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View Full Version : Approve of Payne's first draft for TFC?



Oldtimer
01-17-2013, 04:02 PM
Do you think he came off well?

$400-$560k in allocation (estimated)
Kyle Bekker
Emery Welshman

razor787
01-17-2013, 04:05 PM
If we got 20% cap relief like someone had posted in the other thread, than yeah I think we did excellent. Two great young local canadian prospects, and a bunch of cash to pay down other contracts. Sounds like a great deal, and it gives Payne a bit of room to play around before the season.

TFC_Allez
01-17-2013, 04:09 PM
I'd say so. Gave a couple of Canadian kids a good home in what was considered to be a weak draft, plus brought in quite a bit the allocation money... Sounds like a pretty successful day for KP.

Now all he has to do is somehow get out of Hassli's contract, then use all that allocation money for a couple of solid discovery signings...and we'll be in decent shape.

tfcleeds
01-17-2013, 04:11 PM
Yep, no complaints from me.

Canary10
01-17-2013, 04:16 PM
I think it was a good day, but I hope there is a plan for that allocation money. We're still exceedingly thin in the midfield - need to get some wide players and I'll feel we're in much better shape. All in all I feel good about it.

The Professor
01-17-2013, 04:17 PM
More than satisfied.
Now lets see if TFC can play as well as Payne's team played that draft.

Reg_Sims
01-17-2013, 04:17 PM
If the numbers are correct, to save 20% of cap space and still get two players he wanted is fantastic.
Hopefully both players can be useful this year, and the money be allocated smartly...

Still hope Toronto can grab a forward in the supplemental Draft...
Ashton Bennett (Coastal Carolina) (http://www.mlssoccer.com/players/ashton-bennett) – 5'9 167 Pounds
Will Bates (Virginia) (http://www.mlssoccer.com/players/will-bates) - 6'0 185 Pounds

Joe Kool
01-17-2013, 04:17 PM
I say yes...but hopefully will look even better if we can utilize that allocation money well. Here's hoping...

Walms
01-17-2013, 04:18 PM
We got Bekker (the guy we had our eyes on), Picked up another Canadian, and 20% lift off cap....Yea, Payne did GOOD!

razor787
01-17-2013, 04:20 PM
What is the difference between the Superdraft and Supplemental draft? Are the top players in this one going to be better than the lower players of the Superdraft, or just the leftovers?

zorsofstesab
01-17-2013, 04:22 PM
Regardless what you think would you have had any confidence that Mariner and COCKrane pulling off the trades that Payne did today? I say he did a good job today.

Dv23
01-17-2013, 04:24 PM
Exceedingly happy about the draft. Granted, we've usually had okay pick-ups (Edu, Silva, etc), but this year blows them all away, I think. Bekker and Welshmen both seem to be very happy to be in Toronto, and I think that they will both be able to get some solid minutes this year. The allocation money... Wow, just wow. If we can make one or two big signings with them, that would be very nice.

Alonso
01-17-2013, 04:25 PM
Leftovers...


But still some decent ones according to the MLS Superdraft panel that hosted the event.

yellowfellow
01-17-2013, 04:26 PM
Mariner would have called it a day after pick #3.

sdcfan18
01-17-2013, 04:31 PM
I'm really happy with the way things turned out. I originally was really high on Farrel, but after seeing how things turned out, I'm happy with the end result. I've read that we now have about 750k to play with and the possibility of a DP spot if Hassli moves. Lots of potential and a very exciting time around these parts.

gdg_9
01-17-2013, 04:32 PM
Payne did VERY well.

Got the players he wanted, and a TON of Allocation $$$

If we cap it off by getting Bennett (who also has Canadian Residency) with the first pick of the Supplemental Draft, it will be even better!

Marc"2L"
01-17-2013, 04:41 PM
I approve of his ability to bring people back to the message boards.
The bigger pick up might be that some of us care again.

ensco
01-17-2013, 04:52 PM
Where does the $560K estimate for the total allocation received today come from?

Alonso
01-17-2013, 04:55 PM
Where does the $560K estimate for the total allocation received today come from?


A quote from Payne saying that he has cleared 20% off the cap...

ensco
01-17-2013, 04:58 PM
A quote from Payne saying that he has cleared 20% off the cap...

OK thanks.

Most 22 year old NCAA kids aren't excited to come to Toronto, which decreases the odds of those picks working out.

But the kids he picked will be thrilled.

Seems smart to me.

Ask in a year though, really. Need to see what he does next. I remember when Dunivant and Marshall got dumped for allocation, then the allocation dollars got wasted.

notthesun
01-17-2013, 05:04 PM
Rollins is saying on Twitter that there's no way Payne got 560k in allocation and I'm inclined to agree. That seems way too large, don't you think?

"There is no way in hell TFC got $560k in allocation @redpatchboys. He was likely talking about where his cap position is overall, not that he got 20% off today. $560k is an absurdly large allocation figure." - @24thminute (https://twitter.com/24thminute)

The trade rumour with Colorado getting our #1 pick had a kicker of 100k in allocation. Even if Payne managed to get 100k in allocation with his three trades, that's still only 300k. I don't see why teams would give up in excess of 100k to us if that was the price Colorado agreed to to get the #1 pick in the draft. 560k is massive, I mean shit, I hope it's true, but I doubt it.

Anyways, I'm very pleased with Payne today. Great draft overall. Now he has to prove he can put this allocation to good use and fill out our roster.

mowe
01-17-2013, 05:06 PM
We shouldn't read too much into exact allocation numbers. Just know that we have flexibility now to add to the roster.

This draft was Exhibit A of why you need to have a MLS-savvy guy at the helm. Payne worked the system to maximize return on assets. Fantastic job.

Can't wait to see who we sign now.

reggie
01-17-2013, 05:07 PM
interesting stuff from payne today...he also said we can sign a dp type player with this extra allo,and that he is looking south not east for these players or player.

Ivy
01-17-2013, 05:10 PM
Mayyybeeeee MLS secretly matched any allocation that TFC managed to acquire. I mean, we are the new LAG and NYRB after all...

:)

WestStandGeoff
01-17-2013, 05:17 PM
It would be interesting if one of the 3 people who voted no could bother to explain what they think went wrong...

reggie
01-17-2013, 05:28 PM
im sure rollins voted no...

OgtheDim
01-17-2013, 05:34 PM
Rollins is reading in here it seems...

:seeya:

Gazza
01-17-2013, 05:43 PM
I voted meh because there is no real way to tell how the two Canadian boys will do. I temper my expectations when it comes to the mls drafts. Kudos to him for collecting a great deal of allocation money.

Yohan
01-17-2013, 05:45 PM
Kevin Payne:

"We actually got the two players we really wanted and we got a bunch of money, so we're pretty pleased about that," Payne said. "We love the fact that they're both from the greater Toronto area. They both grew up cheering for this team, the crest means something to them before they even put the shirt on, and that's important to us."

Got two players that fills a need in TFC roster. A creative CM who can also play wing in a pinch. A striker with pace to complement slow strikers. Plus a bunch of allocation.
Love the fact that Kevin Payne is so far true to his word that he's building a team that would be proud to wear the shirt. And who wouldn't be more proud to wear the shirt than a bunch of local lads?

Greatest Ripoff
01-17-2013, 06:05 PM
Rollins is saying on Twitter that there's no way Payne got 560k in allocation and I'm inclined to agree. That seems way too large, don't you think?

"There is no way in hell TFC got $560k in allocation @redpatchboys. He was likely talking about where his cap position is overall, not that he got 20% off today. $560k is an absurdly large allocation figure." - @24thminute (https://twitter.com/24thminute)

The trade rumour with Colorado getting our #1 pick had a kicker of 100k in allocation. Even if Payne managed to get 100k in allocation with his three trades, that's still only 300k. I don't see why teams would give up in excess of 100k to us if that was the price Colorado agreed to to get the #1 pick in the draft. 560k is massive, I mean shit, I hope it's true, but I doubt it.

Anyways, I'm very pleased with Payne today. Great draft overall. Now he has to prove he can put this allocation to good use and fill out our roster.

Wow Rollins trying to take Payne down a bit, that came out of no where. I'd be much inclined to buy into what Rollins posted if it wasn't him who posted it. I don't think he has had a positive thing to say about Payne yet.

Richard
01-17-2013, 06:06 PM
I approve of his ability to bring people back to the message boards.
The bigger pick up might be that some of us care again.

I am glad as well. These boards seemed to have died for a period of time.

Oldtimer
01-17-2013, 06:25 PM
Payne also said he doubled his allocation cash, so Duane Rollins is just wrong (as usual) if he thinks it's 20% of the free cap space. That would means he got a ridiculously small amount (under $100k).

That hardly counts as a whack of allocation cash.

Payne also said he doubled his allocation cash. Since TFC got a minimum of $220K in allocation for missing the playoffs, and probably got over $220k for the CCL, the amount involved had to be substantial.

However Duane loved Mariner, so nothing Payne does will be right to him.

Regardless of the exact amount involved, Payne did a great job.

ag futbol
01-17-2013, 06:28 PM
Ask in a year though, really. Need to see what he does next. I remember when Dunivant and Marshall got dumped for allocation, then the allocation dollars got wasted.
Yes Mo Johnston was really an idiot savant. He'd trade an asset that was worth $1.00 for $1.25 in allocation and then spend that $1.25 something that was worth $0.50. But give him some credit, as much as I hated the guy and his player valuations were awful, he was way ahead of the curve in terms of knowing the ins-and-outs of MLS rules.

10/10 on this draft day for me. I'll take the dollars over anything that was on the board and Bekker strikes me as someone who will contribute right away.

Edit: I doubt we got 500k in money back, but at minimum I believe we got at least 225k as a minor allocation is something like 75k and that's the smallest unit that can be traded.

SKB
01-17-2013, 06:31 PM
It's great to finally have a president of operations who knows what he is doing. Brilliant job by Payne today. The one thing I found hilarious is the commentators from MLS who were live at the draft said they could not see how TFC could be successful at the draft today because the coach was not there. This is Payne's job not the coaches. I have come to the conclusion that sports reporters are all lemmings and the all run off the cliff together on the same story line.

ag futbol
01-17-2013, 06:46 PM
It's great to finally have a president of operations who knows what he is doing. Brilliant job by Payne today. The one thing I found hilarious is the commentators from MLS who were live at the draft said they could not see how TFC could be successful at the draft today because the coach was not there. This is Payne's job not the coaches. I have come to the conclusion that sports reporters are all lemmings and the all run off the cliff together on the same story line.
Yeah, it's really frustrating putting up with coverage of this league sometimes. Missing details like the type of setup we are running here, honestly Ryan Nelsen being at the draft is not all that important.

[NBF]
01-17-2013, 07:26 PM
Payne, manuevered the draft like a vet.

It shows his experience when he's able to create allocation money and still focus on the future of the club. The contracts of Hassli, Frings, and Koevermans are handcuffing the team and that money will come in handy for the second part of the season when the transfer window opens, because lets face it, TFC is stuck with the 3 DP contracts until the start of the season.

The saving grace going forward is that Hassli, Frings and Koevermans are on their last year of their contracts.

