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trane
05-22-2013, 10:08 AM
I have been more patient and positive this year, because I like that we brought Payne in, and like what Nelsen is trying to do.

But I have to confess, that while I am not really worried YET, I am starting to wonder when do we say OK we have seen enough of Nelsen and he is not getting it done.

For me it will be in the next 5-10 games I think that If we do not see improvement and some results, I will have to say that Nelsen is not cutting it. I am not saying he even has a winning record during that stretch but we need to start getting points, and YES show us that you can win a game or two, otherwise, we need to start looking for a new manager for next year. AGAIN at this point I am not expecting the playoffs that is done, I kind of believe that Nelsen has what it takes for us to win, BUT we need some results to confirm that belief.


I do not think it is unreasonable.

Yohan
05-22-2013, 10:12 AM
Nelsen is not getting fired this season, even if TFC doesn't win a single game. It's just not KP's style

Initial B
05-22-2013, 10:12 AM
Nelsen is Payne's man. he won't be going anywhere so long as Payne is Prez. I see him leaving TFC in 5 years to take a stab a coaching in Europe.

brad
05-22-2013, 10:14 AM
^^Summer transfer window. My big question is and has been whether or not they have players/moves lined up for this summer. It could be we are were we are now because they have some more of the missing pieces lined up, but they are not available until contracts in Europe expire. It could also be that they are fumbling around and unless we strike luck in the summer we will continue to suck.

It will be interesting to see what sort of moves are made in the summer, and when. Should it all be pre-planned and sorted, I'd expect we would see movement early in the window.

TOBOR !
05-22-2013, 10:18 AM
Deja Vu (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?33999-Why-such-low-expectations-Why-not-ask-for-more)


Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre. This year, I cannot believe what low expectations so many of the supporters have set for this team. FOR FUCK SAKES this is year SEVEN, yes we are rebuiling again but this is the MLS, you have to demand more. This club can win this year, but they will not if there is not pressure on them.

I have like what I have see on the field ( in relative terms of course) but they need to get results. Supporters should tell them, we need to see results, and not once again, well it takes time....

Phil
05-22-2013, 10:20 AM
I am still waiting till August, in the same boat as brad, just want to see what the next steps are in the plan. They have had a good long time to evaluate after getting this team rammed onto them. The recent signings are not confidence inspiring but at least they are showing their concern over some areas. We need defenders that can play a full game and more creativity in midfiled and wing. Fingers crossed.

trane
05-22-2013, 10:42 AM
Deja Vu (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?33999-Why-such-low-expectations-Why-not-ask-for-more)

I am actually not really in the same mind set, as I was last year. I did not agree that we should start the year, asking for nothing. But as I have said I have seen enough to think that we are moving in the right direction. I just think, as I said, that at some point we do need to see some results, to be able to stay behing the club.

Yohan says Nelsen gets the year. I would not be thrilled about that if we start noticeably sliding back, but I can live with it if we show some growth. I cannot accept that he would get five years not matter what.

I am OK with Phil and Brad's position on the issue.

Yohan
05-22-2013, 10:49 AM
I am actually not really in the same mind set, as I was last year. I did not agree that we should start the year, asking for nothing. But as I have said I have seen enough to think that we are moving in the right direction. I just think, as I said, that at some point we do need to see some results, to be able to stay behing the club.

Yohan says Nelsen gets the year. I would not be thrilled about that if we start noticeably sliding back, but I can live with it if we show some growth. I cannot accept that he would get five years not matter what.

I am OK with Phil and Brad's position on the issue.
Nelsen gets a year, plus more, because if MLSE head honchos accept that this is a rebuilding year, you give managers time to sort themselves out, esp if you understand that Nelsen has a steep learning curve, and willing to accept that he's going to make a lot of mistakes.

I'm going to bet Nelsen at 2 years. 1 yr to put a squad together, the next year to see if that squad gets results.

Fort York Redcoat
05-22-2013, 11:12 AM
The coach gets the year.

I can't help but think he'll keep getting players until they can perform right out of the gate.

Couchy81
05-22-2013, 11:19 AM
I am pretty sure no one wants to go through yet another coaching change at this point. If I was willing to give Winter the time, I will also give Nelsen the time. 10 games from now if we are still a turd then I'll be worried, but I'll still give him the time.

ag futbol
05-22-2013, 11:24 AM
Deja Vu (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?33999-Why-such-low-expectations-Why-not-ask-for-more)
This is one of those quotes I have sympathy for, yet I don't.

Yes, this club needs to produce more for its fans.

No, the people in charge can't fix the problem right away. They are also not the ones who got us into this mess. Just because we've been screwed over for so long doesn't mean we can have the instant success.

My compromise is that I've cut my spend and keep track of things from a distance. I'm not jumping in with both feet at the sign of the latest plan or promise of success. But I'm not going to completely abandon the club either.

Initial B
05-22-2013, 01:04 PM
I didn't mean to imply that Nelsen would still be here if the Year 5 team is as inept as this year's team. But I do see him getting then next two years to build the team and his coaching skills. I think in 2015 it will all come together and we'll get to the playoffs, at which point it will be only natural to keep Nelsen around at that point. If 2015 starts out like 2013, then yes, Nelsen should get the boot. But remember, TFC has never, EVER, given a coach more than 18 months to turn things around. I think the organization and the supporters need to resist the urge to mash the panic button for at least three years (please, someone hide it somewhere) and be patient.

Oldtimer
05-22-2013, 01:45 PM
It's not time for results. Results are for next year. Relax and don't stress yourself, you'll feel a lot better.

As Jeremy said:


everyone would feel better it they accepted that this season was a write-off before it started.

It's totally unrealistic that the worst team in the world would become something good a 3 months. At least TFC is no longer worst in the world, it's not even worst in the league, although it's still a totally crappy team. Baby steps.

We'll begin to see Payne's team after the transfer window, and more next January. What's here now are temp agency players... just a fill-in until the real team comes.

Ultra & Proud
05-22-2013, 01:49 PM
TFC has never, EVER, given a coach more than 18 months to turn things around. I think the organization and the supporters need to resist the urge to mash the panic button for at least three years (please, someone hide it somewhere) and be patient.

Relevant because it's been our problem for 6+ seasons : http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/21/raptors-impatience-cost-colangelo-just-like-burkie

You'd think that some of the people around here who've watched this show in the past would get with the program now but it seems this is one of the biggest knee jerk, bandwagon sports markets in the world.

Canary10
05-22-2013, 01:59 PM
The panic the fans go through causes the club to panic, leading to bad DP signings, firing coaches, getting rid of decent players, etc. For once let's just get behind the guys we have and not worry about results right now. There'll be time next year for that. As Oldtimer/Jloome said, the playoffs were never in the cards this year anyway. Let's not do the knee jerk thing.

Abou Sky
05-22-2013, 02:06 PM
I have been more patient and positive this year, because I like that we brought Payne in, and like what Nelsen is trying to do.

But I have to confess, that while I am not really worried YET, I am starting to wonder when do we say OK we have seen enough of Nelsen and he is not getting it done.

For me it will be in the next 5-10 games I think that If we do not see improvement and some results, I will have to say that Nelsen is not cutting it. I am not saying he even has a winning record during that stretch but we need to start getting points, and YES show us that you can win a game or two, otherwise, we need to start looking for a new manager for next year. AGAIN at this point I am not expecting the playoffs that is done, I kind of believe that Nelsen has what it takes for us to win, BUT we need some results to confirm that belief.


I do not think it is unreasonable.

My take is after the summer transfer window.

There are only 13 games after the end of the summer transfer window (19 if you include all games after the start of the opening of the transfer window) I figure we should end the season on a very positive note for me to say 'this was a sucessful year' something like 5-3-5 or better.

Abou Sky
05-22-2013, 02:08 PM
Relevant because it's been our problem for 6+ seasons : http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/21/raptors-impatience-cost-colangelo-just-like-burkie

You'd think that some of the people around here who've watched this show in the past would get with the program now but it seems this is one of the biggest knee jerk, bandwagon sports markets in the world.

+1million!

Toronto sports fans have the attention span of gnats.

tfcleeds
05-22-2013, 02:11 PM
I for one didn't have any expectations for this season, other than perhaps exceeding last years' wins/points total (which really shouldn't be that difficult). At least on the scoreboard, we've been in every game so far (Montreal in CC excepted), and were it not for some costly last minute defensive lapses, we'd be in a much better position. At least matches haven't been over by HT, like they were on many occasions last season. That surely, is some sign of progress, although our late-game meltdowns haven't ceased being a problem.

