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View Full Version : If Winter & BDK had stayed and Mariner was sacked...



backbeat
07-18-2013, 08:21 AM
i know it's hypothetical but it would be interesting to see where TFC would be today if instead of sacking Winter, Mariner was let go - Winter & BDK would have a much better understanding of the league and the football was interesting to watch even through frustrating losses.....I don't know, i'm just so spent this morning after last night and this endless talk of additions and boring play...

oh well, bring on the Red Bulls....

flamehawk
07-18-2013, 08:31 AM
I didn't support his sacking during the 9 game dip .. and I still wonder if it's the right choice today. :/

Couchy81
07-18-2013, 08:35 AM
Of course it was the wrong choice, have we ever made a right choice? It was painfully obvious we were progressing near the end of the losing streak and as soon as Mariner took over we were in a good place and he shat all over it.

TFC_Allez
07-18-2013, 08:45 AM
I disagreed with Winter's firing then, and I will continue to disagree with it till the end. It was the most short sighted, impulse reaction I've ever seen. The issue with Winter wasn't his philosophy, it was his understanding of the league. That's something that would've come with time. And time, I'm sure, is all he needed. I can guarantee the cries for Nelsen to be fired will start coming in soon, if they haven't started already.

TOBOR !
07-18-2013, 08:49 AM
In this alternate universe I still have my season tickets, BMO fills up regularly, and we're singing songs that don't always go "allez-allez-allez" (or whatevs).

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aOwTPlkDAmM/T5a3YlkQFQI/AAAAAAAAQlQ/WTaYH4Z8X7o/s1600/What-If-v1-11_00fc.jpg

ryan
07-18-2013, 08:54 AM
I disagreed with Winter's firing then, and I will continue to disagree with it till the end. It was the most short sighted, impulse reaction I've ever seen. The issue with Winter wasn't his philosophy, it was his understanding of the league. That's something that would've come with time. And time, I'm sure, is all he needed. I can guarantee the cries for Nelsen to be fired will start coming in soon, if they haven't started already.

I agree with all of this.

Probably wouldn't have bothered me as much (the sacking of Winter), if we didn't go from him to clown shorts. Going from a man who was trying to turn us into a professional club, with a philosophy, total class and a style of football Canadian players badly need to be playing.....to a god damn drunk who just wanted to hoof it up and see what happens.

Winter is the only TFC manager who's ever earned my respect.

TFC07
07-18-2013, 08:56 AM
I think soccer will be at least more enjoyable to watch, but not sure if it will win championships in the end though. I am personally fan of what Winter was trying to accomplish on the field and off the field, but it would have taking a long time to see his vision of building this club come through. I am sure fanbase here don't care about style of play since they're willing to support guys like Mariner (just look last year thread on this forum when Mariner first took over to see what I am talking about) as long they win games to make it the playoffs (even winning CCL doesn't mean anything for most of the fanbase here).

Super
07-18-2013, 09:07 AM
In general I'm against hiring a head coach with zero head coaching experience - but that's just how we do things here at TFC. So we have to see these rookies through their beginner mistakes. Problem is we fire them before they get experienced. If you're going to hire rookie head coaches then at the very least allow them more time to figure things out. OR hire experience. But again, I know that's not what we do here.

spe18
07-18-2013, 09:16 AM
I agree with all of this.

Probably wouldn't have bothered me as much (the sacking of Winter), if we didn't go from him to clown shorts. Going from a man who was trying to turn us into a professional club, with a philosophy, total class and a style of football Canadian players badly need to be playing.....to a god damn drunk who just wanted to hoof it up and see what happens.

Winter is the only TFC manager who's ever earned my respect.

Ya, but from what I recall, Winter had lost the locker room, which made replacing him all but a necessity.

PopePouri
07-18-2013, 09:18 AM
I supported the firing when you go through a full year with 3 transfer windows and starting 0-9 the next year. Mariner should have gone too.

TOBOR !
07-18-2013, 09:20 AM
Ya, but from what I recall, Winter had lost the locker room, which made replacing him all but a necessity.

which is when the Silva, Soolsma and Aceval (?) got into a punchup in Houston.

The players didn't want to behave like professionals is all.

How many of them are still here ?

Oldtimer
07-18-2013, 09:30 AM
What a fickle bunch we have here. People were screaming for Winter to be gone, showing photoshopped pictures of him picking his nose in front of disasters and now people are regretting what they asked for?

Tom Anselmi's greatest failing is that he listened to the fans too much. We got JDG. We got a mix of incompatible different types of football, all pandering to different groups in the ALL FOR ONE contingent.

Sheesh. I hope Payne stays the course and ignores all of the board chatter.

Canary10
07-18-2013, 09:31 AM
which is when the Silva, Soolsma and Aceval (?) got into a punchup in Houston.

The players didn't want to behave like professionals is all.

How many of them are still here ?

That actually happened after he was fired. Think it was a result of one of Mariner's pub team building sessions.

Canary10
07-18-2013, 09:32 AM
What a fickle bunch we have here. People were screaming for Winter to be gone, showing photoshopped pictures of him picking his nose in front of disasters and now people are regretting what they asked for?

Tom Anselmi's greatest failing is that he listened to the fans too much. We got JDG. We got a mix of incompatible different types of football, all pandering to different groups in the ALL FOR ONE contingent.

Sheesh. I hope Payne stays the course and ignores all of the board chatter.

