Montreal vs Seattle on TV [Archive] - Red Patch Boys Forums

SoccMan

03-05-2013, 08:55 AM

Auzzy

03-05-2013, 09:29 AM

Hey "Jazzy" you use the phrase " Montreal's Italian love", well you can say the same thing for TFC just substitute the word Italian and insert English and you get " Toronto's English love". I think TFC have more players from England than Montreal has from Italy or just about the same I would venture to guess. It seems people like to make a big deal about Montreal and the I think 4 players it has from Italy well what about the 4 or more TFC players from England? I don't think it makes Montreal an " Italian team" just like having a number of players from England makes TFC an "English team" .

Do you consider Wales, Scotland, and Ireland to be part of England?

Adam

03-05-2013, 09:41 AM

No big deal. I think its understood what he meant by english

Fort York Redcoat

03-05-2013, 09:46 AM

Hey "Jazzy" you use the phrase " Montreal's Italian love", well you can say the same thing for TFC just substitute the word Italian and insert English and you get " Toronto's English love". I think TFC have more players from England than Montreal has from Italy or just about the same I would venture to guess. It seems people like to make a big deal about Montreal and the I think 4 players it has from Italy well what about the 4 or more TFC players from England? I don't think it makes Montreal an " Italian team" just like having a number of players from England makes TFC an "English team" .

What part of what he said is offensive? Saying Montreal has a predisposition on Italian players and are doing well seems a bit oversensitive. And making a big deal comes with a team doing well. The names they got? A big deal. I don't really care for them doing well but I understand why people would talk about it.

tfcleeds

03-05-2013, 09:48 AM

SoccMan

03-05-2013, 10:37 AM

I did not take it to be offensive, why assume that I took it to be offensive, I was just saying that if someone is going to point out that Montreal has an Italian love for the fact that it has a number of Italian players then one can also say TFC has an English love or more correctly British love for the fact it has a number of players from the British Isles. Who cares where they are from in the end as long as the team is winning is what matters, that was the point I was trying to make from the start.

ManUtd4ever

03-05-2013, 10:48 AM

JoeyB

03-05-2013, 12:15 PM

I fully expect Montreal will be a better club than us this year - hope they enjoy their veteran-laden team while it lasts. Ferrari, Di Vaio, Nesta, Pisanu. Bernier is no spring chicken either, nor is Arnaud. Let's see how Schallibaum does in a couple of years when he has to build a team from the ground up.

Typical cool aid drinker. Sports means winning now and not having a continuously changing 5 year plan to win at some point. When Di Vaio and the gang leaves, he'll bring in a new bunch that will be competitive.

tfcleeds

03-05-2013, 12:17 PM

^Glad you signed up just to say that. Impact fan I'm wagering?

JoeyB

03-05-2013, 12:26 PM

Montreal has a very fickle fan base, even for the Habs. Saputo is all too familiar with that reality, which is why he felt the need to field a veteran lineup that can compete right now.

If Montreal started in MLS with a young core and an a eye on building a competitive team long term, and endured a few losing seasons in the process, the fans would turn their back on the franchise quickly. Hell, they even had issues with attendance last year in their inaugral season and Montreal was one of the most successful expansion teams in MLS history.

Conversely, in T.O., we have been loyal to a fault.

They outdrew us. They were third in the league with 22K a game. I was at games last year when attendance was nowhere near the announced. You need to give credit where credit is due. As for the habs, the last time they dipped under 20K a game was in 2001.

And would you be loyal to a fault to a wife who lies and is shit with everything she does?

JoeyB

03-05-2013, 12:28 PM

^Glad you signed up just to say that. Impact fan I'm wagering?

I'm a huge Justin Braun fan. Huge disappointment junkie? love to fail? Come on, if were brining in say Polish players who gave us a winning team, you'd be on board even if we changed the roster week to week.

PRO sports is about results NOW.

OgtheDim

03-05-2013, 12:36 PM

Sports means winning now and not having a continuously changing 5 year plan to win at some point... .

Uh...no.

Follow footie at a level less then the top of the top and you'll see 5 year plans all the time. Many of them successful.

Heck, in the 3rd divisions of most countries, a 5-8 year plan is a necessity.

Its called dealing with economics.