Oldtimer
01-17-2013, 07:31 PM
A quote by Payne on the TFC website says (his exact words) that TFC increased thei salary cap by 20%. I think that's pretty clear, Duane Rollins.

reggie
01-17-2013, 07:36 PM
i stopped reading that dude stuff a long time ago,i guess he misses his inside contact PM...did we sign NESTA yet?

Mr. Bigby
01-17-2013, 07:53 PM
Kristian Jack quotes KP on his blog: “We don’t talk about amounts but we have increased what we had by 75%, a big chunk of allocation money now that we can use to make ourselves better. Money is important, we have a bigger salary cap now than what we had when we started. We have some big contracts that I inherited and we have to accommodate so this gives us a better opportunity to build a team around those.This was a really fun exercise today, we were in a great position, in the catbird’s seat.” That seems to support a fairly substantial number.

SirBobSaget
01-17-2013, 08:00 PM
A quote by Payne on the TFC website says (his exact words) that TFC increased thei salary cap by 20%. I think that's pretty clear, Duane Rollins.

from a real journalist's article: A diary from Indianapolis (http://4-2-3-1.com/2013/01/17/a-diary-from-indianapolis-the-day-canada-took-over-the-mls-superdraft/)


"On how much allocation money they received in their trades: “We don’t talk about amounts but we have increased what we had by 75%, a big chunk of allocation money now that we can use to make ourselves better. Money is important, we have a bigger salary cap now than what we had when we started. We have some big contracts that I inherited and we have to accommodate so this gives us a better opportunity to build a team around those.This was a really fun exercise today, we were in a great position, in the catbird’s seat.”


They likely had something like 500k, so 75% more is almost 400k. So now have something in the neighborhood of 900k

Marc"2L"
01-17-2013, 08:05 PM
It'd be closer to 560k if it was even that much, there's no way we have close to a 40% increase over the cap.

19Barrett19
01-17-2013, 08:14 PM
Anyone who voted no is high on really strong dope this is the way a franchise should be run +++++ for me. Excellent job KP!

[NBF]
01-17-2013, 08:17 PM
from a real journalist's article: A diary from Indianapolis (http://4-2-3-1.com/2013/01/17/a-diary-from-indianapolis-the-day-canada-took-over-the-mls-superdraft/)


"On how much allocation money they received in their trades: “We don’t talk about amounts but we have increased what we had by 75%, a big chunk of allocation money now that we can use to make ourselves better. Money is important, we have a bigger salary cap now than what we had when we started. We have some big contracts that I inherited and we have to accommodate so this gives us a better opportunity to build a team around those.This was a really fun exercise today, we were in a great position, in the catbird’s seat.”


They likely had something like 500k, so 75% more is almost 400k. So now have something in the neighborhood of 900k

Yep, Im glad someone knows what they're doing.

Stress
01-17-2013, 08:22 PM
After watching the combine highlights on youtube, I had to vote yes. Both players looked good and I like the skill sets they bring to the team. Hopefully they work out.

I'd also like to see us pick up Bennet in the supplemental draft. I thought he showed pretty well in the highlights too. Got robbed a few times and also had some nice through balls.

razor787
01-17-2013, 08:39 PM
Somebody mentioned this before, but nobody posted a link to it.

New York has 1st overall pick in the supplemental draft, not us.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/superdraft/2013/supplemental-draft

Stress
01-17-2013, 08:53 PM
Somebody mentioned this before, but nobody posted a link to it.

New York has 1st overall pick in the supplemental draft, not us.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/superdraft/2013/supplemental-draft

Well there goes Bennet.

manitou22
01-17-2013, 09:00 PM
Time will tell how far the team has been pushed forward by what happened today. If someone between #3 and #16 develops into a star and Welshman doesn't pan out there will be plenty of lamenting about what could have been. But in terms of calculation, creativity and sheer guts I think KP really distinguished himself. Very much approve.

Auzzy
01-17-2013, 09:02 PM
Time will tell how far the team has been pushed forward by what happened today. If someone between #3 and #16 develops into a star and Welshman doesn't pan out there will be plenty of lamenting about what could have been. But in terms of calculation, creativity and sheer guts I think KP really distinguished himself. Very much approve.

Well, in that comparison you also have to include whatever the extra allocation money gets us.

Couchy81
01-17-2013, 09:36 PM
Mariner, Cochrane and Anselmi voted no.

So glad they aren't running the show now.

T-boy
01-17-2013, 09:50 PM
What I like about Payne so far, is that he's quietly getting on with the job of setting up the squad without great fanfare or bells and whistles. He'e just getting on with it. He's not like some of the others (Mariner, even Winter, Mojo) who, as they say, "empty vessels make the most noise". Payne is slowly building the squad with good depth, a mix of experience and youth. At this point I'm quietly confident that we can move a few places upwards in 2013. While Winter impressed with his bravado about his fancy system, Payne isn't overpromising much, or being flashy, he's just slowly putting the pieces together. I do reserve a little bit of skepticism, of course, as "we've seen all this before" - but still, I'm impressed with today's work by Payne, and the other pieces he's put together (including Califf and Cesar).

jazzy
01-17-2013, 10:20 PM
What I like about Payne so far, is that he's quietly getting on with the job of setting up the squad without great fanfare or bells and whistles. He'e just getting on with it. He's not like some of the others (Mariner, even Winter, Mojo) who, as they say, "empty vessels make the most noise". Payne is slowly building the squad with good depth, a mix of experience and youth. At this point I'm quietly confident that we can move a few places upwards in 2013. While Winter impressed with his bravado about his fancy system, Payne isn't overpromising much, or being flashy, he's just slowly putting the pieces together. I do reserve a little bit of skepticism, of course, as "we've seen all this before" - but still, I'm impressed with today's work by Payne, and the other pieces he's put together (including Califf and Cesar).

agreed,...and still no real certainty on our formation strategy, which I don't mind at all as it should never be etched in stone. ( I am skeptical on Califf's contibution) though...surprise me.

T-boy
01-17-2013, 10:28 PM
agreed,...and still no real certainty on our formation strategy, which I don't mind at all as it should never be etched in stone. ( I am skeptical on Califf's contibution) though...surprise me.

I know what you're saying about califf. But - last season at CB depth we had the option of a crocked Cann or Williams, or a useless Harden. Now at depth CB we have Califf - who is much better than all those 3 from last season!

West220Side
01-17-2013, 10:40 PM
In my opinion, pardon me, but Kevin Payne made this draft his bitch. Kevin Payne was basically controlling the entire draft, walking around making trades, talking to other managers/head coaches/presidents trying to get the allocation he wanted which was his goal. Walked away with a good ammount of money which he can put into a few MLS level players, or 'one spectacular player' and also walked away with two young canadian boys from the Toronto area who know each other.

Just proves that if you were on of the fans who went into this draft trusting in Payne, you did right. If you didn't trust Payne you were a bit iffy if he would do the right thing, now you know to get behind him and help our boys out in the stands this year. They'll need a 12th man.

TFC07
01-17-2013, 11:05 PM
Well there goes Bennet.There's a rumour that Bennet is looking to play soccer overseas instead in MLS. So that might explain why he wasn't drafted today. Anyway, Payne got tons of allocation money to sign very good players and plus two talented local kids. I am very happy of Payne's performance. A job well done.

Soccerpro
01-17-2013, 11:09 PM
Kevin Payne stated that is was important for him to have players that respected the badge and wanted to be here. That makes the selections of the two Ontario boys that much more important. There is no point in bringing players in who are unsure/don't want to be at TFC. I really liked what Payne did today. Unlike our previous management, he seems to get it, he just gets it.

He still has a ton of work to do transform this team into one that can compete for the playoffs, but I like the moves he's made so far minus signing Justin Braun for over 100K.

Detroit_TFC
01-17-2013, 11:11 PM
It's a successful draft in that we are coming out of it with more options than when we started. Now we need to see what's done with that allocation $.

zeelaw
01-17-2013, 11:15 PM
As a CMNT fan, I'm not sure what to think of both of those 2 going to Toronto.

flatpicker
01-17-2013, 11:25 PM
Anyone who voted no is high on really strong dope this is the way a franchise should be run +++++ for me. Excellent job KP!


"no" votes were by drunkards who couldn't keep their hands steady enough to hit the "yes" button.

Oldtimer
01-17-2013, 11:33 PM
As a CMNT fan, I'm not sure what to think of both of those 2 going to Toronto.

They are not ready for the big 3 foreign leagues, so having them develop near home is a good option at this time.

About Payne:

I think Payne bossed this draft. It sure is a nice change to have someone who knows what they are doing.

ArmenJBX
01-17-2013, 11:48 PM
Payne did boss this draft, sure, but to be honest, it's easy to make these moves when you have the 1 and 3 to work with.

Managers in this league have pulled jewels from the depths of the second round and end up looking like geniuses - others have chosen first or second and gotten bums.

So, yes, on this day, we can say that Kevin Payne did his job well, but in the end of the day, the only thing that matters is production:

Kyle Bekker needs to produce. Emery Welshman too. It's the only barometer that counts.

Oldtimer
01-17-2013, 11:59 PM
^ You say it's easy when you have picks 1 and 3. If so, then why haven't we ever seen this quality of decision making before? It only looks easy because KP does it so well.

Cashcleaner
01-18-2013, 12:01 AM
In my opinion, pardon me, but Kevin Payne made this draft his bitch. Kevin Payne was basically controlling the entire draft, walking around making trades, talking to other managers/head coaches/presidents trying to get the allocation he wanted which was his goal. Walked away with a good amount of money which he can put into a few MLS level players, or 'one spectacular player' and also walked away with two young Canadian boys from the Toronto area who know each other.

Just proves that if you were on of the fans who went into this draft trusting in Payne, you did right. If you didn't trust Payne you were a bit iffy if he would do the right thing, now you know to get behind him and help our boys out in the stands this year. They'll need a 12th man.

Couldn't agree more. Payne acted like a proper President/GM during the draft and I really like the direction he went in by drafting two local boys and grabbing some easy cash. I think we did quite well.

mowe
01-18-2013, 12:28 AM
Payne did boss this draft, sure, but to be honest, it's easy to make these moves when you have the 1 and 3 to work with.

I wouldn't call it easy. Easy would be to take Farrell and Bekker and call it a day. It takes smarts to trade a pick 3 times and collect allocation while still getting your guy. But you're right that he was dealt a great hand by walking into the first pick. But don't forget he was also the one who traded for the 3rd. Another smart trade that also netted us allocation.

Yohan
01-18-2013, 02:22 AM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/superdraft/2013/news/article/2013/01/17/mls-superdraft-toronto-land-both-their-targets-and-more

Payne explains how his game worked out in the draft

Marc"2L"
01-18-2013, 03:22 AM
Haha, yeah I approve
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An20eXvL6As

Laurignano
01-18-2013, 07:06 AM
Don't wat to jinx Bekker, but I think he'll be the best long-term pick from the draft. I know him from Oakville (played pick up with him a few times) and maybe I'm a bit biased but, I think hes got the potential to be a real contributor for TFC and eventually the Canadian men national team. Really happy he is going to get to play close to home and develop his game even further.

