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View Full Version : Dempsey to Seattle back story.....same old shaft for Toronto



Leafs 92/93
08-05-2013, 01:54 PM
Same ol' kick in the junk for MLS/Toronto fans.


http://deadspin.com/how-mls-made-sure-clint-dempsey-landed-in-seattle-1030615076 (http://deadspin.com/how-mls-made-sure-clint-dempsey-landed-in-seattle-1030615076)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/news/20130805/clint-dempsey-seattle-sounders-mls/

Cringe-worthy quote:
Wahl's sources say "Toronto...accepted that it was better for the league if Dempsey were playing in a U.S. city."

Extrapolating that logic, it's better for the league if Toronto never wins an MLS cup and carries on happily buying tickets in our small market forever.....

OgtheDim
08-05-2013, 02:05 PM
So what you are saying is Dempsey would win us the league?


BTW, accepted in MLS terms usually means "we will let this one slide but we've got a deal coming we could use some help on".

brad
08-05-2013, 02:07 PM
The nice thing about that article is that it says we were one of the three teams Dempsy would play for. Does a lot to dispel the notion that no big name players want to come here.

bones
08-05-2013, 02:18 PM
Seriously, I just threw up a little in my mouth. How can the MLS cover part of the transfer fee to help one of the teams get a potential game changer? Isn't that tampering or some other legal term???

Unless the league is going to help us pay for effing Rooney or a player of that caliber then I am completely disgusted. But then, come to think of it, if they do then how would all the other teams (except for LA and NY of course for obvious reasons) feel and it doesn't help to keep tampering. MLSE has WAY more money to get Dempsey...holy FF!!!!

I'm completely gobsmacked after reading this.

[NBF]
08-05-2013, 02:41 PM
HAHAHA.......

The haves and have nots. Just wait until the NYCFC starts to game the system in their favor.

Shakes McQueen
08-05-2013, 02:42 PM
Wahl's sources say "Toronto...accepted that it was better for the league if Dempsey were playing in a U.S. city."

I like how the article throws that line in like it's no big deal.

The league essentially insisted that Toronto drop their bid (because I highly doubt they "accepted" the league's argument about where he should play), and then helped pay Dempsey's transfer fee to go to Seattle? I understand that young leagues sometimes need to do strange things to ensure ongoing health, but good god MLS feels like they make up the rules as they go along sometimes.

- Scott

mowe
08-05-2013, 02:59 PM
Not a big deal. Dempsey only brings off the pitch value for an American team. And considering the kind of money he wanted, you need him to help off the pitch too. He would not have been worth that salary here.

You omitted a key part with those ellipses: TFC is working on their own DPs. Maybe whoever they bring in will be a better fit, we'll see soon enough (I hope).

I do think it's cool to see that Toronto was up there with LA and Seattle as the top destinations. Shows we're still attractive to international stars.

Shakes McQueen
08-05-2013, 03:22 PM
I don't think the fucked up part about this, has anything to do with how great of a fit Dempsey would have been here (or not). It's the idea that a team could essentially be told by the league, to drop their interest in the player, so that player can go somewhere else that the league determines is a better fit for their own designs. And that a news article about it, could throw this in so nonchalantly.

- Scott

Marc"2L"
08-05-2013, 03:44 PM
The league pays the transfer fee, for now.

But I'm sure Seattle have set up a tradition transfer payment plan over the course of the contract to MLS.

mowe
08-05-2013, 03:48 PM
Maybe the news article was so nonchalant because it's not a big deal? You're projecting a lot based on your interpretation of one word in the article ("accepted").

We don't know what priority TFC placed on signing Dempsey. Leiweke wants a big name, but Dempsey wanted Beckham-level money and he's not a Beckham-level name in Toronto. Again, the article mentions TFC is pursuing their own DPs. Maybe now or later there will be another player who is worth $24 million, we'll have to wait and see.

jabbronies
08-05-2013, 03:53 PM
I'd like to hear what TFC brass has to say about this whole situation.

TBH - I'm not surprised Dempsy would be on a US team - Isn't he the national teams biggest star? Makes sense for him to be in the US - especially Seattle. He'll get more exposure there. Let's not forget, the way things stand right now, TFC viewership, both in the stands on on TV, is in on the decline; Seattle's isn't!

[NBF]
08-05-2013, 04:36 PM
Geezus..... who do they think he is?

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/dam/assets/130804012924-dempsey-story-seattle-single-image-cut.jpg

Does the "who are ya?" chant apply to this?

Marc"2L"
08-05-2013, 04:47 PM
If you troll him, I fear what he will produce.

BuSaPuNk
08-05-2013, 04:47 PM
^ preach from the pulpit there bud. Lol. Guy hasn't even played a game yet and there treating him like the second coming of Pele or something. Lol

Shakes McQueen
08-05-2013, 05:09 PM
They are excited. I wish I was able to get excited more often.

- Scott

Red CB Toronto
08-05-2013, 05:39 PM
I for one will be looking forward to seeing Clint on the pitch Saturday night at BMO Field. It is real treat to watch the best and he is one of them, having seen him play a number of times in person with the USMNT. I do want to the Reds to win no doubt but watching one of the best always makes the game that more interesting.

tfcleeds
08-05-2013, 05:51 PM
It's getting to the point now where the way this league is run is really starting to piss me off.

sully
08-05-2013, 06:05 PM
This league won't have any real legitimacy until the clubs within it are run by those clubs themselves. This episode is just a reminder of how rediculous the way this leagues works is. Its really hard to stay a supporter of tfc when you've got garber and co behind running things in their own secret and random way....

Marc"2L"
08-05-2013, 06:13 PM
^ preach from the pulpit there bud. Lol. Guy hasn't even played a game yet and there treating him like the second coming of Pele or something. Lol

Well, I don't know, the United States is in a different place when it comes to their national team, and this is their captain. They ponder stuff regarding how far they can go in a World Cup when we dream of a hex. I think they're showing an appropriate amount of excitement.
He's got personality, if we troll I'm sure it'll be far more hilarious to Seattle than it will be to us. Just a feeling.

Either way, quality to the league is a good thing.

Richard
08-05-2013, 06:17 PM
This league won't have any real legitimacy until the clubs within it are run by those clubs themselves. This episode is just a reminder of how rediculous the way this leagues works is. Its really hard to stay a supporter of tfc when you've got garber and co behind running things in their own secret and random way....

Its anything but random. Everything he does revolves around marketing and the growth of the league. He and MLS picks and chooses which teams can have high profile players. Can you imagine a hypothetical situation where Crosby was a free agent, the leafs have him close to being locked up, then Gary comes in and says you need to play in LA because we need the money for TV deals etc... What the league is doing is illegal, I'm sure they are violating some law, just no one gives a flying fuck because its MLS.

sully
08-05-2013, 06:21 PM
^^ you're right and we're just here to make sure the business might make sone profits from the business perspective. But you have to separate the business from the club support somehow or it will become more pointless inevitably..

BuSaPuNk
08-05-2013, 06:24 PM
Well, I don't know, the United States is in a different place when it comes to their national team, and this is their captain. They ponder stuff regarding how far they can go in a World Cup when we dream of a hex. I think they're showing an appropriate amount of excitement.
He's got personality, if we troll I'm sure it'll be far more hilarious to Seattle than it will be to us. Just a feeling.

Either way, quality to the league is a good thing.

Oh for sure it's a great thing for the leauge. And I'm really liking that a guy in his prime has come back. Makes it more of a legitimate place to come for other players.

