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View Full Version : Why such low expectations? Why not ask for more?



trane
04-16-2013, 02:01 PM
Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre. This year, I cannot believe what low expectations so many of the supporters have set for this team. FOR FUCK SAKES this is year SEVEN, yes we are rebuiling again but this is the MLS, you have to demand more. This club can win this year, but they will not if there is not pressure on them.

I have like what I have see on the field ( in relative terms of course) but they need to get results. Supporters should tell them, we need to see results, and not once again, well it takes time....

Yohan
04-16-2013, 02:10 PM
Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre. This year, I cannot believe what low expectations so many of the supporters have set for this team. FOR FUCK SAKES this is year SEVEN, yes we are rebuiling again but this is the MLS, you have to demand more. This club can win this year, but they will not if there is not pressure on them.

I have like what I have see on the field ( in relative terms of course) but they need to get results. Supporters should tell them, we need to see results, and not once again, well it takes time....
Parity does make it possible for MLS teams to make a quick turnaround, but the odds of that happening is becoming harder and harder. Team chemistry is the best way to success in MLS.

I suppose TFC might catch fire and go on an amazing run. Certainly the results have been positive considering relative strength of teams TFC has faced so far, with not getting blown out and getting points when TFC had no business doing so.

If you ramp up the pressure on KP and Nelsen too much, and they don't deliver, then what? Fire them? Because that should be the only consequences of not meeting expectations.

I'm not giving KP and Nelsen a free pass. However, I am realistic in my expectations that TFC is not competitive, at least on paper in comparison to most MLS teams. Considering the crap KP had to hose out before putting his team together, I think KP deserves a bit more rope than usual.

I also think Nelsen being able to get results has raised the expectations from a lot of supporters. Understandable, but I think these people are bound to be expected sooner or later.

spark
04-16-2013, 02:18 PM
Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre. This year, I cannot believe what low expectations so many of the supporters have set for this team. FOR FUCK SAKES this is year SEVEN, yes we are rebuiling again but this is the MLS, you have to demand more. This club can win this year, but they will not if there is not pressure on them.

I have like what I have see on the field ( in relative terms of course) but they need to get results. Supporters should tell them, we need to see results, and not once again, well it takes time....

If a club has a sound and professional infrastructure, I'd agree with this 100%. I do not know if most people agree with this, but I personally do not think for the last 6 seasons this team has had anything close to a professional set up, as most of us would expect from a football club. Maybe on the business and marketing side, but not football side. As a result, I personally believe Nelsen et al when he tries to explain how this club was not at ground zero when they got here but six feet under.

Do you think TFC is anywhere close to Houston or Los Angeles? In terms of leadership, culture etc? Those are, IMO, good examples of a clubs being able to bounce back in one year and do well.

I also agree a club should be able to be competitive in a season - but I'm not willing to discount how fucked up this club was over the last three seasons and it will likely take more than one to clean it up.

Initial B
04-16-2013, 02:46 PM
TFC may have been around for 7 years now, but this may as well be a year one expansion club - New President, New Coaches, New Players... You may as well forget everything that came before (I sure am trying to).

I agree with Yohan that chemistry is probably the most important element for MLS teams, and TFC simply didn't have any at the start of the preseason. Even adding players now will disrupt whatever chemistry is building between the players. The only place I see chemistry building now is the back line, which should be stable for the next 2 years barring injuries. It looks to me like KP is looking to get our defensive core in place this year with the defenders and defensive midfielders (whenever they arrive this season) in place. The offense is another story - Silva will still be around in 2 years probably, but Koevs will be gone at the end of the season and the remaining players are all up in the air depending on how loans turn out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think my expectations are low, just realistic in terms of how long it will take the team to gel. I don't think we'll see what TFC is truely capable of until the end of the 2014 season. Is it frustrating? Sure. I ask myself why they couldn't have got it right in year one, but the answer keeps coming back to the incompetent triumverate of Tom Anselmi, Richard Peddie, and Larry Tannenbaum.

But most importantly, I think I've allowed my hopes to get up too many times only to have it dashed time-and-time again. (5-0 in NY, anyone?) I yelled and railed at management and all they did was panic and make short-sighed decisions to please the fanbase which got us in a worse position year after year as those three franticly tried to save their skins by throwing everyone else under the bus whenever it was to their advantage. Honestly, I'm afraid to hope for more, and that's sad. I'll take the little victories right now wherever they appear. Maybe next year I'll have built up enough confidence in the organization where I'll want to demand more.

Fort York Redcoat
04-16-2013, 03:12 PM
I want them to win every game they've drawn so far. Each time it was within their grasp. I want their roster to improve. It will at the end of the month.


Did you have anything specific in mind when making your demands?

Technorgasm
04-16-2013, 03:16 PM
maybe im in the minority here, but my expectations have been the same since day one.
score in every home game.
win , lose or draw.

It would be FANTASTIC if we were to win, fget post season ect.
But I go, and continue to be interested in this team for the folks I love in the stands.

