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View Full Version : You play owner. Where would you splurge? Proven Quality Coach World Class player.



Dave67
05-23-2013, 12:45 PM
Spawned from the new NYCFC thread news. It's pure daydream stuff for now, but what the hell.

I don't believe TFC will ever be a successful club without either top quality proven coaching OR a world class, household name star player. This current model of low quality coaching and middle tier star players does not seem to work for TFC. Dero, Deguzman, Frings, Guevara, Koevermans etc.. have never been able to put this team over the top.

So if you owned TFC and you could splurge in only one place would it be on a coach or on a player? If you say player then you have to at least believe that Toronto has a snowballs chance of hell in ever getting a household name brand world class player.

With a second team in NY I don't see Toronto ever getting that household name brand player. RedBull will still own a team and they have serious cash. It's not like a second NY team will make RedBull roll over and die. So with LA and two NY teams being the likely dream destination for any world class player I don't think Toronto will ever get one.

For that reason I vote for a coach. Push out the boat and try and get a Sigi Schmid pedigreed coach. Sure guys like Schmid are rare, but I think Toronto has a better chance of grabbing a quality coach then they do an elite player.

Initial B
05-23-2013, 08:33 PM
I can't vote in this. I don't think either a world class player OR world class coach would help a team where the majority of the players are 2-divisions in quality lower than the teams they are playing against. Are there further parameters, such as player quality level, that we are to assume when we vote?

prizby
05-23-2013, 10:51 PM
neither; academy, and academy coaches

Shakes McQueen
05-23-2013, 10:58 PM
I mean, if it's a GUARANTEED world class player, or a GUARANTEED world class coach, I take the coach. It's been demonstrated that MLS teams can have success without needing a team of absolute world-beaters. On the other hand, it's also been demonstrated that having a big name in your lineup doesn't guarantee anything.

Of course, the real question is if that "pedigree" coach is just a guy who is actually talented, and can adapt to the confines of managing in MLS -- or if he's a guy who was fortunate enough to get plum gigs, but can't work with a roster that isn't A1 First Rate through and through.

- Scott

TFC07
05-23-2013, 11:04 PM
Why not both? Why not sign best players and coach? But if I had to pick one, then I would say player.

Remember this:

Toronto could have signed Nesta (big name player) last year (he wanted to sign with TFC and wouldn't cost a DP slot either), but Mariner and Co decided to go after Olof Mellberg who agreed to come to Toronto, but MLS blocked signing. Also, Michael Ballack was rumoured come to Toronto to join with Frings (another big name player). Of course, Del Piero wanted to come to MLS and there was rumours that Toronto was one of teams he was open to signing with. But in the end, he end up signing in Australia.

Point is: Toronto isn't a bad place for famous players to come to play. History has shown that! (Remember Eusebio playing for Toronto?)

Now with Tim Leiweke running MLSE, except TFC to make a big splash in the near future.

As for a manager, I am assuming you're referring to a manager with North American winning experience. If that is the case, then that's going to be harder to get one because there isn't many of them out there.

Brooker
05-24-2013, 03:01 AM
Tony Pulis or Robert Huth. Decisions, decisions.

Oldtimer
05-24-2013, 05:57 AM
You act as if we have a choice. This is delusional. No proven coach would come here... only expecting to be fired in a year when there are not "immediate" results. Even if you rolled out the Brinks truck with millions you would never get Bruce Arena or Sigi Schmidt.

Our only choice is to choose the best of the unproven coaches out there.

Oldtimer
05-24-2013, 05:59 AM
I can't vote in this. I don't think either a world class player OR world class coach would help a team where the majority of the players are 2-divisions in quality lower than the teams they are playing against. Are there further parameters, such as player quality level, that we are to assume when we vote?

Excellent point. People wanting immediate results pick a scapegoat and blame everything on that.

People need to relax and expect zero this year.

OgtheDim
05-24-2013, 06:03 AM
"You play owner.."

There's your problem. And, I'd argue, one of the biggest problems supporter discussions have these days.

This isn't Football Manager or Hattrick or FIFA or any of the other simulation games that most of us have played. Running a REAL football team is far more complex and far less straightforward. You don't make one decision in isolation of everything else that is going on.

Sure, we can speculate.

But these "do this or this and it will fix things" discussions are simplistic and underestimate the reality of what it takes to pull a team around from where we were just 5 months ago.

brad
05-24-2013, 07:39 AM
Neither is going to happen - a coach with pedigree won't come as explained above and there has never been a world class player in the MLS (my definition of World Class is a player who is currently one of the best players in the world in his position and would walk into the starting 11 of virtually any team in the world. MLS has never had anyone that fits the currently bit)

That said - if we were magically given the choice of one or the other, coach for sure.

A single player can only do so much. Drop even Messi or Ronaldo into a bad team like us, and they can only do so much. Sure they'd win us some games with individual brilliance, but I suspect we would still suck. World Class players tend to be World Class because they are surrounded by high quality teammates that allow them to excel.

Sign Falcao? Great - lets see how he does in front our fantastic midfield that carves out so many chances. How about Xavi? I wonder how we'd do with him feeding balls into Weedman or Braun. On a tangent, I wonder how many people would be complaining that we signed a 33 year old if we announced Xavi as a DP :)

Also - put a quality player out with poor coach, and you are not going to see them utilized properly

The reason I choose coach is because they can actually shape the team in a way that could provide us with success over a sustained period. Of course, our proven coach would get sacked after a season...

