The Official Paul Mariner "Deathwatch" thread

[Yohan]

Because it's bound to happen eventually

[tfcleeds]

I like the concept of this thread.

[CommradePolski]

Well played Yohan. Well played.

[Gazza]

Wishing death on the guy is a little morbid don't you think? Understandable, but not something i can get behind.

[Yohan]

Wishing death on the guy is a little morbid don't you think? Understandable, but not something i can get behind.

It's suppose to be about when Mariner is getting fired ;p

[TOBOR !]

Wishing death on the guy is a little morbid don't you think? Understandable, but not something i can get behind.

Lulz - not sure if you're joking, but say you did actually believe this to be a PM Deathwatch thread.

What about it is 'understandable' , yet not something you can 'get behind'.

Anyhoo..

[tfcleeds]

When he inevitably does get the axe, or simply resigns, I think his best bet may be to get in a time machine and go back to the mid-80s and manage Ipswich Town.

[Dreadlocks]

Mariner is clearly a self-serving 'hothead' that's full of himself!! The sooner he's gone, the better. However, I think his dismissal will happen later rather than sooner for the simple reason of his contract extension. I think he'll be given every chance to keep his job but the second he steps too far out of line he'll be shown the door.

Also, a Rongen - DeKlerk coaching tandem sounds good to me.

[Gazza]

It's suppose to be about when Mariner is getting fired ;p

Well that's no fun!

[ensco]

I disagree with this totally. It's more important that we unconditionally support Payne's ultimate decision, than it is that we get our "way". Besides:

1) It is conceivable that Mariner might be successful yet at TFC. Hard to imagine, maybe highly unlikely, but conceivable
2) Mariner worked in a dysfunctional setup. He may perform/behave completely differently in the new structure
3) Some of his unorthodox behaviour was passion. I respect passion.
4) Paul Mariner deserves respect based on his long career in football

I say all this as someone who would vote to see Mariner gone. But if Payne wants to see how it goes, then I will support Mariner.

[DOMIN8R]

I'm no fan of Mariner. But unless Payne finds a replacement for him in the next few weeks, I'll get behind him. I'm not going to start the new season already disagreeing with Payne's decision to go with Mariner. What Ensco wrote - whatever Payne decides I support. He's the Prez now. Let's support his decisions right out of the gate.

[maninb]

Watched a few shows who have mentioned Payne...he sounds like a total "hands on" guy, who gets VERY involved in the football side of a team....So NO WAY Mariner lasts very long...Why?....#1) He's a TERRIBLE football manager...and #2...He's an EGO MANIAC who won't tolerate "interference".....I see him leaving EARLY in a "mutual decision"....

[cochrdoc]

Mariner will only be around if the team has a revamped roster.If he goes with the rejects he brought in at mid season we are in trouble.If Hall thinks he can be the number 1 keeper we better drop down to the Usl league.Wiedemen might be a starting caliber player their.

[Ajax TFC]

Just watched the 1 on 1 with Payne on TSN. He absolutely refuses to give Mariner any kind of endorsement what so ever. When asked he says that he thinks highly of him, but he still has to evaluate everyone. He says Paul Mariner IS the coach. Very similar to how on March 31, 2011, "De Rosario is still a TFC player" or how Plata is still a TFC player, etc. saying what the current situation is, but saying absolutely nothing about the future situation. Watching it, I got the impression that Payne knows exactly how much Mariner has fucked the team up, but won't say crap about him (for obvious reasons). I wouldn't be surprised to see him canned, or get "reassigned" a la Nick Dasovic or Bob de Klerk, in a couple of weeks. He may already be planning it

[Alonso]

I disagree with this totally. It's more important that we unconditionally support Payne's ultimate decision, than it is that we get our "way". Besides:

1) It is conceivable that Mariner might be successful yet at TFC. Hard to imagine, maybe highly unlikely, but conceivable
2) Mariner worked in a dysfunctional setup. He may perform/behave completely differently in the new structure
3) Some of his unorthodox behaviour was passion. I respect passion.
4) Paul Mariner deserves respect based on his long career in football

I say all this as someone who would vote to see Mariner gone. But if Payne wants to see how it goes, then I will support Mariner.