Damien
01-18-2013, 08:08 AM
Payne seemed to do his homework on the draft.
I'm shocked we came away with the top 2 Canadians AND roughly $400k-$500k of cap space.

Oldtimer
01-18-2013, 08:43 AM
Haha, yeah I approve
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An20eXvL6As

The precision on that FK shows a player with really good potential. Spinning in at the post 2/3 up makes it virtual impossible to stop.

Belfast_Boy
01-18-2013, 08:56 AM
Great and interesting moves. Glad we have mr Payne on our side
Still a lot of holes to fill.
Lets spend some of that money now.

ArmenJBX
01-18-2013, 08:56 AM
All I'm saying is, Toronto FC didn't do anything miraculous here: they took the two Canadian players and maneuvered around Vancouver and Montreal, took a risk going down to 16, and had it pay off for a player who, unfortunately, hasn't had the best college career.

And we haven't seen this kind of wheeling and dealing, sure, but no other team has turned a first pick into a 16th either. Most teams would just take the top pick and then trade that player for his value, but in any case, Toronto can say they did well only if Bekker and Welshman produce. Otherwise, this draft will be remembered as the one where Toronto FC gave up Farrell or Zimmerman or Zavaleta, etc.

Fort York Redcoat
01-18-2013, 09:21 AM
All I'm saying is, Toronto FC didn't do anything miraculous here: they took the two Canadian players and maneuvered around Vancouver and Montreal, took a risk going down to 16, and had it pay off for a player who, unfortunately, hasn't had the best college career.

And we haven't seen this kind of wheeling and dealing, sure, but no other team has turned a first pick into a 16th either. Most teams would just take the top pick and then trade that player for his value, but in any case, Toronto can say they did well only if Bekker and Welshman produce. Otherwise, this draft will be remembered as the one where Toronto FC gave up Farrell or Zimmerman or Zavaleta, etc.

Tell me one draft that we COULDN'T say we gave someone up? What miracle were you looking for?

Wooster_TFC
01-18-2013, 09:21 AM
Why pick a CB when we already have two that are younger, more experienced, and "better"? And yes, Zavaleta appears to be lining up as a CB.

With no playing time, Armen, any of the three guys you mention's development would stall, and they would go nowhere fast. KP even said that they rated both Henry and Boss higher than Farrell, who was the undisputed top CB in the draft (Zimmerman might have been if he had made the combine, but then there's the question of why he slid so much).

If we picked up even 400k in allocation (two majors for 1 to 4, and 4 to 10, then a minor for 10 to 16), plus the two guys they claim to have wanted (KP said they would have taken Welshman at 4) then how can you not say the draft was successful?

You definitely have to look at it in retrospect in a few years, and see how things turned out, but if they were going to pick those two anyways (which was the claim, but might be bravado), then you got something for "nothing" essentially.

The drafting of Bekker and Welshman can be analyzed in a few years, and the use of the allocation as well. But, for the use of allocation at least, those are separate things to look at.

Wooster_TFC
01-18-2013, 09:22 AM
Tell me one draft that we COULDN'T say we gave someone up? What miracle were you looking for?

I think he's trying to temper expectations based on the fact that pretty much the same percentage of people were crowing when we got Cronin, OBW, and Frei a few years back.

Mr. Bigby
01-18-2013, 09:42 AM
KP would be the first to say (and in fact he did) that the best you can say about the draft is that you got who you wanted. The question of how good your choices are will only be settled over the next couple of years. Having said that, he got who he wanted, gave his marketing department a leg up, and scored allocation money big time. All in all, I don't think you could have asked for better.

Canary10
01-18-2013, 09:42 AM
All I'm saying is, Toronto FC didn't do anything miraculous here: they took the two Canadian players and maneuvered around Vancouver and Montreal, took a risk going down to 16, and had it pay off for a player who, unfortunately, hasn't had the best college career.

And we haven't seen this kind of wheeling and dealing, sure, but no other team has turned a first pick into a 16th either. Most teams would just take the top pick and then trade that player for his value, but in any case, Toronto can say they did well only if Bekker and Welshman produce. Otherwise, this draft will be remembered as the one where Toronto FC gave up Farrell or Zimmerman or Zavaleta, etc.

I haven't seen anything to suggest Zavaleta and Farrell are anything but internet hype. We'll know 3 or 4 years down the line, but when we have a lot of immediate gaps it's hard to not like Payne's increasing our capacity to sign players now rather than hope these guys pan out a few years from now.

I just realized we don't have that first round supplemental pick (and Bennet) because of the Quincy Amerikwa trade......

bigredone
01-18-2013, 09:45 AM
I guess we have earned that leaf on our jersey. Move over Vancouver, we are the C.C.

I am excited about this year and the near future of our squad. What a turn around, feels great!!!!

barticusz
01-18-2013, 11:02 AM
If Payne can turn this team around while doing with Canadian players I think a lot of us will be impressed. As for the draft, I'm ok with it. Needed the allocation money for more players and we seem to have gotten at least one decent player who could start right away.

Wooster_TFC
01-18-2013, 11:23 AM
Even if Farrell, Zimmerman, or Zavaleta end up being the next Omar Gonzalez, they would never have developed into that with TFC, as they would have been sitting at least 5th on the depth chart in terms of CBs, due to the fact that TFC rate both Henry and Boss higher than any of those three, and O'Dea and Califf are going to be our starters likely.

It's sad that the only way you get game time in MLS is to play on the first team. I'm hopeful that this agreement with USL comes through and we either get a proper reserve league, or solid loan options.

pekduck
01-18-2013, 11:25 AM
Kevin Payne killed this draft!

Draft as always, is getting prospective players who in theory have potentials to become starters or at least depth players. Their value is often realized in 2-3 years horizon (outliers at both ends of course). Therefore we can't really quantify the immediate impact. Not only has Kevin acquired two local boys who, at the best case both turn to starters in 2-3 years, won't use up international spots, but also amassed immediate and quantifiable asset in allocation money. He has addressed the immediate financial turmoil legacy from past regimes and adding younger future prospects to the program.

How he uses the allocation is to be evaluated at a different time. How Bekkar and Welshman pan out, is to be evaluated at a different time.

How did Kevin perform in this draft, he owned it!

Ajax TFC
01-18-2013, 11:28 AM
I guess we have earned that leaf on our jersey. Move over Vancouver, we are the C.C.
Anyone else notice when one of the MLS analysts said that Vancouver would certainly win the Canadian Championship? Pretty bold statement to make IMO

ArmenJBX
01-18-2013, 11:34 AM
Well we definitely wasted pick number one. Trading down for Welshman in exchange for allocation will only work if we get at least two high quality players. Otherwise, well, I think we will be looking back at this draft and wishing for more or better.

Mr. Bigby
01-18-2013, 11:38 AM
Well we definitely wasted pick number one. Trading down for Welshman in exchange for allocation will only work if we get at least two high quality players. Otherwise, well, I think we will be looking back at this draft and wishing for more or better.

:deadhorse:

bigredone
01-18-2013, 11:41 AM
Anyone else notice when one of the MLS analysts said that Vancouver would certainly win the Canadian Championship? Pretty bold statement to make IMO

They should just hand it to us now. Save them the heart ache of playing through it.

ag futbol
01-18-2013, 11:43 AM
Even if Farrell, Zimmerman, or Zavaleta end up being the next Omar Gonzalez, they would never have developed into that with TFC, as they would have been sitting at least 5th on the depth chart in terms of CBs, due to the fact that TFC rate both Henry and Boss higher than any of those three, and O'Dea and Califf are going to be our starters likely.

It's sad that the only way you get game time in MLS is to play on the first team. I'm hopeful that this agreement with USL comes through and we either get a proper reserve league, or solid loan options.
Agreed, as far as I can see that valuation is pretty straight forward. We have two players who have both been tested at the pro level and show lots of promise. The comparisons are a couple of guys who stood out at a lower level who haven't proven anything outside of it.

It's worth noting that DC United basically leads the league in terms of getting loans for their young players. So hopefully that's a trend that can continue here because we probably have a few talents in the academy who aren't MLS ready but shouldn't waste their time in the NCAA.

mowe
01-18-2013, 11:45 AM
Think of it this way, since Payne said they would've taken Bekker 1st if they had to. TFC traded Johnson and Kocic for Bendik, Welshman, and allocation from 4 different teams. Hard to argue that's not a good trade.

backbeat
01-18-2013, 11:46 AM
Well we definitely wasted pick number one. Trading down for Welshman in exchange for allocation will only work if we get at least two high quality players. Otherwise, well, I think we will be looking back at this draft and wishing for more or better.


not sure what draft you were watching but PK was impressive to say the least. we came out with a lot more flexibility dollar-wise and got what we wanted player-wise. As Payne said he would have picked Bekker with the #1 pick anyway, and yes i do believe him.

ArmenJBX
01-18-2013, 11:54 AM
I watched the same draft you did. I watched us give our first pick for the 16th. I also saw us pick up allocation money that may or may not work out. I will reserve judgement on this draft based on the production of Bekker on the field, and the quality of players we purchase with allocation money. Otherwise, Toronto FC wasted their first pick. If the players we sign with this allocation are gone by the end of the year, we wasted the pick, end of story.

In the end, draft picks work out more often than foreign signings, Toronto FC is taking a risk by focusing on the latter instead of the former. If it works, we look like geniuses. If it doesn't, we look foolish.

ag futbol
01-18-2013, 12:00 PM
^ You say it's easy when you have picks 1 and 3. If so, then why haven't we ever seen this quality of decision making before? It only looks easy because KP does it so well.
Yeah I find it kind of funny people are describing this draft as low-risk compared to the market but let's look back at the last three years of draft history. How many guys on those lists would you give up 3 allocations for?

If it's like 2010 the answer is zero
2011 or 2012 then maybe a handful

Throw in the adjustment problems of foreign kids Payne identified and HGP status sapping the talent from the draft, it's not as low-risk to bank on a draft pick as people are describing. FFS Portland dumped their draft pick to us and their coach probably understands the level of talent more than anybody else. What does that tell you?

KGH
01-18-2013, 12:09 PM
I watched the same draft you did. I watched us give our first pick for the 16th. I also saw us pick up allocation money that may or may not work out. I will reserve judgement on this draft based on the production of Bekker on the field, and the quality of players we purchase with allocation money. Otherwise, Toronto FC wasted their first pick. If the players we sign with this allocation are gone by the end of the year, we wasted the pick, end of story.

In the end, draft picks work out more often than foreign signings, Toronto FC is taking a risk by focusing on the latter instead of the former. If it works, we look like geniuses. If it doesn't, we look foolish.

We basically traded Farrell for ~$500k + Welshman. It'll come down to who has the better career and what we use the $500k for.

jabbronies
01-18-2013, 12:09 PM
We got two Canadians, one of whom we tried to sign before but couldn't. I guess a good sign is that Winter was the one who was interested in the player, not Mariner. So the guy must be good, right?

We also got fake money. Really depends on who we get with that fake money.
So at the end of the draft, we have a bunch of question marks.

I wouldn't call it a success, but it's not a failure either. it is what it is.

