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View Full Version : Montreal continues to move forward. TFC shits it's pants



Toronto
11-14-2012, 01:00 AM
http://www.impactmontreal.com/en/news/2012/11/impact-italy-four-players-trial-team


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicol%C3%A1s_C%C3%B3rdova

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Pisanu

I wonder what NCAA sensation we'll be chasing. Sad.

Yohan
11-14-2012, 01:04 AM
Yay. Couple of Italian trialists that Montreal don't have the international spot to sign all of them. Big fucking deal.

Shakes McQueen
11-14-2012, 01:08 AM
Since when have we chased "NCAA sensations"?

Montreal are trialing some European players, a couple of which have interesting resumes. Good for them. I have no idea what this has to do with "moving forward", versus TFC.

- Scott

TFC07
11-14-2012, 01:09 AM
http://www.impactmontreal.com/en/news/2012/11/impact-italy-four-players-trial-team


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolás_Córdova

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Pisanu

I wonder what NCAA sensation we'll be chasing. Sad.
LOL Montreal is proactive during off-season. It's nice to see players playing in a high level trialing for your club. It shows how serious Montreal is taking their team unlike TFC who are just sit on their asses and try to bribe fans to come back by offering free Raptor tickets if they renew their season tickets early. lol

Shakes McQueen
11-14-2012, 01:13 AM
You are aware we have trialed all kinds of European players too, right?

Can we stick to criticizing the team for real and relevant stuff, please? There's more than enough of it to go around.

- Scott

TFC07
11-14-2012, 01:20 AM
You are aware we have trialed all kinds of European players too, right?

Can we stick to criticizing the team for real and relevant stuff, please? There's more than enough of it to go around.

- ScottOne of players Montreal is currently trailing is A South American. But point is: Montreal is being aggressive out there to build their team unlike TFC. How many players do TFC trial from Europe that played in high level? Not too many! Montreal is being very active which is great to see if you're fan of their club unlike TFC who are busy targeting bunch of MLS rejects and players who come from Bermuda.

Yohan
11-14-2012, 01:27 AM
One of players Montreal is currently trailing is A South American. But point is: Montreal is being aggressive out there to build their team unlike TFC. How many players do TFC trial from Europe that played in high level? Not too many! Montreal is being very active which is great to see if you're fan of their club unlike TFC who are busy targeting bunch of MLS rejects and players who come from Bermuda.

The guy you are talking about, Bem, basically played all his career in Swiss 2nd div.

Right now most MLS teams are either still in playoff mode or finalizing their roster before 2 Dec, when roster freeze is over and Re-Entry draft and whatnot is happening. No other MLS teams decided to go to Europe to have couple of friendlies against some reserve teams. I don't see why such a hard on for couple of guys Montreal has on trial.

Once pre season starts and there isn't much coming out of TFC camp, then I'd be more curious.

Pookie
11-14-2012, 06:50 AM
LOL Montreal is proactive during off-season. It's nice to see players playing in a high level trialing for your club. It shows how serious Montreal is taking their team unlike TFC who are just sit on their asses and try to bribe fans to come back by offering free Raptor tickets if they renew their season tickets early. lol

Not exactly true. TFC had two young Brazilians with the club a few weeks ago and word is that they have increased their scouting presence (to be confirmed)

Shakes McQueen
11-14-2012, 07:10 AM
Not exactly true. TFC had two young Brazilians with the club a few weeks ago and word is that they have increased their scouting presence (to be confirmed)

TORONTO FC MOVING FORWARD WHILE REST OF MLS SHITS ITS PANTS

- Scott

narduch
11-14-2012, 07:30 AM
You are aware we have trialed all kinds of European players too, right?

Can we stick to criticizing the team for real and relevant stuff, please? There's more than enough of it to go around.

- Scott

It is relevant. Just a few weeks backTFC was trialing ANOTHER Bermudan.

Meanwhile Mariner is off to England to scout (or have a vacation really).

Montreal has been fairly successful using players based in Italy (and Switzerland). Even dating back to their USL days (I remember Pesoli being a great find on their part).


Not exactly true. TFC had two young Brazilians with the club a few weeks ago and word is that they have increased their scouting presence (to be confirmed)

Weren't these 2 players from Atlanta? While I think its good to scout the NASL, its not really proof that TFC is truly expanding its horizons.

The club is probably going to try to claim they are increasing their scouting because it sounds good to the hardcore fans. Just like the Academy sell. But considering Mariner + Cochrane's track record I don't have any faith it will be successful.

-----------

I'm more interested to see who Montreal hires as their coach. They need to make a good hire in that position to truly move forward.

Technorgasm
11-14-2012, 08:10 AM
regardless if these trades happen, and if they are a success..
its plan to see that TORONTO here has a nack for thread titles.

5 stars.

tfcleeds
11-14-2012, 08:15 AM
Yawn...if Saputo wants to turn the Impact into the Italian national C team, he can be my guest. I'm not much concerned about this at all. Oh, I'm sure, in due course we'll have any number of Bermudians and League Two players on trial, but I'm hardly going to get myself worked up over this.

Phil
11-14-2012, 08:44 AM
We actually did have scouts out on trips to Central America these past couple of weeks, other places too.

Sorry resume your 'misery loves company' fest.

Ultra & Proud
11-14-2012, 09:19 AM
When it all plays out I don't think people will be looking at Montreal as the MLS club not shitting it's pants. Even us (maybe). They're now on their 5th manager since 2008 so they love managerial turnover too but unlike us, who have absentee ownership, they have a meddling one that already chased out an excellent, developing manager. These B and C level Serie A players may work out for them, who knows? But to me it's looking a lot like it's heading towards something like the Lithuanian experiment at Hearts. That didn't turn out too good.

Phil
11-14-2012, 09:23 AM
Getting players in is 'moving forward'....where is their coach?

I think Montreal are sleeping with a friggin depends on right now by the sounds of it. Single owner that meddles too much will be a problem for them.

narduch
11-14-2012, 09:35 AM
Getting players in is 'moving forward'....where is their coach?

I think Montreal are sleeping with a friggin depends on right now by the sounds of it. Single owner that meddles too much will be a problem for them.

That is yet to be seen. At least he cares more about winning than TFC's ownership.

Our FO spends more time playing backroom politics than it does improving the club. Promotions for all the the people who fail, but suck the right dick.

narduch
11-14-2012, 09:38 AM
When it all plays out I don't think people will be looking at Montreal as the MLS club not shitting it's pants. Even us (maybe). They're now on their 5th manager since 2008 so they love managerial turnover too but unlike us, who have absentee ownership, they have a meddling one that already chased out an excellent, developing manager. These B and C level Serie A players may work out for them, who knows? But to me it's looking a lot like it's heading towards something like the Lithuanian experiment at Hearts. That didn't turn out too good.

The manager thing isn't that big a deal. Most teams all over the world will cycle through coaches until they finally find the right one. Other than Marsch, I can't think of a single recent Impact coach firing that wasn't warranted. Not every team is TFC dumb and lets a guy that isn't fit for the job continue in the role for the sake of 'stability'.

Marsch wasn't really THAT good. If they hire someone better they will be further ahead. I'm interested to see where they go in that regard.

Phil
11-14-2012, 09:51 AM
That is yet to be seen. At least he cares more about winning than TFC's ownership.

Our FO spends more time playing backroom politics than it does improving the club. Promotions for all the the people who fail, but suck the right dick.

I would agree, from what I hear there is too much time spent in backroom stuff.

But, where is the president for Montreal? Where is their head coach? Everyone goes around and demands these things as fixes for our club, heralds the acomplishments of other teams yet they lack the foundations we all demand.

The internet makes me laugh.

maninb
11-14-2012, 09:54 AM
IMO we will NEVER be successful with PM as manager...He's a crap coach, who is in way over his head technically..so no matter who we sign it's irrelevant...Everybody has seen how he has already marginalized talented players like Frings, Silva, Avila, etc....

narduch
11-14-2012, 09:55 AM
I would agree, from what I hear there is too much time spent in backroom stuff.

But, where is the president for Montreal? Where is their head coach? Everyone goes around and demands these things as fixes for our club, heralds the acomplishments of other teams yet they lack the foundations we all demand.

The internet makes me laugh.

Montreal still has a foundation way better than ours. Just no coach.

I would take Montreal's crazy FO over TFC's in a heartbeat. Cochrane and Mariner making the key soccer decisions? No thanks.

The only thing that's laughable is your attempt to defend TFC's FO.

narduch
11-14-2012, 10:00 AM
IMO we will NEVER be successful with PM as manager...He's a crap coach, who is in way over his head technically..so no matter who we sign it's irrelevant...Everybody has seen how he has already marginalized talented players like Frings, Silva, Avila, etc....

Agreed. By keeping Mariner we are just delaying the inevitable. The true rebuild won't start until he and Cochrane are gone.

Even scarier is that after they are turfed, we will have to hope that idiots like Anselmi will hire the right people. What are the chances he finally gets it right?

Phil
11-14-2012, 10:03 AM
Montreal still has a foundation way better than ours. Just no coach.

I would take Montreal's crazy FO over TFC's in a heartbeat. Cochrane and Mariner making the key soccer decisions? No thanks.

The only thing that's laughable is your attempt to defend TFC's FO.

I haven't been defending them, I am critical of all this.

However before I give Montreal credit for doing it right, I would like to see some evidence.

Who is Montreals Prsident? If its the cheese man, then they are no further ahead.

narduch
11-14-2012, 10:04 AM
I haven't been defending them, I am critical of all this.

However before I give Montreal credit for doing it right, I would like to see some evidence.

Who is Montreals Prsident? If its the cheese man, then they are no further ahead.

They are way further ahead. How can they not be considering who is running TFC? That is quite a stretch to say that TFC is even in the same stratosphere.

The evidence is in how they finished in the league. That is all we can go on.

TFC is going to be battling for last again next year.

Are you honestly going to say that Joey Saputo as team President is as bad as TFC's set up? LOL.

Phil
11-14-2012, 10:13 AM
They are way further ahead. How can they not be considering who is running TFC? That is quite a stretch to say that TFC is even in the same stratosphere.

The evidence is in how they finished in the league. That is all we can go on.

TFC is going to be battling for last again next year.

Are you honestly going to say that Joey Saputo as team President is as bad as TFC's set up? LOL.


I am not a fan of Marnier and would like to see a change. I would also like to see some accountability brought into this organization and have a director of operations or a president.

Right now the Impact have a owner that knows no bounds and is interfering with his team, to the point where he has no coach. That to me is as bad if not worse then the mess we have.

What experience does Joey have, especially with the MLS or Soccer other than being a guy who has money and owns the team?

The best thing all these guys could do is hire a proper staff, throw as much money at it as they can and leave it alone.

narduch
11-14-2012, 10:15 AM
Right now the Impact have a owner that knows no bounds and is interfering with his team, to the point where he has no coach. That to me is as bad if not worse then the mess we have.

It really depends on who they hire. What if they improve on Marsch?

I would still rather have an owner that cares as much as Saputo does. Its way better than what we have here where the guy running the team for 6 years of abject failure gets promoted. We essentially have absentee owners.

Saputo is the Mark Cuban of MLS.

Phil
11-14-2012, 10:21 AM
It really depends on who they hire. What if they improve on Marsch?

I would still rather have an owner that cares as much as Saputo does. Its way better than what we have here where the guy running the team for 6 years of abject failure gets promoted. We essentially have absentee owners.

Saputo is the Mark Cuban of MLS.

I prefer to see them as dysfunctional. Point being the title has a lot of shit in it, for both clubs when you really look at it.

ag futbol
11-14-2012, 11:41 AM
The best thing all these guys could do is hire a proper staff, throw as much money at it as they can and leave it alone.
I disagree. Ideally ownership should provide oversight and instill some checks and balances.

That being said, I would rather have a "super fan" running the team than an absentee corporation.

