Are the fans getting value for money watching TFC?

[Wombat]

I was a Season Ticket holder from Day 1, but finally pulled the plug and did not renew for this year.

Yesterday was my first BMO visit this season

The GOOD - great seats on the bar-stools along the edge of the pitch, opposite the Main Stand. Only 10 ft away from the players so get to see the skills, power and players talking to each other. TFC played very well throughout the game - can't remember seeing speed and direct play like that very often before. TFC are normally sluggish and slow-moving from the back, without many creative midfielders & forwards, so looks like Ryan Nelson has put together a good team playing a direct attacking style. Earnshaw looks the real-deal - we have never had a true 'goal poacher' in the side before... unluky not to score yesterday, but good for the fans to see a speedy, aggresive striker in the side.

The BAD - seeing the team capitulate at the death AGAIN. Failing to close out games (seems like we did this every F'ckin game last season)... 90th minute goal conceded yesterday, shows the old failings are still there.

The UGLY - why are TFC fans still getting ripped off when buying beer? Contract with Carlsberg is obviously done so in come Budweiser / Labatt. Two cans of Keiths was charged as PREMIUM domestic and BUD charged as REGULAR domestic. I work in the beer industry - both beers are regular product made in Canada & cost the same per case at the Beer Store. MLSE / Labatt are taking us for stupid mugs and jacking up prices with no justification. Keiths is PREMIUM and we deserve to pay $10:50 a can??? - do fuck off.

TFC Fans still getting screwed over by the team and MLSE.... not much has changed at BMO which justifies my decision not to shell out another $1500 on season tickets this year.

Oh.... and crowds of 10-11,000 are half compared to years 1 & 2 when we were packed out every game, so I am not the only one to feel ripped off & unappreciated by the club. We love TFC and the opportunity to see good level soccer in Toronto, but the club has got to connect better with the fans & give us value for our hard earned money.

[69Chevy396]

I was a Season Ticket holder from Day 1, but finally pulled the plug and did not renew for this year.

Yesterday was my first BMO visit this season

The GOOD - great seats on the bar-stools along the edge of the pitch, opposite the Main Stand. Only 10 ft away from the players so get to see the skills, power and players talking to each other. TFC played very well throughout the game - can't remember seeing speed and direct play like that very often before. TFC are normally sluggish and slow-moving from the back, without many creative midfielders & forwards, so looks like Ryan Nelson has put together a good team playing a direct attacking style. Earnshaw looks the real-deal - we have never had a true 'goal poacher' in the side before... unluky not to score yesterday, but good for the fans to see a speedy, aggresive striker in the side.

The BAD - seeing the team capitulate at the death AGAIN. Failing to close out games (seems like we did this every F'ckin game last season)... 90th minute goal conceded yesterday, shows the old failings are still there.

The UGLY - why are TFC fans still getting ripped off when buying beer? Contract with Carlsberg is obviously done so in come Budweiser / Labatt. Two cans of Keiths was charged as PREMIUM domestic and BUD charged as REGULAR domestic. I work in the beer industry - both beers are regular product made in Canada & cost the same per case at the Beer Store. MLSE / Labatt are taking us for stupid mugs and jacking up prices with no justification. Keiths is PREMIUM and we deserve to pay $10:50 a can??? - do fuck off.

TFC Fans still getting screwed over by the team and MLSE.... not much has changed at BMO which justifies my decision not to shell out another $1500 on season tickets this year.

Oh.... and crowds of 10-11,000 are half compared to years 1 & 2 when we were packed out every game, so I am not the only one to feel ripped off & unappreciated by the club. We love TFC and the opportunity to see good level soccer in Toronto, but the club has got to connect better with the fans & give us value for our hard earned money.Nothing will turn around until a new owner replaces mlse. No secret that they remain the worst sports entertainment business in north america based on winning percentages etc.

[[NBF]]

I watch the games just in case I miss something I might regret not having seen on tv, but I always enjoy watching the Vancouver Whitecaps on tv and I dont mind watching the Montreal Impact either. Whenever I watch TFC, Im always doing something on the side as well just to have something to do and so that I dont fall asleep. L-O-L.

BTW, I'll never forget how awesome it was to see that black cat run across the field and behind Hall. Its engraved in my head. I guess I watch TFC now just to see how badly they are against other teams and to see how badly they let the goals in the net. You can learn so much about the game when you see the good and the bad.

Watching TFC is like learning to drive by watching YouTube videos of "driving fails".

[Daze]

Nothing will turn around until a new owner replaces mlse. No secret that they remain the worst sports entertainment business in north america based on winning percentages etc.

I think that's unfair. It's not like they haven't tried putting the right people in place and i think they're doing a lt better now that they're owned by Rogers & Bell. the jays are spending money and signing high caliber players. The raptors made the Rudy Gay trade and brought in GM of the year. The leafs just made the playoffs. and we hired a proven MLS executive to run our team for the long haul.

Things haven't fallen as well as everyone would have hoped but those are all positive signs of progression. Something that there never was while the Teachers owned MLSE. Give it time. It'll get better.

[T-boy]

The beer prices are fairly regular, like in all sports and music venues where you can't bring in outside food or drink (Amphitheatre, hell even Wonderland charge insane prices for the same food that would be half the price outside the park). It's just one of those things. If you have a monopoly over sales, and there is demand, you can charge as much as you like!

Personally, I never buy beer at BMO, I just can't justify $10 for a poured can of beer that you can buy at the store for a couple of bucks, maybe even less!

[ag futbol]

I think that's unfair. It's not like they haven't tried putting the right people in place and i think they're doing a lt better now that they're owned by Rogers & Bell. the jays are spending money and signing high caliber players. The raptors made the Rudy Gay trade and brought in GM of the year. The leafs just made the playoffs. and we hired a proven MLS executive to run our team for the long haul.
Some of this is encouraging, but a lot of it is simply very small successes we would hope would be the start of better trends.

Take the leafs making the playoffs for example. That's good, but more importantly they have a young team and are likely to continue to build and make runs to the post season. For an organization like the leafs, the big picture is that it should be talking about consistently being an elite team and not just finishing in the top half. So hopefully they are on the road to that. For the raptors trading for Rudy Gay was an extremely high-risk high-reward transaction. It's another anchor of a contract that will be extremely hard to move if he doesn't play well. And we replaced the guy who just pulled the trigger on that deal a few months back, seems like a head scratcher to me. Uriji is promising and he just cleaned house today, which was necessary. Anyway, you add it all up and under the new ownership things look better than under the old but there's really still no sustained success to speak of. So I'm not particularly willing to give them much credit.

[ensco]

I put this in the game thread earlier today:

God it looked empty for a Saturday in June. The whole "Year 1 pricing" thing is backfiring, because, as everyone knew, the whole year is a write-off, and the tickets (outside of the cheapest seats) are not worth it.

