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Abou Sky
05-03-2013, 09:04 AM
Ok, I am going to compare the love of a team to a marriage here.

If your partner is in a funk or has had a shit day you know what the worst thing to do is? Be funky/shitty to them. You give them a smile and a hug and offer to make dinner, even if you aren't up for it.

YOU are the one that is there for them, you back them publicly EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG. (You can talk privately after about your thoughts)

Imagine telling your partner that you aren't going to be nice to them until they are nice to you and think of how effective that is. IT IS NOT.

For the 90 minutes that the boys are on the pitch, we support. If we are losing, we support, if we are being outclassed to shit, we support.

We should be ashamed of ourselves, has Portland been ANY better of a team than us? Not at all, have their supporters complained? YES. But for 90 minutes, they support.

Ask any player if the support makes a difference and 100% of them will say YES.

We can not change the skill level of players, we can not change coaching but we CAN change the atmosphere.

I can't say for sure, but maybe the reason we are giving up late goals and losing confidence is because we are not supporting. People are singing 'let's go Blue Jays' at 90 minutes after we give up a goal instead of 'FIGHT BOYS FIGHT!!!'

If we really are the 12th man, then we sure as fuck should act like it, if any player gave up the way we do we would shit on them.

:drum:

Brooker
05-03-2013, 09:12 AM
http://www.crushable.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Wel-Gibson-Golden-Globe-Gif.gif

OgtheDim
05-03-2013, 09:14 AM
Critical mass issues. I still claim a roof would make a big difference.

TOBOR !
05-03-2013, 09:20 AM
I think this comes up annually.

2007 : He's Right ! Let's do it !
2008 : YES ! Absolutely...
2009 : Shit. I forgot. But you're right. let's do it !
2010 : Yeah, yeah - we know...
2011 : We know, but when do we get something in return ?
2012 : look. some people have left. it's hard to keep this up.
2013 : Meh.

C.Ronaldo
05-03-2013, 09:26 AM
we've been put down so much, im starting to feel its something we did.

typical abusive relationship

Yohan
05-03-2013, 09:33 AM
we've been put down so much, im starting to feel its something we did.

typical abusive relationship
i still feel like we are being taken for granted by the FO and the team, though it has gotten a bit better the season.

MartinUtd
05-03-2013, 09:39 AM
So it's our fault our team is full of USL? As much as the 12th man makes a difference, it's not going to turn Wiedeman
into Bruin, Morgan into Dunivant or Bekker into McCarthy. We're not asking for much here.

denMAR
05-03-2013, 10:16 AM
I'm still going to head out to the matches, have a beer, a good time, and not expect much more than that in terms of results.

It's a lot harder to get people to come out to matches when the team isn't doing so well though. The midday matches don't help either.

ag futbol
05-03-2013, 11:03 AM
So it's our fault our team is full of USL? As much as the 12th man makes a difference, it's not going to turn Wiedeman
into Bruin, Morgan into Dunivant or Bekker into McCarthy. We're not asking for much here.
Agreed. This whole topic is making the issue complex than it actually needs to be. Considering the crap it's gone through this team is still relatively well supported. Nagging people on the merits or support has never been effective. Either people being it or they don't.

Management puts product on the field, fans/supporters/whoever respond to the conditions (some in different ways than others).

glaze
05-03-2013, 11:45 AM
I feel this issue is far more complex than saying lets change the atmosphere.
There are many reasons the atmosphere isn't what it used to be.
Winning helps. Our teams (Jays, Leafs and TFC) were outscored 20-2 on Wednesday.
A loser mentality has sunk in, fans have gotten their hopes up time and time again only to have them dashed.
MLSE rewards fan loyalty after a 9 year playoff drought for the leafs by jacking prices 75%.
Even the Jays sold out many of their fans this year, who used to by the season pass, by saying it was only 2 per person. If people had bought 4 for the past 5 years, they were now SOL.
I agree no one who calls themselves a supporter should be chanting lets go blue jays after a late goal at BMO. But I don't think you can simply wave a wand and turn our crowd into that of Seattle or Portland.

Derko
05-03-2013, 12:45 PM
Cheering anything other than a TFC Chant offends me and have told people so in the stands around me, It is usually not regulars, at least what I have seen, I usally tell them to shut the fuck up. I will be at games chanting and supporting. I am not happy with the drubbing at Montreal. But will be watching on Saturday night.

