Monday Nov 19th, 2012 6-7pm (ie 1st session) TFC Town Hall Meeting [Archive]

Rocket Robin

11-19-2012, 10:52 PM

Details of the Town Hall meeting of Toronto FC held
at the Rogers Club Room at BMO Field on Monday
November 19th, 2012 at 6:00pm. This was the first
of the four scheduled meetings to be held tonight
and Wednesday night.

The meeting was called to order at 6:10pm. Broadcaster
Dan Dunleavy was the MC introducing the participants
and taking the microphone around to those who signalled
that they had questions.

Dunleavy makes a joke about attending his first Neil
Young concert tonight (happening at the Air Canada
Centre) so he can get the meeting started.

On the stools at the front:
1. Paul Beirne
2. Paul Mariner
3. Earl Cochrane
4. Thomas Rongen

Dunleavy was going to get right into questions but Mariner
said he'd say a few things first.
- he welcomed us.
- he's excited to be part of this club.
- TFC is a massive club but needs better players.
- they've not abandoned the pillars of playing bright and
attractive soccer.
- the team will be entertaining.
- the preseason will be six weeks starting January 19th.

Man #1 asks: Does the system come first or the players?

Mariner: - says the players decide the system.
- we've got to use their strengths.
- there is room to maneuver. there's a salary cap and
three designated players.
- it's important to keep the DPs injury free.
- some players played too many minutes and too many games.
- there was too much learning on the job.
- we were burning out young players like Luis Silva who
should not have had to play 30 games.
- we should be like Houston who have 15 "go-to" guys.

Man #1 again asks: What will you do in the preseason?

Mariner: the players have been given off season programs.
- they must come back fit!
- they will be going to Florida after starting out at the
Downsview bubble.

Man #2 asks: What about the quote "we only need four players
to be competitive/attractive."?

Mariner: he likes our back five right now.
- he likes our DPs if they are healthy!
- we now need to fill our roster with blue collar guys.
- he's found some in Europe.

Cochrane: from a budget perspective, "Yes" they can fill
their roster of who they need.
- the team will be releasing some other players (besides
the one's they dismissed last week).
- they know they can't overspend.

Man #3 asks: What's the scouting organization for TFC like?

Mariner: we have the budget for scouts.
- down in Mexico when they played Santos Laguna he realized
that the country has 400 pro players out of a population
of millions. TFC can certainly afford 2nd League players
who are only making $20 or $30K.
- he wants English speakers in the back line so they can
communicate but up front it doesn't matter.
- in Central America they have a scout.
- for Europe/Scandanavia they have a scout (Earl Chapple sp?).
- TFC have good scouting contacts because of all the people
Mariner and Rongen know from their previous years working with
other teams.

Man #4 asks: Why was match fitness an issue last year?

Mariner: we should have been much fitter at the beginning of
the year.
- there was then not a lot of training time when the season
got started with them playing two games a week.
- conceding late goals was part of the consequences.

Man #5 asks: How are the new owners (ie Rogers/Bell) effecting
the team?

Beirne: there's been a shift between old owners saying "We never
say 'no' to a GM" to the new owners saying "One goal--more
aggressive."
- the new owners are pushing hard.

Mariner: they are behind us. "We hate losing".
- knows we have to win.

Man #6 asks: How are we keeping the core together?

Cochrane: Yes, we are in that position.
- we map in three, four, and five year locks.
- we factor in age and development.
- we know the new league feature will be less emphasis
on drafts and more on academy development.
- to sustain a team rather than the usual MLS feature of
teams failing and winning then failing because of budget
considerations and recouping costs.
- we must make player development viable as we know some
players will always be leaving.
- Academies will be involved in selling players to other
markets.

Man #7 asks: Milos Kocic (goalie) says he must be Number 1!

Mariner: Stefan Frei should have been #1 last year except for
the injury.
- hopefully when season starts you'll agree with my opinion
when we win.

Cochrane: Kocic is under contract.

Dunleavy notices that Rongen hasn't said anything and wants
him to talk about the Academy except if that's my question?
Why Yes, how timely!

Man #8 (wow it's me Rocket Robin wearing his CSL League
jacket to look more official!)
I say I want to talk about the new KIA Training Centre that
just opened up and ask "Is it yours?" but I say I will cut
them off as I want to outline three incidents in the last
year that brought that into doubt.
1. Academy scheduled to play Montreal Impact Academy on a
Friday but no one could get the lights to work so the game
was postponed and MIA had to drive on to their next game
in Niagara Fallls.
2. The game was rescheduled for the week between the end
of the regular season and the playoffs because it had
playoff implications and this time the field was being used
by four permit holders playing rec soccer and one playing
ultimate frisbee so we had to wait on the coldest night
of the year until they were off.
3. Rogers Community channel was going to broadcast four or
five TFCA games but backed off when they were told they
couldn't dig any holes at Downsview to sink their lightning
rod/grounding rods. Rogers settled on week old Mississauga
games to fill their time slot.

Rongen: The Academy is a vision of the club and is very
important.
- there will be 125 players in the Academy next year.
- there was a transition from operating partly at BMO to
moving to Downsview part way through the year.
- we now have our facilities functioning.
- field space will not be a problem.
- there will be less drafting and more home grown players.
- we are well ahead of other MLS teams in that regard.
- we will be the leaders of Canadian player development.
- we have 90% of the best players in the Greater Toronto area.
- the Academy will develop and sell players.
- we will operate from age 9 and up.

Rocket Robin

11-19-2012, 10:56 PM

continued from last message:

Man #9 (maybe it was a descendent of Lee Van Cleef?): says
he has a Good, Bad, and Ugly summary:
Good as in best event: The game against Los Angeles at Rogers Centre.
Bad--the constant player turnover.
Ugly--from the Toronto Star article:
----the bad trade of Julian de Guzman for next to nothing and the MLS
league office shooting down TFC signing Swedish international
defender Melberg.
Why did TFC have to take a bullet for the league whereas Los Angeles
can get away with everything? Why does the league restrict TFC?

Mariner: Joao Plata is still our player.
- the fans must see that Plata is young but inconsistant.
- it was decided to send him back home to his home club to improve.
- he's coming back in January.
- internationals must be better than "1 in 6" because of international
limits. [I think he was referring to one great game in six total games].
- he can't comment on Melberg.

Cochrane: TFC have established a link with the league and will continue
to do that.
- he won't talk about the past.
- Plata was loaned out for two reasons--it was to continue to develop
AND it was also for financial (salary cap) reasons.

Mariner: while he was in Sweden last week everyone was talking about
Melberg and this incident has helped put TFC on the map over there
because Melberg is an icon in their country.

Beirne: the league wasn't prepared for TFC in 2007 and their fan success.
- TFC was an afterthought after paying their entry fee.
- MLS had a mandate to develop American soccer.
- their success helped bring the other Canadian teams into the league.
- the league has actually now begun to address Canadian development.
- the process has been an evolution that will change in time.

Man #10 asks: Plata. Why sign him then loan him back?

Cochrane: because we started 1-9.
- we didn't want to stagnate his development.
- we then could address problems in the defence with $$$.

Man #10 again: Why cut Academy grads but you didn't play the three of them? Why?
Now they've lost their NCAA eligibility.

Rongen: two players were not good enough. [Cordon and Makabuya]
- the previous regime was overzealous to sign them.
- Lindsay never came back to the level where he was two years ago before having
his injury.
- the team will not sign any Academy players before they can play first team football.
- they won't sign any Academy players this year.
- they will put Academy players in NCAA schools if it will help their development.
- we have enough 'young' players already (eg Silva, O'Dea, Henry, Morgan).

Mariner: we take care of our players even on these cut players.
- it is a cut throat business.

Cochrane: Lindsay cut was the hardest thing he's ever had to do.
- it was gut wrenching--(sniff).

Lady #11 asks: What is the relationship between MLS and CSA and TFC after the dismal
result of Canadian national team qualifying?

Cochrane: there are/will be five Canadian clubs and they have a pivotal role
in Canadian development.
- he's a personal friend of Holger Osiak and knew his plan.
- these teams will be drivers of youth development.
- we also need local clubs to buy in.
- we must be in lockstep to succeed.
- the relationship between MLS and CSA and TFC is good now.

Lady #11 again asks: What about the private Academies?

Rongen: the OSA have extablished for 2014 a long term player development
league rather than relying on local club teams.
- this league will take care of U13,U14,U15,U16 and have the best facilites and
best coaches etc.

Man #12 asks: Youth? You're encouraged by young players but fear then panic and will
not play them?

Mariner: we can only win so many games with 'kids'.
- young players will make mistakes.
- the young need to play games but maybe in other leagues.
- they will eventually come about.

Dunleavy has to stop the meeting (because there will be another group coming in soon).
- He says Wednesday's town hall will be broadcast live on the TFC website.
(Cochrane answers me later that it will probably be the late one)

The meetings over but I corner Paul Beirne to ask three questions:
1. about the Chicago game being bumped in the schedule and then Liverpool takes their spot.
- he answers that it was Chicago who asks for the rescheduling so they could play
an international and then the Liverpool game just fell into place.
[I came home and checked on the Chicago website and found that on that day they did
play Aston villa and lost 1-0].
2. What if TFC doesn't advance to the final of the Canadian Championship when they've
sold tickets to TWO championship games?
- they may end up playing somebody else but not on that midweek night OR they may
end up giving a refund.
3. Fifa dates last year cramped the schedule. This year?
- there will be some FIFA weeks this year too.
- Canada will be in the Gold Cup in July.