These echo my sentiments.

If Payne and Mariner can make it work... then fucking great!

I want results, not a witch hunt.

If Payne stands behind the man, in his wisdom, then I do to.

So I wait and see what Mr. Payne does and says.

[ensco]

Just thought I'd post this to remind everyone that most things in life are not all one way or the other. I defy any Mariner hater to read this through and tell me they don't feel at least a tiny bit differently about him.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-revolution/tag/_/name/taylor-twellman

[crozack]

Just thought I'd post this to remind everyone that most things in life are not all one way or the other. I defy any Mariner hater to read this through and tell me they don't feel at least a tiny bit differently about him.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-revolution/tag/_/name/taylor-twellman

It just means Mariner is a wonderful "strikers" coach in the mls

Ive won as many head coaching titles as him and I dont coach football

[lobo]

Just thought I'd post this to remind everyone that most things in life are not all one way or the other. I defy any Mariner hater to read this through and tell me they don't feel at least a tiny bit differently about him.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-revolution/tag/_/name/taylor-twellman

ok, i do feel a little differently about mariner after reading that ... he's not a complete loser, he could probably be a good assistant coach again, somewhere. g:D

[Belfast_Boy]

I believe there's a Holy Trinity in football. The team, the manager and the supporters. Our trinity needs a lot of work.
Would I like a truly great manager, someone that knows the modern North American game? A real tactician ?
Of course I would. Unfortunately we have Mariner.
The most important thing to me is football and the success of our team. If Payne can do that with Mariner that's great.
I will go to games and support our team. At the end of the day I still think Mariner is a cocksmoker.

[Torontotonto]

Its Day 1 with a new President on the job.
New prez, but were all at it again
I'm no fan of Mariner, but will put my faith in Payne at this time.

As Alonso stated earlier "If Payne stands behind the man, in his wisdom, then I do to."

[trane]

I believe there's a Holy Trinity in football. The team, the manager and the supporters. Our trinity needs a lot of work.
Would I like a truly great manager, someone that know the modern North American game? A real tactician ?
Of course I would. Unfortunately we have Mariner.
The most important thing to me is football and the success of our team. If Payne can do that with Mariner that's great.
I will go to games and support our team. At the end of the day I still think Mariner is a cocksmoker.


I am with you. Lets be honest, I do not trully beleive that Payne supports Mariner, he just needs to give him a chance, before brining his own dude. The chance are that Mariner will continue to be shit, and he will be replaced, if he does well, great ( I doubt it).

[Ajax TFC]

Why are people giving the benefit of the doubt to Mariner? Until Payne officially endorses Mariner, which he strictly avoided doing at all cost during the presser, we should assume that he does not endorse Mariner. If Payne supports Mariner (and that's a HUGE "if"), then we can all pretend to support the decision. But until then, the fact remains that the squad (bar those in his starting XI) hates him, he missuses players and benches players for months for not showing enough passion in the two minutes that he does give them, he sabotaged the team to get there, and he's leaking shit the the press. I challenge anyone to find a reason why Payne would endorse Mariner. Also, Mariner is the personification of everything that Payne clearly stated that he's against.

[lobo]

i don't think it is inconsistent to say we will support Payne, but at the same time expect to see mariner gone at some future point ... this thread, at least to me, is just a bit of fun ... how long will mariner last under the new prez?

those of us who demonstrated and sent messages to anselmi calling for a new president were not calling for mariner's head, neither then or now. we wanted to see a new management structure, and now it's here. mariner's fate is in payne's hands, or at least should be. next few months will be interesting.

frankly, i welcome the payne. very happy with mlse's choice for our new football boss, and i support him too, even in the unlikely case that he keeps mariner on long term. realistically, who can see mariner surviving long term though? it's not very likely mariner will be out immediately, but the mariner deathwatch is on.

[ensco]

Why are people giving the benefit of the doubt to Mariner? Until Payne officially endorses Mariner, which he strictly avoided doing at all cost during the presser, we should assume that he does not endorse Mariner.

No. We should assume that Payne has no opinion about Mariner. Not the same thing at all.

Payne deserves time and space to make up his own mind. Mariner deserves some consideration here too, because the right thing to do is for Payne to hear him out.

