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T-boy
10-29-2012, 04:17 PM
I think its time that we (the Red Patch Boys, Registered Members of this forum, and TFC fans in general) made a statement that we all agree that Paul Mariner needs to be relieved of his responsibilities as head coach of TFC. I think we all agree that Mariner hasn't shown any form to justify continuing through to next season as manager. I was a "fan" of Mariner to start with, and I won't hide from that. However, even the hardest Mariner "fan' has to admit that he hasn't done anywhere near enough to justify being head coach into 2013. There doesn't need to be much conversation about this, just a total agreement from the RPB's that Mariner has to go. This needs to be a complete vote of "no confidence" from the RPB's and TFC fans.

Please agree with a "Mariner Out" below so we can get numbers behind us to relieve him of the head coach job. I will start off below.

T-boy
10-29-2012, 04:18 PM
Mariner OUT.

GuelphStorm2007
10-29-2012, 04:20 PM
Please lets get rid of Mariner I am In

TFC07
10-29-2012, 04:24 PM
Get rid of Mariner far away from TFC ASAP! He's a cancer along with Earl Cochrane. They both need to go!

denime
10-29-2012, 04:29 PM
I think its time that we (the RPB's) made a statement that we all agree that Paul Mariner needs to be relieved of his responsibilities as head coach of TFC. I think we all agree that Mariner hasn't shown any form to justify continuing through to next season as manager. I was a "fan" of Mariner to start with, and I won't hide from that. However, even the hardest Mariner "fan' has to admit that he hasn't done anywhere near enough to justify being head coach into 2013. There doesn't need to be much conversation about this, just a total agreement from the RPB's that Mariner has to go. This needs to be a complete vote of "no confidence" from the RPB's.

Please agree with a "Mariner Out" below so we can get numbers behind us to relieve him of the head coach job. I will start off below.


WHILE I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU THAT MARINER MUST BE FIRED ASAP!!

Mariner thinks differently

John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro) Latest sportsnet.ca audio: Mariner tells @FAN590 (https://twitter.com/FAN590) that #TFC (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC&src=hash) made progress under him -http://www.virtualsportsnetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/suicide.gif (https://twitter.com/Sportsnet)- http://bit.ly/S8JFDp (http://t.co/yl91zxql) - #tfc (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23tfc&src=hash) @Sportsnet (https://twitter.com/Sportsnet)


MARINER OUT!!

reggie
10-29-2012, 04:37 PM
like i said in the todays news tread.....do the right thing PM and fall on yr sword..
THE COCH AND CLOWN OUT NOW...

ryan
10-29-2012, 04:38 PM
i was excited this meant he was out. fuuuuuuuu

Brooker
10-29-2012, 04:50 PM
Give him an extension! Mariner in!

[NBF]
10-29-2012, 04:52 PM
Yeah its clear that the guy is not cut out for being a manager and the rumour that Aron Winter was here on a vacation while trying to keep Mariner down in his place is a last ditch attempt at trying to curb the fan hate for Mariner. If Winter was sent packing I dont think that Mariner has much time left, it all depends on the seat renewals.

Greatest Ripoff
10-29-2012, 04:54 PM
If they are going to do it, now is the time. Not next June.

jloome
10-29-2012, 04:56 PM
I think its time that we (the RPB's) made a statement that we all agree that Paul Mariner needs to be relieved of his responsibilities as head coach of TFC. I think we all agree that Mariner hasn't shown any form to justify continuing through to next season as manager. I was a "fan" of Mariner to start with, and I won't hide from that. However, even the hardest Mariner "fan' has to admit that he hasn't done anywhere near enough to justify being head coach into 2013. There doesn't need to be much conversation about this, just a total agreement from the RPB's that Mariner has to go. This needs to be a complete vote of "no confidence" from the RPB's.

Please agree with a "Mariner Out" below so we can get numbers behind us to relieve him of the head coach job. I will start off below.

Mariner Out. His management was a messy disaster, his player selection idiotic, his tactics near non-existent. Add that to the generally unprofessional conduct, and he doesn't have the head for it.

London
10-30-2012, 04:50 PM
we stood in the pouring rain for 2 hours to watch the game sunday,

at the end of the game we went over behind the bench and the coaching staff seen us and headed for the lockeroom, only malcom had the sense to come over to thank us for coming and he said sorry for the bad season.

jimmy and paul engaged more with the crew fans chirping him then his own in red who traveled all that way for a shitty meaninglees game

ag futbol
10-30-2012, 04:51 PM
Ryan Johnson for president

MartinUtd
10-30-2012, 04:55 PM
Quincy Amerikwa should be enough of a reason by itself. Can't wait to see who PM lines up from League 2 next January.

Shakes McQueen
10-30-2012, 05:12 PM
I think this is a fine initiative to undertake here, but I'd clarify one thing first - are you a Red Patch Boy (since you refer to us as "we")? As far as I can see, you aren't a member. Possible your status hasn't been updated?

Either way, I agree with you. But if you want to organize something in the name of the group, you should at least become part of the group.

- Scott

West220Side
10-30-2012, 05:23 PM
*sigh* I actually almost was brainwashed.
to be fair i had been watching this presser for almost two + hours and didnt sleep much with the winds of sandy, but by the end i was almost like 'd'aw give the guy a full year' then i was looking at pm and ec side by side and was curious... how would new yorks duo of hans backe and erik soler look up there in their place?
i mean now is the time to make a move *if* our coaching staff is deemed unfit.

the 'majority' of our player contracts are in option years - new coach can decide who he wants/who goes
hassli (a dp) including in those players on an option year
first pick in next years draft
additional allocation money
first pick in the reallocation draft from players come back to the mls from abroad

really now is the season to make the change when we have all of these pieces that we can fiddle with in the jig-saw that is TFC.
is mariner unfit? in my opinion yes, is cochrane unfit? also a yes. is that my job to decide? thankfully no. (i wouldn't want you guys breathing down my neckg:D)
we'll probably see mariner back, and yes we could give him a *full* season to see what he can properly do, but ... its a big risk.


edit; just got pissed off remembering that reggie lambe gave away 'we have a bermudan on trial' HES BRINGING IN ANOTHER SHITTY PLAYER because of his nationality.

DoubleUp
10-30-2012, 06:11 PM
I also agree now is the time to pull the trigger, and give the new guy a fairly clean slate to work with.


And this time dont undermine/cut him off at the knees.

starter
10-30-2012, 06:13 PM
PM is clearly not equipped to be a head coach. By his age he would have had a track record, if he was any good. He has nothing to teach younger players to. He can not establish a strategy or direction for the club. He is out of place.
I do not know how Anselmi could justify keeping him longer.

GBV
10-30-2012, 06:22 PM
+ 1 and then some.

Auzzy
10-30-2012, 06:54 PM
we stood in the pouring rain for 2 hours to watch the game sunday,

at the end of the game we went over behind the bench and the coaching staff seen us and headed for the lockeroom, only malcom had the sense to come over to thank us for coming and he said sorry for the bad season.

jimmy and paul engaged more with the crew fans chirping him then his own in red who traveled all that way for a shitty meaninglees game

Wow, that sucks, I can't believe it.