TFC Tifoso
05-03-2013, 12:51 PM
"As far as I know, in the history of soccer, supporters have never scored a goal for their team" - Gigi Buffon

I think it is more like a parent and a child instead of a marriage.....

If 7 year old Johnny still constantly shits his pants in the corner, are you going to cheer on little Johnny every time or are you going to tell him that is not the right way?........

I mean 1 or 2 year old Johnny I can understand, but by 7, he shouldn't be shitting his pants anymore......

v00d00daddy
05-03-2013, 01:45 PM
Ok, I am going to compare the love of a team to a marriage here.

If your partner is in a funk or has had a shit day you know what the worst thing to do is? Be funky/shitty to them. You give them a smile and a hug and offer to make dinner, even if you aren't up for it.

YOU are the one that is there for them, you back them publicly EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG. (You can talk privately after about your thoughts)

Imagine telling your partner that you aren't going to be nice to them until they are nice to you and think of how effective that is. IT IS NOT.

For the 90 minutes that the boys are on the pitch, we support. If we are losing, we support, if we are being outclassed to shit, we support.

We should be ashamed of ourselves, has Portland been ANY better of a team than us? Not at all, have their supporters complained? YES. But for 90 minutes, they support.

Ask any player if the support makes a difference and 100% of them will say YES.

We can not change the skill level of players, we can not change coaching but we CAN change the atmosphere.

I can't say for sure, but maybe the reason we are giving up late goals and losing confidence is because we are not supporting. People are singing 'let's go Blue Jays' at 90 minutes after we give up a goal instead of 'FIGHT BOYS FIGHT!!!'

If we really are the 12th man, then we sure as fuck should act like it, if any player gave up the way we do we would shit on them.

:drum:

I know you're talking about supporters but I totally disagree about this notion whether it has to do with the relationship between a football club and it's supporters or a marriage.

You don't support ANYTHING if its wrong. Not in public or private. If my wife (or my football club) can't take hearing the truth than that's her problem. People who can't handle being called out on the carpet when they're obviously wrong have self worth issues and inferiority complexes. I've called my wife out in public when she talks shit all the time. And she's done the same to me. Our relationship is open and honest enough to handle it and grow from it.

If this club and it's players can't stomach supporters voicing their displeasure and expect us to cheer them through it all....despite how horrid they've been for sooooo long...well I'm sorry. That's their problem. Man up, own your mistakes and admit them. And look for praise when you've earned it.

There is no such thing as unconditional love. Especially not with a 7 year old, inept from day one football club.

I find it startling that, even after 7 years of failure, some people still feel as if they owe this club something. It's like Stockholm syndrome. LOL

With each passing year of abuse some people fall deeper and deeper in love. LOL

Initial B
05-03-2013, 01:46 PM
If 7 year old Johnny still constantly shits his pants in the corner, are you going to cheer on little Johnny every time or are you going to tell him that is not the right way?........

I mean 1 or 2 year old Johnny I can understand, but by 7, he shouldn't be shitting his pants anymore......
As I am dealing with this with one of my kids right now at age 6, I can tell you that yelling at them and getting angry at them does not work and only makes them afraid of you. Patience is required and keep on teaching the fundamentals, but also explain to them what the consequences will be if they don't stop doing it. Consistency of message is also important. But I guess that's more the coach's job than the supporters.

trane
05-03-2013, 01:55 PM
Ok, I am going to compare the love of a team to a marriage here.

If your partner is in a funk or has had a shit day you know what the worst thing to do is? Be funky/shitty to them. You give them a smile and a hug and offer to make dinner, even if you aren't up for it.

YOU are the one that is there for them, you back them publicly EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG. (You can talk privately after about your thoughts)

Imagine telling your partner that you aren't going to be nice to them until they are nice to you and think of how effective that is. IT IS NOT.

For the 90 minutes that the boys are on the pitch, we support. If we are losing, we support, if we are being outclassed to shit, we support.

We should be ashamed of ourselves, has Portland been ANY better of a team than us? Not at all, have their supporters complained? YES. But for 90 minutes, they support.

Ask any player if the support makes a difference and 100% of them will say YES.

We can not change the skill level of players, we can not change coaching but we CAN change the atmosphere.

I can't say for sure, but maybe the reason we are giving up late goals and losing confidence is because we are not supporting. People are singing 'let's go Blue Jays' at 90 minutes after we give up a goal instead of 'FIGHT BOYS FIGHT!!!'

