How many games will Mariner have?

[Belfast_Boy]

pretty simple. how many games before Paul packs up his shorts and heads to Bermuda?

[Phil]

I would seriously doubt that if he starts 0-5 he would make it past that. This team learned that 0-9 was too deep to get out of. Given the Rongden suggestions it might be sooner rather than later.

[Belfast_Boy]

he'll need a little rope to hang himself. I say 7 games and he'll be history!

[Ultra & Proud]

Although there he has a lot of stubborn in him, I could see Mariner's ego getting bruised from this and him stepping down.

[ryan]

Although there he has a lot of stubborn in him, I could see Mariner's ego getting bruised from this and him stepping down.

He's far too good at what he does to step down.

[trane]

No more then 10. But clearly if he starts 0-3, 0-4, 0-5, he will be let go earlier.

[Joe Kool]

It will be based on results. But I have faith that he won't get many good results with the decisions he makes to not fill his bench with available players and play favourites for sometimes no apparent reason, not make the subs he should make at the time he should make them, and to play players out of position among other things. I am going to go for 11-18 as a guess but a nose dive at the beginning of the season could change all of that.

[Nuvinho]

Mariner will find a "better opportunity" somewhere else. That's how MLSE can get away with saying he is fired before the season starts.

[Auzzy]

I'm very upset. I think he will be given 10 games time. CENSORSHIP I tell ya! ;)

[CommradePolski]

I hope him and his shorts dont see a single game. But Im sure he will be coach for the 0-4 start we will most likely have.

But he could also be let go during preseason if Payne see's that he's as incompetent as he is.

[ag futbol]

I don't know, I could see it gonig one of two ways:

1) He completely flames out within the first 10 games and gets shown the door

2) He bumbles through the season in an unimpressive but not totally inept fashion and gets fired at the end.

Depends on the offseason signings. If there's no strong reinforcements, we'll be toast early.

[TOBOR !]

Payne has to recognise that PM needs to go.

[DangerRed]

Things can change, but I have it on good authority that firing Mariner before the start of the season is not an option currently on the table. I personally think that if we go no wins in the first 5 games, PM will have a problem.

[tfcleeds]

Although I voted within the first 9 games of the season, I think it could just as easily be that Mariner's shorts don't see the BMO sidelines at all thsi season. He's got an ego, and now he doesn't have Anselmi to be his patsy anymore. If he and Payne have any serious differences before the beginning of the season, he's gone.

[ManUtd4ever]

Aside from being on a very short leash, Mariner now also has the unenviable distinction of being a lame duck coach, which won't exactly inspire confidence or respect from the players.

[Alonso]

Aside fom being on a very short leash, Mariner now also has the unenviable distinction of being a lame duck coach, which won't exactly inspire confidence or respect from the players.



That's why Anselmi needs to get out of the way and let Payne make all the decisions regarding players and personnel.

If Payne can legitimately stand behind Mariner on his own accord for a season then so be it. But to make him do it, would almost certainly flush next season down the toilet.

[Initial B]

I think that MLS will stack the schedule in TFCs favour by having them face weaker teams at the start of the season (Montreal, Chivas, New England, etc) to give Mariner the best chance possible, so I don't see them losing the first 5 games. However, I think that by end of June Payne will have had enough time to see where the team is headed and if Mariner is to be sacked, it will happen about 2-3 weeks before the summer transfer window so Panye can bring in some new talent and give a new coach time to gel with the new system before the second half of the season starts.

If Mariner somehow does the improbable and gets the team to play .400 ball or better, then I expect he'll be staying until the end of the season at least.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I don't care. If it's a mid sesason or closer to the start of the season change I just want the replacement to succeed so I don't have to hear another fucking "need a full season" excuse.

[ensco]

I think the Mariner bashing has to end now. It'll be what it'll be.

btw Payne puts his pants on one leg at a time. He has stumbled picking managers (he loved Soehn for years, and Onalfo was a total bust).

[Ajax TFC]

IMO it could easily go one of three ways.
1) Mariner is completely unwilling to adapt and submit to authority, and gets canned before Christmas.
2) Mariner will do anything to keep his job. If this means shutting up and doing what he's told, he'll pretend to like it. He'll make it through the season with a less than horrible, but also less than expected record, and get respectfully let go at the end of the season, with a thank-you message from the club.
3) Mariner tries to comply to keep his job, but is just too incompetent. After a decent but not fantastic preseason, the team putters into the regular season in the same bad form that they ended the last one. After five or so bad results, highlighted by confusing personnel choices, lack of enthusiasm by the players, and lack of control, Mariner gets the boot and Rongen takes over.

All are likely, but if I had to pick one of the scenarios, I would go with the one where he gets canned after the season.

[TFC07]

If TFC start first 10 games bad, then Mariner is gone (like Winter....isn't karma a bitch?! lol)

[West220Side]

Had this discussion with my father the other day, my view was that if our first game away in montreal with all the travelling support ends with a loss, Paul Mariners time will quickly be ticking away. He'll be out with a 0-3 beginning no doubt in my mind. (negativity.)
The first game of the season (away) will set the deadline for him being fired. Wouldn't we all just hate if some how he does well? Starts the first half of the season with us in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in the east?

But I think he'll be out by the summer transfer window, or the first few months if he loses the first game of the season.

[ryan]

I think the Mariner bashing has to end now.

You'll have to swing over to my place and silence me.

SINK THE MARINER!

[Richard]

He could technically fire him now, are we not on a 14-15 game winless streak?

[Shakes McQueen]

If I had my way, zero. But my guess is Payne will give him a chance to dig his own grave first.

- Scott

[__wowza]

this could either swing one way or the other if he starts off losing.

option the first - the FO learns from their mistakes and cans him. calls it a rebuild, rinse and repeat.
option the second - the FO doesn't, he sticks around and they try and hold off hitting the reset button for as long as possible.

again, this requires him losing. what the fuck ever.

[backbeat]

when Payne was asked about his coaching staff for next season he certainly did not ringingly support them.

He said (words to the effect), "I can tell you where one bathroom is - haven't been here more than 5 hours - a little challenging to answer those questions - but i can tell you PM is the coach of TFC - I need a lot more time to spend more time with folks and understand them but we'll take that time."

this to me is a hedge until he takes a few weeks to digest. he in no way said PM is his man for 2013...

maybe i'm just optimistic....

[eustacchio]

Payne has to recognise that PM needs to go.

These are my hopes.

[denime]

Payne has to recognise that PM needs to go.

It wont take long for Payne to realize that.

As soon he finds out that Mariner is scouting Bermuda,Scandinavia and Cyprus,he will give Mariner :facepalm: and leash will get really,really short after that.

[CommradePolski]

But Mariner has been using Messi's agent! This surely means that PM is the man for the job! Amirite? :jester:

[Oldtimer]

Payne has to recognise that PM needs to go.

For sure. If what was up to me, we'd never have to see him or his Bermuda shorts ever again.

Realistically, unless PM is defiant, he'll be given some time....

and who knows? Maybe Payne can teach him how to coach. :D

[Ultra & Proud]

How MLS lays out our schedule will basically be telling of how long Mariner stays. If we get a lot of early road matches and tough match ups at home then it will be tougher for him to stay.

[Canary10]

I think Mariner's fate rests more with how he deals with a new boss than what he does on the pitch to be honest. Can he actually work with someone? His ego is so damn big, I'm not sure he can.

[Oldtimer]

I think Mariner's fate rests more with how he deals with a new boss than what he does on the pitch to be honest. Can he actually work with someone? His ego is so damn big, I'm not sure he can.

He worked as an assistant for the Revs, so he must be able to work with some people, ego aside.

[phonzo]

If he gets lucky enough to even start - perhaps even canned during pre-season play :p

[Canary10]

He worked as an assistant for the Revs, so he must be able to work with some people, ego aside.

Much harder to go from running your own show to having a boss. But yeah, there must be someone on this earth he could work with....

[CommradePolski]

He's pretty good with a whiskey bottle im sure....

[starter]

I voted Fired before first game which is mostly wishful thinking.

[ag futbol]

Gerry Dobson speaking to fan 590 (in his opinion / paraphrasing): "50/50 chance mariner starts the season, if he does... good luck to him"

Looks like he's already on death watch.

[Canary10]

Beyond PM's lack of ability to play in the sandbox, due to his enormous ego that seems inversely proportionate to ability, there were some other flags Payne raised that lead me to think things like philosophy, ability to collaborate etc will end up being his undoing rather than on-pitch results (if we even get that far):

-Payne said the best MLS coaches are teachers (interesting take, I hadn't thought of that but makes sense). Mariner is no teacher.
-He mentioned attacking, possession football as his preference. Mariner may be some things, but an advocate for possession football is not one.
-He saaid Rongen will involved in decisions on the first team. I'm sure PM will see that as stepping on his toes.

I think Dobson may be right...

