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View Full Version : The great 'Canadians aren't treated equally in MLS' debate thread



Yohan
01-04-2013, 10:18 AM
To keep the other thread from being derailed


So you think the MLS is a domestic league for Toronto that that the MLS has given Toronto the same treatment as other US teams?
I don't get it. what is not equal for Canadian teams? other than 3 roster spots have to be Canadians, Canadian teams have access to same US and int talent pool that US MLS teams do

Joe Kool
01-04-2013, 10:22 AM
Players get taxed more in Canada which is a deterrent to some but that isn't the fault of MLS. Other than that I can't think of any other reason eh? Maybe they don't like the culture eh? They can take off the bunch of hosers...

Yagbod
01-04-2013, 10:44 AM
It is not the teams that are treated unfairly, it is the players.

Canadian players are treated as international players. Thus it is much harder for developing Canadians to play professionally in the league.

We need them to be treated as domestic players in terms of roster spots.

Yohan
01-04-2013, 10:49 AM
It is not the teams that are treated unfairly, it is the players.

Canadian players are treated as international players. Thus it is much harder for developing Canadians to play professionally in the league.

We need them to be treated as domestic players in terms of roster spots.
this is a separate issue, and I don't think it's one that Canadian MLS teams are complaining about...

what Canadian MLS team wants and what Canadian national team wants is a completely separate thing (and for some reason people want to loop together)

WestStandGeoff
01-04-2013, 10:51 AM
I'm with you Joe... and with the new healthcare taxes that kicked in a couple days ago, the gap between Canada and the US is getting smaller.

And what's not to like about the culture? Toronto's got a lot more to offer than other MLS cities - definitely Columbus, KC and SLC, and I while they have certain charms, I could make a strong argument for Toronto over the likes of Denver, Porland, Seattle, Dallas, Houston, and even New England since Foxboro is so far away from Boston.

MartinUtd
01-04-2013, 10:53 AM
You could say it's harder to foster Canadian talent (that is required for us) when they are treated as a different commodity to American players in the league. If TFC has less ability to deal Canadian players, they're going to think twice about signing marginal Canadian prospects.

Yohan
01-04-2013, 10:57 AM
You could say it's harder to foster Canadian talent (that is required for us) when they are treated as a different commodity to American players in the league. If TFC has less ability to deal Canadian players, they're going to think twice about signing marginal Canadian prospects.
pretty much negligible, considering low salary cap hit most of these players would take up and these players are mostly depth players anyways. even most American depth players end up getting released instead of being traded

ensco
01-04-2013, 11:02 AM
Larson did something on this months ago
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/TorontoFC/2012/07/26/20032816.html

It's the lack of a flourishing PDL/USL/NCAA-type setup that Canada is missing. Much bigger deal than the MLS rules. Which are a little unfair.

jaahuuu
01-04-2013, 11:13 AM
It is not the teams that are treated unfairly, it is the players.

Canadian players are treated as international players. Thus it is much harder for developing Canadians to play professionally in the league.

We need them to be treated as domestic players in terms of roster spots.
I think this has something to do with US labor laws, not anything that MLS has any control over.

Yohan
01-04-2013, 11:14 AM
Larson did something on this months ago
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/TorontoFC/2012/07/26/20032816.html

I'm not sure if Montreal supporters even really cares to develop Canadian players... Quebec players, yes. Canadian players? Hmmm...

Yohan
01-04-2013, 11:19 AM
I think this has something to do with US labor laws, not anything that MLS has any control over.

I've been told US labour laws can be changed so that Canadians count as domestic player for US MLS teams, however, this requires a lot of lobbying by MLS and USSF. Would MLS and USSF want to expend political influence on behalf of CSA? For what benefit? Hmmm...

ensco
01-04-2013, 11:22 AM
You'd need to put getting rid of the CFL Import Rules on the table to even start talking about this. Seems like a non-starter to me.

