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Rudy
05-05-2013, 06:04 PM
TFC and DCU, 9th and 10th in Eastern this week. Was that really a winning choice?

The team needs a BIG signing. Beckham-level. That's the only thing Payne can do to rescue TFC and the future of this sport in this city. Bite the bullet. Get Michael Ballack. Get somebody. What did Laba do yesterday? what did any of the signings Payne brought in on trial or otherwise do last week, last month, 11 games into the season....?

Are we really any better than May 2012 or may 2011, or May 2010 or or? We are no longer running for the Canadian Championship.... the only good thing we had going last year, at least at the national level....

Something MAJOR must happen. Enough of these tiny mickeymouse additions and shuffles..... and really, invest in a sports psychologist soon to try and end the-now-85min complex.....

One more thing.... Plata with two beautiful assists this weekend, and a lively celebration full of character; Sam Cronin scores also this weekend....Nick Labeocca had a great game.... some brilliant trade-aways we have done in our past..... none of our players in today's team have any excitment, life, passion, or character to them - less Koevermans; even Frei, TFC killed the life of him. I miss DeRo, Micon, Plata, .... they played with life and character....

Richard
05-05-2013, 06:39 PM
Just stop. It will take time to clean up the pile of shit TFC is in at the moment. No "Beckham-level" signing will make individual players perform above USL standards, its a team game. Im willing to give Payne a full 3 years to setup his vision, I also do not look forward to any short-sighted player signings if that's what you want.

TFC07
05-05-2013, 06:39 PM
I feel your pain, but I am hopeful in the summer we will get some good players. Just give KP little more time to do his thing.

TFC07
05-05-2013, 06:40 PM
Just stop. It will take time to clean up the pile of shit TFC is in at the moment. No "Beckham-level" signing will make individual players perform above USL standards, its a team game. Im willing to give Payne a full 3 years to setup his vision and do not look forward to any short-sighted player signings.What exactly is Payne's vision?

PopePouri
05-05-2013, 07:04 PM
I actually see improvements on the park and that Koev's return was help us substantially just as any team who plays a direct brand of football requires a big strong no. 9. Maybe it's too simplistic but having him on the park brings more players into the game.

You can lament Plata all you want but I've said it before, he requires a specific system and formation to get the best out of him. He needs to play up top but because of his size, he needs another forward to play off of so RSL was a perfect fit for him. Good luck to him.

Auzzy
05-05-2013, 07:19 PM
First order for TFC: hire a sports psychologist for some of the fans on here. Or maybe a sports psychiatrist.

Ivy
05-05-2013, 07:35 PM
Payne came 5(?) months ago, to a team that was full of less-than-average players. The guy can't simply fire them all and hire "Beckham-level" players... Even if he can find them at a semi reasonable price, most players wouldn't want to come to Toronto - southern state teams have much more appeal.
Give the guy TIME to do things his way - call it vision or whatever you want. If by the end of next year TFC is still in last place, then call for his head.

notthesun
05-05-2013, 07:44 PM
Did you just say you miss Maicon Santos?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouWBqXTE93M

West220Side
05-05-2013, 07:54 PM
TFC and DCU, 9th and 10th in Eastern this week. Was that really a winning choice?

The team needs a BIG signing. Beckham-level. That's the only thing Payne can do to rescue TFC and the future of this sport in this city. Bite the bullet. Get Michael Ballack. Get somebody. What did Laba do yesterday? what did any of the signings Payne brought in on trial or otherwise do last week, last month, 11 games into the season....?

Are we really any better than May 2012 or may 2011, or May 2010 or or? We are no longer running for the Canadian Championship.... the only good thing we had going last year, at least at the national level....

Something MAJOR must happen. Enough of these tiny mickeymouse additions and shuffles..... and really, invest in a sports psychologist soon to try and end the-now-85min complex.....

One more thing.... Plata with two beautiful assists this weekend, and a lively celebration full of character; Sam Cronin scores also this weekend....Nick Labeocca had a great game.... some brilliant trade-aways we have done in our past..... none of our players in today's team have any excitment, life, passion, or character to them - less Koevermans; even Frei, TFC killed the life of him. I miss DeRo, Micon, Plata, .... they played with life and character....