[ryan]

Gerry Dobson speaking to fan 590 (in his opinion / paraphrasing): "50/50 chance mariner starts the season, if he does... good luck to him"

Looks like he's already on death watch.

Yes!

[trane]

^ More good news.

[Belfast_Boy]

Gerry Dobson! it's like it's from the mouth of Zeus!

[ag futbol]

For anyone wondering where I got that, it's the second audio link on the page below half way down this article from John Molinaro

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/11/29/ml_tfc_toronto_fc_kevin_payne/

[Gazza]

I can't believe no one voted games 27-34. That seems the most likely. But i am a conformist.

[Richard]

Gerry Dobson speaking to fan 590 (in his opinion / paraphrasing): "50/50 chance mariner starts the season, if he does... good luck to him"

Looks like he's already on death watch.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4kkvnIEoc1qfelxu.gif

[BuSaPuNk]

I'm thinking its a 50/50 chance he even starts the preseason. After a week or two in the drivers seat Payne will see what kind of gaffer he has and if its not what he wants for the club he's gone.

[T-boy]

What would anybody think of Mariner being coach at the club, and they install a new manager/head coach above him? His record as a COACH is actually very good, so no reason to think he wouldn't continue to do a good job in that roll. Would anybody think that's a good idea? Or, I guess, would you want him out of the club altogether?

[ryan]

What would anybody think of Mariner being coach at the club, and they install a new manager/head coach above him? His record as a COACH is actually very good, so no reason to think he wouldn't continue to do a good job in that roll. Would anybody think that's a good idea? Or, I guess, would you want him out of the club altogether?

Gone.

We need to clean up the mess. You cannot do so unless you clean up the whole mess.

[McBrace]

I'm not sure he is actually a good coach. What has he done that would deem him a good coach?

I don't think he would accept another role at this point.

[T-boy]

I'm not sure he is actually a good coach. What has he done that would deem him a good coach?

I don't think he would accept another role at this point.

Just the fact of 3 consecutive MLS finals with NE when he was coach there. I think that definitely counts for something!

[McBrace]

I wonder if that has more to do with the actual manager vs an assitant coach. You need to consider that the league was also much different then. I guess it counts for something, but not much in my eyes.

[denime]

What would anybody think of Mariner being coach at the club, and they install a new manager/head coach above him? His record as a COACH is actually very good, so no reason to think he wouldn't continue to do a good job in that roll. Would anybody think that's a good idea? Or, I guess, would you want him out of the club altogether?

I want him OUT OF CLUB,CITY OF TORONTO,ONTARIO AND CANADA

[Flipityflu]

...or, he could have a good run and we do well next season and he gets a 3 year extension.

[Oldtimer]

Just the fact of 3 consecutive MLS finals with NE when he was coach there. I think that definitely counts for something!

Assistant coach, not head coach. There is a huge difference.

He might be fine as an assistant (provided he isn't undermining the head coach).

[Sweeper]

Predict a mediocre first half of the season and his firing once the playoffs are slipping out of reach. Shortly after the halfway point.

[Belfast_Boy]

I'm not sure he is actually a good coach. What has he done that would deem him a good coach?

I don't think he would accept another role at this point.

agreed, just because he was an assistant coach doesn't mean anything. a fan poll at Argyle said they wouldn't want him back. i'm not a fan.

here's my favourite Mariner story. a bunch of supporters went to Columbus for the last game. the weather was terrible, cold and rainy. they sat right behind the bench and cheered on the team all game. he didn't turn around once or acknowledge them. classy guy.

[T-boy]

Assistant coach, not head coach. There is a huge difference.

He might be fine as an assistant (provided he isn't undermining the head coach).

I didn't say HEAD coach, I just said coach.

My argument here is that he has some some successful history as a team coach, so was wondering if there is sufficient justification to let him play to his own strength, which may well be in coaching players, not being head.

[tfcleeds]

here's my favourite Mariner story. a bunch of supporters went to Columbus for the last game. the weather was terrible, cold and rainy. they sat right behind the bench and cheered on the team all game. he didn't turn around once or acknowledge them. classy guy.And ultimately, that's an example of why I just don't see the relationship between Payne and Mariner being a long-term one. Hey, I don't know much about Payne, how can we at this point, but at first glance it just seems like there's just too much of a personality clash. While I realize during a game, Mariner's priority is paying attention to events on the field and not acknowledging fans, it serves to highlight his personality, or at least that which he seemed to display last season. It seems the polar opposite of Payne, the guy who allowed two lost DC fans in Columbus to board the team bus back to their hotel.

[MisterMacphisto]

All Payne needs to do to make his decision is go to this video, (http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/07/13/paul-mariner-conference-call-july-13-2012) and listen from 5:25 - 6:10.

It's one of the best lines in the modern era. :facepalm:

[Super]

Things can change, but I have it on good authority that firing Mariner before the start of the season is not an option currently on the table. I personally think that if we go no wins in the first 5 games, PM will have a problem.

And so will TFC and Payne. Mariner is not responsible for TFC - Payne is responsible. Unless Payne feels that Mariner is 100% the right man for the job, he needs to replace him. Mariner fucks up = Payne fucks up.

[Ajax TFC]

I never actually listened to that one before. I'm surprised this one liner at 7:07 has never come up before: "this reeaally helps us to improve the defensive situation". Like wait, hold on a second, how does trading a good DM for a RM/Striker improve the defense???

[jabbronies]

What would anybody think of Mariner being coach at the club, and they install a new manager/head coach above him? His record as a COACH is actually very good, so no reason to think he wouldn't continue to do a good job in that roll. Would anybody think that's a good idea? Or, I guess, would you want him out of the club altogether?

The big question for m is what was his relationship with Steve Nicol like? What is actually like not being the big boss? We saw with Winter that he was a snake and did what he could to get that power. Can he be second in command after being the big cheese?

[Cashcleaner]

And so will TFC and Payne. Mariner is not responsible for TFC - Payne is responsible. Unless Payne feels that Mariner is 100% the right man for the job, he needs to replace him. Mariner fucks up = Payne fucks up.

Good point, Super. The onus for this team's success is all on Payne now, and I think that once he identifies a problem, it won't be long before it's dealt with. Not saying Marine gone is a sure thing, but it would probably make more sense if Payne brings in somebody else before the season starts up if a coaching change is to be made at all.

[v00d00daddy]

He HAS to be fired prior to the start of the season unless you think he's your guy and you're gonna stick with him longer term (at least the whole season).

If Payne has reservations about him already (and he damn well should based on all of Mariners conduct regarding on field product) then he should be looking for Mariners replacement and better find it quick.

How can we be okay with Mariner coaching 10 games and then being fired? What's the point of that?

[tiberius]

He HAS to be fired prior to the start of the season unless you think he's your guy and you're gonna stick with him longer term (at least the whole season).

If Payne has reservations about him already (and he damn well should based on all of Mariners conduct regarding on field product) then he should be looking for Mariners replacement and better find it quick.

How can we be okay with Mariner coaching 10 games and then being fired? What's the point of that?

Bang on! Payne should send Mariner on an important two month scouting trip to Iceland and get to work with Rongen and DeKlerk to get the organisation ready for the next season. If Payne can't find the coach he wants in the next few weeks, either guy can caretake for him as long as needed... How could this possibly be worse than starting the season with short pants, monkey dance???

[Technorgasm]

succeed so I don't have to hear another fucking "need a full season" excuse.

I keep thinking that we are all a bunch of crying babies that can't take a worst ever season. Crying for the results.

But I was wrong. I would hope that the majority of the Rpb faithful crave stability and the glimpses of a solid base to which improve upon. .... But how little improvement is the majority willing to accept.

I support PM, but crave NICOL to be on our sidelines.

[v00d00daddy]

I keep thinking that we are all a bunch of crying babies that can't take a worst ever season. Crying for the results.

But I was wrong. I would hope that the majority of the Rpb faithful crave stability and the glimpses of a solid base to which improve upon. .... But how little improvement is the majority willing to accept.

I support PM, but crave NICOL to be on our sidelines.

Well...it was obvious that the majority were not willing to accept the slow pace of improvement under Winter. But apparently people ARE willing to accept Mariner's equally appalling results.

So who knows anymore?

You support PM? I can only assume that you support him because you crave stability.

If PM is supposed to be what brings stability....then I'd rather see this club fold over watching PM bring "stability"

[Section 117]

Stability for the sake of stability is wrong. They need to can the bloody drunk as he is by far the most useless arrogant coach of the modern era. He makes Maradona look like Sir Alex Ferguson.

Hoping for a retread like Nichol or any other successful coach MLS from the early years will be another step back. BTW there has to be a reason why Nichol has been hired since he was canned by New England. IMO the reason Nichol hasnt been in the running for any other position is the hoof ball tatics wont work over the course of a season. What TFC needs is a coach who is a teacher and a leader of men. Someone who believes in attacking soccer and pressing high up the field. PM is none of the above.