McBrace
05-22-2013, 03:18 PM
My God, not another coaching change. This season is to tear down and build. As Leeds mentioned we're competing, just not the entire match... One season isn't patience, actually far from it. Management have walked into a club with little talent, and bloated salaries. No coach in the world is going to make much of a difference with that. Pulling the plug on RN would be insane.

trane
05-22-2013, 03:21 PM
^ This is why I am still positive. But I do hope to see something more. After the summer transfer window is not a bad time period, again not for us to be a world beater but to see real growth and some points.

I do not accept that in this league and with these players WE cannot do anything but drop point. Sure we cannot be world class, but we could be doing better then we are. I am sure Nelsen would expect better so far. That is why I like him as a manager.

trane
05-22-2013, 03:29 PM
My problem with a complete give him all season no matter what stance, is that you are pretty well giving him a season do learn but you are not evaluating his performance. Why do that? What is the logic in that? If he had gone the season without a point and will less goals for and twice the goals against, why keep him??? There has to be some evaluation during the season to evaluate if he is really the coach to built around.

This is not knee jerk bandwagon jumping, its logic. You do not keep someone around just because, he has to have shown that he is the guy. And in my eyes to do so, we need to show some result and more growth.

v00d00daddy
05-22-2013, 03:31 PM
As Oldtimer/Jloome said, the playoffs were never in the cards this year anyway. Let's not do the knee jerk thing.

While I agree about being patient I think you guys need to understand that it's hard to say "wait until next year" with any sense of confidence when you have the guy at the top saying shit like this:


"We have been in every single game in MLS," Payne said. "We have managed to find a unique series of ways to shoot ourselves in the foot, but I actually don't think we've been outplayed in a game yet this year."

and when he talks about the playoffs like this how can anyone question people who, at the very least, expect a result here or there?


"I do believe by the end of the season we will be in the conversation for the playoffs," he said. "We've dug ourselves a bit of a hole, but I think that we will with a win or two we'll be able to crawl out of that hole rather quickly,"

Maybe we should focus less on telling fellow supporters to temper their expectations when the GM of the club isn't doing the same.

QBall
05-22-2013, 04:18 PM
TFC as an organization is already a laughing stock with the number of coaching changes since it's inception. If they fire Nelsen at the end of the season then we should start wearing big red noses and clown wigs to the games in order to be properly be part of the circus.

trane
05-22-2013, 04:57 PM
^ We are the laughing stock of the league because despite so much promise and support we have not come close to being a winning organization. The coaches are the bi-product of that futility.

And no one is calling for the firing of Nelsen.

gate7
05-22-2013, 06:10 PM
whats better?.... 1 win in 10 (3 pts) with Winter or no wins in 10 (4 pts) with Nelson? If we lose next game that will be my survey question. So basically im giving it ! more game...... of-course the 'clowns' are new but the circus is the same.

gate7
05-22-2013, 06:11 PM
not calling for the firing of Nelson ether......just saying

FluSH
05-22-2013, 06:37 PM
If we fire any more coaches... Who on earth will want to come coach for us?

This stop is the last stop in the career bus...

TFC07
05-22-2013, 06:40 PM
Problem with this team is that they're regressing not improving (meaning they're going opposite direction of rebuilding this team). This should be a worrying sign for us. I agree we can't judge Nelsen too harshly now, but after summer window, this team will be different. That is when we can start be more demanding for results because KP and co will have their players by then.

The only way Nelsen is let go is if we can get some experience (winning) manager take over this team which isn't going to happen. So we have no choice, but remain patience with Nelsen for this season. However, Nelsen needs to start picking up results some point in this season to gives us hope for next season (that's when we can determine if Nelsen is up to task or not).

Rudy
05-22-2013, 07:56 PM
Does anyone know why Nelson didnt do the post-game interview last Sat?

Prof
05-22-2013, 08:33 PM
The panic the fans go through causes the club to panic, leading to bad DP signings, firing coaches, getting rid of decent players, etc. For once let's just get behind the guys we have and not worry about results right now. There'll be time next year for that. As Oldtimer/Jloome said, the playoffs were never in the cards this year anyway. Let's not do the knee jerk thing.

The footy they are playing is much better than last year. Support the team and the results will come.

CoachGT
05-22-2013, 08:36 PM
Does anyone know why Nelson didnt do the post-game interview last Sat?

Yes. He was attending the reserve game, specifically to watch Danny K. Danny only played the first half.

Haddy
05-22-2013, 08:41 PM
I've always believed that if you completely change the management team of any club - and begin what seems like a rebuild - the new staff should be given THREE full windows to pull their roster together. That's not to say that they can't, at the very least, show improvement over that time. But I really believe patience should be exercised - whether you can tolerate it or not.

I'm personally so sick and tired of high manager turnover. I'd like to believe that many of us cringe and complain when managers in England and/or other parts of Europe are scrapped too soon.

The winter window was more like a partial window for Payne/Nelsen. Heck, they were still making signings hours before the first match - just to fill temporary holes. That sums it up right there.

There's obviously a ton riding on this summer. If any improvement doesn't occur by September, sure, I'll buy a ticket for the complain train. But I won't get on board until after next season starts.

Until then, my ticket cost was cut in half this season and I renewed fully expecting my wife to see the standings and murder me for wasting our money...just so I still have my seat when it's worth it next year. **GULP**

Flipityflu
05-22-2013, 08:47 PM
whats better?.... 1 win in 10 (3 pts) with Winter or no wins in 10 (4 pts) with Nelson? If we lose next game that will be my survey question. So basically im giving it ! more game...... of-course the 'clowns' are new but the circus is the same.

Winter had an entire season before those 10 games....

the thing is, Nelsen should not have been hired in the first place. not to say i'm in favour of sacking him now, but, you know, you hire a guy with no experience, no certs, and this is what happens...no real direction.

tfcocd
05-23-2013, 08:15 AM
I've always believed that if you completely change the management team of any club - and begin what seems like a rebuild - the new staff should be given THREE full windows to pull their roster together. That's not to say that they can't, at the very least, show improvement over that time. But I really believe patience should be exercised - whether you can tolerate it or not.

I'm personally so sick and tired of high manager turnover. I'd like to believe that many of us cringe and complain when managers in England and/or other parts of Europe are scrapped too soon.

The winter window was more like a partial window for Payne/Nelsen. Heck, they were still making signings hours before the first match - just to fill temporary holes. That sums it up right there.

There's obviously a ton riding on this summer. If any improvement doesn't occur by September, sure, I'll buy a ticket for the complain train. But I won't get on board until after next season starts.

Until then, my ticket cost was cut in half this season and I renewed fully expecting my wife to see the standings and murder me for wasting our money...just so I still have my seat when it's worth it next year. **GULP**

There are still many holes to fill in the roster so I agree that it will take multiple windows to complete the makeover. One hope for short term results now is the re-insertion of DK into the lineup. He even made Mariner look like a decent coach for the 5 games he was healthy. If he can show that form again, bury some of the chances the current 'strikeforce' has left begging, he could give Nelsen and this team some much neede relief from the pressure of this dreadful start.

Yohan
05-23-2013, 08:48 AM
if it makes anyone feel better, there are 2 teams 'worse' than TFC right now (though tied with Chicago on pts)

http://www.mlssoccer.com/standings/supporters-shield

trane
05-23-2013, 08:55 AM
To all those who seem not to want a coaching change not matter what the rest of the season looks like, are you not tiered of losing more? Again we have not been a bad team because of the coaching changes, we have had so many coaching changes, ( for the most part) because none of the coaches have been able to turn this team around. Giving another coach two years or more just because will not necessarily make him into a great coach in year three. If Nelsen goes the entire year with no points, we regress both in attacking and defending WHY bring him back next year?

Again I am not calling for his firing, but lets just be vigilant, but not unresonable.

Oldtimer
05-23-2013, 08:56 AM
Winter had an entire season before those 10 games....

the thing is, Nelsen should not have been hired in the first place. not to say i'm in favour of sacking him now, but, you know, you hire a guy with no experience, no certs, and this is what happens...no real direction.

