Luis Silva Traded

[ensco]

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?33604-I-support-Payne-Nelsen-no-matter-what-happens-tomorrow-or-this-year

You got me! Nice!! :p

I was more referring to my bleak expectations of on field results. I guess I believed them when they said they were building with youth. I didn't think it was conceivable that they would trade Silva for allocation within 3 months.

I am clearly offside and will accept whatever punishment the people decide!

[Phil]

You got me! Nice!! :p

I was more referring to my bleak expectations of on field results. I guess I believed them when they said they were building with youth. I didn't think it was conceivable that they would trade Silva for allocation within 3 months.

I am clearly offside and will accept whatever punishment the people decide!

It just made me do a LOL because it was bumped not long ago. I know what you meant, its fun to have a laugh with friends. I know we didn't really think taking a player at his experience level out of the team was a solid possibility, but the guys who are questioning his playing have done so for some time too.

[Phil]

hey leeds. of course they are not privy prior to a transaction happening, kinda goes without saying -- but the team could have been informed at training prior to the media being involved ... yes it happens this way, but not all the time. most organizations (and teams) will do internal communications before external, nobody wants to be caught unaware by a reporter like that, it reflects poorly on an organization of any nature ... you can almost sense the tone in O'Dea's quote. i posted about it, my opinion, but i don't see a lot of moaning about here, at least not about this aspect of the trade.

Watching the interviews tonight, the players were on the field practicing and the media ask them questions as it breaks over twitter. Not 100% sure, but Payne does his work out of BMO, the players trained at the Academy and twitter moves pretty fast. I would prefer the players know before facing the cameras but this is a case in my mind of the internet moving faster than the phone to a field.

[Auzzy]

I see some good things about this move, and some bad things -- and we won't really have a clue until a few weeks from now. We know a bunch of possible signings/trades this season already fell through, hopefully whatever they're planning works out -- and we don't just get the 9th & 10th player off their list either.

RE the players finding out from the media -- that pisses me off. However, one factor: apparently DC announced this deal a bit too early, on Twitter & their website, and then pulled the story again for a while. But the news was out, so likely TFC had to report it earlier than they planned. (Still doesn't explain why Payne couldn't get someone at the training ground on the phone, tell him to walk out & chat with Nelsen, Nelsen then pulls the players into a huddle and breaks the news at the end of practice, before the players get confronted with the news by the media and grilled on the spot.)

[tfcleeds]

hey leeds. of course they are not privy prior to a transaction happening, kinda goes without saying -- but the team could have been informed at training prior to the media being involved ... yes it happens this way, but not all the time. most organizations (and teams) will do internal communications before external, nobody wants to be caught unaware by a reporter like that, it reflects poorly on an organization of any nature ... you can almost sense the tone in O'Dea's quote. i posted about it, my opinion, but i don't see a lot of moaning about here, at least not about this aspect of the trade.

Of course, my post wasn't directed at anyone in particular - there were 3 or 4 posts that dealt with the same theme, that it was yet another indictment against the organization that players were "left in the dark" about the trade. Ideally, players would be notified about a transaction of this nature, especially one involving a player that's been with the club as long as Luis (yes, it seems funny thinking of him being an elder statesman in terms of longevity, but it's true!) but as Phil alluded to in his post, that isn't always possible. The news probably broke during training, and with the info being released into the sphere of social media, the media got a hold of it before the players had a chance to be informed. I just don't think of this as being some kind of nefarious plot to keep players in the dark (not that you or anyone else described it as being such). You can blame this organization for lacking professionalism in a number of areas, but some things, they can't always control.

[Phil]

I see some good things about this move, and some bad things -- and we won't really have a clue until a few weeks from now. We know a bunch of possible signings/trades this season already fell through, hopefully whatever they're planning works out -- and we don't just get the 9th & 10th player off their list either.

RE the players finding out from the media -- that pisses me off. However, one factor: apparently DC announced this deal a bit too early, on Twitter & their website, and then pulled the story again for a while. But the news was out, so likely TFC had to report it earlier than they planned. (Still doesn't explain why Payne couldn't get someone at the training ground on the phone, tell him to walk out & chat with Nelsen, Nelsen then pulls the players into a huddle and breaks the news at the end of practice, before the players get confronted with the news by the media and grilled on the spot.)

I don't even want to speculate how the rolling blackouts through BMO were dealt with...

[tfcmanu]

how much was Silva getting paid though??? Show him a leader to play with and he will excel.... I saying that, this was a great trade for both Silva and D.C.

$105,000

[Oldtimer]

$105,000

He was over-priced, hate to say. That, probably more than anything else made him a salary-dump target.

[Canary10]

He was over-priced, hate to say. That, probably more than anything else made him a salary-dump target.

Really? Don't think I agree with that. He's a good player. I think he was more a victim of a bunch of moving parts and a system that doesn't really use him properly.

[Phil]

Really? Don't think I agree with that. He's a good player. I think he was more a victim of a bunch of moving parts and a system that doesn't really use him properly.

The preference was probably to move Frei and keep Silva. I would imagine with the cap relief and the money coming back in allocation it leveled out to around the same amount. Just me guessing there.

[jabbronies]

He was over-priced, hate to say. That, probably more than anything else made him a salary-dump target.

what? Would love to hear your rational for this.

The kid clearly had skill to move the ball effectively in the offensive zone in this league. He's not a goal scorer but that shouldn't devalue what he can do well, which was move the ball higher up the pitch. He's still a kid in terms of how many years he's played and he has never had anyone to teach him the game properly. Learning under a guy like Forlan in couple of years he could easily have step into that role once Forlan retied or even played off him in a another capacity.

Reggie lamb and Jeremy Hall would be the 1 and 2 guys on my hit list. Not Silva.

[pekduck]

what? Would love to hear your rational for this.

The kid clearly had skill to move the ball effectively in the offensive zone in this league. He's not a goal scorer but that shouldn't devalue what he can do well, which was move the ball higher up the pitch. He's still a kid in terms of how many years he's played and he has never had anyone to teach him the game properly. Learning under a guy like Forlan in couple of years he could easily have step into that role once Forlan retied or even played off him in a another capacity.

Reggie lamb and Jeremy Hall would be the 1 and 2 guys on my hit list. Not Silva.

(not saying lamb are hall are on the hit list, but...) no one want anyone on our 'hit list', their value is minus... have them around actually worth more value than drop/waive (no cap relief, still have to pay them, less warm bodies)

have to accept the reality of what was handed to the current regime

it's like someone paid $10 for $1 worth Nortel shares, and the price dropped to $0.01.... gave them to the next manager and expect him to sell them for $10.... ain't gonna happen.

Silva on the other hand, actually has value and may be higher now to a DC team, so as long as we get way more allocation money with freed up cap space (hope combined for at least 500 K) then it's a good sale of asset

[Ultra & Proud]

The preference was probably to move Frei and keep Silva. I would imagine with the cap relief and the money coming back in allocation it leveled out to around the same amount. Just me guessing there.