Yohan
11-14-2012, 11:45 AM
I prefer to see them as dysfunctional. Point being the title has a lot of shit in it, for both clubs when you really look at it.Saputo is dangerously on the road to turning Montreal into another Chivas USA

Phil
11-14-2012, 11:46 AM
I disagree. Ideally ownership should provide oversight and instill some checks and balances.

That being said, I would rather have a "super fan" running the team than an absentee corporation.

What I was getting at is ownership doing just that. Hiring a proper staff equates in my mind the overshight to install people who will institue the checks and balances.

'Super fan' ownership can be something we all relate too, but I don't think its good for the club overall. Meddling owners are too reactive and can make some pretty damaging moves that hurt. Harold Ballard is a good example of that I think. Anyhow to each thier own, I just wanted to clarify my vague statement before everyone mis quotes it and starts planning the parade route for Montreal.

Phil
11-14-2012, 11:47 AM
Saputo is dangerously on the road to turning Montreal into another Chivas USA

I would agree. Seems that isn't the prevailing feeling though. Pass the blue cheese please.

Alixir
11-14-2012, 11:49 AM
Regardless who Montreal is trialing at the moment I truely feel that out of all 3 Canadian teams that Montreal will be the most successful in the future.

Yohan
11-14-2012, 11:49 AM
http://www.goal.com/en-ca/news/4175/major-league-soccer/2012/11/14/3527474/nick-sabetti-eullaffroy-and-the-impact-academy-closing-the

More of a write up on Mtl vs Fiorentina youth game

brad
11-14-2012, 12:05 PM
I'm not so sure that the Italian experiment will work out. Success in the MLS is based on having a core group of American players. Word is the Italian and non-Italian camps aren't getting along so well at Montreal.

Also, people complain about our FO looking at lower divisions in England for talent due to the fact that talent is overpriced there. So are the lower divisions in Italy any different? Will those players play for less money, or will the Impact end up over paying for lower division European players like we do, just from a different league.

narduch
11-14-2012, 12:09 PM
The economy in Italy is doing very poorly. Teams are going bankrupt all the time.

I think you can find bargains there. And players with way more technical ability than what you could find in England's League 2.

Oldtimer
11-14-2012, 12:29 PM
We had a thread like this one about how amazing Vancouver's original setup was and how they were going to make the playoffs in year 1.

They failed miserably, and after some disfunction similar to TFC blew up that "amazing" setup up and now barely squeaked into the playoffs a year later, hardly inspiring.

When your team sucks as badly as TFC has, any other team looks amazing. However, I'd rather emulate the better teams in MLS instead of Montreal, or Vancouver for that matter. They are hardly examples.

jabbronies
11-14-2012, 12:45 PM
Agree with Phil. People need to stop sucking the dick of other teams in the MLS.
Who cares what Montreal is doing. We shouldn't look at what others are doing/not doing. Focus on TFC and what they need to do. Period.

narduch
11-14-2012, 12:50 PM
Agree with Phil. People need to stop sucking the dick of other teams in the MLS.
Who cares what Montreal is doing. We shouldn't look at what others are doing/not doing. Focus on TFC and what they need to do. Period.

Nobody's doing that.

We do need to look at what other MLS teams are doing.

Its kind of hilarious reading all these people being defensive about TFC. TFC is the worst run team in the league. Obviously people will look up to other teams.

Ultra & Proud
11-14-2012, 12:52 PM
The economy in Italy is doing very poorly. Teams are going bankrupt all the time.

I think you can find bargains there. And players with way more technical ability than what you could find in England's League 2.

But so far Saputo hasn't found bargains yet. He's dropped big bucks on what everyone here bitched about for years, old, slow players getting a last decent paycheck before heading off into the sunset. I've seen nothing from their Italian imports to suggest they'll do anything to help Montreal in the future and no I don't care about what they'd done in Serie A in the past. Has nothing to do with playing in MLS and being successful.

Ultra & Proud
11-14-2012, 12:55 PM
We do need to look at what other MLS teams are doing.

Its kind of hilarious reading all these people being defensive about TFC. TFC is the worst run team in the league. Obviously people will look up to other teams.

Getting caught up with by Chivas and the Impact though. One nearly as inept as us over the long haul and the other will be relegated to a league wide joke if Crazy Joey keeps pulling the strings as he sees and by shooting his mouth off non-stop about everything, including the play of his own players.

narduch
11-14-2012, 12:57 PM
But so far Saputo hasn't found bargains yet. He's dropped big bucks on what everyone here bitched about for years, old, slow players getting a last decent paycheck before heading off into the sunset. I've seen nothing from their Italian imports to suggest they'll do anything to help Montreal in the future and no I don't care about what they'd done in Serie A in the past. Has nothing to do with playing in MLS and being successful.

Really, you wouldn't take Ferrari over O'Dea? For a lot less money too?

Felipe isn't a bargain? (And I realize he came from Switzerland, but I believe that is part of the same scouting network).

narduch
11-14-2012, 01:02 PM
Getting caught up with by Chivas and the Impact though. One nearly as inept as us over the long haul and the other will be relegated to a league wide joke if Crazy Joey keeps pulling the strings as he sees and by shooting his mouth off non-stop about everything, including the play of his own players.

This is just wishful thinking on your part.

TFC is still the worst run team in the league, by a wide margin.

Chivas and New England are pretty awful too, but still not TFC bad.

Phil
11-14-2012, 01:21 PM
This is just wishful thinking on your part.

TFC is still the worst run team in the league, by a wide margin.

Chivas and New England are pretty awful too, but still not TFC bad.

A lot of recent publications seem to indicate Chivas are way worse off than TFC.

As well, lets not forget that the impact have no coach or any 'soccer' people running the show, just a meddling super fan owner which may or may not work out but according to some with a crystal ball, its all going to be good for them and doom and gloom for us.

Don't confuse this with being an apologist or whatever else I get accused of being. Its an opinion. Everyone has one, I have seen this story in the past with Oltimers Vancouver pionts and now we are seeing it with Montreal. Both of those teams IMO are on the same fault ridden path that we are on, alwyas showing the manager the door and trying to focus on next year.

Here is a plan, lets focus on longer term solutions, like bringing in experienced football people and developing our academy and its players to the point that we don't need a 'superdraft'. The talent and interest exist in this country and in our city, its time to install the foundation and ensure it doesn't get tampered with.

v00d00daddy
11-14-2012, 01:26 PM
I am not a fan of Marnier and would like to see a change. I would also like to see some accountability brought into this organization and have a director of operations or a president.

Right now the Impact have a owner that knows no bounds and is interfering with his team, to the point where he has no coach. That to me is as bad if not worse then the mess we have.

What experience does Joey have, especially with the MLS or Soccer other than being a guy who has money and owns the team?

The best thing all these guys could do is hire a proper staff, throw as much money at it as they can and leave it alone.

I ran into somebody (prior to the coaching change) very close to the club in Montreal who told me that several of the players in Montreal, namely the ex serie a guys, didnt like the style of play and that it was going to change.

Then Marsch is fired.

So you can bet that they're going to bring in a coach that favours a style of play that will suit the players they have.

Will it work? Who knows?

Does it make sense? Yup.

Does TFCs ownership do this?
Well....they say it...and then do the opposite.

Montreal is a first year team in MLS and they have high expectations.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with their methods, it's ridiculous to argue that they're not in better shape than a 6 season old expansion team...which is what we are. Lol

narduch
11-14-2012, 01:27 PM
Here is a plan, lets focus on longer term solutions, like bringing in experienced football people and developing our academy and its players to the point that we don't need a 'superdraft'. The talent and interest exist in this country and in our city, its time to install the foundation and ensure it doesn't get tampered with.

Until TFC fires Mariner + Cochrane we aren't close to ever getting to this.

I disagree with your assessment of Vancouver and Montreal. They are miles ahead of us.

As for Chivas, we still finished below them this year. So until we surpass them in the standings, I still consider TFC worse than them.

I haven't seen TFC make any moves yet that show they are serious about not finishing last again next season.

Does anyone have faith in Mariner + Cochrane to turn this around?

narduch
11-14-2012, 01:33 PM
Regardless of whether or not you agree with their methods, it's ridiculous to argue that they're not in better shape than a 6 season old expansion team...which is what we are. Lol

Agreed. That's pretty much the point I'm trying to make.

Phil
11-14-2012, 01:38 PM
I ran into somebody (prior to the coaching change) very close to the club in Montreal who told me that several of the players in Montreal, namely the ex serie a guys, didnt like the style of play and that it was going to change.

Then Marsch is fired.

So you can bet that they're going to bring in a coach that favours a style of play that will suit the players they have.

Will it work? Who knows?

Does it make sense? Yup.

Does TFCs ownership do this?
Well....they say it...and then do the opposite.

Montreal is a first year team in MLS and they have high expectations.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with their methods, it's ridiculous to argue that they're not in better shape than a 6 season old expansion team...which is what we are. Lol

Montreal and Vancouver should be further ahead by virtue of their past club experience. I can't argue with your assesment or predict the future. But the title of this thread is stupid. I am not happy with the state of TFC but to suggest Montreal is doing things so much better seems a bit off at this point.

As for this year our league performance was terrible. The numbers show that, but we did do pretty well in CCL at the start of the year, won the Canadian Championship (against Van and Mtl) and went on to complete in the CCL this year. There were some highlights.

I am not happy with the mess in management right now with our club, I want a plan to fix it and to acutally see them commit to sticking it out.

Year 6 or year 1, we need this fixed now.

The cheese is always bluer on the other side I guess.

narduch
11-14-2012, 01:40 PM
Montreal and Vancouver should be further ahead by virtue of their past club experience..

But in our 6th season that shouldn't be the case.

We had a had start and we blew it.

Ultra & Proud
11-14-2012, 01:42 PM
Really, you wouldn't take Ferrari over O'Dea? For a lot less money too?

Felipe isn't a bargain? (And I realize he came from Switzerland, but I believe that is part of the same scouting network).

I would take O'Dea over Ferrari. Almost 8 years younger, still developing his game but still has experience. Will be around long after Ferrari is gone.

Felipe is a good deal sure but giving well over $220k for a 36 year old striker wasn't the smartest move in my opinion.

Yohan
11-14-2012, 01:48 PM
Until TFC fires Mariner + Cochrane we aren't close to ever getting to this.

I disagree with your assessment of Vancouver and Montreal. They are miles ahead of us.

As for Chivas, we still finished below them this year. So until we surpass them in the standings, I still consider TFC worse than them.

I haven't seen TFC make any moves yet that show they are serious about not finishing last again next season.

Does anyone have faith in Mariner + Cochrane to turn this around?

Honestly, if you read up on Kraft and Vergara... Man, these two are blights of MLS

narduch
11-14-2012, 01:54 PM
Honestly, if you read up on Kraft and Vergara... Man, these two are blights of MLS

I'm well aware of their work. Which makes the fact that TFC is worse than both those teams a sad indictment on our management team.

prizby
11-14-2012, 01:57 PM
http://www.impactmontreal.com/en/news/2012/11/impact-italy-four-players-trial-team


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolás_Córdova

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Pisanu

I wonder what NCAA sensation we'll be chasing. Sad.

yep..really moving forward when you fire your first year coach...following tfc's shit in the pants there

Canary10
11-14-2012, 02:04 PM
I ran into somebody (prior to the coaching change) very close to the club in Montreal who told me that several of the players in Montreal, namely the ex serie a guys, didnt like the style of play and that it was going to change.

Then Marsch is fired.

So you can bet that they're going to bring in a coach that favours a style of play that will suit the players they have.

Will it work? Who knows?

Does it make sense? Yup.

Does TFCs ownership do this?
Well....they say it...and then do the opposite.

