Was Payne's Public Dressing Down of the Players a Good Idea?

[Canary10]

Kevin Payne basically called out all but maybe two or three players on the team yesterday. No one was named by name, but we can obviously infer some things. So my question is, was this a good idea to do so publicly? I know personally I would respond to that kind of thing with a fuck you, I'll show you and play my ass off to prove him wrong. Others might not. Jason DeVos tweeted afterward that calling out the players in public is bad for "team chemistry." I can see that point, and he knows more about what it takes to build a cohesive professional team than any of us. But was Payne justified? Curious to hear what everyone thinks.

[OgtheDim]

His use of "one or two" went too far. More like 4 or 5. Regardless, he shouldn't have said that bit at all - don't give a number. Just say "some of our guys".

But, what are they going to say in response? "He didn't respect us!" They havn't done the job. Its obvious. That to me was the bigger take away from what Payne said. People either can not, or can not yet, do the necessary job; and others are and will be brought in to do that job.

[Oldtimer]

Jason DeVos was a great player. He's never managed.

if you want to look at a great manager, ask yourself, would a Ferguson or a Capello do that in these circumstances? The answer is: absolutely they would! No question. Sometimes the "hairdryer treatment" is called for.

Coddling players' egos is sometimes the right thing to do, sometimes they need to be told to step up, or else!

Anyways, it's clear that the team problem is lack of quality, it's not like Payne is revealing some great secret.

[Phil]

For me, I look at it and think these guys have had the behind the scenes talk and their response obviously didn't impress so its next level - talk openly about it.

Most of us have figured out, publically complained about players and effort, for them to do post game interviews and say 'everything is fine' just pisses us off even more. I don't agree with the public aspect of this, but I do understand why it happens - credibility. It does blow me away a bit that Payne is realizing just now how bad some parts of this team really is.

[brad]

Jason DeVos was a great player. He's never managed.

if you want to look at a great manager, ask yourself, would a Ferguson or a Capello do that in these circumstances? The answer is: absolutely they would! No question. Sometimes the "hairdryer treatment" is called for.

Ferguson never did it in public. In an interview last week with Paul Scholes (by Gary Neville) he asked Paul what he admired most about Fergie (or what his best trait was - forget the wording) and he talked about how it was the fact that he would always stand by his players in public. He would dress them down behind closed doors when needed, but never, ever in public. Others have said the same about him.

I am going to go with the opinion that what he did is wrong - based on what the best of the best do, and also based on on how DeVos responded.

Public complaining seems more like passing the buck (hey - not my fault) than a motivational tactic.

[Canary10]

Jason DeVos was a great player. He's never managed.

if you want to look at a great manager, ask yourself, would a Ferguson or a Capello do that in these circumstances? The answer is: absolutely they would! No question. Sometimes the "hairdryer treatment" is called for.

Coddling players' egos is sometimes the right thing to do, sometimes they need to be told to step up, or else!

Anyways, it's clear that the team problem is lack of quality, it's not like Payne is revealing some great secret.

Just being a player in that situation gives him more knowledge of what happens to a team than most of would have. Of course he might just have an axe to grind too. Who knows.

I'm not sure what I think. But I tend to think that players that don't react positively to it (ie. step it up and fight for their place) aren't needed on this team anyway. I look at Montreal and how they fight for every point. Even down 2-0 to the Red Bulls they were still trying to claw back in time added. Didn't win, but they got one back. I don't see that with our team. I think we've settled to long with we played ok, we nearly won, there are positives to take from this game, etc....Maybe this was needed.

[Canary10]

Ferguson never did it in public. In an interview last week with Paul Scholes (by Gary Neville) he asked Paul what he admired most about Fergie (or what his best trait was - forget the wording) and he talked about how it was the fact that he would always stand by his players in public. He would dress them down behind closed doors when needed, but never, ever in public. Others have said the same about him.

I am going to go with the opinion that what he did is wrong - based on what the best of the best do, and also based on on how DeVos responded.

SAF has dressed down Rooney very publicly more than once. He stands by certain players, but not all players. I don't know if I agree with that assessment completely.