Yeah, knee-jerk decision making is the biggest failing of this team.

Beach_Red
07-18-2013, 09:36 AM
What a fickle bunch we have here. People were screaming for Winter to be gone, showing photoshopped pictures of him picking his nose in front of disasters and now people are regretting what they asked for?

Tom Anselmi's greatest failing is that he listened to the fans too much. We got JDG. We got a mix of incompatible different types of football, all pandering to different groups in the ALL FOR ONE contingent.

Sheesh. I hope Payne stays the course and ignores all of the board chatter.

Yes, it's true. Anselmi was able to go for years talking about all kinds of plans and never dealing with the fact that TFC had to beat the other MLS teams. There must have been laughter in the boardroom when they realized they could actually sell the idea of, "transforming the sport in Canada."

I hope you're right that Payne stays the course and for the first time in our history we try to build a team that can compete in MLS.

Damien
07-18-2013, 09:37 AM
What a fickle bunch we have here. People were screaming for Winter to be gone, showing photoshopped pictures of him picking his nose in front of disasters and now people are regretting what they asked for?

Tom Anselmi's greatest failing is that he listened to the fans too much. We got JDG. We got a mix of incompatible different types of football, all pandering to different groups in the ALL FOR ONE contingent.

Sheesh. I hope Payne stays the course and ignores all of the board chatter.


Agree.

However, I think it's the media who listen to fans who then write stories calling for heads to roll.
Toronto media are a bunch of pidgeons.

TOBOR !
07-18-2013, 09:37 AM
That actually happened after he was fired. Think it was a result of one of Mariner's pub team building sessions.

That's what I mean. The players resented being told to wear ties and meet curfews, etc. They didn't want to behave like professionals.

As soon as Winter was fired, who's-yer-new-best-friend let's them off-leash and look what happened.

And I bet it was only the North American lads that resented Winter.

Canary10
07-18-2013, 09:42 AM
That's what I mean. The players resented being told to wear ties and meet curfews, etc. They didn't want to behave like professionals.

As soon as Winter was fired, who's-yer-new-best-friend let's them off-leash and look what happened.

And I bet it was only the North American lads that resented Winter.

Ahh, I see. Yeah, the horror of having to represent TFC with pride. The poor lads were subjected to totalitarianism.

TFC07
07-18-2013, 09:44 AM
That's what I mean. The players resented being told to wear ties and meet curfews, etc. They didn't want to behave like professionals.

As soon as Winter was fired, who's-yer-new-best-friend let's them off-leash and look what happened.

And I bet it was only the North American lads that resented Winter.

Canadian players benefit from Winter era the most. So I have a hard time believing they resented Winter unlike American players like Alan Gordon

OgtheDim
07-18-2013, 09:45 AM
This discussion is less then useful.

Stouffville_RPB
07-18-2013, 09:46 AM
i know it's hypothetical but it would be interesting to see where TFC would be today if instead of sacking Winter, Mariner was let go - Winter & BDK would have a much better understanding of the league and the football was interesting to watch even through frustrating losses.....I don't know, i'm just so spent this morning after last night and this endless talk of additions and boring play...

oh well, bring on the Red Bulls....


I didn't support his sacking during the 9 game dip .. and I still wonder if it's the right choice today. :/


I agree with all of this.

Probably wouldn't have bothered me as much (the sacking of Winter), if we didn't go from him to clown shorts. Going from a man who was trying to turn us into a professional club, with a philosophy, total class and a style of football Canadian players badly need to be playing.....to a god damn drunk who just wanted to hoof it up and see what happens.

Winter is the only TFC manager who's ever earned my respect.

Agree with all of you guys. I'm very vocal that it was the wrong move, then and now.

Even if you were going to let Winter and BDK go why replace them with someone who is the total opposite of their philosophy? Why not bring someone in who could continue to build from the foundation that they laid both with the senior roster and the academy?

The way that FO handled Winter/BDK and the subsequent hirings proved to me that FO was never really on board with the philosophy that they were selling to us. FO didn't actually care about building through the academy and in the "total football" system, it was just a new marketing strategy.

They had the right people in place to get the club running to produce serviceable players on a consistent basis and they tossed them out to go back to the same crap they had in the first 4 years of existence.

It was this, more than any other moment in their history, that disappointed me and is the single biggest reason why I care less and less about the team everyday.

TOBOR !
07-18-2013, 09:49 AM
Canadian players benefit from Winter era the most. So I have a hard time believing they resented Winter unlike American players like Alan Gordon

Wasn't JDG one of his biggest critics ?

ryan
07-18-2013, 09:49 AM
What a fickle bunch we have here. People were screaming for Winter to be gone, showing photoshopped pictures of him picking his nose in front of disasters and now people are regretting what they asked for?

Tom Anselmi's greatest failing is that he listened to the fans too much. We got JDG. We got a mix of incompatible different types of football, all pandering to different groups in the ALL FOR ONE contingent.

Sheesh. I hope Payne stays the course and ignores all of the board chatter.

I don't think those responding ever asked for him to be gone. We're the same ones who were pissed when it happened.

ryan
07-18-2013, 09:50 AM
This discussion is less then useful.

#Thingsyoudowhenyouloseto10manChivas

TFC07
07-18-2013, 09:51 AM
Agree with all of you guys. I'm very vocal that it was the wrong move, then and now.