Montreal is a first year team in MLS and they have high expectations.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with their methods, it's ridiculous to argue that they're not in better shape than a 6 season old expansion team...which is what we are. Lol

The team shouldn't be run by a small group of players. That's recipe for disaster.

ryan
11-14-2012, 02:29 PM
The team shouldn't be run by a small group of players. That's recipe for disaster.

Especially when said players have a shelf life of what, 2 years tops?

TFC07
11-14-2012, 02:51 PM
Not exactly true. TFC had two young Brazilians with the club a few weeks ago and word is that they have increased their scouting presence (to be confirmed)

Two Brazilian players who have played in high level? Current TFC management aren't exactly have been impressive when comes to acquiring quality players. TFC have trailed more players from Bermuda than players from Brazil.

narduch
11-14-2012, 02:52 PM
Two Brazilian players who have played in high level? Current TFC management aren't exactly have been impressive when comes to acquiring quality players. TFC have trailed more players from Bermuda than players from Brazil.

The two Brazilians in question are from the Atlanta NASL team.

TFC07
11-14-2012, 03:00 PM
The two Brazilians in question are from the Atlanta NASL team.

LOL That is funny and strengthen my point. MLS rejects and Bermuda players are better than players who have played in high level in Europe? Hopefully people here see why I credited Montreal in this thread. They got higher standards than TFC of building their club. Our rivals are making us look bad right now (both on and off the field).

ag futbol
11-14-2012, 03:10 PM
I'm not against checking the NASL / USL for talent. In the past some decent players have come through that route although success in both leagues is hardly a 1-to-1 relationship (eg. Marco Velez, Christian Arrieta).

If I remember the story from the article, these guys both played for Cal FC and were recommended to Mariner by Eric Wynalda

v00d00daddy
11-14-2012, 03:13 PM
The team shouldn't be run by a small group of players. That's recipe for disaster.


Especially when said players have a shelf life of what, 2 years tops?

I agree somewhat but that's an argument for bringing in those guys or not bringing them in.

Once you do, it only makes sense to play a style that suits them.

And I don't know if it will remain "a small group of players"

I think Montreal is looking to build a team with players of the same mindset.

Again...will it work? Who knows?

But at least they have a plan.

brad
11-14-2012, 03:22 PM
LOL That is funny and strengthen my point. MLS rejects and Bermuda players are better than players who have played in high level in Europe? Hopefully people here see why I credited Montreal in this thread. They got higher standards than TFC of building their club. Our rivals are making us look bad right now (both on and off the field).

We have trialled a lot of player that have played in Europe over the years. I'm not sure what the point of comparing Montreal trial some lower division players from Italy is to us. When we sign lower division players from Europe, people complain that they are overpriced and we should be looking at Central America for value. But when Montreal do it - it is somehow better?

TFC07
11-14-2012, 03:25 PM
We have trialled a lot of player that have played in Europe over the years. I'm not sure what the point of comparing Montreal trial some lower division players from Italy is to us. When we sign lower division players from Europe, people complain that they are overpriced and we should be looking at Central America for value. But when Montreal do it - it is somehow better?
I am comparing our CURRENT management team with Montreal. How many players have we really trial from Europe who have played in HIGH LEVEL? Montreal is going after players who have played in Serie A (one of the better leagues in Europe) while majority of players TFC have trialed from Europe came from lower English league.

brad
11-14-2012, 03:26 PM
I agree somewhat but that's an argument for bringing in those guys or not bringing them in.

Once you do, it only makes sense to play a style that suits them.

And I don't know if it will remain "a small group of players"

I think Montreal is looking to build a team with players of the same mindset.

Again...will it work? Who knows?

But at least they have a plan.

It sort of reminds me of out Dutch experiment TBH. It's nice to have a style of play in mind, but is that the right style for the MLS? Will it work here, with the players that you have at your disposal and will play for the kind of salaries that the MLS pays?

I'd honestly be more impressed if they were on their way to building a core team of North American players.

v00d00daddy
11-14-2012, 03:33 PM
It sort of reminds me of out Dutch experiment TBH. It's nice to have a style of play in mind, but is that the right style for the MLS? Will it work here, with the players that you have at your disposal and will play for the kind of salaries that the MLS pays?

I'd honestly be more impressed if they were on their way to building a core team of North American players.

And I wish we were still working with the "Dutch experiment" plan.

Instead we're a bad expansion team with a terrible reputation, an ownership group that is clueless and a coach that is a bumbling , arrogant fuckhead that is stuck in the 80s with his playing style.

ag futbol
11-14-2012, 03:34 PM
I agree somewhat but that's an argument for bringing in those guys or not bringing them in.

Once you do, it only makes sense to play a style that suits them.

And I don't know if it will remain "a small group of players"

On the old side of things you have: Corradi, Nesta, and Di Vaio

But others who could be around longer: Rivas, Ferrari, potentially similar Iapichino and Felipe (who both played in Switzerland).

As long as their contracts aren't too ridiculous, they can cycle more guys in-and-out. If they establish a good reputation it could work to their advantage. They seem to know what they want and seem to think they can get it better than others because of the ownership connections. Seems like a reasonable way of building a talent acquisition strategy. They have a pretty high hit-rate thus far, Di Vaio and Corradi being mildly underwhelming but not disasters. Otherwise I think the results speek for themselves. 42 points after a slow start is a pretty good performance IMO.

TFC07
11-14-2012, 03:37 PM
TFC never truly tried to establish Dutch experiment because Mariner and Co undermine Winter. Winter never got the players he wanted and took a lot of crap players in. I am not saying Winter is completely innocent, but this experiment was doom to fail from the start because not everyone in TFC FO were on board with this experiment. So you can't really say dutch experiment failed in this case.

v00d00daddy
11-14-2012, 03:40 PM
On the old side of things you have: Corradi, Nesta, and Di Vaio

But others who could be around longer: Rivas, Ferrari, potentially similar Iapichino and Felipe (who both played in Switzerland).

As long as their contracts aren't too ridiculous, they can cycle more guys in-and-out. If they establish a good reputation it could work to their advantage. They seem to know what they want and seem to think they can get it better than others because of the ownership connections. Seems like a reasonable way of building a talent acquisition strategy. They have a pretty high hit-rate thus far, Di Vaio and Corradi being mildly underwhelming but not disasters. Otherwise I think the results speek for themselves. 42 points after a slow start is a pretty good performance IMO.

Agreed and I don't think we can underestimate what a good experience for the older guys can translate into.

Guys like nesta and divaio can go back to Italy and let people know that Montreal is a good opportunity to play a style suited to their games and where they'll find a professional atmosphere and a competitive team.

Anyone think Frings or Koevermans are going to go back to holland and Germany with encouraging words for their footballing colleagues?

I don't.

Ultra & Proud
11-14-2012, 04:11 PM
TFC never truly tried to establish Dutch experiment because Mariner and Co undermine Winter. Winter never got the players he wanted and took a lot of crap players in. I am not saying Winter is completely innocent, but this experiment was doom to fail from the start because not everyone in TFC FO were on board with this experiment. So you can't really say dutch experiment failed in this case.

That's a load of crap. Winter broke the league transfer last year and if he didn't get the players that could execute his system properly it was because of:


A) He was a poor evaluator of MLS talent
B) His 'teaching' of said system wasn't up to par
C) He was handcuffed by the MLS salary cap as to the quality of players he could get
D) All of the above

Greatest Ripoff
11-14-2012, 04:14 PM
But so far Saputo hasn't found bargains yet. He's dropped big bucks on what everyone here bitched about for years, old, slow players getting a last decent paycheck before heading off into the sunset. I've seen nothing from their Italian imports to suggest they'll do anything to help Montreal in the future and no I don't care about what they'd done in Serie A in the past. Has nothing to do with playing in MLS and being successful.

Really?

Ferrari $185,000 - Eckersley $390,000
Rivas $50,000 - Cann $134,000
Nesta $225,000 - O'Dea $436,000
Bernier $150,000 - DeGuzman -$1,900,000
Martins $120,000 - Avila $158,000

Which players would you prefer taking into account this is a capped league? Are they any players on Toronto that offer value for money right now? Dunfield and Morgan are all I can think of.

Pookie
11-14-2012, 04:14 PM
Two Brazilian players who have played in high level? Current TFC management aren't exactly have been impressive when comes to acquiring quality players. TFC have trailed more players from Bermuda than players from Brazil.

They are twins, 22 years old (MF and F). I'm assuming not at a high level given that they are trialling with TFC in the MLS ;)

TFC07
11-14-2012, 04:20 PM
That's a load of crap. Winter broke the league transfer last year and if he didn't get the players that could execute his system properly it was because of:


A) He was a poor evaluator of MLS talent
B) His 'teaching' of said system wasn't up to par
C) He was handcuffed by the MLS salary cap as to the quality of players he could get
D) All of the above

Mariner job was to bring the players that fitted what Winter tried to establish, but he failed to do so. Also, Mariner was hired to bring his MLS experience and help Winter and co as well. There were players Winter wanted, but Mariner rejected to bring in. We all know players like Iro, Eck, etc... were bought by Mariner not Winter. Don't be so naïve and believe what Mariner and his buddies are saying in the media. They're just covering their asses and blaming their short comings on Winter.

TFC07
11-14-2012, 04:22 PM
They are twins, 22 years old (MF and F). I'm assuming not at a high level given that they are trialling with TFC in the MLS ;)
22 year old players from from NASL isn't exactly impressive these days since we got players younger than them playing in MLS (including TFC) already. lol We can do better than that!

Oldtimer
11-14-2012, 04:28 PM
I think Montreal is looking to build a team with players of the same mindset.

Again...will it work? Who knows?

But at least they have a plan.

TFC focused on Canadians (partly due to roster restrictions) and Brits for the first 3 years. They played a consistent style. Mo also had a plan to succeed by stocking up allocation money for a run in year 3. How did that turn out?

TFC07
11-14-2012, 04:29 PM
TFC focused on Canadians (partly due to roster restrictions) and Brits for the first 3 years. They played a consistent style. Mo also had a plan to succeed by stocking up allocation money for a run in year 3. How did that turn out?

Difference is quality of foreign players TFC were trying to bring in. Montreal is bringing players who have played first tier in one of better leagues in the world while TFC were bringing in lower English league players.

v00d00daddy
11-14-2012, 04:41 PM
TFC focused on Canadians (partly due to roster restrictions) and Brits for the first 3 years. They played a consistent style. Mo also had a plan to succeed by stocking up allocation money for a run in year 3. How did that turn out?

It didn't turn out very well.

But I don't think it's fair to compare the quality of player from TFC in years 1 and 2 to the quality that Montreal brought in in year one.

And there's also no comparing the results. And montreal a results carry even more weight because the quality of the league is better now than it was in 2007.

So...just because TFC failed with Canadians and Brits in 2007, doesn't mean Montreal will fail now.

Ultra & Proud
11-14-2012, 04:49 PM
Really?

Ferrari $185,000 - Eckersley $390,000
Rivas $50,000 - Cann $134,000
Nesta $225,000 - O'Dea $436,000
Bernier $150,000 - DeGuzman -$1,900,000
Martins $120,000 - Avila $158,000

Which players would you prefer taking into account this is a capped league? Are they any players on Toronto that offer value for money right now? Dunfield and Morgan are all I can think of.

Of note: Eckersley is at $220k. Don't count his transfer fee after this season. The pay is similar to Ferrari's. Is he better? We'll see but he does have youth on his side. Cann, classic overpaying of Canadian content. No defense for that although no one bitched about it when he was MVP a couple years back. O'Dea is expensive but a generation younger than Nesta. JDG is a long known overpaid Canuck during our Canuck or bust years. Avila was fine as he was GA. Now, not so much.

Oldtimer
11-14-2012, 04:58 PM
Difference is quality of foreign players TFC were trying to bring in. Montreal is bringing players who have played first tier in one of better leagues in the world while TFC were bringing in lower English league players.