I believe that Payne will let Mariner hang himself, unfortunately it will probably mean another lost season for us.

[TOBOR !]

I keep thinking that we are all a bunch of crying babies that can't take a worst ever season. Crying for the results.

But I was wrong. I would hope that the majority of the Rpb faithful crave stability and the glimpses of a solid base to which improve upon. .... But how little improvement is the majority willing to accept.

I support PM, but crave NICOL to be on our sidelines.

I remember that you stood by PM from the outset, but then got very quiet during the 14 game winless streak (is that the stability you refer to ?).

You may have found your voice again, but for how long remains to be seen.

[TOBOR !]

Just the fact of 3 consecutive MLS finals with NE when he was coach there. I think that definitely counts for something!

I think this adds to the legend of Steve Nicol. Imagine, success at a club despite PM as your devious, backstabbing assistant.

Had NE begun to slide while PM was there no doubt he would have arranged to replace SN.

[Oldtimer]

I think this adds to the legend of Steve Nicol. Imagine, success at a club despite PM as your devious, backstabbing assistant.

Had NE begun to slide while PM was there no doubt he would have arranged to replace SN.

No doubt, unless Nicol is a good friend.

Not sure that Nicol is the ideal future coach of TFC, although he certainly deserves respect, and I would support him if he came.

[Technorgasm]

I remember that you stood by PM from the outset, but then got very quiet during the 14 game winless streak (is that the stability you refer to ?).

You may have found your voice again, but for how long remains to be seen.

I think that he, and the team can do better.

if PM is the guy to do it, great, if not, great, I stand behind him as he is our man currently. .
Exciting to see what the off season holds for us.

the statement of 'playoffs, then challenge for the east within the email is a bit troubling. . .obviously soem MAJOR hurdles need to be jumped before we can achevie such things.

[T-boy]

I think that he, and the team can do better.

if PM is the guy to do it, great, if not, great, I stand behind him as he is our man currently. .
Exciting to see what the off season holds for us.

the statement of 'playoffs, then challenge for the east within the email is a bit troubling. . .obviously soem MAJOR hurdles need to be jumped before we can achevie such things.

I think it would be totally unrealistic to challenge for the east within one season. To go from last place team to possibly first is not going to happen within 12 months. But to challenge for the playoffs (so going up 5 places in the east) is definitely within some reach next season.

[maninb]

Originally I gave PM about 10 games before being canned for incompetence...But after hearing Payne say "EVERYONE will be evaluated on merit", I think PM will be gone before the season starts...HOPEFULLY....and please don't bring in a hasbeen like Nicol....

[TOBOR !]

I think that he, and the team can do better.

if PM is the guy to do it, great, if not, great, I stand behind him as he is our man currently. .
Exciting to see what the off season holds for us.

the statement of 'playoffs, then challenge for the east within the email is a bit troubling. . .obviously soem MAJOR hurdles need to be jumped before we can achevie such things.

I respect that you stand behind the man who holds the post, no matter who it is. I also respect that you wouldn't mind it being someone else.

[Canary10]

I think it would be totally unrealistic to challenge for the east within one season. To go from last place team to possibly first is not going to happen within 12 months. But to challenge for the playoffs (so going up 5 places in the east) is definitely within some reach next season.

Just challenging for the last playoff spot would require a bigger turnaround from last year than any team in MLS had this year. We'd need a 30 point improvement - San Jose had a 28 point improvement this year. Not to be negative, but it's really hard to see TFC of all teams doing this, unless Payne truly is a miracle worker.

[T-boy]

Just challenging for the last playoff spot would require a bigger turnaround from last year than any team in MLS had this year. We'd need a 30 point improvement - San Jose had a 28 point improvement this year. Not to be negative, but it's really hard to see TFC of all teams doing this, unless Payne truly is a miracle worker.

Agreed. I was suggesting the same in reply to technorgasm who said that only going for the play offs was "troubling".

Getting into the play-offs next season would be a VERY good season. Winning the conference would indeed be a total miracle!

[trane]

Keeping a manager that is not winning or improving the club, would lead to stability, the team would be stable at the bottom of the standings.

[Derko]

If TFC are successful and Improve, Mariner will not be fired, and if TFC are winning and improve Bozo The Clown can be the coach.

[T-boy]

I'll totally back Mariner up if he starts next season winning and looking like they are trying to play some football (I'll take just winning actually!). I just don't see it happening that way. I would LOVE to be proved wrong, of course.

[glaze]

Perhaps this team isn't far from turning it around. How many games did they lose in the final minutes last season? How many times did they send out a poor lineup due to injuries? I think last year should be considered a complete writeoff. I can see them contending for the playoffs next year, in which case Mariner maybe in line for an extension. Of course that is a lot of off season optimism.

[TOBOR !]

I'll totally back Mariner up if he starts next season winning and looking like they are trying to play some football (I'll take just winning actually!). I just don't see it happening that way. I would LOVE to be proved wrong, of course.

When you find a cause you truly believe in you really stick with it.

[T-boy]

When you find a cause you truly believe in you really stick with it.

So you're saying that if Mariner wins the first ten games of next season, you would still want him out? I think it would be hard to justify!

[TOBOR !]

So you're saying that if Mariner wins the first ten games of next season, you would still want him out? I think it would be hard to justify!

If TFC win their first 10 games I doubt it'll have much to do with Mariner, and yes, I'd still want him out. I've wanted him out ever since Winter was fired. He had as much to do with the team's record anyone, and no doubt only saved himself by testifying against Aron. And not the first time he's resorted to such methods for his own benefit.

A despicable man who I'd prefer to have no association with the club.

[maxpower]

If this is still the same TFC we all know and love ( and all indications say it is), then Mariner will probably be fired a day before the season starts.

[Oldtimer]

If this is still the same TFC we all know and love ( and all indications say it is), then Mariner will probably be fired a day before the season starts.

I think you are totally wrong. Payne will run a very different ship. We're already seeing that with him nixing PM's choices for hoofball players.

[maxpower]

I think you are totally wrong. Payne will run a very different ship. We're already seeing that with him nixing PM's choices for hoofball players.

why keep mariner if he won't allow him to bring in the players he wants? That sounds exactly like something TFC would do. In fact that's what happened with our last coach.

[Oldtimer]

why keep mariner if he won't allow him to bring in the players he wants? That sounds exactly like something TFC would do. In fact that's what happened with our last coach.

Because in a well-functioning organization, decisions like this are made by a GM who has experience in building a great team, rather than by a guy early on in his coaching career. I'm sure Payne is listening to Mariner and what he wants before he gets guys, he'll just apply some sober second judgement to Mariner's requests. Unlike with Mariner and Winter, Payne is not trying to undermine Mariner. He can just fire him if he wants, but it looks like he's giving him a chance to prove himself with a better constructed squad than Earl Cochrane could throw together.

It's a paradigm shift for many of us. I'm familiar enough with how DC was run, and Payne is a very straightforward guy. He will support his coach 100% until and unless he fires him. The sleezy backroom politics that we've seen for 6 years is not how he runs things.

[ag futbol]

why keep mariner if he won't allow him to bring in the players he wants? That sounds exactly like something TFC would do. In fact that's what happened with our last coach.
I think it's something less than that. If he is staying (I still have my doubts he'll be around long), it means that he has restrictions and can't just push things through like he did previously.

No more trading first round draft picks for players that could be had for free in six months, no more signing defenders with average profiles for 400k. If he wasn't being overseen by uncle Tom and the clueless BOD previously, these never would of happened in the first place. Every manager operates with some level of restriction. It's not just a free-for-all. These restrictions are in place for the good of the club, and for a certain extent to save the management team from their own stupidity.

He can still sign his players but they have to fit within the club's philosophy. That's how any organization should operate.

[maxpower]

Because in a well-functioning organization, decisions like this are made by a GM who has experience in building a great team, rather than by a guy early on in his coaching career. I'm sure Payne is listening to Mariner and what he wants before he gets guys, he'll just apply some sober second judgement to Mariner's requests. Unlike with Mariner and Winter, Payne is not trying to undermine Mariner. He can just fire him if he wants, but it looks like he's giving him a chance to prove himself with a better constructed squad than Earl Cochrane could throw together.

It's a paradigm shift for many of us. I'm familiar enough with how DC was run, and Payne is a very straightforward guy. He will support his coach 100% until and unless he fires him. The sleezy backroom politics that we've seen for 6 years is not how he runs things.

Well fair enough. I'm not very familiar with Paynes work In D.C. apart from the results United got on the field, which is a pretty good record to say the least.I just personally think that Mariner is by far the worst coach we've ever had. Not just because the results on the field were absolute crap, but we played terrible football 99.9 percent of the time, we made some incredibly dubious trades, and he was also a fucking disaster with the Media.