Even if you were going to let Winter and BDK go why replace them with someone who is the total opposite of their philosophy? Why not bring someone in who could continue to build from the foundation that they laid both with the senior roster and the academy?

The way that FO handled Winter/BDK and the subsequent hirings proved to me that FO was never really on board with the philosophy that they were selling to us. FO didn't actually care about building through the academy and in the "total football" system, it was just a new marketing strategy.

They had the right people in place to get the club running to produce serviceable players on a consistent basis and they tossed them out to go back to the same crap they had in the first 4 years of existence.

It was this, more than any other moment in their history, that disappointed me and is the single biggest reason why I care less and less about the team everyday.

Well said.

Since Winter has left, I lost a lot of my passion and fire for this team. Now I just go to games to enjoy nice weather and drinks with friends. Hopefully we get back to attacking soccer instead of this defensive soccer crap that Nelsen got us playing.

Beach_Red
07-18-2013, 09:51 AM
That's what I mean. The players resented being told to wear ties and meet curfews, etc. They didn't want to behave like professionals.

As soon as Winter was fired, who's-yer-new-best-friend let's them off-leash and look what happened.

And I bet it was only the North American lads that resented Winter.

That's an interesting assumption. If it's true it's tough to see a future for soccer in North America. In every other sport America can produce the best athletes in the world - and they often wear ties and meet curfews. And yet North American soccer players can't seem to do it.

MLS was a risky investment for the people who put up the money and it's yet to be seen if it will actually work.

brad
07-18-2013, 09:53 AM
I wasn't against Winter being fired. He didn't do the business and deserved to go. I was against completely blowing up the whole thing instead of staying the course with another coach continuing to implement the philosophy.

The question in my mind with Winter & DeKlerk though is where would they have taken us had they been allowed to actually operate without all the meddling that was going on at the time?

PopePouri
07-18-2013, 09:57 AM
I wouldn't have minded De Klerk taking over. Loved that guy's passion.

ryan
07-18-2013, 09:57 AM
I wasn't against Winter being fired. He didn't do the business and deserved to go. I was against completely blowing up the whole thing instead of staying the course with another coach continuing to implement the philosophy.

The question in my mind with Winter & DeKlerk though is where would they have taken us had they been allowed to actually operate without all the meddling that was going on at the time?

Whether people want to care about the CCL or not, they (Winter/BDK) accomplished something in that tournament. I would argue reaching the CCL semifinals and giving Santos a go is more impressive than qualifying for the MLS playoffs.

I don't know what they could have ever done, could have been a trophy, could have been nothing more. Cannot deny that something DID actually happen. Cannot deny one of the best, if not the best moment as a TFC fan (QF vs LA), happened thanks to those men.

Oldtimer
07-18-2013, 10:04 AM
Whether people want to care about the CCL or not, they (Winter/BDK) accomplished something in that tournament. I would argue reaching the CCL semifinals and giving Santos a go is more impressive than qualifying for the MLS playoffs.

I don't know what they could have ever done, could have been a trophy, could have been nothing more. Cannot deny that something DID actually happen. Cannot deny one of the best, if not the best moment as a TFC fan (QF vs LA), happened thanks to those men.

The away win in Dallas was one of my all-time highlights for this team (there haven't been many).

ManUtd4ever
07-18-2013, 10:12 AM
Neither Mariner or Winter deserved to keep their jobs. Winter's track record in league play was even worse than Nelsen's, and many of those losses were complete blowouts. How soon we forget...

ryan
07-18-2013, 10:13 AM
The away win in Dallas was one of my all-time highlights for this team (there haven't been many).

Absolutely that whole experience is unforgettable, even if you are no longer a fan now that was just one hell of a run.

An elimination game, on the road, to a side we weren't doing well against.....everyone and their black cat was thinking, "im gonna be hopeful, but in the back of my mind we're as dead as a Stark"

Then we paste their asses 3-0 like we're the boss? WE FUCKING RE-DEFINED WHO WE ARE. Right then and there. We said in our performance, that we aren't pushovers, we win big games on the road. Then we showed those cunts from LA, in full strength, that we aren't afraid of you and put 2 nice goals past them before Beckham's hair style got messy. Then we faced adversity because they put 2 past us and got edge, so we went INTO THEIR FUCKING HOUSE AND DID IT AGAIN.

That moment, we changed what Toronto FC was. We no longer were a punching bag.


Then we got unlucky on the 9 game run, outside of about 2 of the 9, I thought we competed despite the results (unlike today where we are just shit). We then went to clown shorts and redefined ourselves once more, "we are who we used to be". And there we remain.

Oldtimer
07-18-2013, 10:23 AM
^ That's the thing, we started to feel some pride during that run. Then came the 9-run loss and the "3 year plan" went down the drain. What we now know is that Mr. Shorty-Pants was undermining Winter with Anselmi, and had scuttled negotiations with some players to set up Winter to fail.

Who knows what would have happened if the course had been stayed? Could Winter have turned things around? We don't know. However, the right thing now is to stay the course.

brad
07-18-2013, 10:34 AM
Whether people want to care about the CCL or not, they (Winter/BDK) accomplished something in that tournament. I would argue reaching the CCL semifinals and giving Santos a go is more impressive than qualifying for the MLS playoffs.

I don't know what they could have ever done, could have been a trophy, could have been nothing more. Cannot deny that something DID actually happen. Cannot deny one of the best, if not the best moment as a TFC fan (QF vs LA), happened thanks to those men.