We got a TFC Academy notebook on our way out. It's blank.

Rocket Robin
robing@eol.ca

gracos

11-19-2012, 11:14 PM

Definitely appreciate you posting the information, really want to see what TFC actually believes in

jazzy

11-19-2012, 11:20 PM

Wonderful reporting ...........I.myself was under the weather so I couldn't make it............I worry about my local faves...Henry and Morgan....Mariner doesn't exactly seem like a mentor........

AdamAM

11-19-2012, 11:24 PM

All this sounds so promising.. but then I think about how they ACTUALLY ran the club this year (actions speak louder than words) and there's 1 huge, glaring offence that sticks out to me here. When Mariner says "We can only win so many games with kids" WE DIDNT NEED TO WIN ANYMORE GAMES AFTER FUCKING JULY WE WERE OUT OF CONTENTION YET HE INSISTED ON PLAYING THE SAME FUCKING STARTING 11 OVER AND OVER AGAIN. We could have played kids and given them time in the big league, instead we were playing fucking Aaron Maund, Eckersley, Logan Emory all out of position, and we were playing both Hall's which might be some of the worst players I have ever seen at the 1st league level. I feel like I live in fucking North Korea, listening to all this propaganda that says one thing but they do the complete opposite. We will see next year how all this planning and scouting BS turn out, but for now, it's in one ear out the other for me.

TFCwestcan

11-19-2012, 11:39 PM

Great recap, interesting stuff, there has been a ton of negativity around this club of late, of course the off season is the time when one can be positive about what comes next. Shame about Lindsey, some honest answers about the releases. I'll be very interested in who they bring in it sounds like they are journeymen at least.

Joe Kool

11-19-2012, 11:55 PM

Thanks for the recap...good work.

jloome

11-20-2012, 12:36 AM

Thanks for the recap...good work.

Yeah. Nothing in there to inspire any level of increased confidence; in fact, his assertion we need strong journeymen to round out the team is absolutely fucking terrifying. We need two competent, healthy central midfielders who can carry most of the season, to start. We need at least one more forward who doesn't miss three of four chances. We need a central defender pairing. We need a left winger, at the least, and probably more.

Jesus, what a shitshow. Journeymen. Hey! More Nathan Sturgis's (Sturgi?) to inspire confidence! Bring back Nick Garcia!

Richard

11-20-2012, 12:38 AM

Actions speak louder than words. Just get the job done and if not bring in the next set of managers, except keep the philosophy this time.

jloome

11-20-2012, 12:56 AM

http://www.wakingthered.com/2012/11/19/3669294/tfc-town-hall-1-a-personal-timeline

Good blog on the meeting. Tellingly, those commenting note he used the same "1-in-6" comment about Reggie Lambe as Joao Plata.

daner90

11-20-2012, 01:05 AM

Dunleavy was going to get right into questions but Mariner
said he'd say a few things first.
- he welcomed us.
- he's excited to be part of this club.
- TFC is a massive club but needs better players.
- they've not abandoned the pillars of playing bright and
attractive soccer.
- the team will be entertaining.
- the preseason will be six weeks starting January 19th.

Man #1 asks: Does the system come first or the players?

Mariner: - says the players decide the system.
- we've got to use their strengths.
- there is room to maneuver. there's a salary cap and
three designated players.
- it's important to keep the DPs injury free.
- some players played too many minutes and too many games.
- there was too much learning on the job.
- we were burning out young players like Luis Silva who
should not have had to play 30 games.
- we should be like Houston who have 15 "go-to" guys.

All of these things I have highlighted I believe are actually problems that Mariner has created with the way he has run the club in his time here.

He says we need better players but I thought it was his role in the club to bring in all the talent over the past 2 years and frankly he has not lived up to that.

The fact that Mariner has no system at this point is not shocking. I can't even begin to imagine how you run a team with such a lack of a clear direction but I believe it will run us to the bottom of the table again next season.

Everything else about players having to play too many games and too many minutes is the problem of the manager. Mariner's refusal to use any of the academy kids at the end of last season made no sense when he clearly felt we had a lack of the depth on the main team.

Our team doesn't stand a chance with this guy at the helm...

trane

11-20-2012, 06:50 AM

^ I was going to point out much of the same.

TFC is a massive club-that needs better players? What exaclty makes TFC a massive club ???? In football to be considered a massive club you need to win on a consistant basis for years. Making money does not make a you a massive club, it makes you a rich club.

(The moment that I read Mariner say we need better players, I would have asked him, was that not your job?) This club is a joke, and it will stay a joke untill more of us do not take a stance and force massive change.

I am telling you if you love this club do not renew. I will not be politically correct, and pretend that I beleive there are two sides of the coing there are not. You either love this club, and want better and then you do not renew, or you love the idea of having a club, and being a "supporter" and you do renew. I am not going to get into a war over this, I have had this believe for two seasons now, and every day I read their shit reinforces my believe that I did right thing. VOTE FOR CHANGE BY NOT RENEWING.

ag futbol

11-20-2012, 07:07 AM

First off, thank you to Rocket Robin for putting up that summary.
Second, what a load of crap coming from these people. As AdamAM basically said: “it all sounds great, then you think about how they actually managed the club in the past year and think WTF?”
Also, if you start drawing lines between the things they are saying it’s clear they have no idea what they are talking about.

Cochrane: we know the new league feature will be less emphasis
on drafts and more on academy development.
Rogan: we have 90% of the best players in the Greater Toronto area
the Academy will develop and sell players.
there will be less drafting and more home grown players.
they won't sign any Academy players this year.
Mariner: Youth players make mistakes

Spoken like a guy who manages a border line league two club who is endlessly fighting to stop relegation to the conference national. “I want to play kids but they make too many mistakes”. Well no shit Sherlock, that’s because they are inexperienced. Unfortunately, the model you are perpetuating assures that those same players will stay inexperienced and never get the time they need to develop. It also means you’ll never give anyone a chance to prove themselves, and miss out on some great talent.
So I guess in summary I should believe that TFCA is preparing youth for the future, but they are going to leave a whack of age groups for the OSA to develop, not sign anyone to the first team, and not play them if they make mistakes.
Thank god we are so much better off by giving time to Aaron Maund, Jeremy Hall, and Andrew Wiedeman who are not in any way making mistakes, learning on the job, or technically inferior to the academy equivalents.

Oldtimer

11-20-2012, 08:10 AM

Thanks for the summary, gives a really good idea of what went on.

Belfast_Boy

11-20-2012, 08:39 AM

We're fucked!
Mariner is lost.

T-boy

11-20-2012, 12:32 PM

brad

11-20-2012, 12:59 PM

I don't "buy" the stuff about Plata at all. He was VERY consistent in 2011, one of fthe most consistent players we had. So, that definitely isn't his issue. They are obviously covering up and making excuses for whatever has happened with Plata.

If it really went down the way Mariner said, what about all stuff that went on in the media at the time. Paul/Earl swearing up and down that Plata was going nowhere while he was appearing in a press conference with Quito (or whatever it was at the time). It really seemed like Plata moved himself.

That said, I though he was poor this year. Not uncommon for a player to struggle after a breakout year.

__wowza

11-20-2012, 01:34 PM

Mariner: while he was in Sweden last week everyone was talking about
Melberg and this incident has helped put TFC on the map over there
because Melberg is an icon in their country.

great, so in sweden we're the club that screwed with their national hero?

DangerRed

11-20-2012, 02:11 PM

Yikes. Scary times.

TOBOR !

11-20-2012, 02:33 PM

<cribbed from other posts> :

TFC is a massive club but needs better players.

Does the system come first or the players?

the players decide the system - we've got to use their strengths.

First off, none of this drivel surprises me, nor should it you.

Now, these three lines tell me everything I already knew. Mariner said, on the renewal website, that he doesn't believe in having a set philosophy, or style. He says you need to be flexible, depending on the players you have : the players decide the system - we've got to use their strengths.

Well, this seems to be the reason, then, that we need better players. It's not because we're a massive club (because we're not), but rather it's because better players will play better football.

Better players playing better football means Mariner doesn't have to do any managing. No philosophy required.

Brilliant logic, Paul. Let's see how much Barcelona costs.

CommradePolski

11-20-2012, 02:38 PM

Can we setup a @shittfcmanagementsays twitter account?

I have 0 faith in Mariner. Absolutely none.

T-boy

11-20-2012, 03:47 PM

<cribbed from other posts> :

First off, none of this drivel surprises me, nor should it you.

Now, these three lines tell me everything I already knew. Mariner said, on the renewal website, that he doesn't believe in having a set philosophy, or style. He says you need to be flexible, depending on the players you have : the players decide the system - we've got to use their strengths.

Well, this seems to be the reason, then, that we need better players. It's not because we're a massive club (because we're not), but rather it's because better players will play better football.

Better players playing better football means Mariner doesn't have to do any managing. No philosophy required.

Brilliant logic, Paul. Let's see how much Barcelona costs.