They dont change, the personnel of the squad does.
I guess I take a much longer view on the team as a hole, while take MASSIVE pleasure from complaining about every granual detail.. . .

ONWARD!
FEAR FREE!

MartinUtd
04-16-2013, 03:28 PM
Broken promise fatigue?

I get the the lower expectations, but I agree they shouldn't be THAT low. The people that think a point/game is a sign of improvement leave me scratching my head, but at the same time I don't expect playoffs and the voyagers cup. We're capable of it, especially with the two signings we're supposed to be locking up, I just don't see any results as a guarantee after 4 managers in two and a half seasons (the rate of turnover has actually increased over time).

prizby
04-16-2013, 03:29 PM
Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre.

some have tried to speak up, but get drown out; others just leave

TOBOR !
04-16-2013, 03:30 PM
Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre. This year, I cannot believe what low expectations so many of the supporters have set for this team. FOR FUCK SAKES this is year SEVEN, yes we are rebuiling again but this is the MLS, you have to demand more. This club can win this year, but they will not if there is not pressure on them.

I have like what I have see on the field ( in relative terms of course) but they need to get results. Supporters should tell them, we need to see results, and not once again, well it takes time....

Madness.

jabbronies
04-16-2013, 03:53 PM
Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre. This year, I cannot believe what low expectations so many of the supporters have set for this team. FOR FUCK SAKES this is year SEVEN, yes we are rebuiling again but this is the MLS, you have to demand more. This club can win this year, but they will not if there is not pressure on them.

I have like what I have see on the field ( in relative terms of course) but they need to get results. Supporters should tell them, we need to see results, and not once again, well it takes time....

And every year, around this time of the season, we have the same thing happen. Someone comes on the board and starts to demand more and takes a knock at the culture the RPB presumably to stand for.

As Prizby mentioned earlier, there are supporters out there who are demanding more.
Have you tried to reach out to them and maybe get something tangible started? Instead of just complaining on this message board maybe starting a protest with those guys on their messageboard/facebook wall or even painting a banner yourself or with those others that tells people running the team to get off their ass or get fired?

Reality is: this team as it is is mediocre. KP has brought in some good talent in the short time he's been here (Earnshaw, Callif, Bendik) and is still trying to bring in more (2 Argentine players). There is an active search happen to make this team better. Players who are not working out are not getting those long drawn out chances to gel with the team (Cesar) as with previous coaches. We are not committing to guys unless they prove themselves (Bostock) and we are still getting results with this half assed team so Nelsen must be doing something right, no?

TFC07
04-16-2013, 03:55 PM
I agree. It shouldn't be too hard to quickly rebuild this team and try to make it to the playoffs this year. Players coming from summer transfer plus Danny K coming back is going to be a huge boost for the club. Hopefully by then, we are striking distance of making to the playoffs.

OgtheDim
04-16-2013, 03:55 PM
Realistic expectations are good. Given where we were, a point a game this year is realistic.

jabbronies
04-16-2013, 04:09 PM
I agree. It shouldn't be too hard to quickly rebuild this team and try to make it to the playoffs this year. Players coming from summer transfer plus Danny K coming back is going to be a huge boost for the club. Hopefully by then, we are striking distance of making to the playoffs.

Exactly. Summer window should give us a better idea of where we stand for the playoffs.
At the end of the day it's the product on the field that will determine if we get in or not.

Our current product isn't there yet, it has the possibility to squeek in though depending on what happens between now and the end of that window.
With this team as is, we are 2 points out of a playoff spot. I don't think protesting and demanding anything substantial is in order just yet.

ensco
04-16-2013, 04:11 PM
Given our cap/talent situation, we were worse than an expansion team on January 1.

Starting from where Payne was when he was hired, 90% of fans, given the choice between being an expansion team or keeping what we had, would have thrown all of our players away and started over.

Demanding "what works for the rest of MLS" is really kind of childish in a salary cap league, as the talent level and cap situation determines all .... what others could do in different circumstances has no relevance to the below-sea-level restart going on here.

bigredone
04-16-2013, 04:20 PM
Some drag there feelings and expectations of other MLSE franchises to this one. They can be such a downer the two of them.:D

brad
04-16-2013, 04:26 PM
Rebuilding is not necessarily quick in this league. It can be in some circumstances (ie NYRB), in others cases it is not. Some of the better squads in this league took a few years to build (RSL, SKC, San Jose). A big determinant is how tied your hands are by the players you have (ie too many big contracts), and how much you have to trade around (IE players that other people want). Just beacuse one team did it quick, doesn't mean another can.

Lets face it - TFC was a mess in this regards up until now (to an extent we still are overpaying some, but getting better). Way too many bloated contracts, over 1/3 of our cap tied up in 3 DPs that were injured or under performing for the bulk of the season, players that no other team in their right mind would want, a 'beaten before setting foot on the field" losing mentality, and a dreadful, dreadful reputation around the league as a terrible place to play. We dug a deep whole over the years, and need to dig out of it.