I give him a lot of credit for the CCL. But to me that does not offset being beyond dreadful in your domestic league.

backbeat
07-18-2013, 10:49 AM
^ That's the thing, we started to feel some pride during that run. Then came the 9-run loss and the "3 year plan" went down the drain. What we now know is that Mr. Shorty-Pants was undermining Winter with Anselmi, and had scuttled negotiations with some players to set up Winter to fail.

Who knows what would have happened if the course had been stayed? Could Winter have turned things around? We don't know. However, the right thing now is to stay the course.


to be clear I'm in no way thinking we should turf Nelsen or Payne - just a feeling of being totally flat after last night and remembering how angry i was when Winter was let go - I phoned the FO and vented vehemently - anyway we'll see if signings pick me/it up or not but last night was a dreadful experience - and i know there's little point wondering what if....but anyway - i don't think i'll be F5ing much today.

ag futbol
07-18-2013, 11:02 AM
The Dutch contingent can't be totally absolved due to Mariner's incompetence. They were really struggling to understand the league and to adapt in a way PM can't fully be responsible for.

I fully agree with them being fired. It was year two, they had time to bring in the players they wanted, we should have been well above that level of futility. The disappointment is that the club didn't continue on with the same vision. That would have reduced the amount of player turnover needed and would have built on the few things that were actually done properly.

JuliquE
07-18-2013, 11:17 AM
I agree with all of this.

Probably wouldn't have bothered me as much (the sacking of Winter), if we didn't go from him to clown shorts. Going from a man who was trying to turn us into a professional club, with a philosophy, total class and a style of football Canadian players badly need to be playing.....to a god damn drunk who just wanted to hoof it up and see what happens.

Winter is the only TFC manager who's ever earned my respect.
This is everything I want to say. Also: I lol'd.

TFC_Allez
07-18-2013, 11:36 AM
Absolutely that whole experience is unforgettable, even if you are no longer a fan now that was just one hell of a run.

An elimination game, on the road, to a side we weren't doing well against.....everyone and their black cat was thinking, "im gonna be hopeful, but in the back of my mind we're as dead as a Stark"

Then we paste their asses 3-0 like we're the boss? WE FUCKING RE-DEFINED WHO WE ARE. Right then and there. We said in our performance, that we aren't pushovers, we win big games on the road. Then we showed those cunts from LA, in full strength, that we aren't afraid of you and put 2 nice goals past them before Beckham's hair style got messy. Then we faced adversity because they put 2 past us and got edge, so we went INTO THEIR FUCKING HOUSE AND DID IT AGAIN.

That moment, we changed what Toronto FC was. We no longer were a punching bag.


Then we got unlucky on the 9 game run, outside of about 2 of the 9, I thought we competed despite the results (unlike today where we are just shit). We then went to clown shorts and redefined ourselves once more, "we are who we used to be". And there we remain.

This is my feelings exactly.

The Dutch experiment was off to a slow start, Javier Martina was a bust besides that brace against Portland. Once they got rolling, Soolsma was excellent with his little toe drag on the wings, and Danny K burying goals left and right.

There was some promise. The 0-9 start to the 2012 season was disheartening to any and all fans of this team and completely derailed things. The reason, I believe, why Winter and Co didnt make more moves to bring in players sooner is because he was waiting for the summer transfer window to open. Winter loved his European players, and I feel like he was waiting for summer before making a splash. He may not have had a DP spot open at the time, but to think he was absolutely clueless about who to bring in wouldn't make sense. He was a very calculated person and understood the game. I think he had a plan...nevermind, I KNOW he had a plan. Things got out of control early on in the season, and he fell on his sword.

I think if he was given until that summer...things would've improved greatly. No one can speculate on who his potential targets would've been, but I'm sure there were more than a few.

Beach_Red
07-18-2013, 11:39 AM
Just curious, has any other MLS team tried this kind of 'big philosophy' approach?

JuliquE
07-18-2013, 11:48 AM
Ya, but from what I recall, Winter had lost the locker room, which made replacing him all but a necessity.
Not sure this is accurate; you're always going to have one or two players that maybe aren't getting time and are a little unsettled.. but, I don't think he lost the dressing-room. If he did, then even more praise is due his way for picking things up, after one or two sit-downs with all the players being permitted to speak freely on what they felt the problem was.. as they went on to win the next two or three games, in all competitions, following a rough-patch. He was a very humble and principled guy -- firm when he needed to be.

I don't think there's any questioning that he cared and continues to care most for this club than any coach we've had and you could always see how filled with glee and proud he was to be at the helm, seeming, now, to always be keeping an eye on us and staying connected; I have to believe that we could have benefited more than we did from all his passion, certainly if Mariner was not Mariner. As I've mentioned elsewhere, he might have at some point hit a ceiling and not be the one to take us forward, from there.. but, if that is true, it was certainly not when we let him go.

I agree with Oldtimer on staying the course, but it's just depressing to think on what could have been.

JuliquE
07-18-2013, 11:52 AM
This is my feelings exactly.

The Dutch experiment was off to a slow start, Javier Martina was a bust besides that brace against Portland. Once they got rolling, Soolsma was excellent with his little toe drag on the wings, and Danny K burying goals left and right.