At some point, the all veteran plan will fail. And then Montreal will have to go to what everybody else does - use cheap youth.

tfcleeds

03-05-2013, 12:38 PM

Well, we aren't going to win now. And our whole history as a club so far has been based on quick fixes, hoping somehow we'd squeak into the playoffs, regardless of whether the players we signed fit into the system (if we even had a "system" at all). So I'd rather build a solid base from which we can be a competitive team and have sustained success, not just for one or two years. Yeah, Montreal is in a better position than us now, and are arguably built to win now - that doesn't mean they will be in that position forever. Like I was referring to, after all their veteran players retire in the next few years, I'd like to see how they do vis-a-vis TFC then (if Payne and Nelsen are still running the show, which means they will have had some degree of success).

Yohan

03-05-2013, 12:44 PM

The turf monster will claim either di Vaio or Nesta. Mark my word...

JoeyB

03-05-2013, 01:01 PM

Uh...no.

Follow footie at a level less then the top of the top and you'll see 5 year plans all the time. Many of them successful.

Heck, in the 3rd divisions of most countries, a 5-8 year plan is a necessity.

Its called dealing with economics.

At some point, the all veteran plan will fail. And then Montreal will have to go to what everybody else does - use cheap youth.

You're wrong on all accounts as North America is very different than anywhere else. This is a league will very structure roster pay-roll. The league controls player movement. There is no promotion/ relegation system. When a player leaves, you replace him with a player of similar skills. Your DP's are extremely important just as important as the dime a dozen guys making 80K. The key isn't signing players for more than 2 years.

Look at Swansea. They don't have the same core of players now than they did when they were in League Two. 5 year plans aren't that important. You need players that win and win NOW. FFS. Whether that be in the Championship or in the MLS.

Yohan

03-05-2013, 01:12 PM

You're wrong on all accounts as North America is very different than anywhere else. This is a league will very structure roster pay-roll. The league controls player movement. There is no promotion/ relegation system. When a player leaves, you replace him with a player of similar skills. Your DP's are extremely important just as important as the dime a dozen guys making 80K. The key isn't signing players for more than 2 years.

Look at Swansea. They don't have the same core of players now than they did when they were in League Two. 5 year plans aren't that important. You need players that win and win NOW. FFS. Whether that be in the Championship or in the MLS.
This was MLS 1.0 thinking.

Looking at the best teams in MLS in last few years, RSL, Seattle, LA, SKC, they build rosters to last 3+ yrs.

You make it sound like finding quality players who can contribute right away for right salary is simple.

Greatest Ripoff

03-05-2013, 01:40 PM

Look at Swansea. They don't have the same core of players now than they did when they were in League Two. 5 year plans aren't that important. You need players that win and win NOW. FFS. Whether that be in the Championship or in the MLS.

They do a have a few players who were playing with them in league 2. Ashley Williams, Leon Britton and Gary Monk were all with the team in league 2 and Williams and Britton are starters every week. Also the staring RB Angel Rangel joined the team when they were in league 1. If anything, Swansea spent a good 10 years building a team and philosophy to get where they are now. If TFC spent that long most people on this board would commit suicide. Swansea are a great example of taking slow and doing it right by making decisions for the long term.

ManUtd4ever

03-05-2013, 01:49 PM

They outdrew us. They were third in the league with 22K a game. I was at games last year when attendance was nowhere near the announced. You need to give credit where credit is due. As for the habs, the last time they dipped under 20K a game was in 2001.

And would you be loyal to a fault to a wife who lies and is shit with everything she does?

Their attendance figures were misleading becasue of the games they held at Olympic stadium. Joey Saputo had to make a public plea for greater fan support last season and ended up offering a 15% discount to SSHs. In their inaugral season that was successful?!

As for the Habs, when they went through a brief dry spell about a decade ago (3 years without playoffs if I'm not mistaken), there were thousands of empty seats at the Molson Centre.

JoeyB

03-05-2013, 02:47 PM

They do a have a few players who were playing with them in league 2. Ashley Williams, Leon Britton and Gary Monk were all with the team in league 2 and Williams and Britton are starters every week. Also the staring RB Angel Rangel joined the team when they were in league 1. If anything, Swansea spent a good 10 years building a team and philosophy to get where they are now. If TFC spent that long most people on this board would commit suicide. Swansea are a great example of taking slow and doing it right by making decisions for the long term.

On a squad of 30 they have 5 players left from 4 years ago. Thanks for proving my point.