The team should have given this year's seats to last years SSHs for free.

Most of the seats still cost way too much. I think spending $20 or less on a ticket is fine. But 3/4 of the seats at BMO are $30-50 on an SSH basis, 25% more game by game.

I think Anselmi and Beirne need to be out of the business office, before the marketing mistakes of the past can be addressed.

[Daze]

I put this in the game thread earlier today:

God it looked empty for a Saturday in June. The whole "Year 1 pricing" thing is backfiring, because, as everyone knew, the whole year is a write-off, and the tickets (outside of the cheapest seats) are not worth it.

The team should have given this year's seats to last years SSHs for free.

Most of the seats still cost way too much. I think spending $20 or less on a ticket is fine. But 3/4 of the seats at BMO are $30-50 on an SSH basis, 25% more game by game.

I think Anselmi and Beirne need to be out of the business office, before the marketing mistakes of the best can really be addressed.

I think a quite a bit of the stadium being more empty than usual had to do with the weather being predicted to be far worse than it was.

[gate7]

wow...how many excuses for a shitty product can one bare? Makes me feel depressed to be such a pushover as a SSH..

[Mark in Ottawa]

Value for Money really is a personal measurement isn't it. Being a supporter "from away" makes the measurement a little different for me.

Did I get good Value for Money those first few years when I had a "ransom pack"?? I would have to say yes for the new experiences, game day excitement and all of the great acquaintances I made through the Red Patch Boys.

As the product suffered on the field and the supporters found it tougher and tougher to sustain momentum that value measurement suffered along with it. After the time I personally allotted to the "5 year plan" ran out without sustained improvement I dropped my partial pack of tickets but continue to attend a handful of games each year (albeit some of those being TFC games in Montreal as it is a shorter road trip for me).

I still enjoy my time with my old friends while making new ones through the RPB. I spend very little money at BMO field and certainly none on over priced alcohol. I buy tickets from other RPB at cost or have even resorted to getting some via AirMiles.
I have also used AirMiles to get VIA rail vouchers and those paired with Internet Special train rates mean I spend little going to see TFC compared to what I used to.

So in short ... times change ... you adapt ... and if you feel that you are not getting value for money you look for other methods to decrease the cash outlay or to change your gameday experience to feel that you are getting better value for the $$ you do spend. I am still a TFC supporter and will remain a member of the RPB as well as the 75 Mile Bastards and who knows ... someday soon I may get rewarded for supporting TFC in a feel good sort of way.

[james]

The early years were great. Stadium was full, atmosphere was great. However today people are bored of watching a borring team play, it is even worse to watch them play on TV. When a good team comes to play Toronto, they look like they actually lower down to Toronto's level of playing making the game even worse. increase tickets sales also killed many fans, many will probably never come back. The strict security rules and regulations also pissed off many Supports in the South End. Many of them left and will also never be back.

Only things that can bring back atmosphere to what it once was is having a winning team for once, low ticket prices, possibly new owners other then MLSE, maybe more friendship between supporter groups and head office/stadium security, or maybe a big renovation of BMO field (some other new MLS stadiums are much nicer), or even by lowering beer prices (very unlikely).

[Shakes McQueen]

If you don't care as much about good football and winning, and are just there for the experience? Sure

If you do? Clearly you are not.

Even if you agree with the ultimate direction the team is taking, it doesn't make seeing losses and late draws every week any more bang for your buck. You just have to calculate how much "being a fan" weighs in on your own version of "being entertained". It's different for everyone.

- Scott

[james]

I was a Season Ticket holder from Day 1, but finally pulled the plug and did not renew for this year.

Yesterday was my first BMO visit this season

The GOOD - great seats on the bar-stools along the edge of the pitch, opposite the Main Stand. Only 10 ft away from the players so get to see the skills, power and players talking to each other. TFC played very well throughout the game - can't remember seeing speed and direct play like that very often before. TFC are normally sluggish and slow-moving from the back, without many creative midfielders & forwards, so looks like Ryan Nelson has put together a good team playing a direct attacking style. Earnshaw looks the real-deal - we have never had a true 'goal poacher' in the side before... unluky not to score yesterday, but good for the fans to see a speedy, aggresive striker in the side.

The BAD - seeing the team capitulate at the death AGAIN. Failing to close out games (seems like we did this every F'ckin game last season)... 90th minute goal conceded yesterday, shows the old failings are still there.

The UGLY - why are TFC fans still getting ripped off when buying beer? Contract with Carlsberg is obviously done so in come Budweiser / Labatt. Two cans of Keiths was charged as PREMIUM domestic and BUD charged as REGULAR domestic. I work in the beer industry - both beers are regular product made in Canada & cost the same per case at the Beer Store. MLSE / Labatt are taking us for stupid mugs and jacking up prices with no justification. Keiths is PREMIUM and we deserve to pay $10:50 a can??? - do fuck off.

TFC Fans still getting screwed over by the team and MLSE.... not much has changed at BMO which justifies my decision not to shell out another $1500 on season tickets this year.

Oh.... and crowds of 10-11,000 are half compared to years 1 & 2 when we were packed out every game, so I am not the only one to feel ripped off & unappreciated by the club. We love TFC and the opportunity to see good level soccer in Toronto, but the club has got to connect better with the fans & give us value for our hard earned money.

Keith's premium...hahaha. What makes it premium? It is made in Canada, it is a big major mass produced beer. Taste no different then the many other big name beers. Fact it is also called an IPA?? it tastes like neither English IPA style nor the more recent popular American style IPA or west coast IPA that is often made by craft brewery's. Keith's IPA taste more like your basic lager with not much taste in it. There new hop series in an improvement, but not great. Anyways no one should be paying a premium for this beer.

[Yagbod]

$1500 ?!? Thats most of the problem right there. Unless you are buying 7 and a half seats...

Also, of course we are being ripped off.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yeah I got to say if you don't like paying those prices move to a cheaper section. It's not going to get any cheaper than year one but at the same time they will continuously need to justify any price increase (probably making the playoffs) I'll still like to revisit a league wide price comparison at the end of the year.

MLSE has new ownership. Ignoring that seems a touch ignorant. I'll stand with the outlook that the new ownership has everything to prove but to keep using MLSE as a continued reason for change seems naive. Also I suspect that if someone were to pie in the sky buy our TFC they couldn't afford the name and may have to change it, and possibly a stadium. That would be disappointing for me.

[brad]

Yeah I got to say if you don't like paying those prices move to a cheaper section. It's not going to get any cheaper than year one but at the same time they will continuously need to justify any price increase (probably making the playoffs) I'll still like to revisit a league wide price comparison at the end of the year.