[Yohan]

General rule is that you praise in public, criticize in private. Singling out and embarrassing anyone in public rarely gets you the result you want. Because people do have their pride and self respect, and you destroying that in public will likely cause resentment and make that person think you don't care for that person. And his peers will lose respect for that person as well.

Rarely though, public criticism does get results, especially when private criticism failed to get the results you want, and that person(s) aren't performing to the standard you have set. Kevin Payne gave a collective tongue lashing, but he didn't name names. It was a collective public criticism which is slightly better than singling people out.

And if Nelsen and Payne play this right, they can do the 'good cop, bad cop' routine. But we'll see if this episode gets TFC players motivated or not. But after 2 months of shitting the bed, something drastic has to be done, because it seems like other methods aren't working. You don't perform to the standard, you get cut sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[spark]

Jason DeVos tweeted afterward that calling out the players in public is bad for "team chemistry." I can see that point, and he knows more about what it takes to build a cohesive professional team than any of us. But was Payne justified? Curious to hear what everyone thinks.

How so? He's never coached, never been in management, never been an executive at a professional club - never built a team or had to deal/be responsible with characters. It is interesting as well he lists coaches but nowhere on the list is Osiek.

Payne's been around the block. We can discuss his approach but let's not forget 6-10 months ago we were getting players called out by name. I don't really see what the big deal is in him voicing what everyone else and their dog already knows and has been discussing for the last 2-3 weeks.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Is it as bad as your star player coming out in the media and saying you are the worst team in the world?

[Canary10]

How so? He's never coached, never been in management, never been an executive at a professional club - never built a team or had to deal/be responsible with characters. It is interesting as well he lists coaches but nowhere on the list is Osiek.

Payne's been around the block. We can discuss his approach but let's not forget 6-10 months ago we were getting players called out by name. I don't really see what the big deal is in him voicing what everyone else and their dog already knows and has been discussing for the last 2-3 weeks.

Because he was a professional footballer. He has more insight into how those words affect the dressing room and players of a professional football team than any of us do. Unless there are some former EPLers lurking on the board. I'm not saying he's right, but none of us were in the situation of being a player at that level. He was.

[ag futbol]

I have a preference for doing it behind doors too, but I wouldn't completely rule out the public approach.

We gloss over it a bit, but a few of the guys on team (especially one or two of the ones on loan) are major disappointments

[ag futbol]

Because he was a professional footballer. He has more insight into how those words affect the dressing room and players of a professional football team than any of us do. Unless there are some former EPLers lurking on the board. I'm not saying he's right, but none of us were in the situation of being a player at that level. He was.
But this is little more than an appeal to authority. By this logic we can't question anybody or speculate on anything. Agreed, it is a fair counterpoint to the argument of "Jason DeVos has never..." but that doesn't mean his logic is flawless.

While he is one of the better ones, he sometimes comes off as naive with his opinions, especially when it comes to Canadians getting coaching opportunities, etc...

[Yohan]

Because he was a professional footballer. He has more insight into how those words affect the dressing room and players of a professional football team than any of us do. Unless there are some former EPLers lurking on the board. I'm not saying he's right, but none of us were in the situation of being a player at that level. He was.
deVos never coached, but as a pro footballer for many years (and captained teams), he knows how players would like to be treated. Yes, there is too much ego with modern footballers, but the saying 'treat people like you want to be treated' still is valid, regardless of what job you have.

[Canary10]

But this is little more than an appeal to authority. By this logic we can't question anybody or speculate on anything. Agreed, it is a fair counterpoint to the argument of "Jason DeVos has never..." but that doesn't mean his logic is flawless.

While he is one of the better ones, he sometimes comes off as naive with his opinions, especially when it comes to Canadians getting coaching opportunities, etc...

Fuck, I said he might be wrong. But the guy's actually been through this, none of us have, so that does give him some authority and insight. Maybe my experience of giving the girls on my Sport and Social Club team a real dressing down after a poor match is all the authority needed on this topic, but not sure it stacks up to DeVos'.

[spark]

Because he was a professional footballer. He has more insight into how those words affect the dressing room and players of a professional football team than any of us do. Unless there are some former EPLers lurking on the board. I'm not saying he's right, but none of us were in the situation of being a player at that level. He was.