I'm just saying I don't see any reason why not to fire him and have Payne bring in someone has actually managed a an MLS team and did well with them. It's not like we lack the funds to make up for the fact that this team is completely undesirable right now.

[DangerRed]

Anyone thinking that Mariner is on the verge of being fired needs to take a deep breath and relax. In my opinion, it's not happening anytime soon and we'll still go into the preseason with PM at the helm.

[Canary10]

My prediction is Mariner will be replaced, and it will have nothing to do with results on the pitch, and everything to do with his and Payne's ability to work together.

[rowjimi]

I also feel he will be replaced. Sometimes it is just a matter of the new guy wanting his own people in place. Shared philosophies and ability to work towards that goal becomes more important than an individual.

[T-boy]

I think you are totally wrong. Payne will run a very different ship. We're already seeing that with him nixing PM's choices for hoofball players.

Have I missed something? Nixing what players?

[Ultra & Proud]

Have I missed something? Nixing what players?
Those free transfer ones they offered contracts to in Scandinavia (and Cyprus?) were nixed. Before Payne arrived Mariner said these guys were proven pros who played internationally and would be a plus to the team. Then last week the Larsun Sun article had Mariner saying that they decided to go in another direction and thusly pulled those offers. What changed? Only one thing as far as I know.

[T-boy]

Those free transfer ones they offered contracts to in Scandinavia (and Cyprus?) were nixed. Before Payne arrived Mariner said these guys were proven pros who played internationally and would be a plus to the team. Then last week the Larsun Sun article had Mariner saying that they decided to go in another direction and thusly pulled those offers. What changed? Only one thing as far as I know.

I didn't see that article at all. I thought I'd read that Mariner said that the Scandanavian transfers involved small transfers fee's, so that stopped them happening.

[Ajax TFC]

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/12/06/tfc-has-first-pick-in-mls-re-entry-draft

TALKS STALLED?It seems talks between a number of potential European targets and TFC have hit a snag.
“There’s some (back and forth) about transfer fees and stuff, which we’re not really preferred to go any further with because it makes that cap number more than we want to pay,” Mariner said. “We’re still negotiating that.”
A month after Mariner crossed the Atlantic in search of Scandinavian talent, the club will need to get past a few final hurdles if Mariner’s travels are to become fruitful.
“Some players were free that we didn’t want to take in the end,” he said when pushed about potential transfer fees. “Some players had some time left on their contracts so you can understand why clubs want us to pay for them. It’s just the way it is in football negotiations and we’ll have to try and work through it.”
I don't see where it says that all the offers had been pulled, although I can believe that he could be lying about the transfer fees. But I do find it suspicious that all the players they really wanted came with transfer fees, and those that don't have transfer fees suddenly aren't good enough. Like, do you not check that sort of stuff before putting contracts on the table?

[reggie]

Why is this clown trying to sign players jus before a new GM hired anyway,im sure PAYNE nixed the deals.

[Super]

If Payne is nixing deals made by Mariner, then WTF is the point of having Mariner as our head coach? Fire the guy. Or not. But if Payne wants to keep him around, then it's on his head.

[T-boy]

Oh, I see now. I did read the correct things originally, but people are defining things the way they see them.

I guess it IS coming up to the "silly season" where we are gonna read things like "I just saw my best mate who said the his dad saw Mariner talking to Pele and he's coming to come out of retirement and play for TFC" and things like that. This time of the year is always super entertaining :D

[Belfast_Boy]

My prediction is Mariner will be replaced, and it will have nothing to do with results on the pitch, and everything to do with his and Payne's ability to work together.

lets hope so, he's a joke. it was obvious before he landed here and he confirmed it with his most recent statements. the sooner he's out of T.O. the better. anyone that thought he was the right guy or still thinks so should keep quiet and learn about the game before talking.

[Ajax TFC]

If Payne is nixing deals made by Mariner, then WTF is the point of having Mariner as our head coach? Fire the guy. Or not. But if Payne wants to keep him around, then it's on his head.
because it's not the coach's job to sign players. It's the coach's job to make the players that he is given perform. The GM should not be tied to only getting players if the coach wants them. His job is to build a team that's good and then get a coach that can manage that squad. Mariner is lucky if he gets a chance to prove that he can do that.

[T-boy]

because it's not the coach's job to sign players. It's the coach's job to make the players that he is given perform. The GM should not be tied to only getting players if the coach wants them. His job is to build a team that's good and then get a coach that can manage that squad. Mariner is lucky if he gets a chance to prove that he can do that.

That's route to disaster, and also the route that led TFC to its current situation. I'd prefer the coach to get the players, select them, AND train them. I don't see any value of one guy finding players, then giving them to somebody else, who may not like them. I say give Mariner all power, or none, don't go half way. Too many cooks, and all that.

[ag futbol]

That's route to disaster, and also the route that led TFC to its current situation. I'd prefer the coach to get the players, select them, AND train them. I don't see any value of one guy finding players, then giving them to somebody else, who may not like them. I say give Mariner all power, or none, don't go half way. Too many cooks, and all that.
Both models are in place in world football, I don't think one is superior to the other. More than anything else, the wrong people / bad management led TFC to its current predicament.

[maxpower]

What do GM's really do that couldn't just be handled by the manager? we really only have that position because it's a staple in American sport. It's very rare you have that position in Europe.

[19Barrett19]

Tomas Rongen will replace mariner before he can get into his clown suit and jump on the sidelines. I am liking the silence for the first time in a long time. Reason being is i strongly feel that KP is working to get mariner out and set up the team for Rongen to take over.....

[Ajax TFC]

That's route to disaster, and also the route that led TFC to its current situation. I don't see any value of one guy finding players, then giving them to somebody else, who may not like them. I say give Mariner all power, or none, don't go half way. Too many cooks, and all that.
The reason this system failed the first time was because Mo Johnson was the one in charge of making it work, not someone who knows what they're doing like Payne. The advantage to this system is that the coach isn't a super important cog, and can easily be replaced if he doesn't do well.

I'd prefer the coach to get the players, select them, AND train them.
The problem with that is that you need someone who is good at a whole bunch of things. If you get a manager who's good at finding good players but can't coach them well (Winter IMO), you loose a bunch of games and have to bring in a new manager who will then want to bring in his own players, style, etc. If you get someone who's a great game day coach and tactician, but not a great evaluator of talent (or at least not budget talent), he'll fail because the squad isn't good enough.

The system right now is ideal. You have one person, who knows what they're doing, build the squad, and get someone who can manage a good squad to coach it. If that person fails, than you can replace them without blowing apart the entire team.

If Mariner is allowed to be the coach, he should be grateful that he's given the chance to show what he can do with the squad he's given. He's already shown over the last three transfer windows that he's a lousy evaluator of talent

[Canary10]

European managers having large coaching staffs in support. Except for game day, managers aren't doing that much actual coaching. We don't have that kind of money here for that. I think the GM/head coach model may work better in MLS.

[ryan]

If Payne is nixing deals made by Mariner, then WTF is the point of having Mariner as our head coach? Fire the guy. Or not. But if Payne wants to keep him around, then it's on his head.

Probably saving the Mariner firing for their public push of SSH sales.

[v00d00daddy]

Probably saving the Mariner firing for their public push of SSH sales.

Yeah maybe....but if they had fired him prior to the renewal deadline date I would have renewed.

They lost me as a SSH because keeping Mariner is a huge sign that they have no idea what they're doing. And if Payne keeps him he's a fool.

[ryan]

Yeah maybe....but if they had fired him prior to the renewal deadline date I would have renewed.

They lost me as a SSH because keeping Mariner is a huge sign that they have no idea what they're doing. And if Payne keeps him he's a fool.

More expensive to return now for you. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

;)

[Initial B]

Yeah maybe....but if they had fired him prior to the renewal deadline date I would have renewed.

They lost me as a SSH because keeping Mariner is a huge sign that they have no idea what they're doing. And if Payne keeps him he's a fool.
Not that I expect him to, but what if Mariner coaches the team to a respectable season just out of the playoffs and the players all like him. What then?

Perhaps a better way to frame the question is: What characteristics and traits would Mariner have to exhibit for you to consider him to be worthy of keeping around?

[v00d00daddy]

More expensive to return now for you. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

;)

Nah. It's only more expensive for me to return as a SSH. I can still go to several games next year for less than the price of a Seasons seat. That is, if they give me reason to go. No longer will I feel obligated to go watch shitty football just because I have tickets.


Not that I expect him to, but what if Mariner coaches the team to a respectable season just out of the playoffs and the players all like him. What then?

Perhaps a better way to frame the question is: What characteristics and traits would Mariner have to exhibit for you to consider him to be worthy of keeping around?

It's pretty simple.

He would have to have his players playing simple, attractive, attacking football.

He would also have to value talented skill based players as much as he does the hard working, gritty players.

I'm quite confident that neither of those things are happening.

He basically has to be the opposite of himself.

