Attendance being stretched again?

[Gilberto9]

I was looking over the attendance numbers over the past few games and I'm not sure if the numbers are reflecting the actual amount of fans in the stadium... We all know Toronto FC has stretched the numbers before

June 1st, vs Union: 19,221
June 29th, vs RSL: 20841

I wasn't at either of the games so I am just judging based on what I saw from my TV. Especially in the RSL game, a good amount of empty seats were visible in the south end.

For those who were at the game, do these numbers seem accurate?

[ensco]

I think this probably describes it best.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/09/world/asia/09iht-north.1.20696199.html?_r=0

[Abou Sky]

Both those numbers mean +/- 1in10 seats empty which I don't think is too far off.

Many people show up 20+ minutes late and many are under the north stands at the bar (probably 500 at any time)

[tiberius]

I was looking over the attendance numbers over the past few games and I'm not sure if the numbers are reflecting the actual amount of fans in the stadium... We all know Toronto FC has stretched the numbers before

June 1st, vs Union: 19,221
June 29th, vs RSL: 20841

I wasn't at either of the games so I am just judging based on what I saw from my TV. Especially in the RSL game, a good amount of empty seats were visible in the south end.

For those who were at the game, do these numbers seem accurate?

The announced "Attendance " marketing spin number continues to be:

all season tickets + extra tickets sold + all tickets given away

Total capacity of BMO is about 22,500

yesterday was 50% - 60% full = 11,250 - 13,500 actual bums in seats


The whole issue revolves around Toronto FC's continued dishonest, deceitful, very public use of the word "Attendance". Beirne still thinks lying to fans and the world, in a very public way ,is OK. The sooner he leaves the better. Let's start telling the truth Paul. Just because other teams fudge the "attendance", does not mean that a club with class has to do it. Try: "tickets distributed for this match" or "anticipated attendance" or dream up something else, give you are paid the big bucks!

[Shakes McQueen]

They can claim attendance is whatever they want - it doesn't really matter. A well-managed, well-run team matters to me - whatever attendance delusions thay put forward to impress, does not.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

The announced "Attendance " marketing spin number continues to be:

all season tickets + extra tickets sold + all tickets given away

Total capacity of BMO is about 22,500

yesterday was 50% - 60% full = 11,250 - 13,500 actual bums in seats


The whole issue revolves around Toronto FC's continued dishonest, deceitful, very public use of the word "Attendance". Beirne still thinks lying to fans and the world, in a very public way ,is OK. The sooner he leaves the better. Let's start telling the truth Paul. Just because others do it, does not mean that a club with class has to do it. Try: "tickets distributed for this match" or "anticipated attendance" or dream up something else, give you are paid the big bucks!

Why do you care if Paul B is "lying" to you about attendance? All clubs spin their attendance numbers, and aside from a bit of interesting trivia, or a chance for fans to crow about how successful their team is, it's utterly irrelevant.

- Scott

[TFC07]

Last game, most of the sections outside east stands were 75% full at least based what I saw at the game. Next year, TFC needs to reduce ticket prices in North and East stands.

[tiberius]

Why do you care if Paul B is "lying" to you about attendance? All clubs spin their attendance numbers, and aside from a bit of interesting trivia, or a chance for fans to crow about how successful their team is, it's utterly irrelevant.

- Scott

I prefer the truth - especially after all these years - must admit, I am funny that way... I had another look at yesterdays game - seats are probably more like 65-75% on east side - so probably 15,000 - 16,000, depending on the upper tier...

[Gilberto9]

Stretching attendance is not something I'm a fan of, but this caught my attention because I thought TFC stopped with this BS at the beginning of the year in the first few home games, but now it looks like they've started to stretch attendance again. Why the change?

[tiberius]

They can claim attendance is whatever they want - it doesn't really matter. A well-managed, well-run team matters to me - whatever attendance delusions thay put forward to impress, does not.

- Scott

Shakes: I agree 100% - but with all of the other delusions we have had to put up with over the years, this is one they could put straight in a heart beat, with very little effort. It speaks to integrity and having class. We have not seen very much of that over the years... especially from the FO.