I'm curious what pricing will look like for next year. Barring an amazing change of fortunes on the pitch, I can't see how they can increase prices from the current year one pricing without alienating a lot more SSH's

[Leedsoronto]

The $29 seats are good for us, can't say there are any bad seats in the house TBH.

If no seats available or i am working that day then the couch is free for TV games.

Either way you gotta say its addictive watching now as we wait for the first win in a while. I feel it's the game that I miss thru work that will be the 2nd one we win this season !!!!!!

[MartinUtd]

I was a season ticket holder from year 1 -5, year 6 I spent the money on a trip to LA and Seattle and this year...

I feel my $60 for MLSlive was very well spent. Despite the draw, I thoroughly enjoyed watching the game last night ;)

[TOBOR !]

Am I getting value for my money ? well, yes. I stopped going to games and haven't bought any new tat.

Come to think of it I haven't even watched the last few matches on the telly - I just come on the boards - so if I place a value on time spent I'm starting to come out ahead.

[Voodooman]

I think that's unfair. It's not like they haven't tried putting the right people in place and i think they're doing a lt better now that they're owned by Rogers & Bell. the jays are spending money and signing high caliber players. The raptors made the Rudy Gay trade and brought in GM of the year. The leafs just made the playoffs. and we hired a proven MLS executive to run our team for the long haul.

Things haven't fallen as well as everyone would have hoped but those are all positive signs of progression. Something that there never was while the Teachers owned MLSE. Give it time. It'll get better.


The Jays aren't under MLSE.


And to answer the OP, I had a great time socializing with friends going to games, and meeting some people, and jumping around singing chants few years ago was always a blast. So am I getting my money's worth with the soccer....no way, I would rather watch my level games (CSL), which I actually find more exciting, but for the atmosphere of the fans, maybe half as much.

[Carts]

Beer will never be cheap at a Toronto venue - that's something we just have to live with, and make the choice 'buy or not buy'...

Ticket prices are still too high in certain parts of the stadium. You can actually see it by going to Ticketmaster & using the interactive map - there's a few sections that have almost all tickets available. The corps don't mind paying high prices for the middle of the stadium, but the ones just off the middle - way over-priced for the product, the amenities, and it shows in the sales. That is something that should be rectified...

[ManUtd4ever]

It's not about value for the money for me. My seasons tickets cost approximately $200, which is an inconsequential expense, and to put in perspective, is comparable to the cost of attending one Leaf game. My issue is that I have been finding it increasingly difficult to motivate myself to attend games this season, and I would feel the same way even if my seasons tickets were free. I'll get excited about this team again when we are competitive, but until then, it's going to be a real grind.

[Corpand]

I learned long ago not to buy chit from BMO because it always dampens my game-day experience. Very embarrassing how they are still milking the leftover fans (dare I say the true fans, not those who will come back once we start winning) who clearly form the crux of this club and it's fan support.

Cut us some slack, I need to drink because the result on the pitch is so piss poor.

Yet to answer your question, it depends on whaty you're looking for? Good sport? Entertainment? The social element?
I still love this team, get behind whatever players are brought in. I still find it enjoyable because it definitely beats watching on TV. I enjoy watching tactics in motion over the full field.

[spark]

I think a quite a bit of the stadium being more empty than usual had to do with the weather being predicted to be far worse than it was.

I actually didn't think it was more empty than usual, it looked just about the same to me as it has every home game this year. Super empty during warm ups, half empty at kick off, another surge of people around the 20-25 min mark, getting IMO around 16K, then back to kick off numbers in the final minutes.

One weird thing was section ... 222 I think it was, was pretty full. Maybe they've been selling them cheap so Bitchy doesn't fly up there and take a seat unpaid for!

[Daze]

I actually didn't think it was more empty than usual, it looked just about the same to me as it has every home game this year. Super empty during warm ups, half empty at kick off, another surge of people around the 20-25 min mark, getting IMO around 16K, then back to kick off numbers in the final minutes.

One weird thing was section ... 222 I think it was, was pretty full. Maybe they've been selling them cheap so Bitchy doesn't fly up there and take a seat unpaid for!

the FO offers a lot of group packages to youth teams and puts a lot of them there. I think they're might have been 4 youth teams plus the parents there yesterday.

[Daze]

The Jays aren't under MLSE.

We're still owned by the same people.

[Voodooman]

the FO offers a lot of group packages to youth teams and puts a lot of them there. I think they're might have been 4 youth teams plus the parents there yesterday.

Honestly, don't see why more teams don't do this. If they can't fill the seats, just give it to the teams or groups. Can't forget when we hosted under 21(??) world cup in Canada few years ago, and there would be games in a massive stadium like Edmonton's Commonwealth, where it looked like nobody decided to show up to the game. That actually ended up being headlines for other countries.

[brad]

Cost of beer has nothing to do with value for money as a SSH IMHO. The quality of the team is what matters.

If we were the best team in the league, playing exciting, entertaining football, would you still deem your tickets to not be good value because the beer is too expensive?

[fiji_blue]

MLSE needs to lower their profit projectoins to level of thier poor performance (We should get paid to watch)...

[jabbronies]

MLSE needs to lower their profit projectoins to level of thier poor performance (We should get paid to watch)...

MLSE should change their name. I'm thinking MLJE - Maple Leaf Jokes and Entertainment..cos there is nothing sports related happening with them - just jokes. Then maybe we'll see the value in what we are being charged for.

[OgtheDim]

FWIW:

$10 for a tall boy of overpriced Corn Swill (Canadian) at Ivor Wynne (nope didn't).

$8 for a smallish Stella on the second level at the Dome (regretted it as soon as I left the server for my seat).

If you want to drink at BMO, only the Hot chocolate is a good price.

[Wombat]

Honestly, don't see why more teams don't do this. If they can't fill the seats, just give it to the teams or groups. Can't forget when we hosted under 21(??) world cup in Canada few years ago, and there would be games in a massive stadium like Edmonton's Commonwealth, where it looked like nobody decided to show up to the game. That actually ended up being headlines for other countries.

Let's be like the Russians and draft in the Army to make sure we have a ful stadium!

[ag futbol]

Honestly, don't see why more teams don't do this. If they can't fill the seats, just give it to the teams or groups. Can't forget when we hosted under 21(??) world cup in Canada few years ago, and there would be games in a massive stadium like Edmonton's Commonwealth, where it looked like nobody decided to show up to the game. That actually ended up being headlines for other countries.
There have been a few games there, most have been bad but also very poorly operated.

When Canada played one match there for the U-20 group stage the stadium wasn't prepared for the number of walkups they got and as a result people were still waiting in line to get tickets at half time or had simply given up and gone home. Also stories making the rounds that for the most recent friendly against CR the concession stands were slow and poorly operated. But my favorite has to be when we've played there in the name of limiting away fans but they still manage to bring large numbers.