I understand what your saying, but the truth of the matter is a GOOD manager is somewhere between Aron Winter's "all system" and Mariner's "players dictate system". Winter would have had a much better start at TFC if he simplified his system knowing that the players he had were not good enough to play anything more advanced. Meanwhile, Mariner has gone the opposite direction and won't commit to ANY style at all.

I'd love a manager who was between the two polar opposites. A manager who SAYS what they want to play, but then also says "but at the moment we don't have the players to play that style, so I'm going to have to change it up until I get those players into the club". To me, that makes the most sense.

I'd bet that Mariner DOES have a prefered style he wants to play, so I would like to hear what that is. If anybody can ask at the Wednesday meeting "In a perfect world, and with the players at your disposal, what would be your prefered formation and style of play for your team?".

Yohan

11-20-2012, 04:06 PM

http://www.wakingthered.com/2012/11/20/3669346/toronto-fc-townhall-paul-mariner-earl-cochrane

Duncan Fletcher's impressions from 2nd meeting

DangerRed

11-20-2012, 04:08 PM

<cribbed from other posts> :

First off, none of this drivel surprises me, nor should it you.

Now, these three lines tell me everything I already knew. Mariner said, on the renewal website, that he doesn't believe in having a set philosophy, or style. He says you need to be flexible, depending on the players you have : the players decide the system - we've got to use their strengths.

Well, this seems to be the reason, then, that we need better players. It's not because we're a massive club (because we're not), but rather it's because better players will play better football.

Better players playing better football means Mariner doesn't have to do any managing. No philosophy required.

Brilliant logic, Paul. Let's see how much Barcelona costs.

Let's also not overlook that Uncle Paul's brilliant "players decide the system" line gives him a perennial, never-exhausted scapegoat. Shit game? "Players decided to play in this system, so I adapted, and look at the bad result." Shit season? "All year I spent adapting the system to the players we have available, and unfortunately, the players weren't that great."

What a tit. Here's another quote worth keeping in mind:

"When the future's architectured/
By a carnival of idiots on show/
You better lie low..."

TOBOR !

11-20-2012, 04:13 PM

I understand what your saying, but the truth of the matter is a GOOD manager is somewhere between Aron Winter's "all system" and Mariner's "players dictate system". Winter would have had a much better start at TFC if he simplified his system knowing that the players he had were not good enough to play anything more advanced. Meanwhile, Mariner has gone the opposite direction and won't commit to ANY style at all.

I'd love a manager who was between the two polar opposites. A manager who SAYS what they want to play, but then also says "but at the moment we don't have the players to play that style, so I'm going to have to change it up until I get those players into the club". To me, that makes the most sense.

I'd bet that Mariner DOES have a prefered style he wants to play, so I would like to hear what that is. If anybody can ask at the Wednesday meeting "In a perfect world, and with the players at your disposal, what would be your prefered formation and style of play for your team?".

Using Winter's route, I think we would have reached success, but would have to bear dire results for a bit (obviously), whereas with a manager who sits between Aron and Paul philosophically (to use your example), success would be reached, but it would take longer to get there (without having to reach such lows). Now, with Paul at the helm, I'd argue that success isn't coming any time soon at all, and what we'll have is a middling squad sitting at or near the playoff fringes. Neither destined for great heights, or lows. Enjoy.

Code Red

11-20-2012, 04:16 PM

Can we setup a @shittfcmanagementsays twitter account?

I have 0 faith in Mariner. Absolutely none.

Amen brother.

Reading the town hall reviews only reaffirms my decision not to renew.

Globetrotter

11-20-2012, 04:37 PM

I don't have comments about the content, but I do thank the poster for taking the time to write all of that and reporting it to us.

ENBSports

11-20-2012, 04:46 PM

I think the most interesting question from last season is the Mellberg issue especially after the comish Garber lied during the MLS All-Star half-time show and said the league had nothing to do with it and that TFC opted out of the deal via their own choice. Thought Mellberg could of changed the culture of the club and make going into 2012 far more positive so whoever axed it, in my view, it greatly hurt the club.

ag futbol

11-20-2012, 04:56 PM

Let's also not overlook that Uncle Paul's brilliant "players decide the system" line gives him a perennial, never-exhausted scapegoat. Shit game? "Players decided to play in this system, so I adapted, and look at the bad result." Shit season? "All year I spent adapting the system to the players we have available, and unfortunately, the players weren't that great."

But the forever odd thing about this line he uses is: did the players we had at our disposal really dictate the system we played?

I think this team was much better suited for a defensive minded 4-2-3-1 or some derivative there of compared to the style Paul Mariner insisted "was just using the players at his disposal". We were playing a flat 4-4-2 and featuring Aron Maund and Terry Dunfield as our central pairing, it was atrocious!

It also ignores that some of his player selection decisions were baffling. He'd play a central defender out of position and then play Eckersley at central defender. How is that players dictating the system? I think it was more like the system took into account our managers limited knowledge and ability to evaluated talent, as well as personal rivalries and small mindedness.

T-boy

11-20-2012, 05:06 PM

Using Winter's route, I think we would have reached success, but would have to bear dire results for a bit (obviously), whereas with a manager who sits between Aron and Paul philosophically (to use your example), success would be reached, but it would take longer to get there (without having to reach such lows). Now, with Paul at the helm, I'd argue that success isn't coming any time soon at all, and what we'll have is a middling squad sitting at or near the playoff fringes. Neither destined for great heights, or lows. Enjoy.

I half agree. I don't think Winter's "this is what we are going to play, end of story" version of events was EVER going to work in the MLS. It needs a deep amount of resources to go that direction. The MLS has so many constrictions that it just wasn't ever going to work (in my opinion). IF it was going to reach success, it would have taken at least 5 years, if not more. And that 5 or more years, means that you have to develop your youth system so that ALL players coming through know the system inherently. It MAY have found success 'eventually', but that's a long time. I don't think ANY sports franchise in the world could go through that much development to get to the results it needs.

Mariner is on the total opposite end in many ways. He doesn't have a "philisaphy" like Winter did, so its not like he's set in stone. But that also means he's going to find it hard to look for players for a image of the team that doesn't exist. You HAVE to have some kind of philosaphy to know where you are going. That's why I'd prefer somebody BETWEEN Winter's way and Mariner's.

I never thought Winter's way was going to work in the MLS. And I equally don't think Mariner's way will work either!

Richard

11-20-2012, 05:19 PM

So what do the players work on in training? No systems at all?

Jesus, pass and move is the simplest soccer can be broken down too, if they cant atleast say there doing that then wtf is Mariner teaching.

This reaffirms the idea he has no idea about tactics and what actually teaching/playing soccer is. If his idea is to let the players play then its no wonder the players look lost, its just so painfully obvious he has no tactical acumen. Put any fan as coach and they will surely look more competent than him.

Fort York Redcoat

11-20-2012, 05:57 PM

Mariner absolved himself of any blame. Any responsibility as well. This team is all about the players now and what they want to do on the day. So, forgive my oversimplifacation but:

Can't Cochrane just ask the players who they want to play with and then we won't need Mariner's services on the sideline?

Accountablility.

Vision.

These inspire patience. We gave that up for results we didn't get. If this is really all we get to decide on how do you re-align your expectations to allow time for success?

Mariners full season? Winters 3 seasons that didn't happen? Mo's 5?

DOMIN8R

11-20-2012, 06:16 PM

Winter didn't get 3 seasons, Pete. He was suppose to. But Tommy Boy ran out of patience. He seems to have oodles of patience for Mariner though.

T-boy

11-20-2012, 07:47 PM

Winter didn't get 3 seasons, Pete. He was suppose to. But Tommy Boy ran out of patience. He seems to have oodles of patience for Mariner though.

I wouldn't say that! If Mariner hasn't got results within the first 2 months of next season I'm sure he will be given the boot too. Both Winter AND Mariner were/have been given too much time though. In football, if you can't turn around results withint 6 months, you then never will. Both couldn't do it, both should be shown the door quicker. I'd be a brutal GM! :p

cmonyoureds

11-21-2012, 11:50 AM

I wouldn't say that! If Mariner hasn't got results within the first 2 months of next season I'm sure he will be given the boot too. Both Winter AND Mariner were/have been given too much time though. In football, if you can't turn around results withint 6 months, you then never will. Both couldn't do it, both should be shown the door quicker. I'd be a brutal GM! :p

Who knew Roman Abramovich was lurking around here under the "T-boy" alter ego?.....

T-boy

11-21-2012, 11:58 AM

Who knew Roman Abramovich was lurking around here under the "T-boy" alter ego?.....

:p

It's an interesting debate really. And it all comes down to "expectations". Chelsea are expecting to 1. challenge for the Champions League and 2. WIN the premiership. On current form, they will definitely do neither. I feel sorry for Di Matteo, but can also see where Abramovich is coming from. I don't think roman ever wanted Di Matteo as manager in the first place though, so this is his first chance to get rid of him, and he has.

As far as TFC are concerned the expectations are different. In terms of the football club, they want immediate success. In terms of the supporters groups, they want long term success. I think the "average fan" want both long AND short term. Personally, I think TFC should be aiming for both short AND long term, and I think its a reasonable expectation to achieve both.