Bizzaro world Mariner. LOL

[T-boy]

It's pretty simple.

He would have to have his players playing simple, attractive, attacking football.

He would also have to value talented skill based players as much as he does the hard working, gritty players.

I'm quite confident that neither of those things are happening.

He basically has to be the opposite of himself.

Bizzaro world Mariner. LOL

It's interesting that you don't mention results at all. Do you place attractive football over results?

[Initial B]

^ Remember T-Boy, I mentioned adequate results, say 42 points in the standings, where wins come more than once every two months. If he wins only 1 game in the first two months, I don't expect Mariner will still be here come June.

[v00d00daddy]

It's interesting that you don't mention results at all. Do you place attractive football over results?

It's not that I put attractive football above results...but I'm also not one to say results are the only thing that matter.

I want both.

That doesn't mean I want Barcelona.

I just can't bear to watch the brand of football that mariner employs. And I don't care if he tweaks it for next year because I can't stomach a coach that would employ the tactics and philosophy that he did last year.

The style he played, his player selection, and his justification of it all at the end of the season has made me believe that he is a terrible coach.

[Phil]

Yeah maybe....but if they had fired him prior to the renewal deadline date I would have renewed.

They lost me as a SSH because keeping Mariner is a huge sign that they have no idea what they're doing. And if Payne keeps him he's a fool.

Payne has been on the job for 2 weeks now. Agendas about sales don't factor into it, the guy is just trying to evaluate the structure (or lack thereof) and install his process.

[v00d00daddy]

Payne has been on the job for 2 weeks now. Agendas about sales don't factor into it, the guy is just trying to evaluate the structure (or lack thereof) and install his process.

Oh I get it. My point is that mariner never should have been promoted but when he was, should have been fired at the end of the season.

It Payne is like some people on these boards and thinks Mariner should get the start of the season to prove himself....which (if he fails and he will) will end up having us have to fight from behind again and basically write off another season.

That's unacceptable.

Fire him now.

[Oldtimer]

It Payne is like some people on these boards and thinks Mariner should get the start of the season to prove himself....which (if he fails and he will) will end up having us have to fight from behind again and basically write off another season.

That's unacceptable.

Fire him now.

I would very much like to see Mariner gone, but it's not just the people on this board that thinks he should stay, it's the overwhelming media opinion, and also the view of many U-Sector members. So we need to allow for the fact that there is not a consensus yet and we shouldn't give Payne a hard time for keeping Mariner for now. Eventually everyone will realize the guy in shorts doesn't know what he is doing, and he'll be out the door.

[v00d00daddy]

I would very much like to see Mariner gone, but it's not just the people on this board that thinks he should stay, it's the overwhelming media opinion, and also the view of many U-Sector members. So we need to allow for the fact that there is not a consensus yet and we shouldn't give Payne a hard time for keeping Mariner for now. Eventually everyone will realize the guy in shorts doesn't know what he is doing, and he'll be out the door.

I'd hope that Payne has seen plenty of Mariner while he was still with DC.

As for consensus....the media (for the most part) are so far up Mariners ass it's not funny. And I get that lots of supporters think Mariner should stay.

I just disagree. I disagree so vehemently that I decided not to renew.

I didn't mean to give Payne a hard time. He may still fire Mariner. But if he keeps him for 10-12 games and then fires him...well then he's a fool.

If Mariner starts the year he should finish it. Because his stretch last year is more than enough to know whether he is incapable of playing the type of game Payne wants to see.

It Payne thinks Mariner can do it...so be it. We have no choice but to trust his judgement. And we'll see what happens.

If Payne doesn't think Mariner can do it, fire his ass now.

[Canary10]

I'd hope that Payne has seen plenty of Mariner while he was still with DC.

As for consensus....the media (for the most part) are so far up Mariners ass it's not funny. And I get that lots of supporters think Mariner should stay.

I just disagree. I disagree so vehemently that I decided not to renew.

I didn't mean to give Payne a hard time. He may still fire Mariner. But if he keeps him for 10-12 games and then fires him...well then he's a fool.

If Mariner starts the year he should finish it. Because his stretch last year is more than enough to know whether he is incapable of playing the type of game Payne wants to see.

It Payne thinks Mariner can do it...so be it. We have no choice but to trust his judgement. And we'll see what happens.

If Payne doesn't think Mariner can do it, fire his ass now.

Look at it this way. The off-season, when player acquisition and building the team for next year, is the time when a GM and coach have to work the closest together. What do you think the chances are that Payne comes through that thinking, yeah, this is a guy I can work with?

[v00d00daddy]

Look at it this way. The off-season, when player acquisition and building the team for next year, is the time when a GM and coach have to work the closest together. What do you think the chances are that Payne comes through that thinking, yeah, this is a guy I can work with?

I'd guess slim and none.

But why even go through that process with Mariner.

As the new boss, Payne is more than entitled to can Mariner merely for the fact that he wants to put in his own guy and not a holdover.

Add Mariners dismal record last year....his poor player acquisitions and his preference for ugly football and I think you end up not needing to even sit down with the guy.

Pink slip his ass to Bermuda.

[Phil]

Oh I get it. My point is that mariner never should have been promoted but when he was, should have been fired at the end of the season.

It Payne is like some people on these boards and thinks Mariner should get the start of the season to prove himself....which (if he fails and he will) will end up having us have to fight from behind again and basically write off another season.

That's unacceptable.

Fire him now.

Hindsight, ya Mariner shouldn't have been put there IMO. I would guess with Payne being there and being upfront, its causing chaos with the rats in the ship. Lets see what shakes out...

[Canary10]

I'd guess slim and none.

But why even go through that process with Mariner.

As the new boss, Payne is more than entitled to can Mariner merely for the fact that he wants to put in his own guy and not a holdover.

Add Mariners dismal record last year....his poor player acquisitions and his preference for ugly football and I think you end up not needing to even sit down with the guy.

Pink slip his ass to Bermuda.

I think he needs a little time to figure out if Mariner can come in line with his vision and way of working. The next month ought to be interesting.

[T-boy]

I find it kinda....two faced of supporters....who last season were all fine with Winter staying, even though the results were pretty bad And now, same with Mariner, except some want him gone. Really, supporters should be consistent at least, shouldn't they? Winter was given the benefit of the doubt that if he was given a whole off season that he could impove things. Should Mariner not be given the same opportunity? Discuss?!

[Canary10]

I find it kinda....two faced of supporters....who last season were all fine with Winter staying, even though the results were pretty bad And now, same with Mariner, except some want him gone. Really, supporters should be consistent at least, shouldn't they? Winter was given the benefit of the doubt that if he was given a whole off season that he could impove things. Should Mariner not be given the same opportunity? Discuss?!

I thought from day 1 Mariner was a bad idea. He was a complete 180 in terms of what he was trying to do, and isn't a manager consistent with the four pillars. And he's never been a good coach anywhere he's been.

I do think now Payne should take some to figure it out.

[T-boy]

I thought from day 1 Mariner was a bad idea. He was a complete 180 in terms of what he was trying to do, and isn't a manager consistent with the four pillars. And he's never been a good coach anywhere he's been.

I do think now Payne should take some to figure it out.

For me personally, I didn't like winter OR Mariner as appointments. I thought Winter was a bad idea given he had no MLS experience (or any head coach experience come to that!). I also didn't like what he said in his first interviews, although other people DID seem to like what he said. But I shut up and and just waited to see what happened. I didn't initially like Mariner as I never think its a good idea to promose somebody internally. BUT, he started well, so I got behind him. But for both, they had very poor end of season's (Winter didn't win any of the last 5 games, I think it was?) and similar for Mariner, just a longer period of games. So really, we are mostly in the same position as we were last year.

I just think it gets to a time that we can either kick and scream and throw tantrums all the time, or just wait and see what happens. I get why Voodoo is so angry, but we just have to wait at this time. There's no real point in getting all worked up at this time of the year.

I have faith in Payne, and I don't think he's an idiot at all, I think he;s very sensible and has a good brain. If he thinks Mariner can do a job, I'll get behind that. I don't think there's much point in fighting against that at this time, just like there was no point in fighting against Winter staying on this time last year.

[Oldtimer]

I didn't mean to give Payne a hard time. He may still fire Mariner. But if he keeps him for 10-12 games and then fires him...well then he's a fool.



I followed DC in MLS before TFC. just ask any DC supporter, they respect Payne deeply... and he's anything but a fool.

[T-boy]

I followed DC in MLS before TFC. just ask any DC supporter, they respect Payne deeply... and he's anything but a fool.

Exactly Oldtimer. At this time, I think I would respect Payne if he stuck by Mariner. Payne isn't MoJo, or Anselmi - he seems to know what he's doing. His track record at DC is excellent, anyways. If he sticks by Mariner, and I respect Payne, then I'm not going to argue against it right now.