There was some promise. The 0-9 start to the 2012 season was disheartening to any and all fans of this team and completely derailed things. The reason, I believe, why Winter and Co didnt make more moves to bring in players sooner is because he was waiting for the summer transfer window to open. Winter loved his European players, and I feel like he was waiting for summer before making a splash. He may not have had a DP spot open at the time, but to think he was absolutely clueless about who to bring in wouldn't make sense. He was a very calculated person and understood the game. I think he had a plan...nevermind, I KNOW he had a plan. Things got out of control early on in the season, and he fell on his sword.

I think if he was given until that summer...things would've improved greatly. No one can speculate on who his potential targets would've been, but I'm sure there were more than a few.
It's starts to sound like excuses, but we lost, arguably, our best player to injury, in our captain. I remember that players -- not just the opposition keepers -- were saving our shots on goal with the backs of their necks and knees -- it was insane how unlucky we were. Through it all, I really never felt like we couldn't score a goal, the way I am shocked if we do, now.

*sigh*

jloome
07-18-2013, 11:58 AM
Just curious, has any other MLS team tried this kind of 'big philosophy' approach?

Well they're labelling Caleb Porter's 433 "Porterball" but he's publicly come out to say 'no, it's just discipline' already to put a kibosh on all that nonsense.

Jeff s
07-18-2013, 01:11 PM
Neither Mariner or Winter deserved to keep their jobs. Winter's track record in league play was even worse than Nelsen's, and many of those losses were complete blowouts. How soon we forget...

agree.

Winter was to stubborn with the 4-3-3 formation. If it isn't working, than do something else.

Mariner... was just garbage.

Would be nice to get an experienced manager for once..... just once...

Abou Sky
07-18-2013, 01:19 PM
For a time I wanted Winter gone, I figured it couldn't be worse... how wrong I was...

I have been told that Winter had 'locker room problems'

I think he also likely didn't have the ability to do as he liked with staff.

If both of those things continued, it wouldn't have mattered if he stayed or left.

If however, he had the ability to do as he liked and had free reign of the club, I think we would be in a much better position right now. Maybe we would have some players here on loan from Ajax and I can only believe that he would have eventually gotten the pieces right and put together a squad to do what he wanted to do and had, at the very least, some exciting football for us.

v00d00daddy
07-18-2013, 02:00 PM
For a time I wanted Winter gone, I figured it couldn't be worse... how wrong I was...

I have been told that Winter had 'locker room problems'

I think he also likely didn't have the ability to do as he liked with staff.

If both of those things continued, it wouldn't have mattered if he stayed or left.

If however, he had the ability to do as he liked and had free reign of the club, I think we would be in a much better position right now. Maybe we would have some players here on loan from Ajax and I can only believe that he would have eventually gotten the pieces right and put together a squad to do what he wanted to do and had, at the very least, some exciting football for us.


Pure speculation on my part but if I had to guess on the locker room problems I'd say that it was likely the Mariner sympathizers on the roster. The guys that didn't like the style of play that Winter wanted to play and they had a shoulder to cry on in Mariner. I'd also guess that they didn't want to play that way because they couldn't.

I'm really trying to let go of the whole implementation, and subsequent dismantling of the new philosophy that came with the Dutch regime. It's what I wanted for TFC and the CMNT from day one and we had it, and it was snatched away in favour of a terrible coach/gm with an archaic view of football.

Now we have some hybrid of I don't know what yet. Half a season in and I don't know what we will represent. What style of play we wanna have. All I know is that we have a VERY experience MLS guy at the helm and that's comforting. What isn't comforting is that the same very experienced guy has chosen a player to play the part of coach.

Many complained about how inexperienced Winter was as a coach. Well we now have someone that is WAY less experienced than Winter was. But it's okay because Payne picked him? God I hope he's right.

jabbronies
07-18-2013, 02:14 PM
Pure speculation on my part but if I had to guess on the locker room problems I'd say that it was likely the Mariner sympathizers on the roster. The guys that didn't like the style of play that Winter wanted to play and they had a shoulder to cry on in Mariner. I'd also guess that they didn't want to play that way because they couldn't.

I'm really trying to let go of the whole implementation, and subsequent dismantling of the new philosophy that came with the Dutch regime. It's what I wanted for TFC and the CMNT from day one and we had it, and it was snatched away in favour of a terrible coach/gm with an archaic view of football.

Now we have some hybrid of I don't know what yet. Half a season in and I don't know what we will represent. What style of play we wanna have. All I know is that we have a VERY experience MLS guy at the helm and that's comforting. What isn't comforting is that the same very experienced guy has chosen a player to play the part of coach.

Many complained about how inexperienced Winter was as a coach. Well we now have someone that is WAY less experienced than Winter was. But it's okay because Payne picked him? God I hope he's right.

Agree with this 100%
Such a short sighted view to let Winter go when they did - even shorter sighted view to hire Mariner as replacement.

tfcleeds
07-18-2013, 02:25 PM
Having Winter and Mariner on the same management team was trying to mix oil with water. Easily one of the worst decisions this FO has ever made.

Ultra & Proud
07-18-2013, 02:46 PM
Cap management was a big Winter problem and so was his evaluation of talent. He was saying how quality Iro was. Everyone forget this?