Sorry Canary - I was responding to your point about "De Vos knowing what it takes to build a cohesive professional team" - which might not be what you were getting at, and what I was bolding. I was going directly at that quote and you are right, De Vos knows how that might effect a team/players, but I stand by the bigger picture that he doesn't know how to build a cohesive team because he's never had the shoe on the other foot - that was what I was going for and I might have misunderstood the bigger point.

[Oldtimer]

Just being a player in that situation gives him more knowledge of what happens to a team than most of would have. Of course he might just have an axe to grind too. Who knows.


DeVos has a huge axe to grind. He was angling to get the GM position before Payne was appointed. His campaign was pretty transparent, and played quite heavily on the Maple Syrup factor -- that Toronto's team should be managed by a Canadian. Never mind that he has zero experience.

If you've ever been passed over for a promotion... you tend to think that you could do better than the guy who eventually got it.

[jloome]

Ferguson never did it in public. In an interview last week with Paul Scholes (by Gary Neville) he asked Paul what he admired most about Fergie (or what his best trait was - forget the wording) and he talked about how it was the fact that he would always stand by his players in public. He would dress them down behind closed doors when needed, but never, ever in public. Others have said the same about him.

I am going to go with the opinion that what he did is wrong - based on what the best of the best do, and also based on on how DeVos responded.

Public complaining seems more like passing the buck (hey - not my fault) than a motivational tactic.

Fergie's done it in public before. He was very public with his statements about Beckham being more concerned with celebrity than football. He's flown off the handle lots of times over the years; so has Mourinho.

[Oldtimer]

SAF has dressed down Rooney very publicly more than once. He stands by certain players, but not all players. I don't know if I agree with that assessment completely.

... and Capello publicly dressed down Beckham while coaching RM. It worked.

It's not as unusual as one would think. A good manager uses all the weapons in his arsenal.

In this case Payne was being very general, however the players know who they are and will get the point.

[jloome]

deVos never coached, but as a pro footballer for many years (and captained teams), he knows how players would like to be treated. Yes, there is too much ego with modern footballers, but the saying 'treat people like you want to be treated' still is valid, regardless of what job you have.

That's absolutely not the case. You can work with people for years, that doesn't make you intrinsically in tune with what they want. Maybe his teammates voted him captain for years because he always favored player positions. Ascribing knowledge by association isn't logical. I was a reporter for years, and then a manager of reporters. Didn't help, because people with Asperger's (particularly undiagnosed, as mine was for years) probably shouldn't manage large groups of people. But I had the background. There are always other compounding factors to consider.

[Oldtimer]

That's absolutely not the case. You can work with people for years, that doesn't make you intrinsically in tune with what they want. Maybe his teammates voted him captain for years because he always favored player positions. Ascribing knowledge by association isn't logical. I was a reporter for years, and then a manager of reporters. Didn't help, because people with Asperger's (particularly undiagnosed, as mine was for years) probably shouldn't manage large groups of people. But I had the background. There are always other compounding factors to consider.

That's actually a great analogy. The skills in being a general manager (people management, player evaluation, administrative function) are quite different from those of being team captain (being an example, standing up for your fellow players).

Interestingly enough, although Payne did play semi-pro soccer when he was younger, his actual career was first as a journalist like yourself, then he moved on to administration. He cut his admin teeth in US Soccer, then was heavily involved in the set up of MLS, and then worked for AEG and supervised more than one team (in the early years of MLS, the investors often held multiple teams). You couldn't get more of an MLS insider and someone who is more qualified, or who has more pull with the league than him.

His moving to Toronto was totally engineered from within MLS to save TFC's franchise value from being destroyed by ML$E's incompetence (namely Anselmi, but that's another story).

[trane]

If you call guys out, blame your players game in game out, it is a problem, but once in a while, it is called for. I rely believe that with this system/style we are not far from being a competitive team. BUT we clearly lack that concentration/Drive/focus to put us over the top.

[Abou Sky]

If you call guys out, blame your players game in game out, it is a problem, but once in a while, it is called for. I rely believe that with this system/style we are not far from being a competitive team. BUT we clearly lack that concentration/Drive/focus to put us over the top.