Canary10
01-18-2013, 12:17 PM
I watched the same draft you did. I watched us give our first pick for the 16th. I also saw us pick up allocation money that may or may not work out. I will reserve judgement on this draft based on the production of Bekker on the field, and the quality of players we purchase with allocation money. Otherwise, Toronto FC wasted their first pick. If the players we sign with this allocation are gone by the end of the year, we wasted the pick, end of story.

In the end, draft picks work out more often than foreign signings, Toronto FC is taking a risk by focusing on the latter instead of the former. If it works, we look like geniuses. If it doesn't, we look foolish.

I think you're putting way too much stock in the quality of players in the draft. You're assuming Farrell is top player, which the jury is still out on. None of us have seen these guys play up close. You might be watching games on TV or highlight clips, but that tells us very little. We don't get to see what they do off the ball, for example, which is about half the game. I'm just not prepared to say Farrell is a star player in the making. In fact, based on other number one picks, I'd say it's highly unlikely.

I do agree that allocation is only as good as the players signed with it. If we don't parlay that into some quality signings, I would have to agree the draft may not have been a good one. But at least we're in a position to do that, which we weren't two days ago.

Greatest Ripoff
01-18-2013, 12:19 PM
I also saw us pick up allocation money that may or may not work out.

Much like the first pick overall which, "may or may not work out."

So how can you be so sure that one will work out while you have no confidence in the other?

Dave67
01-18-2013, 12:20 PM
I'm not even attempting to understand how money flows in MLS. But Merritt Paulson owner of Portland tweeted this

Merritt Paulson ‏@MerrittPaulson (https://twitter.com/MerrittPaulson) if I was a fan, allocation deals would drive me nuts. but banking allocation $ is key for 2014/15 roster flex.

So I'm going to say that KP had a good draft.

ArmenJBX
01-18-2013, 12:25 PM
Payne is paying cash cab.
He has won a lot of money.
Rhe host asks him if he wants to keep the money or go double or nothing.
Payne picks the latter.
Now we wait.

This is where we are right now. Payne went for the cash. Now we have to sit and wait to see if the money he does have will pan out or if it will be wasted on players who don't work. Like I said, I will judge Payne based on the players he acquires with this cash and with Bekker's performance. If the players he gets don't work, and Farrell or Zimmerman or Zavaleta or Johnson work out, then we wasted that money, no matter how much it was.

In my mind, we have yet to use draft pick number one. We need to buy players first. If they are strong capable starters then I will be extatic. But this draft day isn't over yet!

Canary10
01-18-2013, 12:29 PM
None of the players in that draft will help TFC right now in any of our key needs. I agree he needs to get some players with that money, but it's far more likely he'll get players that will help today. If he went with picks, they'll be players who will help 3 or 4 years from now.

Greatest Ripoff
01-18-2013, 12:37 PM
If the players he gets don't work, and Farrell or Zimmerman or Zavaleta or Johnson work out, then we wasted that money, no matter how much it was.

IF, if, if, the whole draft is crap shoot. Not one player is lock. How well has the number 1 and 2 picks worked out for the past 3 years?

And if Toronto did so bad then why are all the media outlets in the US saying Toronto did the best in the draft?

ArmenJBX
01-18-2013, 12:42 PM
IF, if, if, the whole draft is crap shoot. Not one player is lock. How well has the number 1 and 2 picks worked out for the past 3 years?

And if Toronto did so bad then why are all the media outlets in the US saying Toronto did the best in the draft?

I'm just comparing the quality of players who have gone through the draft vs. players who successfully come in from abroad.

i don't mean to shit on anyone's parade but, yes, sorry, the first five picks are more often strong players than not, and there are way more foreign players who come in and can't establish themselves than there are players who can. So if we had pick one and three back in 2009, took Zakuani and Gonzalez, we'd be in a better place than if we stocked up on allocation and signed Miguel Aceval and Javier Martina instead.

But, if instead sign players like Mauro Rosales or Matteo Ferrari, then we win the draft. It depends on who we get.

I reserve my judgement on the players we sign. Only then will I congratulate the decision. Yes, Toronto FC made the boldest moves, but it could very well blow up in their face and I refuse to ignore that possibility based only on the precedent that foreign players have a higher failure rate than draft picks, especially high ones.

As for media, well, they acknowledge that Toronto FC did well but those same writers may look back in a year from now and mock Toronto FC for wasting allocation money and a draft pick on players that ended up leaving or not working out. Believe me, if there's a team that would get rid of players, it's Toronto FC, and with Hassli wanting out, I fear this draft pick may end up being the same kind of situation.

Nuvinho
01-18-2013, 12:49 PM
If TFC use that allocation money wisely this year and lock up a few guys for 2 or more years that are quality, then the draft is a success. We needed allocation money this year to get players, who may not be available next year, when we do have cap room.

Get 1 or 2 DP players this year - reduce their contract down by allocation. Then when the 3 DPs come off the books next year, these guys take over their spots.

The allocation is only good for 1 year, so Payne must have a few guys lined up that will help the club longterm.

Yohan
01-18-2013, 12:51 PM
If TFC use that allocation money wisely this year and lock up a few guys for 2 or more years that are quality, then the draft is a success. We needed allocation money this year to get players, who may not be available next year, when we do have cap room.

Get 1 or 2 DP players this year - reduce their contract down by allocation. Then when the 3 DPs come off the books next year, these guys take over their spots.

The allocation is only good for 1 year, so Payne must have a few guys lined up that will help the club longterm.
i'm pretty sure allocation money don't expire. at least, not for few years

Nuvinho
01-18-2013, 12:53 PM
We should have tonnes of it then......since we are crap every year and also win the CCL :)

Canary10
01-18-2013, 12:54 PM
I'm just comparing the quality of players who have gone through the draft vs. players who successfully come in from abroad.

i don't mean to shit on anyone's parade but, yes, sorry, the first five picks are more often strong players than not, and there are way more foreign players who come in and can't establish themselves than there are players who can. So if we had pick one and three back in 2009, took Zakuani and Gonzalez, we'd be in a better place than if we stocked up on allocation and signed Miguel Aceval and Javier Martina instead.

But, if instead sign players like Mauro Rosales or Matteo Ferrari, then we win the draft. It depends on who we get.

I reserve my judgement on the players we sign. Only then will I congratulate the decision. Yes, Toronto FC made the boldest moves, but it could very well blow up in their face and I refuse to ignore that possibility based only on the precedent that foreign players have a higher failure rate than draft picks, especially high ones.

As for media, well, they acknowledge that Toronto FC did well but those same writers may look back in a year from now and mock Toronto FC for wasting allocation money and a draft pick on players that ended up leaving or not working out. Believe me, if there's a team that would get rid of players, it's Toronto FC, and with Hassli wanting out, I fear this draft pick may end up being the same kind of situation.

I think that's totally fair.

For me, we have significant holes, especially in the midfield (can anyone tell me who starts on the left? is Lambe our only wide right?) and possibly, as you say, up front if Hassli walks. No one in the draft will walk in and legitimately start in those positions we have no one to fill at the moment. I'd rather put my hope in signings, otherwise this year might make last year look good.

pdogg
01-18-2013, 12:59 PM
If TFC use that allocation money wisely this year and lock up a few guys for 2 or more years that are quality, then the draft is a success. We needed allocation money this year to get players, who may not be available next year, when we do have cap room.

Get 1 or 2 DP players this year - reduce their contract down by allocation. Then when the 3 DPs come off the books next year, these guys take over their spots.

The allocation is only good for 1 year, so Payne must have a few guys lined up that will help the club longterm.

yes, the allocation allows us the ability to get players this year we would normally have had to wait until next year for. The cap room we gain from the expiration of the DP contracts will more than offset any allocation used up and we can continue forward with the core and still add more.

Ultra & Proud
01-18-2013, 01:00 PM
So if we had pick one and three back in 2009, took Zakuani and Gonzalez, we'd be in a better place than if we stocked up on allocation and signed Miguel Aceval and Javier Martina instead.

But in that same draft if we had the 1st and 3rd picks and traded down we could have taken Chris Pontius and George John. Then if we had $500K extra to spend we could have had better on the bench than Gala, Sanyang & Gomez and we probably would have made the playoffs.

Oldtimer
01-18-2013, 01:09 PM
I'm just comparing the quality of players who have gone through the draft vs. players who successfully come in from abroad.


Armen, MLS first picks don't always turn out great. We look at guys like Omar Salgado and Steve Zukuani and think it's a risk-free proposition. But we ignore guys like Steve Shack (who ended up in USL) and Nikolas Besagno (sent to D2, now playing in D4 PDL). So we may regret it, but it's a chance you take to trade the first pick. Payne did a great job of maximizing allocation cash. How he spends it will be key (in his day, Mo Johnston was great at wheeling a dealing, then he would spend it on guys like Andy Welsh which meant the allocation cash was mostly wasted). We didn't need another young defender with our recent defensive signings, so moving down the draft and picking more offensive players while getting cash was a good strategy.

T-boy
01-18-2013, 01:11 PM
I'm just comparing the quality of players who have gone through the draft vs. players who successfully come in from abroad.

i don't mean to shit on anyone's parade but, yes, sorry, the first five picks are more often strong players than not, and there are way more foreign players who come in and can't establish themselves than there are players who can. So if we had pick one and three back in 2009, took Zakuani and Gonzalez, we'd be in a better place than if we stocked up on allocation and signed Miguel Aceval and Javier Martina instead.

But, if instead sign players like Mauro Rosales or Matteo Ferrari, then we win the draft. It depends on who we get.

I reserve my judgement on the players we sign. Only then will I congratulate the decision. Yes, Toronto FC made the boldest moves, but it could very well blow up in their face and I refuse to ignore that possibility based only on the precedent that foreign players have a higher failure rate than draft picks, especially high ones.

As for media, well, they acknowledge that Toronto FC did well but those same writers may look back in a year from now and mock Toronto FC for wasting allocation money and a draft pick on players that ended up leaving or not working out. Believe me, if there's a team that would get rid of players, it's Toronto FC, and with Hassli wanting out, I fear this draft pick may end up being the same kind of situation.

I wouldn't compare the new administration to the old administration. They clearly messed up by signing Aceval and Martina. I trust that Payne will use the allocation money much more wisely!

Also, I know we could have got pick 1. BUT - pick 1 was concensus Farrell - and I don't think we really need ANOTHER CB after signing Califf, Agboss, and Cesar who can also play CB (plus Henry, O'Dea). I don't think we could have done better than Bekker with the first pick, and we got him at number 3 anyways.

It's now up to Payne to go and spend the allocation, so we need to give him time to show who he can find with this new money, before we judge.

TFC John
01-18-2013, 01:32 PM
If Payne's moves don't pan out we can expect to get lots more #1 picks in the years to come. This league is too unpredictable for anyone to say what will happen down the road. All we can do is hold on and try to enjoy the ride. It's going to be bumpy for a while longer.

OgtheDim
01-18-2013, 01:36 PM
Too much NFL and NHL draft type thinking in here.

***

On another note, I'd say VCWC were the favourites for the CC.

Anybody know if Payne has discussed the CCL?

Carts
01-18-2013, 02:12 PM
I think he did really well...

I wish this league would be open with things like allocation money so we wouldn't be speculating...