Also he was guilty of either crazy talk, being unrealistic, or lying to the fans and possibly even to himself. People are going nuts now because Nelsen is still mentioning playoffs. When Winter was here he was saying we were the better team and outplayed our opposition (for 9 matches ) including when we lost 3-1 at home to DCU and were already on a hefty winless skid. His idea was good but not for the way the salary cap is structured in MLS. With $3M you couldn't get good enough players to play his style effectively and with what we had it was easy to shut down. I wanted it work but it never would have.

pdogg
07-18-2013, 02:49 PM
Agree with this 100%
Such a short sighted view to let Winter go when they did - even shorter sighted view to hire Mariner as replacement.

What kills me is that we were only months away from marrying a decent philosophy and style (Winter) with a proper GM (Payne).

MikeM
07-18-2013, 03:03 PM
The W-L record meant nothing to me. Winter had a plan and a vision. It would have taken quite some time, potentially 5-10 years but the result could have been TFC coming closer to European cities.

Instead we elected to get back on the treadmill of MLS re-hashes. How does this league expect to get anywhere when we are just recycling the same players, management and ideas?

We have to teach our kids in the city of Toronto how to play soccer properly. Until we do that, nothing else matters. And to do that, you need something to emulate. Something worth while and professional to emulate.

Sure, we can keep trying to sign stop-gap, 1 or 2 year washed up vets but ultimately they will get you no where. The dream is to field an 11 of players from the city of Toronto. Then we can be called a real football club.

Stouffville_RPB
07-18-2013, 03:04 PM
Cap management was a big Winter problem and so was his evaluation of talent. He was saying how quality Iro was. Everyone forget this?

With $3M you couldn't get good enough players to play his style effectively and with what we had it was easy to shut down. I wanted it work but it never would have.

Don't disagree with the cap management point.

On Iro, I think that Winter didn't want to throw Iro under the bus. Being a former player I think he would have know that the media isn't the place you go to criticize a players ability. If he did that he would lose all trust of his players. (as a side note: how do you think the current TFC players took to the comments from Nelsen on O'Dea's contract?)

Looking at the type of centreback Winter coveted (could play defensively but was also good on the ball) I find it very hard to believe that Iro was a player he sought after. Iro seems to fit the Mariner vision of player much more than Winter.

On the second point I think that is where his initiative with the academy was to come into play. Finding players that had the skill set he was looking for on the open market to fit in under the cap was near impossible but making them would've been an achievable goal.

TFC07
07-18-2013, 03:34 PM
The W-L record meant nothing to me. Winter had a plan and a vision. It would have taken quite some time, potentially 5-10 years but the result could have been TFC coming closer to European cities.

Instead we elected to get back on the treadmill of MLS re-hashes. How does this league expect to get anywhere when we are just recycling the same players, management and ideas?

We have to teach our kids in the city of Toronto how to play soccer properly. Until we do that, nothing else matters. And to do that, you need something to emulate. Something worth while and professional to emulate.

Sure, we can keep trying to sign stop-gap, 1 or 2 year washed up vets but ultimately they will get you no where. The dream is to field an 11 of players from the city of Toronto. Then we can be called a real football club.

I am assuming you mean GTA since our best players come from 905 region not 416 area these days.

brad
07-18-2013, 04:11 PM
The W-L record meant nothing to me. Winter had a plan and a vision. It would have taken quite some time, potentially 5-10 years but the result could have been TFC coming closer to European cities.

Instead we elected to get back on the treadmill of MLS re-hashes. How does this league expect to get anywhere when we are just recycling the same players, management and ideas?

We have to teach our kids in the city of Toronto how to play soccer properly. Until we do that, nothing else matters. And to do that, you need something to emulate. Something worth while and professional to emulate.

Sure, we can keep trying to sign stop-gap, 1 or 2 year washed up vets but ultimately they will get you no where. The dream is to field an 11 of players from the city of Toronto. Then we can be called a real football club.

How long have you been watching the MLS, and do you watch any other teams besides TFC? This league quality in this league has grown massively since we started playing in it.

TOBOR !
07-18-2013, 04:59 PM
I am assuming you mean GTA since our best players come from 905 region not 416 area these days.

I call nitpicking.

Rene Kingsriver
07-18-2013, 06:05 PM
Neither Mariner or Winter deserved to keep their jobs. Winter's track record in league play was even worse than Nelsen's, and many of those losses were complete blowouts. How soon we forget...

bingo! its amazing how people can't seem to grasp the concept that neither Winter nor Mariner were good head coaches and should ever have been given the job

ryan
07-18-2013, 07:29 PM
bingo! its amazing how people can't seem to grasp the concept that neither Winter nor Mariner were good head coaches and should ever have been given the job

It's amazing how we've always had a shit roster, yet everyone ignores the fact that Winter was the only one to ever find anything that resembled success. All while having knives stuck in his back.

inb4 we fall back on "CCL doesn't matter"


Also, by your logic, Nelson shouldn't be here either. Is that your stance?

Rene Kingsriver
07-18-2013, 07:33 PM
It's amazing how we've always had a shit roster, yet everyone ignores the fact that Winter was the only one to ever find anything that resembled success. All while having knives stuck in his back.

inb4 we fall back on "CCL doesn't matter"

You don't need to lecture me on the CCL thanks, I was there in LA. Winter was also the only TFC coach to lose 9 MLS games in a row to begin a season, shows how low the standards are of most people round here that its even considered he should've kept his job.

gate7
07-18-2013, 08:49 PM
Ya, but from what I recall, Winter had lost the locker room, which made replacing him all but a necessity.