So, that is where I respectfully disagree with the "Winter supporters", I mean those who are saying that 'Winter would have found success eventually, but TFC would go through a while of no success in between'. I think TFC CAN achieve short term success AND long term stable success at the same time. Winter's version wasn't finding ANY short term success. I think the overall Winter route (sticking with a philosaphy) is the right thing to do, but its also possible to get short term success. I think its a perfectly reasonable expectation for TFC.

shwade

11-21-2012, 01:19 PM

sounds familiar...something about the last 6 years.

Fort York Redcoat

11-21-2012, 01:42 PM

As far as TFC are concerned the expectations are different. In terms of the football club, they want immediate success. In terms of the supporters groups, they want long term success. I think the "average fan" want both long AND short term. Personally, I think TFC should be aiming for both short AND long term, and I think its a reasonable expectation to achieve both.

So, that is where I respectfully disagree with the "Winter supporters", I mean those who are saying that 'Winter would have found success eventually, but TFC would go through a while of no success in between'. I think TFC CAN achieve short term success AND long term stable success at the same time. Winter's version wasn't finding ANY short term success. I think the overall Winter route (sticking with a philosaphy) is the right thing to do, but its also possible to get short term success. I think its a perfectly reasonable expectation for TFC.

I think it's very magnanimous of you to put faith in the long term success of Mariner without a very tangible stated long term plan. His short term success next year, while possible, is completely unprecedent since he was instated for that very reason this second half of the season.

Again, not saying your POV is wrong or impossible just that it seems like such a long shot given to a group of support that need convincing.

ryan

11-21-2012, 01:48 PM

So, that is where I respectfully disagree with the "Winter supporters", I mean those who are saying that 'Winter would have found success eventually, but TFC would go through a while of no success in between'.

Cause the CCL semis, improving stats with hard luck results and yet another NCC was no sign of short term success?

Anti-Winter folks sure love their blinders.

Get back to me when Mariner achieves none of the above, aka, see you in October.

mdc 77

11-21-2012, 02:11 PM

Why do people on this board keep comparing shite with shite, one flavoured english the other dutch...both shite. Give me a nudge when we are debating someone that provides real hope, with a real plan.

ryan

11-21-2012, 02:21 PM

TOBOR !

11-21-2012, 03:09 PM

In football, if you can't turn around results withint 6 months, you then never will.

Nonsense.

Yohan

11-21-2012, 03:17 PM

I wouldn't say that! If Mariner hasn't got results within the first 2 months of next season I'm sure he will be given the boot too. Both Winter AND Mariner were/have been given too much time though. In football, if you can't turn around results withint 6 months, you then never will. Both couldn't do it, both should be shown the door quicker. I'd be a brutal GM! :p
you need to pay attention to how LA, KC and RSL built their teams under their current managers. Add DC to this list while you're at it.

Ultra & Proud

11-21-2012, 03:33 PM

I was talking with a friend last night and we were discussing TFC stuff and this came up and it was interesting so I figured I'd drop it on here; say next season we get this roster Mariner wants and Cochrane says we can now afford. Then say it works and Mariner is proven to be not day dreaming or straight up lying and he does get the team to play 'attractive' Football (by comparison). Obviously Tika-taka will not happen and the 4-3-3 won't either and really, who cares?, but maybe he implements a style like most decent MLS teams use (DC, Houston maybe) and most importantly, we win. Sure Mariner will still wear shorts (because that matters somehow) and he will still look and act like an obnoxious drunk and I'm sure Cochrane will still come off as a sleazy used car salesman but then what? Does everyone eat their hats (or paper bags) and admit they were wrong?

Now I would give this about a 2-3% chance of ever happening but if it did, it'd sure bring up some interesting conversations.

Edit: in that discussion with my friend we are of 2 opinions; I am for getting a new younger manager and a new President and then ditching the overpaid and/or dead weight on the squad and starting over more or less. He is of the get a new President but keep most everything at status quo because he feels we'll be doomed to more years of shite if we keep rebuilding group. And FWIW I don't care that Mariner wears shorts, looks drunk, or is rude with the media or whatever. I just think he's too old and probably stuck in his ways to last long term here. I am more inclined to have us hire a younger former-MLSer to run the show and let that person and our team grow on the job like RSL and DC did and what Montreal were doing before Crazy Joey stepped in.

Richard

11-21-2012, 03:54 PM

Haha just imagine if PM actually wins, MLSE will look like geniuss next Abramovich who took 6 months to fire the coach after winning.

TOBOR !

11-21-2012, 04:08 PM

I think Mariner thinks that footballing ideas have moved so far away from those of the 70's and 80's that they're fresh again (and everyone's forgotten about them) - so why not give 'em a whirl ?

moralis

11-21-2012, 05:19 PM

Links to tonight's town hall meeting: Starts at 6:00 P.M.

http://www.torontofc.ca/live

Section 117

11-21-2012, 05:46 PM

brad

11-21-2012, 06:01 PM

Auzzy

11-21-2012, 07:21 PM

I am going to the last one and I have a great question for Mariner and Cochrane. I hope they stream that one as well, cause I bet you that Mariner is going to lose his shit when I am done. I hope he challenges me or just makes himself look like the complete ass that he is

I predict the 2nd session tonight will be punchy anyway. Mariner had to act semi-professional during the 1st one since it was lived streamed. He will want to make up for that in the late session.

moralis

11-21-2012, 08:49 PM

Auzzy you were almost right. It almost did get punchy. Not with mariner, but with two fans.

Kristin Knowles ‏@kzknowles (https://twitter.com/kzknowles) Fight at the Town Hall!! OK, no fisticuffs but two fans very close to mixing it up mid question... #TFC

https://twitter.com/kzknowles/status/271424028856709120 (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC&src=hash)

Section 117

11-21-2012, 09:12 PM

cmonyoureds

11-21-2012, 09:36 PM

Auzzy

11-21-2012, 10:07 PM

Section 117

11-21-2012, 10:23 PM

Wow! What was your question exactly?

My question was with your track record as first team coach at Plymouth and here with a 14 game winless streak why should I as a fan have faith in your ability to make this a team that is succesful and I could be proud of.

Then i was interrupted by his fan club (see above) His response do you know what administration is. He goes on to summarize what it is and then. The lads tried hard if we would have had 5-6 more games we could have been saved. His quote as I have this on tape "we (TFC) were only out of game I coached." I shook my head, his response "oh really! I guess you haven't been watching the games."

That arrogant ass, I asked about NY and then Dan Dunleavy took the mic and wouldn't let me follow up. Btw when his fan club cut me off mid sentence. I was told to let him talk as it was good discussion. They are a bunch of douches. What a fucking joke

bones

11-21-2012, 10:42 PM

DoubleUp

11-21-2012, 10:50 PM

I think Mariner thinks that footballing ideas have moved so far away from those of the 70's and 80's that they're fresh again (and everyone's forgotten about them) - so why not give 'em a whirl ?

I think Mariner thinks he is most knowledgeable person in the GTA pertaining to football, I dont think he fully understands the collective footballing IQ of TFC`s fan base.

They really think we are soccer moms.

olo114

11-22-2012, 12:22 AM

My question was with your track record as first team coach at Plymouth and here with a 14 game winless streak why should I as a fan have faith in your ability to make this a team that is succesful and I could be proud of.

Then i was interrupted by his fan club (see above) His response do you know what administration is. He goes on to summarize what it is and then. The lads tried hard if we would have had 5-6 more games we could have been saved. His quote as I have this on tape "we (TFC) were only out of game I coached." I shook my head, his response "oh really! I guess you haven't been watching the games."

That arrogant ass, I asked about NY and then Dan Dunleavy took the mic and wouldn't let me follow up. Btw when his fan club cut me off mid sentence. I was told to let him talk as it was good discussion. They are a bunch of douches. What a fucking joke

I was at today's town hall at 7:45, i really think the way you asked the question made Mariner mad more then anything.

What i got from today's town hall was a different side of Mariner, he is just a very no nonsense kind of guy and if a player is not giving his all on and off the field he will not be playing.

I think especially what he said about Avila was very interesting, we on the outside do not see a lot of what happens with the team beyond what we see on the pitch and the information we gather from unofficial sources.

Since they brought Winter and all those people into the fold last season, i always wondered what was the organizational structure and how will it work, i think today was a clear indication that maybe they have figured out a structure that finally works and is not set up in a way that there is a lot of internal conflict between different factions in the organization

Auzzy

11-22-2012, 12:58 AM

I was at today's town hall at 7:45, i really think the way you asked the question made Mariner mad more then anything.

What i got from today's town hall was a different side of Mariner, he is just a very no nonsense kind of guy and if a player is not giving his all on and off the field he will not be playing.

I think especially what he said about Avila was very interesting, we on the outside do not see a lot of what happens with the team beyond what we see on the pitch and the information we gather from unofficial sources.

Since they brought Winter and all those people into the fold last season, i always wondered what was the organizational structure and how will it work, i think today was a clear indication that maybe they have figured out a structure that finally works and is not set up in a way that there is a lot of internal conflict between different factions in the organization

Sorry that's a pile of crock. We have seen a number of players "not giving their all" but if they're one of Mariner's favourites, they will keep playing no matter how shit they are. Example #1 Jeremy Hall: often lazy going forward, or going back, or lazy in covering or taking any control of his wing. Caused many goals yet Mariner never called him out (unlike a bunch of other guys that got tossed under the bus). Yet Hall played almost non-stop, and Mariner didn't even try someone else there when the season was beyond hopeless.