Dave67
05-24-2013, 09:33 AM
You act as if we have a choice. This is delusional. No proven coach would come here... only expecting to be fired in a year when there are not "immediate" results. Even if you rolled out the Brinks truck with millions you would never get Bruce Arena or Sigi Schmidt.

Our only choice is to choose the best of the unproven coaches out there.

Hold on. I'm not acting as anything. I'm putting out a hypothetical question of you being the owner of TFC, and what would you do.

I've stated an opinion that with a second New York club there is a lower chance that Toronto will ever sign a true household name world class player. LA and NY1, NY2 are the logical landing points of any real household name star player.

Since I believe we are cast off to a land of second tier star players I think we need to go after far more qualified coaches. I said a pedigree, not a world class coach, maybe I chose a poor word. I'm not talking Mourinho here. I'm talking about handing the keys and a big cheque to a qualified coach with a track record.

The club went after Payne, so they clearly believe in better quality leadership. I think the next logical move is to go after a solid, qualified, winning coach. Someone with some level of pedigree.

I'm not going after scapegoats, I don't think I ever have, so don't hang that shit on me. I'm stating something that to me is clear as crystal. NY1, NY2, LA will make the playoffs more than they don't and they will bring in star players to do it. Toronto's best logical move is to search far and wide for a true coach. If I owned the club it's what I would do.

Dave67
05-24-2013, 09:46 AM
I mean, if it's a GUARANTEED world class player, or a GUARANTEED world class coach, I take the coach. It's been demonstrated that MLS teams can have success without needing a team of absolute world-beaters. On the other hand, it's also been demonstrated that having a big name in your lineup doesn't guarantee anything.

Of course, the real question is if that "pedigree" coach is just a guy who is actually talented, and can adapt to the confines of managing in MLS -- or if he's a guy who was fortunate enough to get plum gigs, but can't work with a roster that isn't A1 First Rate through and through.

- Scott

I'm with you.

Dave67
05-24-2013, 09:49 AM
neither; academy, and academy coaches

I love the sentiment, but I can't see this club ever moving on to be a contender with academy players and academy coaches. I think the academy building and supplying a stock of 2 or 3 strong bench players, maybe a starter or two would be amazing, but I can't ever see the whole club being run off of the academy.

Dave67
05-24-2013, 09:50 AM
"You play owner.."

There's your problem. And, I'd argue, one of the biggest problems supporter discussions have these days.

This isn't Football Manager or Hattrick or FIFA or any of the other simulation games that most of us have played. Running a REAL football team is far more complex and far less straightforward. You don't make one decision in isolation of everything else that is going on.

Sure, we can speculate.

But these "do this or this and it will fix things" discussions are simplistic and underestimate the reality of what it takes to pull a team around from where we were just 5 months ago.

That's what I'm asking, speculate. Hell, cross over the two worlds, reality and speculation. I've stated things I believe are true and I've thrown in my guess as to how to fix them. I've never played a football manager game in my life.

trane
05-24-2013, 09:52 AM
Coach. It is a team game. A coach in this sport can do wonders.

Oldtimer
05-24-2013, 10:06 AM
The club went after Payne, so they clearly believe in better quality leadership. I think the next logical move is to go after a solid, qualified, winning coach. Someone with some level of pedigree.



Again, let me pose it as a question: What indication do you have (public statements, rumours, anything) that any successful coach has even considered TFC in the last few years? Name me one name of someone who has been successful within MLS (because foreign coaches have usually failed) would even consider TFC? Preki was the only coach we ever had with an MLS pedigree, and we're going back several years now.

There were many such rumours the first 3 years. That ship has now sailed. The TFC brand is so damaged, you'd have to be certifiably insane to take the job if you have other options... and a good pedigreed MLS coach always has options. So we're stuck with rookie coaches, and as far as rookie coaches, Nelsen (despite his lack of badges... I have more badges than he does) is as good as any.

So name me the coach and then I'll start considering if its a good move. Hypothetical excellent coaches theoretically lining up to take the job means nothing.

There's always good players, however, who will sell themselves out to a struggling club like TFC. Getting them to care about actually trying hard to win is another thing, however. That's Payne's current challenge. Finding good players who actually care to make TFC a winning team. Find that and the wins will start coming. Changing the coach at this point would not solve anything.

Haddy
05-24-2013, 10:29 AM
Is there an option 3?

I don't need a world-beater. I'd prefer a strong organization through and through. A solid coach with a solid team, supplemented by a strong academy slowly trickling in players that excel.

One or two amazing individuals, surrounded by pylons, won't do a darn thing. You might score 1 or 2, but you'll concede 5.

Pipe dream? Maybe. But it shouldn't be.

Canary10
05-24-2013, 10:34 AM
I would start by defining a philosophy of how the team will play. One that, you know, we actually stick to. Players and managers are interchangeable when the team has an established playing style.

Oldtimer
05-24-2013, 10:35 AM
What other MLS Club had a terrible record and no credibility in 2007... and was the laughing-stock of MLS? RSL. So they went with both a GM and a coach (Jason Kreis) with absolutely zero experience. When asked why he chose Kreis as coach, owner David Checketts said that he was impressed by Kreis' "character" (interestingly enough, the same thing that Nelsen impresses people with). During 2007 players were constantly coming and going as the club rebuilt. The record was terrible, by the end of 2007 RSL had only 6 wins. People said the same thing about Checketts that people are saying about TFC now, and there was zero indication that the club would ever budge from last place.