Voir, juger, agir.

[tfcleeds]

Just because we should be behind Payne doesn't necessarily mean we should be behind Mariner. As Ajax said, nothing Payne has stated so far shows an absolute endorsement of Mariner. A lot could still happen between now and the beginning of the season. I agree that Mariner will in all likelihood start out as manager next season, and Payne will see for himself how things go, but part of me feels quite confident that Mariner won't be around all season. I don't know, I just have that feeling. Of course, if Mariner DOES manage to turn things around, I think that leaves us no choice but to back him. But I don't see that happening somehow.

[Auzzy]

Over the past 6 months I've often been incredibly pissed off at Mariner. However, I agree totally with what Ensco & DOMIN8R said above.

Just like I didn't want Winter to be canned by Anselmi & the rest of the old management (I wanted those decisions made by knowledgeable footy management after the ownership change); I didn't want Mariner to be fired by Anselmi & Co, despite my growing hate for Mariner -- because I was convinced they would screw it up even worse with the next coach they pick. Now that there's a new boss in town, I'm going to relax & see what Payne thinks is the right thing to do. Even if that doesn't pan out very well in the short term.

It's interesting to note that Mariner was a long-time assistant coach & well-liked in New England. So obviously he's doesn't always play the hot-headed, arrogant, my-way-or-the-highway, clueless asshole that he's been in the past 6 months. Like others before him at TFC, Mariner was allowed into a role that was way over his head, and that side of his personality came through in all its ugliness. Maybe Payne will find a more suitable role for Mariner; or eventually let him go if it doesn't work out.

Sure I'm also worried about Payne being sabotaged by the old guys hanging around (like with deciding to keep Hassli in the last moment). However, I believe MLSE knows that Mariner has close to 0 rapport with the fan base. I highly doubt Mariner endeared himself to MLSE/TFC management in the past few months either; while Anselmi and others were playing nice with the fans, dropping prices, saying the right things (e.g., "we screwed up & have to fix it" even if that all rang hollow), Mariner was pissing off everyone around him, telling press that he's very good at his job, etc. etc.

[backbeat]

Why are people giving the benefit of the doubt to Mariner? Until Payne officially endorses Mariner, which he strictly avoided doing at all cost during the presser, we should assume that he does not endorse Mariner. If Payne supports Mariner (and that's a HUGE "if"), then we can all pretend to support the decision. But until then, the fact remains that the squad (bar those in his starting XI) hates him, he missuses players and benches players for months for not showing enough passion in the two minutes that he does give them, he sabotaged the team to get there, and he's leaking shit the the press. I challenge anyone to find a reason why Payne would endorse Mariner. Also, Mariner is the personification of everything that Payne clearly stated that he's against.

exactly - as i said on the other Mariner thread:

when Payne was asked about his coaching staff for next season he certainly did not ringingly support them.

He said (words to the effect), "I can tell you where one bathroom is - haven't been here more than 5 hours - a little challenging to answer those questions - but i can tell you PM is the coach of TFC - I need a lot more time to spend more time with folks and understand them but we'll take that time."

this to me is a hedge until he takes a few weeks to digest. he in no way said PM is his man for 2013...if Payne decides to start 2013 with Mariner I'll support it but i really don't see Mariner as a Payne type coach, at all....

[Belfast_Boy]

No. We should assume that Payne has no opinion about Mariner. Not the same thing at all.

Payne deserves time and space to make up his own mind. Mariner deserves some consideration here too, because the right thing to do is for Payne to hear him out.

Voir, juger, agir.

I think he has a definite opinion on Mariner. he played his cards close to this chest yesterday. he didn't endorse him, he was very reserved.
Payne said it best. he viewed Mariner as the competition in the past. if he's worth his salt he'll have done his homework on the man.

[T-boy]

The title of this thread is way out of order and way past the line of decency, in my opinion.

[tfcleeds]

The title of this thread is way out of order and way past the line of decency, in my opinion.How is it any different from the myriad other threads we've had on here over the years wishing for Mo's head, or Preki's, or Winter's, or...? If it's the term "deathwatch" that's the issue, I think most people realize it's referring to his tenure with TFC, and not his...well...mortality. Anyways, it's an interesting topic, because Mariner's position with this club ISN'T secure now that Payne is here, so many people will be following those developments closely, regardless of how they feel about Mariner as manager.