Anyway, what can you say about the CSA other than the way they operate is still a complete gong show.

[Dave67]

FWIW:

$10 for a tall boy of overpriced Corn Swill (Canadian) at Ivor Wynne (nope didn't).

$8 for a smallish Stella on the second level at the Dome (regretted it as soon as I left the server for my seat).

If you want to drink at BMO, only the Hot chocolate is a good price.

If you want to drink at BMO find the BMO booth in the North end (east side usually) and show them your license and sign a pledge not to drink and drive. They give you a free pop voucher* at least they did up until last season, I haven't tried it this year (there might even be a booth in the South end)

[Haddy]

$1500 for seasons tickets annually is pure insanity, especially if you're just as nuts to buy beer in-house! Then again, I don't know how many seats you had. Either way, I wish I could afford that.

Drink before you come, and buy the cheap seats. The stadium is small enough that every seat in the house is great. I've sat in the corner at 119 since day 1 and have never complained about the spot - just the match results!

When my tickets hit $400/seat the past couple years, nearly double the original price, sure I was mad. It was definitely not worth it then. But now I'm back to paying just over $200 for an entire season in the same seat. That's a steal.

To answer the OP, I guess it depends on where you're sitting and how much you are paying. I believe the cheaper seats are very much worth it.

Unconditional love for a sport and/or team is a beautiful - and in this case absolutely nightmarish - thing :scarf:

[Auzzy]

^ I agree Haddy!

Last couple of years were a rip-off frankly. First ransom pack, then partial pack, and otherwise way too much (& too much hassle) for individual seats. Then a pair of medium-gray seasons tickets. I just checked, wow, $750 each/$1500 for the new pair in 2011, I must have been nuts but that's the cheapest I could get. (And frankly, compared to the per-game cost & hassle I had before that, I was actually happy.) I guess the medium-gray renewal was $680 each/$1360 for the pair in 2012, ugly! I can't imagine paying Dark Grey or higher prices for the frequent shit shows.

Now I'm paying about $450 total for a pair of light-grey seasons, still a great view, I can't complain as much. But worrying most of the game about the inevitable last-minute collapse really gets painful.

I agree the concession prices are nuts, and the beer sucks -- but with the crazy TFC schedule, demands with the family & other issues, sometimes I've felt compelled to buy stuff at games. Then despite cold weather being forecast, they often run out of hot chocolate, run out of milk for the tea, take much too long to serve each customer, etc. Especially the general concession stands are very badly organized, and the food is mostly expensive crap. Some of the specialty food stands are decent -- but prices & lineups can be even worse.

So yes, "value for money" isn't given in many situations. However, from watching other MLS games, and checking the stats, I think some people are exaggerating how badly TFC is doing business-wise compared to the rest of the league. E.g., the attendance in NY when LA came to town a few weeks ago was dismal.

Check the numbers, some of this is really surprising. I know the TFC numbers are often bogus, probably they're counting all season tickets sold for example even if those ticket holders aren't showing up at the game. But TFC isn't the only team fudging the numbers -- and from seeing the actual attendance in the stands on TV for various MLS games, even of successful teams, TFC still does surprisingly well. That's both good news & bad news of course: http://mlsattendance.blogspot.ca/

[Abou Sky]

I value my time more than my money as I have so little free time.

Are there days I wished I had done something else? Sure, but for the most part I get to see friends, hang out with my son and enjoy some beers outside screaming like a madman at the top of my lungs.

Is it worth my Saturday afternoon?

Most definitely, I can't think of many things I would rather do and look forward to the next game.

Special thanks to Suds for the tailgates and Ivy for going balls to the wall playing soccer with my 9 year old, in fact playing so hard that he tore a ligament in his ankle.

Cheers to all, can't wait to see you all again.

[Yohan]

It's a problem when a hardcore supporter like myself think I get more value out of watching the game on TV than heading to BMO Field. I missed the game last Sat, because I was going to the women's game on Sun and didn't think I could justify making a trip from Waterloo for TFC game. And I felt justified in making that choice in light of yesterday's result.

[backbeat]

I thought the game Saturday was one of the better ones I watched in a while - hate the last minute equalizer(s) but i love going down to BMO through thick and thin - and I'll tell you it will be sweet when they finally get it together - and for some strange reason i do believe that's where they're heading.....they're my team, no matter what.

[gate7]

The $9 pulled pork sandwich was f'n good.........but i still feel ripped off and wont buy one again.

[gate7]

The early years were great. Stadium was full, atmosphere was great. However today people are bored of watching a borring team play, it is even worse to watch them play on TV. When a good team comes to play Toronto, they look like they actually lower down to Toronto's level of playing making the game even worse. increase tickets sales also killed many fans, many will probably never come back. The strict security rules and regulations also pissed off many Supports in the South End. Many of them left and will also never be back.

Only things that can bring back atmosphere to what it once was is having a winning team for once, low ticket prices, possibly new owners other then MLSE, maybe more friendship between supporter groups and head office/stadium security, or maybe a big renovation of BMO field (some other new MLS stadiums are much nicer), or even by lowering beer prices (very unlikely).


Well said. I agree 100%

[leafsman]

moved from the north at 30 something per game to the south at 10 so i feel like im getting value

[Dave67]

Value is relative. Our light Greys had doubled in price after 5 years so we went out. Won't be back as STH until we can get in decent priced seats. However seeing as 19,000 were in attendance last weekend (lol) I guess we won't be getting tickets any time soon.

[glaze]

I find stadium prices are fairly standard. I don't mind paying 15 for a large premium draft. The same sized draft at the biergarden bar costs almost the same. But 10.50 for a can of keiths is a bit ridiculous. In Detroit at Tigers games they have a "value beer" where you can drink cans of high life or PBR for 5 bucks. The best stadium drinking I've had was regina at a Riders game, where beer, or a mixed cocktail was 5 bucks.
With MLSE owning a near-monopoly on venues, and with Ontario's booze markups, I doubt we'll see cheaper prices. They just don't want the optics of a drunk crowd.
Problem with MLSe is they really don't know how to sell TFC. They're trying to attract a supporter crowd, a family "soccer mom" crowd, and the corporate crowd all at the same time. I imagine many of us have provided them with some creative ideas through direct contact, or surveys and have been ignored. Fact is, TFC, much like the Argos rely on a walk-up crowd, and people paying out of their own pockets, unlike the corporate and high-demand spectacle of leafs games. MLSE is arguably too big to know how to run this team. A more grassroots/community frame of mind needs to be established.
Sadly, these are the discussions one has when the team is consistently not winning. Give us a contender and I am sure the reccurring threads about the BMO experience and attendence will dry up.