Two years later, RSL won the MLS Cup.

So patience is what is needed. We've already tried changing coaches every year. We've tried foreign coaches. We've tried an experienced MLS coach. Some time the changing needs to stop.

OgtheDim
05-24-2013, 10:38 AM
That's what I'm asking, speculate. Hell, cross over the two worlds, reality and speculation. I've stated things I believe are true and I've thrown in my guess as to how to fix them. I've never played a football manager game in my life.

I reject the whole premise as you've created an artificial construct, leading to discussion points that have nothing to do with the reality that is TFC.

Those two things can not be discussed in isolation of everything else that is going on. And that's an example of the problem with many supporter discussions - over simplistic solution based thinking.


"If we only had....." solutions don't work.

T-boy
05-24-2013, 10:39 AM
Well said Oldtimer!

Canary10
05-24-2013, 10:45 AM
I do wonder, if we had stuck with the plan that Aron Winter was trying to implement, where might we be now? We may have lined up Caleb Porter to take over instead of Paul Mariner, who was the antithesis of everything Winter set out to do. Things could be looking different if we weren't changing our so-called playing style every six months.

Canary10
05-24-2013, 10:50 AM
Getting past the playing style thing, I'd be doing what TFC is doing now. I'd be trying to put in place a core of strong central midfielders (as Laba appears to be). Games are won and lost in the central mid as we all know. And a core of solid centre halves. You have both of those in place, and you'll have a solid team. They're obviously still looking for some of those pieces, and the right combination of guys, but they have exactly the right focus. Keep doing that.

tfcocd
05-24-2013, 12:38 PM
Getting past the playing style thing, I'd be doing what TFC is doing now. I'd be trying to put in place a core of strong central midfielders (as Laba appears to be). Games are won and lost in the central mid as we all know. And a core of solid centre halves. You have both of those in place, and you'll have a solid team. They're obviously still looking for some of those pieces, and the right combination of guys, but they have exactly the right focus. Keep doing that.

Once there is an established spine for the club with depth that mixes veteran experience, and young DP level talent the team can then turn its focus on upgrading the other key areas and results should follow. I think this sentiment has been here for a while on the board and it would be nice to see it followed through by the club and hopefully that is what sets the stage for sustainable success.

Thomas
05-24-2013, 02:02 PM
I don't think it is an either or thing. It should be some combination (to varying degrees) of the two. World class or household name doesn't guarantee anything. In MLS, the sum of the parts and getting everyone to click is critical.

Dave67
05-24-2013, 02:18 PM
Never mind. I think I've created one thread here in two years. Apparently the group is so numb they can't dream anymore. The thread is clearly stated as being hypothetical. Agitation about reality in a hypothetical thread is nuts. The announcement of a second NY team is what drew me in to post in the first place.

Thanks to OLDTIMER for quickly and thoroughly derailing the thread. I never said anything at all about the current coach or anything to do with the past 7 years. I said that with the league setup in 2015 Toronto is going to have a hard time grabbing household name players for an opinion that I have already listed. For that reason if I owned this team I'd start searching for some coaches with at least a history of success in coaching somewhere.

When you've lost the ability to even dream why enter a thread about HYPOTHETICAL questions?

Back to lurking.

Oldtimer
05-24-2013, 02:31 PM
Never mind. I think I've created one thread here in two years. Apparently the group is so numb they can't dream anymore. The thread is clearly stated as being hypothetical. Agitation about reality in a hypothetical thread is nuts. The announcement of a second NY team is what drew me in to post in the first place.

Thanks to OLDTIMER for quickly and thoroughly derailing the thread. I never said anything at all about the current coach or anything to do with the past 7 years. I said that with the league setup in 2015 Toronto is going to have a hard time grabbing household name players for an opinion that I have already listed. For that reason if I owned this team I'd start searching for some coaches with at least a history of success in coaching somewhere.

When you've lost the ability to even dream why enter a thread about HYPOTHETICAL questions?

Back to lurking.

My bad, I thought with a poll and everything you wanted opinions instead of daydreams. It's OK. If you're speaking only theoretically, I dream that with Koevs back, those ties and one-goal losses will turn into wins, TFC will now go on a tear and win the MLS Cup. Anything can happen, at least theoretically.

Anyway, if you would asked for opinions, you got them. Football is, if nothing else, a game of opinions. Apparently (as of right now) 75% of those voting in your poll would prefer a big-name player. If you are going to put your opinion out there, not everyone will agree with you (although some will). As long as everyone is nice to each other, we love to have a good discussion.

Yohan
05-24-2013, 02:36 PM
if we are to dream, i would like a hot big titted girl who makes a mean pot roast please

trane
05-24-2013, 04:21 PM
Without a good coach to make the team work around a great player, the team will never be successful.

Haddy
05-24-2013, 07:21 PM
if we are to dream, i would like a hot big titted girl who makes a mean pot roast please

Hell.....I'd even just take the pot roast!

Dave67, it's a great idea. I'll admit I took it too seriously.

So to indulge you...I'd take a player. My favourite memories at BMO involve great players, not coaches. I saw Raul and Ronaldo score for Real, in what was Xabi Alonso's first-ever match with RM (his signing was announced a day before). I saw Benfica and David Luiz beat Celtic. I don't pay money to stare at the bench. There's nothing like being able to say "I saw that guy play." And to have a top player on TFC, that's something I'd love to brag about.