Basically wrote you off from this paragraph. You judged a young 21 year old midfielder on a debut match, in a place he's never been let alone played on the road, where he actually didn't play poorly at all. What did you expect him to score a hattrick?

Then you went on to say we should sign Michael Ballack a 36-year old german attacking midfielder who's retired.

Ivy
05-05-2013, 08:03 PM
Payne should sign German International Torsten Frings.

OgtheDim
05-05-2013, 08:22 PM
Pieces do not make a system.

What we are seeing now are maybe, at best 6 pieces of what will be a starting 11 by this time next season.

Bendik
Laba
Silva
Boss
O'Dea
Ecks

And even then, I can see the last 4 of that list not always being starters next season.

Anybody who is looking for the one piece to make it all better is fooling themselves.

The long term goal is to build a squad that plays a certain way. We are, maybe, 10% of the way there.

T-boy
05-05-2013, 08:27 PM
First order for TFC: hire a sports psychologist for some of the fans on here. Or maybe a sports psychiatrist.

excellent, nice call! :D

__wowza
05-05-2013, 09:19 PM
Anybody who is looking for the one piece to make it all better is fooling themselves.

The long term goal is to build a squad that plays a certain way. We are, maybe, 10% of the way there.

anyone who is looking for the one piece to make it all better is part of the reason we're in this mess to begin with. we've spent half of our existence purposely ignoring long term goals. i'd take a proper structure given the time it needs over a flash in the pan playoff run any day of the week.

ArmenJBX
05-05-2013, 09:38 PM
I'd love a starting lineup with Oliver Kahn in net, Michael Ballack and Torsten Frings in central midfield, and maybe Jurgen Klinsmann up top!

Stryker
05-05-2013, 09:43 PM
All I got from that was blah blah blah we're not improving fast enough. Blah blah blah, why didn't Laba win the game single handedly? Blah blah get Michael Ballack and I burst into laughter and stopped reading there.



TFC and DCU, 9th and 10th in Eastern this week. Was that really a winning choice?

The team needs a BIG signing. Beckham-level. That's the only thing Payne can do to rescue TFC and the future of this sport in this city. Bite the bullet. Get Michael Ballack. Get somebody. What did Laba do yesterday? what did any of the signings Payne brought in on trial or otherwise do last week, last month, 11 games into the season....?

Are we really any better than May 2012 or may 2011, or May 2010 or or? We are no longer running for the Canadian Championship.... the only good thing we had going last year, at least at the national level....

Something MAJOR must happen. Enough of these tiny mickeymouse additions and shuffles..... and really, invest in a sports psychologist soon to try and end the-now-85min complex.....

One more thing.... Plata with two beautiful assists this weekend, and a lively celebration full of character; Sam Cronin scores also this weekend....Nick Labeocca had a great game.... some brilliant trade-aways we have done in our past..... none of our players in today's team have any excitment, life, passion, or character to them - less Koevermans; even Frei, TFC killed the life of him. I miss DeRo, Micon, Plata, .... they played with life and character....

Rudy
05-05-2013, 11:01 PM
Let me then remove all emotions and hopes, and stick to the facts - only recent history; no need to go too far back.

1. Season 7, and still no playoffs
2. Winter was brought in after major restructuring and revamp, and hope was sold of a new day.
3. 2012 - TFC wins mls record of worse performance of all times. "worst team in the world".
4. Payne was brought in after major restructuring and revamp, and hope was sold of a new day.
5. 2013 - TFC about to win record of 80-min complex, and currently in 9th place in easter confernce. 6:0 loss against Saputo's expansion team - the likely new canadian champs.

See a pattern here? More of the same strategies that have been proven to fail, will only lead the same results - more failure. Time for a radical change in strategy.

ag futbol
05-06-2013, 06:52 AM
See a pattern here? More of the same strategies that have been proven to fail, will only lead the same results - more failure. Time for a radical change in strategy.
Well everything is going to look the same if you look at it from 30,000 feet while passing over all kinds of relevant details. TFC got a new manager? Hey TFC got a new manager before too, and they failed then, so they will fail now as well! We need radical change!!