....and a year later that locker room has itself lost almost everyone....its good to see all the Winter supporters come out. Last year at this time he was the scapegoat...

If only we could go back to that Galaxy win at Skydome last year and do things different thereafter.

gate7
07-18-2013, 09:06 PM
I give him a lot of credit for the CCL. But to me that does not offset being beyond dreadful in your domestic league.

Nelson has been dreadful for both domestic and CCL. the difference is that "Mr. Shorty-Pants" and Anselmi didn't stay the course not because of the fans but because they were/are both morons.

brad
07-18-2013, 09:10 PM
Nelson has been dreadful for both domestic and CCL. the difference is that "Mr. Shorty-Pants" and Anselmi didn't stay the course not because of the fans but because they were are both morons.

Nelsen has been bad - but that has no bearing on whether or not Winter should have stayed. Difference is Nelsen has a significant chunk of the cap open and Winter did not. Granted a lot of that was the result of the previous regime. No team int this league would be anything but terrible with at least 1/3 of their cap open.

TOBOR !
07-18-2013, 11:08 PM
What if, say, Kevin Payne was in charge of things when Winter was here ?

Oldtimer
07-18-2013, 11:28 PM
Payne is at his very best when he has a coach who sees things a little differently than he does, like a Bruce Arena. Winter might have provided that foil.

A real question is, would TFC fans be willing to wait 5 years until we had enough players trained in the Dutch style, because it became very obvious that NCAA trained soccer players can't make the leap. Judging by the multitude of threads bemoaning the current situation when it was obvious at the start of the year that the rebuild would take more than one season, I think not. Toronto fans don't have the patience. May as well accept it and move on.

Fort York Redcoat
07-19-2013, 07:20 AM
A real question is, would TFC fans be willing to wait 5 years until we had enough players trained in the Dutch style, because it became very obvious that NCAA trained soccer players can't make the leap. Judging by the multitude of threads bemoaning the current situation when it was obvious at the start of the year that the rebuild would take more than one season, I think not. Toronto fans don't have the patience. May as well accept it and move on.

Will do. Also, 5 years? Some people didn't wait 5 games.

v00d00daddy
07-19-2013, 07:58 AM
Payne is at his very best when he has a coach who sees things a little differently than he does, like a Bruce Arena. Winter might have provided that foil.

A real question is, would TFC fans be willing to wait 5 years until we had enough players trained in the Dutch style, because it became very obvious that NCAA trained soccer players can't make the leap. Judging by the multitude of threads bemoaning the current situation when it was obvious at the start of the year that the rebuild would take more than one season, I think not. Toronto fans don't have the patience. May as well accept it and move on.

I HAD the patience for the Winter regime. I would have waited as long as it took as long as I saw progress. This is probably because I knew and believed in what they wanted to implement. I thought it would not only make TFC a good team for a long time, but it would also serve as a model for Canadian football. A great academy cultivating players all playing a similar style that, I hoped, would eventually help Canada see the game in a different way and help us qualify for a World Cup.

With the new regime I agree that we need some patience, but I haven't bought in as much because I don't know what the end result is going to be. Or at least what they're trying to be.

I saw the implementation of the the Dutch system as a huge step forward for all of football in Toronto and Canada. This new regime seems like an attempt by MLS to save our franchise. It worries me as much as it comforts me.

ryan
07-19-2013, 08:01 AM
Payne is at his very best when he has a coach who sees things a little differently than he does, like a Bruce Arena. Winter might have provided that foil.

A real question is, would TFC fans be willing to wait 5 years until we had enough players trained in the Dutch style, because it became very obvious that NCAA trained soccer players can't make the leap. Judging by the multitude of threads bemoaning the current situation when it was obvious at the start of the year that the rebuild would take more than one season, I think not. Toronto fans don't have the patience. May as well accept it and move on.

Unfortunately for me, I have that patience. v00d00 kind of sums the rest of what I think on it.

brad
07-19-2013, 08:34 AM
I think 5 years is generous. You need to get kids in the 8-10 year age bracket to really mold them. I'd say you are looking at closer to 10 years to actually see the effect. And while I suspect that we would have gotten better while waiting for the kids to develop, it might have been a lot of the same for many years. And of course, of the academy only a handful would ever be likely to make the first team.

The other thing with Winter - he told me directly that he underestimated the task when he started. He expected all the players to have basic abilities down (basically - stuff that kids in Holland can do) and he said that a lot of the players did not have that. That gross mis-estimate from the start is not something I fault him for (expecting pros to have the fundementals down) but really made me question if his plan was even possible - in the short to kid term

Great guy though - loved chatting with him.

v00d00daddy
07-19-2013, 09:11 AM
The other thing with Winter - he told me directly that he underestimated the task when he started. He expected all the players to have basic abilities down (basically - stuff that kids in Holland can do) and he said that a lot of the players did not have that. That gross mis-estimate from the start is not something I fault him for (expecting pros to have the fundementals down) but really made me question if his plan was even possible - in the short to kid term

Great guy though - loved chatting with him.

It's scary to hear stuff like that. How can we expect to ever field a competitive team (CMNT I mean) if our training and footballing philosophy does not focus on fundamentals enough?

I had planned on going to Brazil next year to support our boys but I am now beginning to wonder if I'll ever get that chance.