[ryan]

If Payne stands behind Mariner, I wonder if I can stand behind him, but that's just my opinion.

[Cashcleaner]

As it has been mentioned, when the subject of Mariner was brought up in Payne's press conference he didn't exactly give the guy glowing praise for his work with the club so far. Kevin Payne is no idiot and probably has better insight on PM than most of us already. I'm coinfident he'll do what he thinks is best for the club.

[spark]

As it has been mentioned, when the subject of Mariner was brought up in Payne's press conference he didn't exactly give the guy glowing praise for his work with the club so far. Kevin Payne is no idiot and probably has better insight on PM than most of us already. I'm coinfident he'll do what he thinks is best for the club.

Agreed. If he is as sharp as everyone says then it doesn't take a genius to realize the circumstances surrounding Mariner's hiring are off-centre. PM will have a lot to prove if he is going to stay on beyond mid-season.

[Detroit_TFC]

Every manager is hired to be eventually replaced, even the one you like if any. Unless you are Jimmy Davies at Waterloo Dock FC in the Liverpool County Premier League (tier 11), he is there permanently (since club was founded in 1963).

[Detroit_TFC]

Wiki ninja

[TOBOR !]

Wiki ninja

LOL^

T-boy ; don't be so sensitive, man. There's nothing wrong with the thread title. The OP just missed the apparent mood-shift of the board in general.

Timing is everything.

[Yohan]

I don't think Mariner will get turfed before pre season, just because Anselmi backed Mariner up publically. Would Payne make Anselmi look like a fool by firing Mariner now?

[tfcleeds]

^But if Anselmi has given Payne carte-blanche, which is basically what he said in the press conference, what does it matter if Payne actually did decide to turf Mariner before the pre-season? I'm sure in that case Anselmi would just come up with one of his "well, it wasn't working, and we needed to go a different direction" soundbites.

[ryan]

I don't think Mariner will get turfed before pre season, just because Anselmi backed Mariner up publically. Would Payne make Anselmi look like a fool by firing Mariner now?

Not sure how much Anselmi cares now. With the Payne hire, all the clubs have their presidents. He's no longer a club president, he's the overseer of the presidents.

If that's what Payne wants, then I tihnk Anselmi will be happy to support him. Mariner is tied to Anselmi, him going further distances him from being responsible for the results of the club.

[Yohan]

Not sure how much Anselmi cares now. With the Payne hire, all the clubs have their presidents. He's no longer a club president, he's the overseer of the presidents.

If that's what Payne wants, then I tihnk Anselmi will be happy to support him. Mariner is tied to Anselmi, him going further distances him from being responsible for the results of the club.I just figure if Anselmi was on the hunt for a new president and if he was going to give him a carte blanche, he wouldn't back Mariner publically without a good reason. Because I don't think Anselmi likes being looked like a fool to back Mariner, only to let a new president fire Mariner.

[Alonso]

I don't think Mariner will get turfed before pre season, just because Anselmi backed Mariner up publically. Would Payne make Anselmi look like a fool by firing Mariner now?


Payne would be way too late for that mission. Anselmi crossed that bridge all by himself.

[Oldtimer]

Every manager is hired to be eventually replaced, even the one you like if any. Unless you are Jimmy Davies at Waterloo Dock FC in the Liverpool County Premier League (tier 11), he is there permanently (since club was founded in 1963).

Wow, that's an obscure reference. Tier 11 would be like Dixie Soccer Club over here!

[mod mode] I'm renaming the thread from Deathwatch to "Deathwatch," to help those who don't like the thread name. [/mod mode]

[T-boy]

How is it any different from the myriad other threads we've had on here over the years wishing for Mo's head, or Preki's, or Winter's, or...? If it's the term "deathwatch" that's the issue, I think most people realize it's referring to his tenure with TFC, and not his...well...mortality. Anyways, it's an interesting topic, because Mariner's position with this club ISN'T secure now that Payne is here, so many people will be following those developments closely, regardless of how they feel about Mariner as manager.