That Jason Kreis of RSL, no experience at all - even at a college level expecting him to coach a professional MLS team. What were they thinking???? And that Bruce Arena that Payne hired for DC. Sure he had experience at a University level program (combined with being assistant coach of the lacrosse team because it wasn't enough of a job to justify having a full-time coach), but he had never coached a pro or even semi-pro team before, even in the USL. What was Payne thinking??? Obviously he has no idea what he is doing. :p

Oldtimer
05-23-2013, 09:01 AM
To all those who seem not to want a coaching change not matter what the rest of the season looks like, are you not tiered of losing more? Again we have not been a bad team because of the coaching changes, we have had so many coaching changes, ( for the most part) because none of the coaches have been able to turn this team around. Giving another coach two years or more just because will not necessarily make him into a great coach in year three. If Nelsen goes the entire year with no points, we regress both in attacking and defending WHY bring him back next year?

Again I am not calling for his firing, but lets just be vigilant, but not unresonable.

Jason Kreis' RSL sucked for a year and a half, then barely squeaked into the playoffs. You should read the media reports from that period, you'd find it enlightening. Many people thought he had no idea what he was doing. Your timeline is blatantly unrealistic for Nelsen.

I expect nothing from this year. Zero. Nada. Next year I expect playoffs, or very close to it. After that I want a regularly competitive team.

Yohan
05-23-2013, 09:07 AM
To all those who seem not to want a coaching change not matter what the rest of the season looks like, are you not tiered of losing more? Again we have not been a bad team because of the coaching changes, we have had so many coaching changes, ( for the most part) because none of the coaches have been able to turn this team around. Giving another coach two years or more just because will not necessarily make him into a great coach in year three. If Nelsen goes the entire year with no points, we regress both in attacking and defending WHY bring him back next year?

Again I am not calling for his firing, but lets just be vigilant, but not unresonable.
read the press of other rebuilding teams on their year 1 of rebuilding plan and most would think that the coach blows. i suppose this depends on how you define progress.

for me, the thing I look most for is whether the players still believe in their coach, despite the terrible results.

tfcleeds
05-23-2013, 09:11 AM
if it makes anyone feel better, there are 2 teams 'worse' than TFC right now (though tied with Chicago on pts)http://www.mlssoccer.com/standings/supporters-shieldMust admit, it doesn't particularly make me feel much better, especially considering I could see either of those teams winning before us, and voila! We're in last place overall. But if another season of finishing in dead last is a necessary by-product of building a competitive squad for next season and beyond, I suppose I'm OK with it. Just more points than last year, please.

Canary10
05-23-2013, 09:13 AM
To all those who seem not to want a coaching change not matter what the rest of the season looks like, are you not tiered of losing more? Again we have not been a bad team because of the coaching changes, we have had so many coaching changes, ( for the most part) because none of the coaches have been able to turn this team around. Giving another coach two years or more just because will not necessarily make him into a great coach in year three. If Nelsen goes the entire year with no points, we regress both in attacking and defending WHY bring him back next year?

Again I am not calling for his firing, but lets just be vigilant, but not unresonable.

I agree we need to be vigilant, absolutely. The team right now though is probably as far away from a finished product as any we've fielded so far in TFC's history. And obviously so. It's really hard to gauge his coaching in that context. I do know that I have respect for him and like him, unlike many of our coaches/management. That goes a certain distance. Maybe what Yohan said is the best - if the players still want to play for him, then keep him there.

jloome
05-23-2013, 09:17 AM
I agree we need to be vigilant, absolutely. The team right now though is probably as far away from a finished product as any we've fielded so far in TFC's history.

I'd actually disagree with that. Past teams may have been "finished", but the talent judges were lousy, so really, they weren't finished products -- at least, not competitive ones.

Look, we're -5 on goal differential. We're not being dominated by other teams, we are improving, we have a better roster already than any of our past editions.

I have faith. I think Nelsen and Payne are going in the right direction and what's more, assuming he's given this season and next to prove it, I think Nelsen can turn the team around.

I've been following this team from day one and most of the people on here with whom I discuss anything at length know my track record, so I will let it speak for itself. People may not be seeing it, but the improvement is there. It's just not enough, yet.

The giving time part and respect parts I definitely agree with.

Canary10
05-23-2013, 09:20 AM
I'd actually disagree with that. Past teams may have been "finished", but the talent judges were lousy, so really, they weren't finished products -- at least, not competitive ones.

Look, we're -5 on goal differential. We're not being dominated by other teams, we are improving, we have a better roster already than any of our past editions.

I have faith. I think Nelsen and Payne are going in the right direction and what's more, assuming he's given this season and next to prove it, I think Nelsen can turn the team around.

I've been following this team from day one and most of the people on here with whom I discuss anything at length know my track record, so I will let it speak for itself. People may not be seeing it, but the improvement is there. It's just not enough, yet.

By "finished" I mean we have 5 or 6 players who likely won't be around after the summer transfer window because of loans. That's different than past years.

Yohan
05-23-2013, 09:25 AM
we would not be having this discussion if half the individual defensive brainfart on late games costing goals did not happen.

jloome
05-23-2013, 09:25 AM
By "finished" I mean we have 5 or 6 players who likely won't be around after the summer transfer window because of loans. That's different than past years.

But it's not a relevant difference, really, because those teams were so bad. They were "full" rosters, but they were full of guys who couldn't compete in this league. So if anything, not having a "finished" roster now, and yet it still being generally stronger than the last three years, is a good thing.

Initial B
05-23-2013, 09:28 AM
But if another season of finishing in dead last is a necessary by-product of building a competitive squad for next season and beyond, I suppose I'm OK with it. Just more points than last year, please.
I do NOT want to see us finish in last place, as that would just make me want to hunt down Mariner and throttle him for trading away a number one draft pick for a player who is no longer with the team. That's even worse than what Burke did with Kessel.

And yes Trane, I'm tired of all the losing too. But I don't see any way out of it for the rest of this season. We were destined to be this year's punching bag (along with ChivasUSA) no matter what coach was in place here, so I'd rather have Nelsen make the mistakes and get the experience he needs this year so he can be more effective next year.

jloome
05-23-2013, 09:29 AM
we would not be having this discussion if half the brainfart on late games costing goals did not happen.

We'd have somewhere between 14 and 22 points, as well, and be in the playoff hunt. I get what the critics are saying, in terms of "if its and buts were...." but the statistical reality is that we ARE in every game. We're not being dominated, with the exception of the Massacre in Montreal.

I even agree with Payne's somewhat rosy projection that the playoffs are still possible -- not likely, but possible. If Earnshaw and Koevermans stay healthy they could be the best partnership in the league (outside of donovan keane, when donovan's upfront); Brockie's an unknown but has been lighting it up in the A-league recently. Laba looked great in the last game, spring openings all over the place; timing with his teammates will come.

Obviously we have some holes still in that both our fullback positions are weak; but maybe they're not so weak that we can't compete.

I'm bitterly disappointed each week. But with the exception of Montreal and the second half last week, I haven't felt like the team has turned off and been out of it.

Flipityflu
05-23-2013, 09:32 AM
That Jason Kreis of RSL, no experience at all - even at a college level expecting him to coach a professional MLS team. What were they thinking???? And that Bruce Arena that Payne hired for DC. Sure he had experience at a University level program (combined with being assistant coach of the lacrosse team because it wasn't enough of a job to justify having a full-time coach), but he had never coached a pro or even semi-pro team before, even in the USL. What was Payne thinking??? Obviously he has no idea what he is doing. :p

what a pathetic position that is to take. would you be saying that if they had hired one of us instead? no wonder this club can get away with what its done over the last 7 years with blind ass supporter like this. Nelsen should never have been hired. longball tactics without anybody to actually hold the ball up. thats shitty management, full stop.

the only reason i can still maange to care is that i don't put one penny into this team.

trane
05-23-2013, 09:40 AM
^ I agree that we have improved, and I agree that we are in most if not every game. This is why I am ok with were we are now. But I would like to see some of these into points.


As for those pointing to other MLS coaches and teams and media, I do not care. I analyze what I see from our team now. I am not discontent, I believe, and as I said I like and belief in Nelsen. I just think that to be truly able to say he is the guy, we need to see SOME results, some games were defense and offence is there for 90, or we just toughen it out and get points, MORE draws would be fine by me. Being a team that is hard to beat but is not quite there in terms of winning is fine by me, in terms of progress. But we are not quite there yet.

Oldtimer
05-23-2013, 09:41 AM
what a pathetic position that is to take. would you be saying that if they had hired one of us instead? no wonder this club can get away with what its done over the last 7 years with blind ass supporter like this. Nelsen should never have been hired. longball tactics without anybody to actually hold the ball up. thats shitty management, full stop.

the only reason i can still maange to care is that i don't put one penny into this team.