Fort York Redcoat
05-06-2013, 07:21 AM
Let me then remove all emotions and hopes, and stick to the facts - only recent history; no need to go too far back.

1. Season 7, and still no playoffs
2. Winter was brought in after major restructuring and revamp, and hope was sold of a new day.
3. 2012 - TFC wins mls record of worse performance of all times. "worst team in the world".
4. Payne was brought in after major restructuring and revamp, and hope was sold of a new day.
5. 2013 - TFC about to win record of 80-min complex, and currently in 9th place in easter confernce. 6:0 loss against Saputo's expansion team - the likely new canadian champs.

See a pattern here? More of the same strategies that have been proven to fail, will only lead the same results - more failure. Time for a radical change in strategy.


And your radical change is buying one big name player? They still have to play with this team. Other talents have come here and stagnated.

What about getting a new manager, coach and president/CEO even ownership isn't rrradical?

Huyton
05-06-2013, 07:21 AM
You want radical change? Here's a radical change: allow the current guys a couple of years to show some improvement.

TOBOR !
05-06-2013, 07:45 AM
Did you just say you miss Maicon Santos?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouWBqXTE93M

I love Stevanovic's reaction.

TOBOR !
05-06-2013, 07:53 AM
TFC and DCU, 9th and 10th in Eastern this week. Was that really a winning choice?

The team needs a BIG signing. Beckham-level. That's the only thing Payne can do to rescue TFC and the future of this sport in this city. Bite the bullet. Get Michael Ballack. Get somebody. What did Laba do yesterday? what did any of the signings Payne brought in on trial or otherwise do last week, last month, 11 games into the season....?

Are we really any better than May 2012 or may 2011, or May 2010 or or? We are no longer running for the Canadian Championship.... the only good thing we had going last year, at least at the national level....

Something MAJOR must happen. Enough of these tiny mickeymouse additions and shuffles..... and really, invest in a sports psychologist soon to try and end the-now-85min complex.....


This is the Brian Burke Methodology.

Arrive preaching a 5 year plan, which everyone subscribes to, only to get impatient 6 months in and try to win straight out of the gate.

The difference here being the Leaf support wanted the 5 year plan, but it was Burke who scrapped it. I don't see Payne doing similar - thankfully.

Everyone needs to stay the course together (ask Aron).

MartinUtd
05-06-2013, 07:56 AM
See a pattern here?...Time for a radical change in strategy.


Yes, definitely a pattern.

Oldtimer
05-06-2013, 08:01 AM
TFC and DCU, 9th and 10th in Eastern this week. Was that really a winning choice?



I understand that you probably didn't follow DC closely all these years. The current DC is not a Payne team. He lost control when the new ownership took over, and started interfering a la Joey Saputo (but with poorer results) one reason that made him open to coming to Toronto.

Leiweke will give him enough control to remake the team, but anyone who thought he could do it in two months is delusional. Fortunately the days of Anselmi the Engineer making soccer decisions is over.

jabbronies
05-06-2013, 08:18 AM
Yes, definitely a pattern.

lol he walked himself right into that.

Auzzy
05-06-2013, 09:35 AM
You want radical change? Here's a radical change: allow the current guys a couple of years to show some improvement.

This right here, bada bing, bada boom.

brad
05-06-2013, 10:00 AM
And your radical change is buying one big name retired player? They still have to play with this team. Other talents have come here and stagnated.

What about getting a new manager, coach and president/CEO even ownership isn't rrradical?

Fixed that for you :)

brad
05-06-2013, 10:01 AM
You want radical change? Here's a radical change: allow the current guys a couple of years to show some improvement.

A radical change for TFC is exactly this - allowing players to play together long enough to develop some actual chemistry.

Detroit_TFC
05-06-2013, 10:16 AM
Payne says Laba is a core player he expects to be at the club for the next 3 years. I can't remember who else, if anyone, currently on the roster that has got that level of commitment. Personally I would add Silva but other than that, jeez I don't know. So there are going to be a lot of changes if virtually everyone is possibly in line for replacement. So we're going to see a lot of temporaries filling gaps in the meantime. Some of those temporaries might become core players, but I doubt any from the current batch. I would have said Earnshaw 3 weeks ago, but my goodwill is running out with him. I'm just hoping we can see him with Danny K for a bit before having to make a long term decision for or against keeping him.

jabbronies
05-06-2013, 10:20 AM
I say we protest against each other instead of the team:

NO MORE CALLS FOR QUICK FIXES!
STOP DEMANDING DESPERATE SIGNINGS!
WE DESERVE CHEMISTRY!