We, as fans, may think we know Mariner and that he's useless, but how can you possibly argue against a guy who's had a much experience in the MLS as Payne has?

[Canary10]

For me personally, I didn't like winter OR Mariner as appointments. I thought Winter was a bad idea given he had no MLS experience (or any head coach experience come to that!). I also didn't like what he said in his first interviews, although other people DID seem to like what he said. But I shut up and and just waited to see what happened. I didn't initially like Mariner as I never think its a good idea to promose somebody internally. BUT, he started well, so I got behind him. But for both, they had very poor end of season's (Winter didn't win any of the last 5 games, I think it was?) and similar for Mariner, just a longer period of games. So really, we are mostly in the same position as we were last year.

I just think it gets to a time that we can either kick and scream and throw tantrums all the time, or just wait and see what happens. I get why Voodoo is so angry, but we just have to wait at this time. There's no real point in getting all worked up at this time of the year.

I have faith in Payne, and I don't think he's an idiot at all, I think he;s very sensible and has a good brain. If he thinks Mariner can do a job, I'll get behind that. I don't think there's much point in fighting against that at this time, just like there was no point in fighting against Winter staying on this time last year.

That's pretty much how I feel about it too, although I do strongly think Mariner is the wrong guy. I'm just not prepared to hang my support on that now that Payne is there. Hiring a soccer knowledgeable President was, in my view, priority number one and everything else will flow from that. Let him do what he needs to do.

[T-boy]

That's pretty much how I feel about it too, although I do strongly think Mariner is the wrong guy. I'm just not prepared to hang my support on that now that Payne is there. Hiring a soccer knowledgeable President was, in my view, priority number one and everything else will flow from that. Let him do what he needs to do.

Did you renew your season tickets, canary?

[jloome]

I find it kinda....two faced of supporters....who last season were all fine with Winter staying, even though the results were pretty bad And now, same with Mariner, except some want him gone. Really, supporters should be consistent at least, shouldn't they? Winter was given the benefit of the doubt that if he was given a whole off season that he could impove things. Should Mariner not be given the same opportunity? Discuss?!

Seriously?

Are you just trolling, T-Boy, because you've had this debate with all of us a thousand fucking times now. This entire statement is full of exagerration to absurd proportion, which is generally regarded as a cheap debating stunt. It is UNCIVIL to keep making arguments that have already been closed as "agree to disagree." It just heats people up, particularly those of us who find it uncivil.

Discuss?

No, I'm not gonna discuss that. I'll tell you what: if someone sticks a fork in a light socket, and when it feesl really bad, makes up their mind to do it again, there's nothing sensible people can do. Because that's about as logical as rehashing these same tired, divisive and absurd arguments that Paul Mariner has somehow been hard done by, and then expecting any of us to wade into it with you. If you don't get it by now, well, it's your light socket. If you don't see where the differences and issues lie by now between abject reality and what this series of questions proposes, none of us can help you; you might as well be a kid with a fork, by a light socket.

Jesus tap dancing christ. I feel like old now, and it's only 8:38 am Alberta time. Thanks for that.

Here's a suggestion: let's close a thread on an argument has had us at each other's throat for about a month. I thought we already did that with the whole "outsider's perspective" thread.

[trane]

^ I support Payne, and if he leaves Mariner in I will be ok with it, but the "overwhelming media opinion" is simply wrong. Mariner had plenty of games to show his worth last year, and he proved that he is worth little. NOW people learn, and MAYBE he improves, but it is highly unlikely and the statistically better change of success is replacing him.

BUT again I am willing ot give Payne the benefit of the doubt, as he is someone with a proven track record with DC and has not given me any reason to distrust him with TFC. Despite no liking the fact that Mariner was hired, as I saw him as part of the problem, I also gave him the benefit of the doubt untill he proved me write.

[Canary10]

Did you renew your season tickets, canary?

Ha, yeah, I forgot we were discussing that. I did in the end right at the end of the deadline day. Decided they looked serious about hiring a President and that was enough of a step in the right direction to consider that part of my "three tests" for renewal satisfied.

[T-boy]

I'm not the one that's fighting tooth and nail about everything right now! I've done that before and its like beating your head against a brick wall! I think its time the people who are shouting and screaming for Mariner to go, to give it a little rest and sit back and see what happens. That's all I'm saying. It's Xmas time, drink some sherry and see what happens eh? That's all I'm saying! Voodoo is a passionate guy, obviously, but we had to go through all this last off season, so lets just go through it again. I just think its not the time to lose your shit over Mariner still being here or not. :drinking:

[T-boy]

Ha, yeah, I forgot we were discussing that. I did in the end right at the end of the deadline day. Decided they looked serious about hiring a President and that was enough of a step in the right direction to consider that part of my "three tests" for renewal satisfied.

Cool, good for you. I like the fact that you had your "tests" that you wanted to see met, and you stuck by that. I hope for you that it pays off next season :)

[spark]

I find it kinda....two faced of supporters....who last season were all fine with Winter staying, even though the results were pretty bad And now, same with Mariner, except some want him gone. Really, supporters should be consistent at least, shouldn't they? Winter was given the benefit of the doubt that if he was given a whole off season that he could impove things. Should Mariner not be given the same opportunity? Discuss?!

The only reason I would have ever been ok with Winter staying on was because the season was over by May and knowing TFC they need 3 months just to do a draft of a job posting. It would have been an opportunity to (unfortunately) change things up, but take the time to do it right. Shaking up the entire club just so the team could still be crap IMO was a dumb move and caused more instability.

I don't think you can compare Winter to Mariner at all or their situations. Winter came in here in January and probably didn't have a clue what the football was really like here until he was standing on the sidelines in Vancouver. Mariner has been here for over a decade and has been in MLS since 2004 (?), not to mention he'd been with the club for a year and a half - he should not have required any time to figure things out or build, he knew the team, players etc ... and should have known what was needed to get the job done.

The one thing IMO we should be consistent with is demanding this team cannot be a place where you learn on the job (edit with the first team anyway or organization as a whole, obviously U17 or assistants, ok fine). Winter/Mariner both IMO are not qualified to be leading this club and their CVs do not reflect they are capable of turning around the worst team in the league to a contender. TFC has been like this since day one - a place where you are allowed to learn while we (supporters) pay for your education. I'm happy with Payne because finally there is someone there that we don't need to say "well we need to wait and see, maybe he'll work out, maybe he won't - we just don't know, we have to be patient!" - Payne has a tangible track record we can all pull from and say YES this guys has done this and been there, it makes sense for him to be our President. The head coach, IMO needs to be the same and I'm tired of waiting for something to happen from coaches that have never been able to prove it yet in their career. Again - TFC should be looking for someone with tangible records of success (IMO as always haha), that have actually lead senior teams to at the very least respectable positions in the table.

[Canary10]

Cool, good for you. I like the fact that you had your "tests" that you wanted to see met, and you stuck by that. I hope for you that it pays off next season :)

Luckily they actually did it, or I would have been really fucking pissed!

[T-boy]

The only reason I would have ever been ok with Winter staying on was because the season was over by May and knowing TFC they need 3 months just to do a draft of a job posting. It would have been an opportunity to (unfortunately) change things up, but take the time to do it right. Shaking up the entire club just so the team could still be crap IMO was a dumb move and caused more instability.

I don't think you can compare Winter to Mariner at all or their situations. Winter came in here in January and probably didn't have a clue what the football was really like here until he was standing on the sidelines in Vancouver. Mariner has been here for over a decade and has been in MLS since 2004 (?), not to mention he'd been with the club for a year and a half - he should not have required any time to figure things out or build, he knew the team, players etc ... and should have known what was needed to get the job done.

The one thing IMO we should be consistent with is demanding this team cannot be a place where you learn on the job (edit with the first team anyway or organization as a whole, obviously U17 or assistants, ok fine). Winter/Mariner both IMO are not qualified to be leading this club and their CVs do not reflect they are capable of turning around the worst team in the league to a contender. TFC has been like this since day one - a place where you are allowed to learn while we (supporters) pay for your education. I'm happy with Payne because finally there is someone there that we don't need to say "well we need to wait and see, maybe he'll work out, maybe he won't - we just don't know, we have to be patient!" - Payne has a tangible track record we can all pull from and say YES this guys has done this and been there, it makes sense for him to be our President. The head coach, IMO needs to be the same and I'm tired of waiting for something to happen from coaches that have never been able to prove it yet in their career. Again - TFC should be looking for someone with tangible records of success (IMO as always haha), that have actually lead senior teams to at the very least respectable positions in the table.

Excellent post and just the answer I was looking for.

[Phil]

The only reason I would have ever been ok with Winter staying on was because the season was over by May and knowing TFC they need 3 months just to do a draft of a job posting. It would have been an opportunity to (unfortunately) change things up, but take the time to do it right. Shaking up the entire club just so the team could still be crap IMO was a dumb move and caused more instability.