Oldtimer
01-04-2013, 11:22 AM
I've been told US labour laws can be changed so that Canadians count as domestic player for US MLS teams, however, this requires a lot of lobbying by MLS and USSF. Would MLS and USSF want to expend political influence on behalf of CSA? For what benefit? Hmmm...

It's true. Back in the day, the old NASL got an exemption for Canadian players, they were treated the same as Americans for roster purposes. The same types of rules existed back then.
The CFL's rules weren't an obstacle back then, either.

Greatest Ripoff
01-04-2013, 11:31 AM
this is a separate issue, and I don't think it's one that Canadian MLS teams are complaining about..

It is not a separate issue. It devalues Canadian content in the trade market for Canadian teams because they count as internationals for almost all other teams.

Yagbod
01-04-2013, 11:38 AM
this is a separate issue, and I don't think it's one that Canadian MLS teams are complaining about...

what Canadian MLS team wants and what Canadian national team wants is a completely separate thing (and for some reason people want to loop together)

I doubt that very much. If Canadian teams have to have so many Canadians on their roster and they are at a disadvantage when trying to trade them then it is a shared issue.

Also, you mention that Canadian teams are complaining. What are they complaining about? Surely someone said something if you think they are complaining. What are the issues?

ag futbol
01-04-2013, 12:06 PM
Players get taxed more in Canada which is a deterrent to some but that isn't the fault of MLS. Other than that I can't think of any other reason eh? Maybe they don't like the culture eh? They can take off the bunch of hosers...
Depending on the market you could make cost of living arguments as well. Toronto and Vancouver are relatively on the expensive end of things. Although that's not a Canadian problem as much as a big market problem that in some way is probably balanced out by guys not wanting to go to sleepy cities with nothing to do. Oh wait that's also Vancouver *zing*

ag futbol
01-04-2013, 12:10 PM
I've been told US labour laws can be changed so that Canadians count as domestic player for US MLS teams, however, this requires a lot of lobbying by MLS and USSF. Would MLS and USSF want to expend political influence on behalf of CSA? For what benefit? Hmmm...
It's not labor laws. This one has been pretty much debunked. It's the way MLS and the USSF handle the rules. But as far as the content requirements go for Canadian teams, the CSA has authority over that, they just don't have much of a backbone.

prizby
01-04-2013, 12:12 PM
Players get taxed more in Canada which is a deterrent to some but that isn't the fault of MLS. Other than that I can't think of any other reason eh? Maybe they don't like the culture eh? They can take off the bunch of hosers...

This is why salaries (or the cap) should be based on net income, not gross


actually wouldn't mind seeing a euro setup...car, room, board + net income salary

ArmenJBX
01-04-2013, 12:21 PM
Players get taxed more in Canada which is a deterrent to some but that isn't the fault of MLS. Other than that I can't think of any other reason eh? Maybe they don't like the culture eh? They can take off the bunch of hosers...

Do they, though? I swear players negotiate contracts as a final figure, in that the club pays whatever taxes are necessary in order to get them their agreed-upon number. It's like that in Europe, where, for example, my $1 million a year contract actually costs the club $1.13 million with a 13% tax rate.

It may not be like that here though. I'll have to check.

Greatest Ripoff
01-04-2013, 12:59 PM
No births into the CCL for Canadian teams for wining the supporters shield or getting to the MLS cup final.

Yohan
01-04-2013, 02:10 PM
It is not a separate issue. It devalues Canadian content in the trade market for Canadian teams because they count as internationals for almost all other teams.

US MLS teams are willing to use an int spot to sign proven Canadian players if the price, and the salary is right. Will Johnson for example. So did Attakora. Hell even JDG went to Dallas and we thought he was virtually unmoveable (and I know TFC had to eat JDG's salary). Remember Kevin Harmse? He got traded to Chivas USA. Or Edson Edward who was signed by Dallas out of USL Ottawa.