Like last years team before Mariner fucked it, we have a good foundation of young players along with utility and fill out players. Now we need those guys who will elevate the club to greater heights. We need to find those stars who can come in and complete this team.

I think with Koevs return, we may see that hole filled up front - assuming he is the same player he was before he got injured.
laba was a good addition to the midfield, but I think we need another standout midfielder who is mature enough to calm things down.
And alas - a defensive leader...maybe a combo of O'dea/Callif might be the answer...if not, I hope we find that out sooner than later so we can look for that leader to captain the backline.

Detroit_TFC
05-06-2013, 10:22 AM
Totti want to play in MLS next season (maybe)...

:hide:

...no, not going there (maybe).

Jack
05-06-2013, 10:38 AM
You want radical change? Here's a radical change: allow the current guys a couple of years to show some improvement.
This. All we've done since the beginning of this team is change, change, change, change. New players, new managers, new formations...

And guess what we have from all that? SHIT FUCK ALL.

Give the current team a couple of seasons, at the very least. Stop the revolving door.

Auzzy
05-06-2013, 10:56 AM
I say we protest against each other instead of the team:

NO MORE CALLS FOR QUICK FIXES!
STOP DEMANDING DESPERATE SIGNINGS!
WE DESERVE CHEMISTRY!


SERENITY NOW!!!


Funny that the OP mentions a few former players that he misses: Plata, Cronin, LaBrocca, Maicon Santos, DeRo -- w/o realizing a few things about these guys:

- Many of them are gone due to previous turmoil in the team: coaching/management turnover; freeing up cash for the next quick fix attempts; etc. Plata for example quite plainly did not want to be here anymore after last year's turmoil & short-term thinking.

- Much of the problems with DeRo started with MoJo's attempt of a "massive signing" ASAP, appeasing supporters, and getting into the play-offs quick (long term implications be dammed) even though he actually couldn't afford it. So he made a verbal promise about future salary increases, which is actually illegal under league rules -- but then couldn't/wouldn't keep those promises, and in the end wasn't even here any more. Plus the problem of getting a single star player, who plays best in a certain role that you struggle to provide, and surrounding him with quick-fix crap for much of the time he was here. Then trying the next "quick fix" by adding some other expensive players, much-touted in some circles (JDG, etc.) -- which only pissed off DeRo even more.

- Many of the players he mentions had significant issues or performance slumps while with TFC, with lots of detractors saying they should be "dumped asap, trade them, whatever." That's especially true for a bunch of other players not mentioned who were dumped for minimal return as part of other quick fixes, only to do just fine elsewhere in the league.

The very best thing this management team can do is not listen to us or any other supporters about which players to hire/fire, how to play, etc. It would be good if they listen about some in-game improvements for the supporters & other fans; pricing; etc. But not about on-field stuff!

Yagbod
05-06-2013, 11:04 AM
I think I've got it. Big name signing who can single handedly win games:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSarfCzSvvCikfDK8GOFjz8GF78WhWRO 8PBg4i9OoOtcCcWIFIxlQ

T-boy
05-06-2013, 11:08 AM
Well said Auzzy.

v00d00daddy
05-06-2013, 12:07 PM
I agree with those preaching patience.

I just question where these people were when we had a plan and needed time to implement it under Winter and Deklerk?

We should be on year 3 of the rebuild right now. Unfortunately we also had fuckhead mariner (coincidentally there were a few people backing him that are now here preaching patience)

It's a shit show. We werent patient before and we're doing it all over again.

Only difference is that before we were waiting for possession based, technical football.

Now....well now I have no idea what we're being patient for. But what I've seen so far does not inspire confidence.

If Payne/Nelsen build a team focussing on athleticism and "heart/personality" then I'll be out for good.