That's due to the DP rule changes. However, everyone else can buy Designated Players so the step-up in quality doesn't mean Montreal will get any more wins.

I like Joey, he's a passionate owner. It would be hard for most coaches to work with him though. When they were D-2, they went through as many as 3 a year. That won't work in MLS.

Ultra & Proud
11-14-2012, 05:01 PM
Also back onto Crazy Joey, think of it like this;

Tom Anselmi is the defacto 'boss' of the team. Or was anyway. He could do anything he wanted really. He admits to knowing nothing about Football or MLS and therefore hires 'experts' to do the thinking for him. They fuck it up repeatedly.

Next you have Crazy Joey, would never admit to knowing nothing about Football or MLS (has little experience beyond owning the Impact albeit for many years) yet tinkers with the team and fires an up and coming manager, whom the supporters supported, for what's been rumored as either a revolt of the Italian players against Marsch and his style of play or because he benched Bernier to light a fire under his ass earlier this year against Saputo's wishes. It should be said that the benching worked as he went on a tear after and was their MVP.


Now which would you rather have; absentee Anselmi or meddling Joey? Preferably neither but I'd take Ansemi if I had to pick. Soon no manager will want to go to the Impact and be on Saputo's puppet strings and that type of ownership meddling always comes back against teams. And if Anselmi just keeps up his usual and keeps getting new managers and regimes then one of them finally has to work out, right? Law of averages and all.

Ultra & Proud
11-14-2012, 05:05 PM
22 year old players from from NASL isn't exactly impressive these days since we got players younger than them playing in MLS (including TFC) already. lol We can do better than that!

Hopefully we can but who said these guys were looked on as saviors? Maybe just better options to use at $44k than some of the duds we're paying far more than that for (Wiedeman, Hall).

Yohan
11-14-2012, 05:16 PM
Hopefully we can but who said these guys were looked on as saviors? Maybe just better options to use at $44k than some of the duds we're paying far more than that for (Wiedeman, Hall).

damn those GA contracts!

Greatest Ripoff
11-14-2012, 05:39 PM
Of note: Eckersley is at $220k. Don't count his transfer fee after this season.


Toronto didn't pay a transfer fee for Eckersley. Burnley stated on their website at the time that the contract was mutually cancelled and he was free to find a new club. The story is no longer on their site but it is referenced in articles by Sky Sports, UK news papers and the11.ca

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/7458403/

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/sport/sportbcfc/9496544.Former_Bantam_Eckersley_has_Burnley_contra ct_cancelled/

http://the11.ca/2012/01/25/burnley-cancels-eckersleys-contract-making-way-for-tfc-deal/

ag futbol
11-14-2012, 05:40 PM
Of note: Eckersley is at $220k. Don't count his transfer fee after this season. The pay is similar to Ferrari's. Is he better? We'll see but he does have youth on his side. Cann, classic overpaying of Canadian content. No defense for that although no one bitched about it when he was MVP a couple years back. O'Dea is expensive but a generation younger than Nesta. JDG is a long known overpaid Canuck during our Canuck or bust years. Avila was fine as he was GA. Now, not so much.
People keep quoting his base number, but we still have to pay the transfer fee as well if that's what it's going to. Resources are resources regardless of whether they go into his salary or are paid to another club.

ag futbol
11-14-2012, 05:55 PM
Now which would you rather have; absentee Anselmi or meddling Joey? Preferably neither but I'd take Ansemi if I had to pick. Soon no manager will want to go to the Impact and be on Saputo's puppet strings and that type of ownership meddling always comes back against teams. And if Anselmi just keeps up his usual and keeps getting new managers and regimes then one of them finally has to work out, right? Law of averages and all.
Really?

I don't know how anyone could look at our track record with managers and somehow construe that as a positive. The only thing this team has going for it is that they have resources. Otherwise, they have existing staff they'll saddle you with, who are willing to back-stab and aren't very good at what they do.

Montreal MIGHT have problems. TFC does have problems. Most of what you're writing about "crazy Joey" is speculation. We'll see if he's proven right or wrong in his assessment of Marsh next year.

trane
11-14-2012, 05:57 PM
Getting players in is 'moving forward'....where is their coach?

I think Montreal are sleeping with a friggin depends on right now by the sounds of it. Single owner that meddles too much will be a problem for them.

I will take him over MLSE any day.

Pookie
11-14-2012, 06:47 PM
People keep quoting his base number, but we still have to pay the transfer fee as well if that's what it's going to. Resources are resources regardless of whether they go into his salary or are paid to another club.

The thing is though that resources are going into this from the league, not necessarily from TFC. Eckersley's contract was negotiated with the MLS and paid by the MLS. Believe it or not, his budget charge in 2013 might actually be less this year than it was in 2012.

It is a weird world but one that I would invite you to check out tomorrow at WakingtheRed. There is an in depth look at the salary "budget" in the MLS. The implications for all of us that want to play armchair GM, including me who thought I understood it, are pretty significant. Happy to discuss this further.

Shakes McQueen
11-14-2012, 07:02 PM
It is relevant. Just a few weeks backTFC was trialing ANOTHER Bermudan.

Meanwhile Mariner is off to England to scout (or have a vacation really).

Montreal has been fairly successful using players based in Italy (and Switzerland). Even dating back to their USL days (I remember Pesoli being a great find on their part).

TFC have, in the past, signed players from leagues across Europe, and brought in trialists from the same places. And not just England - remember those Eastern European busts we signed last year?

So again - this is a complete non story. Perhaps you have a good idea about looking harder in Italy specifically, but that has nothing to do with Montreal "moving forward", and even less to do with TFC's pants. We are constantly bringing in players on trial, many of whom come and go like the wind.

TFC's terrible scouting pratices are ripe for well deserved criticism, but it doesn't make the OP for this thread any less ridiculous. He says nothing about TFC's scouting, and instead points to Montreal having a few European trialists as evidence of "moving forward", despite the fact that every team is constantly trialing players from all over the place.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
11-14-2012, 07:04 PM
I will take him over MLSE any day.

If it was a matter of snapping my fingers, sure. But I don't think either owner is going to bring a ton of success to their team, for different reasons.

When you're the worst, second worst is technically an upgrade.

- Scott

brad
11-14-2012, 07:36 PM
BTW - TFC (this past summer - under Mariner) did actually trial a promising young Italian player (plying his trade in Italy). He's represented Italy at every level except the senior team, and done well and is still considered a prospect in Italy.

Can't divulge any more details as I promised I wouldn't, but the source was direct from a family member of the player in Toronto. I'm not sure what came of it, I sort of forgot about it until now. I'll have to ask.

brad
11-14-2012, 07:43 PM
Difference is quality of foreign players TFC were trying to bring in. Montreal is bringing players who have played first tier in one of better leagues in the world while TFC were bringing in lower English league players.

Actually a number of the players brought in had top flight experience. Ricketts, Dichio, O'Brien, Robbo, Robert, Tebeily all played in the EPL. Even Brennan and Welsch did.

Yohan
11-14-2012, 07:47 PM
BTW - TFC (this past summer - under Mariner) did actually trial a promising young Italian player (plying his trade in Italy). He's represented Italy at every level except the senior team, and done well and is still considered a prospect in Italy.

Can't divulge any more details as I promised I wouldn't, but the source was direct from a family member of the player in Toronto. I'm not sure what came of it, I sort of forgot about it until now. I'll have to ask.
There was also ex Lecce fullback Alberto Giuliatto who trialed in the summer.

Yohan
11-14-2012, 07:53 PM
Actually a number of the players brought in had top flight experience. Ricketts, Dichio, O'Brien, Robbo, Robert, Tebeily all played in the EPL. Even Brennan and Welsch did.

Ronnie O'Brien played in Middlesborough reserves according to wiki

Johann Smith did get few games for Bolton

DoubleUp
11-14-2012, 08:00 PM
The players Toronto scout are weak. I dont even trust them to trial properly.

brad
11-14-2012, 08:07 PM
Ronnie O'Brien played in Middlesborough reserves according to wiki

Johann Smith did get few games for Bolton

Right - my bad on O'Brein. Smith only had one game I think.

We also trial Jorge Andrade, Boa Morte, Huckerby, Joao Pinto, Savo Milosevic, Kiki Musampa and probably many others

Look -I'm not defending the team, our track record is in defensible. O e thing you can't say though is that we haven't given a look at players with top flight experience.

Looking at such players is no way to build an MLS side IMHO. I have zero envy that Montreal are looking at guys that have played I the Serie A

I envy teams like Seattle that put together a competitive, exciting team from day one, and RSL that turned around on the back of a bunch of unknown but fantastic players.

Yohan
11-14-2012, 08:36 PM
Looking at such players is no way to build an MLS side IMHO. I have zero envy that Montreal are looking at guys that have played I the Serie A

I envy teams like Seattle that put together a competitive, exciting team from day one, and RSL that turned around on the back of a bunch of unknown but fantastic players.
You are only as good as your US/Canadian domestics and your depth.

ag futbol
11-14-2012, 09:49 PM
You are only as good as your US/Canadian domestics and your depth.
Well... and your internationals. Everyone's counting on the foreign talent to fill the skilled positions for the most part.

True, domestics the majority of your team, so can't win without strong ones... but at the same time, hard to take that final step without a good striker or AM.

Yohan
11-14-2012, 09:56 PM
Well... and your internationals. Everyone's counting on the foreign talent to fill the skilled positions for the most part.

True, domestics the majority of your team, so can't win without strong ones... but at the same time, hard to take that final step without a good striker or AM.

San Jose and Kansas City begs to differ... Yes, you need some good internationals to put your team over the top, but the foundation is laid with solid domestic MLSers.

jabbronies
11-14-2012, 09:56 PM
Nobody's doing that.

We do need to look at what other MLS teams are doing.

Its kind of hilarious reading all these people being defensive about TFC. TFC is the worst run team in the league. Obviously people will look up to other teams.

I should've clarified what I meant.

I was referring to the first post of having a couple people trail with the team and consider it "moving forward"
It's happened before with Vancouver. One small move on the pitch and TFC should be emulating what was done because it is apparently moving that team forward.

Why can't people just post news about another team without having to compare it to TFC.

To swing back to your point - I agree TFC has sooooooo many problems. It is pretty unique in the MLS save maybe 1 other team (see Chivas). The dynamic of the FO, or lack there of, is also unique in MLS (Big dollar owner spending lots of cash but producing nothing). So to look at what other teams are doing (save LA or Seattle) may not be the right solution to the current situation at this club.

DoubleUp
11-14-2012, 10:37 PM
People around here love to make excuses for TFC's crapiness.

Greatest Ripoff
11-15-2012, 12:47 AM
San Jose and Kansas City begs to differ... Yes, you need some good internationals to put your team over the top, but the foundation is laid with solid domestic MLSers.

Really? KC first team is built around internationals. Over half of KC's top 11 players in minutes played were internationals.

Paulo Nagamura
Júlio César
Aurélien Collin
Roger Espinoza
Kei Kamara (1st in goals scored, second in assists)
Jimmy Nielsen (Captain)

These players didn't put them over the top, they made the team.

Yohan
11-15-2012, 01:08 AM
Really? KC first team is built around internationals. Over half of KC's top 11 players in minutes played were internationals.

Paulo Nagamura
Júlio César
Aurélien Collin
Roger Espinoza
Kei Kamara (1st in goals scored, second in assists)
Jimmy Nielsen (Captain)

These players didn't put them over the top, they made the team.

Kei Kamara came through NCAA. I don't count him as an International. Same with Roger Espinoza. Nagamura is a career MLSer since 2005, who is right now first off the bench kinda player for KC (behind Zusi, Cesar and Espinoza). I don't rate him very much.

So I'll give you Collin, Julio Cesar and Nielsen. And Nielsen is a great GK, but KC could have gotten an American keeper, esp when they got rid of Kevin Hartman who is probably the best keeper to stay in MLS

Shakes McQueen
11-15-2012, 02:53 AM
People around here love to make excuses for TFC's crapiness.