Biggest obstacle for Canadian players being signed by MLS teams is that most Canadian players aren't good enough for MLS teams, esp when there are plenty of Americans who can do the job


I doubt that very much. If Canadian teams have to have so many Canadians on their roster and they are at a disadvantage when trying to trade them then it is a shared issue.
as of right now, it isn't much of an issue because most Canadian teams don't have many Canadian players. this might be an issue in the future if Canadian players start signing more Canadians from youth academies but in truth, just how many decent players will a Canadian youth academy will produce. maybe one a year if that?


Also, you mention that Canadian teams are complaining. What are they complaining about? Surely someone said something if you think they are complaining. What are the issues?I have speculations, nothing more.


It's not labor laws. This one has been pretty much debunked. It's the way MLS and the USSF handle the rules.
debunked how? please don't say USL lol.

But as far as the content requirements go for Canadian teams, the CSA has authority over that, they just don't have much of a backbone.
CSA agreed to reduced Canadian quota content because the Canadian talent pool isn't deep enough for Canadian MLS teams to be competitive. Remember Canizalez, Braz and Reda? Now with 3 Canadian teams, do you honestly believe there are good enough Canadian players out there to fill those teams and be competitive in MLS at same time?

I'm not even sure if CSA has the authority to change MLS rules. But CSA has the ability to change V Cup rules to up the Canadian quota for sure (and is something I think CSA should be doing)


No births into the CCL for Canadian teams for wining the supporters shield or getting to the MLS cup final.
you should take that issue up with USSF. MLS doesn't control how USSF allocations CCL spots

Macksam
01-04-2013, 05:16 PM
Larson did something on this months ago
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/TorontoFC/2012/07/26/20032816.html

It's the lack of a flourishing PDL/USL/NCAA-type setup that Canada is missing. Much bigger deal than the MLS rules. Which are a little unfair.

Yeah, hopefully a U-23 league fixes this problem.

Fort York Redcoat
01-05-2013, 09:12 AM
Biggest obstacle for Canadian players being signed by MLS teams is that most Canadian players aren't good enough for MLS teams, esp when there are plenty of Americans who can do the job


as of right now, it isn't much of an issue because most Canadian teams don't have many Canadian players. this might be an issue in the future if Canadian players start signing more Canadians from youth academies but in truth, just how many decent players will a Canadian youth academy will produce. maybe one a year if that?
I have speculations, nothing more.




This issue is more malleable than the Vcup issue of whether we concentrate/try/abandon the Vcup and Champions league. If people want to see immediate change in quality make sure those positions to CAnadians stay malleable as they are and keep them competitive. I hate the thought of limiting spots/chances for Canadians but I think the real problem is the poor gap in level quality between the leagues here.

ag futbol
01-05-2013, 12:30 PM
CSA agreed to reduced Canadian quota content because the Canadian talent pool isn't deep enough for Canadian MLS teams to be competitive. Remember Canizalez, Braz and Reda? Now with 3 Canadian teams, do you honestly believe there are good enough Canadian players out there to fill those teams and be competitive in MLS at same time?

I don't have a problem with them initially rolling it down. What I do have an issue with is not having a plan to increase it in the future and teams using paper-canaidans plus guys with residency cards to cover a messily three spots.

Do I think we can fill a fair number of spots and still be competitive? Yes I do, because most of these guys will never play, or play minor roles. What's the difference between some of the marginal americans on the back end of our roster and an extra canadian? It's only that the americans are more tradable assets because of the roster rules, that's it.

As for increasing the quota, teams have to sweat a little bit in terms of improving the youth setup and start thinking long term. They should know that while they can get way with three spots today it's going to be 5 spots by 2015, 8 spots by 2018, 10 spots by 2020 etc... Things at the youth level (despite all their marketing telling you they are the greatest) could be done a lot better and I honestly believe if it was run in the most efficient way possible it would provide us with a source of consistently good / cheap players and give us an advantage over other teams in the league. We are in a much better situation to develop this kind of model than basically any other team, with perhaps the exception of the Californian squads.