TOBOR !
07-19-2013, 09:24 AM
I HAD the patience for the Winter regime. I would have waited as long as it took as long as I saw progress. This is probably because I knew and believed in what they wanted to implement. I thought it would not only make TFC a good team for a long time, but it would also serve as a model for Canadian football. A great academy cultivating players all playing a similar style that, I hoped, would eventually help Canada see the game in a different way and help us qualify for a World Cup.

With the new regime I agree that we need some patience, but I haven't bought in as much because I don't know what the end result is going to be. Or at least what they're trying to be.

I saw the implementation of the the Dutch system as a huge step forward for all of football in Toronto and Canada. This new regime seems like an attempt by MLS to save our franchise. It worries me as much as it comforts me.

I have less patience and optimism now than I did for Winter.

It's a pity that Klinsmann didn't advise us to get KP at the outset, and then to go after Winter. Who's fucking idea was it to speak to Klinsmann anyway ? Fuck that guy.

brad
07-19-2013, 09:30 AM
It's a pity that Klinsmann didn't advise us to get KP at the outset, and then to go after Winter. Who's fucking idea was it to speak to Klinsmann anyway ? Fuck that guy.

The ownership change and shuffle at the top had to happen for that to work. Otherwise KP would just get meddled with by Anselmi. I bet he would have known enough to stay away. TA probably wouldn't have responded well to suggestions to replace himself :-)

Beach_Red
07-19-2013, 09:46 AM
Payne is at his very best when he has a coach who sees things a little differently than he does, like a Bruce Arena. Winter might have provided that foil.

A real question is, would TFC fans be willing to wait 5 years until we had enough players trained in the Dutch style, because it became very obvious that NCAA trained soccer players can't make the leap. Judging by the multitude of threads bemoaning the current situation when it was obvious at the start of the year that the rebuild would take more than one season, I think not. Toronto fans don't have the patience. May as well accept it and move on.

Don't have the patience or don't have the belief it would work? People are talking as if the plan would work 100% and the players would be developed and play for Toronto.

It's not that I don't have the patience, it's just that's a very longshot to work. There are a lot of industries in Canada that have difficulty developing talent and trouble retaining the best people (the movie business, for example).

Shakes McQueen
07-19-2013, 09:50 AM
Was wondering how long it would be until the rose-coloured glasses threads about the previous regime started. Same thing happened with Preki, and Carver, and Cummins (though at least Cummins' firing was genuinely controversial at the time).

Winter was given a full season, and roughly 1.5 offseasons to tool with the roster, implement the systems he favoured, and show progress. Then, his team opened the second season under his watch, by losing nine games in a row, setting a new MLS record for worst start to a season in the process. And literally all you could say in his favour was "but they seemed to maybe be turning it around!". They finished that season with a whopping four league wins.

We can conjecture all we like that maybe he'd have turned the team around by now, but the evidence that such a dramatic reversal of fortune was coming, is slim at best.

- Scott

v00d00daddy
07-19-2013, 10:58 AM
Was wondering how long it would be until the rose-coloured glasses threads about the previous regime started. Same thing happened with Preki, and Carver, and Cummins (though at least Cummins' firing was genuinely controversial at the time).

Winter was given a full season, and roughly 1.5 offseasons to tool with the roster, implement the systems he favoured, and show progress. Then, his team opened the second season under his watch, by losing nine games in a row, setting a new MLS record for worst start to a season in the process. And literally all you could say in his favour was "but they seemed to maybe be turning it around!". They finished that season with a whopping four league wins.

We can conjecture all we like that maybe he'd have turned the team around by now, but the evidence that such a dramatic reversal of fortune was coming, is slim at best.

- Scott

For me it was all in the title of the thread. "......AND mariner was sacked" was the important part.

Winter was working to implement an already difficult plan with the added hinderance of a team member that wasnt acting like one.

Whoever thought that Mariner and his fucking embarrassing love of dead football from his homeland and winter/bdk would work well together is the biggest culprit here.

MLS knowledge my ass. A bust of Mariner should be made and put up outside the TFC and CSA offices with a plaque that reads:

"This is why we suck as a footballing nation"

Not him specifically but his mentality is what holds us back.

And unfortunately a vision that could help fix it was not only sabotaged by a mope with no vision....but he was actually promoted and asked to make things better. Lol

It's laughable. So bad that the league plopped in one of their flagship soccer men and told him to say that after 17 years of service at dc the only other job he wanted to take is ours.

And we're here eating it all up because, frankly, we have no choice.

Winter and co. were the best football in minds we've ever had in place at this club. We werent patient enough to let them do their thing and the club actually made it harder than it needed to be.

Some yeah, rose coloured glasses are being used in retrospect.

But I think it's better to use them in retrospect than it is to use them in the present as we're doing now.

If I had told you, at the end of last year, that we'd be getting a veteran MLS guy to run our show and that his first order of business would be to hire a still playing player as our coach how would you have reacted?

Optimism?
Cautious optimism?
Skeptical?
Or down right angry? Lol

I started at cautious optimism but with each day I move towards skepticism....and I pine for the rose coloured days of winter and co.

Shakes McQueen
07-19-2013, 11:28 AM
I haven't made up my mind about the job Payne et al. are doing, but I'm content to give them some time to impose their will on the roster sheet, and the training pitch. I also stood vehemently behind Winter his first season here, and insisted that we give him time.

I expected this season to be a write-off, and so far, it has been.

- Scott