OgtheDim

03-05-2013, 02:52 PM

Look at Swansea. They don't have the same core of players now than they did when they were in League Two. 5 year plans aren't that important....

You are equating players with a plan? They had a plan. Still do.

As for North America being different, I disagree.

Example #1:

I spent a large part of my youth following OHL. Every team had a 3 year plan. Changed when the Hunter brothers took over London. They had a 5 year plan to create something self perpetuating.

Example #2:

Every single expansion team ever.

Example #3:

Blue Jays last 3 years.

Apart from that discussion, you seem to be indicating that you can put any player with similar skills into a team, get enough of them, and it will succeed. I think TFC has pretty much proven over and over again that isn't necessarily so.

JoeyB

03-05-2013, 02:56 PM

Their attendance figures were misleading becasue of the games they held at Olympic stadium. Joey Saputo had to make a public plea for greater fan support last season and ended up offering a 15% discount to SSHs. In their inaugral season that was successful?!

As for the Habs, when they went through a brief dry spell about a decade ago (3 years without playoffs if I'm not mistaken), there were thousands of empty seats at the Molson Centre.

They outdrew us regardless of the stadium they played in. LOL. I deal in reality. The Habs attendance since 1926. You're dealing in myths fed to by leafs fans.

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=6929

JoeyB

03-05-2013, 03:06 PM

You are equating players with a plan? They had a plan. Still do.

As for North America being different, I disagree.

Example #1:

I spent a large part of my youth following OHL. Every team had a 3 year plan. Changed when the Hunter brothers took over London. They had a 5 year plan to create something self perpetuating.

Example #2:

Every single expansion team ever.

Example #3:

Blue Jays last 3 years.

Apart from that discussion, you seem to be indicating that you can put any player with similar skills into a team, get enough of them, and it will succeed. I think TFC has pretty much proven over and over again that isn't necessarily so.

TFC has only signed players like Robert Earnshaw and other EPL wash-outs. I'll say it, Danny Dichio was one of them. Now if the Impact signed players of a Bernardo Corradi calibre all the time, they'd be dead in the water. Nesta ain't that. Di Vio ain't that.

And the OHL is held by age. It's all about scouting. It's a semi-pro loop at best. The Jays? They've taken their game up through trades and spending cash on free agents. How many of the starting 9, were drafted by the Jays? It's nice romantic concept that supporters like to fall for. A Bill Shanks era plan. Win the hearts through holding hands and singing terrace songs together. Players have mobility. It's about using players for 2-3 year stints. Keeping the scouting important. And that is why TFC has sucked. It's scouting is terrible. TERRIBLE.

Look at the LA Galaxy roster in 2010 and now. It's changed. It's life. It's reality. I want results. I don't care if a player has bought a home in the city. Manchester United uses players and then sends them packing. They don't allow players to use them. Too many players have used TFC for yucks.

It's needs to change.

JoeyB

03-05-2013, 03:08 PM

This was MLS 1.0 thinking.

Looking at the best teams in MLS in last few years, RSL, Seattle, LA, SKC, they build rosters to last 3+ yrs.

You make it sound like finding quality players who can contribute right away for right salary is simple.

No it's called networking and scouting. It's that simple. TFC has always been a joke in those areas. Maybe now with the new management that will change....it has to...

ManUtd4ever

03-05-2013, 03:09 PM

They outdrew us regardless of the stadium they played in. LOL. I deal in reality. The Habs attendance since 1926. You're dealing in myths fed to by leafs fans.

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=6929

What I mentioned is reality, LOL. Look it up.

Yohan

03-05-2013, 03:13 PM

No it's called networking and scouting. It's that simple. TFC has always been a joke in those areas. Maybe now with the new management that will change....it has to...
right. you just called the GMs and managers of 4 best MLS teams idiots. lol

there is a reason why teams want players to play together as long as possible. it builds team chemistry. makes teams more efficient. and you never know, even with the best of scouting network, the player you get might never work out for you. Hell, this happens even to the best teams like Man U. and in MLS, the price of not getting the right player is high, due to cap issues, esp if you sign a player on a high wage.

for every great player signed like Robbie Keane, there are flops like Mista. And it happens to every team esp in MLS

LA Galaxy. Best team in MLS since 2009. There's a reason for this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_Cup_2009
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_Cup_2012

OgtheDim

03-05-2013, 03:27 PM

OHL - if you think its all about scouting, you obviously have no clue as to how the league really runs.