Hindsight being 20/20, if only they made the tough choice and traded him back when Kocic looked the better option we'd be so much better off now. Of course there'd have been a 30 page thread of freaking out about us trading the best GK ever.

[Red I]

(not saying lamb are hall are on the hit list, but...) no one want anyone on our 'hit list', their value is minus... have them around actually worth more value than drop/waive (no cap relief, still have to pay them, less warm bodies)

have to accept the reality of what was handed to the current regime

it's like someone paid $10 for $1 worth Nortel shares, and the price dropped to $0.01.... gave them to the next manager and expect him to sell them for $10.... ain't gonna happen.

Silva on the other hand, actually has value and may be higher now to a DC team, so as long as we get way more allocation money with freed up cap space (hope combined for at least 500 K) then it's a good sale of asset

I was about to say... "$500k, no way in hell", but honestly, who knows if future value is factored into the allocation money figures, especially considering they wanted to build around him in DC

[Ajax TFC]

I'd like to point out that if you divide the salary cap by the 20 on cap roster spots, you get an average of 140.5k per player. By that, Silva's salary was decent. It's the guys who are way above average like Eckersley and O'Dea that cause serious cap trouble.

[Milanista]

what? Would love to hear your rational for this.

The kid clearly had skill to move the ball effectively in the offensive zone in this league. He's not a goal scorer but that shouldn't devalue what he can do well, which was move the ball higher up the pitch. He's still a kid in terms of how many years he's played and he has never had anyone to teach him the game properly. Learning under a guy like Forlan in couple of years he could easily have step into that role once Forlan retied or even played off him in a another capacity.

Reggie lamb and Jeremy Hall would be the 1 and 2 guys on my hit list. Not Silva.

I never saw what you ppl did in this "kid"...He is almost what 25? By this age he has to show the skill sets that ppl claim he has...he is very inconsistant and honestly his passing is overrated. We are in second last place, if management feel they have upgrades coming in that will help us, lets see what they have in mind. We have tons of holes on this team and the midfield is probably the biggest one. You are only as good as your midfield will allow you to be and maybe with new players coming in we won't see this annoying pump the ball down the field and chasing tactics. We need more technical players mixed with hard workers for the mid

[Red I]

.. for a team that was always "four players away", what the hell was the previous FO's rationale for overpaying international defenders, and putting the team so hard against the cap?

[Ultra & Proud]

I don't think $105K made Silva overpriced either. But his potential (unreached as of yet) and that salary (for both sides) made him just about the only legit trade worthy player we have at the moment. No one is taking Hall, Lambe, Braun, Frei, or Wiedeman for any real money. Maybe not even for free. Sometimes you have to make the tough choices. Let's hope they have all the other pieces in place.

[pekduck]

.. for a team that was always "four players away", what the hell was the previous FO's rationale for overpaying international defenders, and putting the team so hard against the cap?

you can't rationalize the irrationals (a.k.a previous regime)

[Ultra & Proud]

.. for a team that was always "four players away", what the hell was the previous FO's rationale for overpaying international defenders, and putting the team so hard against the cap?
I think because we had the worst defense ever and people were just freaking out about it. In Ecks case he was everybody's darling when he was a loanee and everyone wanted him resigned as he was seen a long term piece to build around. O' Dea was a classic knee jerk signing because we didn't get Mellberg (thank God!) and stupid Mariner overpaid. O' Dea is good but not $400K+ good.

[Suds]

I don't think $105K made Silva overpriced either. But his potential (unreached as of yet) and that salary (for both sides) made him just about the only legit trade worthy player we have at the moment. No one is taking Hall, Lambe, Braun, Frei, or Wiedeman for any real money. Maybe not even for free. Sometimes you have to make the tough choices. Let's hope they have all the other pieces in place.

This is key. I don't think the trade of Silva is an indictment of poor performance. I think it shows that he's one of the good assets at the best price we had to get a a good return. Teams are not going to take our bad contracts or players.

[jabbronies]

I never saw what you ppl did in this "kid"...He is almost what 25? By this age he has to show the skill sets that ppl claim he has...he is very inconsistant and honestly his passing is overrated. We are in second last place, if management feel they have upgrades coming in that will help us, lets see what they have in mind. We have tons of holes on this team and the midfield is probably the biggest one. You are only as good as your midfield will allow you to be and maybe with new players coming in we won't see this annoying pump the ball down the field and chasing tactics. We need more technical players mixed with hard workers for the mid

I agree with the wait and see what is in store. It does sound like they have a plan, only time will tell.

My whole problem with the silva trade is that he is 25...with at least another 6-7 years left in him.
So far the guys TFC have brought in - good as some of them are - like an Earnshaw, Caldwell - is that they are mostly solutions for the next 2 years max?

It'll be interesting to see who will be leading this team in 2-3 years time. Our academy kids are ..well kids. in 2-3 years time they will 22 years old ish - not old enough to lead a team...A guy like Silva could easily slot into that mid-upper tier level and could be a leader on this team. He is no Forlan, but he does serve a part.

[Ultra & Proud]

I agree with the wait and see what is in store. It does sound like they have a plan, only time will tell.

My whole problem with the silva trade is that he is 25...with at least another 6-7 years left in him.
So far the guys TFC have brought in - good as some of them are - like an Earnshaw, Caldwell - is that they are mostly solutions for the next 2 years max?

It'll be interesting to see who will be leading this team in 2-3 years time. Our academy kids are ..well kids. in 2-3 years time they will 22 years old ish - not old enough to lead a team...A guy like Silva could easily slot into that mid-upper tier level and could be a leader on this team. He is no Forlan, but he does serve a part.

I get this point but you can't have all kids in year 7 pointing towards an uncertain future if they don't progress as expected. You could if the previous 6 seasons weren't complete shit but they were so now you need a bridge to reach the end product with minimal suffering. It's a noble idea to get all 25 and under guys here who could be around for 6-8 years and grow into a good team but for the next 2-3 season of the 10 we'll be mired in the basement of this league and would have had to live through more protests and manager changes no doubt. You can have the best of both worlds if it's done right. And yes I know we've never done it right but some teams do and now we have someone in charge who isn't an idiot.

[ensco]

Silva wasn't overpriced. Cmon. Jeez. His salary relative to his potential contribution is why DC want him.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I would've liked to see more of him but he wasn't making this team better at the rate we need.

[tfcmanu]

Interesting what Silva said:

“I am an attacking midfielder, and if I get the ball at my feet, I can make things happen,” he said. “I can score. I can set up people. That is my football. Unfortunately, back in Toronto, we didn’t play with an attacking midfielder, so hopefully here they use me in the right position and right spot.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/soccer-insider/wp/2013/07/10/d-c-united-news-and-notes-21/

[Canary10]

Interesting what Silva said:

“I am an attacking midfielder, and if I get the ball at my feet, I can make things happen,” he said. “I can score. I can set up people. That is my football. Unfortunately, back in Toronto, we didn’t play with an attacking midfielder, so hopefully here they use me in the right position and right spot.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/soccer-insider/wp/2013/07/10/d-c-united-news-and-notes-21/

That's exactly what I was saying above. Nelsen doesn't use an AM. That's the footballing reason for the trade.