My philosophy, unless there is a 100% guaranteed superstar to be drafted - always deal the #1 pick, it carries more value that the 'hope'...

bigredone
01-18-2013, 03:52 PM
[QUOTE=OgtheDim;1553172]

On another note, I'd say VCWC were the favourites for the CC.

/QUOTE]

What's the score in the C.C. game -> TFC 5 - VWC 4? Many changes so not sure.

ag futbol
01-18-2013, 03:57 PM
On another note, I'd say VCWC were the favourites for the CC.

It's going to be a very interesting start to the season. We have a middle that has questions about being old / slow and we're going against arguably the fastest team in the league that just picked up two more guys with wheels through the draft.

Should be a pretty immediate test of how well we trained in the pre-season and whether our guys are in game shape.

TFC07
01-18-2013, 04:12 PM
I don't think VCWC is really that good of a team. They don't have a good midfield. Vancouver seems like they're going to be booting the ball down the field and have their speedy strikers chase it. I bet you that's how they're going to play this season. TFC is looking solid in the back, but their attacking players aren't looking great. Scoring goals might be a problem for TFC in the beginning of the season. Hopefully Payne brings in more attacking oriented players before training camp. Montreal isn't a bad team and I wouldn't be surprised if they win CC.

Flipityflu
01-18-2013, 04:19 PM
can't really judge the draft until we see what happens with the allocaton money and how players develop. i'm not against the draft moves, so its certainly an improvement from the recent managerial appointment.

barticusz
01-18-2013, 04:24 PM
Listened to a podcast by soccerbyives.com with a Payne interview. He had mentioned that they definitely will be looking to add more offensive components to the team and have been looking at a couple of players from down south. He says that in the next 1-2 months there will definitely be more things happening to the roster.

So far I'm on board with Payne. I like his candid interviews and the moves that he has made. I dont' expect this team to be a playoff contender this year but I like the direction we're heading in. Getting players that are sound technically is what I love seeing. The fact that they are Canadian is a bonus. I've also heard that Frings is very happy with the Cesar signing, as this will give the team that much more help in the CDM spot.

If Payne can bring in young guys like the rumoured, Alex Lopez and Peralta. And if they're decent players similar to Castillo in FCD I'll be a happy camper.

EastYork
01-18-2013, 05:17 PM
It's simple, in Payne we trust!

ArmenJBX
01-18-2013, 05:19 PM
I wouldn't compare the new administration to the old administration. They clearly messed up by signing Aceval and Martina. I trust that Payne will use the allocation money much more wisely!

Also, I know we could have got pick 1. BUT - pick 1 was concensus Farrell - and I don't think we really need ANOTHER CB after signing Califf, Agboss, and Cesar who can also play CB (plus Henry, O'Dea). I don't think we could have done better than Bekker with the first pick, and we got him at number 3 anyways.

It's now up to Payne to go and spend the allocation, so we need to give him time to show who he can find with this new money, before we judge.

The way I look at it is this - let's put the allocation money aside.

If Toronto FC picked Bekker at 1 and Welshman at 3, would that have been a good day at the draft board?

Not in my books. Not with what was available.

So the result of this draft remains, as I have said, entirely in the hands of whatever players Payne brings in with that allocation money. That's the only thing that matters. Bekker working out is important too. Welshman being good would be a dream come true. However, it always boils down to the two or three players that Payne purchases with the allocation money.

If those players fail, and head home after a year, then Toronto FC will have wasted the day at the draft. This is why I'm not jumping on the "Payne won the draft" side just yet. Performance comes first.

razor787
01-18-2013, 06:04 PM
Let's face the facts. We need starting players. If we drafted Bekker and one of the other high picks, we would have signed two bench players, that would start in 2 years. Instead we drafter Bekker and another prospect to sit on the bench, and we also got money to sign starters.

Yes, those starters might flop, but at least we will know and have extra depth. The draft picks could easily flop as well though, difference is we won't notice for a couple seasons that it was a poor choice.

tfcleeds
01-18-2013, 07:55 PM
The way I look at it is this - let's put the allocation money aside.

If Toronto FC picked Bekker at 1 and Welshman at 3, would that have been a good day at the draft board?

Not in my books. Not with what was available.

So the result of this draft remains, as I have said, entirely in the hands of whatever players Payne brings in with that allocation money. That's the only thing that matters. Bekker working out is important too. Welshman being good would be a dream come true. However, it always boils down to the two or three players that Payne purchases with the allocation money.

If those players fail, and head home after a year, then Toronto FC will have wasted the day at the draft. This is why I'm not jumping on the "Payne won the draft" side just yet. Performance comes first.

But we would have picked Bekker at #1 anyway (if you believe Payne). And since we've already addressed defensive needs before the draft, I'm inclined to believe him.

Question the Welshman pick all you want, but I don't think there's any reason to consider him at this point to be any worse than any of the other top FWs chosen. Bottom line, I think we did pretty well all things considered. Like you said, we'll just have to wait and see.

JayMolly
01-18-2013, 09:08 PM
It's simple, in Payne we trust!

I'm okay with Payne and with all of the changes really looking forward to the start of the season. However, when it comes to "trust" I still have to wait and see. After all, he said he had no interest in Bekker. Now that could be his poker face and holding his cards close to his chest to prevent other teams from picking Bekker or . . . .?

razor787
01-18-2013, 09:17 PM
If he truely had no interest in bekker he would have drafted someone else in that #3 spot. Only 2 players were gone, and neither were targets we need. Obvious that Payne was trying to trick the other clubs into false sense of security.

ensco
01-18-2013, 10:10 PM
Any time poll results come in this lopsided, I wonder.

Armen has a point. It's not like every GM in MLS is an idiot except for our guy. There are a lot of ifs. If any of the guys picked at 1, 4 or 10 become stars, and our guys don't, we may rue the day. We'll see.

tiberius
01-18-2013, 11:10 PM
Payne is paying cash cab.
He has won a lot of money.
Rhe host asks him if he wants to keep the money or go double or nothing.
Payne picks the latter.
Now we wait.

This is where we are right now. Payne went for the cash. Now we have to sit and wait to see if the money he does have will pan out or if it will be wasted on players who don't work. Like I said, I will judge Payne based on the players he acquires with this cash and with Bekker's performance. If the players he gets don't work, and Farrell or Zimmerman or Zavaleta or Johnson work out, then we wasted that money, no matter how much it was.

In my mind, we have yet to use draft pick number one. We need to buy players first. If they are strong capable starters then I will be extatic. But this draft day isn't over yet!

Christ Armen - I can't figure out if you are a Mariner lapdog or a Payne (contrary) pooch!!! Obviously any draft pick is a wait and see proposition. So is how allocation money will be spent in the future... What the hell do you want? Beckham or Henri on a silver platter??? This is so obviously been a great draft for us, that I am speechless!! What do you want? Guarantees on draft picks???? Guarantees on where future allocation will be spent??? Just a little much, I would say... Did some team do better in the last few days???? If so, tell us who the hell who?? How about you give some guarantees on that?? Momma Mia!!

tiberius
01-18-2013, 11:15 PM
Payne did boss this draft, sure, but to be honest, ... - others have chosen first or second and gotten bums.

So, yes, on this day, we can say that Kevin Payne did his job well, but in the end of the day, the only thing that matters is production:

Kyle Bekker needs to produce. Emery Welshman too. It's the only barometer that counts.

Who the eff cares??? Some draft picks work out, some don't... You are totally unrealistic to say they both must produce - what a load of baloney. Mariner is gone, and Cochrane is close behind - get used to it.

tiberius
01-18-2013, 11:22 PM
Any time poll results come in this lopsided, I wonder.

Armen has a point. It's not like every GM in MLS is an idiot except for our guy. There are a lot of ifs. If any of the guys picked at 1, 4 or 10 become stars, and our guys don't, we may rue the day. We'll see.

Agreed Ensco - a lot of ifs and buts - there is bound to be some hindsight regret. That being said - OUR GUY DID GOOD - Let's just enjoy the moment, rather than do this totally second guess crap, before our team hits the field!! It will take a year or two to sort this out, not 24 hours after the draft....

ArmenJBX
01-19-2013, 12:09 AM
Christ Armen - I can't figure out if you are a Mariner lapdog or a Payne (contrary) pooch!!! Obviously any draft pick is a wait and see proposition. So is how allocation money will be spent in the future... What the hell do you want? Beckham or Henri on a silver platter??? This is so obviously been a great draft for us, that I am speechless!! What do you want? Guarantees on draft picks???? Guarantees on where future allocation will be spent??? Just a little much, I would say... Did some team do better in the last few days???? If so, tell us who the hell who?? How about you give some guarantees on that?? Momma Mia!!

When you have drank bitter tea for the last few months, the taste of something sweet is that much sweeter.

People think this draft was great because they need it to be. Yes, Payne did well with what he had, but he also has a larger risk factor than any other squad.

And, frankly, does it only take a few easy trades down a ladder in a SuperDraft where you hold all the best cards to win everyone over? None of this was overly impressive. It's not like we took a second round draft pick, turned it into pick number three overall and added Dax McCarty or something. We moved the highest draft pick, the one everyone wants, downward, and then continued to move down, to draft a player that no one really wanted, at 16.

We're just so used to mediocrity that any semblance of competency is being heralded as salvation.

I don't mean to be the contrarian on this forum or in this thread, but Christ, we have seen everything from the return of the prodigal son, to signing multiple DPs, going through eight coaches, various systems, and the like - it takes results to earn praise.

If Payne turns this allocation into two amazing players, only then will this draft be a success. Otherwise, we took pick one and turned it into pick 16.

Have this moment. Cherish it. But I will not be arsed into repeating myself if, in a year from now, we're complaining that "we could have had _____" instead.

tiberius
01-19-2013, 12:22 AM
When you have drank bitter tea for the last few months, the taste of something sweet is that much sweeter.

People think this draft was great because they need it to be. Yes, Payne did well with what he had, but he also has a larger risk factor than any other squad.

And, frankly, does it only take a few easy trades down a ladder in a SuperDraft where you hold all the best cards to win everyone over? None of this was impressive. We're just so used to mediocrity that any semblance of competency is being heralded as salvation.

I don't mean to be the contrarian on this forum or in this thread, but Christ, we have seen everything from the return of the prodigal son, to signing multiple DPs, going through eight coaches, various systems, and the like - it takes results to earn praise.

If Payne turns this allocation into two amazing players, only then will this draft be a success. Otherwise, we took pick one and turned it into pick 16.

Have this moment. Cherish it. But I will not be arsed into repeating myself if, in a year from now, we're complaining that "we could have had _____" instead.
What might have been is how most drafts go... We have all sucked down the same bitter tea the last few years... If you don't want to give Payne his due, so be it. I am not saying that this draft, nor Payne is the second coming of Christ. Everyone knows a draft like this is pretty well a crap shoot. If you don't like what he has done, tell us what would be better! Who would you have picked if you had picks #1 and #2? See if you can beat Payne... maybe you can, maybe you can't... What would be impressive in your mind? Payne himself admits it is a crap shoot that will take a lot of time to tell??? There is no point being a nervous nelly sitting in the bushes - how would you have done it better?

In the scheme of things, I wish he had already got rid of Cochrane - a much more important milestone than $150K in allocation, given the damage that boyo has done to us in the past...