I just love how they roll out the red carpet for these guys. Becks, Henry, Dempsey. You never know how this works out. Dempsey might regress and suffer from lack of talent around him.

Pretty sure he was surrounded with more talent in Tottenham and Fulham then he will be in Seattle.

__wowza
08-05-2013, 07:19 PM
this is an interesting read, although toronto didn't get fucked, portland did..

http://www.onceametro.com/2013/8/3/4584460/clint-dempsey-move-doesnt-pass-the-smell-test
http://www.onceametro.com/2013/8/4/4588060/follow-up-clint-dempsey-move-still-stinks

they literally rewrote the rules to get him into seattle.


edit for addition of inappropriate signage:
http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/clint.png

habstfc
08-05-2013, 07:52 PM
It was embarrassing the other night in seattle, you'd have thought rinaldo was signed or something. Dempsey is no doubt a very good player but not an elite player. He only scored 7 goals last year. He's 30 years old as well a little past his prime I think. He'll still be one of mls top scorers next year but hardly worth 8 million bucks a year. He doesn't have the beckham effect either. I can't see people in mls coming out to see seattle now because dempseys plays for them now. MLS is a joke with their rules , we've known this here for a while now but people down in the states are now seeing it clearly as well.

Yohan
08-05-2013, 07:54 PM
Apparently the league has a war chest to spend on transfer fees for star players, and Dempsey falls in this category. So if TFC does attract attention of a star player, theoretically TFC can have access to this war chest too.

It is part of MLS's plan to drive up TV ratings when the new TV deal gets negotiated. MLS FO understands that TV stations need ratings to sell their product, and MLS has to drive up the ratings somehow. And Deuce is the star player... *shrug*

I don't like how this all end up playing out, but for MLS FO, it's more than just competition at stake... TV ratings is more important I guess, in order to make a profit.

Yohan
08-05-2013, 07:55 PM
It was embarrassing the other night in seattle, you'd have thought rinaldo was signed or something. Dempsey is no doubt a very good player but not an elite player. He only scored 7 goals last year. He's 30 years old as well a little past his prime I think. He'll still be one of mls top scorers next year but hardly worth 8 million bucks a year. He doesn't have the beckham effect either. I can't see people in mls coming out to see seattle now because dempseys plays for them now. MLS is a joke with their rules , we've known this here for a while now but people down in the states are now seeing it clearly as well.
really? 40k ppl were in stands to witness Dempsey's (rather comical) unveiling. I think you're underestimating the amount of buzz this has generated in Seattle and US soccer community

habstfc
08-05-2013, 08:11 PM
really? 40k ppl were in stands to witness Dempsey's (rather comical) unveiling. I think you're underestimating the amount of buzz this has generated in Seattle and US soccer community There would have been 40,000 there anyaways. He doesn't have the celebrity status beckham had most people in the US probably have never heard of him.

Detroit_TFC
08-05-2013, 08:41 PM
There would have been 40,000 there anyaways. He doesn't have the celebrity status beckham had most people in the US probably have never heard of him.

True on the SSFC turnout. True on not being a household name, he won't be appearing on any afternoon talk shows. But among US soccer people this has been huge and unleashed a massive discussion of MLS policies and practices. This is a good discussion to have.

MLS is chafing against it's own rules. But wasn't that bound to happen eventually in a growing, maturing league? A lot of these rules were put in place to prevent team failure and control expenditures. Now there are owners with deep pockets and eager to compete with each other.

I am looking forward to the next CBA negotiations. I get the feeling there are going to be some changes in how things are done. The question is how far-reaching those changes will be.

habstfc
08-05-2013, 08:50 PM
MLS is chafing against it's own rules. But wasn't that bound to happen eventually in a growing, maturing league? A lot of these rules were put in place to prevent team failure and control expenditures. Now there are owners with deep pockets and eager to compete with each other.

True but there are only 4 or 5 teams with deep pockets that can compete in that way. I think one of the reasons Dempsey mentioned Toronto is because he knows they have the money he wanted in salary.

ManUtd4ever
08-05-2013, 09:12 PM
The Don will make it up to us when the time is right. ;)

I know the optics are cringeworthy at the moment, but at the end of the day, I think we deserve a better DP than Dempsey in Toronto.

Detroit_TFC
08-05-2013, 09:25 PM
True but there are only 4 or 5 teams with deep pockets that can compete in that way. I think one of the reasons Dempsey mentioned Toronto is because he knows they have the money he wanted in salary.

Absolutely! Curious as to why he didn't rate RBNY - they have an open DP slot.

Probably could make the case that DCU's owners could afford him too but with the stadium deal at a sensitive point, probably not looking to drop a lot of money on a big contract.

SKB
08-05-2013, 10:12 PM
How the league has handled the Dempsey deal is a disaster on two fronts. Wait till the next CBA then there is going to be trouble. Are they going to plead they have no money? Also they are creating a league of have and have not. That will quickly put the some franchises in trouble. Chivas should be folded and Columbus will be the next one to go.

Cashcleaner
08-05-2013, 11:56 PM
I don't think the fucked up part about this, has anything to do with how great of a fit Dempsey would have been here (or not). It's the idea that a team could essentially be told by the league, to drop their interest in the player, so that player can go somewhere else that the league determines is a better fit for their own designs. And that a news article about it, could throw this in so nonchalantly.

- Scott
THIS.


Seriously. I think I'm in the same camp as you, Shakes. I'm just at a total loss here. We are a football club, correct? The goal of our management team is to build a roster that will win games, correct? Now how can we possibly do that if the league can just come in and place any new players where it wants?

I mean, I just don't get this.



It's getting to the point now where the way this league is run is really starting to piss me off.

Yep. It's getting fucking ridiculous now.


This league won't have any real legitimacy until the clubs within it are run by those clubs themselves. This episode is just a reminder of how ridiculous the way this leagues works is. Its really hard to stay a supporter of tfc when you've got garber and co behind running things in their own secret and random way....

Exactly. This is really just another great example that footy fans outsiede of North America can point to criticize MLS as an organization. And frankly, they are well warranted to.


How the league has handled the Dempsey deal is a disaster on two fronts. Wait till the next CBA then there is going to be trouble. Are they going to plead they have no money? Also they are creating a league of have and have not. That will quickly put the some franchises in trouble. Chivas should be folded and Columbus will be the next one to go.

Good point. I never really thought of that, but it's so true. Another thought, how many other clubs in this league are okay with these backroom deals? Sure LA, New York, and apparently Seattle don't seem to mind the special relationship they enjoy with the league; but they are not the majority here. A lot of other clubs (like the ones you mentioned) could really use that sort of attention.

mowe
08-06-2013, 12:11 AM
Good point. I never really thought of that, but it's so true. Another thought, how many other clubs in this league are okay with these backroom deals? Sure LA, New York, and apparently Seattle don't seem to mind the special relationship they enjoy with the league; but they are not the majority here. A lot of other clubs (like the ones you mentioned) could really use that sort of attention.

Apparently the league's owners voted to OK paying the transfer fee. The decision couldn't have been made without their approval.

Cashcleaner
08-06-2013, 12:53 AM
^ And that just raises further questions!

Red CB Toronto
08-06-2013, 01:44 AM
Is their another single entity soccer league any where in this world?

Oldtimer
08-06-2013, 05:10 AM
This deal is about raising interest ahead of the next TV deal. It will benefit all clubs financially, including TFC. A better TV deal means more money for salaries and a higher cap... leading towards the goal of MLS becoming a top league.