[mowe]

Interesting what Silva said:

“I am an attacking midfielder, and if I get the ball at my feet, I can make things happen,” he said. “I can score. I can set up people. That is my football. Unfortunately, back in Toronto, we didn’t play with an attacking midfielder, so hopefully here they use me in the right position and right spot.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/soccer-insider/wp/2013/07/10/d-c-united-news-and-notes-21/

He's right about that. Only Winter used him in his natural position as a CAM where his vision could be best utilized.

Side note: That's another reason Bekker hasn't found a place on this team. He's a purely attacking mid and Nelson plays with two central mids and two strikers. But that system needs wingers to work.

[OgtheDim]

Interesting, because Payne and Nelsen have pretty much indicated they are looking for somebody for Laba to get the ball to, and that this guy would be the creative attacking force. They obviously thought Silva wasn't good enough to be that guy.

I think Nelsen will use an AM given the opportunity. Up until now, he's been using two DM's (Hall and Laba) and relying upon the two other midfielders and the forwards to do the creative work. But, with a Forlan, or an AM, coming in, I can't see Nelsen leaving one of Koevs or Earnshaw on the bench if available to play together.

[Canary10]

Interesting, because Payne and Nelsen have pretty much indicated they are looking for somebody for Laba to get the ball to, and that this guy would be the creative attacking force. They obviously thought Silva wasn't good enough to be that guy.

I think Nelsen will use an AM given the opportunity. Up until now, he's been using two DM's (Hall and Laba) and relying upon the two other midfielders and the forwards to do the creative work. But, with a Forlan, or an AM, coming in, I can't see Nelsen leaving one of Koevs or Earnshaw on the bench if available to play together.

I don't think he'll go with an AM. There's a difference between a "creative attacking force" and an attacking midfielder. I think he wants a box to box central midfielder who is good on the ball, can make things happen. I don't think he specifically wants an AM. We still need that player regardless of what happens - Osorio, ideally, should play behind him in the depth chart so he can be eased in, as he can play box to box and is creative. My guess is Forlan would play as a forward, likely in a withdrawn roll so he come back for the ball. And be free to do what he wants (ie. drift out to the wings, etc).

To be honest it's been driving me crazy that so many people seem to talk about the "AM role" when we haven't used (much) under Nelsen. I'm like, "what AM role?"

[Ajax TFC]

He's right about that. Only Winter used him in his natural position as a CAM where his vision could be best utilized.

And IMO he was complete crap in that system. He played way too high up the pitch (practically right next to the striker), and didn't demonstrate much spacial awareness in regards to helping control the midfield. He usually ignored the big empty space behind him instead of dropping back into it, leaving the DMs with no real for ward passing option, and he didn't close down space defensively either which allowed the other teams' DMs complete freedom to make plays.

IMO his best games for us were those two games earlier this year when he played CAM behind two strikers and the other three mids played more reserved and fed him the ball from behind and from the sides.


Side note: That's another reason Bekker hasn't found a place on this team. He's a purely attacking mid and Nelson plays with two central mids and two strikers. But that system needs wingers to work.
Bekker is a CM playmaker. The reason why he hasn't gotten PT is that his defensive reactions aren't very good... at all. He'll look defensively focused for most of a game, and then he'll just let someone run by him without even putting in an effort, or he'll just stand back and wait for someone else to come in to collect a loose ball that he's closest to.

[ag futbol]

And IMO he was complete crap in that system. He played way too high up the pitch (practically right next to the striker), and didn't demonstrate much spacial awareness in regards to helping control the midfield. He usually ignored the big empty space behind him instead of dropping back into it, leaving the DMs with no real for ward passing option, and he didn't close down space defensively either which allowed the other teams' DMs complete freedom to make plays.

IMO his best games for us were those two games earlier this year when he played CAM behind two strikers and the other three mids played more reserved and fed him the ball from behind and from the sides.


Bekker is a CM playmaker. The reason why he hasn't gotten PT is that his defensive reactions aren't very good... at all. He'll look defensively focused for most of a game, and then he'll just let someone run by him without even putting in an effort, or he'll just stand back and wait for someone else to come in to collect a loose ball that he's closest to.
Agreed. The way Silva plays, I question whether he's really an AM. Definitely saw the same thing you did in terms of dropping into the space between the midfield and the forwards. He doesn't get in there and facilitate the attack often enough, which is exactly what you'd hope an AM would do. But, I do find it somewhat annoying that we're not making the most of the resources we have and rigidly sticking to our system.

[Ajax TFC]

I don't think he'll go with an AM. There's a difference between a "creative attacking force" and an attacking midfielder. I think he wants a box to box central midfielder who is good on the ball, can make things happen. I don't think he specifically wants an AM. We still need that player regardless of what happens - Osorio, ideally, should play behind him in the depth chart so he can be eased in, as he can play box to box and is creative. My guess is Forlan would play as a forward, likely in a withdrawn roll so he come back for the ball. And be free to do what he wants (ie. drift out to the wings, etc).

To be honest it's been driving me crazy that so many people seem to talk about the "AM role" when we haven't used (much) under Nelsen. I'm like, "what AM role?"
I think Nelsen is trying to build the team in the mold of a Redknapp team. For Example, Redknapp's Spurs team:




Role
Spurs
TFC


Bombing RB
Walker
Richter/Russell


A Defensive B2B
Parker
Laba/Hall



a creative B2B
Modric
New signing


two-way wide players
Bale, Lennon
Lambe, Convey, Oso, New signings


poacher
Ade/Defoe
Earnie/Koev/Braun



creative SS
VdV
Brockie/Silva/QPRkid/Forlan?

[Ultra & Proud]

But, I do find it somewhat annoying that we're not making the most of the resources we have and rigidly sticking to our system.

But then this is why we always fail and don't develop an identity (something we always talk about). System before players. You can get the players to fit your system in time as long as that system falls within reasonable limits of the the team and league's salary structure (ie. there will be no Barcelona's in MLS). Bending the system to suit what you have means players never get used to a proper rigid system and you get defensive lapses and the unfamiliarity that we've seen from our team for too long. AT least recently it looked like everyone at least knew where to be and looked to be on the same page and sticking to that system is what does it.

[jloome]

Silva wasn't overpriced. Cmon. Jeez. His salary relative to his potential contribution is why DC want him.

If this all falls apart and we get someone old and ineffective, it might be time for the secret diary of Tim Lieweke....

[A Stick]

Nelson has been playing the wrong system for weeks and playing players out of position. We should have been playing 4-2-3-1 with Silva in the middle of the three mid-fielders. We are week up front but playing 2 up front with Silva as a striker was stupid and it weakened the midfield. I think the team as a whole has been playing better of late but Nelson is making the same tactical mistakes that Mariner made. 4-4-2 is not suitable for the players we have on our team. End of story!