What kind of tactics would you play with these players? They aren't exactly Barcelona. Winter found that out fast enough, lol. What I've said all along is judge Nelsen once he has a team, not of quick fixes, but one that he and Payne feel at least somewhat comfortable with. Nelsen might be crap, he might be great, but you can't possibly tell at this point. The only thing you do hear is the tremendous respect that players have for him. That's something positive to put at least a little hope in.

Canary10
05-23-2013, 09:48 AM
But it's not a relevant difference, really, because those teams were so bad. They were "full" rosters, but they were full of guys who couldn't compete in this league. So if anything, not having a "finished" roster now, and yet it still being generally stronger than the last three years, is a good thing.

Well by that definition no team is really finished. I think it's relevant to a discussion of how your head coach is doing if half your team is different halfway through the season (by design no less).

gdg_9
05-23-2013, 10:01 AM
I've always believed that if you completely change the management team of any club - and begin what seems like a rebuild - the new staff should be given THREE full windows to pull their roster together. That's not to say that they can't, at the very least, show improvement over that time. But I really believe patience should be exercised - whether you can tolerate it or not.


That is the proper attitude to have... Don't expect instant success. Have patience, but while doing so demand constant improvement of some sort.


Until then, my ticket cost was cut in half this season and I renewed fully expecting my wife to see the standings and murder me for wasting our money...just so I still have my seat when it's worth it next year. **GULP**

This was my hope as well! Hopefully that's how it turns out, and it is worth the wait!


There are still many holes to fill in the roster so I agree that it will take multiple windows to complete the makeover. One hope for short term results now is the re-insertion of DK into the lineup. He even made Mariner look like a decent coach for the 5 games he was healthy. If he can show that form again, bury some of the chances the current 'strikeforce' has left begging, he could give Nelsen and this team some much neede relief from the pressure of this dreadful start.

Very good point. If it was Danny K in the lineup last weekend instead of Braun, it would have been a VERY different game. No way Danny misses a sitter like that.

Haddy
05-23-2013, 10:01 AM
I expect nothing from this year. Zero. Nada. Next year I expect playoffs, or very close to it. After that I want a regularly competitive team.

^ This.


we would not be having this discussion if half the individual defensive brainfart on late games costing goals did not happen.

^ And this.


Again, season ticket prices were brought back to Season 1. In my opinion, that basically means the past seasons never happened and we are back at ground zero. Any points are a fun, hopefully entertaining, bonus.

That also means Danny D. scored his first goal 11 days ago...and a couple hours later I went on a first date with my future wife. See - not everything is bad in an expansion year!

ag futbol
05-23-2013, 11:24 AM
That Jason Kreis of RSL, no experience at all - even at a college level expecting him to coach a professional MLS team. What were they thinking???? And that Bruce Arena that Payne hired for DC. Sure he had experience at a University level program (combined with being assistant coach of the lacrosse team because it wasn't enough of a job to justify having a full-time coach), but he had never coached a pro or even semi-pro team before, even in the USL. What was Payne thinking??? Obviously he has no idea what he is doing. :p
There is no doubt that there are successful coaches out there without their badges.

But to be frank here, education says something. It's no guarantee of quality, but all else equal I'd prefer a coach with an education to one with none. Especially when that coach has no prior experience behind the bench. It shows dedication to a career path and provides usable knowledge. Some people will throw away that knowledge and lack skills in other areas that end up making them the example of "poor managers with licenses". But that doesn't invalidate the point of hiring someone who's educated. You could argue that the managers who are 'good' would still be better with education.

I'm not writing this to dismiss Nelsen, I believe it was a reasonably justified hire given the success of some of the new faces in the league. But I'd still be more confident in him if he had the qualifications. Some of the things we've seen so far look to me like learning from mistakes on the job a coaching course would have helped you avoid in the first place.

It's an unfinished story and we'll find out if he adjusts long run. I find his performance to be a mixed bag so far, neither particularly good or bad.

v00d00daddy
05-23-2013, 11:29 AM
Again...I agree with being patient because its not fair to Nelsen to expect strong results so early in his campaign.

I just wonder...why now?

Why is the three year notion okay now?

Why should we be okay with giving a "zero experience" coach 3 years to compete?

I'm okay with doing it but I just wonder if people were willing to give Winter 3 years?

Winter and co. were tasked with implementing a complete overhaul of the philosophy of this club. Top to bottom. And he was run out of town. He was run out of town long after people had already called for his head (which happened in his first season).

People were talking shit about the "total football" propaganda in his first season.

Now we have to stomach long ball garbage because its a time for patience?

Fine...I'll be patient but I won't stand for people preaching patience when they were on the fire Winter bandwagon not so long ago.

I can't stomach the idea of preaching patience just because the guy at the helm plays a style that people are more accustomed to.

Because other than that, I don't see why some people who called for Winters head are now calling for patience from Nelson and Payne.

As for wanting results...I'll stop asking for results when Payne stops telling me that we haven't once been outplayed and we're still in the playoff hunt. Lol

ag futbol
05-23-2013, 11:36 AM
^ all about checkpoints and incremental progress on the way to winning. It's not always a straight up trajectory but it should show certain things.

AW year two, massive losing streak, the team should have been beyond that point. If Nelsen puts one of those up next year, I'd fire him because it shows major cracks in the foundation. But for now? He can have some time to identify players and clean out crap.

If that doesn't eventually lead to small gains, then I doubt it would lead to big ones long run either. But until that time, I give him free-reign to figure it out.

Oldtimer
05-23-2013, 11:36 AM
I'm not writing this to dismiss Nelsen, I believe it was a reasonably justified hire given the success of some of the new faces in the league. But I'd still be more confident in him if he had the qualifications. Some of the things we've seen so far look to me like learning from mistakes on the job a coaching course would have helped you avoid in the first place.

It's an unfinished story and we'll find out if he adjusts long run.

No question, the main advantage of having your badges is that you've already learned how to handle some situations and that speeds up the learning curve. It's not like some fields, however, where your schooling is everything, it's just a help. Even if you do have your badges, you are going to make mistakes, it takes years to learn the finer parts of the game. Unfortunately with our track record there is no way a highly experienced coach is going to come here. JC and Winter had the most experience, and none of them had a first team coaching background (except JC as caretaker).

Initial B
05-23-2013, 11:58 AM
I didn't advocate firing Winter either. I wanted him to stay out the season and see what the second half would bring with him at the helm. Personally, I think Mariner's early success was because the players were finally beginning to gel, then Mariner changed the line-up to 'his guys' and things quickly degraded after that.

Fort York Redcoat
05-23-2013, 12:08 PM
Again...I agree with being patient because its not fair to Nelsen to expect strong results so early in his campaign.

I just wonder...why now?

Why is the three year notion okay now?

Why should we be okay with giving a "zero experience" coach 3 years to compete?

I'm okay with doing it but I just wonder if people were willing to give Winter 3 years?

Winter and co. were tasked with implementing a complete overhaul of the philosophy of this club. Top to bottom. And he was run out of town. He was run out of town long after people had already called for his head (which happened in his first season).

People were talking shit about the "total football" propaganda in his first season.

Now we have to stomach long ball garbage because its a time for patience?

Fine...I'll be patient but I won't stand for people preaching patience when they were on the fire Winter bandwagon not so long ago.

I can't stomach the idea of preaching patience just because the guy at the helm plays a style that people are more accustomed to.

Because other than that, I don't see why some people who called for Winters head are now calling for patience from Nelson and Payne.

As for wanting results...I'll stop asking for results when Payne stops telling me that we haven't once been outplayed and we're still in the playoff hunt. Lol


This is pretty tired. Let's say out loud that what we're seeing isn't all hypocrisy, ok? There are people who had patience for EVERY coach some time or every time but the opposite is true as well. I don't like the inference that if you preach patience now, and because all his predecessors have been let go that it was WE who didn't give them time.

edit: This post is for everyone not the quoted poster.

tfcocd
05-23-2013, 12:20 PM
^ all about checkpoints and incremental progress on the way to winning. It's not always a straight up trajectory but it should show certain things.

AW year two, massive losing streak, the team should have been beyond that point. If Nelsen puts one of those up next year, I'd fire him because it shows major cracks in the foundation. But for now? He can have some time to identify players and clean out crap.