Did you guys at least get any positive feedback from the players?

Ajax TFC
10-30-2012, 07:14 PM
I do not know how Anselmi could justify keeping him longer.
I'm sure Anselmi views his on the job experience at TFC as being more valuable than anyone's experience elsewhere. It's a general MLSE philosophy to promote people from within the organization and keep them on for as long as possible. See Tom Anselmi being promoted to president of MLSE

TOBOR !
10-30-2012, 07:45 PM
I suppose those who've just seen the light preach the loudest, but come on, this message has been around for donkey's years.

Benficachop20
10-30-2012, 07:56 PM
http://s7.postimage.org/ae2hj3jxl/Mariner_3.jpg

Seriously gtfo Mariner and take Cochrane with you

Belfast_Boy
10-30-2012, 07:57 PM
I think its time that we (the RPB's) made a statement that we all agree that Paul Mariner needs to be relieved of his responsibilities as head coach of TFC. I think we all agree that Mariner hasn't shown any form to justify continuing through to next season as manager. I was a "fan" of Mariner to start with, and I won't hide from that. However, even the hardest Mariner "fan' has to admit that he hasn't done anywhere near enough to justify being head coach into 2013. There doesn't need to be much conversation about this, just a total agreement from the RPB's that Mariner has to go. This needs to be a complete vote of "no confidence" from the RPB's.

Please agree with a "Mariner Out" below so we can get numbers behind us to relieve him of the head coach job. I will start off below.

if you are going to undertake this in a serious manner it's exhausting, good luck. I agree the guy has to go but the structure doesn't exist to hire the next proper manager. the rebuild of this team has to start at the top.

starter
10-30-2012, 08:09 PM
I'm sure Anselmi views his on the job experience at TFC as being more valuable than anyone's experience elsewhere. It's a general MLSE philosophy to promote people from within the organization and keep them on for as long as possible. See Tom Anselmi being promoted to president of MLSE
Tom had a history of letting people go, they are all outsiders to MLSE anyway. I think Tom has problems finding 'right' people this time. May be with Mariner out to Europe Tom would have an opportunity to talk to some, or this is just my wishful thinking.

nascarguy
10-30-2012, 08:24 PM
clean house 100% everyone must go the only that can stay is malcom

nonc
10-30-2012, 08:27 PM
Winter was not dumb, but near the end he had become very disillusioned. Mariner has matched him on that account and raised us a dog's dinner on the field.

Out +1

Thomas
10-30-2012, 08:36 PM
The clown has to go

jabbronies
10-30-2012, 08:49 PM
PM is clearly not equipped to be a head coach. By his age he would have had a track record, if he was any good. He has nothing to teach younger players to. He can not establish a strategy or direction for the club. He is out of place.
I do not know how Anselmi could justify keeping him longer.

Bingo. Here it is right here. The guy is 60 years old and doesn't have a positive record being a first team manager. Actually, he doesn't have much of any record being a first team manager. How is he qualified again?

Alonso
10-30-2012, 09:53 PM
if you are going to undertake this in a serious manner it's exhausting, good luck. I agree the guy has to go but the structure doesn't exist to hire the next proper manager. the rebuild of this team has to start at the top.


Agreed Mariner is irrelevant, the change has to be done Higher up.

If that doesn't happen, might as well keep Mariner on because the next boso will be picked by the same bosos.

Oldtimer
10-30-2012, 10:06 PM
I think its time that we (the RPB's) made a statement that we all agree

Are you planning to join the group now (since you seem to be identifying with the Red Patch Boys)? We welcome new members.

Oldtimer
10-30-2012, 10:09 PM
My opinion on Mariner has been known since his first game as coach. What I saw during that game made me realize that he didn't know in the slightest what he was doing. It wasn't just a learning curve (I am generally willing to give people time), he really was clueless. Most rep coaches would not make the mistakes that he made.

Subsequent events only confirmed my original assessment.

jazzy
10-30-2012, 10:48 PM
we're fooked...........I seriously believe he will be gone......it is just toooocrazy and destructive for him to stay........If he stays there is something crazy wrong in the teams power structure.......it will be absolute proof.......and today he's going to Europe for recruits???? loads of old cheap cast-offs there........................why not just call it a employer paid holiday back home Paul......or is that Moe?

London
10-31-2012, 06:57 AM
Wow, that sucks, I can't believe it.

Did you guys at least get any positive feedback from the players?

the players also did not come over, only malcom came over.

i was quite dissapointed that they didn't even wave or give a nod, only freddy hall and logan emory made gestures to us during the game

Auzzy
10-31-2012, 07:20 AM
the players also did not come over, only malcom came over.

i was quite dissapointed that they didn't even wave or give a nod, only freddy hall and logan emory made gestures to us during the game

Crap. I guess the evil reign of Aron Winter really is over. Expecting professionalism from players and coaches in acknowledging supporters, especially away support in crap conditions (in terms of both the weather and the team), is just asking WAY too much... :facepalm:

Fort York Redcoat
10-31-2012, 08:26 AM
Mariner out before the draft.

I can't see why anyone would want to give him a year. Our previous coach, while unsuccessful, had a vision and plan that didn't pan out so we give time to someone who didn't improve our outlook, looked poor in game decisions and has said he will do anything to be coach? Why give time to someone with no vision? We abandoned vision for results and are at a point to clean the slate when it at least comes to direction on field. We must take it.

Mariner does not deserve time.

narduch
10-31-2012, 08:38 AM
PM is clearly not equipped to be a head coach. By his age he would have had a track record, if he was any good. He has nothing to teach younger players to. He can not establish a strategy or direction for the club. He is out of place.
I do not know how Anselmi could justify keeping him longer.

Wow, I never thought about it like this. How does a 59 year old coach only have that little head coaching experience? There's usually a reason for that.

I was skeptical about Winter when he was first hired because he was unemployed for 1.5 years and only coached youth. But Mariner's resume isn't that great either. We are doomed.

I think Mariner is fighing hard for his job because it might be his last.

Initial B
10-31-2012, 08:44 AM
Sorry Guys,

As much as I don't think Mariner is the right manager, he and Cochrane are going to get the chance to remake the team in their own image and live or die (probably the latter) based on it. At which point we get to start all over again. We just have to endure about 2 more years of crap.

We will not get a new president until it becomes apparent next season that Mariner and Cochrane haven't turned the franchise around.

Just playing Devil's advocate, but what if Mariner does the improbable and gets TFC to the playoffs next year with a soul-sucking defensive style of play? Does that give him a free pass?

Personally, it's not the results that make me want to get rid of those two, it's what I perceive to be a lack of character. You don't say "we just need to make a couple of tweaks", then go around making wholesale changes to the way the game is played on the field. You don't try to undermine your rivals to meet your own ambitions over the good of the club. You don't point fingers and make excuses but take responsibility for results that happened under your watch.

narduch
10-31-2012, 08:50 AM
Just playing Devil's advocate, but what if Mariner does the improbable and gets TFC to the playoffs next year with a soul-sucking defensive style of play? Does that give him a free pass?