[Initial B]

I think Nelsen is trying to build the team in the mold of a Redknapp team. For Example, Redknapp's Spurs team:



Role
Spurs
TFC


Bombing RB
Walker
Richter/Russell


A Defensive B2B
Parker
Laba/Hall


a creative B2B
Modric
New signing


two-way wide players
Bale, Lennon
Lambe, Convey, Oso, New signings


poacher
Ade/Defoe
Earnie/Koev/Braun


creative SS
VdV
Brockie/Silva/QPRkid/Forlan?



See, that's what bothers me. Every coach that we've brought in has had a significantly different system than the previous hire. From Cummins (4-4-2) to Preki (5-4-1) to Winter (4-3-3) to Mariner (4-2-2), they're all significantly different, which led to perfectly good players who were traded because they no longer fit the new coach's system. If the team actually replace coaches with those of like-style that matched the system we wanted to develop we might have had less of a problem. But Anselmi was admittedly clueless and strove to give the fans whatever flavour of the month would get bums in the seats and sell tickets, which left us with a bare cupboard and players who were practically strangers - a new expansion team every year.

I'm sorry, but I feel 4-4-2 is not the way of the future and not the key to entertaining soccer. I had hoped that Nelsen might try some more modern formations, like a 4-3-3 or 4-1-3-2 or 4-2-3-1, but I feel we are once again going to be stuck with uninspiring, last-century, UK hoofball. What's worse, Payne will probably bring in coaches that will keep the identity that the team will start forging from here on in. I'm not sure it's an identity or style that I'm going to like. I really hope that these new SA players that are supposedly coming in will have more flair that will offset the teams tactical UK roots.

[ensco]

I'm still unhappy. But Nelsen's not a formation hardhead the way Winter was. Nelsen has played plenty of 4-4-1-1 this year, Silva should/could have been the recessed striker in that system. He has also played quite a bit of the diamond in midfield, again something that would work for Silva.

The formation talk is a sideshow, as always.

Silva was not having a good year. I don't respect Silva for saying what he said today. If he keeps it up, he may convince me that the team was right!

[Ivy]

I'm still unhappy. But Nelsen's not a formation hardhead the way Winter was. Nelsen has played plenty of 4-4-1-1 this year, Silva should/could have been the recessed striker in that system. He has also played quite a bit of the diamond in midfield, again something that would work for Silva.

The formation talk is a sideshow, as always.

Silva was not having a good year. I don't respect Silva for saying what he said today. If he keeps it up, he may convince me that the team was right!
What did he say? I only saw the quote where he said that he's surprised he was traded and he thinks its because Toronto doesn't use an AM, so there was no place for him.
Was there more?

[Parkdale]

Urriti signs a loaded contract where this year he's not DP, but next year his gets DP money?

make sure he gets those terms in writing (you know... like Dero didn't bother do do. granted dero made a deal with a snake)

[OgtheDim]

This is getting off topic, but I'm pretty sure we were playing a 4-2-3-1 when Silva was in as a forward. And the Montreal game looked more like a 4-1-3-2 at times. I don't see the rigidity. We certainly are not playing two banks of 4, which is the calling card of the British rigid 4-4-2. We are going to play 4 along the back...that is obvious. And, we are wedded to a DM in Laba, which is good. But apart from that, I don't see the rigidity.

Back on topic, I think Silva wasn't going to be a starter in that central or wide attacking role. As such, he was worth more selling him to DCU, who seem to be looking at Silva as a DeRo type.

[ensco]

What did he say? I only saw the quote where he said that he's surprised he was traded and he thinks its because Toronto doesn't use an AM, so there was no place for him.
Was there more?

This is what he should have said:

"I didn't make the most of my chances this year, but I believe in myself, I'm grateful for the opportunities I received in Toronto, and I will work hard to fit in wherever the manager needs me in DC".

This is what Silva said:

“I am an attacking midfielder, and if I get the ball at my feet, I can make things happen,” he said. “I can score. I can set up people. That is my football. Unfortunately, back in Toronto, we didn’t play with an attacking midfielder, so hopefully here they use me in the right position and right spot.”

_________________________


As if Nelsen was using him at CB or something!

Maybe Olsen can bring Silva breakfast in bed too, when he's not busy otherwise catering to Silva's need to blame his "position" in the offensive end as somehow linked to whether he gets the ball at his feet.

Hey Luis, buttercup, ever notice how many good forwards (best MLS example is Donovan, Dero too, Messi is another, also Forlan btw) don't really have a set position, but somehow manage to "get the ball at their feet"?

[BuSaPuNk]

Back on topic, I think Silva wasn't going to be a starter in that central or wide attacking role. As such, he was worth more selling him to DCU, who seem to be looking at Silva as a DeRo type.

Exactly I can't believe we got 10 pages of this. He wasn't in the plans and we really don't employ a AM. Better to get something for him that we can use.

[OgtheDim]

...

....

Maybe Olsen can bring Silva breakfast in bed too, when he's not busy otherwise catering to Silva's need to blame his "position" in the offensive end as somehow linked to whether he gets the ball at his feet.

Hey Luis, buttercup, ever notice how many good forwards (best MLS example is Donovan, Dero too, Messi is another, also Forlan btw) don't really have a set position, but somehow manage to "get the ball at their feet"?


That explains a few things:

He's thinking back to his college days and hoping to recapture that. Understandable...but wrong.

In school, he sit's in a hole, and because he has better technique then those around him, when he gets the ball, he can do things.

Then he moves up to a place where he is playing against players who all have better technique, and also have experience. He sits in a hole...and doesn't get the ball. When he does get the ball, his technique gets him into places. BUT, he doesn't score or pass at the rate he used to because people have experience at averting the choices he makes.

What he hasn't grasped yet, and maybe won't, is that for attacking midfielders, the difference at this level between journeymen and all stars is adjusting where you go before you get the ball based on figuring out what your next move will be after you get the ball.


Which leads me to believe that Silva might end up being like a DeRo.

But, he is more likely to end up being like an attacking version of a Dunfield. Lots of heart but just not quite the real deal.

[ensco]

This is getting off topic, but I'm pretty sure we were playing a 4-2-3-1 when Silva was in as a forward. And the Montreal game looked more like a 4-1-3-2 at times. I don't see the rigidity. We certainly are not playing two banks of 4, which is the calling card of the British rigid 4-4-2. We are going to play 4 along the back...that is obvious. And, we are wedded to a DM in Laba, which is good. But apart from that, I don't see the rigidity.



I saw what you saw in the Montreal game. Could have been 4-1-3-2, could have been the diamond, not sure. Doesn't matter.

[Ultra & Proud]

Agree 100% with your post Ogthedim and it reminds me what someone here or on Usec said about Silva and his lack of hustle on the defensive side and how he will play hard for a while then mysteriously just stand there and wait for things to happen. I think that's the thing with him. When he is into the match and moving he can get the ball and make things happen like he did on the O'Dea goal. Other times he stands around waiting in the space between the forward line and the mids to get the ball and since he is just waiting, he is fairly easy to pressure and mark out of the match. Probably also explains why he was most effective at forward where waiting for the ball is part of the gig.