If that doesn't eventually lead to small gains, then I doubt it would lead to big ones long run either. But until that time, I give him free-reign to figure it out.

Yep, the horror show that was the start of the 12' season did Winter in and I think it would undo Nelsen if he bombs out next year.

The difference with this current situation is the FO structure. The president is an MLS football man who surveyed the available coaches and went with his first choice based on what he saw out there and his personal history. It can be argued that an NASL or College coach would have been better but Payne was hired to make the decision and Nelsen was his first choice. Given Payne's history with coaches and some recent examples quoted above such as RSL I am not too concerned with him learning on the job this season.

TFC has never been spoiled for choice with coaches and came off a historic season that required major roster surgery. Building correctly now and positioning for next year looks like the best and only option for the club and unfortunately offers worse short term pain than imagined. For me I will just watch with interest at the pieces assembled and how they work out and evolve. If there is not evidence of a mid table team after 14' summer window I think there will be some hard questions asked of the FO and at that point they will be on the clock.

CoachGT
05-23-2013, 04:27 PM
I get the concept of time and respect, and readily admit that 10 games is nowhere near a reasonable time for a coach or team management to start over.

A few points that get to me and make me uncomfortable:

- while there is discussion about having to get rid of deadwood, even a new team will have to do that following an expansion draft. And there are pieces here worth keeping.
- graduating from the academy does not mean that you are ready for a starting spot on the team. Henry and Morgan are still not ready for full on starting assignments, although both have promise. Not without more playing time at a more appropriate level, between MLS and academy, maybe at a USL or NASL level.
- if you can compete, really compete, for 80 minutes, then an additional 15 minutes should not be out of reach for professionals. For that reason, I don't buy our current results. A competing team wins at least some of the time. I'm not sure if this team plays up to the level of the opponent or if the opponent plays down to them (I'm certainly leaning that opponents play down except for a few minutes)
- the "complete rebuild" isn't what I thought was bring sold here. Parts, yes, but at this point, very few players who started for us last year are seeing the pitch this year. Injuries are a part of the game. While there is some modest improvement, the league around us appears to have improved more than we have. I don't get that part of it, if we have changed so much of the team supposedly for the better.

I have lowered my expectations to just enjoying the company in the stands. But I'm really hoping to see some better quality in the pitch soon.

Derko
05-23-2013, 05:08 PM
I woulld expect to see some major signings in the summer, but those new players will need time to gel, so again we are mid summer with a team that will really have no chemistry.
Just give us some success, and full effort.
Nelson and Payne need at least 2 years, to be fair.

As much as there were numerous player changes in year 1 and most of year 2, we could be pretty confident of coming away with 1 point or 3 points at home, BMO really was a Fortress, what has happened to that.
I think the marginal players that we had back then at least had a desire to fight and play, and scrap out results, they may not have been the pretty football players, playing the pretty football that we all wish for, but at least they fought for themselves,the results,the crest, and the supporters. There seem to be only a few that are playing like that.

Yohan
05-23-2013, 05:22 PM
As much as there were numerous player changes in year 1 and most of year 2, we could be pretty confident of coming away with 1 point or 3 points at home, BMO really was a Fortress, what has happened to that.
I think the marginal players that we had back then at least had a desire to fight and play, and scrap out results, they may not have been the pretty football players, playing the pretty football that we all wish for, but at least they fought for themselves,the results,the crest, and the supporters. There seem to be only a few that are playing like that.
I think a lot of the 'Fortress' had to with the fact that it was turf...

Haddy
05-23-2013, 05:37 PM
Again...I agree with being patient because its not fair to Nelsen to expect strong results so early in his campaign.

I just wonder...why now?

Why is the three year notion okay now?

I would personally prefer, as stated earlier, three transfer windows to see strong improvement. Not three years.

I used to be more aggressive about change when TFC hit the skids. So basically, every week ;)

But that hasn't worked so far. Might as well try something different for a.....wait for it....change!

trane
05-23-2013, 06:27 PM
I get the concept of time and respect, and readily admit that 10 games is nowhere near a reasonable time for a coach or team management to start over.

A few points that get to me and make me uncomfortable:

- while there is discussion about having to get rid of deadwood, even a new team will have to do that following an expansion draft. And there are pieces here worth keeping.
- graduating from the academy does not mean that you are ready for a starting spot on the team. Henry and Morgan are still not ready for full on starting assignments, although both have promise. Not without more playing time at a more appropriate level, between MLS and academy, maybe at a USL or NASL level.
- if you can compete, really compete, for 80 minutes, then an additional 15 minutes should not be out of reach for professionals. For that reason, I don't buy our current results. A competing team wins at least some of the time. I'm not sure if this team plays up to the level of the opponent or if the opponent plays down to them (I'm certainly leaning that opponents play down except for a few minutes)
- the "complete rebuild" isn't what I thought was bring sold here. Parts, yes, but at this point, very few players who started for us last year are seeing the pitch this year. Injuries are a part of the game. While there is some modest improvement, the league around us appears to have improved more than we have. I don't get that part of it, if we have changed so much of the team supposedly for the better.

I have lowered my expectations to just enjoying the company in the stands. But I'm really hoping to see some better quality in the pitch soon.

You have hit it on the nose, as to why I want to see some results soon, because if not, it is hard to really judge if we are as close to being competitive as the stats may indicate, as a you say a competitive team gets results sometimes.

trane
05-23-2013, 06:28 PM
Derko, the return to the Fortress, hard to beat at home is a must for me. This is what I hope to see, to be be confident that this is the right coach.

tfc2008
05-23-2013, 07:01 PM
After ten months forced at the zijlaan stands to come to stamp Danny Koevermans defense in action for Toronto FC. The attacker anticipates self clearly its rentree in the American competition.


Koevermans hit in July geblesseerd during the competition against New England Revolution. After a knee operation, he had to have months revalideren. Past Saturday he made its comeback with the promises of Toronto FC against Columbus Crew.


'It felt delightfully', wanted to begin Koevermans this week on the website of its club back on its rentree within the lines. 'I feel prevent me as a small child. I am can move and clench so fortunately again on to hit. It is fantastic.'


'Through the defeat was had to work one bad day, but for me personal one victory after ten months hard. I am fed up of it that the training of today again past is.'


Koevermans want to walk self calliper rule enough for a rentree in the head power of Toronto FC, but late the next competition yet. 'I do not want to defy the fate. I do not go with to Boston', according to the ex-international. In the stadium of New England Revolution, it went wrong after all a year ago. 'Only a week from now hope I that the coach home against Philadelphia Union an occupation on me can do.'

O Danny Koevermans Koevermans Koevermans Koevermans.

Derko
05-23-2013, 08:53 PM
Derko, the return to the Fortress, hard to beat at home is a must for me. This is what I hope to see, to be be confident that this is the right coach.

You've got that one right, I am with you Trane

T-boy
05-23-2013, 10:08 PM
I think a lot of the 'Fortress' had to with the fact that it was turf...

This, plus we (the fans) made it a very intimidating place to come and play for the opponents. We were loud, obnoxious, threatening and aggresive. All that has now gone. The south east corner does an ok job, but we are like a quiet kitten purring in comparison to the first 2 to 3 seasons where we sounded like a wild lion looking for blood.

trane
05-24-2013, 09:50 AM
^ I agree. But allot of that support was wasted on crap performances. Hence the new atmosphere.

Haddy
05-24-2013, 10:11 AM
This, plus we (the fans) made it a very intimidating place to come and play for the opponents. We were loud, obnoxious, threatening and aggresive. All that has now gone. The south east corner does an ok job, but we are like a quiet kitten purring in comparison to the first 2 to 3 seasons where we sounded like a wild lion looking for blood.

Sad to say this is very true. I hope BMO is a fortress again some time soon.

In the SW corner (118-119), we fed off the energy from RPB and U-Sec. You folks were an inspiration to the whole stadium. TRN had their drums going in 118 and we sang loud and proud non-stop for a solid few years. But each year the energy slowly dwindled. Now the drums might start at half-time, if they start at all. We act like a deflated balloon, tossed to the ground and walked all over. We lost our voices and spend the whole time grumpy.

Here's to better days on the horizon.

BuSaPuNk
05-24-2013, 11:50 AM
Sad to say this is very true. I hope BMO is a fortress again some time soon.