+1

I have coached a lot of kids, in my experience if you tell a kid to work harder, they work harder.

Just make sure that the NEXT thing you say is positive and imo you are on track.

SJ wasn't the first or last game these boys will lose, they need to put their chest out, step up and perform.

[Richard]

The players need to get there shit together. All the new talks of specific player positions needed and loans should be a stronger signal that they are not performing.

[Canary10]

Sorry Canary - I was responding to your point about "De Vos knowing what it takes to build a cohesive professional team" - which might not be what you were getting at, and what I was bolding. I was going directly at that quote and you are right, De Vos knows how that might effect a team/players, but I stand by the bigger picture that he doesn't know how to build a cohesive team because he's never had the shoe on the other foot - that was what I was going for and I might have misunderstood the bigger point.

Yeah, if get it. And I certainly wasn't saying he's right (I argued with him over twitter) but I know enough that you don't dismiss the point of view of a guy who's gone through it from the player's side. Totally agree his big picture thinking can be found wanting.

At any rate, I lean to thinking this was needed. Watching Montreal's will to win compared to ours....well, I don't think we have players that want it as badly, I'll leave it at that.

[ensco]

If Ephraim or Bostock (or whomever) is spitting the bit, that's on Payne/Nelsen, not Ephraim or Bostock. There are significant risks to loans, what a surprise.

It's always a mistake to do this in public. You guys want the world to work differently for athletes, but it doesn't. It's not the way to get results.

You want to give someone the hairdryer, that's what the closed door in the office is for. Embarassing people in public to get results almost always backfires, and is almost always a sign of weakness on the part of the boss.

Anybody who has ever had a managerial role (I mean in life, not just sports) knows this. There may be rare exceptions, but they're rare.

[TOBOR !]

I'd say that publicly acknowledging that you have spoken to some of you players regarding their unacceptable play of late is nothing more than a managerial tactic. Do it and see who responds.

This is not a big deal.

That we're even discussing what Jason De Vos thinks of anything, or comparing Payne to Fergie is just jokes.

[Oldtimer]

I'd say that publicly acknowledging that you have spoken to some of you players regarding their unacceptable play of late is nothing more than a managerial tactic. Do it and see who responds.

This is not a big deal.

That we're even discussing what Jason De Vos thinks of anything, or comparing Payne to Fergie is just jokes.

No one's comparing Payne to Fergie. Read the original comment:



if you want to look at a great manager, ask yourself, would a Ferguson or a Capello do that in these circumstances?

You want to use a great manager as a role model of how to handle situations, just like great players are role models for young players. If a young player says "what would Messi do in a similar situation" it doesn't mean he's delusionally thinking he's as good as Messi.

[TFC07]

In this case, yes it's good Payne came out and let players know their time could be up if they don't start performing. It doesn't hurt once in a while to do something like this to fire up the players and coaching staff.

[flatpicker]

I have a preference for doing it behind doors too, but I wouldn't completely rule out the public approach.



Wait... what are you talking about?!!! Sicko!!!
:smilewinkgrin:

[Suds]

General rule is that you praise in public, criticize in private. Singling out and embarrassing anyone in public rarely gets you the result you want. Because people do have their pride and self respect, and you destroying that in public will likely cause resentment and make that person think you don't care for that person. And his peers will lose respect for that person as well.

Rarely though, public criticism does get results, especially when private criticism failed to get the results you want, and that person(s) aren't performing to the standard you have set. Kevin Payne gave a collective tongue lashing, but he didn't name names. It was a collective public criticism which is slightly better than singling people out.

...

Have to agree with both statements.

I have no issue with calling the whole team out in public with a 'performance is not good enough' type comment. But in this case, Payne was as close to singling players out without using names. If I put myself in the dressing room as a player I don't think that goes over well with me. (regardless if I'm the one called out or not)

Become a top employer where people want to work and you'll attract good talent and get good results. Word gets out that a company/manager is not someone good to work for and it makes it harder to attract talent. That can be applied to any work environment.