If we really are the 12th man, then we sure as fuck should act like it, if any player gave up the way we do we would shit on them.

:drum:

This is has been the mainstream theory behind TFC support from day one, and only when some of the supporters have voiced their displeasure has the club reacted, and yet so many go back to this theory, that it is troubling.

TOBOR !
05-03-2013, 02:38 PM
Are we being programmed to support regardless of result. That is to say, have we evolved to encourage our teams unconditionally ?

It begins with kids sports, where we teach them to have fun and they learn about sportsmanship. These are good things, to be certain, but they aren't being taught to compete. We don't talk about winners and losers because we don't want feelings hurt. Then at the end of it all we give out participation awards, not championships.

Add to this the mandate being handed to the parents of these kids. Cheer for both teams. Applaud effort rather instead of accomplishments.

I wonder if over time we aren't being conditioned to see ourselves as a support group for the teams we cheer for. We don't want the players to 'be afraid of losing'. We need to be there for them to share in their success and coddle them through their disappointments.

trane
05-03-2013, 03:37 PM
^ Yes we are. I am not because I did not grow up here, and I am from another era. You work hard to try to win. You do not always win but you always try. You do not play to have fun, you play to win. ( nothing is more fun and rewarding then finally winning as a result of great work and effort)

Yohan
05-03-2013, 03:47 PM
^ Yes we are. I am not because I did not grow up here, and I am from another era. You work hard to try to win. You do not always win but you always try. You do not play to have fun, you play to win. ( nothing is more fun and rewarding then finally winning as a result of great work and effort)
you must have issues with OSA's long term player development plan then...

Abou Sky
05-03-2013, 03:52 PM
^ Yes we are. I am not because I did not grow up here, and I am from another era. You work hard to try to win. You do not always win but you always try. You do not play to have fun, you play to win. ( nothing is more fun and rewarding then finally winning as a result of great work and effort)

IDK, I can't wrap my head around a lot of that.

Just some examples: I am a terrible golfer, I don't even like the sport but I will play with friends to have some fun. I just tell people to mark me off for 180 (max) and go from there.

I started boxing a while ago, I am in the heavyweight division, when I box people in my weight class who are 6'4" (I am 5'8") I have a bitch of a time even landing a punch, but I will step in the ring and have fun doing it (yes, I have fun getting punched in the head)

Before destroying my knee I used to do 'double century' bike rides, that is 200km over 2 days, often through pretty hilly area. I was NEVER winning one of those, I did it because I could and as grueling as it was, it was rewarding.

I coach a bit, when my kids play they had better have fun, otherwise why bother? The day playing soccer isn't fun is the day you should quit. That said, not every part of every drill will be fun, but if the kids see that there is a reward for the work they put in then they will work even harder.

I have heard it called the 'pussification of society' but I feel terribly sorry for people who have to put their kids on a soccer pitch to win to somehow boost their own ego.

I also run a reasonably successful business and in my little corner of the world I am pretty successful, I can go just about anywhere in this business and people know me etc. Even in business I don't 'play to win' because there IS NO WINNING, I could retire if I really wanted to but I don't. You put in the effort, you get the rewards for it and you have fun along the way. If you aren't having fun, don't bother.

I guess that is kind of how I look at watching/supporting soccer. If you aren't having fun at the games, why bother?

Abou Sky
05-03-2013, 03:52 PM
you must have issues with OSA's long term player development plan then...

lol, while not perfect, LTPD is fantastic.

MartinUtd
05-03-2013, 04:05 PM
You seem to be forgetting that these athletes on the Toronto FC roster are paid professionals. I'm not paying money to watch them have a good time. If that was the case I'd just watch high school teams. None of what you just wrote is analogous with the situation of a failing profession sports team. It's a good creed for recreational fun, but that's about it.

Abou Sky
05-03-2013, 04:37 PM
You seem to be forgetting that these athletes on the Toronto FC roster are paid professionals. I'm not paying money to watch them have a good time. If that was the case I'd just watch high school teams. None of what you just wrote is analogous with the situation of a failing profession sports team. It's a good creed for recreational fun, but that's about it.

Ok, I think people are taking what I said a bit wrong :

I don't think you should support unconditionally, but for 90 minutes you should. Call out coaches etc off the pitch is fine, but singing 'go leafs go' is shitty.