[Wagner]

Ticket price....very fair.
with the 2013 reset pricing.

it's what, $9 or $10 per game in the south end?

you can't beat that for entertainment in Toronto.

Beer Price = ridiculous. But what are you going to do?
with the laws and policies in place, they have you by the short ones.
it's microeconomics. do you get utility at that price? Supply is very controlled, demand is somewhat high...etc etc...

[Fort York Redcoat]

Value is relative. Our light Greys had doubled in price after 5 years so we went out. Won't be back as STH until we can get in decent priced seats. However seeing as 19,000 were in attendance last weekend (lol) I guess we won't be getting tickets any time soon.

Truth. But it wasn't for TFC.

[ensco]

Hard to argue with south end pricing.

Tickets elsewhere are mostly 2x what they should be. I have a family of 5, it's $200 minimum for us to see a bad minor league soccer team. I can afford it, but I don't like feeling like a putz.

Guess what? We haven't been as a group in 3 years. Doubt we're going anytime soon.

No biggie. They'll run their business, I'll run my life. But just since someone's asking, the whole thing is moronic, they get their inflated attendance with empty seats by the thousands, and my kids play soccer but are growing up not caring about TFC.

[cmonyoureds]

I used to have 3 partial packs, always bought em every year. Including the ransom packs. Gave them up 2 years ago after we got tired of the incessant price hikes and stupid games the F/O played. The "value" was no longer there for us to attend in person.

I still watch on TV, PVR when I can't see live, and enjoy at least one road trip a year.

Past two years we figured we'd just pick up single seats when we wanted to go to a game. Once you're outside the yellow price point what they charge for walk-ups borders on insanity. If it wasn't for the RPB ticket trader and the good folks here, we wouldn't go to any games.

It's no secret they spent big $ to bring in Liewike (sp?) because the Raps and TFC profits are crumbling. It remains to be seen if he can figure a way to rebuild the relationship with supporters. He should be real worried that the people who supported the team even when they were losing for 5,6,or 7 years, are now leaving in numbers. They've cut the emotional ties to a certain extent, and it's possible even winning won't bring them back to BMO. (or the ACC)

[Rudi]

There have been a few games there, most have been bad but also very poorly operated.

When Canada played one match there for the U-20 group stage the stadium wasn't prepared for the number of walkups they got and as a result people were still waiting in line to get tickets at half time or had simply given up and gone home. Also stories making the rounds that for the most recent friendly against CR the concession stands were slow and poorly operated. But my favorite has to be when we've played there in the name of limiting away fans but they still manage to bring large numbers.

Anyway, what can you say about the CSA other than the way they operate is still a complete gong show.
The CSA doesn't operate Commonwealth Stadium (or any other stadium, for that matter).

There's tons still wrong with the CSA (although things are getting better in a lot of areas there). Stadium operations has not been, and never will be, one of them.

[jloome]

The CSA doesn't operate Commonwealth Stadium (or any other stadium, for that matter).

There's tons still wrong with the CSA (although things are getting better in a lot of areas there). Stadium operations has not been, and never will be, one of them.

True, but it also does nothing to communicate with the people whose responsibility it is. For half of the last dozen friendlies in Edmonton, there have been people who didn't get in until the second half of the game, because ticket interest was underestimated and Commonwealth understaffed. It happens once, you get mad at the idiot making the mistake. It happens twice, you get mad at yourself for not checking on what they'd set up and ensuring something sufficient. It's not hard for the CSA to call up a stadium operator and say "have at least four people and proper credit card machines, or it'll be a disaster." And it has been; on each occasion that tickets were fouled up, attendance was down at the next event. Outside of MLS, soccer still needs good weather and walkup in this country.

[Rudi]

True, but it also does nothing to communicate with the people whose responsibility it is. For half of the last dozen friendlies in Edmonton, there have been people who didn't get in until the second half of the game, because ticket interest was underestimated and Commonwealth understaffed. It happens once, you get mad at the idiot making the mistake. It happens twice, you get mad at yourself for not checking on what they'd set up and ensuring something sufficient. It's not hard for the CSA to call up a stadium operator and say "have at least four people and proper credit card machines, or it'll be a disaster." And it has been; on each occasion that tickets were fouled up, attendance was down at the next event. Outside of MLS, soccer still needs good weather and walkup in this country.
That's a fair point, but who's to say that the CSA hasn't been doing that?

Commonwealth seems to be the only stadium that continually has these problems. While BMO Field has gotten the lion's share of national team games in recent years and could obviously gauge crowds better because of that, I still don't recall hearing about similar problems at BC Place for the women's tournament last year or at that friendly in Moncton.

Also, I've been in the stands for national team games at Stade Saputo and the entry process has been seamless (with lines at the box office moving quickly). It's pretty much the only positive thing I can say about the Stade Saputo experience as a whole.

[Haddy]

I value my time more than my money as I have so little free time.

Are there days I wished I had done something else? Sure, but for the most part I get to see friends, hang out with my son and enjoy some beers outside screaming like a madman at the top of my lungs.

Is it worth my Saturday afternoon?

Most definitely, I can't think of many things I would rather do and look forward to the next game.

Special thanks to Suds for the tailgates and Ivy for going balls to the wall playing soccer with my 9 year old, in fact playing so hard that he tore a ligament in his ankle.

Cheers to all, can't wait to see you all again.

This just might be, in my opinion, one of the best posts I've ever read since before the club was announced as Toronto FC.

For me, it really sums up my years as a SSH. If I hadn't met so many great people during the early years travelling and more importantly in my section, I'm sure I would have bitten the apple and dropped my tickets. But I'm glad I kept the faith and continue to.

Having a pro club is great, but all of us contribute to the entire package. And that's what makes it worth it.

[ag futbol]

The CSA doesn't operate Commonwealth Stadium (or any other stadium, for that matter).

There's tons still wrong with the CSA (although things are getting better in a lot of areas there). Stadium operations has not been, and never will be, one of them.
It's not about the CSA literally operating the stadium, it's about event management. Stadium isn't handled in a one-size fits all manner, it's done at the direction of the organization running the event.

Fair point that they haven't had these issues elsewhere, but then again why continue to go back to a place that has these major problems? Especially ticketing issues, that's like an invitation to lose money. You would think that would only have to happen once to be sorted out thoroughly.

[Prof]

The early years were great. Stadium was full, atmosphere was great. However today people are bored of watching a borring team play, it is even worse to watch them play on TV. When a good team comes to play Toronto, they look like they actually lower down to Toronto's level of playing making the game even worse. increase tickets sales also killed many fans, many will probably never come back. The strict security rules and regulations also pissed off many Supports in the South End. Many of them left and will also never be back.

Only things that can bring back atmosphere to what it once was is having a winning team for once, low ticket prices, possibly new owners other then MLSE, maybe more friendship between supporter groups and head office/stadium security, or maybe a big renovation of BMO field (some other new MLS stadiums are much nicer), or even by lowering beer prices (very unlikely).