As much as I would like to see better now, I have to align where we were with the reality of things, and waving a magic wand and hoping for better isn't going to do much. The mess needs to be cleaned. The bloated contract situation needed sorted and under performing players needed to be moved. Both of which were done in the off season to a degree. I suspect that bringing in Payne was a massive benefit to the clubs relations around the league, people are now dealing with a well know and respected figure in the league as opposed to the known snakes we've had in the past.

We've done a decent job of bringing in players IMHO - the spine of the team looks to be better. It's pretty obvious that we need some more quality on the pitch to improve things, but hopefully that is coming.

In a perfect world, MLSE would have made the whole coach switch last year, given the new management plenty of additional time to dump contracts and add players much earlier than they did.

But the reality is:

the changes were made late, and we got off to a late start
The players we have still need time to gel. In many cases, they still need time to adapt to new team/league. You can't throw together a completely new group of players and expect them to be on the same page without actual playing experience.
Timing of player availability is highly dependent on the European transfer window. We can't always just get the players we want/need in the off season (as an aside, this is a big question I have with this rebuild. If Nelsen has things lined up for some quality when the window opens, it will make a lot of sense why we are holding on players now).
No manager hits 100% with their transfers, not even close. The best in the business bring in flops routinely, so to expect an MLS manager to knock it out of the park with all their signings is unrealistic. Basically, I expect a number of players to flop by the nature of the process.


So that's where I sit - I can beat my head against the wall expecting more - but knowing the reality is it will take time, or I can accept it for what it is.

Shakes McQueen
04-16-2013, 04:41 PM
So should we organize a "we like what we see on the field, but RESULTS!" protest? As ensco said, we are starting from an absolutely shit position here.

It being year seven is a testament to this team's historical bungling, but is sort of irrelevant to assessing or setting expectations for a brand new management group, operating from a brand new set of circumstances.

Yeah, they need to do better - the continuing fuckery late in games is particularly heartwrenching, and has cost us a handful of points already. But considering it's April, and considering we generally approve of how the new guys are operating thus far, I don't know what action is expected here. If not a protest, then what? You just want more seething discontent in general?

Take a look in the last game thread - there are plenty of folks who weren't altogether pleased with how things unfolded. We need a stronger message for actual large-scale action, than "WE THINK YOU COULD BE BETTER!", or "WE KNOW YOU'VE ONLY BEEN IN CHARGE A LITTLE WHILE, BUT... C'MON!"

If you want to have a good, in-depth discussion about what you see as this team's issues, then make the thread. I'm sure plenty of people would love to have the conversation with you. As long as you aren't a dick about it - go nuts.

- Scott

[NBF]
04-16-2013, 05:50 PM
Broken promise fatigue? <<<<<<<<<===========================AWESOME

I get the the lower expectations, but I agree they shouldn't be THAT low. The people that think a point/game is a sign of improvement leave me scratching my head, but at the same time I don't expect playoffs and the voyagers cup. We're capable of it, especially with the two signings we're supposed to be locking up, I just don't see any results as a guarantee after 4 managers in two and a half seasons (the rate of turnover has actually increased over time).

Good Job. You get a cookie. I agree 100%

Abou Sky
04-16-2013, 05:59 PM
Note, 1pt/game is still 6pts more than we had last year after 6 games.

If you want a winner, go support ManU or Barcelona.

People support a lot worse teams their entire life. Imagine being a Ayr supporter in Scotland. You don't even get cup wins.

TFC is fielding a team I can be proud of and which I enjoy watching. That is enough for me.

All that said, some more wins would be lovely.

ag futbol
04-16-2013, 06:09 PM
I'm not setting expectations high because it just perpetuates what we saw previously: short term decision making that appeared to help right away but long term screwed us. Management incompetence was probably the larger factor, but the short term focus never helped.

That's not to say my expectations are nothing, but as someone else already mentioned, we are starting from below sea level. The club has never had a proper front office structure and to make matters worse it is saddled with bad contracts. Lot to fix in a short period of time. MLS build times aren't what they used to be.

I expect improvement this year, to add useable players and to most likely make the playoffs in 2014 and in the years following. Short run "why isn't it happening now?" be damned. It's scar on the way football teams operate where people are used to looking two months ahead at a time without regard to what happens after that.

FluSH
04-16-2013, 06:55 PM
You don't need The RPB for this. I am part of this group and I will always be the 12th man... The only crap I regret doing is protesting.

This can be year 20 and I will still be here.

Loyalty, Honour, and Respect

Shakes McQueen
04-16-2013, 07:02 PM
I can appreciate a good protest, as long as there's a strong, coherent reason for it. None exists at the present moment.

- Scott

FluSH
04-16-2013, 07:06 PM
I can appreciate a good protest, as long as there's a strong, coherent reason for it. None exists at the present moment.

- Scott

And don't get me wrong... I've protested with The RPB against my own personal beliefs. Once A decision was made I followed...

denime
04-16-2013, 08:04 PM
You don't need The RPB for this. I am part of this group and I will always be the 12th man... The only crap I regret doing is protesting.