Ivy
05-24-2013, 11:04 PM
Hell.....I'd even just take the pot roast!

Dave67, it's a great idea. I'll admit I took it too seriously.

So to indulge you...I'd take a player. My favourite memories at BMO involve great players, not coaches. I saw Raul and Ronaldo score for Real, in what was Xabi Alonso's first-ever match with RM (his signing was announced a day before). I saw Benfica and David Luiz beat Celtic. I don't pay money to stare at the bench. There's nothing like being able to say "I saw that guy play." And to have a top player on TFC, that's something I'd love to brag about.
You'd be happy with Raul and Ronaldo in a TFC jersey while the team is not winning any games? sure I'd like to see it for 1,2,3 maybe 4 games, but after that those guys become TFC junk just like the rest of them...
but if you're going to play this imagination game, at least be somewhat realistic... no MLS team is going to fork out 10 million bucks a year for a player, I dont care which coast theyre on.

Initial B
05-25-2013, 09:33 AM
I'd take the Coach first, as perhaps he could work magic with whatever he has. It's up to him to chose the world-class player he needs to fit into his playing style, hopefully one that the marketing guys can salivate over in order to get bums in the seats and raise the volume level at BMO field. Hopefully that will energize the players who will play better for a home crowd that seems to care again, leading to increased volume at future games and a positive feedback loop that ends with TFC winning the MLS/CCL cups and the collective volume level blowing out all our eardrums after singing the Dichio song.

Haddy
05-25-2013, 09:32 PM
You'd be happy with Raul and Ronaldo in a TFC jersey while the team is not winning any games? sure I'd like to see it for 1,2,3 maybe 4 games, but after that those guys become TFC junk just like the rest of them...
but if you're going to play this imagination game, at least be somewhat realistic... no MLS team is going to fork out 10 million bucks a year for a player, I dont care which coast theyre on.

The players I mentioned are from fond memories. But yes, if I was to take a player and didn't care about the cash then I would go nuts with a purchase.

For the record, my realistic answer is earlier in the thread.

prizby
05-26-2013, 12:27 AM
I love the sentiment, but I can't see this club ever moving on to be a contender with academy players and academy coaches. I think the academy building and supplying a stock of 2 or 3 strong bench players, maybe a starter or two would be amazing, but I can't ever see the whole club being run off of the academy.

barcelona do it; ajax do it; atletic bilbao do it; chivas guadalaraja do it; crewe do it; you can litter your team with academy players; lots of talented players in ontario and canada; an academy with proper scouts and coaches would help develop these players.

JavierMartini
05-26-2013, 06:06 AM
I get an am playmaker like guevara. get vitti back play ashtone morgan up the flanks with kooves.

v00d00daddy
05-26-2013, 06:59 AM
So we're stuck with rookie coaches, and as far as rookie coaches, Nelsen (despite his lack of badges... I have more badges than he does) is as good as any.

So name me the coach and then I'll start considering if its a good move. Hypothetical excellent coaches theoretically lining up to take the job means nothing.

I'm sorry but how can you say, with a straight face, that Nelsen is as good as any rookie coach?

How can you even stomach the fact that we've chosen a rookie coach to fix this club?

Debating hypotheticals means nothing...that much I can agree with you on. But to suggest that Nelsen is the right guy because:

a) we have no choice but to hire people who have never coached before (which I don't believe is true) and

b) that he's as good as rookie coaches come

Now that means just as little as debating hypotheticals. You WANT him to be the right guy but nothing has shown that he is or will be. At least not yet. So why the optimism? Because Kevin Payne likes him?

Kevin Payne also thinks we're still in the playoff hunt. LOL

OgtheDim
05-26-2013, 09:27 AM
I'm sorry but how can you say, with a straight face, that Nelsen is as good as any rookie coach?

How can you even stomach the fact that we've chosen a rookie coach to fix this club?

..

Lets just say there is disagreement with you among some of us based on current results.

Is Nelsen perfect and the next Klopp?

No.

Is he growing into his role?

Yes

I look a the adjustments made into the second half yesterday and suggest he is getting better. And I see how the team CAME RIGHT BACK FROM A GOAL AGAINST IN EXTRA TIME and Hall missed a sitter - the attitude of players has changed. And I look at how players have bought into the coaching, and he is methodical and organzied. And I trust the word and actions of every single player who have nothing bad to say about him.

And, some of us look at past MLS rookie coaches that have gone onto success and see strong parallels.

As for what KP is saying, he can't say what he believes, which is if we get even got a sniff at a playoff run this season, we would have been extremely lucky. If he said we had no chance, the media would hound him and he would become the story.


None of us are enjoying this. But some of us see movement forward. And in this year, which is our sub-expansion year, that is the best we can hope for. If you want to blame somebody for that, blame Anselmi for hiring short pants, who sabotaged Winter and didn't create the necessary infrastructure to compete.

Oldtimer
05-27-2013, 08:05 AM
I'm sorry but how can you say, with a straight face, that Nelsen is as good as any rookie coach?

How can you even stomach the fact that we've chosen a rookie coach to fix this club?

Debating hypotheticals means nothing...that much I can agree with you on. But to suggest that Nelsen is the right guy because:

a) we have no choice but to hire people who have never coached before (which I don't believe is true) and

b) that he's as good as rookie coaches come

Now that means just as little as debating hypotheticals. You WANT him to be the right guy but nothing has shown that he is or will be. At least not yet. So why the optimism? Because Kevin Payne likes him?