Yes the money we pay for our sporting entertainment value is worth it. Go watch a boring NFL, CFL or MBL game and tell me if the $40 avg for an MLS game is worth it. Also, the team is playing the most attractive football they have since the beginning. They still lack the final finishing, which will come.

[bones]

I have felt that the prices are 90% good value so I only watch the first 90% of the game. I don't know what all the fuss about this team is, they're amazing!

;)

[Carts]

I have felt that the prices are 90% good value so I only watch the first 90% of the game. I don't know what all the fuss about this team is, they're amazing!

;)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Ok this made me LOL in the office... Well Played...

[Nestease]

it's what, $9 or $10 per game in the south end?

you can't beat that for entertainment in Toronto.

Oh, well I guess that's settled then. Everyone can just buy tickets in the south end. Problem solved.

[Carts]

Oh, well I guess that's settled then. Everyone can just buy tickets in the south end. Problem solved.

In my mind, DARK GREY are the worst value - and that's exactly where my tickets are...

TFC should have very limited 'Premium Priced Seats' and that should be 123 with Club Access - a significant dip to sections 122 & 124 (West) and lower 107/108...

After that - every ticket in the stadium should be in the range that the majority of the population see them as 'affordable'...

With so many varying factors (some out of the clubs control) having tickets priced as they are will continue to drop the fan base...

The simple fact that the weather can kick your ass - paying $69 per seat is something people will simply say "no thanks" to season seat package ($50ish at SSH prices) - but at say $35 (SSH Price) per ticket per game, a large majority in this city can/will embrace as decent value.... This is even before we get into the product on the field...

123 can be priced to the heavens - as the corps can fill them out. 107-108 / 122 & 124 can be priced 'stupid' as the rich and 'want to be seen' will purchase and actually show up June-July-August when it isn't raining. The rest of the stadium needs to be quite differently priced from those - and they will be filled, most games, most weather conditions, if priced accordingly...

That strategy will keep the "buzz" about it being a 'full' (not 100%) stadium. Keep the concessions going. And keep the entertainment value for those who are there...

Plus, it would give the club leverage to raise ticket prices for 'special occasions' (PLAYOFFS should they ever happen). Right now, if the stadium remained the way it is, the club would have no leverage really to raise prices for playoffs - there's no guarantee they'd fill it, in winter...

The type of decisions / pricing are fine balance - you have to find that 'perfect zone' of cheap enough to attract, not too cheap to detract your value... The year-1 pricing was an excellent idea, but the next step is lowering the 'mid-level' tickets...

Keep the corp seats jacked - in fact they could even raise the SS seats a touch (you'll all kill me for saying that, but at $9-$10 a game it's less than a movie), and trim down the mid-level - to ensure their number-1 marketing point (that being atmosphere and game-day experience) remains there to market...

[Abou Sky]

If you want to talk just ticket prices, Imo all 200s should be $12-$15 walk up and don't even sell seasons there.

Tops of corners should be the same. Then keep everything other than South Side, 107/108 & clubs $25-$35 walk up, 30% discount for seasons.

South Side really should be a couple bucks more for the season, I mean seriously, is $14 game /$20 face really excessive?

Beer prices are fine, food prices are a bit much.

Anyway, looks like with this kind of performance I may just get my tix in 110-114 next year, yes, I have already decided that I am renewing.

[Justin10000]

I can't complain about spending $219 for a seat in 119. Good view, the section is pretty quiet, but at least the spectators stand.
On the issue of Beer, the Budweiser big rig has been pretty good so far. $5 cans up until the first hour before kick-off is not a bad deal, and Joe's have $5 cans. You do not have to drink while watching the matches.

[Canary10]

In my mind, DARK GREY are the worst value - and that's exactly where my tickets are...

TFC should have very limited 'Premium Priced Seats' and that should be 123 with Club Access - a significant dip to sections 122 & 124 (West) and lower 107/108...

After that - every ticket in the stadium should be in the range that the majority of the population see them as 'affordable'...

With so many varying factors (some out of the clubs control) having tickets priced as they are will continue to drop the fan base...

The simple fact that the weather can kick your ass - paying $69 per seat is something people will simply say "no thanks" to season seat package ($50ish at SSH prices) - but at say $35 (SSH Price) per ticket per game, a large majority in this city can/will embrace as decent value.... This is even before we get into the product on the field...

123 can be priced to the heavens - as the corps can fill them out. 107-108 / 122 & 124 can be priced 'stupid' as the rich and 'want to be seen' will purchase and actually show up June-July-August when it isn't raining. The rest of the stadium needs to be quite differently priced from those - and they will be filled, most games, most weather conditions, if priced accordingly...

That strategy will keep the "buzz" about it being a 'full' (not 100%) stadium. Keep the concessions going. And keep the entertainment value for those who are there...

Plus, it would give the club leverage to raise ticket prices for 'special occasions' (PLAYOFFS should they ever happen). Right now, if the stadium remained the way it is, the club would have no leverage really to raise prices for playoffs - there's no guarantee they'd fill it, in winter...

The type of decisions / pricing are fine balance - you have to find that 'perfect zone' of cheap enough to attract, not too cheap to detract your value... The year-1 pricing was an excellent idea, but the next step is lowering the 'mid-level' tickets...

Keep the corp seats jacked - in fact they could even raise the SS seats a touch (you'll all kill me for saying that, but at $9-$10 a game it's less than a movie), and trim down the mid-level - to ensure their number-1 marketing point (that being atmosphere and game-day experience) remains there to market...

Yeah, totally agree with you there. And that's where mine are too. A lot of other people must agree also, because I essentially have my entire row to myself game in and game out. No one is buying those tickets.

[Prof]

Yeah take your family of 5 and go and watch a Raptor or Leaf game. You might find a parking spot. The value is there if you compare.


Hard to argue with south end pricing.

Tickets elsewhere are mostly 2x what they should be. I have a family of 5, it's $200 minimum for us to see a bad minor league soccer team. I can afford it, but I don't like feeling like a putz.

Guess what? We haven't been as a group in 3 years. Doubt we're going anytime soon.

No biggie. They'll run their business, I'll run my life. But just since someone's asking, the whole thing is moronic, they get their inflated attendance with empty seats by the thousands, and my kids play soccer but are growing up not caring about TFC.

[ensco]

Yeah take your family of 5 and go and watch a Raptor or Leaf game. You might find a parking spot. The value is there if you compare.

Seriously?

That's a comparison that has the whole professional sports business in trouble on game attendance.

They are benchmarking off a corporate dinner that costs $200-300. But I can take my family out for a nice meal, or go to the movies, for $75-100. Without a 50% chance that I'll freeze, or boil, or face a midge invasion.