Example #2: Aaron Maund. Played out of position, but often not doing much or trying very hard. He would go through whole games barely making a tackle, yet he would play 90 minutes almost every time. There are more examples.

Mariner is "no nonsense"? Sorry, he is a whole pile of nonsense specifically about himself. After a dismal 2nd half to the season, he cannot identify a single mistake he made personally? (In the first Town Hall session tonight.) That's a massive load of nonsense. The guy would not survive any half-decent job interview spouting that kind of bullshit. Absolutely unacceptable. You can't improve if you can't identify and admit to your own faults.

I don't know how Section 117 asked the question or whatever, but Mariner gets mad about all kinds of bullshit minor issues. Not just tonight. The guy is so full of himself it's unbelievable. 59 years old, minimal head-coaching experience & minimal success at that, but he claims "I'm very good at what I do" w/o in any way backing that up?

shimsha2005

11-22-2012, 02:22 AM

That was me asking the question.. This was one big farce, he didn't even answer the question nor did Earl.

The idiot who interrupt said Mariner was coached by Sir Robson, what the fuck does it matter he is a lousy coach and Dan Dunleavy cut me off and will not let me ask another question....

I am sad I finally realized they (FO) are the most arrogant piece of trash I have ever had the joy of being in the room with. We are just a dollar sign to them. Fuck them all I hope they all rot

I was at this townhall. This guy was 100% planted there to argue with the first person to question Paul Marnier. Then another old english man stood up to ask a question saying how good of a coach Paul is. This guy was also a plant. These tactics are shameful. I felt like i was walking into a cult. Everyone was extraordinary nice to welcome you but wont let you say your mind.

Im sorry this happened to you. Bro, all I say was a bunch of people sucking the FOs d*ck during that town hall. If you were going to renew, I hope the townhall discouraged you. I SAW A lot of ppl upset about the questions and horsesh*t answers.

No answer why we have 5 wins. No question about how Paul B told a fan on twitter that we can remove you off the list of renewals because of his frustrated tweet (he should've offered good customer service (like other companies do on twitter, not tell him to f off) and offered to come into the office to talk so he can answers his questions). Sob story by Paul Mariner saying he supports the team of the city he was born in even though they suck balls. Someone asking a question about a player that hasnt played for two seasons (I dont know, who cares, apparently he did), someome asking for free player tix to away games (said he has been to 15 away games, saw us lose 10 in a row on the road, yo bro, are you serious Wendy? Why, Those nuggets be crispy like I've never seen) someone asking, eh hey guys gives me three things you judge your success on and they all say things that overlap (i hated this question personally, some may love it), this guy above though that got interrupted asked the only question i wanted to be asked and gets ragged out by an insider. Notice both the insiders had british accents, who the f gives a sh*t where Paul played with before or under before. The guy had 15 winless matches in a row. Fire the guy. Not 8-10 games into next season and then screw up the next coach too. Good on you mate for asking that. Im sorry everyone didnt help you. I was just in shock. I wanted to start a slow and loud clap. He mentioned how other ppl shake his hand, and know who he is (who gives a flying f how many ppl shake his hand or know him, Toronto ppl, gta ppl know him of that sh*tty coach who cant win a game, if he was so good why didnt we make him the coach from the first place, why even have winter? Win a game you tw*t before I care who knows you or how many ppl greet you at away games) A bs answer given to why Tom Anselmi was not there (he has no involvement, everything is on Paul Mariner).

No one talked about games being so sh*t you cringe. No one talked about his excuse of us having bad players but we always lose in extra time. No one talked how we had 5 wins this season. No one talked about the empty stands. No one talked about Tfc making bogus twitter accounts and twittering bs. No one talked about why have so many canadian players on the team when the count as an international spot if we trade them to the us teams and that montreal and vancouver are patriotic but care more about success so they take this into consideration. Everyone talked about the academy (Im not a hardcore crazy academy knowledge info townhall guy, ok cool, academy, how about we talk about how we came in last place by a margin, what did we get 23 points, out of playoffs in July or something). No one talked to Paul Mariner saying, you suck bro, he even had said, im a very good coach (i think).

This was the biggest joke and shame of my life. F*ck the TFC & FO!

TL;DR: townhall was a bunch of bullsh*t. They planted ppl to interrupt fans. One interrupted a fan complaining about Paul Mariner who even started the question saying no offense.

DoubleUp

11-22-2012, 04:49 AM

It just gets worse with this club, I feel like I am in a bad horror movie.

What kind of demonic covenant, has brought this folly of football upon the city of Toronto???.:reddevil:

brad

11-22-2012, 07:44 AM

So glad I didn't go to this gong show..

spark

11-22-2012, 07:51 AM

So glad I didn't go to this gong show..

No shit, that why I keep referring back to the first one. I had my fill then and learned all I needed to know about what kind of BS is spun by these yahoos.

Section 117

11-22-2012, 08:11 AM

I realized that the majority of TFC fans are conditioned to expect mediocrity. Last night no one tried to hold him accountable for anything. He kept blaming injuries. I was cut off from asking my follow up question. It was a joke. I was going to ask what he did for the last year and a half and how the majority of the players brought in are of his doing and yet we are the worst team in the MLS with 0 success.

PM has 0 track record as a head coach and yet he thinks he is very good at what he does. That is a load of shit. The only good thing is that next year at this time he we will be gone and we get to restart all over again

brad

11-22-2012, 08:17 AM

I watched the first one online, and was amazed at how gentle people were. It made me wonder if they per-screened questions before handing the mike out.

ensco

11-22-2012, 08:18 AM

What kind of demonic covenant, has brought this folly of football upon the city of Toronto???.:reddevil:

The controllinmg owner of the team did not care about the team. To the extent the owners thought about it, it's some sort of management training ground for people so that they can "learn" lessons that can be applied to their "real" teams.

We'll see if Bogers is any different, it's too soon to say. The Anselmi "promotion" was kind of a sidestep of the issue.

If Bogers are not different than Teachers, then it is over.

ryan

11-22-2012, 09:20 AM

If Bogers are not different than Teachers, then it is over.

Not really a bad thing.

PAOK17

11-22-2012, 09:31 AM

This is precisely why I completely avoided these Town Hall meetings. It would have made me throw a chair at them. How you guys even kept any composure is beyond me. I do however feel like writing to Tom about my concern of PM's mental health and delusions. Seriously someone who has never succeeded in what he does but thinks he is good at it can't possibly be of sound mind.

Maybe we should speak their corporate language instead. What was on Paul Mariner's resume, as a head coach, that gives them so much confidence that they found the right man? Or in the sports business, where fans/supporters are just customers to the franchise, is it really wise to talk down to them?

Ultra & Proud

11-22-2012, 09:42 AM

They planted ppl to interrupt fans.

Or maybe instead of people always having conspiracy theories on how the FO is deceiving the fan base it could just be a bunch of English older guys who support Mariner because they actually remember him from playing in England?

Example; I have some friends who are older British guys (Scottish, Northern Irish) that are SSHs and are 50+ that have no problems with Mariner as they feel he should get a shot and they recognize that our roster was crap and what wasn't crap was injured. They actually know who Mariner is and have seen him play so he will get leeway from them. Probably doesn't hurt he is British too.

Point is that speculating that they put plants in and then having people throwing their arms in the air over our 'evil' FO is just f*cking ridiculous.

PAOK17

11-22-2012, 10:00 AM

olo114

11-22-2012, 10:06 AM

I was at this townhall. This guy was 100% planted there to argue with the first person to question Paul Marnier. Then another old english man stood up to ask a question saying how good of a coach Paul is. This guy was also a plant. These tactics are shameful. I felt like i was walking into a cult. Everyone was extraordinary nice to welcome you but wont let you say your mind.

Im sorry this happened to you. Bro, all I say was a bunch of people sucking the FOs d*ck during that town hall. If you were going to renew, I hope the townhall discouraged you. I SAW A lot of ppl upset about the questions and horsesh*t answers.

No answer why we have 5 wins. No question about how Paul B told a fan on twitter that we can remove you off the list of renewals because of his frustrated tweet (he should've offered good customer service (like other companies do on twitter, not tell him to f off) and offered to come into the office to talk so he can answers his questions). Sob story by Paul Mariner saying he supports the team of the city he was born in even though they suck balls. Someone asking a question about a player that hasnt played for two seasons (I dont know, who cares, apparently he did), someome asking for free player tix to away games (said he has been to 15 away games, saw us lose 10 in a row on the road, yo bro, are you serious Wendy? Why, Those nuggets be crispy like I've never seen) someone asking, eh hey guys gives me three things you judge your success on and they all say things that overlap (i hated this question personally, some may love it), this guy above though that got interrupted asked the only question i wanted to be asked and gets ragged out by an insider. Notice both the insiders had british accents, who the f gives a sh*t where Paul played with before or under before. The guy had 15 winless matches in a row. Fire the guy. Not 8-10 games into next season and then screw up the next coach too. Good on you mate for asking that. Im sorry everyone didnt help you. I was just in shock. I wanted to start a slow and loud clap. He mentioned how other ppl shake his hand, and know who he is (who gives a flying f how many ppl shake his hand or know him, Toronto ppl, gta ppl know him of that sh*tty coach who cant win a game, if he was so good why didnt we make him the coach from the first place, why even have winter? Win a game you tw*t before I care who knows you or how many ppl greet you at away games) A bs answer given to why Tom Anselmi was not there (he has no involvement, everything is on Paul Mariner).