If YOU are not having fun at games, why are you going, (not that the players should only have fun)

ginkster88
05-03-2013, 04:37 PM
So it's our fault our team is full of USL? As much as the 12th man makes a difference, it's not going to turn Wiedeman
into Bruin, Morgan into Dunivant or Bekker into McCarthy. We're not asking for much here.

Hurts even more when you remember that Dunivant was at one point a Red.

trane
05-03-2013, 04:47 PM
you must have issues with OSA's long term player development plan then...

I do. I think teaching skills and to have fun in a tactical and team goal driven vacuum is bullshit.

trane
05-03-2013, 04:55 PM
IDK, I can't wrap my head around a lot of that.

Just some examples: I am a terrible golfer, I don't even like the sport but I will play with friends to have some fun. I just tell people to mark me off for 180 (max) and go from there.

I started boxing a while ago, I am in the heavyweight division, when I box people in my weight class who are 6'4" (I am 5'8") I have a bitch of a time even landing a punch, but I will step in the ring and have fun doing it (yes, I have fun getting punched in the head)

Before destroying my knee I used to do 'double century' bike rides, that is 200km over 2 days, often through pretty hilly area. I was NEVER winning one of those, I did it because I could and as grueling as it was, it was rewarding.

I coach a bit, when my kids play they had better have fun, otherwise why bother? The day playing soccer isn't fun is the day you should quit. That said, not every part of every drill will be fun, but if the kids see that there is a reward for the work they put in then they will work even harder.

I have heard it called the 'pussification of society' but I feel terribly sorry for people who have to put their kids on a soccer pitch to win to somehow boost their own ego.

I also run a reasonably successful business and in my little corner of the world I am pretty successful, I can go just about anywhere in this business and people know me etc. Even in business I don't 'play to win' because there IS NO WINNING, I could retire if I really wanted to but I don't. You put in the effort, you get the rewards for it and you have fun along the way. If you aren't having fun, don't bother.

I guess that is kind of how I look at watching/supporting soccer. If you aren't having fun at the games, why bother?

You do not speak my language, and hence you do not understand anything that I am saying. Stepping onto the pitch trying to win, does not mean that you win, but you sure as hell try, if not why bother. I have boxed as well I like being hit, but sure as hell I try to win, I may lose but I give it all I have. It is feminization of men, taking away men's natural urge to compete. I need no ego boost. But I expect my children and my teams to show up and fight. To try to win, not to accept mediocrity, but strive for better and greater things. Games were invented for the sake of competition, you take away the competition, either with the other team or yourself, games are a waste of time.

trane
05-03-2013, 05:01 PM
^ by the way I love boxing, because it is a sport with men with hearts, who no matter the odds will step in the ring and fight. Putting it all on the line. It is my favorite sport next to football.

Abou Sky
05-03-2013, 05:19 PM
^ by the way I love boxing, because it is a sport with men with hearts, who no matter the odds will step in the ring and fight. Putting it all on the line. It is my favorite sport next to football.

See trane, that is the thing.

I agree with you 100% it is about heart and trying and grueling pain. 'fun' to me isn't puppy kisses, it is about challenges.

Do I prefer to win? Of course I do. But I will still try even if I know I am outclassed.

As for ltpd, the kids are crazy competitive, they want to win every game, what it takes out is standings.

The kids know who they are better than and who they are worse than. They know which win means a lot and which was a gimme.

Anyway, ltpd is based on German and Argentinian models and with the talent that comes out of there I think it is fair to base it on. Only time will tell though, if we make it into the 2030 world cup and make it past the group stages we will know that it was a success.

FluSH
05-03-2013, 05:19 PM
Critical mass issues. I still claim a roof would make a big difference.

Can I get an AMEN!

Alonso
05-03-2013, 05:31 PM
^^^ AMEN! And I'll up you a Hallelujah!



Hurts even more when you remember that Dunivant was at one point a Red.

And that we potentially could have had Will Bruin with our 9th pick in the 2011 draft but Cochrane gave the 9th pick for Nathan Sturgis instead.

Cashcleaner
05-07-2013, 02:14 AM
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but being a non-critical cheeleader is exactly the sort of "client" that MLSE/TFC wants us to be. They want us to pay our money, sit down and cheer (but mind the colourful language!) for 90 mins, and heap only praise on the club and the completely logical and sensible leadership of the executive. This is the reality of sports today in our world. They want to serve us a product and have us eat it up with no questions asked. Suggesting our recent misfortune is in any significant way the fault of the supporters is ridiculous and plays right into the hands of the people who really are responsible for this team's current state of affairs.