I would love for that to be the case. I just don't see it happening. I don't think under this management team we can finish ahead of the current top 7 teams in the conference. If we are lucky we could get 8th. And that's only if Philadelphia and New England don't get their shit together.

We will be fighting Chivas for worst team in the league next year.

DangerRed
10-31-2012, 08:54 AM
So yes, Mariner definitely out, but you do realize he's not going anywhere until he's blown up the first half of next season, right?

That's why, when I look at the renewal poll after the price cut, I sort of scratch my head. Why would you want to do this to yourselves again next year?

Maybe I'll see you in 2014.

Auzzy
10-31-2012, 08:54 AM
Sorry Guys,

As much as I don't think Mariner is the right manager, he and Cochrane are going to get the chance to remake the team in their own image and live or die (probably the latter) based on it. At which point we get to start all over again. We just have to endure about 2 more years of crap.

We will not get a new president until it becomes apparent next season that Mariner and Cochrane haven't turned the franchise around.

Just playing Devil's advocate, but what if Mariner does the improbable and gets TFC to the playoffs next year with a soul-sucking defensive style of play? Does that give him a free pass?

Personally, it's not the results that make me want to get rid of those two, it's what I perceive to be a lack of character. You don't say "we just need to make a couple of tweaks", then go around making wholesale changes to the way the game is played on the field. You don't try to undermine your rivals to meet your own ambitions over the good of the club. You don't point fingers but take responsibility for results that happened under your watch.

^ This is what worries me as well. Even if you're mediocre, you can get lucky in this league. If you're willing to screw the long term for the short term, you can do better for a season. So Mariner is going to Europe to scout. There have been very few "good deals" for European players, in comparison with other MLS salaries. Not the right place to look considering our cap situation. So maybe Mariner offers a "handshake" deal: play this season for x dollars, then next year I'll give you x times 2.5 once the Frings and Koevermans deals are over and I've squeaked into the playoffs once. Or you offer a ladder deal in writing like Barrett had. Of course, if that player doesn't turn out so well, you've screwed the future to save your job.

We've already seen something similar, with the 2014 draft pick traded for a DP, FFS!

But then we're supposed to praise the all-knowing Mariner & Cochrane if they make it to the playoffs once. Not that I'm actually expecting that -- just that making the playoffs may be just as bad as not making them, if you consider the long-term future of the club.

JamboAl
10-31-2012, 08:55 AM
I want Mariner out yesterday. But the harsh reality is that he will be here come start of the new season and will only be let go if the team starts poorly and the stands are even emptier than now. Then the reset button will be pushed yet again, promises will be made to the supporters and it'll be 7 + years of our soccer lives that we'll never get back. I've never been so cynical about TFC and I don't want to be.

T-boy
10-31-2012, 09:01 AM
I think this is a fine initiative to undertake here, but I'd clarify one thing first - are you a Red Patch Boy (since you refer to us as "we")? As far as I can see, you aren't a member. Possible your status hasn't been updated?

Either way, I agree with you. But if you want to organize something in the name of the group, you should at least become part of the group.

- Scott

I'm going to PM you on this.

I don't think it would quite have the same ring to it if I had written "as a user of this board". The majority of users of this board would recognise themselves as "members" of it, and the majority of people are users and not members. As this is in the general section, and not in the private members area, I would assume then, that its recognised as a public "membership" of the forum rather than member of the group statement. I hope that's ok?

narduch
10-31-2012, 09:05 AM
TFC isn't making the playoffs under Mariner + Cochrane. This isn't 2007 when 8 of 13 teams made the MLS playoffs. TFC needs to be one of the 5 best out of 10 in the East. There is no way they will be better than the current top 7.

jloome
10-31-2012, 09:06 AM
^ This is what worries me as well. Even if you're mediocre, you can get lucky in this league. If you're willing to screw the long term for the short term, you can do better for a season. So Mariner is going to Europe to scout. There have been very few "good deals" for European players, in comparison with other MLS salaries. Not the right place to look considering our cap situation. So maybe Mariner offers a "handshake" deal: play this season for x dollars, then next year I'll give you x times 2.5 once the Frings and Koevermans deals are over and I've squeaked into the playoffs once. Or you offer a ladder deal in writing like Barrett had. Of course, if that player doesn't turn out so well, you've screwed the future to save your job.

We've already seen something similar, with the 2014 draft pick traded for a DP, FFS!

But then we're supposed to praise the all-knowing Mariner & Cochrane if they make it to the playoffs once. Not that I'm actually expecting that -- just that making the playoffs may be just as bad as not making them, if you consider the long-term future of the club.

Uh, guys: a little objectivity. I think the guy's friggin' awful on almost every level. But if he gets us into the playoffs, he stays because he got us into the playoffs, something six other coaches haven't managed (although Chris Cummins was let go with a winning record.)

I don't think there's an icicle's chance in hell it will happen; anyone who's watched the team under him and its statistical irrelevance against every opposition shoudl see that.

Even if, as Cochrane alluded to, we get three or four key pieces in, that will give us one solid lineup, little depth and three fragile DPs. One of those key new players better be able to bag a whole bunch of goals ANd be an ironman, because as much as I love Danny K, I don't see him ever lasting a full MLS season at his age and the way this league bangs target men around.

supersaint
10-31-2012, 09:06 AM
I am exhausted by the rhetoric being spouted by Mariner and Cochrane on the end of season video. What complete and utter shite. So all I have left to say is this. MARINER OUT. COCHRANE OUT. Before there is no one left to give a damn!!!!

Phil
10-31-2012, 09:07 AM
Yesterday sealed it for me in so many ways.

Its the second coming of Mojo. The guy needs to be shown the door.

Ajax TFC
10-31-2012, 09:37 AM
Yesterday sealed it for me in so many ways.

Its the second coming of Mojo. The guy needs to be shown the door.
I'd rather say it's the first coming of Mariner (since his record is worse than Mo Jo's,) but in regards to the fuckedupness of it, it's definitely near par. Also the plans to hire an assistant with a clause to become head coach suggests that Mariner will follow in MoJo's footsteps and promote himself upstairs midway through next season if things don't go the way he wants

tfcleeds
10-31-2012, 09:47 AM
^If that is indeed what transpires, I'm not sure I could handle it. Another 3-4 seasons of mediocrity on top of the last 6 might well be the death knell of this club.

ryan
10-31-2012, 10:00 AM
I'd rather say it's the first coming of Mariner (since his record is worse than Mo Jo's,) but in regards to the fuckedupness of it, it's definitely near par. Also the plans to hire an assistant with a clause to become head coach suggests that Mariner will follow in MoJo's footsteps and promote himself upstairs midway through next season if things don't go the way he wants

This is impossible, Mariner is very good at what he does.


(the key here actually, is what he does, is be a total fucking useless cunt...and yes, he's fantastic at it. MLSE can't have enough of these types either.)