If you have a specific point made by someone, that you'd like to take issue with, then do that. Leave the intentionally vague flamebait at home.

- Scott

brad
11-15-2012, 08:03 AM
Well... and your internationals. Everyone's counting on the foreign talent to fill the skilled positions for the most part.

True, domestics the majority of your team, so can't win without strong ones... but at the same time, hard to take that final step without a good striker or AM.

We've done pretty well for the most part in bringing in one of those game changers - Guevera, DeRo, Koevermans. We've just never surrounded them with a better quality supporting cast, or put the two together, and never put together a good AM and good striker at the same time.

brad
11-15-2012, 08:13 AM
We are crap, but Montreal aren't looking too shiny to me. They are looking like a club potentially following a similar path to us. Too much player power in the dressing room, firing coaches, players dictating the tactics, direct owner interfernce on player selections, chasing a European style while ignoring the North American game.

I do agree with the person that we don't which way it will go - but i am skeptical at this point. I just don't get the envy some have for them, unless maybe it's because some folks are fans of the Italian league and are jealous that we aren't pulling players from there. I'd much rather see our focus on building a solid core of North Americans and looking for some gems in Central/South America as opposed to prime European locations.

Phil
11-15-2012, 09:16 AM
My point has been as bad as we are right now, its impossible for me to think that Montreal scouting players without a head coach is considered the right path.

Yes they may be trying to build a system and all but it seems the cart is before the horse in so many ways and its still a gamble. All anyone can say is they *think* Montreal will do better next year.

Nothing to make bold proclaimations on. There are a number of MLS teams in a bit of dissary right now. TFC, Chivas, NE, Portland are looking shaky on the field as are Philly. NYRB may have a Hans hangover too, I hear he did some pretty damaging things to that club. Montreal with their coaching issues, meddling owner and aging players is a concern as is Vancouver with all their mid season turmoil and weaker 2nd half (credit to them for making the playoffs though).

narduch
11-15-2012, 09:20 AM
Nothing to make bold proclaimations on.

I disagree. Considering Cochrane + Mariner's track record, it isn't bold at all to predict we will once again be one of the worst teams in the league.

DoubleUp
11-15-2012, 10:03 AM
If you have a specific point made by someone, that you'd like to take issue with, then do that. Leave the intentionally vague flamebait at home.

- Scott


Who the cap fits, let them wear it.:rolleyes:

ag futbol
11-15-2012, 11:38 AM
San Jose and Kansas City begs to differ... Yes, you need some good internationals to put your team over the top, but the foundation is laid with solid domestic MLSers.
I think we are saying the same thing here.

Bernardez and Colin have been key to each of their respective teams. We saw the impact when Bernardez went down in the playoffs and Opara wasn't closing the gaps as quickly which left opportunity for LA.

West220Side
11-15-2012, 11:53 AM
If Montreal wants to be the place old retiring Serie A players go to die, let them?
Boo-who.

OfficeGuy
11-15-2012, 03:22 PM
was interesting to see this on tiwtter: - http://www.goal.com/en-ca/match/97584/fiorentina-vs-montreal-impact/play-by-play -

despite all the saputo talk - they seem to be giving fans more don't you think....

almost making playoffs....Nesta signing....playing this away game....

Yohan
11-15-2012, 07:42 PM
Montreal beat Fiorentina 1-0

http://www.goal.com/en-ca/match/97584/fiorentina-vs-montreal-impact/lineup-stats

looks like Fiorentina played at least some of their first team

Ultra & Proud
11-16-2012, 03:15 PM
We've done pretty well for the most part in bringing in one of those game changers - Guevera, DeRo, Koevermans. We've just never surrounded them with a better quality supporting cast, or put the two together, and never put together a good AM and good striker at the same time.

I say this, above every other reason anyone can name, is why we are always on the outside looking in and on the ass half of the table every year. All comes down to our number one problem since day one with this franchise; poor spending. We load up on big(ger) contracts, justifiable or not is another story, and it always leaves us thin on depth and thin throughout the starting XI in certain areas. We never get players like a Le Toux or a Grabavoy who come in at under $150k. Instead we get Cann at roughly that rate and he is on the bench with Avila, who makes more than Grabavoy and isn't half the player. That right there is why we're f*cked.

Yohan
11-16-2012, 03:16 PM
I say this, above every other reason anyone can name, is why we are always on the outside looking in and on the ass half of the table every year. All comes down to our number one problem since day one with this franchise; poor spending. We load up on big(ger) contracts, justifiable or not is another story, and it always leaves us thin on depth and thin throughout the starting XI in certain areas. We never get players like a Le Toux or a Grabavoy who come in at under $150k. Instead we get Cann at roughly that rate and he is on the bench with Avila, who makes more than Grabavoy and isn't half the player. That right there is why we're f*cked.
To be fair, Grabavoy and Avila are two totally different players

Ultra & Proud
11-16-2012, 03:54 PM
To be fair, Grabavoy and Avila are two totally different players

True, but a good team wouldn't pay a player like Avila a wage that puts him in with the likes of Le Toux, Grabavoy, Mike Magee, etc.

I know it's a GA thing and that's the downfall of that system. Not every GA player will be worth their rate when they come off the GA books and that's why they sometimes end up nowhere. What I mean is that if we were to keep Avila (like some folks want) and pay him what he would cost this year then we fall right back into the hole of cap mismanagement that f*cks us up yearly. Other teams get good (some great) players on sub $150K contracts. If we want to compete in this league and not just have 'a good run' like we do in most years then crumble during the first time there is an injury/suspension/international call up period then that's what we have to be aiming at doing too.

Yohan
11-16-2012, 04:37 PM
True, but a good team wouldn't pay a player like Avila a wage that puts him in with the likes of Le Toux, Grabavoy, Mike Magee, etc.

I know it's a GA thing and that's the downfall of that system. Not every GA player will be worth their rate when they come off the GA books and that's why they sometimes end up nowhere. What I mean is that if we were to keep Avila (like some folks want) and pay him what he would cost this year then we fall right back into the hole of cap mismanagement that f*cks us up yearly. Other teams get good (some great) players on sub $150K contracts. If we want to compete in this league and not just have 'a good run' like we do in most years then crumble during the first time there is an injury/suspension/international call up period then that's what we have to be aiming at doing too.

The purpose of GA is not necessarily for the benefit of individual teams... It's for enticing talented NCAA players to not bolt to Europe and keep the talent in MLS

Ultra & Proud
11-16-2012, 04:50 PM
The purpose of GA is not necessarily for the benefit of individual teams... It's for enticing talented NCAA players to not bolt to Europe and keep the talent in MLS

And it works well in that regard however, their pay scale usually means that the players are well paid when they graduate from GA and may have priced themselves out of this league. Problem is that some of them can't really go anywhere else laterally or higher. For every Stephan Frei or Brek Shea you will inevitably get your Wiedemans and your Kirks who never pan out at that pay level and end up on the NASL/USL scrap heap (not that Wiedeman is there yet but I expect him to be). I am not saying Avila is in the Wiedeman level of shite but he surely doesn't deserve to be in the solid MLSer pay scale of $125-$150k either.

Cashcleaner
11-16-2012, 07:54 PM
You are aware we have trialed all kinds of European players too, right?

Can we stick to criticizing the team for real and relevant stuff, please? There's more than enough of it to go around.

- Scott

Agreed. None of this news is particularly shocking. Perhaps more importantly - who is gonna coach this team?

Toronto
11-16-2012, 10:04 PM
Saputo is dangerously on the road to turning Montreal into another Chivas USA

With no proof of that actually happening, I can respond by saying he is heroically on the on the road to turning Montreal in the AC Milan of the MLS. :drinking:


Now, for some here, even after the season we had, the kool aid drinking protecting the FO continues.... BTW these would be the same people banging the drums saying stuff like "Beating Florentina on the road is the greatest soccer win in Canadian soccer history"

Ya.

jazzy
11-16-2012, 11:09 PM
I disagree. Considering Cochrane + Mariner's track record, it isn't bold at all to predict we will once again be one of the worst teams in the league.

this is a for me a valid point. I can't quite grasp Mariner and Cochrane hiring and firing future players,....esp after the non=tactical games I've seen and their total misuse of our players. I'm afraid we are again a team without a realist long term vision ............again. Sorry but these two simply aren't qualified for the job........this week just watch how the Jays made us all feel.....it can't be done half assed on the cheap

jazzy
11-16-2012, 11:22 PM
True, but a good team wouldn't pay a player like Avila a wage that puts him in with the likes of Le Toux, Grabavoy, Mike Magee, etc.

I know it's a GA thing and that's the downfall of that system. Not every GA player will be worth their rate when they come off the GA books and that's why they sometimes end up nowhere. What I mean is that if we were to keep Avila (like some folks want) and pay him what he would cost this year then we fall right back into the hole of cap mismanagement that f*cks us up yearly. Other teams get good (some great) players on sub $150K contracts. If we want to compete in this league and not just have 'a good run' like we do in most years then crumble during the first time there is an injury/suspension/international call up period then that's what we have to be aiming at doing too.

exactly why we should be nurturing Morgan , henry etc...virtually ignored lately ...and I have less hope for the future from present mgmt

Shakes McQueen
11-17-2012, 06:56 AM
Who the cap fits, let them wear it.:rolleyes:

Either have the courage and conviction to take a specific person to task for something they specifically said, or keep the non-specific antagonism to yourself. I don't have time for hiding behind the plausible deniability of weasel language like "some people...", without so much as a quote to substantiate such an attack.

I fully support passionate disagreement here, with the expectation that people will substantiate their points. Vague "apologist" accusations do not fall within this spectrum.

Consider this a friendly warning.

- Scott

Fort York Redcoat
11-17-2012, 11:28 AM
With no proof of that actually happening, I can respond by saying he is heroically on the on the road to turning Montreal in the AC Milan of the MLS. :drinking:


Now, for some here, even after the season we had, the kool aid drinking protecting the FO continues.... BTW these would be the same people banging the drums saying stuff like "Beating Florentina on the road is the greatest soccer win in Canadian soccer history"

Ya.

Sorry, who's saying that? Can we get a quote or is this more rampant hyperbole to try and make a point?

Shakes McQueen
11-17-2012, 12:29 PM
Now, for some here, even after the season we had, the kool aid drinking protecting the FO continues.... BTW these would be the same people banging the drums saying stuff like "Beating Florentina on the road is the greatest soccer win in Canadian soccer history"

Ya.

See my message to DoubleUp, and either heed it, or go cast your lazy, non-specific aspersions somewhere else.

Thanks.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
11-17-2012, 12:31 PM
Sorry, who's saying that?

The welterweight champion of the Strawman Boxing League.

- Scott

Redpunkfiddle
11-17-2012, 01:15 PM
The welterweight champion of the Strawman Boxing League.

- Scott

Glad to see someone carries the torch of naming strawman.

Shakes McQueen
11-17-2012, 02:43 PM
Glad to see someone carries the torch of naming strawman.

When the concept actually applies, absolutely.

- Scott

DoubleUp
11-18-2012, 01:24 AM
Either have the courage and conviction to take a specific person to task for something they specifically said, or keep the non-specific antagonism to yourself. I don't have time for hiding behind the plausible deniability of weasel language like "some people...", without so much as a quote to substantiate such an attack.

I fully support passionate disagreement here, with the expectation that people will substantiate their points. Vague "apologist" accusations do not fall within this spectrum.



Consider this a friendly warning.

- Scott
your taking yourself too seriously, if only the FO displayed that type of zeal we might be actually getting somewhere.

Once again "if doesn't apply let it fly":yessir:

Shakes McQueen
11-18-2012, 05:33 AM
your taking yourself too seriously,

I'm a moderator, asking you to refrain from some specific behaviour.