This can be year 20 and I will still be here.

Loyalty, Honour, and Respect

Agree!

BuSaPuNk
04-16-2013, 08:18 PM
^ +2

Cashcleaner
04-17-2013, 12:21 AM
I can't say I blame Trane because to be honest, I feel the same at times as well.

We're not a good team. In fact, we're the epitome of below-average. Sure, we're not the Sounders who are currently languishing in the basement with no wins to their name, but even facing mid-table teams has been a challenge for us. We can try to pin the blame for Sunday's draw on the ref all we want, but a very mediocre Philadelphia Union really outplayed that day, and if we can't compete with those kinds of teams then we're just gonna keep slipping in the standings.

That said, however, I think one point needs to be made. Toronto FC's current state is so much more indicative of the previous boss's incompetence and lack of vision than it is of the current staff's knoweldge, skill, and leadership. To put it bluntly, things were so badly screwed up during the previous six seasons that it will take us much longer than most clubs to "rebuild" themselves.

Understand this: I'm the first guy to point out that so many other clubs in this league have been able to rebuild within the span of a season and in previous seasons I would never accept that as a convenient excuse for our misfortunes, but my eyes have really been opened up recently about just how toxic the atmosphere at the club was for so many years.

Personally, I think Payne is a big step up from our previous pseudo-President and Nelsen has my support as well. I can see the changes they are trying to implement and while it's still incredibly frustrating to see us stumble and bumble along like we did on Sunday, I finally have a sense that we have a legitimate, honest to goodness, long-term strategy in place for this club and the beginnings of a distinct team culture.

dutch
04-17-2013, 01:07 AM
am I missing somthing? Who or what do you see is wrong with the management or starting 11?
No manager could have done better in such short time imo.
The amount of garbage he removed was incredible. somthing like 11 players in the first 60 days on the job I believe.
Before the season started we just wanted a team who dosent quit, and I am so thankfull for what I've gotten so far.
Nelson is pure class, I wouldnt trade him for any other MLS coach.
The guys on the pitch need minutes togethor. We havent even had 10 games yet!
If your unrealistic expectations have not been met after 6 games, Im sorry.
Personally I see nowhere to go but up.

"The players that put on a Toronto shirt and walk out (over) that white line and represent the club are expected certain standards," he added. "And if they drop them or don't adhere to them, then there's no future at the club."
Ryan Nelson

Brooker
04-17-2013, 03:52 AM
Hmm.... Why would a TFC fan have low expectations, whether justified or not.....

Let me go make a list and if I don't shoot myself in the face, I'll come back and post them.

;)

Oldtimer
04-17-2013, 07:19 AM
Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre. This year, I cannot believe what low expectations so many of the supporters have set for this team. FOR FUCK SAKES this is year SEVEN, yes we are rebuiling again but this is the MLS, you have to demand more. This club can win this year, but they will not if there is not pressure on them.

I have like what I have see on the field ( in relative terms of course) but they need to get results. Supporters should tell them, we need to see results, and not once again, well it takes time....

Nothing would be worse for this team at this time than to have unrealistic expectations to "win now," leading to what when they fail: boycotts, angry outbursts, protests?

It's exactly that kind of thinking that had the Leafs in hockey give up solid draft picks to trade for aging players in an effort to "win now" leading to almost a decade of futility. That's what we want for TFC?

A one-year turnaround is totally unrealistic for a team like TFC that was left with no cap space, a roster that was turned into total crap by some shorts-wearing maniac, and a record that placed it at the very bottom of MLS and at the bottom of the world for part of the season. And what, you want TFC to totally turn around and win the MLS Cup? With a rookie coach, a brand new scouting network (remember TFC never had a scouting network before), and a disfunctional front office that still needs some house-cleaning (Earl Cochrane), as well as not yet having been able to sign any new DPs to replace Frings and JDG? That's really what you expect?

What are you going to do, stand outside the stadium with a sign denouncing the front office if they don't make the playoffs in the first year of the new management?

I think that Payne has done a fantastic job as GM, clearing out as much crap as he could in a couple of months, setting up a scouting network from scratch, and hiring a gem of a coach who seems to be very highly respected and learning quickly. Nelsen has over-achieved my expectations in how he's gotten really poor players to play a decent game. But let's get real: Payne's/Nelsen's rebuilt TFC won't be playing until 2014.

Just enjoy this season for what it is: the occasional brilliant play, a few wins, being competitive for some games, but otherwise a total write-off. It's certainly better than last year!


Given our cap/talent situation, we were worse than an expansion team on January 1.

Starting from where Payne was when he was hired, 90% of fans, given the choice between being an expansion team or keeping what we had, would have thrown all of our players away and started over.

Demanding "what works for the rest of MLS" is really kind of childish in a salary cap league, as the talent level and cap situation determines all .... what others could do in different circumstances has no relevance to the below-sea-level restart going on here.

I wish it wasn't true, but ensco you've realistically painted where we were at January 1st.