[stevielarson]

Shakes: I agree 100% - but with all of the other delusions we have had to put up with over the years, this is one they could put straight in a heart beat, with very little effort. It speaks to integrity and having class. We have not seen very much of that over the years... especially from the FO.

Didnt you yourself define attendance as tickets sold + given away? Who really cares? I didnt listen to the numbers at the start of the season but if they actually were announcing the "bums in seats" number and then have switched back to what we all knew they have been doing the past few years, then I have more of an issue. Just be consistent.

Its not like TFC are the only team in the world doing this. Many teams in many different sports use the term "sellout" when not every seat in the building is full.

[Shakes McQueen]

I prefer the truth - especially after all these years - must admit, I am funny that way...

In a contextual vacuum, I prefer the truth as well. In the context of a sports team trumping up their attendance numbers, I can't summon up much more than an eyeroll and a move to the next subject of conversation. It doesn't matter.

- Scott

[tiberius]

In a contextual vacuum, I prefer the truth as well. In the context of a sports team trumping up their attendance numbers, I can't summon up much more than an eyeroll and a move to the next subject of conversation. It doesn't matter.

- Scott


:rolleyes5::rolleyes5:

“Perhaps we have been guilty of some terminological inexactitudes.” Paul B. 2007-2013

[Ivy]

In a contextual vacuum, I prefer the truth as well. In the context of a sports team trumping up their attendance numbers, I can't summon up much more than an eyeroll and a move to the next subject of conversation. It doesn't matter.

- Scott
seriously... Who got time to worry about what they announce? I've got bills to pay and shit...

[Detroit_TFC]

What ever the precise #, there were way more people there than any previous home game at BMO this year. 220 to date has been almost completely empty, Sat it was fairly full. I assume there is some aggressive discounting going on, those people in 220 weren't STH.

[West220Side]

It doesn't bother me that they lie about attendance over the loud speakers. Want to know what really bugs me? That because the cameras are normally showing the south side and our "fanbase" that they capitalize on, they've been packing in ANYBODY they can, thats soccer moms and dads and their kids into supporters sections where people stand, chant, and the occasional swear word is screamed.

Its beginning to affect my game day experience. On the pitch performance has never bothered me, its the security in the stands siding with these people(*) who should really be in the family section instead of a paying SSH.

* - Just so nobody gets offended. I went to my first game with Toronto FC when I was 13 or 14, and i'm 19 now. When my dad brought me to games, he knew what would happen at a football match, we sing, we chant. I'm not talking about the families who come out and want to enjoy a football match. I'm gearing more towards the families who have a problem with people standing up in front of them in 115.

[Gilberto9]

It doesn't bother me that they lie about attendance over the loud speakers. Want to know what really bugs me? That because the cameras are normally showing the south side and our "fanbase" that they capitalize on, they've been packing in ANYBODY they can, thats soccer moms and dads and their kids into supporters sections where people stand, chant, and the occasional swear word is screamed.

Its beginning to affect my game day experience. On the pitch performance has never bothered me, its the security in the stands siding with these people(*) who should really be in the family section instead of a paying SSH.

* - Just so nobody gets offended. I went to my first game with Toronto FC when I was 13 or 14, and i'm 19 now. When my dad brought me to games, he knew what would happen at a football match, we sing, we chant. I'm not talking about the families who come out and want to enjoy a football match. I'm gearing more towards the families who have a problem with people standing up in front of them in 115.

It would make more sense to pack these families into the east stand, make it look better on TV. Personally I'm always in 113 and don't hear any singing and chanting from any sections but 111,112,113. South end needs to become a real supporters section again... That means get rid of the families and the sitting and move them to the east stand

[Petor]

It would make more sense to pack these families into the east stand, make it look better on TV. Personally I'm always in 113 and don't hear any singing and chanting from any sections but 111,112,113. South end needs to become a real supporters section again... That means get rid of the families and the sitting and move them to the east stand

And who is going to pay the difference in ticket prices for the moved families? You?