Kevin Lowe, the President Hockey Operations of the Edmonton Oilers really highlighted the attitude that sports management execs have in this day and age. At a press conference discussing their sacking of coach Steve Tambellini a while back, Lowe very bluntly said that the Oilers have two types of fans: Those who go to the games (and spend the money) and those who don't. The ones who shell out the cash for season tickets or multi-packs are really the only ones who matter when it comes to who you need to satisfy. The ultimate insult is the fact that pretty much every taxpayer in the province - be they Oilers fans or not, will be on the hook in some way to build the brand new arena the team is clamouring for. Consider the directors, managers, and spokespersons for clubs who drop words like "loyalty", "pride" and "respect" when taking about the fans and their relationship with the club, yet are the ones who jump ship the moment a bigger paycheque is offered by another organization.

http://globalnews.ca/news/488944/kevin-lowe-posts-message-to-oilers-fans/

We have every right to demand the absolute best from our players, coaches, and even the executives in the boardroom - but not for the reasons they are thinking. We care about TFC because it's our team and it means something to us. It means we are part of something that's bigger then us as individuals. They care because it's a contractual obligation - it's part of their job. And because we care with no occupational strings attached, that entitles us to be critical when necessary and even adversarial if need be. Again, they don't feel the same about this team as we do - and the last person who deserves any share of the blame is the steadfast supporter who continues to pay some of the highest ticket prices in the league and wears the 130 dollar jersey every match day to watch his team continue to struggle in a league that is still looked down upon by the most domestic leagues in Europe and South America.

Fort York Redcoat
05-07-2013, 07:01 AM
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but being a non-critical cheeleader is exactly the sort of "client" that MLSE/TFC wants us to be. They want us to pay our money, sit down and cheer (but mind the colourful language!) for 90 mins, and heap only praise on the club and the completely logical and sensible leadership of the executive. This is the reality of sports today in our world. They want to serve us a product and have us eat it up with no questions asked. Suggesting our recent misfortune is in any significant way the fault of the supporters is ridiculous and plays right into the hands of the people who really are responsible for this team's current state of affairs.

Kevin Lowe, the President Hockey Operations of the Edmonton Oilers really highlighted the attitude that sports management execs have in this day and age. At a press conference discussing their sacking of coach Steve Tambellini a while back, Lowe very bluntly said that the Oilers have two types of fans: Those who go to the games (and spend the money) and those who don't. The ones who shell out the cash for season tickets or multi-packs are really the only ones who matter when it comes to who you need to satisfy. The ultimate insult is the fact that pretty much every taxpayer in the province - be they Oilers fans or not, will be on the hook in some way to build the brand new arena the team is clamouring for. Consider the directors, managers, and spokespersons for clubs who drop words like "loyalty", "pride" and "respect" when taking about the fans and their relationship with the club, yet are the ones who jump ship the moment a bigger paycheque is offered by another organization.

http://globalnews.ca/news/488944/kevin-lowe-posts-message-to-oilers-fans/

We have every right to demand the absolute best from our players, coaches, and even the executives in the boardroom - but not for the reasons they are thinking. We care about TFC because it's our team and it means something to us. It means we are part of something that's bigger then us as individuals. They care because it's a contractual obligation - it's part of their job. And because we care with no occupational strings attached, that entitles us to be critical when necessary and even adversarial if need be. Again, they don't feel the same about this team as we do - and the last person who deserves any share of the blame is the steadfast supporter who continues to pay some of the highest ticket prices in the league and wears the 130 dollar jersey every match day to watch his team continue to struggle in a league that is still looked down upon by the most domestic leagues in Europe and South America.

The difference is still whether one carries their criticism into the stands or not. The rest, how MLSE looks at us, is out of our control.

Abou Sky
05-07-2013, 07:05 AM
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but being a non-critical cheeleader is exactly the sort of "client" that MLSE/TFC wants us to be. They want us to pay our money, sit down and cheer (but mind the colourful language!) for 90 mins, and heap only praise on the club and the completely logical and sensible leadership of the executive. This is the reality of sports today in our world. They want to serve us a product and have us eat it up with no questions asked. Suggesting our recent misfortune is in any significant way the fault of the supporters is ridiculous and plays right into the hands of the people who really are responsible for this team's current state of affairs.