[ensco]

Is Payne doing this because he's worried about what Leiweke is going to think/do when he gets here?

In March Payne said 2013 was a rebuilding year, that he didn't expect to make the playoffs. But two months later he's bent about dropped points.

[OgtheDim]

I believe there was also a bit of "we have a lot of crud around here from the past" in the whole discussion. He said off the top he was surprised at the amount of people who had bought into the system and at how well the team was playing.

I think part of all this is setting the tone for some significant roster changes in the coming weeks. And, more importantly, to dampen down the expectations of fans.

[Abou Sky]

If Ephraim or Bostock (or whomever) is spitting the bit, that's on Payne/Nelsen, not Ephraim or Bostock. There are significant risks to loans, what a surprise.

It's always a mistake to do this in public. You guys want the world to work differently for athletes, but it doesn't. It's not the way to get results.

You want to give someone the hairdryer, that's what the closed door in the office is for. Embarassing people in public to get results almost always backfires, and is almost always a sign of weakness on the part of the boss.

Anybody who has ever had a managerial role (I mean in life, not just sports) knows this. There may be rare exceptions, but they're rare.

I don't agree ensco, I have near 15 years experience managing people, (yes, started at 20)

I like to think I am pretty good at it. Question is: Would I have done what Payne did?

Answer : Yes, no names were named, normally in a management situation you would have your employees in front of you instead of the media saying 'guys, we are not XXX enough, we need to improve'

You then put some system in place to go faster /better and go from there.

I have fired people for ONE reason only: shit attitudes.

Everything else is forgivable, shit attitudes can't be changed. (I did lay off a number of people in 2008/2009 but that is not firing)

Anyway, he didn't bring guys up on stage and dress them down, imo all was a Ok

[ensco]

^Well, to each his own. I don't think it works, ever. But especially not in elite performance environments.

[Abou Sky]

^Well, to each his own. I don't think it works, ever. But especially not in elite performance environments.

But so often it is a team issue (work/sports) so you can't say 'ensco, come in my office' and explain and do that one at a time for 15 people.

You need to get everyone on the same page.

[DoubleUp]

That's actually a great analogy. The skills in being a general manager (people management, player evaluation, administrative function) are quite different from those of being team captain (being an example, standing up for your fellow players).

Interestingly enough, although Payne did play semi-pro soccer when he was younger, his actual career was first as a journalist like yourself, then he moved on to administration. He cut his admin teeth in US Soccer, then was heavily involved in the set up of MLS, and then worked for AEG and supervised more than one team (in the early years of MLS, the investors often held multiple teams). You couldn't get more of an MLS insider and someone who is more qualified, or who has more pull with the league than him.

His moving to Toronto was totally engineered from within MLS to save TFC's franchise value from being destroyed by ML$E's incompetence (namely Anselmi, but that's another story).



This sounds familiar!.:rolleyes:

Who wants Mcdonlds.???:D

[FluSH]

For me, I look at it and think these guys have had the behind the scenes talk and their response obviously didn't impress so its next level - talk openly about it.

Most of us have figured out, publically complained about players and effort, for them to do post game interviews and say 'everything is fine' just pisses us off even more. I don't agree with the public aspect of this, but I do understand why it happens - credibility. It does blow me away a bit that Payne is realizing just now how bad some parts of this team really is.

good points...

[denime]

If Ephraim or Bostock (or whomever) is spitting the bit, that's on Payne/Nelsen, not Ephraim or Bostock. There are significant risks to loans, what a surprise.

It's always a mistake to do this in public. You guys want the world to work differently for athletes, but it doesn't. It's not the way to get results.

You want to give someone the hairdryer, that's what the closed door in the office is for. Embarassing people in public to get results almost always backfires, and is almost always a sign of weakness on the part of the boss.

Anybody who has ever had a managerial role (I mean in life, not just sports) knows this. There may be rare exceptions, but they're rare.

Agree 100%

There is no difference between office/plant employee and soccer /bball club employee(athlete).

[TOBOR !]

No one's comparing Payne to Fergie.

Perhaps not intentionally, but I see your point.

You're measuring Payne against them, rather than comparing. A subtle difference we'll leave there.