No one talked about games being so sh*t you cringe. No one talked about his excuse of us having bad players but we always lose in extra time. No one talked how we had 5 wins this season. No one talked about the empty stands. No one talked about Tfc making bogus twitter accounts and twittering bs. No one talked about why have so many canadian players on the team when the count as an international spot if we trade them to the us teams and that montreal and vancouver are patriotic but care more about success so they take this into consideration. Everyone talked about the academy (Im not a hardcore crazy academy knowledge info townhall guy, ok cool, academy, how about we talk about how we came in last place by a margin, what did we get 23 points, out of playoffs in July or something). No one talked to Paul Mariner saying, you suck bro, he even had said, im a very good coach (i think).

This was the biggest joke and shame of my life. F*ck the TFC & FO!

TL;DR: townhall was a bunch of bullsh*t. They planted ppl to interrupt fans. One interrupted a fan complaining about Paul Mariner who even started the question saying no offense.

Did you ask a questions during the town hall ? if not why not ? You could of simply lifted your hand like everybody else and asked the questions, me and my buddies did that and got our questions answered pretty well

Richard

11-22-2012, 10:11 AM

Anybody in upper management with some knowledge of the game would figure PM knows nothing. He is so full of shit its disturbing, he needs to fuck off and every day it feels like the club is being dragged through hell. How he can say he did nothing wrong during that 15 game winless streak sums it up, even the best managers in the world can give a list of things they want to improve in.

It all comes from the top, Anselmi's only goal is to avoid accountability for this mess. When that is made priority he wil always have the wrong people hired.

TOBOR !

11-22-2012, 10:16 AM

YEAH ! Sorry, but I love reading this shit. It angers me to no end, but it affirms that (a). I've made the correct decision in not renewing my tickets as long as this regime is in place, and (b). many of you aren't far behind.

EastYork

11-22-2012, 10:24 AM

I was at this townhall. This guy was 100% planted there to argue with the first person to question Paul Marnier. Then another old english man stood up to ask a question saying how good of a coach Paul is. This guy was also a plant. These tactics are shameful. I felt like i was walking into a cult. Everyone was extraordinary nice to welcome you but wont let you say your mind.

Im sorry this happened to you. Bro, all I say was a bunch of people sucking the FOs d*ck during that town hall. If you were going to renew, I hope the townhall discouraged you. I SAW A lot of ppl upset about the questions and horsesh*t answers.

No answer why we have 5 wins. No question about how Paul B told a fan on twitter that we can remove you off the list of renewals because of his frustrated tweet (he should've offered good customer service (like other companies do on twitter, not tell him to f off) and offered to come into the office to talk so he can answers his questions). Sob story by Paul Mariner saying he supports the team of the city he was born in even though they suck balls. Someone asking a question about a player that hasnt played for two seasons (I dont know, who cares, apparently he did), someome asking for free player tix to away games (said he has been to 15 away games, saw us lose 10 in a row on the road, yo bro, are you serious Wendy? Why, Those nuggets be crispy like I've never seen) someone asking, eh hey guys gives me three things you judge your success on and they all say things that overlap (i hated this question personally, some may love it), this guy above though that got interrupted asked the only question i wanted to be asked and gets ragged out by an insider. Notice both the insiders had british accents, who the f gives a sh*t where Paul played with before or under before. The guy had 15 winless matches in a row. Fire the guy. Not 8-10 games into next season and then screw up the next coach too. Good on you mate for asking that. Im sorry everyone didnt help you. I was just in shock. I wanted to start a slow and loud clap. He mentioned how other ppl shake his hand, and know who he is (who gives a flying f how many ppl shake his hand or know him, Toronto ppl, gta ppl know him of that sh*tty coach who cant win a game, if he was so good why didnt we make him the coach from the first place, why even have winter? Win a game you tw*t before I care who knows you or how many ppl greet you at away games) A bs answer given to why Tom Anselmi was not there (he has no involvement, everything is on Paul Mariner).

No one talked about games being so sh*t you cringe. No one talked about his excuse of us having bad players but we always lose in extra time. No one talked how we had 5 wins this season. No one talked about the empty stands. No one talked about Tfc making bogus twitter accounts and twittering bs. No one talked about why have so many canadian players on the team when the count as an international spot if we trade them to the us teams and that montreal and vancouver are patriotic but care more about success so they take this into consideration. Everyone talked about the academy (Im not a hardcore crazy academy knowledge info townhall guy, ok cool, academy, how about we talk about how we came in last place by a margin, what did we get 23 points, out of playoffs in July or something). No one talked to Paul Mariner saying, you suck bro, he even had said, im a very good coach (i think).

This was the biggest joke and shame of my life. F*ck the TFC & FO!

TL;DR: townhall was a bunch of bullsh*t. They planted ppl to interrupt fans. One interrupted a fan complaining about Paul Mariner who even started the question saying no offense.
Thats not a bad point. I have spoken to many players and they say most of the time their tickets go unused (each player is allowed up to 4 free tickets per game). I don't get the question that was asked at the town hall, was he asking for Wendy's as well?
Did anyone ask Mariner about how he told off a fan after one match and challenged him outside gate 4?

Wull

11-22-2012, 10:25 AM

Thats not a bad point. I have spoken to many players and they say most of the time their tickets go unused (each player is allowed up to 4 free tickets per game). I don't get the question that was asked at the town hall, was he asking for Wendy's as well?
Did anyone ask Mariner about how he told off a fan after one match and challenged him outside gate 4?

Given what we now know about the circumstances, I think it's time to let that one slide, no?

olo114

11-22-2012, 10:38 AM

I think that in terms of injuries a lot of people are sick of the excuse however if you look at our roster this year, a lot of the moves that where done in last year and in off season where reactions to injuries sustained by our players, One can wonder what wpu;d of been the make up of the team of these long term injuries did not happen and had we had Cann and Dicoy play 2 full seasons

If you think about it we had probably the most CB's on any roster in MLS, Cann, Dicoy, Maund, Henry O'Dea ,Emory, Harden, Aceval

spark

11-22-2012, 10:38 AM

Ultra & Proud

11-22-2012, 11:01 AM

With all due respect to anyone who remembers him from his playing days, that should not be taken into consideration as it has nothing to do with his current job. As a player, your job is to demonstrate your skills on the pitch, play to the way the manager asks, remain fit, put a full effort in training and in matches. None of those skills are directly used when managing. The whole "he was coached by" is such a garbage argument for two reasons. First he was coached 30 years ago and so whatever coaching style was used then, is probably irrelevant to the modern game. Second, he was a player under a coach, so what? Does that make every player that guy has ever coached a credible manager, as well? If that's the case, then I guess every player who went through Manchester United in the past 25 years is probably amazing!

It's like the CHA appointing Kirk Maltby as our head coach for Canada's Olympic team in 2014 because he had been coached by Scottie Bowman.
Totally missed my point. I am not saying this is right. I am not saying I think this way. I said I personally know other people who do think this way. Free world, they can see things as they want and it's no one else's business to tell them otherwise. They like Mariner. That's their choice. They think he's good enough to get a shot because they know of his past. That's also their choice. Should they not support Mariner or ask him 'nicer' questions if they (or people who share their views) wanted to in the town hall because a whole lot of RPB members hate Mariner? No, because it's their choice.

Now does this mean everyone who likes and/or supports Mariner and the FO is a plant? No.

Side note: One thing that I wish people would understand is that incompetence ≠ a diabolical plan to ruin the franchise

Phil

11-22-2012, 11:09 AM

Totally missed my point. I am not saying this is right. I am not saying I think this way. I said I personally know other people who do think this way. Free world, they can see things as they want and it's no one else's business to tell them otherwise. They like Mariner. That's their choice. They think he's good enough to get a shot because they know of his past. That's also their choice. Should they not support Mariner or ask him 'nicer' questions if they (or people who share their views) wanted to in the town hall because a whole lot of RPB members hate Mariner? No, because it's their choice.

Now does this mean everyone who likes and/or supports Mariner and the FO is a plant? No.

Side note: One thing that I wish people would understand is that incompetence ≠ a diabolical plan to ruin the franchise

Very cerebral of you. I have been saying this for some time and completly agree with it - people have their own ideas and outlook on the coach and the decisions. However lots of people only see black & white and will accuse all who don't agree with their point as being an FO shill.

PAOK17

11-22-2012, 11:49 AM

Ultra&Proud, I never accused you of thinking that way. I am just disagreeing with the people you know personally and others who think that way. You're right, they can think anyway they like. Everyone has their right to an opinion. However, some opinions do have more weight than others. When two opposing sides express opinions and only one side uses relevant facts and statistics (anti-Mariner crowd) and others use irrelevant facts (playing history, who his coach was, etc.), which side has a stronger argument? Yes, everyone can express their opinion. How those opinions are supported is the key to be taken seriously. How do you think debate team competitions work?