As the title originally was, I think it would be a little difficult to justify IF Mariner did happen to die! Especially if it was a mystery death somehow or of unnatural causes! Be careful what you wish for on the internet sometimes!

[Detroit_TFC]

Would that make us accessories after the fact? I'm lawyering up!

[Ajax TFC]

I just figure if Anselmi was on the hunt for a new president and if he was going to give him a carte blanche, he wouldn't back Mariner publically without a good reason. Because I don't think Anselmi likes being looked like a fool to back Mariner, only to let a new president fire Mariner.
Anselmi should just do the honorable and respectable thing, and say that he made decisions based on what he thought were in the best interests of the club, but due to his limited knowledge of the sport, mistakes were made and Payne is here to ensure that those mistakes aren't made again. I would honestly gain a great deal of respect for the man if he could swallow his pride and say that, and it would also be in the best interest of the club

[Oldtimer]

Anselmi should just do the honorable and respectable thing, and say that he made decisions based on what he thought were in the best interests of the club, but due to his limited knowledge of the sport, mistakes were made and Payne is here to ensure that those mistakes aren't made again. I would honestly gain a great deal of respect for the man if he could swallow his pride and say that, and it would also be in the best interest of the club

Listen closely to his interview... he didn't say it so bluntly, but he actually hints that he had made a mistake with AW (although he also says it's one that others have made, as well). He has said in the past that he knows little of the sport. I'd class him as a classic big corporation climber and survivor, not an egomaniac.

[T-boy]

Anselmi should just do the honorable and respectable thing, and say that he made decisions based on what he thought were in the best interests of the club, but due to his limited knowledge of the sport, mistakes were made and Payne is here to ensure that those mistakes aren't made again. I would honestly gain a great deal of respect for the man if he could swallow his pride and say that, and it would also be in the best interest of the club

there's only a certian amount of time that any president/CEO/GM can stand in front of the media and go through everything over and over again. I think its at the point now that we just need the NEW GM to get on with the job behind closed doors of making this team/club a winner. I don't need constant interviews about it or apologies, I just want future actions to speak louder than any words about the past.

[tiberius]

I disagree with this totally. It's more important that we unconditionally support Payne's ultimate decision, than it is that we get our "way". Besides:

1) It is conceivable that Mariner might be successful yet at TFC. Hard to imagine, maybe highly unlikely, but conceivable
2) Mariner worked in a dysfunctional setup. He may perform/behave completely differently in the new structure
3) Some of his unorthodox behaviour was passion. I respect passion.
4) Paul Mariner deserves respect based on his long career in football

I say all this as someone who would vote to see Mariner gone. But if Payne wants to see how it goes, then I will support Mariner.

Paul Mariner deserved respect based upon his long and successful career as a player WHEN HE ARRIVED at our club. He pissed away all of this "goodwill" long ago and doesn't deserve one iota of respect vis-a-vis being the coach of TFC at this point, based on his playing career. He deserves respect now based on what he has done and accomplished in the past two years - nothing more, nothing less. With his looooong winless streak he would be carrying into next season, along with a truckload of past bleeps, foul-ups and blunders, PM has done little to earn any respect as a coach. Fortunately for us, Payne is unlikely to be awed by by PM's playing career...

Get the popcorn out folks, this is going to be an interesting off-season. Payne has several potential manager replacements already on his staff. On top of that, he can attract other managers to join our team - the stigma of Toronto FC is now gone. They also have deep pockets to go after any manager they choose - no salary cap or team finances to get in the way... If Payne already sees Mariner as an inept buffoon, why would he go into next season with short pants, monkey dance?? If Payne is half the man I think he is, he may well give us a well deserved Christmas present under the tree. Payne does the next manager a huge favour by getting him in place as soon as possible. Even putting Rongen or DeKlerk in as a caretaker until he can get the coach he wants will be a huge step forward - at least the team philosophy will be righted again...

If it takes Payne 6 months to see through Mariner, so be it - but I don't think it will take 10 minutes with both of them in the same room together before Payne figures out he has a coaching problem to solve. After he gets that far along in his thinking, why wait?