BTW, people should understand that there is no way Toronto won't receive some future consideration, as will LA. In fact Payne is wiley enough to feign interest in someone who doesn't fit the style Toronto wants to play just in order to receive compensation from Seattle and/or the league. You know there will be something coming TFC's way, either in help to land a world class DP, or in allocation cash that somehow enables TFC to spend a lot more.

CretanBull
08-06-2013, 05:54 AM
This deal is about raising interest ahead of the next TV deal. It will benefit all clubs financially, including TFC. A better TV deal means more money for salaries and a higher cap... leading towards the goal of MLS becoming a top league. I'm sure this is part of the league's thinking, but does anyone seriously think that Dempsey alone will have an impact on the value of a TV deal? Sure, it helps but I doubt if the impact will be measureable in any sort of meaningful way.


BTW, people should understand that there is no way Toronto won't receive some future consideration, as will LA. In fact Payne is wiley enough to feign interest in someone who doesn't fit the style Toronto wants to play just in order to receive compensation from Seattle and/or the league. You know there will be something coming TFC's way, either in help to land a world class DP, or in allocation cash that somehow enables TFC to spend a lot more. I'm 99% certain that you're right about this...and I also think that this type of shady backroom stuff hurts the credibility of the league.

Oldtimer
08-06-2013, 07:47 AM
I'm sure this is part of the league's thinking, but does anyone seriously think that Dempsey alone will have an impact on the value of a TV deal? Sure, it helps but I doubt if the impact will be measureable in any sort of meaningful way.



Dempsey alone? No way. However, expect to see more high-end talent signed by various teams. Over the next couple of years it will make an impact, both on and off the field.

Why?

The league is quite clever marketing-wise to focus on DPs rather than the squad players. For knowledgeable football supporters, we realize that raising the salary cap and upgrading the non-DP slots, players #4-18 would have a much bigger impact on quality of play than just 3 DPs, as good as the DPs may be. However, MLS recognizes that having a few amazing players that everyone can look up to rather than a having lot more of the just solid players sparks the interest of the average person and helps with TV revenues. Many more people would tune in to watch, say a Kaka playing for TFC than a team full of Osarios, even though a team full of Osarios would make the football much nicer to watch than a team full of scrubs, plus Kaka.

Phil
08-06-2013, 08:55 AM
From what I can tell, we inquired about Dempsey and then the chance came. At that point we were pretty hellbent on one particular player and it was very close to being done. From a TFC perspective, the MLS had better live up to its promise to help us out.

On the MLS side of things, it looks very bad and sketchy. They should have better policies if they are going to run around 'installing' players and making up rules.

Shakes McQueen
08-06-2013, 09:02 AM
This deal is about raising interest ahead of the next TV deal. It will benefit all clubs financially, including TFC. A better TV deal means more money for salaries and a higher cap... leading towards the goal of MLS becoming a top league.

BTW, people should understand that there is no way Toronto won't receive some future consideration, as will LA. In fact Payne is wiley enough to feign interest in someone who doesn't fit the style Toronto wants to play just in order to receive compensation from Seattle and/or the league. You know there will be something coming TFC's way, either in help to land a world class DP, or in allocation cash that somehow enables TFC to spend a lot more.

The fact that this "make it up as you go along" strategizing, will possibly land Toronto some quid pro quo in the future, doesn't really give me any comfort. I'd sooner have a league that operates by sane, consistent rules, that apply to everyone equally.

This kind of direct meddling in player transfers, is, and has always been, bush league stuff.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
08-06-2013, 09:05 AM
From what I can tell, we inquired about Dempsey and then the chance came. At that point we were pretty hellbent on one particular player and it was very close to being done. From a TFC perspective, the MLS had better live up to its promise to help us out.

On the MLS side of things, it looks very bad and sketchy. They should have better policies if they are going to run around 'installing' players and making up rules.

At least, based on this, we can pretty much put to bed any notion that MLS haven't afforded Los Angeles special treatment under the "rules" (are they even rules any more, if they are regularly suspended with impunity?)

- Scott

Fort York Redcoat
08-06-2013, 09:25 AM
Same ol' kick in the junk for MLS/Toronto fans.


http://deadspin.com/how-mls-made-sure-clint-dempsey-landed-in-seattle-1030615076 (http://deadspin.com/how-mls-made-sure-clint-dempsey-landed-in-seattle-1030615076)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/news/20130805/clint-dempsey-seattle-sounders-mls/

Cringe-worthy quote:
Wahl's sources say "Toronto...accepted that it was better for the league if Dempsey were playing in a U.S. city."

Extrapolating that logic, it's better for the league if Toronto never wins an MLS cup and carries on happily buying tickets in our small market forever.....

I am soundly in the camp that it is better that captain America was not our DP. There are more DP players in other countries than in America. Plenty of Americans in our roster over the years.

Fort York Redcoat
08-06-2013, 09:29 AM
I like how the article throws that line in like it's no big deal.

The league essentially insisted that Toronto drop their bid (because I highly doubt they "accepted" the league's argument about where he should play), and then helped pay Dempsey's transfer fee to go to Seattle? I understand that young leagues sometimes need to do strange things to ensure ongoing health, but good god MLS feels like they make up the rules as they go along sometimes.

- Scott


I don't think the fucked up part about this, has anything to do with how great of a fit Dempsey would have been here (or not). It's the idea that a team could essentially be told by the league, to drop their interest in the player, so that player can go somewhere else that the league determines is a better fit for their own designs. And that a news article about it, could throw this in so nonchalantly.

- Scott

Brian MacBride. But it doesn't end there.

And you can sub "more often than not" when it comes to transfer loopholes.

ensco
08-06-2013, 09:41 AM
Dempsey in Toronto would have been dumb. But that doesn't excuse what happened here.

Portland, who own the top pick in the allocation order, got totally screwed. It's ridiculous.

pekduck
08-06-2013, 09:43 AM
Dempsey in Toronto would have been dumb. But that doesn't excuse what happened here.

Portland, who own the top pick in the allocation order, got totally screwed. It's ridiculous.

I doubt Portland will spend 30 mil on Dempsey. However, they have leverage/bargaining power, I hope, against the league now by crying foul. May be they'll be awarded a large mystery amount of allocation money...

ManUtd4ever
08-06-2013, 09:52 AM
This deal is about raising interest ahead of the next TV deal. It will benefit all clubs financially, including TFC. A better TV deal means more money for salaries and a higher cap... leading towards the goal of MLS becoming a top league.

BTW, people should understand that there is no way Toronto won't receive some future consideration, as will LA. In fact Payne is wiley enough to feign interest in someone who doesn't fit the style Toronto wants to play just in order to receive compensation from Seattle and/or the league. You know there will be something coming TFC's way, either in help to land a world class DP, or in allocation cash that somehow enables TFC to spend a lot more.
Bingo. The Dempsey saga should really come as no surprise to anyone who has followed this league for a few years. It is what it is, for better or worse. I don't agree with it, but I've come to accept it.

Wolves_On_Tour
08-06-2013, 09:59 AM
It was embarrassing the other night in seattle, you'd have thought rinaldo was signed or something.....

Who is "RINALDO"?
:noidea:

Despite all their flaws and annoyances, the USA certainly support and go crazy for their own. Fans will definitely come out to watch this prick. I for one am happy we didn't sign him. Great player...when he wants to be. I will be through the (proverbial) roof if we sign the two Maxi's this week.

Super
08-06-2013, 10:01 AM
Bingo. The Dempsey saga should really come as no surprise to anyone who has followed this league for a few years. It is what it is, for better or worse. I don't agree with it, but I've come to accept it.