- Scott

trane
11-18-2012, 06:25 AM
hahahahhaha. I am reading this and it is funny to see supporters of a misrably failed team, TFC, take shots at two teams, Vancouver and Montreal who in year two and one, are far ahead of TFC, and will be for the forseable future. Vancouver made he playoffs in year two, when was the last time we made the playoffs?Montreal was a better team this year then we have ever been, in a better league and we can still make claims how they are going to implode.

This is about reality not about "loving" other teams, it is about the reality of wins and losses and reaching goals. TFC has done nothing in 7 years, and yet we cannot admit that other teams have better structures. Montreal's first year was a success, it put a very competitieve team together, and people are claiming it will implode and tourn into a Chivas? Come on. I was not aware that supporters were supposed to be part of the FO marketing arm.

Lets just start calling this team what it is Toronto Maple Leafes FC. Same ownership, same shit, from top to bottom.

Oldtimer
11-18-2012, 08:10 AM
hahahahhaha. I am reading this and it is funny to see supporters of a misrably failed team, TFC, take shots at two teams, Vancouver and Montreal who in year two and one, are far ahead of TFC,


Some people are taking this thread way too seriously. Just because TFC's management has been crap (and I'm in no way cheerleading the crap leadership of this crap franchise--as you well know), doesn't automatically mean that Montreal's is great. Just because Joey uses his connections to get some past-their-prime and should-be-retired Serie A players doesn't automatically mean that everything he does is great.

The fact that Joey has gone through 11 coaches in 10 years suggests major mismanagement more like Tom Anselmi does than genius management. I can't believe that a coach like Jesse Marsch, who has the potential to be a truly great coach, was let go by Saputo. To say that Montreal is "moving forward" is laughable.

tfcleeds
11-18-2012, 10:02 AM
^Agreed. Montreal finished above us this season (and probably will next, as long as Mariner and Cochrane are in charge), and that's all it was/is, really. The whole premise of this entire thread, that Montreal is somehow doing a better job because they brought in a couple of triallists, is way off kilter. You have to question the long-term sustainability of Joey's "vision" based on a lot of the moves he's made. In 5 years, it will be interesting to see how far they've really progressed, if at all.

Shakes McQueen
11-18-2012, 10:20 AM
But Toronto FC have been even worse, which through some tortured logic means all of TFC's fans aren't allowed to offer any opinion on Montreal (or any other team) other than slobbering admiration - even if your criticism comes with the tacit acknowledgement of our team's deep issues. That makes you part of the marketing department, even if it's the worst marketing department in history.

We have been permitted to sit here and trade witty and insightful barbs about how awful our team is for the next several months, or post news stories that demonstrate how much better every other team is but ours, and not one word more. Now run along and feel bad about yourself. Isn't sports awesome?

- Scott

DoubleUp
11-18-2012, 03:47 PM
I'm a moderator, asking you to refrain from some specific behaviour.

- Scott


Yeah I realize that!, congratulations. :hurray:

v00d00daddy
11-18-2012, 05:27 PM
But Toronto FC have been even worse, which through some tortured logic means all of TFC's fans aren't allowed to offer any opinion on Montreal (or any other team) other than slobbering admiration - even if your criticism comes with the tacit acknowledgement of our team's deep issues. That makes you part of the marketing department, even if it's the worst marketing department in history.

We have been permitted to sit here and trade witty and insightful barbs about how awful our team is for the next several months, or post news stories that demonstrate how much better every other team is but ours, and not one word more. Now run along and feel bad about yourself. Isn't sports awesome?

- Scott

I can appreciate the dislike of this threads title but beyond that, where is this slobbering admiration you're talking about.

Montreal is better than us. But because we have some contrived rivalry with them, (we are irrelevant to all teams in MLS) we can't look at them and acknowledge that they're better in their first year than we've been in 6?

I also see a lot of "washed up Serie A players" talk and wonder how many of those washed up players would bump our players out of starting positions. I'd guess that pretty much all of them would. You know why? It's simple....they're better footballers. LOL

But I'll continue with the conspiracy theory I've held about TFC (and Canadian soccer in general for that matter) since day one.

If you replaced the Serie A players with guys like Giggs, Scholes and Sol Campbell and I doubt people would be talking as much shit about the Impact.

Montreal is better than us. So Jesse Marsch was let go. Big deal. So Saputo is a dummy. Big deal. So they have some old players. Big deal.

All that and they're still miles ahead of us.

Masked Man
11-18-2012, 06:21 PM
Its not like Saputo is this super amazing owner, who has done nothing wrong. At the very least, you can say that he cares about his team. Which in the end is something TFC doesnt really have & is the center for all its problems.

How many other owners would promote from within after finishing dead last in the entire league? How many would keep a guy as president despite the fact that the guy has done nothing but help turn the franchise into a dysfunctional loser, with no real clear direction? Not anyone who cares about the results & actually has a vested interest in improving.

Oldtimer
11-18-2012, 07:06 PM
Yeah I realize that!, congratulations. :hurray: It's not obvious that you did, it looked like you had lost his point. At least to most of us around here.

Oldtimer
11-18-2012, 07:12 PM
About Saputo, I love his passion. His meddling is stupid. His team is only better than TFC because TFC is so, so bad. The Impact are a bad team with disfunctional management. Why not hold up RSL, KC, or even DC?

Shakes McQueen
11-18-2012, 07:46 PM
Montreal is better than us. But because we have some contrived rivalry with them, (we are irrelevant to all teams in MLS) we can't look at them and acknowledge that they're better in their first year than we've been in 6?

Why does all of this stuff have to be a mutually exclusive, one-or-the-other, choice? It isn't cognitively dissonant to say a) our team is and has been a brutal shitshow, b) Montreal were clearly and empirically better than we've been this year, but c) their FO antics still have some warning signs of a shitshow that may one day rival us?

You have to wallow non-stop in the fetid waters of what a pile of suck-ass TFC are, or risk casually being called a FO marketing stooge or apologist. That was my point.


All that and they're still miles ahead of us.

This illustrates my point. Yeah, they are still currently a better team than ours. So what? You can have a community discussion about Montreal's problems without necessarily dropping the acknowledgement (or even needing to repeatedly mention), that we are worse. We spend 99% of the remaining time talking non-stop about our team's issues.

- Scott

v00d00daddy
11-18-2012, 08:21 PM
Why does all of this stuff have to be a mutually exclusive, one-or-the-other, choice? It isn't cognitively dissonant to say a) our team is and has been a brutal shitshow, b) Montreal were clearly and empirically better than we've been this year, but c) their FO antics still have some warning signs of a shitshow that may one day rival us?

You have to wallow non-stop in the fetid waters of what a pile of suck-ass TFC are, or risk casually being called a FO marketing stooge or apologist. That was my point.



This illustrates my point. Yeah, they are still currently a better team than ours. So what? You can have a community discussion about Montreal's problems without necessarily dropping the acknowledgement (or even needing to repeatedly mention), that we are worse. We spend 99% of the remaining time talking non-stop about our team's issues.

- Scott

It's a personal thing for me and it's simple. Montreal should NOT be better than us.

But since they are, I find it incredibly irritating that people can still sit there and say "yeah we suck. so what? Montreal sucks too".

And that irritates me for a couple of reasons:

1. I don't mind homerism....but when our team is as messed up as it is, there should be nobody getting their undies in a bunch when people point out that Montreal is better than us and we certainly shouldn't be critical of any other team. None.

2. People are critical of Montreal because of what exactly?

Because they have a meddling owner? So what? He has high expectations and has to deal with a fan base that will not come to games unless they feel they're being offered a decent product.

Because they fired their coach? So what? Montreal expected to make the playoffs this year. It didn't happen and they held somebody accountable. Imagine that.

Because they have old players? So what? They got a lot out of those players and those players are on much better salaries than anybody would have imagined.

So yes....it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, one or the other choice. I just don't see the harm in TFC and their supporters using other MLS team (even middling ones) as a measuring stick when it comes to whether or not TFC is doing things right.

But for arguments sake here are a couple of thoughts that people can read independent of one another or together...makes no difference.

TFC was the worst team in this league last year and they've been terrible since day one and they've done nothing to improve this team. In fact, they've kept on a management team that has killed the golden goose of hype and attendance, and they promoted a terrible general manager to the position of head coach (where he has been even worse than he was at player acquisition)

Montreal did well for a first year team but were not satisfied with their results and have made changes in an attempt to be even better next year.

I, as a TFC supporter, have no business looking down my nose at any other team in this league. Not even Chivas. I don't care if it's Montreal or Vancouver, and I don't care how many old players they have or how many coaches they fire.

nfitz
11-18-2012, 09:40 PM
^Agreed. Montreal finished above us this season (and probably will next, as long as Mariner and Cochrane are in charge)Will they finish above us? We played Montreal 5 times last seasons, with 2 wins, 2 draws, and a loss. These are the only Montreal games I saw last season (4 of them in person). They never looked like a good team ... and the one time they beat us in Montreal, I thought both teams looked like crap.

I don't see that Montreal would necessarily be any better than us next season - it was hard to see how they were any better than us this season based on the games I saw. Particularly with the Mayor McCheese interfering all the time.

At the same time ... do we really want a thread like this, which must give any UM02 members a thrill every time they read it?

tfcleeds
11-18-2012, 09:56 PM
They finished above us in the standings - by any measuring stick you use, points, wins, losses, goals scored, goals against, heck - even entertainment value - they were better than us this past season. I don't see how that can be disputed. True, head to head against them, we didn't do too badly. Now if we played them all the time? Perhaps it's too bad that we can't - we might actually have a decent season for once.

ag futbol
11-18-2012, 11:32 PM
While I can somewhat see why people would be skeptical of what Montreal is going to do next season due to the old roster and meddling owner I think it’s mostly being overdone.

First, if we look at their track record in USL, it’s actually pretty damn good. Between 2000-2011 they qualified for the playoffs for eight consecutive years, won the playoffs twice, won supporters shield twice and tied for most points once. They beat TFC in the first year of the voyagers cup and had a good run in the CONCACAF CCL. He might be meddling, but if that’s the results: meddle away.

As for the old element of the roster, I think it’s heavily being compensated for by 1) having a lot of age on defense, where it isn’t as big of a deal 2) having a lot of depth / reasonable contracts. It could bite them in the ass to a certain degree, but so far they look relatively smart. I’d put money on them to make the playoffs for next season with their defensive depth. Forward spot and wide play needs to perform better, that’ll be the challenge for next season.

There also is an element of uncertainty to it, doing something with roster building we haven’t really seen in MLS, but that’s not to say it won’t work.

DoubleUp
11-19-2012, 12:40 AM
It's not obvious that you did, it looked like you had lost his point. At least tomost of us around here.


Well aslong as I was aware!, it means nothing to me, after that.


lets just agree to disagree, on the definition of anal.:Yawn:

jabbronies
11-19-2012, 10:24 AM
About Saputo, I love his passion. His meddling is stupid. His team is only better than TFC because TFC is so, so bad. The Impact are a bad team with dysfunctional management. Why not hold up RSL, KC, or even DC?

This right here.

If you want to compare TFC to a team that is doing it right and moving forward - look at teams that have a tradition of being winners in the MLS - Houston, LA - in more recent years RSL, Seattle

Just because Montreal has brought in a couple of trail players or are playing friendlies against Italian reserves all without having a coach in place doesn't equate to "doing it right"
This is the same short sighted thinking that has gotten TFC to where it is today. Do people here forget how Nathan Sturgis came to TFC?

How does firing a manager after his first season equate to doing it right? Jason Kreis's first season record was far worse than Montreal's first season.
They didn't fire him and ended up being a playoff team ever since. They even won a championship in one of those years.

narduch
11-19-2012, 10:32 AM
This is the same short sighted thinking that has gotten TFC to where it is today. Do people here forget how Nathan Sturgis came to TFC


That's not the same thing at all. Montreal isn't looking for a general manager. They are looking for a coach. The people who build Montreal's team for last season are all still there.