I don't think you can compare Winter to Mariner at all or their situations. Winter came in here in January and probably didn't have a clue what the football was really like here until he was standing on the sidelines in Vancouver. Mariner has been here for over a decade and has been in MLS since 2004 (?), not to mention he'd been with the club for a year and a half - he should not have required any time to figure things out or build, he knew the team, players etc ... and should have known what was needed to get the job done.

The one thing IMO we should be consistent with is demanding this team cannot be a place where you learn on the job (edit with the first team anyway or organization as a whole, obviously U17 or assistants, ok fine). Winter/Mariner both IMO are not qualified to be leading this club and their CVs do not reflect they are capable of turning around the worst team in the league to a contender. TFC has been like this since day one - a place where you are allowed to learn while we (supporters) pay for your education. I'm happy with Payne because finally there is someone there that we don't need to say "well we need to wait and see, maybe he'll work out, maybe he won't - we just don't know, we have to be patient!" - Payne has a tangible track record we can all pull from and say YES this guys has done this and been there, it makes sense for him to be our President. The head coach, IMO needs to be the same and I'm tired of waiting for something to happen from coaches that have never been able to prove it yet in their career. Again - TFC should be looking for someone with tangible records of success (IMO as always haha), that have actually lead senior teams to at the very least respectable positions in the table.

Nail on the head with this. Sums it up perfectly.

[v00d00daddy]

I have no problem with Payne deciding to keep Mariner.

I just expect that he make that decision based on the belief that Mariner is the man for the job, long term (at least the whole season).

I don't want to see Payne giving Mariner 10-12 games and then realizing he's not the guy.

If Payne knows this league as well as he does (and every indication is that he does) then he should know if Mariner is up to fulfilling his vision.

Fire him now or keep him for an entire season.

If Payne fires Mariner after a poor start (like some people have suggested) then Payne's very first assessment and decision as it pertains to TFC will have shown to be wrong.

And in the process we will likely have lost another season.

I'm not okay with that.

Progress is the only measuring stick for me. A movement upwards. Not the playoffs. Not a "competitive" team. All I wanna see is progress.

And Mariner leading this team at the start of the season only to fall short in the first third of the schedule (which is what I think will happen) and then getting fired is the furthest thing from progress that I can see.

I could be wrong. Payne may have absolute faith in Mariner which could translate into a great season. Who knows? If that happens I'll happily say I was wrong. Payne obviously knows what he's doing.

I just don't see TFC finding success with Mariner.

I think Mariner is garbage. He epitomizes everything I hate about football and if we, in Canada, ever wanted to depict the philosophical reasons why we suck at football, I'd say Mariner is a pretty good poster boy for the project.

[jloome]

I have no problem with Payne deciding to keep Mariner.

I just expect that he make that decision based on the belief that Mariner is the man for the job, long term (at least the whole season).

I don't want to see Payne giving Mariner 10-12 games and then realizing he's not the guy.

If Payne knows this league as well as he does (and every indication is that he does) then he should know if Mariner is up to fulfilling his vision.

Fire him now or keep him for an entire season.

If Payne fires Mariner after a poor start (like some people have suggested) then Payne's very first assessment and decision as it pertains to TFC will have shown to be wrong.

And in the process we will likely have lost another season.

I'm not okay with that.

Progress is the only measuring stick for me. A movement upwards. Not the playoffs. Not a "competitive" team. All I wanna see is progress.

And Mariner leading this team at the start of the season only to fall short in the first third of the schedule (which is what I think will happen) and then getting fired is the furthest thing from progress that I can see.

I could be wrong. Payne may have absolute faith in Mariner which could translate into a great season. Who knows? If that happens I'll happily say I was wrong. Payne obviously knows what he's doing.

I just don't see TFC finding success with Mariner.

I think Mariner is garbage. He epitomizes everything I hate about football and if we, in Canada, ever wanted to depict the philosophical reasons why we suck at football, I'd say Mariner is a pretty good poster boy for the project.

I agree with this ..... to 99%.

My 1% is a rule change: we consider that Payne isn't really treating Mariner as a head coach any more so much as a "field coach" -- in other words, a traditional Euro coach role, like Carver had.

My optimistic side says a good leader can look at a guy like Mariner and admit it's possible a great former striker simply doesn't, by default, have a good handling of other positions and the rest of the team, and that he might delegate the coaching roles more this year.

Payne knew who to bring in at D.C. and basically put a player with no coaching experience in charge of carrying that out in Olsen. Perhaps his real strength in finding players in D.C. is that he's tactically intelligent -- so he's the one who's actually making the tactical and roster decisions and Mariner is just directing the coaches, and probably only really handling the attackers.

In other words, Payne is more a "Manager" in the mold of an English manager than a "club president" who just runs interference with the front office. It makes more sense that that's the case from D.C., where he was reknowned for his lack of patience with politicians over the stadium issue, but was pretty much loved on the soccer side.

I could live with a quieter, less involved Paul Mariner who taught attackers how to actually hit the net. If that's what he's best at, maybe that's what we get. And he keeps the figurehead title in this league, where people see it differently than a "head coach" is seen in England, where people know it's the number two or three job.

[ag futbol]

I think Mariner is garbage. He epitomizes everything I hate about football and if we, in Canada, ever wanted to depict the philosophical reasons why we suck at football, I'd say Mariner is a pretty good poster boy for the project.
I think that puts it together

[TOBOR !]

I find it kinda....two faced of supporters....who last season were all fine with Winter staying, even though the results were pretty bad And now, same with Mariner, except some want him gone. Really, supporters should be consistent at least, shouldn't they? Winter was given the benefit of the doubt that if he was given a whole off season that he could impove things. Should Mariner not be given the same opportunity? Discuss?!

Really ? I'm one of those supporters. In Winter I saw a man trying to deploy a style/philosophy/culture (call it what you want) that was difficult to learn (apparently). The start of the 2012 season didn't match the end of 2011, or the CCL run. Something had to be wrong. Something that could be sorted out in time. We'd seen glimpses of what he was working towards.

Bringing in Judas Mariner and his tactics has moved us back to a pre-2007 state. Sure Winter was losing, but there was optimism and potential (at least as far as I was concerned). Mariner is just plain losing. Nothing about him makes me think he'll be able to do otherwise.

That's the difference in my mind, so it's not hipocrisy really, is it ?

[Richard]

Next year is already a lost season, making playoffs would be a mircle considering the turnaround needed which has never happened to this degree. The only way i see next year a succes is that a new coach gets the whole year to setup what they want, worst thing that could happen is PM being fired midseason. Im mostly pessemistic because of our 3 broken designated players, we have to much capspace tied up for the risk. We all no PM will get sacked, better to do it now and start the "rebuild" now.

[T-boy]

Really ? I'm one of those supporters. In Winter I saw a man trying to deploy a style/philosophy/culture (call it what you want) that was difficult to learn (apparently). The start of the 2012 season didn't match the end of 2011, or the CCL run. Something had to be wrong. Something that could be sorted out in time. We'd seen glimpses of what he was working towards.

Bringing in Judas Mariner and his tactics has moved us back to a pre-2007 state. Sure Winter was losing, but there was optimism and potential (at least as far as I was concerned). Mariner is just plain losing. Nothing about him makes me think he'll be able to do otherwise.

That's the difference in my mind, so it's not hipocrisy really, is it ?

Winter was kind of "losing with style", Mariner is just losing, right? Whether you, therefore, think that there is more optimism with Winter than Mariner is the question, I guess? But otherwise, if you looks at results over their whole tenure, there isn't too too much difference (there were some horrendous results under Winter like the Philly 6-2 at home, whereas most of Mariner's loses were by 1 goal, but there were many of them, just like with Winter too!). I am not optimistic at all about Mariner getting results. But at this point, I'm basically saying that as I ended up backing Winter the end of last season (even though I didn't like the guy) I'm going to equally do the same for Mariner now. I'll give the benefit of the doubt "for the time being", and trust Payne that he knows what he's doing. I'm not trying to be a troll, or incite any anger by the questions I'm asking....I'm just trying to ask the right questions! I equally don't like Mariner as much as anybody on this forum, but I'm trying to see past that right now, especially with Payne on board.

[Wull]

We could conceivably go 0-3 in the first 3 games released in the schedule. Does this change the guess for anyone?

[ag futbol]

ahaha, this thread is good for a laugh in retrospect.

[Ajax TFC]

Couldn't be happier to be wrong.

@nfitz's last lost: lol

[Red CB Toronto]

I guess the answer is 0, as the lads report on the 19th and he simply will not be there. I it an interesting choice to make for Payne but one I support knowing who he has given their first opportunities in the past.

[Alonso]

Hey OOOOOh!

I might have guessed and voted right!

Let's see in the morning.....

[Oldtimer]

32% got it right. Shows that we aren't really a good judge of how things work, lol.