You're right. It's no surprise. But that's no reason to accept it. Garber needs to understand that making these types of moves will hurt the league. It may benefit the league to have a top player like Dempsey involved, but at a very high cost. Everybody is talking about this, and everybody is concerned. It's bush league. We can't accept that.

MartinUtd
08-06-2013, 10:02 AM
Two things strike me about this transfer:

The first is the Vince McMahon vibe I'm getting from Don Garber. The second is that it took just 1 year for Dempsey to go from "I want to play in Europe" to "I want to go home." Something is up with that guy's motivation.

ensco
08-06-2013, 10:03 AM
I doubt Portland will spend 30 mil on Dempsey. However, they have leverage/bargaining power, I hope, against the league now by crying foul. May be they'll be awarded a large mystery amount of allocation money...

But Portland lost whatever they are entitled to receive for that slot in trade. We got very meaningful assets for Bocanegra, and for McBride for that matter, in the analogous situations.

This is very meaningful, as these top slots can expire worthless (ours did last year).

Fact: Portland got screwed worse than any team has in the 7 years I've been closely following this league.

Phil
08-06-2013, 10:09 AM
You're right. It's no surprise. But that's no reason to accept it. Garber needs to understand that making these types of moves will hurt the league. It may benefit the league to have a top player like Dempsey involved, but at a very high cost. Everybody is talking about this, and everybody is concerned. It's bush league. We can't accept that.

We are all way more invested in this league than most that will flock to Seattle and rally around Dempsy, the USA soccer beacon. Same as Beckham. They will leverage this along with the upcoming World Cup to promote the sport and the league.

Does that make it right? Hell no. The worst part is thinking about how they will level out the wrongs in making this move for other clubs like Portland. Mystery money and compensations all under the cloak of darkness.

JonO
08-06-2013, 10:20 AM
Dempsey in Toronto would have been dumb. But that doesn't excuse what happened here.

Portland, who own the top pick in the allocation order, got totally screwed. It's ridiculous.
I agree about Portland... sort of...

There is a post by Goff about this which states that:

There is a loophole, however. It’s not listed in MLS’s roster rules and regulations available to the public, and as far as we can tell, has only been implemented one other time (Reyna signing with the New York Red Bulls in 2007).Because Dempsey is a designated player (earning in excess of $368,000 annually), he was exempt from the allocation order, which, coincidentally, is headed by Seattle’s chief rivals, the Portland Timbers. (The Sounders are second.) We’ll refrain from exploring hypothetical scenarios in which the Timbers could have disrupted Seattle’s plans. The point is, while MLS executives, general managers and coaches may have understood the rule, the public was left in the dark.
So it is possible that the move was legit, but it sure does stink...

Whole Goff post is here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/soccer-insider/wp/2013/08/05/clint-dempsey-signing-demonstrates-mlss-growth-and-immaturity/
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/soccer-insider/wp/2013/08/05/clint-dempsey-signing-demonstrates-mlss-growth-and-immaturity/)

OgtheDim
08-06-2013, 10:33 AM
I'm thinking this part of the pitch to NBC about a new TV contract.

NBC gets the EPL. Doesn't need Americans to sell it.

Best American player in the EPL comes to the US. That helps sell MLS.

Synergies?

cmonyoureds
08-06-2013, 11:34 AM
I doubt Portland will spend 30 mil on Dempsey. However, they have leverage/bargaining power, I hope, against the league now by crying foul. May be they'll be awarded a large mystery amount of allocation money...

This worries me. The league conspires to have Dempsey end up in Seattle, then has to pacify/reward Portland. Now it's two teams getting alleged preferential treatment because of one player.

What happens when the league wants a big name player in the city holding 8th place on the allocation list? Who keeps track of that mother of a flow chart describing "who gets what" in order to make it happen.

My favorite quote is the one about "league felt important that he didn't end up in L.A"

LMFAO

Maybe the league should do a survey on how many people think there's ALREADY funny business in how L.A keeps their teams together.

WestStandGeoff
08-06-2013, 11:35 AM
Decent piece by Rycroft on the CBC site today.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/opinion/2013/08/clint-dempsey-move-exposes-grey-area-in-mls-rules.html

Super
08-06-2013, 11:36 AM
This league will not be respectable until it rids itself of these bush league salary cap rules, and ceases to interfere with the operations of each individual club. No favoritism. No telling clubs who they can and can't sign. No gifting clubs with millions of dollars while others get nothing. Enough already. It's quite frankly embarrassing. I mean, aren't we supposed to be a real league? What the hell is going on.

Whatever. I'll continue to go to games because it's a fun day out. But unfortunately I can't see it as a serious league. Might as well change up the rules on the pitch too. Get rid of draws and do penalties instead. Count the clock backwards. Do kick-in instead of throw-in. They changed these rules to be more respectable on the international stage. But that's all for nothing now. I'm sorry, but it's just impossible for me to get invested in a league where there is so much backroom dealing going on. It's cheating. Then what's the point?

brad
08-06-2013, 11:47 AM
This league will not be respectable until it rids itself of these bush league salary cap rules, and ceases to interfere with the operations of each individual club. No favoritism. No telling clubs who they can and can't sign. No gifting clubs with millions of dollars while others get nothing. Enough already. It's quite frankly embarrassing. I mean, aren't we supposed to be a real league? What the hell is going on.

Whatever. I'll continue to go to games because it's a fun day out. But unfortunately I can't see it as a serious league. Might as well change up the rules on the pitch too. Get rid of draws and do penalties instead. Count the clock backwards. Do kick-in instead of throw-in. They changed these rules to be more respectable on the international stage. But that's all for nothing now. I'm sorry, but it's just impossible for me to get invested in a league where there is so much backroom dealing going on. It's cheating. Then what's the point?

Honestly, no, we aren't unfortunately. MLS is a business, and the teams are it's assets which it controls. It manipulates them for the greater good of the business (as it sees fit), and tries to create the illusion of being a real league. The greater good for them is increasing the exposure of the game/league, building the popularity of the sport and likely making more money. It's not ensuring a level playing field for everyone.


I wish it was different. I wish we were an actual league, where teams controlled their own destiny, but we are not. The sooner we start realizing and accepting this (not directed at you Super - a general comment), the less frustrating it becomes. It is what it is, don't expect it to be something it is not. Live with it, or leave it alone.


And despite all the above, we might be better off in the long run for it. These guys have done an amazing job in growing the game/league so far.

Oldtimer
08-06-2013, 11:48 AM
So it is possible that the move was legit, but it sure does stink...



It only stinks for us fans who get confused by all of the rules. The GMs are surely aware of the myriad exceptions and details. I'm sure the GMs fully knew of the "retention moneys" quietly made available to retain star players (imagine if this was in place when DeRo was writing cheques!) but these funds were never made public.

I think that part of this is part of the game plan when dealing with the Player's Union. The league will release phony stats that show that most MLS teams are losing money (because the stats will exclude TV revenues which fall under SUM) and keep hush-hush the fact that the league is swimming in money. So all of these funds are kept secret so that the Union thinks that each team has only $3 million to spend on the whole team, whereas really the teams have more. Much, much, more. Rich people aren't stupid, they don't spend $100 million on a franchise in order to lose money.




I wish it was different. I wish we were an actual league, where teams controlled their own destiny, but we are not. The sooner we start realizing and accepting this (not directed at you Super - a general comment), the less frustrating it becomes. It is what it is, don't expect it to be something it is not. Live with it, or leave it alone.