Imagine, if Garber/MLS hadn't had stepped in, we would be in even worse shape with Cochrane as GM, Mr. Shorts as coach screaming on the sidelines, and Anselmi still trying to (incompetently) run things. Now we're seeing positive change and some hope for the future. Let's not get ahead of ourselves and demand instant success.

tfcleeds
04-17-2013, 08:06 AM
You can argue that we should be in a better position than we are currently, and sure, we've had a couple of rather unfortunate results recently, losing full points late on. But all I know is we're six points better at this stage than we were last season, and I see tangible signs of progress. I'm not about to panic yet. We were one of the worst sides in football history, let alone, MLS history last season, so getting over that and establishing a squad that can compete for honours in the upcoming seasons are high enough expectations as far as I'm concerned. No one would have expected us to win the league in Year 1. This is Year 1 redux, essentially wiping the slate clean and starting over again.

TFC_Allez
04-17-2013, 08:17 AM
am I missing somthing? Who or what do you see is wrong with the management or starting 11?
No manager could have done better in such short time imo.
The amount of garbage he removed was incredible. somthing like 11 players in the first 60 days on the job I believe.
Before the season started we just wanted a team who dosent quit, and I am so thankfull for what I've gotten so far.
Nelson is pure class, I wouldnt trade him for any other MLS coach.
The guys on the pitch need minutes togethor. We havent even had 10 games yet!
If your unrealistic expectations have not been met after 6 games, Im sorry.
Personally I see nowhere to go but up.

"The players that put on a Toronto shirt and walk out (over) that white line and represent the club are expected certain standards," he added. "And if they drop them or don't adhere to them, then there's no future at the club."
Ryan Nelson

Bravo! Well said, and I completely agree.

There's no need to get whipped into a lather about being a point a game team at this point in the season. Frankly, if that's how the season turns out, I personally think it'll be a successful year compared to initial predictions. Does this mean I'm settling? Not a chance. Does this mean I'm apathetic? Nope. Does this mean I have low expectations? Nope. It means I'm reasonable and realistic. The fact that we have points shows an improvement in all areas. If it were 2012 all over again (Thank god it isn't!), we'd be going another 4 games without ANY points. Put things in perspective.

There's no need for another protest, if that's even what was initially alluded to. This team is on the right track for once. With some helpful Argentines (hopefully), and going into the summer transfer window with an open DP slot and cash...I think we'll be just fine.

glaze
04-17-2013, 08:39 AM
Why would we take out 6 years of frustration on this team?
MLSE almost gave us the tickets for free this year, they brought in a new front office and made many changes to the lineup. And so far there have been results.
We could sneak into the playoffs this year and if not that seems like a reasonable goal for '14.
We don't have to pretend the last 6 years didn't happen, but it's a lot more fun to walk into BMO with some optimism. I think this current team has given us that

JuliquE
04-17-2013, 09:36 AM
Hmm.... Why would a TFC fan have low expectations, whether justified or not.....

Let me go make a list and if I don't shoot myself in the face, I'll come back and post them.

;)
hahhaaha

T-boy
04-17-2013, 09:45 AM
Maybe its from who I support back in England, but my expectations are always fairly low. I've supported Oxford all my life, and always will. I supported them from the first division through to relegation from the football league. But I will support them forever and ever! From my perspective, football is based on tiny highs and lots of lows, so what I'm personally experiencing with TFC is nothing new for me. I'll wait another ten years to get in the play offs, it doesn't make any difference to me! Of course I WANT TFC to be successful, but constant success has never been my experience in football supporting.

So does that mean I need to raise my expectations? I would say no, but then again, I don't have an experience of success anyways.

trane
04-17-2013, 10:34 AM
Broken promise fatigue?

I get the the lower expectations, but I agree they shouldn't be THAT low. The people that think a point/game is a sign of improvement leave me scratching my head, but at the same time I don't expect playoffs and the voyagers cup. We're capable of it, especially with the two signings we're supposed to be locking up, I just don't see any results as a guarantee after 4 managers in two and a half seasons (the rate of turnover has actually increased over time).

This is my point, and no I am not calling for a protest, and I pretty happy with new management and as I said I think that it has looked ok, but there have been many points left on the filed, and I hope that will soon stop. my problem is rely the expectation of supporters, not rely with the new management or club, but I am reading these board, and particularly the thread about who many points this year, and I read to many excuses already given to the club as to why it should not it cannot be expected to succeed this year, and I sorry but this is a culture of underachievement.

I am just disappointed by it. Again I see nothing on the filed that is so negative that we need to protest at this point, nor do I feel there is a need for any firings or changes, but christ, should we not hope that the club is truly competitive this year, that at least at BMO we are close to being a fortress, that in this league that so many make into the playoffs we are not out of the race by June?

Yohan
04-17-2013, 10:36 AM
And the 6 games TFC has played so far has to be hardest schedule for an MLS team early season. 5 out of 6 are likely going to make the playoffs and Philly is borderline. Doesn't get any easier against MLS Cup finalists Houston and the one after is New York and we all know how much Henry loves to score on TFC.