Section 117
01-19-2013, 12:28 AM
Well we definitely wasted pick number one. Trading down for Welshman in exchange for allocation will only work if we get at least two high quality players. Otherwise, well, I think we will be looking back at this draft and wishing for more or better.

Armen by taking funds Payne has gotten more flexibility to acquire better players with this new windfall of cash. The state of this teams salary cap is top heavy and it is tied up in 5 players and of them the most effective one blew his knee out and we don't know how effective he will be when he comes back. He need the funds to help revamp the roster.

If Payne felt that Bekker was the best fit and most talented player he could have taken him first, but he saw an opportunity to create more assets and still get his guy. For that I applaud Payne. What counts now is how effectively he spends the funds and any other moves he chooses to make to fill out this roster.

There are a lot of rumors floating around and I guess we have to wait and see for the opening kick off before we can judge this draft because outside of the players we drafted we also obtained cap space which will ultimately determine if Payne's first draft is successful or not

Auzzy
01-19-2013, 12:30 AM
Armen -- yes, that's a good point. Let's hear which two picks, or what other strategy, you think would have been better than what we got (incl. picks + allo cash). Let's record that here for posterity. Then we can compare all that, maybe a year from now, maybe even later to really know how all those draft picks pan out.

Because for every other option, there's also a risk, there's also a chance that we would end up saying "shoulda coulda woulda."

(However, even in hindsight, we won't know for sure though how it all panned out, since many details won't be published. Such as the exact allocation amounts, the signing details for new players we might be able to get now, the salary buy-downs that may be possible which make another signing possible that we won't even know is connected -- even the real cap hit of any players we sign -- we will never know any of that for sure. So we will have to guess more or less.)

ArmenJBX
01-19-2013, 12:33 AM
I am not saying that this draft, nor Payne is the second coming of Christ. Everyone knows a draft like this is pretty well a crap shoot. If you don't like what you see, tell us what would be better! Who would you have picked if you had picks #1 and #2? See if you can beat Payne... maybe you can, maybe you can't... What would be impressive in your mind? Payne himself admits it is a crap shoot that will take a lot of time to tell??? There is no point being a nervous nelly sitting in the bushes - how would you have done it better?

I would have done exactly what Payne did.

Like I said, I am not opposed to the results of our draft. I love Kyle Bekker, and I think Emery Welshman could be decent, too, potentially as depth.

And, yes, I know that the draft is a crap shoot. I don't deny that, either.

So, if I was in charge, the moves Payne made are similar to ones I would have made. Perhaps I would have kept pick 10 and used it on Eriq Zavaleta instead but I don't know the internal finances of the organization so I can't comment. It's possible they needed X amount of allocation so they chose to move down to 16. No worries on my end.

The only point I have made, repeatedly now, is that, unlike other teams who picked their players, Toronto FC can go tits up on this deal and be mocked for it later, when no other team would be. If all four of Montreal's picks turn out to be terrible, then "oh well, this is the draft" and life goes on.

But if Bekker isn't MLS quality, Welshman is poor, and the allocation money is wasted, Toronto FC has egg on their face. It's embarrassing. This isn't just a bad pick, oh well, this is a deliberate and intentional dump of the highest commodity awarded to an MLS team each year in exchange for nothing.

I will give Kevin Payne credit for this draft when I see what he does with the allocation money. That has been my point throughout this thread. The players he signs that he has deemed to be better than a first or a fourth or a tenth overall pick will be the foundation for my personal judgement. If he signs players who succeed in this league, then I will concede that Payne did a wonderful job in this years' draft and that he deserves the praise. However, if the players he signs fail, then Payne messed up.

We are complimenting the carpenter for doing a fine job on a table with only two legs and two more waiting on the work bench. Let's see the finished product before we judge him - otherwise, we could take home something rickety and poorly constructed, having convinced ourselves that it's a masterpiece before we've laid a single plate and cup on its surface.

tiberius
01-19-2013, 12:43 AM
...
We are complimenting the carpenter for doing a fine job on a table with only two legs and two more waiting on the work bench. Let's see the finished product before we judge him - otherwise, we could take home something rickety and poorly constructed, having convinced ourselves that it's a masterpiece before we've laid a single plate and cup on its surface.

I guess I am saying that is is two fine looking legs, the tabletop is smooth and level, and we have had a bunch of bloody amateurs in the past that could not even build one leg properly. I get it, we have a long way to go, and nobody should get too excited about the draft, but that said, let us at least enjoy the sunshine while it lasts... I am a supporter of the worst team in the world... allow me a couple of moments of enjoyment...

ArmenJBX
01-19-2013, 12:48 AM
Amen, brother. Amen.

March can't come soon enough :drinking:

leroy
01-19-2013, 08:55 AM
I don't think we could ask for much more from this draft. A+ for Payne.


I'm okay with Payne and with all of the changes really looking forward to the start of the season. However, when it comes to "trust" I still have to wait and see. After all, he said he had no interest in Bekker. Now that could be his poker face and holding his cards close to his chest to prevent other teams from picking Bekker or . . . .?


If he truely had no interest in bekker he would have drafted someone else in that #3 spot. Only 2 players were gone, and neither were targets we need. Obvious that Payne was trying to trick the other clubs into false sense of security.

Razor787 is right, Payne admitted he was being deceitful:

"Ordinarily in life, I tell the truth. But when it comes to this, I don't usually tell the truth. We were really worried that somebody would try move ahead of us and make a deal with (New England or Chivas USA). That was the biggest concern when we moved down to four," Payne told sportsnet.ca on Thursday.
"We wanted to make people think they could relax a little bit and still potentially get (Bekker). ... We wanted to try to protect ourselves, just in case. We weren't being entirely forthcoming and for that I apologize."

jloome
01-19-2013, 11:42 AM
Christ Armen - I can't figure out if you are a Mariner lapdog or a Payne (contrary) pooch!!

Maybe he's neither. Maybe he's open-minded and objective about it, which is usually the healthiest place to be.

TFCRegina
01-19-2013, 11:46 AM
Mehhhhh

Too short at 3 characters, lolz

tiberius
01-19-2013, 12:07 PM
Maybe he's neither. Maybe he's open-minded and objective about it, which is usually the healthiest place to be.
You are correct - it is just my ass-backward way of saying he is somewhere in between... as Armen says, bring on the season so we can start to see some results... hopefully!

jloome
01-19-2013, 04:24 PM
You are correct - it is just my ass-backward way of saying he is somewhere in between... as Armen says, bring on the season so we can start to see some results... hopefully!

Oh, I'm with you. I'm also erring on the side of positivity; just seems like a nice change.

stevielarson
01-19-2013, 07:01 PM
Any time poll results come in this lopsided, I wonder.

Armen has a point. It's not like every GM in MLS is an idiot except for our guy. There are a lot of ifs. If any of the guys picked at 1, 4 or 10 become stars, and our guys don't, we may rue the day. We'll see.

No one is saying the other GMs are idiots, every team is dealing from a different position based on current roster, cap room and draft position. Theoretically every trade we made could be win-win for these reasons. Given how our roster currently is and being fairly close to the cap I believe Payne did a job to fix the gaps that we have and also bring in some players with high ceilings who can help us out in the future. Obviously the signings he is attempting to line up with the allocation money determines the impact this draft has on our squad is season. Drafting talent is such a roll of the dice anyway and rarely plays an impact the first year.

OgtheDim
01-19-2013, 07:23 PM
Well there is also the teams trying to fit players into corporate ideals.

i.e. Chivas and Montreal

Toronto
01-19-2013, 08:01 PM
I wonder if any team ever got better in the MLS via the draft route. It seems much to Ado about Freddy to be honest.

stevielarson
01-19-2013, 09:13 PM
I wonder if any team ever got better in the MLS via the draft route. It seems much to Ado about Freddy to be honest.

This is why the increase in allocation money and how Payne uses it is so important.

Ultra & Proud
01-20-2013, 09:11 AM
I wonder if any team ever got better in the MLS via the draft route. It seems much to Ado about Freddy to be honest.
Take a look at K.C's roster on their MLS site and see where most of their players came from.

nfitz
01-20-2013, 02:02 PM
Armen has a point. It's not like every GM in MLS is an idiot except for our guy. There are a lot of ifs. If any of the guys picked at 1, 4 or 10 become stars, and our guys don't, we may rue the day. We'll see.Could it simply be that those who want the higher draft places are more worried about the short-term, while Payne has made it pretty clear in interviews that he's pretty much written off this coming season or two as rebuilding, and is working on a longer-term plan - he's mentioned a 5-year period in interviews.

T

SweetOwnGoal
01-20-2013, 08:39 PM
Wow Rollins trying to take Payne down a bit, that came out of no where. I'd be much inclined to buy into what Rollins posted if it wasn't him who posted it. I don't think he has had a positive thing to say about Payne yet.I'm not "trying to take Payne down". That 's absurd.Believe what you want but 560k allocation is a crapload. Considering the 100k figure for No 1 was widely reported...I think he did well at the draft...so far. There is still a part to play out - what does he do with the money? I don't think you can judge until then.And I don't vote in your polls. Duane

SweetOwnGoal
01-20-2013, 08:49 PM
A quote by Payne on the TFC website says (his exact words) that TFC increased thei salary cap by 20%. I think that's pretty clear, Duane Rollins.

I rarely read here so if you want to talk crap about me do it on Twitter or email me - duanegrollins at gmail. Also, this idea that I "loved " Mariner and that he was my inside source is batshit insane.

I am scared that TFC hired Mo 2.0. I'm basing that on what people in DC are saying.

Are these people "Mariner lovers" too, or should we maybe wait to see whether he lives up to his own hype before putting the cape on him? http://bigquestionshow.com/2013/01/15/another-insider-speaks-out-about-kevin-paynes-tenure-at-dc-united/

tiberius
01-20-2013, 09:07 PM
I rarely read here so if you want to talk crap about me do it on Twitter or email me - duanegrollins at gmail. Also, this idea that I "loved " Mariner and that he was my inside source is batshit insane.

I am scared that TFC hired Mo 2.0. I'm basing that on what people in DC are saying.

Are these people "Mariner lovers" too, or should we maybe wait to see whether he lives up to his own hype before putting the cape on him? http://bigquestionshow.com/2013/01/15/another-insider-speaks-out-about-kevin-paynes-tenure-at-dc-united/

Mo 2?? You are so full of shit your eyes are brown - what a load of absolute crock - go peddle your fantasies elsewhere. Buy Mariner a drink for me, while you are at it.

tiberius
01-20-2013, 09:14 PM
I rarely read here so if you want to talk crap about me do it on Twitter or email me - duanegrollins at gmail. Also, this idea that I "loved " Mariner and that he was my inside source is batshit insane.

I am scared that TFC hired Mo 2.0. I'm basing that on what people in DC are saying.

Are these people "Mariner lovers" too, or should we maybe wait to see whether he lives up to his own hype before putting the cape on him? http://bigquestionshow.com/2013/01/15/another-insider-speaks-out-about-kevin-paynes-tenure-at-dc-united/

Your last big scoop was that Nesta retired - as if you have any credibility.... Or was it Bas Ent's 3 year contract with TFC, or...