[notthesun]

I disagree with this totally. It's more important that we unconditionally support Payne's ultimate decision, than it is that we get our "way". Besides:

1) It is conceivable that Mariner might be successful yet at TFC. Hard to imagine, maybe highly unlikely, but conceivable
2) Mariner worked in a dysfunctional setup. He may perform/behave completely differently in the new structure
3) Some of his unorthodox behaviour was passion. I respect passion.
4) Paul Mariner deserves respect based on his long career in football

I say all this as someone who would vote to see Mariner gone. But if Payne wants to see how it goes, then I will support Mariner.

1. Agreed.
2. Agreed.
3. That's quite the positive spin to put on all the unbelievably idiotic things he's done.
4. Entirely irrelevant for a manager.

Despite the 2nd point being accurate, he showed me nothing that would have me believe he's fit for the job if our structural issues were fixed. Until he proves me otherwise, I'll continue to hold the opinion that he should be fired. I'll certainly support the team with him at the helm, but I can't honestly support Mariner himself until I feel like he is directly contributing to wins - or no longer directly contributing to losses.

[Wull]

I'll back off and give Kevin Payne the type of space and time he needs but I will never support someone who actively sabotaged our club to move up the ladder. That means both mariner and cochrane won't be seeing the banners and hearing the chants for a while but there's no possible scenario that will ever make me feel okay with them being part of this club, including an MLS cup win.

[mcolvy]

4. Entirely irrelevant for a manager.


Success as a manager has nothing to do with how good a player he was in his day. I would almost say that certain traits of a successful footballer would make them bad managers.

[Sullivan]

Here's something else to add to Payne finding his way at TFC.
What do you think DeRo had to say about Mariner when Payne reached out to him?

[ryan]

Here's something else to add to Payne finding his way at TFC.
What do you think DeRo had to say about Mariner when Payne reached out to him?

DeRo didn't play for Mariner that I know of.

[Ajax TFC]

DeRo didn't play for Mariner that I know of.
But wasn't mariner the one in charge of contracts at the time?

[Suds]

But wasn't mariner the one in charge of contracts at the time?

Without getting off this thread and down the into DeRo saga too much, my feeling is it may be time to just move on from that time in our short history. I loved DeRo in a TFC shirt and was not happy with the way things ended. However, with the reset in ticket prices and the hiring of a new president the club is looking for a fresh start. IMO it's better to leave as much of the past in the past and move on from where we are now.

Back on topic - I think Mariner & co know they are on a short leash. Every aspect of the club and its personnel need to be reviewed. Mariner has not won me over or convinced me he is the guy. Now that he has a full start to the season as the head coach we will see how well he does. I want to give Payne time to figure out how to move the club forward. If that means he needs time to evaluate the coaching staff then so be it.

I'm guessing Mariner gets the full season unless something drastically goes wrong like another brutal start to the season.

[Pookie]

But wasn't mariner the one in charge of contracts at the time?

Both Mariner and Winter walked into the DeRo situation. In fact, DeRo gave his infamous "may hold out" post press conference interview at the time of their arrival.

I'm all for holding Mariner accountable but in this case, this situation was already spiraling to the place of no good for everyone.

Now, Cochrane was here through all of it and was singled out specifically by DeRo for the Celtic-permission fiasco.

[Oldtimer]

As it has been mentioned, when the subject of Mariner was brought up in Payne's press conference he didn't exactly give the guy glowing praise for his work with the club so far. Kevin Payne is no idiot and probably has better insight on PM than most of us already. I'm coinfident he'll do what he thinks is best for the club.

It looks like that insight has resulted in a predictable decision... proving that Kevin Payne is no idiot. :D So thankful that Mariner is gone from coaching.

[Wombat]

When he inevitably does get the axe, or simply resigns, I think his best bet may be to get in a time machine and go back to the mid-80s and manage Ipswich Town.

Yes Paul Mariner is definitely 'old school' (which is not necessarily a bad thing) but if you are comparing Paul Mariner to Sir Bobby Robson, hugely successful Ipswich manager in the 1980's, please give yerself a shake.....

[tfcleeds]

^Wasn't comparing Mariner to Sir Bobby at all! In all fairness, I did say "mid-80s", by which time Robson was already with England national team. But yeah, my general point was, Mariner's tactics and approach to the game definitely belong in that era.