Kevin Payne also thinks we're still in the playoff hunt. LOL

Don't distort what I said. I didn't say that Nelsen has proved himself, far from it. So far he's showing the type of mistakes rookie coaches make, but that doesn't prove or disprove that he's the right guy, that he's competent or incompetent.

The only thing I have to go by at this point (since one can't judge by short-term results) is Kevin Payne's track record... he has a record of finding good coaches, including one of the best in MLS (Bruce Arena). However no GM scores 100% and Payne may have made a bad choice. Time will tell.

Current results can't possibly give you any basis to judge Nelsen because the team still needs a lot more rebuilding. Any one who judges at this point based on results is doing exactly the sort of short-term thinking that has made our team a joke for 6 years. We need to get away from the short-term and think at least 2-3 years.

Can you tell me that you would have given Jason Kreis even one year when his team had been in last place in MLS for years since entering the league and he only won 6 games? Because he didn't look any better than Nelsen did in year 1. In fact he looked somewhat worse, making what seemed to be really bone-headed trades (but what turned out to be building a long-term winning culture).

As far as hiring people who have never coached before, I didn't say that, what I said is that we could not get a coach with a winning MLS history. I still believe it, and no-one has given me an example of any MLS coach who would realistically trade their club for the mess here in Toronto.

v00d00daddy
05-27-2013, 09:19 AM
Don't distort what I said. I didn't say that Nelsen has proved himself, far from it. So far he's showing the type of mistakes rookie coaches make, but that doesn't prove or disprove that he's the right guy, that he's competent or incompetent.

The only thing I have to go by at this point (since one can't judge by short-term results) is Kevin Payne's track record... he has a record of finding good coaches, including one of the best in MLS (Bruce Arena). However no GM scores 100% and Payne may have made a bad choice. Time will tell.

Current results can't possibly give you any basis to judge Nelsen because the team still needs a lot more rebuilding. Any one who judges at this point based on results is doing exactly the sort of short-term thinking that has made our team a joke for 6 years. We need to get away from the short-term and think at least 2-3 years.

Can you tell me that you would have given Jason Kreis even one year when his team had been in last place in MLS for years since entering the league and he only won 6 games? Because he didn't look any better than Nelsen did in year 1. In fact he looked somewhat worse, making what seemed to be really bone-headed trades (but what turned out to be building a long-term winning culture).

As far as hiring people who have never coached before, I didn't say that, what I said is that we could not get a coach with a winning MLS history. I still believe it, and no-one has given me an example of any MLS coach who would realistically trade their club for the mess here in Toronto.


I didn't distort any of what you said. I just questioned why a rookie coach is a viable option for us. You explained it by saying that you trust in Payne's decision. That's totally fair.

As for coach selection...you said we're stuck with rookie coaches. Maybe you meant rookie as in "never coached in MLS". I understood you to mean rookie as in "never coached before".

I disagreed with that. Montreal is an example.

Oldtimer
05-27-2013, 09:25 AM
I didn't distort any of what you said. I just questioned why a rookie coach is a viable option for us. You explained it by saying that you trust in Payne's decision. That's totally fair.

As for coach selection...you said we're stuck with rookie coaches. Maybe you meant rookie as in "never coached in MLS". I understood you to mean rookie as in "never coached before".

I disagreed with that. Montreal is an example.

Montreal may be the only example where it seems to be working out. It's a rare thing indeed to have a foreign coach working out well in MLS. The list of foreign coaches bombing out in MLS is huge. However, if you can lure Sir Alex out of retirement to take on the TFC rebuild project, I'd be willing to give him a chance (he once thought of immigrating to Canada, you know). :D

Oldtimer
05-27-2013, 09:30 AM
Here's a good article on MLS and foreign coaches. The odds aren't good, that's for sure:

http://www.ussoccerplayers.com/2009/12/by-michael-lewis-new-york-ny-dec-29-2009-ussoccerplayers-the-major-league-soccer-landscape-is-littered-with-for.html

(http://www.ussoccerplayers.com/2009/12/by-michael-lewis-new-york-ny-dec-29-2009-ussoccerplayers-the-major-league-soccer-landscape-is-littered-with-for.html)

v00d00daddy
05-27-2013, 10:50 AM
Here's a good article on MLS and foreign coaches. The odds aren't good, that's for sure:

http://www.ussoccerplayers.com/2009/12/by-michael-lewis-new-york-ny-dec-29-2009-ussoccerplayers-the-major-league-soccer-landscape-is-littered-with-for.html

(http://www.ussoccerplayers.com/2009/12/by-michael-lewis-new-york-ny-dec-29-2009-ussoccerplayers-the-major-league-soccer-landscape-is-littered-with-for.html)

That's a three year old article that cites coaching failures from a long time ago.

By your logic the only guys fit to coach in this league are guys who have coached in MLS before (or elsewhere in the US) or former players?

That's a pretty shallow pool to draw from.

Oldtimer
05-27-2013, 11:14 AM
That's a three year old article that cites coaching failures from a long time ago.

By your logic the only guys fit to coach in this league are guys who have coached in MLS before (or elsewhere in the US) or former players?

That's a pretty shallow pool to draw from.

No foreign coach has succeeded since that article, apart from Montreal (so far), so yeah it's 3 years old, but the record still holds.. So tell me, which coach do you think TFC should have hired that would be willing to come here and succeed?

v00d00daddy
05-27-2013, 11:29 AM
No foreign coach has succeeded since that article, apart from Montreal (so far), so yeah it's 3 years old, but the record still holds.. So tell me, which coach do you think TFC should have hired that would be willing to come here and succeed?