[Richard]

Just a thought here. Are players not told to ignore everything from the media? Of course its foolish to think they wouldnt here about it, just wonder if pro athletes actually read or watch stories about them. For that matter i would be curious to know how many frequent this board.

[brad]

Just a thought here. Are players not told to ignore everything from the media? Of course its foolish to think they wouldnt here about it, just wonder if pro athletes actually read or watch stories about them. For that matter i would be curious to know how many frequent this board.

They should ignore the media, but many do not. As far as players frequenting this board - yes some have in the past for sure. Don't know about now.

[SiguenzaFC]

I would think it'd be hard to ignore the media when you are part of the losing team and your manager is announcing forthcoming changes. Fortunately that's when the cream rises to the top.



if you want to look at a great manager, ask yourself, would a Ferguson or a Capello do that in these circumstances? The answer is: absolutely they would! No question. Sometimes the "hairdryer treatment" is called for.


This was my thought exactly when I watched Ryan Nelsen respond to why Califf has dropped in the pecking order. He wasn't direct, and what he meant to say is that Doneil and Gale are playing better. It reminded me of how Mourinho handled Pepe speaking out on the Casillas exclusion, and how Jose put the onus back on his player by calling him out on his own playing slump.

I appreciate Payne being direct because at the end of the day he is trying to build a winning club, something we haven't witnessed in Toronto in a long time. Being polite and diplomatic may get us friends and connections, but being direct and frank will get us what we want. And we all know what we want, it just seems like we/they are not sure when we allude the point with rhetoric.

[ag futbol]

I watched the KP clip again on TFC TV and it doesn’t come off to me as critical as it’s being described in some quarters. A lot of it is really just matter-of-fact statements. Knowing that results haven’t been good and that will result in change, I don’t think it’s much of a shocker.

Sure it has it’s critical elements, but it should just paint a sobering picture to most of these guys that if they want to stick on this roster, there’s a lot of work to do.

[jloome]

I watched the KP clip again on TFC TV and it doesn’t come off to me as critical as it’s being described in some quarters. A lot of it is really just matter-of-fact statements. Knowing that results haven’t been good and that will result in change, I don’t think it’s much of a shocker.

Sure it has it’s critical elements, but it should just paint a sobering picture to most of these guys that if they want to stick on this roster, there’s a lot of work to do.

It's also a public statement of intent that they've never really made before: you perform here, or you're gone right quick.

Some guys will step up to that, others won't. He's not there to be liked, and the proof is in if it works.

[TorontoGooner]

Absolutely it was a good idea. I dare say that one problem with Toronto sports teams is that the players are rarely held publicly accountable. It's a pretty easy gig being a professional here as very rarely are you going to be slammed in the media for perhaps not performing to your potential. There's normally an article the following day in the paper and then everyone moves on. Players tend to get away with average performances in this city. Everyone moans about the organisations, but not often individual players. Maybe I'm wrong

The simple fact of the matter is the players haven't been performing, so they need embarrassing a bit. If they don't like it, well suck it up, its your job. If you still don't like it, well piss off elsewhere. People blame the club for getting rid of Plata and Avila but they obviously had attitude problems. Perhaps there are still a few players here with the same problem.

Right now the team needs a kick up the arse. I think publicly calling them out was a great idea. As the previous post says, KP is a no nonsense guy who doesn't have time to sugar coat everything. He says what he sees and I like that.

[Cashcleaner]

It's also a public statement of intent that they've never really made before: you perform here, or you're gone right quick.

Some guys will step up to that, others won't. He's not there to be liked, and the proof is in if it works.

Agreed. I don't think there is much we have to analyze here, because the intent is obvious. Whether it will work is up for debate, but the fact is clear that our players need a swift kick in the pants to get them playing a full 90 minutes - and then some. I have no problem with Payne's criticisms - they are completely warranted in my eyes.

And if any player did try to pull some sort of "we're not respected" bullshit, I'd take them to task personally.