It is a real league in many ways, and it isn't in others (especially in it's legal set-up). Many leagues revenue-share things like TV revenues, it's just that in MLS the sharing is much higher plus the single-entity legal structure means that the FO is much more powerful than in anything you'd see elsewhere. The world-wide trend is towards more league control, limits on salaries, and revenue-sharing, but no-one is as extreme in that regards as MLS is.

In other sports, nobody would say that the NFL isn't a "real league" but it has an interfering FO as well, and was the model in many ways for MLS.

Super
08-06-2013, 11:52 AM
Honestly, no, we aren't unfortunately. MLS is a business, and the teams are it's assets which it controls. It manipulates them for the greater good of the business (as it sees fit), and tries to create the illusion of being a real league. The greater good for them is increasing the exposure of the game/league, building the popularity of the sport and likely making more money. It's not ensuring a level playing field for everyone.


I wish it was different. I wish we were an actual league, where teams controlled their own destiny, but we are not. The sooner we start realizing and accepting this (not directed at you Super - a general comment), the less frustrating it becomes. It is what it is, don't expect it to be something it is not. Live with it, or leave it alone.


And despite all the above, we might be better off in the long run for it. These guys have done an amazing job in growing the game/league so far.

I understand your point, but I still think it's possible for clubs, players, fans, media to put pressure on the MLS to end the bush league behavior. Unfortunately for me to accept the status quo is an impossibility. I'd rather say goodbye to the MLS and focus on real leagues elsewhere in the world - as much as I love the live game experience. But I think it's worth an effort to try and push for change. At the end of the day it's going to be tough for the MLS to deny the wishes of everybody. We just have to let them know that we're serious. Not sure if people are committed enough to the league and the game itself to fight for it.

Richard
08-06-2013, 12:02 PM
If the league is swimming in money then its time to take the training wheels off. How can they continue to operate this way with another 4 more teams, at some point the league is going to have to change. Honestly, I wouldn't mind the top 10 money maker teams split to make a real league.

Leafs 92/93
08-06-2013, 12:41 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't mind the top 10 money maker teams split to make a real league.

MLS Premiership? hahah, the intent is admirable but the multi-million dollar tv rights trumph card may be missing!

Super
08-06-2013, 12:48 PM
No need to tear down the entire building. We just need to be careful not to create resentment between teams when favoritism comes into play by the league. I think any reasonable person can only agree that one team in the league should not get a leg up over others. That's a fairness issue. Don Garber has done a number of wonderful things for this league, and I still think he's the right guy to take the league into the future. However, he's not Ceasar, and he shouldn't be able to cheat to give certain teams benefits that others don't get. That could spell the end of this league.

trane
08-06-2013, 01:14 PM
Fuck Dempsey, that yankee cunt, I am glad he is not here, I will look forward being able to express my views of him in person. Fucking hate the wanker.

Dreadlocks
08-06-2013, 01:21 PM
Fuck Dempsey, that yankee cunt, I am glad he is not here, I will look forward being able to express my views of him in person. Fucking hate the wanker.

ok, now tell us how you really feel, trane! :D

btw - we share the same sentiment

brad
08-06-2013, 01:42 PM
It is a real league in many ways, and it isn't in others (especially in it's legal set-up). Many leagues revenue-share things like TV revenues, it's just that in MLS the sharing is much higher plus the single-entity legal structure means that the FO is much more powerful than in anything you'd see elsewhere. The world-wide trend is towards more league control, limits on salaries, and revenue-sharing, but no-one is as extreme in that regards as MLS is.

More control over things like finances is good, but we are talking about different level of control - spending caps, roster restrictions, that sort of thing. Handing out mystery money under the table and dictating where players sign is on a whole other level. Nothing like that exists in any other legitimate football league around the world (as far as I know). That said, we are a totally different market, so the expectation that we behave the same as everyone else is a bit naive IMHO.


In other sports, nobody would say that the NFL isn't a "real league" but it has an interfering FO as well, and was the model in many ways for MLS.

Fair point, but apples to oranges IMHO. There is no other benchmark to compare it to. It;s the only game in town for top level American football. We have to compare what we are doing to other leagues that are equivalent or better, since we are playing in the same pond (or at least attempting to).

brad
08-06-2013, 01:53 PM
I understand your point, but I still think it's possible for clubs, players, fans, media to put pressure on the MLS to end the bush league behavior.

Fans/Supporters for sure, agree 100%. Clubs, I'm not so sure they want it to change. This is single-entity, and most of the clubs are owned by business wanting to turn a profit off their ventures, not benevolent football loving billionaires with deep pockets. Say what you will about the Don, he has been very adept at growing the league (and the $$$). If I owned a team, I'd be pretty happy with his track record, and I'd be pretty happy to let him continue what he is doing as it likely means more $$$ in my pocket. Remember, his goal is to be a top league by 2020, and that takes money, lots of it. That means big TV deals. IMHO he is manipulating things to position teams in key markets to further increase the likelihood of big money TV deals, which would make anyone with a financial interest in a team very happy.


Unfortunately for me to accept the status quo is an impossibility. I'd rather say goodbye to the MLS and focus on real leagues elsewhere in the world - as much as I love the live game experience. But I think it's worth an effort to try and push for change. At the end of the day it's going to be tough for the MLS to deny the wishes of everybody. We just have to let them know that we're serious. Not sure if people are committed enough to the league and the game itself to fight for it.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. You can accept what we really are today, and still push for change to make it what you'd rather have it be tomorrow. Pretending that it is something it is not is only going to lead to frustration.

ryan
08-06-2013, 01:59 PM
Apparently the league has a war chest to spend on transfer fees for star players, and Dempsey falls in this category. So if TFC does attract attention of a star player, theoretically TFC can have access to this war chest too.


Not bloody likely. This is Americuh League

trane
08-06-2013, 02:01 PM
I just read a CBC article stating that Dempsey is undoubtedly the best American player. Really??? I would take Bradley over him in a heart beat.

Super
08-06-2013, 02:05 PM
Fans/Supporters for sure, agree 100%. Clubs, I'm not so sure they want it to change. This is single-entity, and most of the clubs are owned by business wanting to turn a profit off their ventures, not benevolent football loving billionaires with deep pockets. Say what you will about the Don, he has been very adept at growing the league (and the $$$). If I owned a team, I'd be pretty happy with his track record, and I'd be pretty happy to let him continue what he is doing as it likely means more $$$ in my pocket. Remember, his goal is to be a top league by 2020, and that takes money, lots of it. That means big TV deals. IMHO he is manipulating things to position teams in key markets to further increase the likelihood of big money TV deals, which would make anyone with a financial interest in a team very happy.



I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. You can accept what we really are today, and still push for change to make it what you'd rather have it be tomorrow. Pretending that it is something it is not is only going to lead to frustration.

You make some excellent points. I do understand the motivations behind everything Garber does. Like you say, he's got an extremely ambitious goal to become a top league by 2020, and it likely won't happen without engineering the league in one direction or another. The problem is in the credibility of the league. He needs to move ahead very, very carefully. It's a business, yes, but without the fans the business will die. Can't be seen as a Mickey Mouse league. So we need a BIG change coming from the management of the MLS, or we'll NEVER be a top league in the world. Will be interesting to see what comes of all of this. No way he can continue to give a leg up to certain teams and not get criticized for it. If he then continues to do it you'll see REAL anger across the board.

Super
08-06-2013, 02:08 PM
I just read a CBC article stating that Dempsey is undoubtedly the best American player. Really??? I would take Bradley over him in a heart beat.