Not every team in the world has the coach deciding on player aquisistion decisions.

Oldtimer
11-19-2012, 11:04 AM
That's not the same thing at all. Montreal isn't looking for a general manager. They are looking for a coach. The people who build Montreal's team for last season are all still there.

Not every team in the world has the coach deciding on player aquisistion decisions.

You mean:

Nick De Santis (former coach, fired by being kicked upstairs) now "sporting director"
Matt Jordan (former GK, no managerial experience) now "director of soccer operations"
and the legendary Adam Braz (former TFC and Impact defender) now "Team Manager"

Yeah, sure looks fantastic :facepalm:

Now let me draw the paralells to TFC mismanagement:

(1) Vague job descriptions, nobody knows who does what
(2) A huge lack of experience in many of the top positions
(3) A former coach getting kicked upstairs, to interfere with the current coach's decisions
(4) More than 1 coach per season
(5) A meddlesome upper manager (in their case who is also the owner)

Gotta love that awesome Montreal Impact :facepalm:

Now point out to me where on their board the LA Galaxy fans are talking up how great Montreal is, and how they better watch out next year. :sosp:

narduch
11-19-2012, 11:09 AM
Hasn't De Santis been running the show there for years? Are TFC fans really going to argue that a team that was one of the best run A-League/USL/NASL teams and had one of the best MLS expansion seasons in the new era of the league is as poorly run as TFC?

Its laughable how defensive TFC fans are getting over this.

In their expansion season they had a better season than we've had in any of our 6 seasons.

As for meddlesome owners, I wonder what Dallas Maverick fans think of Mark Cuban. Maybe if we had this kind of impatience Mo Johnston would have been fired in 2008 instead of 2010, when he should have been fired.

Oldtimer
11-19-2012, 11:13 AM
Hasn't De Santis been running the show there for years?

Its laughable how defensive TFC fans are getting over this.

In their expansion season they had a better season than we've had in any of our 6 seasons.

As for meddlesome owners, I wonder what Dallas Maverick fans think of Mark Cuban. Maybe if we had this kind of impatience Mo Johnston would have been fired in 2008 instead of 2010, when he should have been fired.

... and they fired the coach who brought them that good season. Well done!

...or maybe Adam Braz is responsible for that "great" season. Yes, that's it!

narduch
11-19-2012, 11:19 AM
... and they fired the coach who brought them that good season. Well done!

...or maybe Adam Braz is responsible for that "great" season. Yes, that's it!

Did Marsch sign all the players? I doubt it.

What does Braz have to do with anything? It sounds like his job is similar to the role Earl Cochrane was suppose to have at TFC (ie. a freaking travel agent). Just because you may have hated him as a player adds nothing to your argument. It makes your arguement look stupid.

But keep clinging on to this if it makes you feel better.

v00d00daddy
11-19-2012, 11:26 AM
... and they fired the coach who brought them that good season. Well done!

...or maybe Adam Braz is responsible for that "great" season. Yes, that's it!

They fired him because:

A) they have higher expectations than Marsch was able to deliver

B) they have players not suited to his coaching style.

Simple really. They got decent results last year and they want better this year

Oldtimer
11-19-2012, 11:29 AM
Simple really. They got decent results last year and they want better this year

11 coaches in 10 years. After a while you stop blaming the coach and look at the man behind the curtain.

Yes, Montreal's shade of crap is less disgusting than TFC. They still missed the playoffs. Plus nobody has really answered the question as to why we should admire them instead of RSL.

narduch
11-19-2012, 11:30 AM
Simple really. They got decent results last year and they want better this year

Meanwhile TFC hopes against all hope that the idiots in charge will somehow turn things around, despite all the glaring signs that they have no clue what they are doing.

Fort York Redcoat
11-19-2012, 11:32 AM
11 coaches in 10 years. After a while you stop blaming the coach and look at the man behind the curtain.

Yes, Montreal's shade of crap is slightly less disgusting than TFC. But nobody has really answered the question as to why we should admire them instead of RSL.

There are some who regard them as a possible backup. It's predictable those people would find it less unappealing to talk about our only rival so much.

Oldtimer
11-19-2012, 11:32 AM
This right here.

If you want to compare TFC to a team that is doing it right and moving forward - look at teams that have a tradition of being winners in the MLS - Houston, LA - in more recent years RSL, Seattle

Just because Montreal has brought in a couple of trail players or are playing friendlies against Italian reserves all without having a coach in place doesn't equate to "doing it right"


Somebody gets it.

Oldtimer
11-19-2012, 11:34 AM
Meanwhile TFC hopes against all hope that the idiots in charge will somehow turn things around, despite all the glaring signs that they have no clue what they are doing.

No question TFC is worse.

narduch
11-19-2012, 11:34 AM
There are some who regard them as a possible backup. It's predictable those people would find it less unappealing to talk about our only rival so much.

I would never cheer for Montreal, ever. So this arguement is totally invalid.

I do get a good laugh at how defensive some TFC fans are.

Fort York Redcoat
11-19-2012, 11:41 AM
I would never cheer for Montreal, ever. So this arguement is totally invalid.

I do get a good laugh at how defensive some TFC fans are.

You don't count yourself among the some I refer. That makes it invalid to you, laughing boy. You're not the only one on the internetz.

narduch
11-19-2012, 11:43 AM
You don't count yourself among the some I refer. That makes it invalid to you, laughing boy. You're not the only one on the internetz.

You're a mod. Do you really need to be a dick?

But its par for the course for you so I really shouldn't expect better.

ag futbol
11-19-2012, 01:17 PM
11 coaches in 10 years. After a while you stop blaming the coach and look at the man behind the curtain.

But really, who cares about the number of coaches? The results were good.

I thought Marsh was decent enough, but depending on how things worked behind the scenes his genius could easily have been over stated. He made some curious moves, like benching Bernier to start the year, that really didn't sit well with with the more experienced veteran players on the team. It also seemed like he had issues getting guys like Mapp, Syassi, and Arnaud to play up to the level of their teammates, yet he looked for leadership from two of those guys.

Oldtimer
11-19-2012, 01:42 PM
But really, who cares about the number of coaches? The results were good.



Funny how everyone complains about the number of coaches TFC has had, but when it's Montreal it's A-OK, even brilliant!

The results were better than TFC, the Worst Team Ever in MLS, but saying the results were "good" is hyperbole.

Look at Seattle in their first season in MLS:
30 games played
12 wins (win 40%)
7 losses (lose 23%)
11 ties
4th in the hard-to-play-in West
Playoffs in year 1

Now look at Montreal:
34 games played
12 wins (win 35%)
16 losses (lose 47%)
6 ties
7th in the easier East
missed the playoffs

lesson: everyone looks fantastic compared to TFC, but let's look at the best in the league to envy.

narduch
11-19-2012, 01:46 PM
lesson: everyone looks fantastic compared to TFC, but let's look at the best in the league to envy.

I see the target has moved.

First it was "Montreal is just as bad as Toronto".

Because that arguement was easily shown to be flawed, it has moved to "lets try to be like the even better teams". Well, duh. Nobody here would disagree with that.

Oldtimer
11-19-2012, 03:17 PM
I see the target has moved.

First it was "Montreal is just as bad as Toronto".

Because that arguement was easily shown to be flawed, it has moved to "lets try to be like the even better teams". Well, duh. Nobody here would disagree with that.

I've been consistent.

Montreal is a poor team. I never said that it was equal in suckiness to Toronto, here's my first post in this thread:


We had a thread like this one about how amazing Vancouver's original setup was and how they were going to make the playoffs in year 1.

They failed miserably, and after some disfunction similar to TFC blew up that "amazing" setup up and now barely squeaked into the playoffs a year later, hardly inspiring.

When your team sucks as badly as TFC has, any other team looks amazing. However, I'd rather emulate the better teams in MLS instead of Montreal, or Vancouver for that matter. They are hardly examples.

I'm glad you now agree. :)

ag futbol
11-19-2012, 03:24 PM
Funny how everyone complains about the number of coaches TFC has had, but when it's Montreal it's A-OK, even brilliant!

The results were better than TFC, the Worst Team Ever in MLS, but saying the results were "good" is hyperbole.

Look at Seattle in their first season in MLS:
30 games played
12 wins (win 40%)
7 losses (lose 23%)
11 ties
4th in the hard-to-play-in West
Playoffs in year 1

Now look at Montreal:
34 games played
12 wins (win 35%)
16 losses (lose 47%)
6 ties
7th in the easier East
missed the playoffs

lesson: everyone looks fantastic compared to TFC, but let's look at the best in the league to envy.
whoa, whoa, whoa... wait a second.

Is 40 + points for their first year in the league not a good result? I disagree with that.

I also think the characterization of the east being worse than the west is off base. Two teams with 40+ points this year in the East missed the playoffs. Let's not forget the east has an extra team that needs to be jumped if you want to place in the top five to make the playoffs.

As for complaining about the number of coaches TFC has, well it's obvious people do that because the results have been poor. Montreal in USL and thus far in MLS has not had bad results. That's the difference.

I'm not sure if I would describe what we are talking about here as "admiration" but rather closer to annoyance. This franchise has trotted excuses out about a whole hoist of things in their history, many of those same problems / conditions apply to clubs like Montreal and Vancouver, and in the end they just seem to blow right through them while we twiddle our fingers.

narduch
11-19-2012, 03:26 PM
I'm glad you now agree. :)

Don't be a fucking douchebag acting like you've won some debate here. Because you haven't at all.

tfcleeds
11-19-2012, 03:28 PM
Not sure why I'm posting this here, or why I've decided to come forward now to say this, but the truth is, I have a major skeleton in my closet. Back in the pre-TFC days, in the A-league days specifically - I followed (supported doesn't sound like quite the right word) - the (shudder)......Impact :hide:

Oldtimer
11-19-2012, 03:40 PM
Don't be a fucking douchebag acting like you've won some debate here. Because you haven't at all.

hahaha

I'm not interested in being king of the interwebs.

I just love it when people who act like everyone else is stupid descend to insults when their own self-contradictory position is shown to them in black and white.

Anyways it was a friendly point, hence the smiley, too bad you didn't want to respond in kind.

Oldtimer
11-19-2012, 03:46 PM
Not sure why I'm posting this here, or why I've decided to come forward now to say this, but the truth is, I have a major skeleton in my closet. Back in the pre-TFC days, in the A-league days specifically - I followed (supported doesn't sound like quite the right word) - the (shudder)......Impact :hide:

I was a DC United fan before TFC. Loved their latino style of play... and winning.
For D2 I went to Toronto Lynx games.

narduch
11-19-2012, 03:47 PM
I just love it when people who act like everyone else is stupid descend to insults when their own self-contradictory position is shown to them in black and white.


There was no contradiction at all. Are you this obtuse on purpose?

I'm going to have to start ignoring your posts. You have always had shaky logic to begin with. But your smugness about it is annoying.

Oldtimer
11-19-2012, 03:51 PM
There was no contradiction at all. Are you this obtuse on purpose?

I'm going to have to start ignoring your posts. You have always had shaky logic to begin with. But your smugness about it is annoying.

You said that the target had moved. I proved that was a false accusation. Nothing smug about it at all. (hint, insulting people doesn't help you win friends and influence people, try to respond without the ad hominem attacks).

tfcleeds
11-19-2012, 03:53 PM
I was a DC United fan before TFC. Loved their latino style of play... and winning.For D2 I went to Toronto Lynx games.In MLS pre-TFC was a casual Revs fan. Never really got into the Lynx for some reason.

narduch
11-19-2012, 04:09 PM
whoa, whoa, whoa... wait a second.

Is 40 + points for their first year in the league not a good result? I disagree with that.