[Ultra & Proud]

This is what he should have said:

"I didn't make the most of my chances this year, but I believe in myself, I'm grateful for the opportunities I received in Toronto, and I will work hard to fit in wherever the manager needs me in DC".

This is what Silva said:

“I am an attacking midfielder, and if I get the ball at my feet, I can make things happen,” he said. “I can score. I can set up people. That is my football. Unfortunately, back in Toronto, we didn’t play with an attacking midfielder, so hopefully here they use me in the right position and right spot.”

_________________________


As if Nelsen was using him at CB or something!

Maybe Olsen can bring Silva breakfast in bed too, when he's not busy otherwise catering to Silva's need to blame his "position" in the offensive end as somehow linked to whether he gets the ball at his feet.

Hey Luis, buttercup, ever notice how many good forwards (best MLS example is Donovan, Dero too, Messi is another, also Forlan btw) don't really have a set position, but somehow manage to "get the ball at their feet"?


Totally bang on and I'm not sure if he noticed but he was the most effective in Toronto under Mariner when used at forward. Maybe I missed everything for the past 50 matches but I don't recall a whole lot of him pulling the strings and making things happen with any of his 3 managers thus far. Not to the level he thinks anyway.

[Oldtimer]

People are wondering why I said Silva is overpaid. He's not overpaid in a league sense (that is to other teams), but he's vastly overpaid for us when we've got a better option (Osario at $46,500) for how we actually use him. If DC actually are looking at him as a DeRo replacement, then they may have paid a lot to get him.

[stevep]

You can't handle the truth


I'm still unhappy. But Nelsen's not a formation hardhead the way Winter was. Nelsen has played plenty of 4-4-1-1 this year, Silva should/could have been the recessed striker in that system. He has also played quite a bit of the diamond in midfield, again something that would work for Silva.

The formation talk is a sideshow, as always.

Silva was not having a good year. I don't respect Silva for saying what he said today. If he keeps it up, he may convince me that the team was right!

[v00d00daddy]

You know what you guys are missing more than anything else about Silva and his positioning/awareness/deroness and so on?

For most of this season we've been playing hoof it over the head of the midfielders football. We STILL play every ball on a goal kick up as a 50/50 ball.

Forget the formation. We don't play with an AM. We DON'T look to play balls at players feet. He's bang on about that.

I'm fine with it all if they go out and get a player that can do it (Forlan) but to say that Silva is wrong when he says that we don't play with an AM is wrong.

It'll be interesting to see how things go if/when we have Urruti/Forlan/Laba on the field and they're being fed by O'Dea, Eckersley, Lambe, Caldwell, Bendik and coached by Nelsen.

I predict conflicting mentalities on the field.

Sorry...continue with the Silva bashing.

[Oldtimer]

I think Nelsen is trying to build the team in the mold of a Redknapp team. For Example, Redknapp's Spurs team:




Role
Spurs
TFC


Bombing RB
Walker
Richter/Russell


A Defensive B2B
Parker
Laba/Hall


a creative B2B
Modric
New signing


two-way wide players
Bale, Lennon
Lambe, Convey, Oso, New signings


poacher
Ade/Defoe
Earnie/Koev/Braun


creative SS
VdV
Brockie/Silva/QPRkid/Forlan?




An interesting idea. It's posts like this that expands our horizon and make this board a great place to discuss football.

[Fort York Redcoat]

This is what he should have said:

"I didn't make the most of my chances this year, but I believe in myself, I'm grateful for the opportunities I received in Toronto, and I will work hard to fit in wherever the manager needs me in DC".

This is what Silva said:

“I am an attacking midfielder, and if I get the ball at my feet, I can make things happen,” he said. “I can score. I can set up people. That is my football. Unfortunately, back in Toronto, we didn’t play with an attacking midfielder, so hopefully here they use me in the right position and right spot.”

_________________________


As if Nelsen was using him at CB or something!

Maybe Olsen can bring Silva breakfast in bed too, when he's not busy otherwise catering to Silva's need to blame his "position" in the offensive end as somehow linked to whether he gets the ball at his feet.

Hey Luis, buttercup, ever notice how many good forwards (best MLS example is Donovan, Dero too, Messi is another, also Forlan btw) don't really have a set position, but somehow manage to "get the ball at their feet"?



Exactly I can't believe we got 10 pages of this. He wasn't in the plans and we really don't employ a AM. Better to get something for him that we can use.


You know what you guys are missing more than anything else about Silva and his positioning/awareness/deroness and so on?

For most of this season we've been playing hoof it over the head of the midfielders football. We STILL play every ball on a goal kick up as a 50/50 ball.

Forget the formation. We don't play with an AM. We DON'T look to play balls at players feet. He's bang on about that.

I'm fine with it all if they go out and get a player that can do it (Forlan) but to say that Silva is wrong when he says that we don't play with an AM is wrong.

It'll be interesting to see how things go if/when we have Urruti/Forlan/Laba on the field and they're being fed by O'Dea, Eckersley, Lambe, Caldwell, Bendik and coached by Nelsen.

I predict conflicting mentalities on the field.

Sorry...continue with the Silva bashing.

The above quotes don't seem to support Silva bashing. They seem to support your saying we don't play with an AM as Silva needs.

I agree with the prediction but it's not a new one. Talented foreign veterans have always had disconnects and needed to mend difference in mentalities (and skill level) on an MLS pitch.

[Daze]

Fuck off with this hoof it over everyone's head shit. It's not like we're some Sam allardyce fantasy team. We play it long just as much as everyone else. Actually I think we played it long more under winter than we do now.

Silva though. Fuck him. He had his chances. It's not like playing as a withdrawn CF is all that much different from playing AM. even when he did have opportunities this season to run at the defense and make a play his decision making and bad touch always let him down. And when was he at his best last season? when he was playing Closer to the net and mariner was his coach.

[v00d00daddy]

Fuck off with this hoof it over everyone's head shit. It's not like we're some Sam allardyce fantasy team. We play it long just as much as everyone else. Actually I think we played it long more under winter than we do now.

Silva though. Fuck him. He had his chances. It's not like playing as a withdrawn CF is all that much different from playing AM. even when he did have opportunities this season to run at the defense and make a play his decision making and bad touch always let him down. And when was he at his best last season? when he was playing Closer to the net and mariner was his coach.

Ahh okay. Fuck Silva, he had his chances.
We played the ball long more under Winter.

Right.

I'll add. Fuck Frei, he had his chances.

Hopefully soon it will be fuck Osorio, he had his chances.

Btw...I'm not a big stats guy but your comments make me wonder if you even watch the games so:

In the last 5 games (1win, 1loss, 3ties)

-we've been out possessed in every game (twice badly)
-we've been beaten in passes in every game
-we've been beaten in pass percentage completed in 4 out of 5 games (we competed 77% of passes against Montreal who only completed 75%)

If you watch the games you'll see that Bendik hoofs the ball down field on 99% of goal kicks. You'll also see that in the attacking half we play long throws more than anything else too.

O'Dea favours the long ball. So does Richter. So that's both of our outside backs (and ecks is even worse when he returns)

So please tell me how we played more long ball under Winter and tell me how everyone else plays long ball as much as we do.