Not me. I mean, yes, Bradley is a fantastic player, but Dempsey has a slightly better resume. Also, Dempsey is way more famous internationally. Talk to any European football fan, and they're likely to know Dempsey. So for him to come here, and for the contract to be this big, it does impress upon people that the MLS is serious business now.

trane
08-06-2013, 03:43 PM
^ Being famous is not as important as being good, and Dempsey is known, but hardly famous, not in Europe anyway. Dempsey's resume is only better if you think playing for lower half EPL teams, for most of your career, instead of Seria A is better. Bradley has become a world class, box to box midfielder, Dempsey is a solid am/ss/CM, the fact that he may be one of the best Americans, does not mean a hell of a lot.

CretanBull
08-06-2013, 06:09 PM
Dempsey was a great player on an average team, but part of what made him great is that he was his teams best option - all of the plays ran through him. When he went to Spurs and had to compete for playing time and wasn't the 1st option when he was playing he really failed to impress (he got a lot of his starts as a result of injuries, not by earning them). I think that he'll be an excellent MLS player (one of the best) but isn't a game-changer in terms of impact on the North American sports landscape...it'll be like having another Landon Donovan in the league, not like having another Beckham in the league.

tfc2008
08-06-2013, 07:00 PM
Fuck Dempsey, that yankee cunt, I am glad he is not here, I will look forward being able to express my views of him in person. Fucking hate the wanker.

Saturday he is here

brad
08-06-2013, 07:05 PM
^ Being famous is not as important as being good, and Dempsey is known, but hardly famous, not in Europe anyway. Dempsey's resume is only better if you think playing for lower half EPL teams, for most of your career, instead of Seria A is better. Bradley has become a world class, box to box midfielder, Dempsey is a solid am/ss/CM, the fact that he may be one of the best Americans, does not mean a hell of a lot.

His performances in the Europa League run to te final did a lot for his reputation. Particulairly putting Juve to the sword.

Cashcleaner
08-07-2013, 12:43 AM
Decent piece by Rycroft on the CBC site today.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/opinion/2013/08/clint-dempsey-move-exposes-grey-area-in-mls-rules.html

Good article by Rycroft. Especially the points he brings up concerning the Mellberg non-deal:

Depending on who you believe - and at this point most believe Toronto's version of the events - TFC had offered respected Swedish international Olof Mellberg a designated player deal that would pay him in the seven figure range.

According to a number of people - past and present - in Toronto, MLS stepped in and nixed the deal.

MLS commissioner Don Garber even famously went on ESPN during the MLS All-Star game to flat out deny the league had killed the deal.

"Let's put Mellberg aside, the league hasn't nixed that. Toronto has decided that it economically didn't make sense. And at the end of the day, it was a decision that they felt was in their best interest," Garber told the television audience.


This league will not be respectable until it rids itself of these bush league salary cap rules, and ceases to interfere with the operations of each individual club. No favoritism. No telling clubs who they can and can't sign. No gifting clubs with millions of dollars while others get nothing. Enough already. It's quite frankly embarrassing. I mean, aren't we supposed to be a real league? What the hell is going on.

Whatever. I'll continue to go to games because it's a fun day out. But unfortunately I can't see it as a serious league. Might as well change up the rules on the pitch too. Get rid of draws and do penalties instead. Count the clock backwards. Do kick-in instead of throw-in. They changed these rules to be more respectable on the international stage. But that's all for nothing now. I'm sorry, but it's just impossible for me to get invested in a league where there is so much backroom dealing going on. It's cheating. Then what's the point?

I'm okay with a cap, but certainly not the one we have currently. It's got a ridiculous ceiling to begin with and all sorts of crazy restrictions and limitations. But yeah, the real issue at here is that we have a scenario where clubs apparently have no total autonomy over who they can acquire talent-wise. And like you said, if a club and it's executives and managers do not have total control on their rosters - and ultimately their teams as a whole - then what's the point?

Super
08-07-2013, 10:18 AM
I'm okay with a cap, but certainly not the one we have currently. It's got a ridiculous ceiling to begin with and all sorts of crazy restrictions and limitations. But yeah, the real issue at here is that we have a scenario where clubs apparently have no total autonomy over who they can acquire talent-wise. And like you said, if a club and it's executives and managers do not have total control on their rosters - and ultimately their teams as a whole - then what's the point?

I'm also okay with a cap in principle, but unfortunately we now see the consequences of it. You'll have a guy like Dempsey make more money than the entire Seattle squad combined - and that's including their other DP, Martins. How does that make sense? Imagine spending $1 million on 8 guys instead. Seattle would immediately become a big team in international terms - and would certainly be a LOT more fun to watch. In other words: the product becomes greatly improved. It's not stars that's going to sell soccer to Americans. It's a high level of play. You can easily keep American players employed by putting down a rule that says: you need x-amount of American/Canadian born players on each team. Getting rid of the salary cap would result in better pay for everybody. Also, we'd get a better crop of foreigners than the ones we have now.

There is ZERO good reason to keep the salary cap in place. Not one good reason - or at least not one good reason that won't have a counter argument, and one that speaks to the quality of the game itself.

Time to grow up, MLS. Enough with the bush league rules. Time to join the international community.

And let me just add to this, that if the salary cap is in place to keep teams like Chivas and Columbus from falling way behind everyone else, then maybe, just maybe, it's time to cut them lose. The league will never grow if it's waiting on smaller markets to grow up to level with bigger team markets.

JonO
08-07-2013, 10:25 AM
With the financial difficulty that most leagues around the league are experiencing, I am happy for MLS to wait a little longer to join the community. I know it seems trite, but I really do feel we need parity for quite a bit longer before we take off the training wheels. Places that would not be able to compete financially still need the opportunity to be able to compete on the pitch. Can't build any sort of fan base otherwise. If you think attendance is dismal in some cities now - imagine if they had no chance of competing with the likes of Seattle/NY/LA.

Canary10
08-07-2013, 10:34 AM
^ Being famous is not as important as being good, and Dempsey is known, but hardly famous, not in Europe anyway. Dempsey's resume is only better if you think playing for lower half EPL teams, for most of your career, instead of Seria A is better. Bradley has become a world class, box to box midfielder, Dempsey is a solid am/ss/CM, the fact that he may be one of the best Americans, does not mean a hell of a lot.

He was the fourth leading scorer in the EPL two seasons ago. He's the seventh highest non-European scorer all-time in the EPL. He's a world class player.

He's apparently doubled his Spurs salary in this deal. That's a bit crazy.

jabbronies
08-07-2013, 10:46 AM
^ Being famous is not as important as being good, and Dempsey is known, but hardly famous, not in Europe anyway. Dempsey's resume is only better if you think playing for lower half EPL teams, for most of your career, instead of Seria A is better. Bradley has become a world class, box to box midfielder, Dempsey is a solid am/ss/CM, the fact that he may be one of the best Americans, does not mean a hell of a lot.

As we speak right now, Bradley is not as famous in the US as Dempsy.
He may be in a season or two, but as we speak Dempsy is the US golden child; Bradley may be next in line.

Neither should be discredited for their skills or achievements, but facts are facts. Up until last season, Bradley was still trying to find himself. He just came into his own with Roma...and will should continue at that pace.
Dempsey has been at the top for a few years now.

Milanista
08-07-2013, 10:51 AM
hes a good player, but nothing to be all upset about. Hes an american, let him stay there. We need to keep trying to sign young players with high upside

Super
08-07-2013, 10:52 AM
With the financial difficulty that most leagues around the league are experiencing, I am happy for MLS to wait a little longer to join the community. I know it seems trite, but I really do feel we need parity for quite a bit longer before we take off the training wheels. Places that would not be able to compete financially still need the opportunity to be able to compete on the pitch. Can't build any sort of fan base otherwise. If you think attendance is dismal in some cities now - imagine if they had no chance of competing with the likes of Seattle/NY/LA.