Kevin Lowe, the President Hockey Operations of the Edmonton Oilers really highlighted the attitude that sports management execs have in this day and age. At a press conference discussing their sacking of coach Steve Tambellini a while back, Lowe very bluntly said that the Oilers have two types of fans: Those who go to the games (and spend the money) and those who don't. The ones who shell out the cash for season tickets or multi-packs are really the only ones who matter when it comes to who you need to satisfy. The ultimate insult is the fact that pretty much every taxpayer in the province - be they Oilers fans or not, will be on the hook in some way to build the brand new arena the team is clamouring for. Consider the directors, managers, and spokespersons for clubs who drop words like "loyalty", "pride" and "respect" when taking about the fans and their relationship with the club, yet are the ones who jump ship the moment a bigger paycheque is offered by another organization.

http://globalnews.ca/news/488944/kevin-lowe-posts-message-to-oilers-fans/

We have every right to demand the absolute best from our players, coaches, and even the executives in the boardroom - but not for the reasons they are thinking. We care about TFC because it's our team and it means something to us. It means we are part of something that's bigger then us as individuals. They care because it's a contractual obligation - it's part of their job. And because we care with no occupational strings attached, that entitles us to be critical when necessary and even adversarial if need be. Again, they don't feel the same about this team as we do - and the last person who deserves any share of the blame is the steadfast supporter who continues to pay some of the highest ticket prices in the league and wears the 130 dollar jersey every match day to watch his team continue to struggle in a league that is still looked down upon by the most domestic leagues in Europe and South America.

My point is that for 90 minutes we cheer.

I am the one who did the 'support TFC boycott MLSE' pamphlets, I think we can go and cheer but not eat concessions etc.

Anyway, the point isn't don't be critical, it is don't hold back while at the game.

prizby
05-07-2013, 07:16 AM
Ok, I am going to compare the love of a team to a marriage here.

If your partner is in a funk or has had a shit day you know what the worst thing to do is? Be funky/shitty to them. You give them a smile and a hug and offer to make dinner, even if you aren't up for it.

YOU are the one that is there for them, you back them publicly EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG. (You can talk privately after about your thoughts)

Imagine telling your partner that you aren't going to be nice to them until they are nice to you and think of how effective that is. IT IS NOT.

For the 90 minutes that the boys are on the pitch, we support. If we are losing, we support, if we are being outclassed to shit, we support.

We should be ashamed of ourselves, has Portland been ANY better of a team than us? Not at all, have their supporters complained? YES. But for 90 minutes, they support.

Ask any player if the support makes a difference and 100% of them will say YES.

We can not change the skill level of players, we can not change coaching but we CAN change the atmosphere.

I can't say for sure, but maybe the reason we are giving up late goals and losing confidence is because we are not supporting. People are singing 'let's go Blue Jays' at 90 minutes after we give up a goal instead of 'FIGHT BOYS FIGHT!!!'

If we really are the 12th man, then we sure as fuck should act like it, if any player gave up the way we do we would shit on them.

:drum:

agreed; too bad only about 20 other ppl feel this way

MFG1
05-07-2013, 07:49 AM
Enabler, codependent google them

TOBOR !
05-07-2013, 07:56 AM
agreed; luckily only about 20 other ppl feel this way

fixed your post.

Shakes McQueen
05-07-2013, 08:40 AM
While I there is some merit to the "support for 90 minutes, and make your grievances known the rest of the time" philosophy, it most definitely does not make anything "our fault".

These guys are professional athletes - it is their job to play well, and play hard, even if the stadium is empty. In no other sport on the planet, do you hear anything about how it is the fault of the people in the stands. TFC are not a generational franchise that has existed for nearly 100 years or more, with decades of successes and failures - they are less than a decade old, and still need to earn such unrequited "love" in the face of anything.

I appreciate, and even respect, the idea that no matter what, we should be behind the team 100% for that particular 90 minutes. But to put the blame for the team's failures on ourselves? Absolutely not. Everyone in the stands pays to be there. The players get paid to be there. It's time they started delivering something, to honour the efforts of the people in the stands over the past 6-7 years. So far it has been a one-way street, with rare exception.

- Scott

Fort York Redcoat
05-07-2013, 08:49 AM
agreed; too bad only about 20 other ppl feel this way


fixed your post.


Still don't understand why if this is true an overwhelming majority feel they need to quash vocal support....hmmmm....

Yagbod
05-07-2013, 09:46 AM
Still don't understand why if this is true an overwhelming majority feel they need to quash vocal support....hmmmm....