Yohan
04-17-2013, 10:40 AM
This is my point, and no I am not calling for a protest, and I pretty happy with new management and as I said I think that it has looked ok, but there have been many points left on the filed, and I hope that will soon stop. my problem is rely the expectation of supporters, not rely with the new management or club, but I am reading these board, and particularly the thread about who many points this year, and I read to many excuses already given to the club as to why it should not it cannot be expected to succeed this year, and I sorry but this is a culture of underachievement.

I am just disappointed by it. Again I see nothing on the filed that is so negative that we need to protest at this point, nor do I feel there is a need for any firings or changes, but christ, should we not hope that the club is truly competitive this year, that at least at BMO we are close to being a fortress, that in this league that so many make into the playoffs we are not out of the race by June?
Well, TFC hasn't lost at home yet so far this season. Does that count? ;)

But I hear you. I don't expect TFC to make the playoffs, however, part of my expectation is that TFC is competitive every game and with that expectation, TFC should be close to playoffs. At least, not out of it by June.

trane
04-17-2013, 10:44 AM
^ I do not disagree, and I understand why people assumed that I was calling for protests and changes and firings, but that was not the point, it was rely about our expectations.

I believe in the new management, and I believe in the new manager, I believe in the style/system, and it is too early to be really critical, but by June I hope we are a better a more competitive team and that this is a season of real growth and not stagnation. I will not be disappointed if we do not make the playoffs, but I will be disappointed if come mid summer we are still the team we are today, in terms of results and mistakes. BUT I am not going to pledge blind loyalty to this management group just yet.

[ Yes not losing at home does count allot]

Phil
04-17-2013, 10:45 AM
Well, TFC hasn't lost at home yet so far this season. Does that count? ;)

But I hear you. I don't expect TFC to make the playoffs, however, part of my expectation is that TFC is competitive every game and with that expectation, TFC should be close to playoffs. At least, not out of it by June.

I think the last two games we stole points. A good sign to a degree. The late surrender shows a mental issue vs the physical issues in the past. In some ways that may be tougher to overcome but its been a pretty stacked start of the season for us as you pointed out.

brad
04-17-2013, 11:13 AM
^ I do not disagree, and I understand why people assumed that I was calling for protests and changes and firings, but that was not the point, it was rely about our expectations.

I believe in the new management, and I believe in the new manager, I believe in the style/system, and it is too early to be really critical, but by June I hope we are a better a more competitive team and that this is a season of real growth and not stagnation. I will not be disappointed if we do not make the playoffs, but I will be disappointed if come mid summer we are still the team we are today, in terms of results and mistakes. BUT I am not going to pledge blind loyalty to this management group just yet.

[ Yes not losing at home does count allot]

Bolded bit is what I feel 100% as well.

I am not giving faith to MLSE/TFC at all anymore. I've done that for 6 years - and as the old saying goes - "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". I'm not sure what I would say about fool me six times though...But I'm also not writing them off. I'm waiting to see what they deliver.

Anyway, I'm cautiously optimistic, but the mean time I am taking a wait and see approach. I see positives for sure, but it's too early to tell. But even so - I reserve any judgement until I see actual results.

My only expectation this year from August until the end of season, we should be a competitive team. I don't expect us to be worldbeaters, but I expect a decent quality of MLS football, and strong signs that we are getting closer to being competitive. Ideally, we should be picking up points from then until the end of the season that would see us in a playoff position (comfortably) if extrapolated over the season.

Why August 1st? That give over a month in the summer window to strengthen the team and allow those new signings some time to adapt. It also gives the current core of players enough time to develop some rudimentary chemistry.

I am also very curios to see how Nelsen/Payne maneuver in the summer window. Strong moves early in the window will imply to me that they had a plan going in and where waiting on the summer window to execute.

Phil
04-17-2013, 11:25 AM
The biggest issue I have is that they ditched Winter during the process that they oversold to everyone in that stadium.

Right there it makes me hesitant to put too much behind this current group without seeing some kind of result. So far, its not too bad all things considered. Brad has a very good point about the summer window and that is probably the best indicator we will have about real direction.

Oldtimer
04-17-2013, 11:29 AM
This is my point, and no I am not calling for a protest, and I pretty happy with new management and as I said I think that it has looked ok, but there have been many points left on the filed, and I hope that will soon stop. my problem is rely the expectation of supporters, not rely with the new management or club, but I am reading these board, and particularly the thread about who many points this year, and I read to many excuses already given to the club as to why it should not it cannot be expected to succeed this year, and I sorry but this is a culture of underachievement.

I am just disappointed by it. Again I see nothing on the filed that is so negative that we need to protest at this point, nor do I feel there is a need for any firings or changes, but christ, should we not hope that the club is truly competitive this year, that at least at BMO we are close to being a fortress, that in this league that so many make into the playoffs we are not out of the race by June?