[cmonyoureds]

Yeah take your family of 5 and go and watch a Raptor or Leaf game. You might find a parking spot. The value is there if you compare.


In terms of a Raps game, attendance the past few season's would argue there's no-one finding value there either.

[ag futbol]

That's a comparison that has the whole professional sports business in trouble on game attendance.

Couldn't agree more.

[ensco]

^If Leiweke's number one priority is next year's SSH sales (or put more precisely, TFC's relationship with the ticket-buying public), he needs to take this on ASAP. Most of the people here are grandfathered into $10 seats and don't care enough about this.

Years are going by, while thousands of people stay home. Those people would go if the seat prices were reasonable, by an objective standard (ie not the Leafs)

Leiweke spinning stories about how Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are imminent signings, is actually not a good sign.

[ag futbol]

^ Agreed.

It's way too early in the game to use ticket price increases as a way to increase profit for TFC. They should be thinking mega long term and trying to bring in as many people as possible to the stadium.

The untapped portion of the soccer market in this city is astronomical. If this was run right and priced properly, we could draw seattle like numbers to every game. Maybe that's just me extrapolating, but I honestly believe that's the potential, and it could be even bigger than that long run. We could talk about a new world class stadium instead of BMO 15-20 years out.

[Canary10]

There are a ton of people who are big football fans to whom TFC is a complete joke, not just for how bad we've been but how bad the football has been at times throughout as well. TFC needs to find a way to get that crowd interested and back to BMO. Ticket pricing is definitely part of the picture, but they also have to be sold on them playing decent football. That's a bit harder of a job.

[ManUtd4ever]

There are a ton of people who are big football fans to whom TFC is a complete joke, not just for how bad we've been but how bad the football has been at times throughout as well. TFC needs to find a way to get that crowd interested and back to BMO. Ticket pricing is definitely part of the picture, but they also have to be sold on them playing decent football. That's a bit harder of a job.

Agreed. The ticket pricing issue is entirely overblown (based on this year's pricing model) in comparison to the actual product on the pitch. If TFC continues on it's current trajectory this season, there will come a point later in the season wherein a disturbing number of fans will once again decide to forego attending games which they've already paid for in advance, and can't give away the tickets for free either.

[ensco]

There are a ton of people who are big football fans to whom TFC is a complete joke, not just for how bad we've been but how bad the football has been at times throughout as well. TFC needs to find a way to get that crowd interested and back to BMO. Ticket pricing is definitely part of the picture, but they also have to be sold on them playing decent football. That's a bit harder of a job.

It's too late for that. I believe that most casual fans won't just come back quickly if TFC start playing better. I think it will take years. I don't think the team can play well for long enough to ever get things back to where they were in, say, 2008, in terms of demand and the price level.

Beirne et al have believed that they would come back lickety-split, and it was true for the first 3-4 years, but it's wrong now. I don't think a better product gets them back quickly. But they're trapped - acknowledge that, and you may as well put a "fire me" sign on your office door.

The casual fan base has been burned badly. They have been abused and insulted (they bore the brunt of the ransom-packs, for instance), and they aren't invested in the team the way we here all are.

The supporters, who are part of the "brand" (ie the marketing) of the team, and pay only a fraction of the cost, are fine.

NYRB have this problem in spades btw. Prices are way too high. Reported attendance is a joke. And they have Henry and a good team!

[Canary10]

It's too late for that. I believe that most casual fans won't just come back quickly if TFC start playing better. I think it will take years. I don't think the team can play well for long enough to ever get things back to where they were in, say, 2008, in terms of demand and the price level.

Beirne et al have believed that they would come back lickety-split, and it was true for the first 3-4 years, but it's wrong now. I don't think a better product gets them back quickly. But they're trapped - acknowledge that, and you may as well put a "fire me" sign on your office door.

The casual fan base has been burned badly. They have been abused and insulted (they bore the brunt of the ransom-packs, for instance), and they aren't invested in the team the way we here all are.

The supporters, who are part of the "brand" (ie the marketing) of the team, and pay only a fraction of the cost, are fine.

NYRB have this problem in spades btw. Prices are way too high. Reported attendance is a joke. And they have Henry and a good team!

I'm talking about people who are football fans, have maybe gone to one game and never gone back because the football is shit. By shit I mean poor quality football, not where we are in the standings. They have to be convinced there is some quality in this league or they'll just watch EPL games on Saturdays. I can't give my tickets away to my own soccer team because everyone hates the quality. If football fans won't even go, who will?

[Fort York Redcoat]

I agree ensco. There are those that would recognize improvement that would return but they number in the hundreds, if that. Most will return only for a playoff run and then the following year...perhaps.


Canary I think your target football fans would take a lot longer to come back. Even if they did hear the team was playing better I'd reckon they'd let the team qualify for something and prove their quality because its the quality that has to sell them over and above and PAST the league which many feel wanting.

[ensco]

I'm talking about people who are football fans, have maybe gone to one game and never gone back because the football is shit. By shit I mean poor quality football, not where we are in the standings. They have to be convinced there is some quality in this league or they'll just watch EPL games on Saturdays. I can't give my tickets away to my own soccer team because everyone hates the quality. If football fans won't even go, who will?

This market will never come imho. These are just different markets. We are a minor league team. Big Champions League games draw 20x what TFC does on TV.

In LA, there was no bounce in attendance at USC or UCLA football games when the Raiders left.

[Canary10]

This market will never come imho. These are just different markets. We are a minor league team. Big Champions League games draw 20x what TFC does on TV.

In LA, there was no bounce in attendance at USC or UCLA football games when the Raiders left.

Yeah fair enough. I understand now what market you are talking about and agree with you on that.

[Abou Sky]

I'm talking about people who are football fans, have maybe gone to one game and never gone back because the football is shit. By shit I mean poor quality football, not where we are in the standings. They have to be convinced there is some quality in this league or they'll just watch EPL games on Saturdays. I can't give my tickets away to my own soccer team because everyone hates the quality. If football fans won't even go, who will?

Just met a guy yesterday at my son's soccer who is from Argentina and I mentioned Laba, he had never heard of him and it came out that he doesn't watch MLS at all because he had been to a couple of TFC games and they were garbage, I asked what he followed and he said 'everything but MLS' (which I am sure isn't true but you get the point.)

I don't know how many dads I know at soccer who said 'I had seasons for a few years but the soccer was so poor I stopped going'

When people like those that frequent the boards are jumping ship, that is the final nail in the coffin, they need the regular 'fans' back, not supporters, MLS has a few VERY good teams, SKC are a real pleasure to watch, RSL, NYRB, SJ etc are all quite enjoyable. Why do you think that SKC sells out their stadium every week? It isn't because they hoof the ball up to a big guy to put it in, they play very nice football AND win.