Jays - plan last 3 years was slow but steady. Alex Anthopolous only blew it up this year because he saw an opening that required a different vision. Happens in that league. Not in MLS.

Got any answer for the points about Expansion team plan and your own Swansea example?

Or are you just a crusader with one idea?

Greatest Ripoff

03-05-2013, 03:41 PM

On a squad of 30 they have 5 players left from 4 years ago. Thanks for proving my point.

Did you even read my post at all? Fuck you are dense. Swansea's sucess have been from a long slow building process. Can you understand that?

Also, they have more than 5 players. Those were the only ones I listed.

mowe

03-05-2013, 04:38 PM

I agree with JoeyB to an extent and I think the other people are missing the point a little bit.

There aren't two distinct ways to build a team: win now (get best players regardless of age) and build for the future (focus on youth development). Montreal isn't in the former category and TFC isn't in the latter. The teams that are successful for extended periods of time, especially in MLS, do both. I think TFC fans have gotten too used to the blow-it-up-and-start-over method of team building, and think that's what other teams have to do too.

Look at RSL, they had Olave and Espindola as key veteran pieces but had Schuler and Gil ready to step in and won't miss a beat this season. LA brings in someone like Keane while still developing Villareal and Zardes. Nesta and Di Vaio are certainly not long-term solutions, but Montreal has Ouimette and Wenger learning from those vets in the meantime. And let's not forget one of their most important players, Felipe, is only 22. Rebuilding doesn't mean tearing it down and starting over. You are constantly rebuilding your team. When Nesta retires Montreal will (ideally) already have a young player ready to take over and if not then they can always sign another vet. It's all about gradually evolving your team depending on your needs.

There's a reason Payne brought in Cesar and Califf despite stating a focus on youth development. Being dead last means you need a talent infusion -regardless of how old they are. TFC was at a point where it desperately needed some proven commodities to serve as a base to build around. The MLS is a unique league where it's easy to be competitive in the short term. TFC doesn't have to be terrible for 2 years which will then pay off in year 3. You can try to win games in the short term while still setting yourself up for the future. I agree that having a core together for a long time is crucial for success. But what use is that core if they aren't winning any games? Getting killed every game and finishing last doesn't tell you anything.

The transition from Preki to Winter to Mariner ravaged this team and left them with very little to build around. That's why signings like Earnshaw and Russel and Califf and Cesar were needed, despite their age. You need to at least hit the baseline of being a competitive team before you can figure out what it takes to be good.

JoeyB

03-05-2013, 10:05 PM

What I mentioned is reality, LOL. Look it up.

I did and I provided a link to back up what I said. Where is your proof?

JoeyB

03-05-2013, 10:12 PM

Did you even read my post at all? Fuck you are dense. Swansea's sucess have been from a long slow building process. Can you understand that?

Also, they have more than 5 players. Those were the only ones I listed.

Since the Mods are going to allow for insults...you're a idiot. A moron and a MLSE Kool aid drinker. Swansea has had three coaches in almost as many years, had dozens of new players. The only thing that has remained the same is that they win. The only thing TFC has done that is consistent is that it loses and keeps bringing in shit players and even crappier managers. The key difference between the two has been player selection and hiring coaches with skills.

It's not rocket science or even grade 10 Ricky. As they say, the shit apple doesn't drop far from the shit tree. You must be Mo's son.

JoeyB

03-05-2013, 10:15 PM

right. you just called the GMs and managers of 4 best MLS teams idiots. lol

there is a reason why teams want players to play together as long as possible. it builds team chemistry. makes teams more efficient. and you never know, even with the best of scouting network, the player you get might never work out for you. Hell, this happens even to the best teams like Man U. and in MLS, the price of not getting the right player is high, due to cap issues, esp if you sign a player on a high wage.

for every great player signed like Robbie Keane, there are flops like Mista. And it happens to every team esp in MLS

LA Galaxy. Best team in MLS since 2009. There's a reason for this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_Cup_2009
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_Cup_2012

Mista never played for LA. You should have named a bad LA import. That's the difference TFC has had terrible imports up until now. LA generally has great ones.

Yohan

03-05-2013, 10:21 PM

Mista never played for LA. You should have named a bad LA import. That's the difference TFC has had terrible imports up until now. LA generally has great ones.
Hong Myong Bo
Abel Xavier
Christian Wilhelmnson
Celestine Babayaro

I suppose you can add Juan Pablo Angel to this list too.