It's not management that are giving these as excuses, it's us being realistic. A "culture of failure" could be used to describe ML$E, at least under the Teachers' Pension Plan, but it's not our job to turn things around. It's their job! It's our job to support.

I don't think any of us are going to drink the Koolaid that a total turnaround is possible right away, and and if anyone at ML$E promised something like that, one would be right to be extremely skeptical. In fact I'll come right out and say it's not possible given where the team started from.

brad
04-17-2013, 11:52 AM
The biggest issue I have is that they ditched Winter during the process that they oversold to everyone in that stadium.

Right there it makes me hesitant to put too much behind this current group without seeing some kind of result. So far, its not too bad all things considered. Brad has a very good point about the summer window and that is probably the best indicator we will have about real direction.

This is a key thing for me as well (well - that on top of the previous seasons issues). I don't have an issue with Winter getting let go - that was warranted. What I have an issue with is that they did not replace him with someone to continue in the philosophy that was laid out (DeKlerk could have been interim if we didn't have a replacement lined up). We got 70's British Football from Mariner instead. To me - the takeaway was that I was sold a marketing message, not an actual football ideology as promised. I'm not bitter towards them, I am now taking an approach to believing nothing promised, only what I see.

dutch
04-17-2013, 11:52 AM
"The biggest issue I have is that they ditched Winter during the process that they oversold to everyone in that stadium."
Seriously? I remember halfway through the season. His losses were huge, his iron will not to change things even bigger.
It had to happen.

jabbronies
04-17-2013, 12:09 PM
am I missing somthing? Who or what do you see is wrong with the management or starting 11?
No manager could have done better in such short time imo.
The amount of garbage he removed was incredible. somthing like 11 players in the first 60 days on the job I believe.
Before the season started we just wanted a team who dosent quit, and I am so thankfull for what I've gotten so far.
Nelson is pure class, I wouldnt trade him for any other MLS coach.
The guys on the pitch need minutes togethor. We havent even had 10 games yet!
If your unrealistic expectations have not been met after 6 games, Im sorry.
Personally I see nowhere to go but up.

"The players that put on a Toronto shirt and walk out (over) that white line and represent the club are expected certain standards," he added. "And if they drop them or don't adhere to them, then there's no future at the club."
Ryan Nelson

Dutch - Sometime I feel like the conversations had on this board are more fantaic than actual support. Meaning topics and comments are made with next to no judgement or reason.

I do agree with you - The fact that we have gotten to a place where Andrew Weideman isn't our most prolific striker and Terry Dunfield isn't the lynchpin of our starting lineup - should say a lot about the amount of change this team has had in such a short amount of time.

Yes - we do have a team mainly made of average MLS players. But it's a foundation of players that can actually play football that we can now build on. we now need to bring in those players who are a step above the rest to push us into contention. If Danny K can come back in the form he was before he left and Mr Jumping Bean, Robert Earnshaw, can continue in his current form - We will have the most prolific striking duo in the league.

If these Argentines ever come in and actually do work out - our midfield could get a lot more dangerous. Add a consistent back line lead by O'Dea and Callif (Which could very well happen the more these guys play together) - again, we are pretty decent MLS side. Middle of the pack for sure IMO.

But again - too many if's right now to really say anything for sure. But we are not that dire just yet.

Phil
04-17-2013, 12:18 PM
"The biggest issue I have is that they ditched Winter during the process that they oversold to everyone in that stadium."
Seriously? I remember halfway through the season. His losses were huge, his iron will not to change things even bigger.
It had to happen.

Well, Brad nailed it. I get the guy needed to be shown the door but they promised this whole package that had a specific system. Told us it would be a labour of love, friggen pounded it at us for over a year. Then bam, route 1 football and a shambles of a football system. When I refer to that removal its actually about the abandonment of the principal.

The new regime is putting their own direction on it and I support it but I am very much in a wait and see mode given the past now. Its my bad for not expanding on the idea.

jabbronies
04-17-2013, 12:19 PM
"The biggest issue I have is that they ditched Winter during the process that they oversold to everyone in that stadium."
Seriously? I remember halfway through the season. His losses were huge, his iron will not to change things even bigger.
It had to happen.

I don't disagree with that....but I don't agree it should've been done when it was.
Season was already lost at that point. They should've let him try and salvage what he could from the league and get us in a good place in CCL (which IMO was his strong suit) At the same time looking for someone to replace him so the transition wouldn't have been so devastating. Can him at the end of the season - at least we would've had some structure to work with going into this year.

Thank God Mariner didn't get rid of Silva...the dumb ass actually came out and said he wouldn't have picked him in the draft and couldn't see what the hype was around him...

Auzzy
04-17-2013, 12:25 PM
"The biggest issue I have is that they ditched Winter during the process that they oversold to everyone in that stadium."
Seriously? I remember halfway through the season. His losses were huge, his iron will not to change things even bigger.
It had to happen.


Well, Brad nailed it. I get the guy needed to be shown the door but they promised this whole package that had a specific system. Told us it would be a labour of love, friggen pounded it at us for over a year. Then bam, route 1 football and a shambles of a football system. When I refer to that removal its actually about the abandonment of the principal.