I also think the characterization of the east being worse than the west is off base. Two teams with 40+ points this year in the East missed the playoffs. Let's not forget the east has an extra team that needs to be jumped if you want to place in the top five to make the playoffs.

As for complaining about the number of coaches TFC has, well it's obvious people do that because the results have been poor. Montreal in USL and thus far in MLS has not had bad results. That's the difference.

I'm not sure if I would describe what we are talking about here as "admiration" but rather closer to annoyance. This franchise has trotted excuses out about a whole hoist of things in their history, many of those same problems / conditions apply to clubs like Montreal and Vancouver, and in the end they just seem to blow right through them while we twiddle our fingers.

Its not fair to only compare Montreal's fist MLS season to only Seattle. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but of all the expansion teams since the league retracted the 2 Florida teams, I think Montreal had the 2nd best season, being only behind Seattle. None of RSL, Chivas, TFC, San Jose, Portland or Philly debuted as well.

Like I said earlier, teams all over the world tend to cycle through coaches until they hit the right one. This happens everywhere.

The move to turf Marsch can only really be judged by who his replacement is.

Oldtimer
11-19-2012, 04:15 PM
In MLS pre-TFC was a casual Revs fan. Never really got into the Lynx for some reason.

I don't blame you one bit. Few people did. In fact, almost no-one knew they existed. Poor underfunded ownership didn't help.
The only supporters were about a dozen U-Sector, who formed the original group.

DC played a very attractive style of football for the era. Having the over-hyped Freddy Adu also gave them some real profile. Plus they had the only decent supporters group (the Barra Brava) at the time. It was a lot of fun. I was tentatively planning a trip to DC when TFC was announced, and I cancelled my plans.

tfcleeds
11-19-2012, 04:39 PM
I don't blame you one bit. Few people did. In fact, almost no-one knew they existed. Poor underfunded ownership didn't help.The only supporters were about a dozen U-Sector, who formed the original group.Yeah, for myself, I think it boils down to the fact that I adopted the old Montreal Supra as my CSL club back in the day (why? I don't know, I was an Alex Bunbury fan?) so when the A-League became the top tier of football in Canada, I simply kept on supporting the Impact. Anyways, not to hijack the thread, I only mentioned it as the issue of being neutral in our assessment of the direction the Impact are going in was brought up - and I actually DID used to follow them somewhat, way back when, haha.

Oldtimer
11-19-2012, 05:02 PM
Yeah, for myself, I think it boils down to the fact that I adopted the old Montreal Supra as my CSL club back in the day (why? I don't know, I was an Alex Bunbury fan?) so when the A-League became the top tier of football in Canada, I simply kept on supporting the Impact. Anyways, not to hijack the thread, I only mentioned it as the issue of being neutral in our assessment of the direction the Impact are going in was brought up - and I actually DID used to follow them somewhat, way back when, haha.

No problem. Having some perspective helps, you can help us all out. Glad you're on the board.

tfc2008
11-19-2012, 07:46 PM
Here everyone laugh with other teams, but they do something for 2013 and wat do TFC nothing.

trane
11-19-2012, 08:06 PM
They fired him because:

A) they have higher expectations than Marsch was able to deliver

B) they have players not suited to his coaching style.

Simple really. They got decent results last year and they want better this year

I agree. As you see I have stopped posting, because their world view as far as football is opposed to mine.

Toronto
11-20-2012, 06:11 PM
You mean:

Nick De Santis (former coach, fired by being kicked upstairs) now "sporting director"
Matt Jordan (former GK, no managerial experience) now "director of soccer operations"
and the legendary Adam Braz (former TFC and Impact defender) now "Team Manager"

Yeah, sure looks fantastic :facepalm:

Now let me draw the paralells to TFC mismanagement:

(1) Vague job descriptions, nobody knows who does what
(2) A huge lack of experience in many of the top positions
(3) A former coach getting kicked upstairs, to interfere with the current coach's decisions
(4) More than 1 coach per season
(5) A meddlesome upper manager (in their case who is also the owner)

Gotta love that awesome Montreal Impact :facepalm:

Now point out to me where on their board the LA Galaxy fans are talking up how great Montreal is, and how they better watch out next year. :sosp:

I guess they will when they are told over and over that the Impact are their biggest rivals, they might, especially if Montreal is out pointing them at some point. The reason Montreal is important is that they are our number one rival. Period. If they're not, why bother going to the game there. We do suck and most of us would have enjoyed the season they had in Montreal this year than the one we were fucked slowly through. A what a terrible lay it was.

Let's face it. They have a deeper roster. They have better young players and they seem intent on winning more games next year. I doubt our FO has even goes into the office once a week. Montreal has been on tour. Trying to drum up some new connections. What good BUSINESSES do.

And that's the reality. Montreal is run like a real business. MLSE runs TFC like a country club where the number one rule is that as long as the fools show up, why worry about the business (the on field part) which at the end of the day ensures that more people buy tickets.

In 4 years, TFC will be as relevant as the Blizzard were at the end. Which is SAD beyond belief.

Toronto
11-20-2012, 06:12 PM
YA I'm still fucking angry about 2012.

Oldtimer
11-21-2012, 08:21 AM
I guess they will when they are told over and over that the Impact are their biggest rivals, they might, especially if Montreal is out pointing them at some point. The reason Montreal is important is that they are our number one rival. Period. If they're not, why bother going to the game there. We do suck and most of us would have enjoyed the season they had in Montreal this year than the one we were fucked slowly through. A what a terrible lay it was.

Let's face it. They have a deeper roster. They have better young players and they seem intent on winning more games next year. I doubt our FO has even goes into the office once a week. Montreal has been on tour. Trying to drum up some new connections. What good BUSINESSES do.

And that's the reality. Montreal is run like a real business. MLSE runs TFC like a country club where the number one rule is that as long as the fools show up, why worry about the business (the on field part) which at the end of the day ensures that more people buy tickets.

In 4 years, TFC will be as relevant as the Blizzard were at the end. Which is SAD beyond belief.

It looks like we have two camps:

You're saying we should compare ourselves with Montreal because they are a rival, period.
Those of us who take a different view think we should ignore Montreal and focus on the best teams.

The idea that the Impact are better than TFC, I don't think anyone on this board would disagree, I sure wouldn't.

Shakes McQueen
11-22-2012, 07:36 AM
We do suck and most of us would have enjoyed the season they had in Montreal this year than the one we were fucked slowly through. A what a terrible lay it was.

I would have enjoyed a somewhat-less awful season? No. I'd prefer to have a good team - arguing over whether I'd welcome a lesser degree of terrible seems an insane concept to begin with. TFC finished one win out of the playoff a couple of years ago (after losing that 4-0 match in New York) - did we enjoy that?


Let's face it. They have a deeper roster. They have better young players and they seem intent on winning more games next year. I doubt our FO has even goes into the office once a week. Montreal has been on tour. Trying to drum up some new connections. What good BUSINESSES do.

As it stands right this moment, I don't think there's any question that they have a somewhat better roster than us, because they finished the year with a better record. Of course, if TFC has taught me one thing, it's that MLS rosters can be insanely fluid from one year to the next. Your stuff about TFC coming in to work once a week, is just baseless conjecture. And if we were "on tour" right now, I have this crazy suspicion that it wouldn't do anything to stem one iota of criticism - and rightfully so!

As a fan, I care about wins and losses. I don't care about critiquing how many business connections they have (something we have little to no information about anyway). As long as they entertain me every weekend, the entire team could go back into cryonic sleep for the next six days and not utter a word or do a thing. The problem they have with the fans is a crap team.


And that's the reality. Montreal is run like a real business. MLSE runs TFC like a country club where the number one rule is that as long as the fools show up, why worry about the business (the on field part) which at the end of the day ensures that more people buy tickets

I don't see much evidence that TFC/MLSE "don't worry" about the business of the team. I see lots of evidence that they are incompetent at managing it. That's a massive and meaningful distinction, when it comes to intent.


In 4 years, TFC will be as relevant as the Blizzard were at the end. Which is SAD beyond belief.

If they don't turn things around in a big way, I actually agree on this point. Outside of a small core of supporters who are intensely angry about the state of this team, it's nothing but silence. And silence is worse than anger, because it means more and more people simply don't care. There is no buzz surrounding this team at all, and they have nothing to sell for next season, except an empty, nebulous promise that they will be "better".

One or two more years of this lethargy, and the team could effectively be dead in the water - even if they somehow got better.

- Scott

trane
11-22-2012, 03:16 PM
^ I think we discussed this. I am angry, deeply angry at what MLSE has done with this team. As I think me and you have agreed before, I feel somewhat betrayed at the fact that they have taken advantage too our initial somewhat blind devotion, which was brought on simply because so many of us loved football and this city, and therefore simply having a professional team called Toronto FC was enough. Now we need a team bearing the name of our city which actually knows how to play Football at a semi-decent professional level. Something that has eluded us far to often in the past 7 years.

Shakes McQueen
11-22-2012, 04:02 PM
^ I think we discussed this. I am angry, deeply angry at what MLSE has done with this team. As I think me and you have agreed before, I feel somewhat betrayed at the fact that they have taken advantage too our initial somewhat blind devotion, which was brought on simply because so many of us loved football and this city, and therefore simply having a professional team called Toronto FC was enough. Now we need a team bearing the name of our city which actually knows how to play Football at a semi-decent professional level. Something that has eluded us far to often in the past 7 years.

I think this rings with some truth, but it's always the same - professional expansion teams in any sport, always get some measure of "blind devotion" for at least a year or two, because the fans are just happy to have a team. But eventually that party ends, and you have to be selling something of substance.

TFC spent that "honeymoon period" in the first couple of years, sitting back and enjoying the positive buzz and the massive profitability, instead of wisely laying groundwork for a successful team. And then when the honeymoon quickly ended, they scrambled to try and prove they were "serious" - in some good ways (I think their commitment to proper training and academy facilities has been genuinely laudable) - but mostly in bad and ineffective ways.

And when you couple that with the toxic reputation they've earned through player mistreatment, rifling through coaches, and taking advantage of the fans - it looks really dire.

- Scott

Yohan
11-27-2012, 11:25 AM
Montreal in talks with former Impact and Canadian international defender Enzo Concina. Currently assistant in Napoli

http://www.mountroyalsoccer.com/2012/11/26/3695322/montreal-impact-in-talk-with-enzo-concina-for-head-coach-position

Phil
11-27-2012, 12:15 PM
That would be pretty major. Very nice guy and would be a good fit in Montreal.

Yohan
11-30-2012, 08:43 PM
http://www.mountroyalsoccer.com/2012/11/13/3643374/luca-toni-watch-will-the-viola-player-switch-to-montreal-azzuri/in/3407455

Latest geriatric rumoured towards Mtl? Luca Toni

[NBF]
12-05-2012, 08:26 PM
Ok, I read through all the posts on this thread and found no mention of what Im about to post.

1. Dejan Stankovic(MF-Inter Milan), is interested in coming to MLS and supposedly the league is offering him to Montreal Impact.

2. Head Coaching Candidates (Rumoured):

- Pierluigi Casaraghi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierluigi_Casiraghi)- U-21 Italian Manager, supposedly interested in coaching in Montreal.
- Gordon Hill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Hill_(footballer))- Has supposedly affirmed an interest in coaching the Impact. He played in North America for a while(Including indoor).

- Mauro Biello- He's interested in making the jump to head coach.
- Valerio Gazzola- Has said he is interested in coaching the Impact again.

3. Proof that we're the laughing stock of MLS:
- everyone is making fun of TFC for trading for Justin Braun. Montreal, Vancouver, Chivas, RSL. They think this kid aint good enough.

PopePouri
12-05-2012, 09:34 PM
- everyone is making fun of TFC for trading for Justin Braun. Montreal, Vancouver, Chivas, RSL. They think this kid aint good enough.

I'm laughing cause they got Maund.