Belfast_Boy
10-31-2012, 10:01 AM
are we all just verbally wanking off on a message board? if not here's where you can contact the powers that be.

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?32976-Letters-and-emails-to-TFC

reggie
10-31-2012, 10:02 AM
that presser sealed it for me,im out and not renewing,OUT WITH THE COCH AND THE CLOWN!!

ryan
10-31-2012, 10:15 AM
are we all just verbally wanking off on a message board? if not here's where you can contact the powers that be.

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?32976-Letters-and-emails-to-TFC

That's what I'm doing.

I'm not personally in agreeance that sending them letters are going to make a difference, or change their course of action. If Mariner and Cochrane are out by Xmas, maybe I'll change my opinion on it, but I'm doubting this happens in any reasonable amount of time.

Mark my words, we'll be discussing "Mariner and Cochrane OUT" this time next year.


Best of luck in your efforts though, I wish they would make a difference. I wish something would.

cmonyoureds
10-31-2012, 10:16 AM
I would love for that to be the case. I just don't see it happening. I don't think under this management team we can finish ahead of the current top 7 teams in the conference. If we are lucky we could get 8th. And that's only if Philadelphia and New England don't get their shit together.

We will be fighting Chivas for worst team in the league next year.

Not too sure on that. It seems like they've hired some pretty competent people to sort out their mess. We've just (allegedly) given another season to the people that created ours.

Sadly, I think this is going to be more a case of everyone else moves ahead and we are left further behind.

narduch
10-31-2012, 10:19 AM
That's what I'm doing.

I'm not personally in agreeance that sending them letters are going to make a difference, or change their course of action. If Mariner and Cochrane are out by Xmas, maybe I'll change my opinion on it, but I'm doubting this happens in any reasonable amount of time.

Mark my words, we'll be discussing "Mariner and Cochrane OUT" this time next year.


Best of luck in your efforts though, I wish they would make a difference. I wish something would.

Only poor renewal numbers will get Mariner + Cochrane removed at this point, in my opinion.

If renewals are good, Anselmi just bought himself 6 more months until he has to make a tough decision.

DangerRed
10-31-2012, 10:23 AM
^ This is what worries me as well. Even if you're mediocre, you can get lucky in this league. If you're willing to screw the long term for the short term, you can do better for a season. So Mariner is going to Europe to scout. There have been very few "good deals" for European players, in comparison with other MLS salaries. Not the right place to look considering our cap situation. So maybe Mariner offers a "handshake" deal: play this season for x dollars, then next year I'll give you x times 2.5 once the Frings and Koevermans deals are over and I've squeaked into the playoffs once. Or you offer a ladder deal in writing like Barrett had. Of course, if that player doesn't turn out so well, you've screwed the future to save your job.

We've already seen something similar, with the 2014 draft pick traded for a DP, FFS!

But then we're supposed to praise the all-knowing Mariner & Cochrane if they make it to the playoffs once. Not that I'm actually expecting that -- just that making the playoffs may be just as bad as not making them, if you consider the long-term future of the club.


You shouldn't worry about this. There's no chance it'll happen. Worry about another year at the bottom of the table, instead.

ryan
10-31-2012, 10:23 AM
Not too sure on that. It seems like they've hired some pretty competent people to sort out their mess. We've just (allegedly) given another season to the people that created ours.

Sadly, I think this is going to be more a case of everyone else moves ahead and we are left further behind.

I feel a poll coming on..."Which club will we battle with for the 2013 Wooden Spoon?" Im going with New England. They seem to be run as terribly as we are and one of the only few MLS clubs showing no signs of progression.

cmonyoureds
10-31-2012, 10:24 AM
we stood in the pouring rain for 2 hours to watch the game sunday,

at the end of the game we went over behind the bench and the coaching staff seen us and headed for the lockeroom, only malcom had the sense to come over to thank us for coming and he said sorry for the bad season.

jimmy and paul engaged more with the crew fans chirping him then his own in red who traveled all that way for a shitty meaninglees game

They probably thought anyone willing to travel to support this mess must be seriously, certifiably insane and therefore not quite sure how to proceed.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in marketing circles this is known as expanding the brand?

But seriously, good on you guys for heading down there. Reminds me of Montreal, and in fact most of the season at BMO. In my books it's unforgivable to not acknowledge your supporters with more than a half hearted clap from mid-field.

ryan
10-31-2012, 10:29 AM
Only poor renewal numbers will get Mariner + Cochrane removed at this point, in my opinion.

If renewals are good, Anselmi just bought himself 6 more months until he has to make a tough decision.

If he always makes the same decision, it really can't be that tough?

Belfast_Boy
10-31-2012, 10:31 AM
That's what I'm doing.

I'm not personally in agreeance that sending them letters are going to make a difference, or change their course of action. If Mariner and Cochrane are out by Xmas, maybe I'll change my opinion on it, but I'm doubting this happens in any reasonable amount of time.

Mark my words, we'll be discussing "Mariner and Cochrane OUT" this time next year.


Best of luck in your efforts though, I wish they would make a difference. I wish something would.

thanks, gotta try something. and if it doesn't work we should keep on them until they are embarrassed into action.

I think Mariner will be out before then. but without a proper president we're going on the same ride again. one season at a time with no future.

brad
10-31-2012, 10:31 AM
Just playing Devil's advocate, but what if Mariner does the improbable and gets TFC to the playoffs next year with a soul-sucking defensive style of play? Does that give him a free pass?

Question is too loaded IMHO. Are we still bad, but sneak in? Are we really good and make in comfortably? Was it done by mortgaging the future in order to make the playoffs? Does he build team that could grow into something more over the next few years?

So it's not just about what we do, it's about how we do it and how we are setup afterwards.

That said - assuming we are building towards being a good team over the next few years, and it's done with a "boring defensive" brand of football, I'd accept that. I'd prefer attacking flair and excitement, but would take the former.

Belfast_Boy
10-31-2012, 10:37 AM
Only poor renewal numbers will get Mariner + Cochrane removed at this point, in my opinion.

If renewals are good, Anselmi just bought himself 6 more months until he has to make a tough decision.

that's already happened. they have great numbers this year.

narduch
10-31-2012, 10:40 AM
that's already happened. they have great numbers this year.

Unless you have an inside source, we don't know that for sure.

I'm guess the initial blip was by people who loved the price drop and by some that had been waiting for weeks to renew anyways.

The deadline is November 23. I could see them taking further action if say they are only at 75% renewals by that date.

Besides, anything this club says should be taken with a grain of salt, including their renewal numbers. For all we know they are claiming they are high to stop people from relocating to cheaper seats.

brad
10-31-2012, 10:42 AM
The problem I see is that Mariner/Earl have been given a playoffs next year or you are out ultimatum. That sets up the unfortunate short sighted scenario where they are going to be chasing instant gratification over long term success. I expect to see future draft picks along with promising young players being moved out for hardened MLS vets. There have been rumors of Morgan being shopped, I could see Silva getting moved as he was thrown under the bus yesterday and will have high trade value in the league.