The new regime is putting their own direction on it and I support it but I am very much in a wait and see mode given the past now. Its my bad for not expanding on the idea.

BAM, Brad & Phil said it. Plus we found out for certain later, the club never actually committed to the new "system" in the first place, even while they were marketing it to us actively. The hired a built-in escape hatch in terms of Mariner (and kept Cochrane) at the same time as Winter. Confirmed by both Mariner & Winter, those two were opposed to much of what Winter did, and they brought in some crap players (in addition to whatever Winter screwed up himself). Then they triggered the escape hatch, unfortunately it only took us from the frying pan to the fire.

Plus the fact that they dumped Winter when they knew there was going to be an MLSE ownership change shortly, so likely more changes to come a few months down the road.

Phil
04-17-2013, 12:38 PM
I think its appropriate to mention this here. Even though many of us are on the 'wait and see' side of things, that doesn't mean I wont be at every game screaming myself hoarse and supporting this team for the full 90 in the stands.

prizby
04-17-2013, 01:08 PM
I think its appropriate to mention this here. Even though many of us are on the 'wait and see' side of things, that doesn't mean I wont be at every game screaming myself hoarse and supporting this team for the full 90 in the stands.

this; wish everyone else had this mentality

trane
04-17-2013, 01:52 PM
Well, Brad nailed it. I get the guy needed to be shown the door but they promised this whole package that had a specific system. Told us it would be a labour of love, friggen pounded it at us for over a year. Then bam, route 1 football and a shambles of a football system. When I refer to that removal its actually about the abandonment of the principal.

The new regime is putting their own direction on it and I support it but I am very much in a wait and see mode given the past now. Its my bad for not expanding on the idea.

I agree with you on Winter. I was one of those that called for his firing, when it seemed clear to me that he just could not get wins, and that we were losing another year. BUT I also found the complete abandonment of the philosophy and the hiring of the man that should also have been held responsible troubling. AND yet I tried to give Mariner a chance, and what happened happened.

My stance now is reflected in your words "the new regime is putting their own direction on it and I support it but I am very much in a wait and see mode". I just believe that is the responsible stance.

I have to say if there is one thing that I would like to see is that opposing teams are afraid of coming to BMO, and we do play a large part in that.

Abou Sky
04-17-2013, 02:07 PM
If these Argentines ever come in and actually do work out - our midfield could get a lot more dangerous. Add a consistent back line lead by O'Dea and Callif (Which could very well happen the more these guys play together) - again, we are pretty decent MLS side. Middle of the pack for sure IMO.


And if they don't, which is very likely. I will still support a team that looks like the one that I have seen play since game 1 vs. ShiteCraps

TRY and I will support you, FIGHT and I will support you, NEVER EVER GIVE UP and I will support you (maybe this is the root of my love of Dunfield)

What I want SOOOO badly, is to end the revolving door of mercenaries and have guys put that shirt on who LOVE that they are wearing the red. I want guys like Bostock, Agboussemonde and all the other young boys to say "I am here at 21 and I want to be here at 35, I want MY jersey up on that wall of honour"

ag futbol
04-17-2013, 02:48 PM
Regarding Aron Winter: I'm disappointed about how they organized (use that term loosely) the staff around him, disappointed with who they replaced him with, abandoning the 'plan', but in terms of firing him: that was 100% on the money. He had a whole year to gather strength, the players brought in were bad and he put dependency on old, injury prone DPs. We lost a large string of games and he was done. Makes perfect sense to me. If the team was truely progressing and improving that wouldn't have happened, so it shot the credibility of his ability as a manager.

As for the current lot: one year clean up. Year two performance. Think that's a fair standard to hold to

pawlukj
04-17-2013, 06:50 PM
i agree with the original poster (trane) and ive advocated in the past a "revival" so to speak of when this place was a fortress.. not knocking our supporters but when we dont expect to win that shows in the stands and the players feed off that ultimately a self fuflfilling prophecy happens.. we need ot be loud and go for the gusto

Shakes McQueen
04-17-2013, 07:25 PM
^ I do not disagree, and I understand why people assumed that I was calling for protests and changes and firings, but that was not the point, it was rely about our expectations.

I believe in the new management, and I believe in the new manager, I believe in the style/system, and it is too early to be really critical, but by June I hope we are a better a more competitive team and that this is a season of real growth and not stagnation. I will not be disappointed if we do not make the playoffs, but I will be disappointed if come mid summer we are still the team we are today, in terms of results and mistakes. BUT I am not going to pledge blind loyalty to this management group just yet.

[ Yes not losing at home does count allot]

I don't really think anyone has "pledged loyalty" to the new management team. Some people might be enthusiastic or optimistic at the moment, or some people might want to make placards and banners that say nice things about them (for now), but that's just having some "belief" in the new regime, as you said you have.

If this team sucks a few months from now, I expect the milk to turn sour pretty fast. People loved Preki at first, too.

- Scott