[tfcleeds]

Generally not the right idea to criticize in public, but in this case, I feel it was warranted. Do you not think that Nelsen has had his private chats with some players? If those aren't enough to get a fire lit up under some players, maybe this approach is needed. Anyways, he didn't name names, and the players he was referring to know who they are. If they choose not to step it up, they can leave. It's that simple. We've had enough players with this franchise over the years who were just going through the motions, we don't need a bunch more.

[Shakes McQueen]

It's also a public statement of intent that they've never really made before: you perform here, or you're gone right quick.

Some guys will step up to that, others won't. He's not there to be liked, and the proof is in if it works.

Yeah, I'm with you. I didn't see a problem with any of this. Especially if he already talked to them privately.

If a few players aren't pulling their weight, then a public statement about that fact also earns you some respect from the players who ARE pulling their weight. Again - especially if he has talked to them privately.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Is Payne doing this because he's worried about what Leiweke is going to think/do when he gets here?

In March Payne said 2013 was a rebuilding year, that he didn't expect to make the playoffs. But two months later he's bent about dropped points.

Being in a building phase is fine, but if he's going to have any hope of repairing the culture around our team, "building" can't be an excuse for these guys to drop points. He may want to tailor a message of lowered expectations to the fans for this year, but not to the players.

- Scott

[nonc]

People blame the club for getting rid of Plata and Avila but they obviously had attitude problems.

Not to argue with the overall point of the rest of your post, though I don't believe this specifically to be accurate. Plata maybe to a lesser extent but I don't think Avila was a problem player, he was professional for his stay including Mariner benching him the whole season. When some press finally asked about Avila late in the season we got the whole "practice application" routine which was clearly a cover for not liking Avila at all. Preferences aside I don't think you could call his performances uninspired, either.

[ensco]

Being in a building phase is fine, but if he's going to have any hope of repairing the culture around our team, "building" can't be an excuse for these guys to drop points. He may want to tailor a message of lowered expectations to the fans for this year, but not to the players.

- Scott

TV interviews aren't how you tailor a message. They are the main message. Which Payne is changing.

Managers who do this just hurt themselves in the long run.

If the issue is that the players you brought in aren't performing, that's primarily your fault, not their fault. Just stand up and change the players.

[Shakes McQueen]

If the issue is that the players you brought in aren't performing, that's primarily your fault, not their fault. Just stand up and change the players.

But by that reasoning, there's really no reason to ever criticize the way a player is performing... ever. Privately or publicly.

Players occasionally need to be motivated, and have their heads played with, to get the best out of them. Up to a point, of course, beyond which you're better off just replacing them.

- Scott

[nonc]

I don't mind what Payne did there's some merit to it but it's also a calculated distraction from Nelsen.

[ensco]

But by that reasoning, there's really no reason to ever criticize the way a player is performing... ever. Privately or publicly.

Players occasionally need to be motivated, and have their heads played with, to get the best out of them. Up to a point, of course, beyond which you're better off just replacing them.

- Scott


Look back through the thread. My objection is to giving the hairdryer in public, not with giving the hairdryer at all.

It just feels like the lameass tactic of a loser. I hope I am wrong. Kinnear and Arena, for example, know how to show and express dissatisfaction in public, without the namecalling.

[Shakes McQueen]

Look back through the thread. My objection is to giving the hairdryer in public, not with giving the hairdryer at all.

It just feels like the lameass tactic of a loser. I hope I am wrong. Kinnear and Arena, for example, know how to show and express dissatisfaction in public, without the namecalling.

I think managing is an incredibly in-exact science - sometimes calling a player or players out in public works, and sometimes it makes things worse. Sometimes it looks brilliant, and other times, as you said, it just sounds like the flailing of a failing manager, trying to direct blame elsewhere.

Even looking at some of the best managers and coaches in sports, many of them have had a few occasions where they've aired their discontent in public - and far more specifically than Payne did.

I just don't agree with the inherent idea that it's pretty much always a bad tactic. I think it's as valid as any other tactic. Plenty of coaches lose their jobs every year, who never had a bad word to say about their players in public. Plenty of coaches lose their jobs, who did.

In this sense, I think this thread's question is kind of unanswerable right now. If it works, it was a good idea. If it doesn't, then it wasn't. Psychology isn't binary like math, where 4+4=12 is always wrong.

- Scott