I have no idea but that doesn't mean that I have to be okay with them hiring a guy who not only has never been a coach...but was still a player when hired. Lol

We literally hired a CB playing first team minutes and annointed him a coach.

Lol.

And we're not supposed to be critical of him?

I'd be much more patient for a guy who has coached before and has a plan coming in to the club.

Nelsen has neither and that's not his fault. He had no time to implement or even come up with a plan...he was busy playing.

If he fails I won't blame him. I'll blame Payne.

Fort York Redcoat
05-27-2013, 12:10 PM
By your logic the only guys fit to coach in this league are guys who have coached in MLS before (or elsewhere in the US) or former players?

That's a pretty shallow pool to draw from.

It's a pretty shallow pool regardless. There's a wide world out there full of coaches but the ways to get them here are limited.

lanarkist
05-27-2013, 12:12 PM
I'd love to pretend that anything, even hypothetically, could improve this team with one move, either managerial or roster wise. I think unquestionably if I were to splurge on a player, it would be in the Midfield. Earnshaw is proof of the calibre of forward that can still score a lot of goals in MLS despite being well below average elsewhere in the world. I would love to see the impact even someone like Wesley Sneijder would have in MLS, and if I was shooting for the stars I'll take Ozil.

I think the truth is what many guys have already said though, that without changing or establishing a culture and style TFC will never take the step forward it needs to. No matter what sport, even dynasties suck at first and new coaches/styles struggle. In the absence of establishing the style of team we want here, personnel moves will never make a difference, no matter how big or small they may be. I'd rather see this team suck for three consecutive seasons under the same Manager/GM but building smartly than watch a new manager make moves every new season.

Oldtimer
05-29-2013, 07:08 AM
It's a pretty shallow pool regardless. There's a wide world out there full of coaches but the ways to get them here are limited.
You just have to look at the Raptors trying to attract Masai Ujiri to be their GM to see the difficulties ML$E has in attracting top management to their teams. He's earning $500k for the Nuggets, he's been offered $2.5 million, and there's a good chance he won't take it. TFC, with a history of replacing coaches every year is an even more poisoned cup than the Raptors of the NBA.

Oldtimer
05-29-2013, 07:25 AM
I have no idea but that doesn't mean that I have to be okay with them hiring a guy who not only has never been a coach...but was still a player when hired. Lol



So it seems like what is really important to you is experience. In that case I would assume that Jimmy Brennan would be your preferred coach over Nelsen because he has his papers and coaching experience.

In my books, I would disagree. To me character is much more important in a coach than lower-level coaching experience. You only have to read what people who know him have said about Nelsen to see that they hold him in tremendous respect. Despite an awful starting record (which I blame mostly the quality of the players) I see no reason to replace Nelsen with a Jimmy B. equivalent from here or elsewhere.

Now if you could replace him with a highly experienced winning coach, I'd be all for it, but TFC is in a much, much worse situation than the Raptors of the NBA. In 2009 you could have reasonably argued that Mo should have gotten someone with experience instead of someone he could control. At this point no-one experienced at a high level in their right mind with options anywhere else would take the job of coaching TFC, and that's why you can't come up with a name. Bruce Arena isn't coming here, and neither is Jose Mourinho. You could pay millions and they still wouldn't come.

Dave67
05-29-2013, 11:11 AM
Okay, took a little time out there. Now as to the idea of a coach I'll post here what I posted to TFC in their fan survey.

I understand that Mr Payne is new at Toronto and that it will take time to right the ship. With that said this club at some point in time needs to go after coaches with coaching experience. I'm not asking you to shoot for the moon or anything, but I need a coach I can believe in. I don't have anything against Mr Nelsen, I hope he grows as a coach and leads this team to a brighter future. With that said I have no belief in him whatsoever. If you are going to go the path of hiring Ex players then a more logical choice is to go the way Brighton Hove Albion went when they hired Gus Poyet a few seasons ago. Poyet was a player at a high level but after playing he went on to be a coaching assistant with two clubs. Then he made his move into head coach. Of course Mr Poyet is not someone who would come to Toronto anymore, he'll likely go to the Premiership, but his kind of progress chart as a coach is much more likely to produce a successful coach than grabbing someone with absolutely no experience.

v00d00daddy
05-29-2013, 01:42 PM
So it seems like what is really important to you is experience. In that case I would assume that Jimmy Brennan would be your preferred coach over Nelsen because he has his papers and coaching experience.

In my books, I would disagree. To me character is much more important in a coach than lower-level coaching experience. You only have to read what people who know him have said about Nelsen to see that they hold him in tremendous respect. Despite an awful starting record (which I blame mostly the quality of the players) I see no reason to replace Nelsen with a Jimmy B. equivalent from here or elsewhere.

Now if you could replace him with a highly experienced winning coach, I'd be all for it, but TFC is in a much, much worse situation than the Raptors of the NBA. In 2009 you could have reasonably argued that Mo should have gotten someone with experience instead of someone he could control. At this point no-one experienced at a high level in their right mind with options anywhere else would take the job of coaching TFC, and that's why you can't come up with a name. Bruce Arena isn't coming here, and neither is Jose Mourinho. You could pay millions and they still wouldn't come.