I see people post on facebook 'free TFC tickets' pretty regularly and they don't get taken up. People don't want to spend their time on TFC anymore.

I will continue to go and support and have fun but we need 'the average joe' to go and watch, and 'the average joe' knows more about football than people give him credit for.

[ag futbol]

This market will never come imho. These are just different markets. We are a minor league team. Big Champions League games draw 20x what TFC does on TV.
All comes back to product access IMO.

If they want TV dollars, they need a wide market of people to be interested. They want that wide market of people, they need to set ticket prices at a very affordable level to bring in as large of an audience as possible. Not only that, they need to commit to price stability. The way they've handled that side of things has been absolutely insane.

The path they are heading down right now, TFC will be *at best* a team that sells out and commands high ticket prices but never really appeals to anyone outside of it's niche of fans.

[ensco]

I don't really care much what they do anymore. It's their business.

I'm not a south end guy, and I'm not interested in paying what they're asking for OK seats.

I'm just noticing the connection between the unwillingness to admit defeat on the pricing front, and the pointless signing of players like Frings (or whoever the 2013 version of that will be) for a team in our circumstances.

[brad]

There are a ton of people who are big football fans to whom TFC is a complete joke, not just for how bad we've been but how bad the football has been at times throughout as well. TFC needs to find a way to get that crowd interested and back to BMO. Ticket pricing is definitely part of the picture, but they also have to be sold on them playing decent football. That's a bit harder of a job.

I actually think a lot of those folks would be able to stomach the bad record if the football was better. Lots of those folks have grown up watching losing teams and don't have the sense of entitlement a lot of TFC fans do.

On the football - I have family from the UK that grew up watching dreadful quality lower division stuff in the UK in the 60's and 70's, and they can't stomach how bad TFC are (and have been). Not exactly a high bar they are measuring against.

[brad]

I'm talking about people who are football fans, have maybe gone to one game and never gone back because the football is shit. By shit I mean poor quality football, not where we are in the standings. They have to be convinced there is some quality in this league or they'll just watch EPL games on Saturdays. I can't give my tickets away to my own soccer team because everyone hates the quality. If football fans won't even go, who will?

Man forget the EPL - I can't convince my uncle who watched Birmingahm City in the 60's to go back. He couldn't believe TFC were actually getting paid to play they were so bad. Basic fundamentals just not there.

[brad]

The other big problem is that the constant revolving door of players means there is no one for people to really build associations or attachments to. I know several people that have cited that as their reason for losing interest. In the first few years, we were bad but had some generally likeable players that stuck around for a least a little while.

[Prof]

I'm talking about people who are football fans, have maybe gone to one game and never gone back because the football is shit. By shit I mean poor quality football, not where we are in the standings. They have to be convinced there is some quality in this league or they'll just watch EPL games on Saturdays. I can't give my tickets away to my own soccer team because everyone hates the quality. If football fans won't even go, who will?
That is sooo sad. Are they really football fans then? Would they take Leaf, Raptor or Blue Jay tickets who other than the leafs this year have been crap longer.

[Abou Sky]

Through my life I must have turned down near 100 blue jays tix, probably a dozen Raptors tix and one pair of leafs tix.

My time is more important than my money, I don't have much of it and I am not going to waste it.

[Wombat]

I actually think a lot of those folks would be able to stomach the bad record if the football was better. Lots of those folks have grown up watching losing teams and don't have the sense of entitlement a lot of TFC fans do.


Most teams are losing teams, unless you grew up a Man Utd or Liverpool fan. That's what makes football fans so special... it takes fortitude, passion and loyalty to go to the game every week, risking rain, hard core UK football hooligans back in the 70's & 80's, and paying your hard earned money from working on a trawler, factory floor or down a coal mine.

I watched my home team Leicester City for 25 years, home & away with a dozen mates - travelling up to places like Blackburn on a wet Tuesday night to stand on crumbling terraces with 400-500 other hardy souls, and have a three hour drive home after a 3-0 defeat is what I mean by the fortitude / passion / loyalty of a true fan.

TFC could have developed a dynasty - the passion is there embodied by the RPB, and the fan-base of soccer fans in Toronto's four million population is there, but they failed to build on the potential of the first 2-3 years and many people like me, who really wanted to attach themselves to this new franchise drifted away, based on poor value for money and seeing journeymen 4th rate players who can't control a football or make a telling forward pass.


Football fans will persevere with a losing team if they see players they love & associate with, giving 100% on the pitch, and the club they support making them feel valued & appreciated - TFC can learn for the lower league British teams who have a rock-solid hardcore fan base.

I think that's why most neutrals were happy to see Wigan beat Man City for the FA Cup this year. It can't be easy being a Wigan fan stuck between Manchester & Liverpool, but these are the true fans!

[cmonyoureds]

It's too late for that. I believe that most casual fans won't just come back quickly if TFC start playing better. I think it will take years. I don't think the team can play well for long enough to ever get things back to where they were in, say, 2008, in terms of demand and the price level.

Beirne et al have believed that they would come back lickety-split, and it was true for the first 3-4 years, but it's wrong now. I don't think a better product gets them back quickly. But they're trapped - acknowledge that, and you may as well put a "fire me" sign on your office door.

The casual fan base has been burned badly. They have been abused and insulted (they bore the brunt of the ransom-packs, for instance), and they aren't invested in the team the way we here all are.

The supporters, who are part of the "brand" (ie the marketing) of the team, and pay only a fraction of the cost, are fine.

NYRB have this problem in spades btw. Prices are way too high. Reported attendance is a joke. And they have Henry and a good team!

One of the best posts I've seen on the state of the union at TFC. ^^^^^

I would also add that there is also a "non-casual" portion of the fan base that has been burned badly by the F/O and won't be coming back to BMO as full time ticket holders. I include myself and several others I know in this group. We buy the odd game now from ticket trader, after consulting the schedule and weather forecast. Oh, I still watch every game and follow the roster moves. I'll probably end up paying over the odds for tix should this team ever make playoffs or a cup final, but in the long run the owners are getting significantly less $ from me than the first 6 years.

[Masked Man]

The other big problem is that the constant revolving door of players means there is no one for people to really build associations or attachments to. I know several people that have cited that as their reason for losing interest. In the first few years, we were bad but had some generally likeable players that stuck around for a least a little while.

The turnover rate that TFC has been on is just insanity. It's very valid reason in my opinion. You don't really feel a connection with any of the players because by next season the roster will be different. TFC needs an era of competitiveness & all the good things that come with it. The competition, the mainstay players that embody the franchise & become folk heroes so that fans feel that connection.

With MLSE though who really knows if TFC will ever get there. They're like King Midas, except that instead of turning everything into gold, they turn it into something else.....