[ensco]

Why do you care if Paul B is "lying" to you about attendance? All clubs spin their attendance numbers, and aside from a bit of interesting trivia, or a chance for fans to crow about how successful their team is, it's utterly irrelevant.

- Scott

You are wrong on this. It all matters.

I have learned in life that, when there are coffee stains on the tray tables, you should wonder about whether the engine maintenance is being done properly.

[Abou Sky]

I wish they would get that sections are more/less a sunk cost and simply have a 4 for $60 deal in the 200s with some drinks and popcorn.

Pull a 'Skydome' and only allow one beer per person and make it a proper family section.

We need to accommodate everyone and need a place where parents feel totally safe bringing their kids.

Of course, I will be in 112 with my 9 year old because I don't care, but we need better diversity and accessibility for all.

[BeachTory]

The numbers announced are the tickets redeemed at the gate. The numbers are legit.
what average price paid, how many freebies you wont know. The announced gate is an audit number that impacts the fees tfc pays for the stadium, the staffing ratios, the concession net backs to the city, the gate portion to the league etc etc.
if anything, tfc would be incented to announce lower the real numbers. They have too many other organizations to account to including the CRA.

Most posters here watch the games and are not under the stands to see the traffic at the concessions. I sit high enough to see people still arriving at half time(!) walking accross the parking lot.

i wont explain the tv visuals because i cant. I have seen the audits and they reflect the scanned gate that gets announced. I can say that the private boxes ran out of many items at half time as the boxes were very full and very busy.

[OgtheDim]

My understanding is MLS policy is

gate total = tickets sold + unsold tickets used(freebies)

Same as in the America League in baseball

[Shakes McQueen]

You are wrong on this. It all matters.

I have learned in life that, when there are coffee stains on the tray tables, you should wonder about whether the engine maintenance is being done properly.

But again - they all do it. And I don't even mean just MLS. These are businesses that have a vested interest in sounding or looking like they are doing better than they are, if necessary. And they certainly aren't all shitty organizations stem to stern.

If they want to impress shareholders, or sports media, by claiming everything is great - whatever. It is irrelevant to me.

- Scott

[Yagbod]

Earlier last month Phil mentioned, in a thread that I think was deleted, that due to a Fire Marshall's concern about overcrowding in some sections there would be extra security vigilance on the way into sections. Did anyone notice anything different? Was anyone checked or turned away on the way into 111, 112 or any other supporters section?

Sorry for being slightly off topic, but this is an attendance issue. Thanks!

[Gringo Starr]

There are always empty seats in 111 with many people coming in at the half to meet up with friends. Never seen anyone turned away or checked, past few games were no different...I actually wish they would check I'm tired of having to begin the second half by listening to mundane conversations about the price of real estate and people dating lives...

[Auzzy]

What BeachTory said is very interesting if true. I really have no idea exactly how attendance is counted. Some games it looks fairly legit if you consider late arrivals, early departures, beer garden etc etc. Other games it looks way off.

Generally however I find that some people are too worried about attendance. I've seen footy games and highlights from around the world, and I'm amazed how empty many stadiums are, often much emptier than what we see at TFC or almost all MLS teams. These leagues usually pay much higher salaries than MLS. (I realize that TV deals, sponsorships, and/or benevolent tycoons help to keep these other leagues afloat.) I think attendance is fairly important for atmosphere -- but keeping naive families out of the supporters sections is even more important, as is having a competent team, etc etc etc. Generally I think we should fret less about attendance, or about crazy ideas that TFC might be sold or whatever due to declining ticket sales. We're far away from that.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Earlier last month Phil mentioned, in a thread that I think was deleted, that due to a Fire Marshall's concern about overcrowding in some sections there would be extra security vigilance on the way into sections. Did anyone notice anything different? Was anyone checked or turned away on the way into 111, 112 or any other supporters section?

Sorry for being slightly off topic, but this is an attendance issue. Thanks!

It wasn't deleted and there were no outstanding issues.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Stretching attendance is not something I'm a fan of, but this caught my attention because I thought TFC stopped with this BS at the beginning of the year in the first few home games, but now it looks like they've started to stretch attendance again. Why the change?