I have no interest in Brennan being coach. LOL

And yes...to suit TFC's current needs, I'd say some level of coaching expertise was a must.

I don't know why you want to give polar opposites on this....Mourinho or Brennan? And why is it character OR experience? Is it so hard to find both?

Character alone does not make a coach.

How did we attract Winter? How did Montreal get Marsch after his stint with the US National team as an assistant? How did they get Schalibaum?

Klopas at Chicago at least coached Indoor. LOL

I think Jay Heaps in NE and Jason Kreis at RSL are the only other coaches in the league that had zero coaching experience before they was appointed.

Everybody mentions Kreis as the success story that shows that it can be done, in defense of Nelsen. Unfortunately that's a pretty slim mark to have to hit.

It's simple...when you're a team that has been as bad TFC have been and you're looking for a coach..you should go out and hire a coach. Not hire a player and tell him he's a coach. (not to mention that we had to wait for him to stop playing so that he could coach us).

It's a little bush league. I hope it works out and a part of me has faith that it can because Kevin Payne has a lot of experience. I just think the deck is stacked against us.

Btw...you said I twisted your words...and then you turn around and put words in my mouth. LOL

You assume that I want Brennan (or equivalent) to coach? You assume wrong. Very wrong.

69Chevy396
05-29-2013, 02:03 PM
if we are to dream, i would like a hot big titted girl who makes a mean pot roast please
Mmmmm, between a great coach and great player, I would chose the one with the biggest tits.

Oldtimer
05-29-2013, 02:43 PM
You assume that I want Brennan (or equivalent) to coach? You assume wrong. Very wrong.

OK, so I go back to my first question. Who would you suggest is a realistic target to come here to coach that meets your standards? I suggest that there is no one, and that Kevin Payne's hands are tied until TFC builds up a bit of a reputation of keeping coaches more than a year or two, or even one complete season LOL.

jabbronies
05-29-2013, 03:45 PM
"You play owner.."

There's your problem. And, I'd argue, one of the biggest problems supporter discussions have these days.

This isn't Football Manager or Hattrick or FIFA or any of the other simulation games that most of us have played. Running a REAL football team is far more complex and far less straightforward. You don't make one decision in isolation of everything else that is going on.

Sure, we can speculate.

But these "do this or this and it will fix things" discussions are simplistic and underestimate the reality of what it takes to pull a team around from where we were just 5 months ago.

Amen!

jabbronies
05-29-2013, 03:46 PM
Mmmmm, between a great coach and great player, I would chose the one with the biggest tits.

So you want this guy back at the club?
http://tfcpics.com/tpl1/images/199.jpg

Dave67
05-29-2013, 03:52 PM
OK, so I go back to my first question. Who would you suggest is a realistic target to come here to coach that meets your standards? I suggest that there is no one, and that Kevin Payne's hands are tied until TFC builds up a bit of a reputation of keeping coaches more than a year or two, or even one complete season LOL.


Okay, took a little time out there. Now as to the idea of a coach I'll post here what I posted to TFC in their fan survey.

I understand that Mr Payne is new at Toronto and that it will take time to right the ship. With that said this club at some point in time needs to go after coaches with coaching experience. I'm not asking you to shoot for the moon or anything, but I need a coach I can believe in. I don't have anything against Mr Nelsen, I hope he grows as a coach and leads this team to a brighter future. With that said I have no belief in him whatsoever. If you are going to go the path of hiring Ex players then a more logical choice is to go the way Brighton Hove Albion went when they hired Gus Poyet a few seasons ago. Poyet was a player at a high level but after playing he went on to be a coaching assistant with two clubs. Then he made his move into head coach. Of course Mr Poyet is not someone who would come to Toronto anymore, he'll likely go to the Premiership, but his kind of progress chart as a coach is much more likely to produce a successful coach than grabbing someone with absolutely no experience.

That's the kind of person I'd go after (pre his Brighton coaching - he's not in our league now). Very realistic type of coach to sign. Logical progress in his learning curve.

v00d00daddy
05-29-2013, 04:03 PM
OK, so I go back to my first question. Who would you suggest is a realistic target to come here to coach that meets your standards? I suggest that there is no one, and that Kevin Payne's hands are tied until TFC builds up a bit of a reputation of keeping coaches more than a year or two, or even one complete season LOL.

It's not my job to pick an appropriate realistic target.

Why is asking for a coach that is actually a coach such a bad thing?

I'm not calling for him to be fired. I'm just saying that, given the choice, I'd have preferred somebody with experience in coaching. And having faith in Kevin Payne is good but it's not enough right now. And I don't treat the first half of this season as a write off. If that were the case I wouldn't watch the games. And to those who have no expectations until next year....why bother watching or going to games?

Apparently Nelsen doesn't have to do anything this year. He is absolved of all wrong doing because he doesn't have good enough players. That allows him to employ shitty tactics, poor player selection and he gets away with no results too.

What a sweet gig to have for a "coach" who's never been a coach.

Sorry, but it just doesn't fly with me. I'm happy to give him plenty of time because, frankly, any less than that is unfair to the man. But I won't sit by and take the shit we're being fed without criticism. That's downright irresponsible.

69Chevy396
05-29-2013, 08:17 PM
So you want this guy back at the club?
http://tfcpics.com/tpl1/images/199.jpg
What ever happened to him?

Oldtimer
05-30-2013, 08:00 AM
Why is asking for a coach that is actually a coach such a bad thing?