The anti-Mariner side has expressed through statistics of his coaching history that Mariner is not suited.

I feel that the pro-Mariner side believes that the sample size is too small to make a judgement. So in other words, they don't think he's a bad coach but don't have enough information to say he is a good one, either.

The point that we, the anti-Mariner crowd, are making is that Mariner claims to be a good coach. No one has ever seen such evidence from either side of the debate. Don't say you're good at what you do unless you have some way to back it up. It comes off extremely arrogant and you lose credibility.

Again, the anti-Mariner side asks those supporting Mariner, what has Paul Mariner done as a head coach to make him a GOOD head coach? Not, do you think he will be a bad coach? Not do you think he will be a good coach? Not should we still give him a chance? He says he's good. What gives you confidence that he is indeed good? That's what we're debating here. His self proclamation.

On a side note. If you think BMO was empty this year, just wait and see what happens if the Jays live up to the hype after the big trade and signing they just made. If they are remotely competitive in the summer, the only single game tickets sold will be by former SSH who decide to go to the games they choose.

burlington Red

11-22-2012, 12:18 PM

The question that started the argument in fairness was never going to generate an honest answer, it was more a ploy by the fan to try and get PM to lose his temper in public again.

Phil

11-22-2012, 12:22 PM

shimsha2005

11-22-2012, 02:32 PM

Did you ask a questions during the town hall ? if not why not ? You could of simply lifted your hand like everybody else and asked the questions, me and my buddies did that and got our questions answered pretty well

Granted I should've said something but I held back because I was afraid I would've went on a rant. They weren't answering any questions really, just mitigating their words. So perhaps I should of just commented and not ask a question. Just because I didn't doesn't mean I can't complain. It isn't like politics where ppl say you didn't vote and now you can't complain. Well I'm about to vote and I'm not renewing.

Thats not a bad point. I have spoken to many players and they say most of the time their tickets go unused (each player is allowed up to 4 free tickets per game). I don't get the question that was asked at the town hall, was he asking for Wendy's as well?
Did anyone ask Mariner about how he told off a fan after one match and challenged him outside gate 4?

This is a wendy's restaurant review that is available online. I was asking, did you seriously go to 15 aways games in a season we won 5 games total. Then I kept on going w this inside joke", I thought someone would get, it was late too when i posted. To the gentleman that asked this question, he was also upset that he didn't have the team come to him when the game is done. The team sucks, they are on a team that sucks, they can't win, their coach sucks, career wise they are at the worst part of their life and are sole searching, they really don't want to clap to you after losing every game.

Wendy's review
Wendy's SoNnNnNnN**
By Chris - Feb 3, 2009
This place is BAWLIN' yo. Chicken nuggitz be crispy like you never SEEN. I tasted one and I was like "WHAAAAT! Are you serious Wendy?" Mean girls workin the friers, tho. This one chick wouldn't even let me holla. I was like "please you ugly anyway."

@Ultra&Proud and @Phil. First person to complain about paul mariner and a guy gets up and yells at the guy asking the question. Seems very convenient. Nobody does that. I don't care if you think otherwise. Any normal person would never interrupt someones question to say something to defend a coach that is winless in 15 games. Also, this discouraged everyone from saying anything they wanted to rant about. If the guy wasn't an insider, HE IS THE BIGGEST DOUCHE BAG IN TORONTO. Thus, some torontofc fans are the stupidest fans ALIVE. He interrupted someone on the mic that was the first person to question Paul Mariner. Douche bag TFC FAN!

Don't renew. Go to select games. It'd be tough for me to find myself cheering ever in the south side or in the stadium again. But it will probably happen but not at the point where they can market my/our aura. They sell tickets on the aura that supporters provide. Win a couple of games next year and the aura will return when it shouldn't, they don't deserve it anymore. Where do I buy a Montreal Jersey?

Fort York Redcoat

11-22-2012, 02:40 PM

Where do I buy a Montreal Jersey?

At the banwagonstore. Toronto location.

cmonyoureds

11-22-2012, 03:17 PM

I was at today's town hall at 7:45, i really think the way you asked the question made Mariner mad more then anything.

What i got from today's town hall was a different side of Mariner, he is just a very no nonsense kind of guy and if a player is not giving his all on and off the field he will not be playing.

I think especially what he said about Avila was very interesting, we on the outside do not see a lot of what happens with the team beyond what we see on the pitch and the information we gather from unofficial sources.

Since they brought Winter and all those people into the fold last season, i always wondered what was the organizational structure and how will it work, i think today was a clear indication that maybe they have figured out a structure that finally works and is not set up in a way that there is a lot of internal conflict between different factions in the organization

Disclaimer: I wasn't there. Now,

Not sure Mariner is in any position to get mad at anyone. In fact if he wasn't expecting hostility and wasn't prepared to react properly to it, then he shouldn't be in a position like his. In fact, really, as a no-nonsense guy he should appreciate a no-nonsense approach to his performance review....right?

Which leads me to this. In my book, no nonsense guys who call out others usually have the guts to hold their hands up and say they've screwed up themselves. Still waiting for Mariner to do this.....

I'll bet there's more positive information being spun by "unofficial sources" (ever read a larson article?) than negative. In fact most of the negatives I choose to believe come from people with names I recognize - DeGuz, DeRo etc. (edit: as per Brad's thread, add Cann's name in there)

As per above, I wasn't there so can you elaborate on this new defined structure for me? Thanks.

brad

11-22-2012, 03:18 PM

I am not a fan of Mariner, the stats are not good. Sometimes there are more than stats though, you are right its a tough one to argue on either side, its faith vs facts.

Not trying to defend Winter here, but under our 0-9 start, the stats were damning, but watching the games I did feel like we were not as bad as the stats made us seem based. We felt a bit cursed. With Mariner, I think the stats are actually kind based what I see. I think we are worse than they show under him. Without Koevermans scoring tear (before the knee tear), the picture would look a lot worse.

T-boy

11-22-2012, 03:28 PM

I think it's very magnanimous of you to put faith in the long term success of Mariner without a very tangible stated long term plan. His short term success next year, while possible, is completely unprecedent since he was instated for that very reason this second half of the season.

Again, not saying your POV is wrong or impossible just that it seems like such a long shot given to a group of support that need convincing.

I never said I thought Mariner would bring success......I meant I WANT a manager that can bring short and long term success. I don't think PM is the guy to do that!

T-boy

11-22-2012, 03:30 PM

Cause the CCL semis, improving stats with hard luck results and yet another NCC was no sign of short term success?

Anti-Winter folks sure love their blinders.

Get back to me when Mariner achieves none of the above, aka, see you in October.

Stats don't tell much of a story of football, really. You can have 99 percent possession, but unless you score, it counts for nothing!

And again, I was anti-Winter cos his results were POOR. And I AM anti-Mariner because HIS reaults are poor! In NO WAY am I saying Mariner will bring success. Please can somebody tell me where I am supposed to have said that?!

PAOK17

11-22-2012, 04:36 PM

Just to be clear, when I mentioned using statistics when forming an opinion of Mariner, I included results. Looking at his overall stats as head coach with Plymouth and TFC PM is 14W, 14D and 30L in 58 matches. That's a winning percentage of 25.5%. That's also a loss percentage of 54.5% and 1.02 points per game. Also, you can't go 14 games without a win and still keep your job in any professional sports league. Injuries could have forced you to have played people off the street and that still wouldn't excuse you. That's just the nature of sports. It's the same reason why Aaron Winter was let go. Even, as some say (myself included) we looked more into the games that we lost and were just unlucky. We still lost them. You can't survive as a coach losing nine in a row.

For those interested by the way, Winter was 18W, 21D and 25L in 64 matches for a marginally better winning percentage of 28.1%. His loss percentage though 39% and our points per game were 1.2. Not good enough if you ask me but Mariner's results somehow make him look good.

T-boy

11-22-2012, 04:43 PM

PAOK17

11-22-2012, 04:48 PM

I agree with your point. I should have been more clear that it all stems from my initial argument of him claiming that he's good at what he does when there is nothing in his history of coaching that would indicate that. If we just stick to TFC then he's 7W, 8D, 15L. So losing percentage is 50% and win percentage is 23.3%. PPG are less than 1. So basically by me wrongfully including his Plymouth stats, I was basically padding his overall stats. His TFC record is even worse!

Canary10

11-22-2012, 04:49 PM

I'm not a Mariner fan, but I think that making a case against Mariner using stats from Plymouth is just wrong. He was manager there when they were entering into administration, and had just previously sold all their saleable asset players before Mariner took over. He was essentially managing a team with both hands tied behind his back. So, its not really valid IMO. No other Plymouth manager has found any success since Mariner either, and its a particularly hard situation there. They only just kept the football club going.

so, please use the stats from this last season at TFC (which are justification alone for firing Mariner) but don't use Plymouth as proof of anything as I don't think that's entirely fair.

Don't totally disagree with this point, but you can get a glimpse into how he manages a football club, his tactics, etc. There was nothing he did there that makes me think he could be okay, but just got dealt a bad hand. I'd say he did badly with a band hand, as opposed to he did the best he could with a bad hand. Know what I mean? And the way he managed there is the way he's managed here so far.