[T-boy]

I don't think Nelson's overall plan is "hoof it" football. You can see how he wants to play (two stay at home CM's, play it to winger, overlapping full backs, cross to strong instinctive forward pair). There is a lot of movement and passing involved in that type of team. It may not be the "in thing" to get it to the wings quickly to make the attack, but it can be very effective.

[v00d00daddy]

I don't think Nelson's overall plan is "hoof it" football. You can see how he wants to play (two stay at home CM's, play it to winger, overlapping full backs, cross to strong instinctive forward pair). There is a lot of movement and passing involved in that type of team. It may not be the "in thing" to get it to the wings quickly to make the attack, but it can be very effective.

Hoofball is not the plan. It's the choice based on the first option not being there. That's what frustrates me.

If his plan is to always play two stay at home CM then that sucks.

If his plan is to use overlapping wingbacks when the two out there right now are O'Dea and Richter (soon to be replace by Ecks) then that sucks too.

Are we getting an attack minded, left sided fullback? If so, then maybe it will work a bit better.

We also don't have wingers. Lambe on the right and Convey on the left is terrible.

Combine all this with the hope that we'll be getting some new players for the middle of the field (Urruti, Forlan) and already have Laba and I don't think the game plan stays the same. Which begs the question. Why are we playing this style now?

If Payne's wish is to have skill based latin players and Lieweke wants a huge name DP (and I assume these things are going to continue to happen) then why aren't we tailoring a game plan to help implement that.

Why are we playing a style with redundant central mids (laba with one of Hall or Russell) and with wingbacks who are either not wingbacks at all (O'Dea) or ones that can't pull it off (Richter)?

I think keeping Silva and trying to move one of the others to get some allocation money would have been a better plan. Moving Frei would have been ideal but we didn't play him so nobody is going to want a starting keeper (which he is) who has been demoted to a backup for a year. (another poor choice if you ask me)

[Richard]

4-3-3 is probably the best option. :hide:

[jloome]

4-3-3 is probably the best option. :hide:

I like it as an two-way 4-5-1, where both deep central midfielders alternate moving forward to support the buildup based on the side of the field being covered, and both the wide and inside players play two ways, so that if the possession moves inside, for example, the wing drops back to cover the space behind the central players. It always leaves the weak side anchorman back, too, so there's a lot of time of possession but also a lot of defensive coverage.

--------------Striker---------------
W------------AM-------------W
--------DM---------Dm---------
fb---------cb------cb---------fb

[Canary10]

As a player, and playing as holding mid, I really hate the diamond formation. Leaves way too much on one player to defend in the midfield, and a lot of ground to cover. It's really easy to get overrun in the central mid when you play against two speedy central midfielders. I think it's the worst variant on 4-4-2. I'd rather have two central midfielders as Nelsen has it, as long as you have two guys who understand each other and know where each is at all times. And a balance of a good tackler/distributer, and a guy good on the ball, able to make the last past, not afraid to take on players.

[pekduck]

As a player, and playing as holding mid, I really hate the diamond formation. Leaves way too much on one player to defend in the midfield, and a lot of ground to cover. It's really easy to get overrun in the central mid when you play against two speedy central midfielders. I think it's the worst variant on 4-4-2. I'd rather have two central midfielders as Nelsen has it, as long as you have two guys who understand each other and know where each is at all times. And a balance of a good tackler/distributer, and a guy good on the ball, able to make the last past, not afraid to take on players.

agreed, see

http://www.mlssoccer.com/video/2013/07/10/between-lines-unsung-midfield-heroes

It actually mentioned what TFC is trying to do with 2 B2B mid and how it haven't clicked like other effective pairings in the league

[v00d00daddy]

I like it as an two-way 4-5-1, where both deep central midfielders alternate moving forward to support the buildup based on the side of the field being covered, and both the wide and inside players play two ways, so that if the possession moves inside, for example, the wing drops back to cover the space behind the central players. It always leaves the weak side anchorman back, too, so there's a lot of time of possession but also a lot of defensive coverage.

--------------Striker---------------
W------------AM-------------W
--------DM---------Dm---------
fb---------cb------cb---------fb

I like this too but I think we could do well (assuming the guys coming are actually coming lol) with a 3-5-2

----------------------Urruti----------
---------------Forlan-------------------
--Convey?---------------Osorio-----
-----------------Laba------------------
--Morgan------------------------Eckersley
------O'Dea-----Caldwell----Boss----
----------------Bendik-----------------

It's a crude picture sorry. But in essence we defend with 5 across the back with the wing backs (eck and morgan) being able to be outlets on the counter because both have the pace to get upfield and get back but they don't need to be wingers that HAVE to put balls into the box.

Basically 5 at the back when we're defending and 5 in the midfield when we're moving up. I think this would let Forlan drift.

My only concern would be whether or not Laba can hold that much of the park. Osorio and Convey would have to come back more in to their half (our 18 yard line) than they usually do.

Think this would work?

Fuck...just realized this is the Silva thread. Sorry. LOL

[notthesun]

If you're playing a 3-5-2 like that the most important players are the wing backs. No better example than Juventus, Asamoah and Lichsteiner are both absolute workhorses. They sprint for the entire game and are both defensively responsible and offensively dangerous (able to take on a man and put in a good cross). Most importantly though, they constantly offer supporting runs to stretch the other team and create space and options for Pirlo in the middle.

Laba has shown to be very composed on the ball and he can play a decent one as well. If he had the support I think he'd do fine in that formation. The problem is I don't know if he'd get the support. Eckersley has the stamina and workrate to at least always be involved in that position, but he's not very effective going forward. Morgan is also not a threat offensively (not this year anyways), not as responsible defensively, and I doubt he could be running all game without eventually making a number of mistakes due to fatigue.

If your right and left wing backs aren't threats in the opponent's third you lose all width in a 3-5-2. Lichsteiner and Asamoah constantly bomb forward and attack the RB and LB on the corner of their box. If you watched Italy vs Spain in the Confederations Cup it was the same thing with Maggio down the right flank. It stretches your opponent, giving your middle three space to work. If your three CMs don't have that option of moving the ball out wide because the RWB and LWB aren't getting the job done, they'll be under too much pressure in the middle and will likely be facing 4 midfielders marking the 3 of them all game. And even if Morgan and Eckersley can provide the support with their runs, if they can't play in a cross once they get down the sideline we'll be stuck with trying to pass through the defense as the only real option. If the RWB and LWB aren't crossing the ball in this formation you won't be putting in very many crosses at all, since they're pretty much the only players who'll regularly be in a position to whip a ball in (as opposed to for example a 4-4-2 where both the RM/LM and RB/LB will be crossing regularly).

(Attempt to keep this on topic) Silva would work in Convey's spot in this formation, btw.

[Ajax TFC]

4-3-3 is probably the best option. :hide:
I'd like that, but I think we lack the wide players to make it happen. Short pants chased away all our wingers. Lambe's been crap all year, Convey I don't have a whole lot of hope for, and Brockie is only on loan. Maybe he could give Welshman a chance there.