Either way...if they don't show progress at some point this year it may all be moot because BMO will be empty anyway.

james
05-06-2013, 12:52 PM
Just stop. It will take time to clean up the pile of shit TFC is in at the moment. No "Beckham-level" signing will make individual players perform above USL standards, its a team game. Im willing to give Payne a full 3 years to setup his vision, I also do not look forward to any short-sighted player signings if that's what you want.


If I remember correctly when Beckham first came to LA they were a shit team, he played with them for a few years before they became a top MLS team. By then they had got other DP's and quality players to join the team.

Beckham is no 1 man show, he crosses the ball well, but he needs other players to finish it, that would never work with the current TFC team we have and a player like Beckham is way over priced. He came in this league to sell tickets and t-shirts and he did just that, the league is at a whole new level compared to where it was 7 years ago, but TFC would need a different type of player, and to be honest it would probably take a few years to get this team in playoffs, no one man can carry the whole team.

T-boy
05-06-2013, 12:53 PM
I just question where these people were when we had a plan and needed time to implement it under Winter and Deklerk?



I'll take this one, as I was definitely one of those you are talking about.

Personally, I never "bought into" the plan that Winter and De Klerk were implementing. I don't think bring a system that worked in a football club in a "free" (not limited to the MLS cap and squad limitation) league would ever work in the MLS. The MLS is FAR too controlled to implement the Ajax system, the average MLS player just isn't going to be able to play it. If we are talking about using that system in a free league without those limitations (Swansea have successfully done it) then I would be all in agreement. I just never ever thought that this system would ever work here. Hence, I just had no patience with it at all.

That, plus Winter and his team were getting WORSE and not better throughout his reign, then I lost all patience by the end. I was fine in the first season with Winter, assuming that he would work with the squad over the winter and improve come the second season. However, they definitely got worse, a lot lot worse!

Nelson DOES appear to be putting together a system - its a high pressing, front 3rd heavy pressure game. That type of game has been very successful in the MLS over the years, and there are a lot of MLS players who are well capable of that type of game. That's why I am preaching patience.

Other people may have different reasons, but those are mine.

ag futbol
05-06-2013, 12:55 PM
I agree with those preaching patience.

I just question where these people were when we had a plan and needed time to implement it under Winter and Deklerk?
There were lots of problems along the way. Having Mariner and Cochrane involved was certainly one problem. But Winter's inexperience in MLS was certainly an issue as well. I know progress isn't always a straight line, but I think it's reasonable to say with 9 straight losses more than a year out of the gate it tarnished Winter's credibility badly.

I would have preferred if they cleaned out the everyone but continued on with the vision under a new coach. They screwed up by not firing Mariner and Cochrane as well as not having someone continue what was started.

It was a good plan. I really doubt Aron Winter was the person who was going to pull it off though.

brad
05-06-2013, 12:57 PM
If I remember correctly when Beckham first came to LA they were a shit team, he played with them for a few years before they became a top MLS team. By then they had got other DP's and quality players to join the team.

Beckham is no 1 man show, he crosses the ball well, but he needs other players to finish it, that would never work with the current TFC team we have and a player like Beckham is way over priced. He came in this league to sell tickets and t-shirts and he did just that, the league is at a whole new level compared to where it was 7 years ago, but TFC would need a different type of player, and to be honest it would probably take a few years to get this team in playoffs, no one man can carry the whole team.

One of the key pieces that made LA as a good as there were was Juninho - the South American holding mid...

TFC07
05-06-2013, 12:58 PM
I agree with those preaching patience.

I just question where these people were when we had a plan and needed time to implement it under Winter and Deklerk?

We should be on year 3 of the rebuild right now. Unfortunately we also had fuckhead mariner (coincidentally there were a few people backing him that are now here preaching patience)

It's a shit show. We werent patient before and we're doing it all over again.

Only difference is that before we were waiting for possession based, technical football.

Now....well now I have no idea what we're being patient for. But what I've seen so far does not inspire confidence.

If Payne/Nelsen build a team focussing on athleticism and "heart/personality" then I'll be out for good.

Either way...if they don't show progress at some point this year it may all be moot because BMO will be empty anyway.