Galaxy gets it right more often than not, but they aren't invincible

OgtheDim

03-05-2013, 11:46 PM

...Swansea has had three coaches in almost as many years, had dozens of new players. The only thing that has remained the same is that they win...

No.

You are extremely mistaken.

The approach to how they play has stayed the same.

The back room staff has stayed the same.

The scouting systems has stayed the same.

The approach to marketing has stayed the same.

The community approach has stayed the same.

Like, do some basic research before you go off like that. After the League cup, commentator after commentator said the same thing. Swansea change managers but the whole system does not change.

You wanted to give out an example of a team that has not followed a long term plan; and, absurdly, you choose the one team that has followed a long term plan more then any other in English league football.

If you wonder why people are not taking you seriously, well..........

Greatest Ripoff

03-06-2013, 12:45 AM

Since the Mods are going to allow for insults...you're a idiot. A moron and a MLSE Kool aid drinker. Swansea has had three coaches in almost as many years, had dozens of new players.

the only thing you have proven is you don't know anything about Swansea and I highly doubt you even knew they existed before last year. 3 coaches in 3 years? Please get your facts straight. I am sure you can go find a list on the internet that shows you are clueless.

Greatest Ripoff

03-06-2013, 12:47 AM

You wanted to give out an example of a team that has not followed a long term plan; and, absurdly, you choose the one team that has followed a long term plan more then any other in English league football.

Exactly!!! Swansea didn't just show up in the premiership overnight or by changing direction and staff every year. FFS there is a core of starting players who have been with the team since they were almost out of the football league.

This guy can call us any names he wants but the proof is in his posts about Swansea. He is truly clueless.

Greatest Ripoff

03-06-2013, 12:51 AM

A moron and a MLSE Kool aid drinker.

Also to be clear (because you really need stuff to be pointed out to you), no where have I defended MLSE. In fact they have done a completely shit job so far. My problem is that you are spouting off clueless made up facts about Swansea to back up some nonsensical argument.

Auzzy

03-06-2013, 01:12 AM

LOL at questioning Yohan's knowledge of MLS players... :D

JoeyB

03-06-2013, 08:57 AM

Exactly!!! Swansea didn't just show up in the premiership overnight or by changing direction and staff every year. FFS there is a core of starting players who have been with the team since they were almost out of the football league.

This guy can call us any names he wants but the proof is in his posts about Swansea. He is truly clueless.

New Head Coach: Laudrup 2012. Gone when?
New Assistant Coach: Mortgem Wieghorst- started in 2012.

Their key players are were not around in 2008 or even in 2010.

Coaches since 2009: Roberto Martinez, Brendan Rodgers, Laudrup Sorry 3 coaches in 4 years -and with Laudrup probably leaving for a bigger club, 4 coaches in 5 years. Again-- the success this year is due to the Spanish players they brought in. It has nothing to do with the second team coach being around since 2006. Swansea has changed. And good for them.

I did call you a name, after you started it. You can dish it out, sadly you can't take it. Typical. :facepalm:

Anyway Montreal does a good job of making connections and getting access to good players. TFC has always done a terrible job. Hopefully that will change. And only a fool keeps throwing out 5 year plans that show no results and then says "we need a new 5 year plan"

Maybe the problem is not planning for now.

JoeyB

03-06-2013, 09:00 AM

Hong Myong Bo
Abel Xavier
Christian Wilhelmnson
Celestine Babayaro

I suppose you can add Juan Pablo Angel to this list too.

Galaxy gets it right more often than not, but they aren't invincible

Fair enough. But let's face it. These team win based on players they bring in and not of those they develop. It is a risk, but unlike other NA sports no one is being signed to 9 year contracts. You're insane signing anyone to a longer contract than 18 months in the MLS.

Fort York Redcoat

03-07-2013, 10:41 AM

Typical cool aid drinker. Sports means winning now and not having a continuously changing 5 year plan to win at some point. When Di Vaio and the gang leaves, he'll bring in a new bunch that will be competitive.

Did you even read my post at all? Fuck you are dense. Swansea's sucess have been from a long slow building process. Can you understand that?

Also, they have more than 5 players. Those were the only ones I listed.

Gents let's keep the discussion civil, please. Attack POV not the other users.

Thanks.