Yohan
01-05-2013, 02:42 PM
I don't have a problem with them initially rolling it down. What I do have an issue with is not having a plan to increase it in the future and teams using paper-canaidans plus guys with residency cards to cover a messily three spots.
It is a standard practice by all MLS teams to try to maximize their int spot available by getting their players green card/permanent residency as soon as possible. It makes sense from competitive POV. Unless you're asking teams to deliberately not be as competitive for CMNT's sake.

What do you do with dual citizenship Canadians and they declare for another country? Turf them?


Do I think we can fill a fair number of spots and still be competitive? Yes I do, because most of these guys will never play, or play minor roles. What's the difference between some of the marginal americans on the back end of our roster and an extra canadian? It's only that the americans are more tradable assets because of the roster rules, that's it.
What Canadian players need is regular playing time, not be on reserves. It does nothing for their development to play couple of reserve games and take up a roster spot.


As for increasing the quota, teams have to sweat a little bit in terms of improving the youth setup and start thinking long term. They should know that while they can get way with three spots today it's going to be 5 spots by 2015, 8 spots by 2018, 10 spots by 2020 etc... Things at the youth level (despite all their marketing telling you they are the greatest) could be done a lot better and I honestly believe if it was run in the most efficient way possible it would provide us with a source of consistently good / cheap players and give us an advantage over other teams in the league. We are in a much better situation to develop this kind of model than basically any other team, with perhaps the exception of the Californian squads.
I don't know about consistently good, if the best HG players keep getting poached by non MLS teams. TFC lost 2 to QPR, and SKC just lost one to Atletico Madrid. I have a feeling that there will be a lot of poaching going on, as soon as more European teams realize that they can steal MLS youth academy players without having to pay compensation.

So, what will MLS teams end up with? I'm prepared to be wrong in my prediction as HG experiment is only starting, and will take another 3 yrs or so for the program to fully kick in and a lot of HGs signed recently to prove themselves to be good MLS players.

I am of firm belief that biggest obstacle to player development in Canada is lack of good, stable Div 2 and 3 leagues. Historically, MLS teams, Canadian or US, will sign Canadian players if they are good enough. Restricting Canadian MLS teams' ability to be competitive by upping Canadian quota now, or immediately in the future will only be negative.

ag futbol
01-05-2013, 04:19 PM
Please hold the mustard on the “we can’t be competitive we a few more Canadians” stuff. Look at who is playing on the back end of MLS rosters, we could be fielding geriatrics in those spots and it wouldn’t hurt the competitive position of the team. It’s as simple as us giving spots for marginal professionals who are Americans as opposed to Canadians. You talk of regular playing time, but opportunity is a pre-cursor to that. More roster spots provide more opportunities.

As for the academy kids leaving, that isn’t new. FCD lost a kid who was starting in the Boca / River derby six months later. This stuff happens all throughout the world, the question is how do you respond to it. I don’t believe we’ve used all the resources at our disposal yet to fully maximize the value of the team (such as GA contracts). Asides from that, I have to say this is not the only issue that impacts the quality of what comes out of the academy. There are other probably more significant ways we can get better.

Yohan
01-05-2013, 04:37 PM
Please hold the mustard on the “we can’t be competitive we a few more Canadians” stuff. Look at who is playing on the back end of MLS rosters, we could be fielding geriatrics in those spots and it wouldn’t hurt the competitive position of the team. It’s as simple as us giving spots for marginal professionals who are Americans as opposed to Canadians. You talk of regular playing time, but opportunity is a pre-cursor to that. More roster spots provide more opportunities.
I wonder what Oscar Cordon and Keith Makubuya thinks of this. If I was a professional soccer player, I want game time to develop. I don't get that by rotting in the reserves. What you are proposing creates more Cordons and Makubuyas, which does nothing for CMNT pool

Toronto
01-05-2013, 05:40 PM
Yeah, hopefully a U-23 league fixes this problem.