My number one worry is not what the team accomplishes next year, but what these guys do to accomplish it. We could be screwed for a while to come.

And I don't entirely fault Paul and Earl here - this is what their corporate success parameters are. As long as ownership chases the short term profit, no long term vision will ever stick. I don't think a president will change that either...

ryan
10-31-2012, 10:43 AM
thanks, gotta try something. and if it doesn't work we should keep on them until they are embarrassed into action.

I think Mariner will be out before then. but without a proper president we're going on the same ride again. one season at a time with no future.

I would put Mariner being gone at 5-10% at best.

Cochrane, 0%.

He's the man now and seems that those on the other side of the fence, media/suits/etc, look at him as being a "smart soccer guy" or whatever the fuck. He played CIS level soccer or whatever? Which would be like the depths of a pub league in any other developed footie nation on the planet? Then if you ask any long follower of Canadian footie, they'll be sure to note how Canadian footballers have little to no football smarts and is the core problem of the CMNT program.

Sigh.


Regardless, he's getting a shot and I'm doubtful it'll be just one year for him. He'll be here for 2+ because he's been pushed free of any blame prior, no doubt he's here for some time. He's considered totally fresh and free to fuck up a few times before they do anything about it. On top of that, removing him will do nothing to generate interest, nobody really knows of him or would care if he's gone. Firing Mariner would catch some attention tho, hence why I see a small chance of that happening.

ryan
10-31-2012, 10:44 AM
that's already happened. they have great numbers this year.

Says who TFC? Them saying we have "great numbers" is likely a ploy to convince people that

a) Tickets might be harder to get than they realize
b) They don't want to be left out
c) Maybe their thinking the team is gonna suck might be wrong if everyone's buying in.



I'm skeptical at best things are going well.

narduch
10-31-2012, 10:47 AM
I would put Mariner being gone at 5-10% at best.

Cochrane, 0%.

He's the man now and seems that those on the other side of the fence, media/suits/etc, look at him as being a "smart soccer guy" or whatever the fuck. He played CIS level soccer or whatever? Which would be like the depths of a pub league in any other developed footie nation on the planet? Then if you ask any long follower of Canadian footie, they'll be sure to note how Canadian footballers have little to no football smarts and is the core problem of the CMNT program.

Sigh.


Regardless, he's getting a shot and I'm doubtful it'll be just one year for him. He'll be here for 2+ because he's been pushed free of any blame prior, no doubt he's here for some time. He's considered totally fresh and free to fuck up a few times before they do anything about it. On top of that, removing him will do nothing to generate interest, nobody really knows of him or would care if he's gone. Firing Mariner would catch some attention tho, hence why I see a small chance of that happening.

I agree with you on Cochrane. He survives because outside of fan forums, the general fanbase doesn't even know who he is.

Belfast_Boy
10-31-2012, 10:52 AM
Says who TFC? Them saying we have "great numbers" is likely a ploy to convince people that

a) Tickets might be harder to get than they realize
b) They don't want to be left out
c) Maybe their thinking the team is gonna suck might be wrong if everyone's buying in.



I'm skeptical at best things are going well.

Anselmi said it. I have a good bullshit detector and i think he was being honest. I work for a very large law firm so my skills in the lying arts are highly tuned.

ryan
10-31-2012, 10:58 AM
Anselmi said it. I have a good bullshit detector and i think he was being honest. I work for a very large law firm so my skills in the lying arts are highly tuned.

I don't doubt your skills, but Anselmi didn't get to where he is and stay there, without being masterclass with bullshit too ya know. Could be either way I suppose. Also, if it was going poorly, do you think they'd admit to that to anyone?

Belfast_Boy
10-31-2012, 11:08 AM
I don't doubt your skills, but Anselmi didn't get to where he is and stay there, without being masterclass with bullshit too ya know. Could be either way I suppose. Also, if it was going poorly, do you think they'd admit to that to anyone?


I agree. he's not an idiot.

I think they will have great renewals but the attendance will remain the same or worse. nobody will be too bothered about missing a game if the weather is crap and the team still sucks at these prices.

Shakes McQueen
10-31-2012, 11:08 AM
I'm going to PM you on this.

I don't think it would quite have the same ring to it if I had written "as a user of this board". The majority of users of this board would recognise themselves as "members" of it, and the majority of people are users and not members. As this is in the general section, and not in the private members area, I would assume then, that its recognised as a public "membership" of the forum rather than member of the group statement. I hope that's ok?

It was only a minor quibble - no big deal. I'm glad you identify yourself with the community here; there was just some confusion about your choice of words. And thank you for the PM.

- Scott

narduch
10-31-2012, 11:09 AM
I don't doubt your skills, but Anselmi didn't get to where he is and stay there, without being masterclass with bullshit too ya know. Could be either way I suppose. Also, if it was going poorly, do you think they'd admit to that to anyone?

I believe all Anselmi said was that renewals were going quicker than usual. That doesn't mean the final number is what they want to reach. Could just be a blip due to the marking of the price drop.

There are probably still a lot of SSH waiting for news on the team's management.

T-boy
10-31-2012, 11:22 AM
It was only a minor quibble - no big deal. I'm glad you identify yourself with the community here; there was just some confusion about your choice of words. And thank you for the PM.

- Scott

No problem. Sorry about the word choice - maybe I should have said "TFC fans" rather than RPB's. But either way, I hope this thread gets read somehow by MLSE and they understand where the fans stand on Mariner as head coach.

I really wanted to post this thread - especially as I was a "fan" and backing Mariner to start with. I think its more poignant that a original defender of Mariner is now asking for him to be removed. The people on this forum all remember how I defended him as hard as I could through June and July. I hold my hands up and declare that I was wrong. He isn't the guy to take us forward. I've been accused of "moving the goalposts" on here in the past - but I want to say that I wanted Aron Winter removed after he took us 0-9 - I'm stucking with my opinion and Mariner should ALSO be removed for going 14 games without a win. I definitely don't want to be accused of moving any posts or being inconsistent on this. 14 games without a win is simply not good enough. For sure, I will take the excuses of having 2/3 of the salary injured. But in the end of the day, you still have to get results. 9 games was too long for Winter, and equally 9 plus games is too long for Mariner.

Belfast_Boy
10-31-2012, 11:43 AM
who knows how to build an effigy?

ryan
10-31-2012, 11:54 AM
who knows how to build an effigy?

Show up outside MLSE HQ.

Invite all Toronto sports fans.

Pile jerseys in the middle of the street.

Set them on fire.

starter
10-31-2012, 11:57 AM
No problem. Sorry about the word choice - maybe I should have said "TFC fans" rather than RPB's. But either way, I hope this thread gets read somehow by MLSE and they understand where the fans stand on Mariner as head coach.