[Initial B]

I like it as an two-way 4-5-1, where both deep central midfielders alternate moving forward to support the buildup based on the side of the field being covered, and both the wide and inside players play two ways, so that if the possession moves inside, for example, the wing drops back to cover the space behind the central players. It always leaves the weak side anchorman back, too, so there's a lot of time of possession but also a lot of defensive coverage.

--------------Striker---------------
W------------AM-------------W
--------DM---------Dm---------
fb---------cb------cb---------fb
See, this confuses me - it looks like a 4-2-3-1 formation but you're calling it a 4-5-1. What's the difference between the two?

[OgtheDim]

Payne interview flat out said Silva traded for allocation to bring in "1 or 2 players that can start for us".

That's the line now. 1 or 2 players this window who can start for us.

[v00d00daddy]

Payne interview flat out said Silva traded for allocation to bring in "1 or 2 players that can start for us".

That's the line now. 1 or 2 players this window who can start for us.

And he HAS to be held to that.

[Jack]

See, this confuses me - it looks like a 4-2-3-1 formation but you're calling it a 4-5-1. What's the difference between the two?
I would say semantics.

[jloome]

See, this confuses me - it looks like a 4-2-3-1 formation but you're calling it a 4-5-1. What's the difference between the two?

Like Jack said. Most of the modern variants are just 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 with minor positional adjustments, and those are usually based on the players available. Canary, I prefer the 4-5-1 to the 3-5-2 but they serve the same purpose in this case, I guess it depends whether you like having one central guy hang back as an anchor (my preference) or whether you like to have a fullback drop back to make the four.

[Ultra & Proud]

And he HAS to be held to that.

Well there had better be something.

[TFC07]

Too bad Danny K is always hurt or out of shape because he's perfect player for 4-2-3-1 formation which I am sure Nelsen will eventually use once we get the players.

[jabbronies]

See, this confuses me - it looks like a 4-2-3-1 formation but you're calling it a 4-5-1. What's the difference between the two?


I would say semantics.


Like Jack said. Most of the modern variants are just 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 with minor positional adjustments, and those are usually based on the players available.

Well for starters the base formation for 4-5-1 and a 4-2-3-1 look very different.

A 4-5-1 can easily transition into a 4-3-3 on the fly with fast wingers; Gives you more of a wide attacking style up front on the break giving you two outside wingers to feed the lone striker - then on the defensive when needed you can load the midfield and have 5 across. You need fast players for this.


4-3-2-1 is essentially 4-3-3, but your 2 forwards are tighter together with the striker - not like wingers out wide. they also don't drop back as far as they would've in a 4-5-1. It's pretty 1 dimensional

[Detroit_TFC]

Payne interview flat out said Silva traded for allocation to bring in "1 or 2 players that can start for us".

That's the line now. 1 or 2 players this window who can start for us.

I hope this refers to replacing Silva and not our overall objective for this window. At least two, probably more like three is what we need right now in this window. If the can gets kicked down the road to January, we'll be looking a the same old crap preseason, again.

[Ultra & Proud]

I hope this refers to replacing Silva and not our overall objective for this window. At least two, probably more like three is what we need right now in this window. If the can gets kicked down the road to January, we'll be looking a the same old crap preseason, again.

From that interview, I think that's what he meant.

[jloome]

4-3-2-1 is essentially 4-3-3, but your 2 forwards are tighter together with the striker - not like wingers out wide. they also don't drop back as far as they would've in a 4-5-1. It's pretty 1 dimensional

It's only one-dimension if you hate buildup and possession. Mexican teams play it, and it's smooth and attractive to watch.

If you play direct passing, yes, it's one-dimensional. But if you play with technical, two-way players, it allows for a very flexible approach, with defensive midfielders coming forward to support, wide players coming inside or staying outside if the attacking midfielder fills the channel into the box. There's all sorts of things you can do with it if you have the right players. It's a totally zonal system, with each player responsible for the full length of a channel. The only reason you drop the two midfielders back initially is for a general sense of defensive positioning responsibility -- where you want them in the zone when the ball crosses the half. It's not because they play DM throughout the game.

[jabbronies]

It's only one-dimension if you hate buildup and possession. Mexican teams play it, and it's smooth and attractive to watch.

If you play direct passing, yes, it's one-dimensional. But if you play with technical, two-way players, it allows for a very flexible approach, with defensive midfielders coming forward to support, wide players coming inside or staying outside if the attacking midfielder fills the channel into the box. There's all sorts of things you can do with it if you have the right players. It's a totally zonal system, with each player responsible for the full length of a channel. The only reason you drop the two midfielders back initially is for a general sense of defensive positioning responsibility -- where you want them in the zone when the ball crosses the half. It's not because they play DM throughout the game.

umm ok - so calling it 1 dimensional means I hate buildup and possession?

If you have technically skilled, two way players - any formation is smooth and attractive to watch and allows for buildup and possession to occur.

Alternativly you can if you have a bunch of noobs on the pitch you can take that formation and fuck it up by playing long ball the whole match and now this formation is horrible and boring to watch.

keeping players fixed in a zone is what makes it 1 dimensional. They have a single role to play and they play it. There's limited room to expand beyond that...hence why it's 1 dimensional.

Sure with the right players it's attractive and effective, but what formation isn't with the right players.

[Morlesio14]

I haven't heard many positive comments on Nelsen from many of our players

[jabbronies]

I haven't heard many positive comments on Nelsen from many of our players

it's to be expected. The team he and Payne inherited were clearly not their first choice team.

[jloome]

it's to be expected. The team he and Payne inherited were clearly not their first choice team.

Also to be expected. Payne said the other night that when they took over, they were seven players short of a full roster but still well over the cap. We were a total mess, from top to bottom.

He also talked about the existing regime having developed an expectation of losing.

[jabbronies]

Also to be expected. Payne said the other night that when they took over, they were seven players short of a full roster but still well over the cap. We were a total mess, from top to bottom.

He also talked about the existing regime having developed an expectation of losing.

This happens in every work place, not surprised that it also happens with a football team - let's not forget, this is their job and workplace.
Some people can get over it, others hang on to the past.

[gate7]

I haven't heard many positive comments on Nelsen from many of our players

I would would feel negative to my manager and boss if they wanted me off the team too.......which is everyone from 2012 season it seems.

[JonO]

I was more okay about this move prior to the O'Dea transfer (or whatever is happening with him). I could understand that we were ridiculously over the cap and need to make drastic moves to reign in some costs. However, it makes less sense to me if we have O'Dea's massive contract off the books. Do we get cap relief for O'Dea or is it just the international slot?

[Phil]

We get pro-rated cap relief on all the moves. So Silva is about 50K plus allocation, O'dea is 250k. Put in some of the other guys, its a pretty big chunk.

[backbeat]

We get pro-rated cap relief on all the moves. So Silva is about 50K plus allocation, O'dea is 250k. Put in some of the other guys, its a pretty big chunk.


and my understanding is the allocation $ for Silva are substantial

[BuSaPuNk]

The number floating around is 1-2 million in allocation.