Because all you'd get is a Jim Brennan equivalent. I'm not sure that's an improvement. You seem to underestimate how bad things really are. No body wants the job. It's even worse than the Raptors going after Ujiri.

Oldtimer
05-30-2013, 08:03 AM
That's the kind of person I'd go after (pre his Brighton coaching - he's not in our league now). Very realistic type of coach to sign. Logical progress in his learning curve.

Like you say he's not coming now. He was like Jim Brennan or Danny Dichio (or Aron Winter) at the time he was available, in that he lacked head coaching experience. What TFC can realistically get is someone who helps the head coach or is the head coach of an academy team, not a "proven head coach" with a winning record that some here seem to think are available. You could roll out 20 Brinks trucks. They ain't coming.

Fort York Redcoat
05-30-2013, 09:36 AM
It's not my job to pick an appropriate realistic target.

Why is asking for a coach that is actually a coach such a bad thing?

I'm not calling for him to be fired. I'm just saying that, given the choice, I'd have preferred somebody with experience in coaching. And having faith in Kevin Payne is good but it's not enough right now. And I don't treat the first half of this season as a write off. If that were the case I wouldn't watch the games. And to those who have no expectations until next year....why bother watching or going to games?

Apparently Nelsen doesn't have to do anything this year. He is absolved of all wrong doing because he doesn't have good enough players. That allows him to employ shitty tactics, poor player selection and he gets away with no results too.

What a sweet gig to have for a "coach" who's never been a coach.

Sorry, but it just doesn't fly with me. I'm happy to give him plenty of time because, frankly, any less than that is unfair to the man. But I won't sit by and take the shit we're being fed without criticism. That's downright irresponsible.

You're making it your job by rehashing the debate. The other side is that there are no realistic options right now and the timing isn't right. Which you go on to say yourself in the post above. Criticism on present managing is not the same discussion as replacing him. Feel free to break it down.



And I believe that your question about watching the games is a question concerning a difference of support.

v00d00daddy
05-30-2013, 11:56 AM
Because all you'd get is a Jim Brennan equivalent. I'm not sure that's an improvement. You seem to underestimate how bad things really are. No body wants the job. It's even worse than the Raptors going after Ujiri.

So it's so bad that we can't attract an experienced coach but its not so bad that we CAN attract one of the most lauded MLS executives?

A man who is supposed to have connections all over Latin and Central America.

Doesn't make much sense.

Richard
05-30-2013, 12:00 PM
So it's so bad that we can't attract an experienced coach but its not so bad that we CAN attract one of the most lauded MLS executives?

A man who is supposed to have connections all over Latin and Central America.

Doesn't make much sense.

I don't think MLSE was even looking for Payne, MLSE certainly did not attract him. He is only here because MLS is sick of our joke organization, they persuaded him and MLSE to give him the time to fix our club. I don't think its reasonable to expect any experienced coach to come here, even with Payne's connections.

v00d00daddy
05-30-2013, 12:08 PM
You're making it your job by rehashing the debate. The other side is that there are no realistic options right now and the timing isn't right. Which you go on to say yourself in the post above. Criticism on present managing is not the same discussion as replacing him. Feel free to break it down.



And I believe that your question about watching the games is a question concerning a difference of support.

Where did I say there are no other options? I said I don't know the other options.

And I'm not advocating firing Nelsen. I think he should be given time to implement his plan when he has the players he wants.

I just don't like the idea of having to take it all with a smile right now and not be critical of him when I see things I don't like.

I don't like that he has his keeper hoofing the ball down field on every goal kick.

I don't like that he prefers a midfield with Lambe and hall over guys like silva and Osorio.

I don't like that he has his players taking every throw in in the attacking third as a long throw in to the box.

I don't like that he has O'Dea standing over dead ball situations.

Just because I don't think he should be fired it doesn't mean that I can't be critical of his choices.

I'm waiting to see what style of play he's going to employ when he has the players he wants.

While I wait I ask:

1. Why can't he implement his future style of play now?

2. Is it because he wants to get results now and doesn't think his future style lends itself to his current roster?

3. If he's not getting the results playing this dumbed down style (which he isn't), why can't I be critical of it and why should I be patient and write this season off?

As for the question of support...you're right...and I don't want to question anyone's level of support and I apologise if that's how it came off.

Everyone has their reasons. For me...I'm not interested in rewarding this team with my support in person until I start getting something back In return. It's been a one way street of giving for 7 years for me. It's time for them to give back.

Richard
05-30-2013, 12:19 PM
I don't like that he has his keeper hoofing the ball down field on every goal kick.

I don't like that he prefers a midfield with Lambe and hall over guys like silva and Osorio.

I don't like that he has his players taking every throw in in the attacking third as a long throw in to the box.

I don't like that he has O'Dea standing over dead ball situations.



100% agree. Even if you have bad players, these are tactical choices that have no place in modern football.

Oldtimer
05-30-2013, 12:29 PM
I don't think MLSE was even looking for Payne, MLSE certainly did not attract him. He is only here because MLS is sick of our joke organization, they persuaded him and MLSE to give him the time to fix our club. I don't think its reasonable to expect any experienced coach to come here, even with Payne's connections.

Arranged by the MLS FO talking directly with George Cope, CEO of Bell. Anselmi wasn't in on it. Payne is the ultimate MLS insider, having helped set up the league, and was sent here to help fix the mess Anselmi and Mo made. Since the league owns half of each team, and there is extensive revenue-sharing, they have an interest in ensuring that the ship is righted.