Oldtimer
01-20-2013, 10:07 PM
I rarely read here

Yet your whole posting on your blog was to criticize the RPB site you supposedly never read. Right.

Besides, your criticisms of the RPB is on a public board, therefore it is right to reply on a publicly readable board, not by some Gmail account or easily ignored twitter account... and I'm not going to bring inter-group politics to the U-Sector board. I have to much respect for the leaders there to do that.

and as for your most recent link... Yeah, some people hate Payne. You get that with strong personalities. Me, I loved how DC was run, and wished we could have had a strong leader here.

Mo 2.0?, give me a break.

Greatest Ripoff
01-21-2013, 12:31 AM
I am scared that TFC hired Mo 2.0.

So you can't give Payne two months before writing him off as "mo 2.0" even thought he has 4 championships but you told supporter to be patient and that Mariner the right guy despite the fact that he had a terrible record as head coach? Can't you see why people think you're bias?

ag futbol
01-21-2013, 02:22 AM
So you can't give Payne two months before writing him off as "mo 2.0" even thought he has 4 championships but you told supporter to be patient
This is it right here. Beyond that background noise of people moaning about Kevin Payne's ego and over-controlling nature, is the track record. It's damn impressive, any way you slice it.

Oldtimer
01-21-2013, 03:43 PM
Ives reports that TFC got in the neighbourhood of $200k in allocation money.

He gives them an A+ though.

http://www.soccerbyives.net/2013/01/sbis-2013-mls-draft-team-by-team-grades.html

Interesting... he gave TFC the highest grade of any club.

If it's true about the $200k, (shouldn't that be $210 to be more exact?) and Ives is much more reliable than some other sources, then there are two conclusions:

(1) Payne did mean 20% of his free cap space/allocation cash
(2) TFC had a lot more free cap space/allocation space than anyone knew... a million bucks.

The question is, where did this million buck allocation cash come from? From the published salaries we knew that there was almost no cap room, so it had to be allocation cash.

CCL $280k allocation
Missing playoffs $280k allocation

Did the MLS competition committee give TFC some of that "magic allocation" that can be given for whatever reason? If so, they are treating this year as a reboot of the franchise.

So if that's the case:

280k
280k
560k magic allocation?
210k from the draft
-----
1,330k

Is that correct? TFC must be swimming in cash. You could pick up a DP-quality player and pay them entirely with allocation cash. Then next year, when the 3 current DPs are off the books, sign them to a DP contract. Or you could pick up a few high-end MLS-level players.

Update:
But these numbers don't seem to work.... didn't Payne say he increased his cash by 50%? If that's true somehow there is free cap room of $560k, as opposed to magic cash. Kocic wasn't paid that much.

KGH
01-21-2013, 03:58 PM
Interesting... he gave TFC the highest grade of any club.

If it's true about the $200k, (shouldn't that be $210 to be more exact?) and Ives is much more reliable than some other sources, then there are two conclusions:

(1) Payne did mean 20% of his free cap space/allocation cash
(2) TFC had a lot more free cap space/allocation space than anyone knew... a million bucks.

The question is, where did this million buck allocation cash come from? From the published salaries we knew that there was almost no cap room, so it had to be allocation cash.

CCL $280k allocation
Missing playoffs $280k allocation

Did the MLS competition committee give TFC some of that "magic allocation" that can be given for whatever reason? If so, they are treating this year as a reboot of the franchise.

So if that's the case:

280k
280k
560k magic allocation?
210k from the draft
-----
1,330k

Is that correct? TFC must be swimming in cash. You could pick up a DP-quality player and pay them entirely with allocation cash. Then next year, when the 3 current DPs are off the books, sign them to a DP contract. Or you could pick up a few high-end MLS-level players.

But these numbers don't seem to work.... hmmmm.

You can also use allocation to buy down a DP contract. Depending on how the Hassli thing works out the following scenario could play out:

1) Buy down hassli's contract so it no longer counts as a DP - $790k-500k = salary cap hit of $290k
2) Bring in new DP and buy down the impact if that persons cap hit this year $350-175 = 175k cap hit

Total allocation spent = $675k.
increase to the cap =$115k

Or if the player was a young DP (Lopez) the total thing only costs you the allocation $ to drop hassli's contract out of DP status.

Ajax TFC
01-21-2013, 04:05 PM
trying to figure out cap room and allocation amounts is an exercise in futility.

Yohan
01-21-2013, 04:30 PM
trying to figure out cap room and allocation amounts is an exercise in futility.
TFC picked up allocation money from Ryan Johnson/Kocic trade to Portland, though I can't imagine that's more than 100k.

And yeah, while I can imagine TFC had some leftover allocation money stuffed under the bed or something, trying to figure out allocation money is more secretive than KGB

Ivy
01-21-2013, 04:43 PM
You can also use allocation to buy down a DP contract. Depending on how the Hassli thing works out the following scenario could play out:

1) Buy down hassli's contract so it no longer counts as a DP - $790k-500k = salary cap hit of $290k
2) Bring in new DP and buy down the impact if that persons cap hit this year $350-175 = 175k cap hit

Total allocation spent = $675k.
increase to the cap =$115k

Or if the player was a young DP (Lopez) the total thing only costs you the allocation $ to drop hassli's contract out of DP status.
Personally, I would never buy out a player's contract if they tell the media that they want out. If TFC isn't planning to get a DP replacement, Hassli should sit on the bench and watch from the sidelines. Buying him out would be surrendering to his whine.

KGH
01-21-2013, 04:57 PM
Personally, I would never buy out a player's contract if they tell the media that they want out. If TFC isn't planning to get a DP replacement, Hassli should sit on the bench and watch from the sidelines. Buying him out would be surrendering to his whine.

I think you mis-understood what I was saying. You can use allocation dollars to bring down the impact of that persons salary vs. the cap. in Hassli's case what I was suggesting is if he were to stay we could use allocation to drop his salary down. If you applied $500k of allocation then the impact of his salary towards the cap would only be ~$290k. He would no longer be considered a DP and we'd get the DP slot back.

Oldtimer
01-21-2013, 08:20 PM
Mo 2?? You are so full of shit your eyes are brown - what a load of absolute crock - go peddle your fantasies elsewhere. Buy Mariner a drink for me, while you are at it. Please refrain from comments like "full of shit". Personal attacks are against the board rules, and apply for everyone, even those who attack us. However, pointing out Duane's past record (e.g. Bas Ent) is within the bounds.

redsourpatchkid
01-22-2013, 05:08 PM
After adding bennett today(assuming he comes), im very impressed with the assests payne aquired. As a casual fan before i would have whined about all the trading down, but if we can add a servicable to above average player or two with the space opened up, along with these (imo) great young prospects .i Dont think any1 would be able to argue against thisbeing tfc best draft to date

Ultra & Proud
01-22-2013, 05:13 PM
After adding bennett today(assuming he comes), im very impressed with the assests payne aquired. As a casual fan before i would have whined about all the trading down, but if we can add a servicable to above average player or two with the space opened up, along with these (imo) great young prospects .i Dont think any1 would be able to argue against thisbeing tfc best draft to date

Looks good on paper but we'll have to wait and see. The allocation $$$ is great regardless of anything but the talent will not be decided for a while. The Cronin/White/Frei draft looked like a world beater too and it ended up being so-so when looking back at whom some of the other team's selected/who we passed on.

redsourpatchkid
01-22-2013, 05:55 PM
Ultra & Proud i think the frei draft is a fair point, and theres always gonna be players drafted lower who suprise, i reallly think bennet is gonna be like plata in that regard if he sticks around. To me though, what we end up making of the allocation money will be what potentially put this years draft moves over the top

AdamAM
01-22-2013, 07:48 PM
Anyone else think that the reason everyones amount of allocation is kept secret is so that MLS can always "lend a hand" to their marquee franchises (LA, NY and maybe us now?) ??

Gazza_55
01-23-2013, 02:01 AM
Anyone else think that the reason everyones amount of allocation is kept secret is so that MLS can always "lend a hand" to their marquee franchises (LA, NY and maybe us now?) ??

Does this tinfoil stuff have to come up in every thread?

Curious how has MLS EVER 'lent a hand' to Red Bull New York? I mean really!!

ag futbol
01-23-2013, 01:01 PM
Does this tinfoil stuff have to come up in every thread?

Curious how has MLS EVER 'lent a hand' to Red Bull New York? I mean really!!
I'll take the pragmatic view of it. Does MLS lend a favor to teams on occasion? of course. Is it tinfoil hat "we want big markets to succeed at the expense of everyone else" not at all. It's simply a matter of the owners in these markets asking for preferential treatment and getting it. The view that every club is equal is a bit laughable. Owners haven't invested equal amounts or committed equal resources, why should they all be the same? 49% of the LA Galaxy is probably 10x as valuable as 49% of the Columbus crew. Why should HSG have the same say as AEG? NER is another good exapmle, they have held payroll at less than the league minimum for multiple years even though salaries are covered through MLS and not the individual clubs. Why? Well the speculation is Bob Kraft simply wants to minimize his losses and receives a rebate from the league. It's preferential treatment, but not in the direction you might expect.

We've been on the receiving end of a few preferential favors ourselves. Stephan Frei didn't graduate generation adidas for an extra year, but by every definition of the rules he should have been going onto the cap. In 2009 pre-JDG we had a non-dp payroll that was approximately million dollars more than every other team in the league. Sure we transfered Mo Edu, but the league caps the amount of transfer fees you can spend on new players are a horridly low amount. So again, how did we end up with such a large payroll and allegedly spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in transfer fees for Pablo Vitti? If our teams weren't previously managed by a bunch of idiots, we would have been extremely happy about all this inequality.

SweetOwnGoal
01-29-2013, 11:49 AM
Please refrain from comments like "full of shit". Personal attacks are against the board rules, and apply for everyone, even those who attack us. However, pointing out Duane's past record (e.g. Bas Ent) is within the bounds.

I. Do. Not. Attack. You.

I disagree with you. Strongly. I think a lot of the views on here are damaging, actually, but you're entitled to them.

Unless you're referring to a single Tweet that I sent almost two years ago, apologized for, have been forgiven for by the vast majority of your leadership, and that wasn't actually attacking you, but simply questioning an individual situation.

And, are the stories I've broken correctly also fair game? Because there are a hell of a lot more of them then those where I was wrong. Those who dislike me tend to have selective memory, however.

For instance, do you recall what I said about the idea that TFC got $500k+ in allocation.

And I have never used Paul Mariner as a unnamed source. Ever. Not even once. But, y'all are going to believe what you want.

Again -- @24thminute or duanegrollins at gmail for those that want to actually be upfront when they question my integrity. I only come here about once a week.

SweetOwnGoal
01-29-2013, 12:01 PM
So you can't give Payne two months before writing him off as "mo 2.0" even thought he has 4 championships but you told supporter to be patient and that Mariner the right guy despite the fact that he had a terrible record as head coach? Can't you see why people think you're bias?

If I'm showing a double standard by pointing out that all of Payne's success came in the so-called MLS 1.0 era (and most of it in the 90s, and arguably were the design of Arena) then many of Mariner's critics who said the same about his success at New England were doing the same, no?