I really wanted to post this thread - especially as I was a "fan" and backing Mariner to start with. I think its more poignant that a original defender of Mariner is now asking for him to be removed. The people on this forum all remember how I defended him as hard as I could through June and July. I hold my hands up and declare that I was wrong. He isn't the guy to take us forward. I've been accused of "moving the goalposts" on here in the past - but I want to say that I wanted Aron Winter removed after he took us 0-9 - I'm stucking with my opinion and Mariner should ALSO be removed for going 14 games without a win. I definitely don't want to be accused of moving any posts or being inconsistent on this. 14 games without a win is simply not good enough. For sure, I will take the excuses of having 2/3 of the salary injured. But in the end of the day, you still have to get results. 9 games was too long for Winter, and equally 9 plus games is too long for Mariner.
It is nice of you to stick with your position to re-evaluate the manager at the season end. Cheers!

Chevy
10-31-2012, 11:57 AM
The problem I see is that Mariner/Earl have been given a playoffs next year or you are out ultimatum. That sets up the unfortunate short sighted scenario where they are going to be chasing instant gratification over long term success. I expect to see future draft picks along with promising young players being moved out for hardened MLS vets. There have been rumors of Morgan being shopped, I could see Silva getting moved as he was thrown under the bus yesterday and will have high trade value in the league.

My number one worry is not what the team accomplishes next year, but what these guys do to accomplish it. We could be screwed for a while to come.

And I don't entirely fault Paul and Earl here - this is what their corporate success parameters are. As long as ownership chases the short term profit, no long term vision will ever stick. I don't think a president will change that either...

True. I wish the ultimatium would have had the addendum "...and provide a foundation for future success." As it stands now, I would expect a minor improvement next year, followed by a 2014 version of TFC even worse that this year's club. There is absolutely no incentive to look beyond the next 8 months or so.

This leaves me, as a supporter, in an unusual situation. Looking at the big picture here, I need to see my club perform poorly next season. Fun times at BMO.

Belfast_Boy
10-31-2012, 12:10 PM
Show up outside MLSE HQ.

Invite all Toronto sports fans.

Pile jerseys in the middle of the street.

Set them on fire.

not far from my next plan. wanted to do a protest outside a raptors game.

ryan
10-31-2012, 12:18 PM
not far from my next plan. wanted to do a protest outside a raptors game.

If you had 100 people involved, you'd get global attention IMO. Probably a footnote or backpage story, but media in US/UK/etc would mention it I'm sure. Would make them look awful and would be great for having something done.

Although I'm sure some people would get arrested for it, would have to be put together silently and the act itself done rather quickly so nobody can get nailed.

T-boy
10-31-2012, 12:22 PM
It is nice of you to stick with your position to re-evaluate the manager at the season end. Cheers!

I absolutely did say I would, did, I?! :) And its a bitter pill to swallow when you know you've got it wrong :(

Belfast_Boy
10-31-2012, 12:28 PM
If you had 100 people involved, you'd get global attention IMO. Probably a footnote or backpage story, but media in US/UK/etc would mention it I'm sure. Would make them look awful and would be great for having something done.

Although I'm sure some people would get arrested for it, would have to be put together silently and the act itself done rather quickly so nobody can get nailed.

yeah, we'd have to skip the fire bit. this is Canada. we'd protest then apologize afterwards.

ryan
10-31-2012, 12:32 PM
yeah, we'd have to skip the fire bit. this is Canada. we'd protest then apologize afterwards.

hence why it'd get attention. Those Canadians must be really pissed if they decided to skip their poutine lunch and do something offensive for a change.

instead of mailing Tom letters, lets mail him our kits with attached notes "I don't need this anymore, thanks"

Initial B
10-31-2012, 12:45 PM
Question is too loaded IMHO. Are we still bad, but sneak in? Are we really good and make in comfortably? Was it done by mortgaging the future in order to make the playoffs? Does he build team that could grow into something more over the next few years?
I was thinking if Mariner actually signs the right players and chooses the right draft prospects without Mortgaging the future - basically, gets us on the right track. Do we keep him regardless of the other antics he commits on the sidelines and Press Conferences?

Regardless, of whether or not Mariner can do it, I don't like his character and that's why I want to see him gone. I want to see Cochrane gone because he has been here the longest and is the most culpable for this state of affairs.

jloome
10-31-2012, 01:03 PM
I absolutely did say I would, did, I?! :) And its a bitter pill to swallow when you know you've got it wrong :(

Too bitter for many, so good on you for the humility. More people need to change their minds; given that most people base their perspectives on belief over investigation, one has to assume it would lead to significant flip flopping and less general mistake making.

brad
10-31-2012, 01:04 PM
I was thinking if Mariner actually signs the right players and chooses the right draft prospects without Mortgaging the future - basically, gets us on the right track. Do we keep him regardless of the other antics he commits on the sidelines and Press

Yes. If he turn the team around and builds a foundation for success we keep him. His antics don't matter then - he is getting the results.

moralis
10-31-2012, 01:11 PM
Hi guys,

If you have time today please listen to this interview between TSN Radio host Gareth Wheeler and Jason Devos:

It sums up everything wrong with TFC and Jason offers suggestions on how to fix it:

Copy this link to your media player URL: http://iphone.tsn.ca/tsnpodcasts/jd%20oct%2030.mp3

T-boy
10-31-2012, 01:12 PM
Too bitter for many, so good on you for the humility. More people need to change their minds; given that most people base their perspectives on belief over investigation, one has to assume it would lead to significant flip flopping and less general mistake making.

I always believe that if a new head coach can't get success within 3 or 4 months (longer than the short "new manager boost") then they will never get it right. Football management is a results driven job only, in the end of the day. Football managers can always come up with excuses, but good managers, and those who get results, don't need "excuses". Their results are all the proof they need. I personally kinda like Mariner "as a man", but I need to keep that separate. Results have been poor. Like earlier in the season, when I said "no manager goes 9 games in a row losing and keeps their job" - I also think that "no manager can go 14 games without a win and keep their job". Mariner had the opportunity to get a few players mid-season to improve things, but he failed. Wiedeman and Amarikwa are no more than depth players in the MLS, and Hassli was acquired when he was injured, which is never a great idea. Would a different head coach have done better? Maybe/maybe not. But I just judge what I see. And Mariner didn't improve the team at all apart from a slight "new manager boost" (which honestly, a blind field mouse could have done!).

ryan
10-31-2012, 01:13 PM
Hi guys,

If you have time today please listen to this interview between TSN Radio host Gareth Wheeler and Jason Devos:

It sums up everything wrong with TFC and Jason offers suggestions on how to fix it:

Copy this link to your media player URL: http://iphone.tsn.ca/tsnpodcasts/jd oct 30.mp3



you must be Pedro? :)

Belfast_Boy
10-31-2012, 01:14 PM
hence why it'd get attention. Those Canadians must be really pissed if they decided to skip their poutine lunch and do something offensive for a change.

instead of mailing Tom letters, lets mail him our kits with attached notes "I don't need this anymore, thanks"

I'm not giving up my Dero shirt! That's my little protest every time I wear it.

It's really hard to get any support for a protest. We even argue about calling it a protest. I like the idea but the key is to get numbers behind anything we are trying to say.