[Petor]

The number floating around is 1-2 million in allocation.

Wow, really, that much?

Links?

[mowe]

The number floating around is 1-2 million in allocation.

Wow! That would make it a great move for TFC. Where did you see that?

[BuSaPuNk]

Number was floating around twitter can't find the tweet I seen. I think it's probably the total salary we got rid of and the allocation combined. Sure it's closer to the one million mark. Probably in the neighborhood of 750k to 1 mil.

[v00d00daddy]

I'm no expert in MLS salaries but how can one acquisition land us 1-2 million dollars in allocation? With a 3 million dollar cap how can DCU afford to give us 1-2 million dollars in allocation money? It sounds like way too much to me. I wish they published their allocation transactions in the league. Ahh well.

[BuSaPuNk]

I'm no expert in MLS salaries but how can one acquisition land us 1-2 million dollars in allocation? With a 3 million dollar cap how can DCU afford to give us 1-2 million dollars in allocation money? It sounds like way too much to me. I wish they published their allocation transactions in the league. Ahh well.

I'm thinking its a combination of Silvas salary and the allocation given to us by DC. The numbers probably closer to 750k. Trying to find where I seem it but its twitter and well we all know the crap that flys around there. 500k isn't a unrealistic number in terms of allocation. Especially if a team isn't going to use it.

[Yohan]

DC is stupid beyond words if Silva was paid for more than 300k in allocation, and that's rare amount of allocation being swapped

[BuSaPuNk]

^ so what I seen was blown out of purportion. Not surprised. So what do we think the number is around 100-150k? Wish allocation and salarys were alot more open then they are.

We all know how screwed we are financially because of past signings and mariner with his big guaranteed contracts. But it would give us a better understanding if we knew the numbers. Plus it would also show us that Payne isn't just blowing smoke on what were getting back.

[Pint]

So if we sold O'Dea with a transfer fee how does it work? how % do we get and is that allocation money (ie can be added to our cap number) or just cash for the team?

[BuSaPuNk]

Pretty sure it's cash for the team like the Edu transfer. It's split between the leauge and us.

[Yohan]

So if we sold O'Dea with a transfer fee how does it work? how % do we get and is that allocation money (ie can be added to our cap number) or just cash for the team?
don't quote me, but it's something like 1/3 of the transfer fee goes to the league, 2/3 to the team. of the 2/3 to the team, max 500k can be used as allocation money, the rest is suppose to be used to upgrade the team in other ways (IE new grass for BMO Field)

[backbeat]

don't quote me, but it's something like 1/3 of the transfer fee goes to the league, 2/3 to the team. of the 2/3 to the team, max 500k can be used as allocation money, the rest is suppose to be used to upgrade the team in other ways (IE new grass for BMO Field)


the figures i've heard, and i have no idea what they really are and i supposed this is how 'broken telephone' works, but i heard close to $500K in allocation, 50K is salary cap for Silva and $250k salary cap and $1 mil in transfer for O'Dea - for what little it's worth....my info that is, not the $, they'd be wonderful....

[Ivy]

Awesome, so O'Dea got us cap relief, and new grass at BMO field. We fly high.

[Oldtimer]

DC is stupid beyond words if Silva was paid for more than 300k in allocation, and that's rare amount of allocation being swapped

DC thinks Silva is the next DeRo. $300k is not too much at all if that were true. Even a double-allocation ($600k) is conceivable. You'd get a DP-quality player at a regular salary (at least until he signs a cheque in the air). I don't think Silva is actually that good, but if they do, why not collect the cash?

DC has tonnes of allocation cash, if rumours are correct. It's useless unless you use it.

[brad]

Also - remember that DC just sold Rochat and would have gotten a chunk of his fee in allocation. Rumored amount of the transfer was $700k

[Yohan]

DC thinks Silva is the next DeRo. $300k is not too much at all if that were true. Even a double-allocation ($600k) is conceivable. You'd get a DP-quality player at a regular salary (at least until he signs a cheque in the air). I don't think Silva is actually that good, but if they do, why not collect the cash?

DC has tonnes of allocation cash, if rumours are correct. It's useless unless you use it.Not that I have much faith in Dave Kaspar, but even a moron would not rate Silva who has proven jackshit that much.

If DC wants to blow their allocation money away, I have no issues but generally, MLS teams spend allocation money like miserly scrooge. (hence why teams rather trade draft picks if allocation money is too big) Star players get swapped for 500k in allocation money. Silva is not a star player.

[Phil]

Allocation is a funny beast. We get allocation for the finish we had last year (bottom of the league). We get more allocation for the CCL advance. They pretty much have allocation raining down from a number of places, and rules about how and when its used.

[ryan]

Allocation is a funny beast. We get allocation for the finish we had last year (bottom of the league). We get more allocation for the CCL advance. They pretty much have allocation raining down from a number of places, and rules about how and when its used.

Allocation just feeds the corrupt "MLS controls the league" system IMO.

It's all hidden, hush hush secrecy so nobody really knows what's going on. Just another tool Don Garbage has to ensure he puts the players he can get, where he wants.

Toronto has fans and revenue despite being an atrocious team. Toronto meets just about every criteria for gaining Allocation money. Yet Toronto can't land players to save their own ass, while other clubs have rosters that look like we're in the wrong league when matched up.

The Don doesn't care about Canada. Someone has to be last place and I'm sure he enjoys it being Toronto, because this town loves to support losing teams. We don't vote with our wallets here. Some people pride themselves on it, to me it's foolish and counterproductive if you want real change, instead of "TFC change".

Anyways, Tim said his piece, all aboard the Maple Lip Service Express we go.

[Oldtimer]

The Don doesn't care about Canada. Someone has to be last place and I'm sure he enjoys it being Toronto, because this town loves to support losing teams. We don't vote with our wallets here. Some people pride themselves on it, to me it's foolish and counterproductive if you want real change, instead of "TFC change".


Partially true.

Don didn't care when TFC was selling out all of the time. However, with attendance declining, he engineered the move of Payne from DC to Toronto to straighten out the mess Anselmi had made. It was arranged directly with George Cope, CEO of Bell, right over Anselmi's head.

We tend to look at the MLS teams as strident competitors. In real life, MLS is more like a country club where everyone is friends with everyone and "competition" is playing bridge every Saturday afternoon. They all work together to ensure that MLS as a whole succeeds.

[ryan]

Partially true.

Don didn't care when TFC was selling out all of the time. However, with attendance declining, he engineered the move of Payne from DC to Toronto to straighten out the mess Anselmi had made. It was arranged directly with George Cope, CEO of Bell, right over Anselmi's head.

We tend to look at the MLS teams as strident competitors. In real life, MLS is more like a country club where everyone is friends with everyone and "competition" is playing bridge every Saturday afternoon. They all work together to ensure that MLS as a whole succeeds.

Our attendance is currently 8th, a mere 100 per game off 5th.

We're really not a problem for them. This is ideal for the "league as a whole succeeding".

Anyways this thread aint about this, so I'll let it be.