Ya sign me up for u23 season tickets. :drinking: I couldn't give a rats ass where a player is from. It's nice that Montreal's captain is Canadian. It's nice that Vancouver is 4000KM away. It's nice that we wear red. It's not nice to finish dead last. Get me some players who are ready NOW and if he's from China or Texas-- who cares. I have ZERO interest in some kid whose 22 and not earning a paycheck from the sport playing in some u23 up scale garage league. That won't solve a dam thing. Not a single thing in terms of winning games for TFC or for Canada.

brad
01-05-2013, 08:30 PM
Players get taxed more in Canada which is a deterrent to some but that isn't the fault of MLS. Other than that I can't think of any other reason eh? Maybe they don't like the culture eh? They can take off the bunch of hosers...

Their partners also won't be able to work in Canada - so if you are on a standard MLS salary and your partner is earning a good income - you could be taking a serious dent int the family income or living apart for awhile.

Again - not an MLS thing, but a strike against us. I know one ex-player of ours who left for this specific reason.

Auzzy
01-05-2013, 10:02 PM
I do believe Canadians aren't quite treated equally in MLS; there are some disadvantages for the Cdn players & the teams that employ them. Look at Harden getting picked up after TFC dumped him; compare that with some decent Canadians not being picked up. There are plenty of other examples.

However, all that's frankly to be expected for a country with a population of 35 million, one of the wealthiest in the world, with plenty of locals & immigrants very interested in soccer, massive participation at the youth level -- yet Canada can't assemble it's own 1st-division pro league; only three teams playing in another country's top league; not even a decent national 2nd- or 3rd-division league; and miserable results for the men's national team especially relative to Canada's potential. So yes, all that brings some disadvantages for Cdn. players & teams. However, it's still a benefit that those teams & players can at least take part in MLS.

I'm very happy that MLS exists & that Toronto takes part in that. But we have to realize the whole situation has downsides for Canada. I know where the habit to join US leagues comes from, I know about Canada's unique geography, I know the impact US pro sports has on the Cdn market & it's effect on the viability of a separate Cdn soccer league. Yet other countries with much smaller & poorer populations, with other unique geographic challenges, and other competing sports interests, still manage to assemble their own national soccer leagues (& multiple divisions) where they can do as they please. Unfortunately, that's life for Toronto FC & Cdn soccer.

However, it would be a worthwhile interview topic with folks involved with MLS in Canada. Have they tried to get Cdn players treated as domestics for US MLS leagues? Have US labour laws changed since the NASL days? Perhaps USSF just isn't interested in helping out Canada & its players any more? In the end, USSF is a key factor, as they organized & sanctioned MLS, to meet the needs of US soccer development, and the requirements of FIFA for hosting a World Cup.

Auzzy
01-05-2013, 10:07 PM
People are also touching on other general MLS problems. Like the lack of a decent reserve league with a full schedule of games. Plus the big gap at the top of the Academies: what to do with the players that have graduated from their Academy, have decent potential, yet aren't quite ready for the big leagues? Add the fact that Academy players can be poached from overseas, and their MLS teams get little in return.

Fort York Redcoat
01-06-2013, 10:40 AM
Ya sign me up for u23 season tickets. :drinking: I couldn't give a rats ass where a player is from. It's nice that Montreal's captain is Canadian. It's nice that Vancouver is 4000KM away. It's nice that we wear red. It's not nice to finish dead last. Get me some players who are ready NOW and if he's from China or Texas-- who cares. I have ZERO interest in some kid whose 22 and not earning a paycheck from the sport playing in some u23 up scale garage league. That won't solve a dam thing. Not a single thing in terms of winning games for TFC or for Canada.

Riiiiiight. Another league for bench players to get time in wouldn't help and you wouldn't pay to see them play. One has very little to do with the other . Reserve league games have been free for some time.


Your lack of interest for local or national success is duly noted.

ag futbol
01-07-2013, 09:26 PM
I wonder what Oscar Cordon and Keith Makubuya thinks of this. If I was a professional soccer player, I want game time to develop. I don't get that by rotting in the reserves. What you are proposing creates more Cordons and Makubuyas, which does nothing for CMNT pool
There was Joey Melo / Andre Lombardo before, there are Oscar Cordon/ Keith Makubuya now, and there will be prospects we cut in the future as well. I'm not really all that inclined to care if we go through a few guys, thus is the nature of a prospect. Doniel Henry was quoted after season saying something that amounted to "tough to lose your academy friends, but it's a business". Obviously things have worked out for him and he doesn't feel very hard done by when it comes to dealings with TFC.