Fort York Redcoat
10-31-2012, 02:02 PM
This movement, message will be all the more difficult for the fact that Anselmi is even less motivated to make a change in management after only a matter of months being forced to make the other.

This is a tall order, no doubt.

Connon_1991
10-31-2012, 02:29 PM
Mariner is a clown... he loves passing the blame on other people and "the younger players who are learning the trade" Its the same old Pish and i cant see him changing the team next year and us getting into the playoffs. He also spoke about Luis Silva and how he wouldn't of been one of his picks in the draft.. I think he's technically one of our better players.. he plays the game the right way and going forward he had some spark to him..... Anyway Marnier out he's a clown and will NOT change the team for next year.

Torontotonto
10-31-2012, 03:03 PM
WE NEED A COMPETENT PRESIDENT AT THIS CLUB

That's the only starting point.
If he can's Mariner and Cochrane asses or keeps them, I will live with his decision.
Tommy Boy has got to give up the reins...

Dreadlocks
10-31-2012, 03:37 PM
Mariner is a clown... he loves passing the blame on other people and "the younger players who are learning the trade" Its the same old Pish and i cant see him changing the team next year and us getting into the playoffs. He also spoke about Luis Silva and how he wouldn't of been one of his picks in the draft.. I think he's technically one of our better players.. he plays the game the right way and going forward he had some spark to him..... Anyway Marnier out he's a clown and will NOT change the team for next year.

Wow! This just proves yet again that Mariner does not like skilled players. Plus, how the f*ck can a coach say this about a current roster player and expect him to preform? My fear would be if Silva was moved, what would Earl and Paul take back in return?

Hold on to your hats people. This shit show will not be coming to an end anytime soon.


Mariner and Cochrane out!!!!!!!!

trane
11-01-2012, 10:36 AM
if you are going to undertake this in a serious manner it's exhausting, good luck. I agree the guy has to go but the structure doesn't exist to hire the next proper manager. the rebuild of this team has to start at the top.

Agreed, Mariner is a symptom of a much deeper problem. Not saying he should not go, but him going is not enough. We will cure this one symptom and then another one will appear.

T-boy
11-01-2012, 11:01 AM
I edited the OP. I don't want the rhetoric of the original post to destract from the overall intention of this thread to notify MLSE/TFC that Mariner has been given a vote of no confidence on this forum. So, please keep posting your "Mariner Out" posts if you haven't done so already. The more we have posting on this thread the more impact it should have with the club management.

Lucky Strike
11-01-2012, 11:09 AM
Paul Mariner out. Earl Cochrane out.

TFC Front Office: Don't give the job to Jim Brennan or Danny Dichio either. Don't get me wrong, I loved them both as players but they don't have enough first-team managerial (either as head coach or signing players) experience yet.

Wull
11-01-2012, 11:39 AM
I edited the OP. I don't want the rhetoric of the original post to destract from the overall intention of this thread to notify MLSE/TFC that Mariner has been given a vote of no confidence on this forum. So, please keep posting your "Mariner Out" posts if you haven't done so already. The more we have posting on this thread the more impact it should have with the club management.

No offense but posting in this thread isn't going to put any pressure whatsoever on the club management, if you want to do something that does, send an email or letter to the board

T-boy
11-01-2012, 11:54 AM
No offense but posting in this thread isn't going to put any pressure whatsoever on the club management, if you want to do something that does, send an email or letter to the board

Already have mate! But surely every effort is worthwhile at this moment in time, isn't it? I'd streak naked in front of CP24 live in the morning if I thought it would get the job of removing management at TFC done!

Fort York Redcoat
11-01-2012, 11:57 AM
Already have mate! But surely every effort is worthwhile at this moment in time, isn't it? I'd streak naked in front of CP24 live in the morning if I thought it would get the job of removing management at TFC done!

Done? No.

Exposure? Ultimate Exposure. You may want to wear a sock.

T-boy
11-01-2012, 11:58 AM
Done? No.

Exposure? Ultimate Exposure. You may want to wear a sock.

One warm foot won't keep me warm! :p

Canary10
11-01-2012, 11:59 AM
Hey T-Boy, given where you were in the summer, I'm impressed you've come out so strongly on this. Well done.

DichioTFC
11-01-2012, 12:17 PM
Mariner in :hide:

Seriously though, just saying that around here makes me feel like the first guy that voted not guilty in 12 Angry Men.

Wombat
11-01-2012, 12:31 PM
Bingo. Here it is right here. The guy is 60 years old and doesn't have a positive record being a first team manager. Actually, he doesn't have much of any record being a first team manager. How is he qualified again?

He played at the highest level - was a fantastic cente forward for Ipswich Town winning the UEFA Cup (Europa league) in the mid 80's and played (and scored many goals) as Englands #9, European Chamionship and World Cup experience.

Unfortunately his credentials as skillfull and powerful player at the top level in football offer no guarantees that he can be a successful manager (just like Bryan Robson - legend for Man Utd and England, but has done nothing with the 4-5 teams he's managed)

ElvistheEvilScotsman
11-01-2012, 12:41 PM
Not renewing unless Mariner and Cochrane are gone. F off with your bonuses for signing up early.

jabbronies
11-01-2012, 01:37 PM
He played at the highest level - was a fantastic cente forward for Ipswich Town winning the UEFA Cup (Europa league) in the mid 80's and played (and scored many goals) as Englands #9, European Chamionship and World Cup experience.

Unfortunately his credentials as skillfull and powerful player at the top level in football offer no guarantees that he can be a successful manager (just like Bryan Robson - legend for Man Utd and England, but has done nothing with the 4-5 teams he's managed)

ya but how long ago did he finish playing? Accorind to Wikipedia he stopped playing in 1993.
Since then he has only had two professional head coaching jobs. Argyle and TFC

narduch
11-01-2012, 01:41 PM
ya but how long ago did he finish playing? Accorind to Wikipedia he stopped playing in 1993.
Since then he has only had two professional head coaching jobs. Argyle and TFC

He's a 59 year old with very little head coaching experience. If he fails at TFC it may be his last job, at least in the lead role.

If he's lucky he can find another assistant job. But his unprofessionalism is going to hurt him.

He could always coach a national team, but I think there is only one that might give him a shot (Bermuda).

Belfast_Boy
11-01-2012, 01:49 PM
TFC can keep him on. I think he'd be a great ticket rep, hotdog guy, usher..... something that he can be good at.

tfcleeds
11-01-2012, 01:59 PM
TFC can keep him on. I think he'd be a great ticket rep, hotdog guy, usher..... something that he can be good at.Just don't put him at the beer stands....you don't want anyone drinking all the profits.

Auzzy
11-01-2012, 02:01 PM
Just don't put him at the beer stands....you don't want anyone drinking all the profits.

^ and if he's selling water, he'll throw the open bottle at you, after spraying you first that is.

narduch
11-01-2012, 02:03 PM
He can help design next seasons shorts.

T-boy
11-01-2012, 02:03 PM
Hey T-Boy, given where you were in the summer, I'm impressed you've come out so strongly on this. Well done.

