everybody is a bad driver when they first get in a car - give him time and allow him to get comfortable in his own shoes.
The direction of the team undoubtedly changed once Leiweke joined MLSE. Remember all the talk of this being a rebuilding year? That dried up very quickly once that hire happened. You could say the same about the “no old guys” DP policy which suddenly morphed into finding an exception if that involved a superstar player.

Leiweke did an interview a little while ago and he frequently made references to TFC starting to “act” like a big club as opposed to what they’ve done in the past. He said TFC repeatedly made small-time moves when their potential means they should have been shooting for the fences.

So given this is the type of vision he’s been articulating, I have a really hard time believing that his plan includes giving a young manager a lot of rope to get up to speed.

[jloome]

Doesn't that go without saying? It's just my opinion.



Hold on. What have I said that violates the charter? Pitchforks and a mass firing? I said that I don't think he should be fired and that he should be given more time. All I'm saying is that during that time, if I think he (or any other person at TFC), does something that I don't agree with I should be allowed to say so.



I don't have an agenda. But if this is a place to talk about this team with other people who want to see TFC succeed then why is voicing an opinion, backed up with evidence in the form of things said and done, seen as an agenda?

This is getting a little bizarre.

Like I said, no nuance. There were some pitchforks on that page of posts, dude, but they were aimed at you, not payne and nelsen.

Eek.

I frequently disagree with people who are hasty to call for peoples' heads. At the same time, being a supporter or part of a supporter's group should never mean you're forced to lack objectivity. That's when groups stop serving a socially beneficial purpose, typically.

[jloome]

The direction of the team undoubtedly changed once Leiweke joined MLSE. Remember all the talk of this being a rebuilding year? That dried up very quickly once that hire happened. You could say the same about the “no old guys” DP policy which suddenly morphed into finding an exception if that involved a superstar player.

Leiweke did an interview a little while ago and he frequently made references to TFC starting to “act” like a big club as opposed to what they’ve done in the past. He said TFC repeatedly made small-time moves when their potential means they should have been shooting for the fences.

So given this is the type of vision he’s been articulating, I have a really hard time believing that his plan includes giving a young manager a lot of rope to get up to speed.

It's quite possible based on his past that Nelsen gets until mid season next year and no more before Lieweke loses patience and starts slinging dough for someone more high profile.

But I doubt he'll react until they've had a preseason with room to maneuver under the cap. Let's face it, we're still fielding a 60-75% 'B' team compared to most sides.

[ag futbol]

It's quite possible based on his past that Nelsen gets until mid season next year and no more before Lieweke loses patience and starts slinging dough for someone more high profile.

But I doubt he'll react until they've had a preseason with room to maneuver under the cap. Let's face it, we're still fielding a 60-75% 'B' team compared to most sides.
Oh I agree with you there. I give Nelsen a 95% chance of being the coach opening day 2014... but I think the pressure to perform will be there from very early on.

Prior to Leiweke I think a "soft" season next year would probably have been tolerated. But now I don't see it as a possibility.

[BuSaPuNk]

Hold on. What have I said that violates the charter? Pitchforks and a mass firing? I said that I don't think he should be fired and that he should be given more time. All I'm saying is that during that time, if I think he (or any other person at TFC), does something that I don't agree with I should be allowed to say so.



I don't have an agenda. But if this is a place to talk about this team with other people who want to see TFC succeed then why is voicing an opinion, backed up with evidence in the form of things said and done, seen as an agenda?

This is getting a little bizarre.

You didn't do anything to violate the charter and i'm not saying you did, but the charter says clearly that we support this team on the pitch for 90 mins through thick and thin.

We have outlets to have our voices heard about mismanagement though different channels. But when the boys are on the pitch we support. Leave the bull and politics at the door.