So how long do we hold back bigger clubs while we wait for Columbus to grow? They were averaging 14k attendance the year they won the league. Then 14k the year after. No difference AT ALL. That's the potential in that market. Maybe a little bit higher, but not much. So my question is: how long do we wait for them to become financially competitive to where we can allow other teams to live up to their potential?

That's my point here. If we're waiting for the likes of Chivas and Columbus to grow, we'll be waiting a LONG time. Also, these markets are so weak that they can't handle a year or two of not winning. They have to win all the time to go anywhere. Columbus recorded their worst attendance numbers EVER in 2011 - 12k average. Meanwhile the league and bigger markets are held back in a very serious way. It's insanity! And it's anti-football.

Imagine a 100 meter race with 10 guys, 6 of which go under 10 sec, 2 go under 12, and 2 go at about 20 seconds. For the sake of parity we strap 100 pounds to the backs of the fastest guys - and the result is a race with 10 guys running 100 meters at 20 seconds. There's a new winner almost every race. No one of them MUCH better, and no one MUCH worse. See what I mean? That's the MLS. It's madness - and everyone outside of the league can see it. We choose not to get the BEST possible football on the pitch. That's what I mean by madness!

Milanista
08-07-2013, 10:54 AM
As we speak right now, Bradley is not as famous in the US as Dempsy.
He may be in a season or two, but as we speak Dempsy is the US golden child; Bradley may be next in line.

Neither should be discredited for their skills or achievements, but facts are facts. Up until last season, Bradley was still trying to find himself.
Dempsey has been at the top for a few years now.


this could be a HUGE yr for Roma, they have so many awesome young players and can start making some noise. It will be massive for Bradley's career if roma can finish top 4? I don't think they have the team for top 3...Milan Juve Napoli and Fiorentina are too good IMO...But Roma have one of the better midfields in serie a for sure

jabbronies
08-07-2013, 10:55 AM
this could be a HUGE yr for Roma, they have so many awesome young players and can start making some noise. It will be massive for Bradley's career if roma can finish top 4? I don't think they have the team for top 3...Milan Juve Napoli and Fiorentina are too good IMO...But Roma have one of the better midfields in serie a for sure

Exactly...this year will be huge for Bradley. If he can stick at Roma and continue his rise, by this time next year Bradley will be Captain USA, no doubts.

But as it stands, right now, Dempsey is their guy.

tfcleeds
08-07-2013, 11:00 AM
Columbus has been around since the inception of MLS - if they still have problems drawing decent attendance, maybe that just means they aren't fit to host a MLS franchise. Cut 'em loose.

Oldtimer
08-07-2013, 11:48 AM
Time to grow up, MLS. Enough with the bush league rules. Time to join the international community.


I agree with your point that it's better to have 8 $1 million players, but I don't agree with dumping the cap yet. I lived through the implosion of the old NASL due to over-spending, and it was ugly. Clubs are going bust in Europe today due to the same thing, MLS is a model in it's restraint. What we should have is a larger cap rather than no cap at all.

Fort York Redcoat
08-07-2013, 12:00 PM
I agree with your point that it's better to have 8 $1 million players, but I don't agree with dumping the cap yet. I lived through the implosion of the old NASL due to over-spending, and it was ugly. Clubs are going bust in Europe today due to the same thing, MLS is a model in it's restraint. What we should have is a larger cap rather than no cap at all.

With the way we're expanding it's certainly more likely that we'll be raising cap limit vs minimum. They'll be a lot more bench roles soon enough.

Super
08-07-2013, 12:06 PM
You can still spend yourself into the grave today on DPs (Dempsey's contract is proof of that - he earns 3 times the salary cap per year), you just can't do it on your entire team. It's incredibly idiotic. Just put a rule in place that you can't spend beyond your means, and then find a way to supervise that. Problem solved. League will get much, much stronger as a result. Yes, a few teams would struggle to win - but that's no different in any league on the planet. The reason for the struggle is lack of fans and market - so you'd only kill off teams that will never, ever be able to push the league in a great direction anyway. Then move them to stronger markets.

trane
08-07-2013, 02:01 PM
Dempsey was a great player on an average team, but part of what made him great is that he was his teams best option - all of the plays ran through him. When he went to Spurs and had to compete for playing time and wasn't the 1st option when he was playing he really failed to impress (he got a lot of his starts as a result of injuries, not by earning them). I think that he'll be an excellent MLS player (one of the best) but isn't a game-changer in terms of impact on the North American sports landscape...it'll be like having another Landon Donovan in the league, not like having another Beckham in the league.

Exactly, I was going to make all these point, almost word for word, but you saved me time. Good player, not great, not world class, and not worth the money for us, FOR Seattle, maybe because of the marketing angle.


"MILANISTA"- As a Milanista I will tell you that Roma right now have more then enough tallent, and in some ways are a more complete team then Milan at this point in the season. Strootman was a player that we wanted but Berlusca did not want to pay for. Benatia is one of the best CBs in Italy, perhaps in Europe. All in all I think Roma is a more complete team at the moment.

Milanista
08-07-2013, 02:30 PM
Exactly, I was going to make all these point, almost word for word, but you saved me time. Good player, not great, not world class, and not worth the money for us, FOR Seattle, maybe because of the marketing angle.


"MILANISTA"- As a Milanista I will tell you that Roma right now have more then enough tallent, and in some ways are a more complete team then Milan at this point in the season. Strootman was a player that we wanted but Berlusca did not want to pay for. Benatia is one of the best CBs in Italy, perhaps in Europe. All in all I think Roma is a more complete team at the moment.

I don't think they are...In the end we were undefeated I believe since Balo joined and De Jong will be here 100% healthy..We have better depth this yr and we have some awesome young players...Don't be shocked if you see Honda and Ljajic join, that would easily give us some of the best young talent in Europe. I think we let Strootman go because they want Cristante to get playing time who will be better than Strootman. The kid is simply sick and only 18 and half Canadian

habstfc
08-07-2013, 04:48 PM
You can still spend yourself into the grave today on DPs (Dempsey's contract is proof of that - he earns 3 times the salary cap per year), you just can't do it on your entire team. It's incredibly idiotic. Just put a rule in place that you can't spend beyond your means, and then find a way to supervise that. Problem solved. League will get much, much stronger as a result. Yes, a few teams would struggle to win - but that's no different in any league on the planet. The reason for the struggle is lack of fans and market - so you MLS needs a cap floor as well as a cap.'d only kill off teams that will never, ever be able to push the league in a great direction anyway. Then move them to stronger markets.MLS wants to be a top league by 2020, don't see that happening without raising the cap to at least 20 million dollars. The only way for this league to attain higher level of play is to let teams spend not what they want but let them write a few big cheques. If the columbus or colorados or chivas want to exist the league must explain to them they need to spend X amount of dollars at minimum if they want to compete. If they are unwilling or unable to spend then it's a matter of time before they go out of business. MLS needs a cap floor as as well as a salary cap. The cap should be raised to about 6 million dollars, if the weaker teams cant afford it C'est la vie.

trane
08-07-2013, 05:50 PM
^ You are about the only "Milanista" that would agree, our problems are not in attack, although a trequartista would help, we need serious re-reinforcements in defense and in the mid, and not in 3-4 years now. We did not buy Strootman because Berlusca no longer has the money for it.