Well said, but however I like how Nelsen got the team pressuring up front since MLS defenders aren't that technically good.

james
05-06-2013, 01:00 PM
SERENITY NOW!!!


Funny that the OP mentions a few former players that he misses: Plata, Cronin, LaBrocca, Maicon Santos, DeRo -- w/o realizing a few things about these guys:

- Many of them are gone due to previous turmoil in the team: coaching/management turnover; freeing up cash for the next quick fix attempts; etc. Plata for example quite plainly did not want to be here anymore after last year's turmoil & short-term thinking.

- Much of the problems with DeRo started with MoJo's attempt of a "massive signing" ASAP, appeasing supporters, and getting into the play-offs quick (long term implications be dammed) even though he actually couldn't afford it. So he made a verbal promise about future salary increases, which is actually illegal under league rules -- but then couldn't/wouldn't keep those promises, and in the end wasn't even here any more. Plus the problem of getting a single star player, who plays best in a certain role that you struggle to provide, and surrounding him with quick-fix crap for much of the time he was here. Then trying the next "quick fix" by adding some other expensive players, much-touted in some circles (JDG, etc.) -- which only pissed off DeRo even more.

- Many of the players he mentions had significant issues or performance slumps while with TFC, with lots of detractors saying they should be "dumped asap, trade them, whatever." That's especially true for a bunch of other players not mentioned who were dumped for minimal return as part of other quick fixes, only to do just fine elsewhere in the league.

The very best thing this management team can do is not listen to us or any other supporters about which players to hire/fire, how to play, etc. It would be good if they listen about some in-game improvements for the supporters & other fans; pricing; etc. But not about on-field stuff!

I agree to that. How many players and coaches have supporters been screaming at to be fired or hired and what happened??? the players went else where and did well or we hired and then they ended up being a complete flop (sometimes we also never gave them a chance to improve).

Ultra & Proud
05-06-2013, 01:02 PM
Nelson DOES appear to be putting together a system - its a high pressing, front 3rd heavy pressure game. That type of game has been very successful in the MLS over the years, and there are a lot of MLS players who are well capable of that type of game.

This is it exactly and if anyone wants to cry about it being based on 'althetics', 'heart', or 'desire' then I will point out Sporting K.C as they play the exact same system and have been for 2 years already. And if anyone says it's different because they do it in a 4-3-3 then that person deserves to be slapped.

ag futbol
05-06-2013, 01:04 PM
Personally, I never "bought into" the plan that Winter and De Klerk were implementing. I don't think bring a system that worked in a football club in a "free" (not limited to the MLS cap and squad limitation) league would ever work in the MLS. The MLS is FAR too controlled to implement the Ajax system, the average MLS player just isn't going to be able to play it. If we are talking about using that system in a free league without those limitations (Swansea have successfully done it) then I would be all in agreement. I just never ever thought that this system would ever work here. Hence, I just had no patience with it at all.

I agree with the rest of your post but disagree with this. Portland is doing fine right now playing the way we said we wanted to. But they have all their people on the same page and a coach who understands North American football.

I almost think the Swansea point runs counter to what you're saying. Swansea has far less resources compared to other clubs in the prem and they have to worry about getting relegated. We don't have either of those problems. Sure, the skill set of an MLS player is limited, but you can always find ways around that. Because so few clubs are trying to play this way it means that a lot of guys who meet the requirements in this league are undervalued. There are tradeoffs, it's not just a matter if getting a group of superior footballers. They might be better in some way but worse in others. Using the system to maximize strengths and hide weaknesses makes it all possible ( like any team tries to do).

T-boy
05-06-2013, 01:04 PM
This is it exactly and if anyone wants to cry about it being based on 'althetics', 'heart', or 'desire' then I will point out Sporting K.C as they play the exact same system and have been for 2 years already. And if anyone says it's different because they do it in a 4-3-3 then that person deserves to be slapped.

Agreed, there is a difference between formation and system, or formation and style. You can play the high pressing game with any formation (well, maybe not with 8-1-1! :p ).

Oldtimer
05-06-2013, 01:10 PM
Now....well now I have no idea what we're being patient for. But what I've seen so far does not inspire confidence.