When it comes to the two guys who just went out the door what I could like to know is: Did TFC have a solid plan to develop them in the first place? Did they actually follow through on that plan? Did they make the players aware of what they were getting into? If we held up on the three points above I can sleep soundly saying we cut things off at the end of last season and have clean hands. Time to keep bringing in more players, learn from what we did previously and continue the process.

But the point here I'm trying to get to is that if you have the depth at the academy level you need to try these guys out at the pro level to see if they work. Things won't always be apparent from watching against competition in the CSL. You also have to develop the capabilities and confidence to try out some of these players. Think back to when Nicolas Lindsay broke through. They sign the kid to a pro contract, he starts one game under Preki in unfavorable conditions and he subs him after 20 minutes. He may never have played again if Preki stuck around. He's an old school MLS coach who just didn't know what he was dealing with. Dasovic comes in and within a couple games Lindsay is playing like the best wide threat we've ever had on the team, serving accurate balls into the box and taking on players with pace. I think we all agree he would have been a great player for us if it wasn't for that stupid snowmobile. Extreme illustration, but I do it to get to a point.

As much as the league is lacking some resources to develop youth prospects, i think it equally lacks the mentality to do it. It's fundamentally different than bringing through a college player or a teenage phenom who can instantly adjust. While the situation isn't perfect, I think there are more resources available to develop players right now than teams are taking advantage of, and it's still worth while to stock youth talent at the end of the roster. Fears of not being competitive because of spots 22+ deep on your roster? Misplaced.

Yohan
01-08-2013, 12:05 AM
There was Joey Melo / Andre Lombardo before, there are Oscar Cordon/ Keith Makubuya now, and there will be prospects we cut in the future as well. I'm not really all that inclined to care if we go through a few guys, thus is the nature of a prospect. Doniel Henry was quoted after season saying something that amounted to "tough to lose your academy friends, but it's a business". Obviously things have worked out for him and he doesn't feel very hard done by when it comes to dealings with TFC.

When it comes to the two guys who just went out the door what I could like to know is: Did TFC have a solid plan to develop them in the first place? Did they actually follow through on that plan? Did they make the players aware of what they were getting into? If we held up on the three points above I can sleep soundly saying we cut things off at the end of last season and have clean hands. Time to keep bringing in more players, learn from what we did previously and continue the process.

But the point here I'm trying to get to is that if you have the depth at the academy level you need to try these guys out at the pro level to see if they work. Things won't always be apparent from watching against competition in the CSL. You also have to develop the capabilities and confidence to try out some of these players. Think back to when Nicolas Lindsay broke through. They sign the kid to a pro contract, he starts one game under Preki in unfavorable conditions and he subs him after 20 minutes. He may never have played again if Preki stuck around. He's an old school MLS coach who just didn't know what he was dealing with. Dasovic comes in and within a couple games Lindsay is playing like the best wide threat we've ever had on the team, serving accurate balls into the box and taking on players with pace. I think we all agree he would have been a great player for us if it wasn't for that stupid snowmobile. Extreme illustration, but I do it to get to a point.

As much as the league is lacking some resources to develop youth prospects, i think it equally lacks the mentality to do it. It's fundamentally different than bringing through a college player or a teenage phenom who can instantly adjust. While the situation isn't perfect, I think there are more resources available to develop players right now than teams are taking advantage of, and it's still worth while to stock youth talent at the end of the roster. Fears of not being competitive because of spots 22+ deep on your roster? Misplaced.

well argued. still think it's best for young prospects to get time at USL/NASL level, even PDL level for playing time. there has to be a concrete plan to develop players once graduated from youth academy and signed to first team with projected readiness to play first team football, and best way to do that is getting first team mins at lower leagues.