[Fort York Redcoat]

pretty simple. how many games before Paul packs up his shorts and heads to Bermuda?


he'll need a little rope to hang himself. I say 7 games and he'll be history!

No rope necessary it seems! Glad they shared our opinion in the end. Let's keep one eye on Bermuda shall we? Maybe invite them for a Feb friendly vs Canada at Skydome?:canada: Just pack it full of peeps in shorts, sand boxes on the sidelines...

[Belfast_Boy]

Ahhhhh glad that's over. Got to say it was a learning experience. Mostly about the football IQ among the fans.

[Canary10]

Just wanted to brag that I said this on December 14. You could tell right from the opening press conference introducing Payne that Mariner was on thin ice.....

"Look at it this way. The off-season, when player acquisition and building the team for next year, is the time when a GM and coach have to work the closest together. What do you think the chances are that Payne comes through that thinking, yeah, this is a guy I can work with?"

And this:

"I think he needs a little time to figure out if Mariner can come in line with his vision and way of working. The next month ought to be interesting."

[Joe Kool]

32% got it right. Shows that we aren't really a good judge of how things work, lol.

This poll was started before Payne hiring though...I bet a 2nd poll after Payne hiring might have been a little different. But really you are right...it's a crap shoot no matter what and we are just throwing the dice hoping to land on a winning roll. The house usually comes out on top though as always. I lost my bet again.

[London]

goodbye ass clown!!!!!!!!!!

[jabbronies]

I'm thinking its a 50/50 chance he even starts the preseason. After a week or two in the drivers seat Payne will see what kind of gaffer he has and if its not what he wants for the club he's gone.

Here it is. Should've ended this thread on page 2!

[starter]

I voted Fired before first game which is mostly wishful thinking.
Seems I was right for once. g:D

[Belfast_Boy]

goodbye ass clown!!!!!!!!!!


speaking of ass clowns..

I wonder what Cathal Kelly will write about this.

[Canary10]

speaking of ass clowns..

I wonder what Cathal Kelly will write about this.

Here you go:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/article/1311776--toronto-fc-coaching-carousel-spins-again-kelly

[Belfast_Boy]

I can officially retire the ship of fools! two out of three are out of the way.

Earl are you nervous?

[Canary10]

I can officially retire the ship of fools! two out of three are out of the way.

Earl are you nervous?

Let's just hope it's not a whole new ship with a whole new set of fools!

[nfitz]

Let's just hope it's not a whole new ship with a whole new set of fools!Given our new head coach's complete and total lack of any experience coaching anything, then surely that we've just hired a whole new set of fools is almost a given.

I suppose we could get lucky, and have found a diamond in the rough ... but I'm not sure how anyone can possibly think that this is a step forward, rather than at best a step sideways. I hope I'm wrong, and as I'll do with any new coach, I'll certainly support them far longer than most of those running from the sinking ship

But I'm perplexed why you'd drop someone who is so new at this he is still crapping orange in the key role, in a market like this where the media is going to pressuring him from day one.

[maninb]

Here you go:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/article/1311776--toronto-fc-coaching-carousel-spins-again-kelly

At least Kelly didn't praiser that moron PM...and I liked his last line...

[Oldtimer]

Given our new head coach's complete and total lack of any experience coaching anything, then surely that we've just hired a whole new set of fools is almost a given.

I suppose we could get lucky, and have found a diamond in the rough ... but I'm not sure how anyone can possibly think that this is a step forward, rather than at best a step sideways.



So, you're saying it was foolish when Payne hired Ben Olsen for DC? Or Petr Nowak? Neither were experienced.

You seem to know nothing about this league, you just know how to lob criticisms at TFC (not that they haven't deserved criticism over the years).

[Alonso]

This poll was started before Payne hiring though...I bet a 2nd poll after Payne hiring might have been a little different. But really you are right...it's a crap shoot no matter what and we are just throwing the dice hoping to land on a winning roll. The house usually comes out on top though as always. I lost my bet again.


Actually this poll was started on the day of Payne's hiring.

After the presser.

[MartinUtd]

Sweet, I was right.

What do I win?

[Joe Kool]

Actually this poll was started on the day of Payne's hiring.

After the presser.

My bad. How time flies...

[nfitz]

So, you're saying it was foolish when Payne hired Ben Olsen for DC? Or Petr Nowak? Neither were experienced. Nowak really? The guy that the Union fired for getting into physical fights with players? I've never seen another MLS team use terms like "gross negligence" and "not allowing the players to have water" before when referring to their head coach in official documents! Surely Nowak is evidence that Payne has hired unqualified coaches before.

Also Olsen did have coaching experience before he was hired as head coach. He had just over a year's experience acting as assistant coach and then interim coach for DC until he was made head coach. So Payne is batting 50%. Or is he - what about Soehn and Onalfo?


You seem to know nothing about this league, you just know how to lob criticisms at TFC (not that they haven't deserved criticism over the years).I don't see the need for a personal attack here. I don't think I've criticized TFC as much as the average person here. And I'm not sure where the comment about the league comes from. I simply have great concerns about Payne, based on how badly that press conference went. It just doesn't seem very professional. For some people professionalism might simply be about what clothes one wears ... but I think it's more about whether one is wearing clothes at all.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I don't see the need for a personal attack here. I don't think I've criticized TFC as much as the average person here. And I'm not sure where the comment about the league comes from. I simply have great concerns about Payne, based on how badly that press conference went. It just doesn't seem very professional. For some people professionalism might simply be about what clothes one wears ... but I think it's more about whether one is wearing clothes at all.

Your "criticism" of Payne's first move for us was vitriolic. We'll see if it shows to be prophetic or hyperbole soon enough.

[nfitz]

Your "criticism" of Payne's first move for us was vitriolic. We'll see if it shows to be prophetic or hyperbole soon enough.Saying "I'm perplexed why you'd drop someone who is so new at this ..." while at the same time saying we may have gotten a diamond in the rough and that I hope I'm wrong is vitriolic? Pessimistic perhaps ... downright optimistic though compared to some of the comments I've seen ...

Though this is hardly his first move. He already fired Cann, hired Califf, Braun, Peralta, etc.

[Fort York Redcoat]

^Nor his first interview. This is his first big move.

If you have a problem with others posts report it. Your comparisons to their anonymous posts don't amount to anything.

Thanks

Back to Mariner...

[Oldtimer]

I love that 3 people voted "0" today. It shows why every poll needs a closing date. :)

[ryan]

I want credit for winning this poll fairly!

[Belfast_Boy]

I want credit for winning this poll fairly!

http://static.fjcdn.com/large/pictures/fe/22/fe227c_382857.jpg

[tiberius]

Given our new head coach's complete and total lack of any experience coaching anything, then surely that we've just hired a whole new set of fools is almost a given.

I suppose we could get lucky, and have found a diamond in the rough ... but I'm not sure how anyone can possibly think that this is a step forward, rather than at best a step sideways. I hope I'm wrong, and as I'll do with any new coach, I'll certainly support them far longer than most of those running from the sinking ship

But I'm perplexed why you'd drop someone who is so new at this he is still crapping orange in the key role, in a market like this where the media is going to pressuring him from day one.

In the past six years, we have had a bureaucratic fool, without much soccer knowledge, blundering along, structuring and making hires, creating a giant, disorganized clusterfuck mess. You now have an experienced soccer professional as president with a long track record, sprinkled with many successes. Good people hire good people. Good people attract good people. It is the organization that Payne builds, and the mindset he instills that will produce results - he needs to build an organization that can work together and pull in the same direction. Short pants, monkey dance was clearly not a team player - he threw his players under the bus so often, you wonder how the laundry guy manage to get the tire tracks off the jerseys in time for the next game. A "trophy coach" is hardly the answer at this point. To call Payne's "new" organization a set of fools or a sinking ship is just plain wrong and unfair at this point. It is way, way too early to be moaning - he saw right through Mariner in a heartbeat and dumped his ass faster than you can say Geovanny Caicedo - now that is progress!! Once he promotes Cochrane to be assistant to the VP in charge of Scandinavian Scouting we will be well on our way...

We may have to put up with another crap season in 2013 before we completely turn the corner, but there is no way we will be watching a circus while eating the shit sandwich that Anselmi has forced us to eat for the last few years... you can take that to the bank.

[nfitz]

We may have to put up with another crap season in 2013 before we completely turn the corner, but there is no way we will be watching a circus while eating the shit sandwich that Anselmi has forced us to eat for the last few years... you can take that to the bank.Maybe we have. But can we really trust the opinion of someone who instead of attacking Mariner on the facts, merely turns to attacking his clothing and calling him names? Surely such schoolyard-level complaints are not necessary and don't further the debate.

[ryan]

http://static.fjcdn.com/large/pictures/fe/22/fe227c_382857.jpg

It's a broken image, but I'll assume it was awesome.

[Belfast_Boy]

yup, just pure silliness.