I don't blame you. Based on the current mix of USL-quality players, it's hard to see consistency, and Payne doesn't go for propaganda (like the previous "our team will play like Ajax and Barcelona" hype).

Based on Payne's previous work at DC, here's what you would see:

(1) A classic counter-attacking style (think LA)
(2) A more technical style than most MLS teams, but with athleticism continuing to be important
(3) A strong latin-influence

Add Nelsen and you get:

(4) High-pressure tactics

The majority of the current players cannot play this way. We will see more turnover and squad improvements. At some point it will come together.

TOBOR !
05-06-2013, 01:30 PM
I'll take this one, as I was definitely one of those you are talking about.

Personally, I never "bought into" the plan that Winter and De Klerk were implementing. I don't think bring a system that worked in a football club in a "free" (not limited to the MLS cap and squad limitation) league would ever work in the MLS. The MLS is FAR too controlled to implement the Ajax system, the average MLS player just isn't going to be able to play it. If we are talking about using that system in a free league without those limitations (Swansea have successfully done it) then I would be all in agreement. I just never ever thought that this system would ever work here. Hence, I just had no patience with it at all.

That, plus Winter and his team were getting WORSE and not better throughout his reign, then I lost all patience by the end. I was fine in the first season with Winter, assuming that he would work with the squad over the winter and improve come the second season. However, they definitely got worse, a lot lot worse!

Nelson DOES appear to be putting together a system - its a high pressing, front 3rd heavy pressure game. That type of game has been very successful in the MLS over the years, and there are a lot of MLS players who are well capable of that type of game. That's why I am preaching patience.

Other people may have different reasons, but those are mine.

I believe the Academy was intended to address your first concern, and the second I've highlighted could be explained away by the presence of Mariner and Cochrane.

Still, no point reminiscing about what might have been, let's get on with what we've got in front of us.

BTW, has Rudy been around since he started this thread ?

Auzzy
05-06-2013, 01:37 PM
I don't blame you. Based on the current mix of USL-quality players, it's hard to see consistency, and Payne doesn't go for propaganda (like the previous "our team will play like Ajax and Barcelona" hype).

Based on Payne's previous work at DC, here's what you would see:

(1) A classic counter-attacking style (think LA)
(2) A more technical style than most MLS teams, but with athleticism continuing to be important
(3) A strong latin-influence

Add Nelsen and you get:

(4) High-pressure tactics

The majority of the current players cannot play this way. We will see more turnover and squad improvements. At some point it will come together.

I would add: with Nelsen it doesn't really end up a "classic counter-attacking style" much of the time. In many cases, you will end up with very short counter-attacks, half-field length or less, due to where they try to regain possession. That has already led to a number of goals & good chances for TFC this season. As mentioned in a couple of interviews, they call it "defend to attack." Press high while the opposition has the ball, maintain tight lines in midfield and defense -- but always have an eye on the immediate next pass & next run possible if your team regains possession.

If you can at least force the opposition to maintain possession in their own half, you're also protecting your own goal.

What I've seen from attempts at "technical play" or "latin style" while attacking has only been bits and pieces so far. But in the best sections of TFC's best games in 2013, I have seen more passing, attempts at give & go and other overlaps, and willingness to take on & dribble past opponents than many of TFC's previous coaches.

Of course there's also been long ball: way too much from Bendik; also a bit too many hopeful balls from the likes of Boss; and some attempts over the top to Earnshaw when the opponent is playing a high defensive line. (Latter not a bad idea as long as they don't try it too often.)

Admittedly, often it's looked very different, and sometimes quite awful. E.g., not sure why TFC sometimes sits back so far especially towards the end of the game. Too tired/lack of concentration? Is Nelsen sometimes asking them to sit back to "defend a lead or draw" which never works? Why so much useless long ball from Bendik? Some of this might be failed strategy; some of it lack of quality as Oldtimer suggests.

Hitcho
05-06-2013, 02:56 PM
From the OP:


what did any of the signings Payne brought in on trial or otherwise do last week, last month, 11 games into the season....?

Two words:

1. Robert

2. EARNSHAW

Then see above about a high pressing game under Nelsen.

Next?