And please point out where I ever said Mariner was "the right man." Hint: I never did. What I said is that he was never given the chance to demonstrate it one way or the other because he was coaching a team that was built by Aron Winter.

I liked Winter as a person. I strongly believe he was profoundly incompetent.

Many, many, many people in DC say that Payne is a meddling and egotistical manager that was nowhere near qualified to be making technical decisions. That makes me nervous.

In general (I'm aware that it's not literally universal, I'm talking about trends) the thinking on this board is strongly influenced by cults of personality -- It was *all* Mariner's fault; Payne is *all* knowing.

Things are more nuanced than that.

Fort York Redcoat
01-29-2013, 12:20 PM
If I'm showing a double standard by pointing out that all of Payne's success came in the so-called MLS 1.0 era (and most of it in the 90s, and arguably were the design of Arena) then many of Mariner's critics who said the same about his success at New England were doing the same, no?

And please point out where I ever said Mariner was "the right man." Hint: I never did. What I said is that he was never given the chance to demonstrate it one way or the other because he was coaching a team that was built by Aron Winter.

I liked Winter as a person. I strongly believe he was profoundly incompetent.

Many, many, many people in DC say that Payne is a meddling and egotistical manager that was nowhere near qualified to be making technical decisions. That makes me nervous.

In general (I'm aware that it's not literally universal, I'm talking about trends) the thinking on this board is strongly influenced by cults of personality -- It was *all* Mariner's fault; Payne is *all* knowing.

Things are more nuanced than that.

I agree with you in that things are not as all encompassing as some wish it to be for simplicity's sake.

All knowing, All Mariner's fault, Winter having complete control. There's more to all those stories/situations. As people find out more I like to hear their accounts. I don't see why people expect such definitive answers. We've never had the complete story on any aspect of this team.

ag futbol
01-29-2013, 12:49 PM
And please point out where I ever said Mariner was "the right man." Hint: I never did. What I said is that he was never given the chance to demonstrate it one way or the other because he was coaching a team that was built by Aron Winter.

Hands up if you didn't see that one coming.

Oldtimer
01-29-2013, 06:16 PM
I. Do. Not. Attack. You.



My post wasn't directed at you. I'm not sure why you are directing your comments to me. I was explaining what is and what is outside of bounds to a poster who is not yourself.

tiberius
01-29-2013, 07:01 PM
...
In general (I'm aware that it's not literally universal, I'm talking about trends) the thinking on this board is strongly influenced by cults of personality -- It was *all* Mariner's fault; Payne is *all* knowing.

Things are more nuanced than that.

Yup SOG suggesting Payne is "Mo 2.0" is definitely nuanced, no doubt about that...

What is nuanced is the fact that in a very short time Mariner showed us a lot that was very "Mo 2.0"-like and most folk recognized it and would have none of it. Blaming others, repeatedly throwing almost every team member under the bus, greatest finisher of the modern era, god awful starting line-ups, dumping players with some quality on the ball, bad stories coming from many former players AND COACH. Wow - quite a little list the real Mo 2.0 developed in a very short while - If Mariner had been allowed to complete another season, I believe the team would have been done like a dinner - probably for good. I am glad you brought up Mo 2.0, because that is exactly why Mariner had to go.

There are so many positives so far (compared to Mariner), that I fail to see how trying to tar Payne right now makes any sense what-so-ever. A ton remains to unfold, and I suspect most of us will be wait-and-see for quite sometime, but give credit where credit is due - if there is a Mo 2.0, Mariner is the one with a TFC track record that fits. I have seen no Mo at all from Payne - I have seen good messaging, strong positive cultural values, very good superdraft, fast development of management with same core values. I would note that this is all in two months - Mariner was here TWO YEARS! What did Mariner (the real Mo 2.0) contribute???

jabbronies
01-29-2013, 07:53 PM
To be honest I'm not sure why anyone would believe anything said from someone employed by TFC.

For me, the jury is out on Payne. He hasn't gotten my stamp of approval on anything he does until I start seeing results, and not just in the standings...I need to see growth from players, the academy, the manager! I don't want to see a Toronto Maple Leafs barn sale of the future to get results in the table this year.

As people have already mentioned in this thread, most of what he's done was in MLS 1.0 - although how much influence he had on the current DC United team in MLS 2.0 is something I'd like to know.

Oldtimer
01-29-2013, 09:15 PM
As people have already mentioned in this thread, most of what he's done was in MLS 1.0 - although how much influence he had on the current DC United team in MLS 2.0 is something I'd like to know.

He hired the current coach, who made DC 2nd in the East last year. The blog saying that Payne's success was only in MLS 1.0 was another example of selective use of statistics.

tiberius
01-29-2013, 09:40 PM
I. Do. Not. Attack. You.

....

For instance, do you recall what I said about the idea that TFC got $500k+ in allocation.



Geez SOG - OT's estimate of allocation might have been off, but that is all it was - an estimate - nobody cares if it was $150 or $550 - it is a hell of a lot better than the previous Bozo's have done - why are you so negative? We got rid of a really negative guy (Mariner) and have brought in someone with some integrity and soul - God, it is a breath of fresh air, no matter if we win six games or not. Try to appreciate the things that go right!

jabbronies
01-29-2013, 09:55 PM
He hired the current coach, who made DC 2nd in the East last year. The blog saying that Payne's success was only in MLS 1.0 was another example of selective use of statistics.

People from DC have also said he was being shut out by current club personnel, which is why he left was inclined to leave a 3rd place club for a last place club. Essentially people had stopped listening to him.
So again - how much of this 2nd place DC team was his doing.

Auzzy
01-29-2013, 10:22 PM
I agree that the jury is still out on Payne, and there are some conflicting opinions from DC. I like what I've seen so far on a number of fronts -- although we still need to see a few solid signings, as far as possible under the cap. Better put that allo cash to good use.

So we've heard some negative opinions from DC in the linked articles, and some comments above. However, consider this: we've had a couple of guys come here to work with Payne, that had close previous experience with him: Ryan Nelsen and Pat Onstad. I believe Fran O’Leary also knows Payne well. None of those guys were in dire straits looking for a job; none of them were forced to come here. That tells me there are at least two sides to the DC story. Apparently some people didn't like Payne, didn't get along with him. Apparently some other guys got along well enough with Payne to follow him to Toronto.

Oldtimer
01-29-2013, 11:16 PM
People from DC have also said he was being shut out by current club personnel, which is why he left was inclined to leave a 3rd place club for a last place club. Essentially people had stopped listening to him.
So again - how much of this 2nd place DC team was his doing.

It was the new ownership... nothing to do with the people who worked under him.

PopePouri
01-29-2013, 11:30 PM
People from DC have also said he was being shut out by current club personnel, which is why he left was inclined to leave a 3rd place club for a last place club. Essentially people had stopped listening to him.
So again - how much of this 2nd place DC team was his doing.

If people stopped listening to him, I'm sure he would have shown them the door cause he was kinda their boss.

Cashcleaner
01-30-2013, 03:02 AM
I. Do. Not. Attack. You.

I disagree with you. Strongly. I think a lot of the views on here are damaging, actually, but you're entitled to them.

Unless you're referring to a single Tweet that I sent almost two years ago, apologized for, have been forgiven for by the vast majority of your leadership, and that wasn't actually attacking you, but simply questioning an individual situation.

And, are the stories I've broken correctly also fair game? Because there are a hell of a lot more of them then those where I was wrong. Those who dislike me tend to have selective memory, however.

For instance, do you recall what I said about the idea that TFC got $500k+ in allocation.

And I have never used Paul Mariner as a unnamed source. Ever. Not even once. But, y'all are going to believe what you want.

Again -- @24thminute or duanegrollins at gmail for those that want to actually be upfront when they question my integrity. I only come here about once a week.

Cool story, bro. Oldtimer was actually talking to Tiberius, though. Soooooo.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnjfuKVCHFw

Abou Sky
01-30-2013, 08:28 AM
If I'm showing a double standard by pointing out that all of Payne's success came in the so-called MLS 1.0 era (and most of it in the 90s, and arguably were the design of Arena) then many of Mariner's critics who said the same about his success at New England were doing the same, no?

And please point out where I ever said Mariner was "the right man." Hint: I never did. What I said is that he was never given the chance to demonstrate it one way or the other because he was coaching a team that was built by Aron Winter.

I liked Winter as a person. I strongly believe he was profoundly incompetent.

Many, many, many people in DC say that Payne is a meddling and egotistical manager that was nowhere near qualified to be making technical decisions. That makes me nervous.

In general (I'm aware that it's not literally universal, I'm talking about trends) the thinking on this board is strongly influenced by cults of personality -- It was *all* Mariner's fault; Payne is *all* knowing.

Things are more nuanced than that.

IMHO it isn't that Payne is 'all knowing' but as I perceive it, Anselmi is now truly gone.

For better or worse he has my support for 3 years, if in 2015 we aren't a top team I would boot him. If we are, I would love to see him here for 20 years.

This year to me is a write off, a 'building' year. I will cheer no matter what this year, happy to have a team and a great place to go.

Shakes McQueen
02-01-2013, 10:20 PM
In general (I'm aware that it's not literally universal, I'm talking about trends) the thinking on this board is strongly influenced by cults of personality -- It was *all* Mariner's fault; Payne is *all* knowing.

The convenient thing about rhetorically claiming there's a "trend", and that it's not "universal", is that it insulates you from any claims of erecting a strawman, or giving an un-nuanced argument yourself. It lets you make a broad claim, without having to stand behind it with facts or evidence.

There is no trend that Payne is "all knowing", or that the previous year was ALL Mariner's fault. Public opinion slowly turned on Mariner, and the job he did, but rarely (if ever) did anyone claim it was all his fault. Thinking a guy deserves to lose his job, isn't the same as assigning him 100% culpability.

There isn't a shred of evidence of anyone saying Payne is "all knowing" - there is lots of evidence of people tentatively approving of the job he has done to date (i.e. the things he has said, and the personnel decisions made) - while fully recognizing that not one game has been played yet.

All of these caveats are called "nuance". Unlike your simplistic portrayal of the mainstream opinions here.

- Scott

Auzzy
02-01-2013, 10:55 PM
EDIT the original post has disappeared, so the following is now completely out of context... :D

[^ Egads...]

Shakes McQueen
02-01-2013, 11:04 PM
There does however seem to be a lot more group-think on this board than most. The "group-think" here was that Mariner was the worst manager in the history of the universe and that Payne is the saviour. Those that suggested otherwise were called "trolls". I was even banned once for simply suggesting that I hoped Mariner would win a game, and start something going at the end of last season ... as things had gotten so negative here that was considered "trolling".

Was your intention to simply underline my point by piling on a bunch more completely unsubstantiated generalizations, and repeating a couple of the same ones Duane already made?

"There does however seem to be a lot more group-think on this board than most" <-- This one in particular, is incredible. You're always good for a solid facepalm, nfitz.

- Scott

Oldtimer
02-02-2013, 11:36 PM
This thread has gotten completely off of the original discussion of Payne's first draft for TFC. If there are no further comments to be made on this topic, we should consider this thread done.

jloome
02-03-2013, 01:21 PM
Lock it down, ot.