Why I mentioned Strootman and Benatia is that these are players (or the likes Ogbonna/Nanigolan) that we needed to get back, to were we should be. Yes Lajic may happen, but again it would happen 100% if they offered 12 Million, but they are stuck at 8, Honda will happen in January. I do not know if you read the Gazzetta but they are very current on all of Seria A and particularly Milan.

Super
08-07-2013, 06:21 PM
MLS wants to be a top league by 2020, don't see that happening without raising the cap to at least 20 million dollars. The only way for this league to attain higher level of play is to let teams spend not what they want but let them write a few big cheques. If the columbus or colorados or chivas want to exist the league must explain to them they need to spend X amount of dollars at minimum if they want to compete. If they are unwilling or unable to spend then it's a matter of time before they go out of business. MLS needs a cap floor as as well as a salary cap. The cap should be raised to about 6 million dollars, if the weaker teams cant afford it C'est la vie.

I think my main beef with the MLS is the DP rule. It made sense when Beckham came out. But now it's just stupid. Again, the fact that Seattle could get themselves 8 $1 mil players instead of Dempsey is shocking. Imagine how good that Seattle team would be? A hell of a lot better than it is today, that's for sure. Same cost. Think about that. It's hard to justify the existence of such a system. When speaking to Europeans it is usually what they are the most shocked by. It's very Mickey Mouse to them. To me, the fact that Garber and Co. would prefer bringing in "stars" instead of greatly improving the league is seriously lacking in judgement. People aren't going to watch the MLS because Dempsey is playing. Maybe the first few games. But it's the quality of play that brings the masses to the game. Smaller clubs will survive. Just like in ANY other league. And yes, if teams like Columbus and Chivas can't compete, then why are we holding back bigger clubs from getting A LOT better (thereby improving the league standard as well) - when we instead should move these teams to other markets. We don't have to FORCE a team to move. They will simply die in a league that's become too strong for them. At this point you move them to whoever is next in line to get a team - and the Chivas and Columbus' can join a smaller league better suited for them. I know they're looking at expanding the league, so plenty of possible replacements knocking on the door.

Let's stop trying to save the weak teams/markets by holding back the teams that could truly be GREAT in the international community (imagine Seattle, LA, New York, Toronto in the CCL if we had $20 mil teams - spread out on 11 players.. We'd truly be a frightening class of teams). Also, it's the big clubs that win their leagues respect. Not the average teams, or the parity of whatever. That's boring. People want the drama. The show. The big stars. The upsets when the little teams beat the big teams. ALL of this doesn't exist in the MLS. Let's get rid of the salary cap, put in place "don't spend beyond your means" rules in the league - and let's grow this league to top 5 in the world in a matter of a few years. And I promise you the world would take notice - and would finally give the MLS some respect, instead of laugh at its oddities.

Technorgasm
08-08-2013, 07:01 AM
I cant wait to tell Dempsey JUST what a complete CUNT he is. .
and that I was banging his wife back at the hotel. . . .

Redcoe15
08-08-2013, 09:57 AM
I cant wait to tell Dempsey JUST what a complete CUNT he is. .
and that I was banging his wife back at the hotel. . . .

Cunt-Dempsey-is-a-DoucheBAAAAAAAAG!!!

Cunt-Dempsey-is-a-DoucheBAAAAAAAAG!!!

ag futbol
08-08-2013, 10:23 AM
I think my main beef with the MLS is the DP rule. It made sense when Beckham came out. But now it's just stupid. Again, the fact that Seattle could get themselves 8 $1 mil players instead of Dempsey is shocking. Imagine how good that Seattle team would be? A hell of a lot better than it is today, that's for sure. Same cost. Think about that. It's hard to justify the existence of such a system. When speaking to Europeans it is usually what they are the most shocked by. It's very Mickey Mouse to them. To me, the fact that Garber and Co. would prefer bringing in "stars" instead of greatly improving the league is seriously lacking in judgement. People aren't going to watch the MLS because Dempsey is playing. Maybe the first few games. But it's the quality of play that brings the masses to the game. Smaller clubs will survive. Just like in ANY other league. And yes, if teams like Columbus and Chivas can't compete, then why are we holding back bigger clubs from getting A LOT better (thereby improving the league standard as well) - when we instead should move these teams to other markets. We don't have to FORCE a team to move. They will simply die in a league that's become too strong for them. At this point you move them to whoever is next in line to get a team - and the Chivas and Columbus' can join a smaller league better suited for them. I know they're looking at expanding the league, so plenty of possible replacements knocking on the door.

Let's stop trying to save the weak teams/markets by holding back the teams that could truly be GREAT in the international community (imagine Seattle, LA, New York, Toronto in the CCL if we had $20 mil teams - spread out on 11 players.. We'd truly be a frightening class of teams). Also, it's the big clubs that win their leagues respect. Not the average teams, or the parity of whatever. That's boring. People want the drama. The show. The big stars. The upsets when the little teams beat the big teams. ALL of this doesn't exist in the MLS. Let's get rid of the salary cap, put in place "don't spend beyond your means" rules in the league - and let's grow this league to top 5 in the world in a matter of a few years. And I promise you the world would take notice - and would finally give the MLS some respect, instead of laugh at its oddities.
Couldn't agree more, well said.

TFC07
08-08-2013, 10:34 AM
I think my main beef with the MLS is the DP rule. It made sense when Beckham came out. But now it's just stupid. Again, the fact that Seattle could get themselves 8 $1 mil players instead of Dempsey is shocking. Imagine how good that Seattle team would be? A hell of a lot better than it is today, that's for sure. Same cost. Think about that. It's hard to justify the existence of such a system. When speaking to Europeans it is usually what they are the most shocked by. It's very Mickey Mouse to them. To me, the fact that Garber and Co. would prefer bringing in "stars" instead of greatly improving the league is seriously lacking in judgement. People aren't going to watch the MLS because Dempsey is playing. Maybe the first few games. But it's the quality of play that brings the masses to the game. Smaller clubs will survive. Just like in ANY other league. And yes, if teams like Columbus and Chivas can't compete, then why are we holding back bigger clubs from getting A LOT better (thereby improving the league standard as well) - when we instead should move these teams to other markets. We don't have to FORCE a team to move. They will simply die in a league that's become too strong for them. At this point you move them to whoever is next in line to get a team - and the Chivas and Columbus' can join a smaller league better suited for them. I know they're looking at expanding the league, so plenty of possible replacements knocking on the door.

Let's stop trying to save the weak teams/markets by holding back the teams that could truly be GREAT in the international community (imagine Seattle, LA, New York, Toronto in the CCL if we had $20 mil teams - spread out on 11 players.. We'd truly be a frightening class of teams). Also, it's the big clubs that win their leagues respect. Not the average teams, or the parity of whatever. That's boring. People want the drama. The show. The big stars. The upsets when the little teams beat the big teams. ALL of this doesn't exist in the MLS. Let's get rid of the salary cap, put in place "don't spend beyond your means" rules in the league - and let's grow this league to top 5 in the world in a matter of a few years. And I promise you the world would take notice - and would finally give the MLS some respect, instead of laugh at its oddities.

Agree what you're saying, but all NA pro sport leagues are run like this (well MLS bit more strict). The last thing soccer fans want is MLS turning into NBA where we got 3-4 super teams while rest is filled with mediocre or crap teams. NBA is surviving because tv money and merchandise unlike MLS where they have to rely on ticket sales for their revenue. (We saw what happened to original NASL where spending got out of control and support decline with super teams?) Since support for pro soccer league is fragile, MLS FO are being conservative and taking more slow approach to grow the league in our market.