I am confused by this statement given the quotes used in it. Could you clarify please?

Other than the 'put your flag down' people I find most people can't be bothered to sing, but don't try to quash it per se.

jabbronies
05-07-2013, 10:00 AM
I can't say for sure, but maybe the reason we are giving up late goals and losing confidence is because we are not supporting. People are singing 'let's go Blue Jays' at 90 minutes after we give up a goal instead of 'FIGHT BOYS FIGHT!!!'


irrelevant chanting has always been an issue IMO and is the main reason why I don't chant much at the match anymore. I will still chant if something is relevant, but 90% of the time it isn't. It's just singing for the sake of singing.

"Let's go Blue Jays" after we have been scored against late in the match and have just lost points has more of an impact than singing "We Love You" after being scored against.
I mean fuck..singing the lyrics "....and that's the way we like it, we like it, we like it..." after being scored against in the 85th minute is ridiculous.

But that's just my opinion.

Fort York Redcoat
05-07-2013, 11:08 AM
I am confused by this statement given the quotes used in it. Could you clarify please?

Other than the 'put your flag down' people I find most people can't be bothered to sing, but don't try to quash it per se.

The message is now a "broken telephone" of quotes.

Quick summary:

Sky said sing
priz said 20
robot said thankfully only
FYR asked why

I can guess but I don't like the answer. The silent majority in the stands worrying about, wagging fingers at, or scoffing at those that support and sing no matter what have to talk big here. It's the only voice they have. That's what I was addressing . The Quashing of it here not in the stands.

I disagree with them, respectfully, but only so far as its returned.

Yagbod
05-07-2013, 12:40 PM
Thank you, I think I understand. I come down on the side of supporting for 90 mins in the stands. Especially after they give up the inevitable late goal. If they are ever going to make a come back in a game a push from the fans will not hurt the chances. On the other hand chanting 'go leafs go' or remaining silent could hurt that effort.

No one disputes that these people are professionals that should always be giving their 110%. But they are human as well and they need us urging them on, as I said, especially when they are down.

There is plenty of time for voicing displeasure outside of the 90 mins.

TOBOR !
05-07-2013, 01:27 PM
The message is now a "broken telephone" of quotes.

Quick summary:

Sky said sing
priz said 20
robot said thankfully only
FYR asked why

I can guess but I don't like the answer. The silent majority in the stands worrying about, wagging fingers at, or scoffing at those that support and sing no matter what have to talk big here. It's the only voice they have. That's what I was addressing . The Quashing of it here not in the stands.

I disagree with them, respectfully, but only so far as its returned.

Ah - interesting.

My interpretation of Sky et al's meaning is that for 90 minutes you support the team and nothing else.

Whereas I believe that you can (and should) also use the 90 minutes as a theater to demonstrate your grievances.

Shakes McQueen
05-07-2013, 01:35 PM
Thank you, I think I understand. I come down on the side of supporting for 90 mins in the stands. Especially after they give up the inevitable late goal. If they are ever going to make a come back in a game a push from the fans will not hurt the chances. On the other hand chanting 'go leafs go' or remaining silent could hurt that effort.

No one disputes that these people are professionals that should always be giving their 110%. But they are human as well and they need us urging them on, as I said, especially when they are down.

There is plenty of time for voicing displeasure outside of the 90 mins.

I suspect there is no 100% correct answer to this question, really. If you look at it as "what will motivate the team the most?" then I think full-throated support no matter what is probably the right tack to take. But if you take the view of "what will make our feelings known to the people in management?", then I think it's probably not. Ultimately this is nothing but a business to MLSE, and most of the players who come through our doors are just private contractors, out to make whatever money they can in their window of opportunity - the Danny Dichios, people who genuinely come to identify themselves with our team and our fans, will always be rare. The rest are mercenaries.

Mercenaries like to be cheered like anyone else, but when they aren't getting that job done week in-week out, what then? It's not an easy question, yet it's also at the heart of so much of the anger and bad feelings that occasionally circulate through the "supporters".

Maybe it's like being a parent - knowing when to give them tough love, but also knowing when it won't help anything. I dunno.

- Scott

Yagbod
05-07-2013, 03:16 PM
I suspect there is no 100% correct answer to this question, really. If you look at it as "what will motivate the team the most?" then I think full-throated support no matter what is probably the right tack to take. But if you take the view of "what will make our feelings known to the people in management?", then I think it's probably not. Ultimately this is nothing but a business to MLSE, and most of the players who come through our doors are just private contractors, out to make whatever money they can in their window of opportunity - the Danny Dichios, people who genuinely come to identify themselves with our team and our fans, will always be rare. The rest are mercenaries.