In the SW corner (118-119), we fed off the energy from RPB and U-Sec. You folks were an inspiration to the whole stadium. TRN had their drums going in 118 and we sang loud and proud non-stop for a solid few years. But each year the energy slowly dwindled. Now the drums might start at half-time, if they start at all. We act like a deflated balloon, tossed to the ground and walked all over. We lost our voices and spend the whole time grumpy.

Here's to better days on the horizon.

I think we all feel the difference than years past. That's why me and Flush are bringing plans for a Mashup at the GO station or the Salt Lake game. As well were looking to get alot of two sticks banners and such going in the next few weeks. Details will be posted soon.

FreekAce
05-24-2013, 12:56 PM
After ten months forced at the zijlaan stands to come to stamp Danny Koevermans defense in action for Toronto FC. The attacker anticipates self clearly its rentree in the American competition.


Koevermans hit in July geblesseerd during the competition against New England Revolution. After a knee operation, he had to have months revalideren. Past Saturday he made its comeback with the promises of Toronto FC against Columbus Crew.


'It felt delightfully', wanted to begin Koevermans this week on the website of its club back on its rentree within the lines. 'I feel prevent me as a small child. I am can move and clench so fortunately again on to hit. It is fantastic.'


'Through the defeat was had to work one bad day, but for me personal one victory after ten months hard. I am fed up of it that the training of today again past is.'



Koevermans want to walk self calliper rule enough for a rentree in the head power of Toronto FC, but late the next competition yet. 'I do not want to defy the fate. I do not go with to Boston', according to the ex-international. In the stadium of New England Revolution, it went wrong after all a year ago. 'Only a week from now hope I that the coach home against Philadelphia Union an occupation on me can do.'

O Danny Koevermans Koevermans Koevermans Koevermans.

as someone who's native language is Dutch, that translation gives me a headache.

T-boy
05-24-2013, 01:33 PM
^ I agree. But allot of that support was wasted on crap performances. Hence the new atmosphere.

It goes in circles really - crap performances dwindle the crowd enthusiasm - then lack of noise from the crowd don't really pump up our team or scare the opponents. Now we have a limp crowd AND team.

I know we can't really control much of the on field activity, but we sure can put all our efforts into bringing back that crazy intimidating atmosphere to BMO once again.

Gilberto9
05-24-2013, 02:05 PM
I remember U SECTOR used to be loud.. they're invisible now. The south east of the stadium is the only source of noise.

Dreadlocks
05-24-2013, 03:12 PM
On the thread topic, I give Nelson AND Payne one FULL season after the summer transfer window to show the results. I keep hearing that we need better players. Well this will give them 4 windows.

At the end of the coming transfer window they should have their 'nucleus' in place and they'll have some time to gel. The winter and next summers window should be to add complimentary pieces to push them over the top.

So reopen this thread in August or Sept 2014 and we'll see where things are.

Hitcho
05-24-2013, 04:34 PM
We've tried hiring and firing players and coaches at will in an effort to turn things around quickly. It hasn't worked. We still suck. I would rather keep this coach and suck than go through another change of coaching regime and playing squad and still suck.

If we give someone more than 2/3 of a season then he might actually settle into the role and do well. All good clubs are built on stability and embedding a system and ethos from the ground up in order for it to be effective. You can't do that in half a season or even a full season. It takes time. A gap between transfer windows is a useless amount of time to give someone to turn an entire club around. This club's single biggest problem has been its insistency on panicked regime changes. We got burned by Mo and have never recovered - even now his legacy is still poisoning us.

I would like to see the FO give someone a real chance at overhauling the club. I think Payne will do that and I hope he does. Who knows? It might work. Wouldn't it be nice to find out though instead of reaching for the reset button again?

DoubleUp
05-24-2013, 04:46 PM
What kind of tactics would you play with these players? They aren't exactly Barcelona. Winter found that out fast enough, lol. What I've said all along is judge Nelsen once he has a team, not of quick fixes, but one that he and Payne feel at least somewhat comfortable with. Nelsen might be crap, he might be great, but you can't possibly tell at this point. The only thing you do hear is the tremendous respect that players have for him. That's something positive to put at least a little hope in.


I disagree!. With the talent in this team Atm I think with Winter we would be playing "Football" and Winning.


I like Nelsen('s character) as well, I like that he plays an uptempo style on defence and the boys always come flying out of the gates. But his actual tactical setup/system is lacking.

To take some blame off Nelsen,the whole coaching staff as no real coaching experience at any level.

If people say the supporters are playing football manager,! then guess what the coaching staff is essentially doing.:rolleyes:


I will re-state that the team prep/fitness etc is top notch, but the tactical component is missing.


I am willing to continue to support the staff if they maximize their players potential and stop trying to force them to play a style of football that doesnt mesh with the players playing style.

I will say this!. The team can play more of possession game than we currently do atm, we have the talent and enough footy brains in our veterans to get it done.(dont be fooled by the "we dont have the players" argument,maybe before but not now!)


With the Window in August, there no excuse too not look like a better team and gets some points as well.:scarf:

billyfly
05-25-2013, 08:38 PM
Another week gone without results.

trane
05-26-2013, 11:38 AM
No results, and it is hard to point at tangible improvement, as a squad. This is what I am worried about 5-10 or more performances like this, no results no improvement, we cannot not ask questions. This we should keep a poor coach for the sake of continuity makes no sense, it simply means we stay the same.

Again I am not of the Nelsen bandwagon yet. I am ready to even wait for the next transfer window, but I am not sure who do you bring in that would change things substantially. A player at each position, at the back, at the mid, at forward might, or a really top class CDM to help both at the back and organizing going forward, like Fringgs did for us, but that only lasted so long.

jloome
05-26-2013, 01:08 PM
No results, and it is hard to point at tangible improvement, as a squad. This is what I am worried about 5-10 or more performances like this, no results no improvement, we cannot not ask questions. This we should keep a poor coach for the sake of continuity makes no sense, it simply means we stay the same.

Again I am not of the Nelsen bandwagon yet. I am ready to even wait for the next transfer window, but I am not sure who do you bring in that would change things substantially. A player at each position, at the back, at the mid, at forward might, or a really top class CDM to help both at the back and organizing going forward, like Fringgs did for us, but that only lasted so long.

To me, it wouldn't matter, if we kept playing a wing-based counterattack with no time of possession until we're behind. Our striker yesterday was 5-foot-fuck-all Robert Earnshaw yesterday, and yet until the second half, when Osorio came in and created, we were continually dumping the ball down the wings. To what end? A cross? To Earnshaw, a fox-in-the-box?

I like Nelsen's attitude, and Payne. But if we're like this at the end of the season, it will be because all of the responsibility for change is once again laid on the players, and no one reacts to the lack of tactical acumen until too late.

Richard
05-26-2013, 01:15 PM
I don't think were going to see tangible improvement, it wont matter as half of these players are not returning next season. Next season essentially starts from zero again with no team chemistry, I don't think we will nearly get the players needed this summer window.

trane
05-26-2013, 04:10 PM
To me, it wouldn't matter, if we kept playing a wing-based counterattack with no time of possession until we're behind. Our striker yesterday was 5-foot-fuck-all Robert Earnshaw yesterday, and yet until the second half, when Osorio came in and created, we were continually dumping the ball down the wings. To what end? A cross? To Earnshaw, a fox-in-the-box?

I like Nelsen's attitude, and Payne. But if we're like this at the end of the season, it will be because all of the responsibility for change is once again laid on the players, and no one reacts to the lack of tactical acumen until too late.

You know I agree with you. I am trying to be positive. But I agree 100%.

brad
05-26-2013, 10:22 PM
This, plus we (the fans) made it a very intimidating place to come and play for the opponents. We were loud, obnoxious, threatening and aggresive. All that has now gone. The south east corner does an ok job, but we are like a quiet kitten purring in comparison to the first 2 to 3 seasons where we sounded like a wild lion looking for blood.

This - plus we were also the first team in the league to really do the above. I suspect a lot of the players were not used to playing in a hostile environment. It's much more common place now and likely less effective as a result.

Hitcho
05-27-2013, 10:18 AM
This is what I am worried about 5-10 or more performances like this, no results no improvement, we cannot not ask questions. This we should keep a poor coach for the sake of continuity makes no sense, it simply means we stay the same.