Do you know many fans of truth stretching? I'll leave you all to it but this issue is never a positive.


Would we have an appreciation thread if someone were to find out attendance was accurate to the very person for a game? A season? Anyway, this isn't my discussion wheelhouse but I wanted to raise that one point.

[Richard]

As long as Payne and upper management know the real attendance then everything else doesn't matter, they can bullshit the public all they want but management know dire situation with the club.

[tfcleeds]

Quite frankly, I'm surprised fans still show up in the numbers they do after 7 years of this.

[brad]

My understanding is MLS policy is

gate total = tickets sold + unsold tickets used(freebies)

Same as in the America League in baseball

Bingo - MLS inflates the attendence numbers league wide. This is not just a TFC thing.

Keep in mind that attendance numbers often used by folks to look at how "big" a league is. MLS's strong "attendance" is cited as strong point of the league. This is going to increase attention, possibly pull in more sponsors/money. I don't see it as a bad thing.

[glaze]

I wish they would get that sections are more/less a sunk cost and simply have a 4 for $60 deal in the 200s with some drinks and popcorn.
Pull a 'Skydome' and only allow one beer per person and make it a proper family section.
We need to accommodate everyone and need a place where parents feel totally safe bringing their kids.
Of course, I will be in 112 with my 9 year old because I don't care, but we need better diversity and accessibility for all.

I think attendance numbers are somewhat irrelevant once you are above 80 percent capacity. Does it really matter if MLSE says 20,000 instead of 18,000? Saturday seemed pretty full, though not at capacity.

While I have no sympathy for adults who want to sit in a supporters section, the issue of kids is one we have to concern ourselves with. I don't know if this is an issue in 112, but it is in 110 and 111. I don't want to ruin someone's gameday experience, but MLSE can afford to market a family section. They do it for the Raptors. Find a corporate sponsor and come up with some deal for a section that currently is undersold.

I think many people are buying into supporters sections not knowing what they entail. There is a potential for conflict. Perhaps MLSE could write "STANDING ROOM" on the tickets so its very clear to all before they enter.

[Yagbod]

It wasn't deleted and there were no outstanding issues.

Thanks! I couldn't find it to see if there were any comments. It was a rather alarming possibility that could affect supporters culture so I was curious to see if it happened or not.

[Phil]

Earlier last month Phil mentioned, in a thread that I think was deleted, that due to a Fire Marshall's concern about overcrowding in some sections there would be extra security vigilance on the way into sections. Did anyone notice anything different? Was anyone checked or turned away on the way into 111, 112 or any other supporters section?

Sorry for being slightly off topic, but this is an attendance issue. Thanks!

I did speak with some people that had ushers checking tickets a bit more closely on the weekend. Thread has been moved as it was placed in the wrong area.

Attencence is the number of tickets sold, not scanned at the gate. This all changed a number of years ago.

[69Chevy396]

Quite frankly, I'm surprised fans still show up in the numbers they do after 7 years of this.
Best post here. If mlse lived up to their many promises, that "BMO expansion thread' would not have become irrelevant and amusing.

[Initial B]

If TFC really wants to make the illusion of more bums in the seats, then I would recommend lowering the price point for all of the east-stand sections to encourage migration from the west-stand sections. I would also make sections 106 and the upper half of 107 a family zone with half-price tickets for kids under the age of 16. Any SSH that need to be relocated should be allowed to choose Red-zone seats at Dark Grey-zone prices for a year, or first pick at the relocation event next year. If there is ever a time to do it, I think it would be now when SSH renewals fall through the floor next year as casual fans finally give up on the team.

[Mark in Ottawa]

Attencence is the number of tickets sold, not scanned at the gate. This all changed a number of years ago.
So ... {Set conspiracy setting on} ...
If 5 minutes before game time "someone" buys a big whack of tickets on-line or at a BMO ticket window never intending to use them
then the attendance numbers would be inflated?? Who or what organization would do such a thing??

Perhaps the one running the event :rolleyes:
{Set conspiracy setting off} ... That is all.