Mercenaries like to be cheered like anyone else, but when they aren't getting that job done week in-week out, what then? It's not an easy question, yet it's also at the heart of so much of the anger and bad feelings that occasionally circulate through the "supporters".

Maybe it's like being a parent - knowing when to give them tough love, but also knowing when it won't help anything. I dunno.

- Scott

Good points, Scott. I was referring primarily to the team in that post. I think you can still target the company and FO at games without taking anything away from the team.

For instance, I am working on a small not so positive statement banner for the Columbus game coming up. But after we put it up in 111 we will still be cheering our guts out for the team. A fine balance must be struck, no doubt.

prizby
05-07-2013, 11:22 PM
Ah - interesting.

My interpretation of Sky et al's meaning is that for 90 minutes you support the team and nothing else.

Whereas I believe that you can (and should) also use the 90 minutes as a theater to demonstrate your grievances.

you can still support while airing your grievances; i have an idea or two I have been pondering for a little while

Cashcleaner
05-08-2013, 03:15 AM
While I there is some merit to the "support for 90 minutes, and make your grievances known the rest of the time" philosophy, it most definitely does not make anything "our fault".

These guys are professional athletes - it is their job to play well, and play hard, even if the stadium is empty. In no other sport on the planet, do you hear anything about how it is the fault of the people in the stands. TFC are not a generational franchise that has existed for nearly 100 years or more, with decades of successes and failures - they are less than a decade old, and still need to earn such unrequited "love" in the face of anything.

I appreciate, and even respect, the idea that no matter what, we should be behind the team 100% for that particular 90 minutes. But to put the blame for the team's failures on ourselves? Absolutely not. Everyone in the stands pays to be there. The players get paid to be there. It's time they started delivering something, to honour the efforts of the people in the stands over the past 6-7 years. So far it has been a one-way street, with rare exception.

- Scott

Exactly. Look, we all want to sing for a full 90 minutes and cheer the team on, but it's completely unfair to pin any significant amount of blame of this team's failures on the crowds who show up and pay good money to watch this team struggle. The suggestion that the decreased atmosphere at BMO Field is in any way responsible for our late collapses is insulting.

The issue is not that we're losing games because the atmosphere is dying. Instead, the reality is that the atmosphere is dying because we are losing games.

Walms
05-08-2013, 09:57 AM
What I find to be a disheartening trend of late is when the final whistle blows and all you can hear around BMO is "Booooo". Nothing makes me madder and it feels like its taking away from the 90+ min of singing that the supporters have been doing. I know everyone supports in thier own way and Im not saying that we all need to be blind cheerleaders, but I for one will never boo this team and I find it embarrassing when our fans do. We are supposed to be the "best supporters in the league" and when the opposing players/fans hear us shitting on our own boys I feel like that gives them an extra smug victory.

some vary good arguments have been raised in the thread and my favorite comparison is that to a marriage. When your spouse has a hard day you are there to help them, not to piss all over them. Our guys don't like being bottom of the league, giving up late goals, and getting owned by Tic Tac.. and when we, the loyal "BMO Faithful" turn on them after a loss it must feel like your partner turning on you after a really hard day at the office, not a good feeling..... I know that after enough of this I would personally stop caring, and even resenting having to come home.... is this what we want our players to feel?

Next time we give up a late goal, loss a match, or blow a lead I propose that we sing AS LOUD AS WE CAN to FIGHT for the badge and show everyone else around BMO that the Red Patch are NEVER going away, NEVER going to sit down, and NEVER going to stop Cheering for our Reds!!!!
:scarf::drum::canada::drum::scarf:

eustacchio
05-08-2013, 10:33 AM
I agree. I greatly dislike the booing and have never booed (our team), but after the last time we shit the bed at home I couldn't fault anyone for doing it. It was a very weird state of mind/being. I don't want to feel like that again.

DoubleUp
05-08-2013, 03:56 PM
^ Yes we are. I am not because I did not grow up here, and I am from another era. You work hard to try to win. You do not always win but you always try. You do not compete to have fun, you compete to win. ( nothing is more fun and rewarding then finally winning as a result of great work and effort)

edit.


I agree!.