For once it would be nice to have a coach with a good record of having done something, as opposed to, well he has a bad record but there are excuses for it. Or he has no record (in Winter`s case).

Ultra & Proud

11-22-2012, 04:55 PM

I think Mariner's approach was all wrong more than anything else. I agreed at first to dumb down the system as our players were mostly lost. And at first it worked. Can't argue that. The losses afterwards I could give a crap about but as the season progressed, even with injuries and shit roster, wouldn't it have made sense to at least try to incorporate something of this attacking system he consistently mentions as being his plan for 2013? If he has a plan that is. That's one thing I never got.

DoubleUp

11-22-2012, 07:31 PM

It would have made me throw a chair at them. How you guys even kept any composure is beyond me. :cheers:

jloome

11-22-2012, 07:55 PM

I'm not a Mariner fan, but I think that making a case against Mariner using stats from Plymouth is just wrong. He was manager there when they were entering into administration, and had just previously sold all their saleable asset players before Mariner took over. He was essentially managing a team with both hands tied behind his back. So, its not really valid IMO. No other Plymouth manager has found any success since Mariner either, and its a particularly hard situation there. They only just kept the football club going.

so, please use the stats from this last season at TFC (which are justification alone for firing Mariner) but don't use Plymouth as proof of anything as I don't think that's entirely fair.

If you read comments from the Plymouth fans about his odd tactical and positional choices, and how he was brought in as an adviser then stabbed the coach in the back and took his job, you wouldn't think it was entirely unfair, either

T-boy

11-22-2012, 08:03 PM

If you read comments from the Plymouth fans about his odd tactical and positional choices, and how he was brought in as an adviser then stabbed the coach in the back and took his job, you wouldn't think it was entirely unfair, either

Yeah, i've read them on their forum. I've got two friends I went to university with who are Plymouth fans. I've actually been to see Argyll play a couple of times with them (although not in the last couple of years). I did ask them a while back about Mariner and one of them said he didn't mind Mariner, thought he was manager at a really bad time for the club, and because of that couldn't really judge him. He's a big favourite at the club from his playing days though, a bit of a hero. Like this forum, I don't take all that is written about managers at face value, so you have to read in between the lines on the Plymouth forum sometimes.

In the end of the day I think that talking about Mariner's ex-management job, or stats, or whether he looks like Harry Potter or not, is just convoluting the argument. The only "stat" and fact that really counts is that TFC went 14 games without a win under Mariner. That ALONE is justification for Mariner being fired. We don't need to talk about Plymouth, or Potter, or style, or formation, or anything else. Just 14 games, no win.

trane

11-23-2012, 06:31 AM

This is deeper then Mariner. Yes Mariner has to go, but so do the people who so it fit to keep him when Winter was let go, and who so it fit to give him an extension when he did little but lose after the first short stretch

Just a reminder to keep the pressure on. [ People have the right to their opinion, but no logic can support any believe that Mariner should stay there is simply no factual or statistical support for that]

soccer

11-23-2012, 08:12 AM

If he stays, from the first game and throughout the season, no more chanting TFC, no more Dichio song. Only chant "Mariner is a wanker", and keep chanting that until he is gone.

Wull

11-23-2012, 09:08 AM

having been sat with 3 people to keep me from doing anything stupid, I managed not to get involved when the shitshow started but my first thought and my current line of thinking was also that they were planted. Security didn't seem at all bothered despite it almost kicking off, there didn't seem to be anyone on the panel that flinched including dunleavy who was right next to it and given what I saw and overheard later on it's very clear the guy is familiar to Mariner and his associates and that there had been prior discussions among them. I let it sink in for 24 hours before deciding on posting that just in case I let my emotions at the time get the better of me but reading other accounts of it including people taking notes, I'm fully confident that things went down that way after all

Canary10

11-23-2012, 09:16 AM

The worst part about Mariner is that you don't get the feeling that he's with the fans. We're not pulling in the same direction at all. For a club that already has alienated fans, that's bad. So much for All For One.

Ultra & Proud

11-23-2012, 09:17 AM

If he stays, from the first game and throughout the season, no more chanting TFC, no more Dichio song. Only chant "Mariner is a wanker", and keep chanting that until he is gone.
Or how about just not going?

burlington Red

11-23-2012, 09:25 AM

I'm not a Mariner fan, but I think that making a case against Mariner using stats from Plymouth is just wrong. He was manager there when they were entering into administration, and had just previously sold all their saleable asset players before Mariner took over. He was essentially managing a team with both hands tied behind his back. So, its not really valid IMO. No other Plymouth manager has found any success since Mariner either, and its a particularly hard situation there. They only just kept the football club going.

so, please use the stats from this last season at TFC (which are justification alone for firing Mariner) but don't use Plymouth as proof of anything as I don't think that's entirely fair.

You make a fair point there, he was really only given that job ie Plymouth on an interim basis anyway, and when they removed him from managers position they immediately offered him his coaching postion back. By all means criticise the man for last season with TFC, but for people who know nothing about Plymouth to use as a stick to beat PM is wrong.

maninb

11-23-2012, 09:29 AM

We're fucked!
Mariner is lost.

My sentiments EXACTLY....It doesn't matter who we bring in...as long as PM is the manager we're DONE....his complete lack of tactics puts us down a goal before the game even starts....sure we ned more skill in the MF but what does it matter when he wants the ball hoofed up the park from the back almost every time...You could see the frustration on Frings who rarely got to touch the ball because it was flying over his head all the time......Come mid-May we'll be buried in the basement again...

Super

11-23-2012, 09:38 AM

I renewed my season tickets - 6th year in a row - but it'll be my last unless I see a change in direction from the club. I'll always follow the club, sure, but I just won't pick up seasons. I think that's the same for most people. You don't HAVE to own season tickets to be considered a supporter. At the end of the day I also don't want to feel as though I'm enabling the incompetence from FO by putting more money in their hands.

Phil

11-23-2012, 09:42 AM

I said it in the Cann thread but I will put it here as its a trend I see with Mariner.

At first he blames injury and all the things affecting the club (as if other clubs don't have injury concerns). Then he blames Winter for the mess, Winter fires back with his side and then Mariner towes that line - its everyones fault. He never expands on it and when asked he avoids the question and diverts it into another avenue.

The man just tells people what he thinks they want to hear. Its very reminiciant of Mo and the total crap he would sell the media and fans. "We are only 4 players away", "bad injuries to key players cost us the season", it all reeks of desperation and its toxic to say the least.

PAOK17

11-23-2012, 11:31 AM

You make a fair point there, he was really only given that job ie Plymouth on an interim basis anyway, and when they removed him from managers position they immediately offered him his coaching postion back. By all means criticise the man for last season with TFC, but for people who know nothing about Plymouth to use as a stick to beat PM is wrong.
That was my mistake. Though I only included it just to show that despite him being 60, he has no successful coaching experience at all. Had he done something decent, even at Plymouth, then maybe he could argue being good at what he does. You can't make such bold statements and not expect skeptics, like myself, to dig into your past to see if there is any evidence backing your claim. I looked up his coaching history and found that he only has about 60 games experience. And none of that experience shows anything good.

Anyway, like I said, his points per game and winning percentage were worse at TFC than Plymouth anyway. So my mistake of inlcuding the Plymouth results only made him look statistically better overall. So regardless how you look at his coaching career and what you decide to include/not include when judging him, you only have one conclusion to make: no evidence that he is good at what he does.

ryan

11-23-2012, 11:39 AM

I've never coached football at any stage in my life, but I assure you I'm good at what I do. Can I be TFC's manager?

ag futbol

11-23-2012, 11:54 AM

That was my mistake. Though I only included it just to show that despite him being 60, he has no successful coaching experience at all. Had he done something decent, even at Plymouth, then maybe he could argue being good at what he does. You can't make such bold statements and not expect skeptics, like myself, to dig into your past to see if there is any evidence backing your claim. I looked up his coaching history and found that he only has about 60 games experience. And none of that experience shows anything good.

Anyway, like I said, his points per game and winning percentage were worse at TFC than Plymouth anyway. So my mistake of inlcuding the Plymouth results only made him look statistically better overall. So regardless how you look at his coaching career and what you decide to include/not include when judging him, you only have one conclusion to make: no evidence that he is good at what he does.
You know what? I don't think you are entirely wrong to include his run at Plymouth as a nock against his prior performance. For starters, there's a lot of qualitative stuff that came out of that from their fans (playing guys out of position, poor tactics) that has carried over here. Also, for a lot of people trying to break into the coaching ranks, they don't necessarily get their shot at a full gig under ideal situations. Maybe the scale for acceptable performance is different under the circumstances, but it can't be said he was successful by any means.

So as you've said, he's not young, never had a successful stint anywhere, and shows multiple signs of being inept.

I've never coached football at any stage in my life, but I assure you I'm good at what I do. Can I be TFC's manager?
At the rate we are going? yes, yes you can. Just renew you're tickets for the 2013 season and you will be rewarded with the opportunity to coach TFC for one half of football. We wanted more in game flexibility? So you'll be fired at half-time or at the end of 90 so another SSH can take over.