How can you possibly judge a coach in just 5-10 games more? No coach in the world could come in and turn this club around in that period of time. This type of attitude has been a huge factor in our continued stay at the foot of the league. Anselmi kept firing coaches and looking for a quick fix without giving anyone a chance to bed in. Do you really want to continue that trend and fire another coach? This season is toast. So what if we don't improve radically in the next 5 games? If we fire Nelsen after that, then someone else comes in and we sell half the squad in the off-season, and then by this time next year the new coach is playing without a settled squad or set of tactics and then what - we just repeat the whole sorry saga all over again? Sound familiar?

You have to give somebody time to build at some point. Realistically a coach needs at least a season, and probably two, to start to turn things around. You have to build a squad, get them used to each other and your set up, get the academy kids playing the same way to blood in young players who are coming through, turn around old hands into what may be a new style of play, get your coaches on the same page as each other and the players. No way can that be achieved in half a season.


To me, it wouldn't matter, if we kept playing a wing-based counterattack with no time of possession until we're behind. Our striker yesterday was 5-foot-fuck-all Robert Earnshaw yesterday, and yet until the second half, when Osorio came in and created, we were continually dumping the ball down the wings. To what end? A cross? To Earnshaw, a fox-in-the-box?

I like Nelsen's attitude, and Payne. But if we're like this at the end of the season, it will be because all of the responsibility for change is once again laid on the players, and no one reacts to the lack of tactical acumen until too late.

This makes a lot more sense in terms of critiquing the coach, but I still think we have to give someone time to build a squad before we judge how they play. MLS is a funny creature - it's not like taking over a Premier League club and buying whoever you want. A lot of trades seem to get made with a view to moving people on for other players a window or two down the line, or just acquiring rights because they give some hidden value in terms of allcoation, DP or international spots, etc and in the meantime you have to sit with those players on your roster. I imagine it would take a minimum of three seasons to take over an MLS side and even get close to the kind of playing squad you really want, if you have to build from scratch which with TFC you clearly do.

Bottom line - it's pointless to judge a coach after half a season, and probably before the end of his second season. If after 2 straight years we've made zero progress, then sure call for the guy to be fired. But if we keep sacking coaches after less than a season in charge, then we will never see a meaningul turnaround in our fortunes and the cycle will just continue indefinitely. Six years of constant resets is enough for me. Let's try and be patient and see where this goes. We're going to suck anyway in the short term, so what difference does it make?

Oldtimer
05-27-2013, 11:29 AM
Another week gone without results.

Panic~! Fire the coach!

Because that's worked so well over the last 6 years,

lanarkist
05-27-2013, 01:25 PM
I feel as if far too many want to act and react in terms of personnel as if we were a top flight European club, where one poor season is an unacceptable outcome. If we were in fact a powerhouse, whether it be an MLS equivalent of City, Chelsea, Real, etc... I could understand the desire to ensure that every season is as competitive as those past. But when we have no set style that we expect our Managers to embrace and build upon, nor a model in place where we can evaluate whether the Manager in question fits our style and will be a success moving forward or needs to be replaced, we need to temper our willingness to sack anyone and everyone.

I will never advocate for a long leash or a blind eye to failure, but as a Man U fan I can't help but realize the value of patience (waiting out Sir Alex and not sacking him) as well as the importance of setting up a style of play so that the replacement fits that model and not simply the biggest or shiniest name available (Moyes vs Mourinho/Pep/Klopp/etc...). I know any comparison to ManU isn't fair or reasonable, but United are hardly the only organizations to embrace consistency.

Torontotonto
05-27-2013, 07:17 PM
To all those who seem not to want a coaching change not matter what the rest of the season looks like, are you not tiered of losing more? Again we have not been a bad team because of the coaching changes, we have had so many coaching changes, ( for the most part) because none of the coaches have been able to turn this team around. Giving another coach two years or more just because will not necessarily make him into a great coach in year three. If Nelsen goes the entire year with no points, we regress both in attacking and defending WHY bring him back next year?

Again I am not calling for his firing, but lets just be vigilant, but not unresonable.

Agreed Trane
Don't know what the hell you do when you have 1 win in the past 26 MLS games since last July 18, 2012.
This is not about a coaching change, it's bigger than that.
SSH 7 years in paying money for this circus, never mind the 50% discount.
Right now it's not worth the price of admission.

:facepalm:

Yagbod
05-27-2013, 11:14 PM
This will be the 'new low' that we point to we won't win until at least July 20. That way there will be a terrible calling card for them again this year.

Last year it was the winless start, every year is a new number with no playoffs, etc...

gate7
05-27-2013, 11:29 PM
Cochrane still around??? hes the curse.:prrr:

trane
05-29-2013, 04:12 PM
How can you possibly judge a coach in just 5-10 games more? No coach in the world could come in and turn this club around in that period of time. This type of attitude has been a huge factor in our continued stay at the foot of the league. Anselmi kept firing coaches and looking for a quick fix without giving anyone a chance to bed in. Do you really want to continue that trend and fire another coach? This season is toast. So what if we don't improve radically in the next 5 games? If we fire Nelsen after that, then someone else comes in and we sell half the squad in the off-season, and then by this time next year the new coach is playing without a settled squad or set of tactics and then what - we just repeat the whole sorry saga all over again? Sound familiar?

You have to give somebody time to build at some point. Realistically a coach needs at least a season, and probably two, to start to turn things around. You have to build a squad, get them used to each other and your set up, get the academy kids playing the same way to blood in young players who are coming through, turn around old hands into what may be a new style of play, get your coaches on the same page as each other and the players. No way can that be achieved in half a season.



This makes a lot more sense in terms of critiquing the coach, but I still think we have to give someone time to build a squad before we judge how they play. MLS is a funny creature - it's not like taking over a Premier League club and buying whoever you want. A lot of trades seem to get made with a view to moving people on for other players a window or two down the line, or just acquiring rights because they give some hidden value in terms of allcoation, DP or international spots, etc and in the meantime you have to sit with those players on your roster. I imagine it would take a minimum of three seasons to take over an MLS side and even get close to the kind of playing squad you really want, if you have to build from scratch which with TFC you clearly do.

Bottom line - it's pointless to judge a coach after half a season, and probably before the end of his second season. If after 2 straight years we've made zero progress, then sure call for the guy to be fired. But if we keep sacking coaches after less than a season in charge, then we will never see a meaningul turnaround in our fortunes and the cycle will just continue indefinitely. Six years of constant resets is enough for me. Let's try and be patient and see where this goes. We're going to suck anyway in the short term, so what difference does it make?

No one is arguing that the team should be turned around in 5-10 games, what I have said that I would like to see better play and/or some results in the next 5-10 games, so that we can confidently keep Nelsen as a coach going into 2014. If things fo not start improving by the end of the seasons, then there is great reasons to doubt in Nelsen holding on to the job for next year.

trane
05-29-2013, 04:13 PM
Panic~! Fire the coach!

Because that's worked so well over the last 6 years,

The problem in the last 6 years has not been that we have fired coaches, but that we have not had a coach who was up to the task. Again there is no logic to give a coach time no matter how poorly he is doing in.

69Chevy396
05-29-2013, 08:22 PM
Philly recruited an experienced manager and they are demonstrably better than us.

Oldtimer
05-30-2013, 08:09 AM
Philly recruited an experienced manager and they are demonstrably better than us.

Philly doesn't have a record of firing their coach every year for 7 years. People actually want to go there.

Oldtimer
05-30-2013, 08:10 AM
The problem in the last 6 years has not been that we have fired coaches, but that we have not had a coach who was up to the task. Again there is no logic to give a coach time no matter how poorly he is doing in.

The problem is we had several coaches who might have worked out if we had given them enough time. I especially would have like Chris Cummins to have had a couple of seasons, and who knows really why JC left? Maybe even Preki could have turned his team around given time.

BuSaPuNk
05-30-2013, 11:22 AM
^ I'd agree.

Cummings and Carver would have made good coaches with a few more years getting there players and figuring out the leauge better. We have to stop not only the player carousel but the manager carousel as well.

Fort York Redcoat
05-30-2013, 11:52 AM
No patience from fans makes no patience from management. It will be luck and not good planning that will turn this team around. Luck in a good aquisition that yields immediately to make several others that do the same. It's all that people have patience for.


I'm not saying it's impossible with the bankroll we have but it means we'll be buying most of our success instead of a more stable, slow build.

ManUtd4ever
05-30-2013, 01:19 PM
One win in the last 26 league games. Patience? Ownership can go fuck themselves. It's a testament to the patience of our fanbase that BMO Field hasn't been burned down to the ground yet.