Detroit_TFC
05-06-2013, 04:07 PM
I agree with T-Boy's points regarding the capability for Winter to implement what he was trying to do. I did want it to work but it probably was doomed from the start without squad flexibility, between the existing contracts and the confines of the salary cap, available int'l slots, etc. Hadn't thought about it that way before.

Rudy
05-06-2013, 08:30 PM
From the OP:



Two words:

1. Robert

2. EARNSHAW

Then see above about a high pressing game under Nelsen.

Next?

What about 1. Robert 2. Earnshaw? He scored a few (lucky) goals in 11 games.... and?

denime
05-06-2013, 09:09 PM
You want radical change? Here's a radical change: allow the current guys a couple of years to show some improvement.


This. All we've done since the beginning of this team is change, change, change, change. New players, new managers, new formations...

And guess what we have from all that? SHIT FUCK ALL.

Give the current team a couple of seasons, at the very least. Stop the revolving door.

AGREE 100% !!!

Stop the revolving door for a while.

OgtheDim
05-06-2013, 09:29 PM
What about 1. Robert 2. Earnshaw? He scored a few (lucky) goals in 11 games.... and?

Somebody doesn't remember Cunningham or Barret.

And if you think pressing caused goals are luck, well.........

Shakes McQueen
05-06-2013, 09:47 PM
From a business perspective, I actually kind of agree with Rudy that some kind of Beckham-level signing probably is necessary to resuscitate public interest in the franchise. But if the team is still shit, there won't be any wave to ride from such a signing in the afterglow.

As for pointing out that DCU and TFC are 9th and 10th right now, that just strikes me as the fallacy of weird, small, specifically picked out data samples (I'm not much for coining terms). Use reasonable, large datasets, or don't use them at all - anything else is just sophistry. Same goes for pointing out when a few of the dozens of players to come and go from our team, have a good week (nor does the performance of someone we traded away 2-3 years ago really have anything to do with the current management regime).

My opinion of Payne/Nelson still hasn't fully formed, though I think they still deserve more time. We are never going to solve our issues, if we keep calling for coaches and managers to be sent to the stockades after a few months. I don't know if I buy the argument that they deserve at least a couple of years, simply because we haven't "tried" that yet (a bad manager is a bad manager - it doesn't matter how long you cling to them), but I understand the sentiment.

Right now I'm still content to wait, and observe - without giving an endorsement, or calling for their heads.

- Scott

T-boy
05-06-2013, 10:10 PM
Somebody doesn't remember Cunningham or Barret.

And if you think pressing caused goals are luck, well.........

Thats'a a very good point. Barrett especially - plus he was earning almost double Earnshaw's salary! Pressing doesn't mean goals, you still need the composure to finish the goal off - Earnshaw has that where a lot of otheres don't. You create your own luck in football, Earnshaw's quick thinking and pressure has brought him goals, that's not luck, that's actually talent.

gate7
05-06-2013, 10:37 PM
it was never Winters fault :deadhorse:

gate7
05-06-2013, 10:42 PM
and its not the supporters fault either....lets agree on this at least. :grouphug:

Rudy
05-08-2013, 11:40 PM
From the OP:



Two words:

1. Robert

2. EARNSHAW

Then see above about a high pressing game under Nelsen.

Next?


St. Jose's game just over. GREAT Game for Earnshaw. Laba was highly effective. Ephraim played a key game. Braun's goal was convincing. Bendik's kicks were accurate. Payne has certinly put together a winning team. beautiful play. lots of control and posessession tonight. No complex. Great spirit for full 95mins. Great job Payne and Nelson. Much improvement over last year's Winter's Team.....

OgtheDim
05-09-2013, 12:15 AM
I just knew you were going to do this. Did you see how we played in the first half? Compare that to anything we have done in the last 3 years. Do you realise how BAD we were as an organization back in December?

We had no scouts. None. Mariner did it using TV and free trips to Bermuda. Heck, even Conference South teams in the UK had more contacts then we had in December.

You're asking for too much. NO President or coach would be able to get TFC to where you think they should be now. Your point is we should be better. Others on here think we couldn't be what you think we should be. Nobody is happy with watching games like that. But to say Payne and Nelsen are doing badly is simply something we can not judge yet.