Abou Sky
05-30-2013, 01:34 PM
One win in the last 26 league games. Patience? Ownership can go fuck themselves. It's a testament to the patience of our fanbase that BMO Field hasn't been burned down to the ground yet.

He has you there Pete :)

Fort York Redcoat
05-30-2013, 02:00 PM
One win in the last 26 league games. Patience? Ownership can go fuck themselves. It's a testament to the patience of our fanbase that BMO Field hasn't been burned down to the ground yet.

The point was being made that if mgmt had more patience we may have kept Carver, Cummings and Winter for longer and seen something. They responded and now it compounds the issue. I know better than to ask fans for patience today.

tfcleeds
05-30-2013, 02:03 PM
But it's pointless bringing Carver and Cummins into the discussion. Neither of them were fired. Carver up and left because he was frustrated with MLS (although who knows what was really going on behind the scenes with Mo) and Cummins left for family reasons.

ManUtd4ever
05-30-2013, 02:06 PM
The point was being made that if mgmt had more patience we may have kept Carver, Cummings and Winter for longer and seen something. They responded and now it compounds the issue. I know better than to ask fans for patience today.

No worries, I wasn't taking a shot at you. It's just that the term 'patience' with regards to this franchise has taken on a new meaning for those of us that still bother to support this club.

Fort York Redcoat
05-30-2013, 02:28 PM
But it's pointless bringing Carver and Cummins into the discussion. Neither of them were fired. Carver up and left because he was frustrated with MLS (although who knows what was really going on behind the scenes with Mo) and Cummins left for family reasons.

Right. I forget what the official lines are sometimes. My bad. No sarcasm.

ManUtd4ever
05-30-2013, 02:35 PM
In the absence of tangible results, I would accept reasonable cause for optimism. Unfortunately, after the team started the season fairly well, the team has progressively worsened.

tfcleeds
05-30-2013, 02:38 PM
Right. I forget what the official lines are sometimes. My bad. No sarcasm.Wasn't singling you out either Pete, just the idea that's been mentioned by a number of posters that we should have given Carver or Cummins more time. Well, they didn't really give us that chance! Believe me, who knows where we might be today had either of them still been around.

jloome
05-30-2013, 06:26 PM
In the absence of tangible results, I would accept reasonable cause for optimism. Unfortunately, after the team started the season fairly well, the team has progressively worsened.

Worsened, and so far Payne hasn't managed to land anyone except Laba. Everyone else has either flamed out or they've already announced the loans won't be continued (except Earnie, who's a good striker, but patchy).

Again, it might just be a massive underestimation of how little they would have to work with when they got to Toronto, but it seems this whole season has been treated like an experiment in dissecting problems with the goal of addressing them by next year. One more good reason for Payne to shut the fuck up about the playoffs being possible.

trane
05-30-2013, 06:47 PM
^ As much as I thought we should have tried to make the playoffs this year, at this point, we would need a miracle to do it. I am all for setting goals, but not unrealistic ones.

I would have agree that it was realistic at the start of the season, as I believe a well organized team WITH a couple of key attacking players COULD always make the playoffs in this league, but now it is silly, unless we get 3 major, major signing, AND we start getting some points soon, neither of which seems likely to happen.

trane
05-30-2013, 06:52 PM
But it's pointless bringing Carver and Cummins into the discussion. Neither of them were fired. Carver up and left because he was frustrated with MLS (although who knows what was really going on behind the scenes with Mo) and Cummins left for family reasons.

Exactly, Cummins to me is the only coach that acctualy showed promise. Carver lost it, for many reasons. I love defensive football and I supported Preki at first, but he did lose the plot, and his football was not well organized tactically smart defend first then counter football, it was 10 men behind the ball and then hope for the best when you get the ball.

I admit we looked good in the CL with him, but by mid season he had lost it.

SiguenzaFC
05-30-2013, 07:15 PM
As the weather gets warmer, the team always gets better; historically we are a slow team at the beginning of the season. With that said, according to Payne during this morning's interview with the Morning Show, he does not expect us to reach the playoffs until next year.

Furthermore, I am unconvinced by Nelsen and his game tactics and formations, but maybe he smartens up and picks up a few a lessons along the way. He has to trust his players, motivate them properly and prepare them physically and tactically for every team individually. God speed

Dave67
05-31-2013, 01:41 PM
Playoffs are laughable for this year. Vancouver snuck in with 43 points last year. We'd need 1.5 points per game to get to 43 points this year. If the number is 53 (every team other than Vancouver had 53 or more) then we'd need almost 2 PPG. So that ain't likely going to happen but I'd definitely be back in the stands more if it did.

Realistically I think the next 24 games are going to be a chance for the club to prove themselves to us so they can ask for a higher season ticket price next year. Hell they probably have to prove themselves to the fans just to get people to pay year 1 pricing again next year.

CoachGT
05-31-2013, 04:21 PM
I've got to admit that the comments from Nelsen and Payne drive me nuts more than anything. I'm not expecting much anymore, hell, if they show up and play 60 minutes that's a plus. But enough comments about playoffs. Or being almost there. Stop trying to create any kind of hype, because frankly, it will get blown back in your face.

Rudy
05-31-2013, 08:22 PM
One win in the last 26 league games. Patience? Ownership can go fuck themselves. It's a testament to the patience of our fanbase that BMO Field hasn't been burned down to the ground yet.

Is this really true? TFC has won one game in 26 MLS games???

Ivy
05-31-2013, 08:32 PM
Is this really true? TFC has won one game in 26 MLS games???

TFC only won 6 games in the last 2 seasons... but its not fair to give this management team shit for something that they had no control over. I have trust in these guys more than I've had for any of the previous, simply because EVERYBODY says they have a plan, they have good characters, but they only need time. They're talking about TFC being a different team after the summer window, and that will be the time to judge them. With half a transfer window, no cap space, outrageous contracts, and defenders playing strikers, what do you expect them to do?

james
06-02-2013, 09:12 PM
I don't think you can fire any more coaches. To many coaches have been fired that makes you wonder, can any coach help this team improve?? doe's firing coaches mid season get us anywhere?? There is other reasons a team can be a constant failure other then just blaming coaches for the bad performance. It is time to look at other ways to improve this team by either letting the team grow and improve over a long period of time or look at who is working for this team in different areas from behind the scenes, maybe that is the where the real problem is.

james
06-02-2013, 09:18 PM
Playoffs are laughable for this year. Vancouver snuck in with 43 points last year. We'd need 1.5 points per game to get to 43 points this year. If the number is 53 (every team other than Vancouver had 53 or more) then we'd need almost 2 PPG. So that ain't likely going to happen but I'd definitely be back in the stands more if it did.

Realistically I think the next 24 games are going to be a chance for the club to prove themselves to us so they can ask for a higher season ticket price next year. Hell they probably have to prove themselves to the fans just to get people to pay year 1 pricing again next year.

Prices did drop this year, aren't some sections currently at the same price of year 1? anyways I don't think they can raise prices for quite some time, they are having trouble selling tickets currently, on average it seems like the stadium is 3/4 full, sometimes even less. It can even be hard to give tickets away sometimes.

Dave67
06-03-2013, 09:52 AM
Prices did drop this year, aren't some sections currently at the same price of year 1? anyways I don't think they can raise prices for quite some time, they are having trouble selling tickets currently, on average it seems like the stadium is 3/4 full, sometimes even less. It can even be hard to give tickets away sometimes.

Yes. I meant to say 'higher price than the current price'. I think the club needs to show a continuing trend of improvement over the remaining games to increase over current (year 1) pricing. I can't see any realistic scenario where people would buy back in at last years prices.

OgtheDim
06-03-2013, 11:42 AM
Could be worse.


The Blue Jays


Imagine having to go through 4.5 months of playing every day, talking to the press every day, knowing you were supposed to win and instead your goal is to get to above .500 so the increased ticket season base won't go through the floor.

ag futbol
06-03-2013, 10:53 PM
Right. I forget what the official lines are sometimes. My bad. No sarcasm.
^Yep!

I know it's a message board and the nuanced details of TFC's past failures sometimes need to be distilled down to something that's less than 10,000 words, but when you are as bad as TFC has been it's a lot more complicated than simply giving a coach time.

Briefly: Mo Johnston tains the view of everything prior to Aron Winter. He's still the primary reason why this organization is as bad as it is today. If you want to go higher-level than that, you can talk about Anselmi / Bernier etc.. being a bunch of clueless idiots who are woefully incapable of providing oversight to people on the technical side.