I will definitely admit when I'm wrong. 14 games later, I was definitely wrong, canary :(

Belfast_Boy
11-01-2012, 02:10 PM
he can be responsible for cleaening the nets.... the ones in the urinals.

Greatest Ripoff
11-01-2012, 02:23 PM
He played at the highest level - was a fantastic cente forward for Ipswich Town winning the UEFA Cup (Europa league) in the mid 80's and played (and scored many goals) as Englands #9, European Chamionship and World Cup experience.

And what about Winter's record as a player? It has very little to do with coaching.

Waggy
11-01-2012, 02:26 PM
While I agree Mariner should go, he's a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. The WHOLE front office has to go. They have to treat this offseason LIKE before season 1. Only keep the academy people (for the sake of the kids). Then set up a properly structured front office, where people have roles and jobs, and aren't in charge of other peoples success or failure when they want that persons job

jloome
11-01-2012, 02:48 PM
Mariner in :hide:

Seriously though, just saying that around here makes me feel like the first guy that voted not guilty in 12 Angry Men.

Henry Fonda had objective arguments on his side. With all due respect, I read your long post in the Aron Winter thread and there's no objective, rationalized position there to support. If you present a sensible rationale, people will debate you, and not just attack you.

DichioTFC
11-01-2012, 03:17 PM
Henry Fonda had objective arguments on his side. With all due respect, I read your long post in the Aron Winter thread and there's no objective, rationalized position there to support. If you present a sensible rationale, people will debate you, and not just attack you.

That's funny, because at the time Fonda made his initial observation, nobody agreed with him either. I guess we'll see about it come next season.

Btw, its *my fault* that people are attacking me, eh? Hilarious.

Suds
11-01-2012, 03:36 PM
Mariner and Cochrane are on crack if they think we have 7 bonafide MLS starters on the roster. And by starters, I mean players who would be in the starting line-up of the top MLS teams.


We maybe have 5 and that includes Frei when he's healthy. We have some young talent, (Henry, Silva, etc.), who will be good MLS players if they continue to develop.


That tells me these guys need to find 6 clear cut MLS level starting players. This is just for the starting line-up; not the required depth as well. Competing for a play-off spot may be the only thing we have next year. Great goal for the club. We're gunning for 5th place!!

jabbronies
11-01-2012, 03:42 PM
Mariner and Cochrane are on crack if they think we have 7 bonafide MLS starters on the roster. And by starters, I mean players who would be in the starting line-up of the top MLS teams.

We maybe have 5 and that includes Frei when he's healthy. We have some young talent, (Henry, Silva, etc.), who will be good MLS players if they continue to develop.

That tells me these guys need to find 6 clear cut MLS level starting players. This is just for the starting line-up; not the required depth as well. Competing for a play-off spot may be the only thing we have next year. Great goal for the club. We're gunning for 5th place!!

Frei

Eckersley
X
ODea
X

X
Frings
Silva / Avila
X

Johnson
Koevermans
Hasli

Suds
11-01-2012, 03:51 PM
Frei

Eckersley
X
ODea
X

X
Frings
Silva / Avila
X

Johnson
Koevermans
Hasli

Avila and Silva are good young talents but not top starters in the MLS - yet.
Kovermans will not be back until mid season IMO. ACL at his age will take a long time to heal.
I'm still not convinced Frings & Hassli will both be back next year. I don't see us going ahead with Koev's, Hassli, and Frings taking up our DP slots next year. Would not be surprised at all to see one of them gone.

Take those guys out and we are in deep shit roster wise.

T-boy
11-01-2012, 04:07 PM
Avila and Silva are good young talents but not top starters in the MLS - yet.
Kovermans will not be back until mid season IMO. ACL at his age will take a long time to heal.
I'm still not convinced Frings & Hassli will both be back next year. I don't see us going ahead with Koev's, Hassli, and Frings taking up our DP slots next year. Would not be surprised at all to see one of them gone.

Take those guys out and we are in deep shit roster wise.

Plus, in my opinion, if we are to be a play-off contender, Johnson should be more of a depth player than a number one starter. He puts the effort in, but we need somebody with more quality than him as a starting 11 player. That leaves a genuine maybe 6 players who are definitely MLS starter quality?! (I would say 7, but you are doubling up Frei and Kocic as MLS starters, and we can only start one at a time).

lobo
11-01-2012, 04:20 PM
That's funny, because at the time Fonda made his initial observation, nobody agreed with him either. I guess we'll see about it come next season.

Btw, its *my fault* that people are attacking me, eh? Hilarious.

Nav, I think the 12 Angry Men analogy is reversed. You're not the first guy to back Mariner, lots of people backed Mariner months ago. Not so much anymore. So, I suggest you might be one of the last guys in the room to see the light, so to speak. Just saying. Most of the rest of us have weighed the evidence and have no doubts, Mariner needs to go and better now than in mid-season next year.

Of the few people willing to publicly declare their vote for Mariner, I really haven't seen much to support their positions. Usually, it is the stability argument, which is not a vote of confidence for Mariner. Followed by the 'he needs more time' argument. But almost always there is caution and reservation and acknowledgement of flaws and concerns. Honestly, I don't know how those concerns can be overlooked after what we have witnessed since Winter left the club. Why is it that some people think those concerns will just go away in 2013?

denime
11-01-2012, 04:45 PM
That's funny, because at the time Fonda made his initial observation, nobody agreed with him either. I guess we'll see about it come next season.

Btw, its *my fault* that people are attacking me, eh? Hilarious.

Yes it is,when you come in "Mariner out" thread and troll Mariner in,what do you expect?

trane
11-01-2012, 05:00 PM
That's funny, because at the time Fonda made his initial observation, nobody agreed with him either. I guess we'll see about it come next season.

Btw, its *my fault* that people are attacking me, eh? Hilarious.


Dude, I was pissed that they kept Mariner, because I thought that he should have been fired with Winter. BUT once he was hired, I gave him a change at at first, depsite playing unattractive football, he got results, BUT then this team has showed me nothing, even less then Winter, in that with Winter I could at least see positives in terms of play ( not results and not enough defensively) but him nothing. ON TOP of that he has a press conference were he says he only has 7 MLS calibre players, well fuckyou very much Mariner, but were you in charge of bringin players to the club, or am I missing something. PLUS I always mantain, that a good manager gets SOME results out of what he has, and MAriner has done didly shit for long, long time.

jloome
11-01-2012, 06:27 PM
That's funny, because at the time Fonda made his initial observation, nobody agreed with him either. I guess we'll see about it come next season.

Btw, its *my fault* that people are attacking me, eh? Hilarious.

You're really of the opinion that someone can't be at fault for being addressed uncivilly? That no one who is addressed in such a manner acted in such an obtuse fashion as to drive others to wit's end?

Ask T-Boy about this conversation, because I had the same one with him about six weeks ago.

By the way, bringing down other peoples' wrath on your own head doesn't make them right for being rude about it, either.

Waggy
11-01-2012, 06:57 PM
Plus, in my opinion, if we are to be a play-off contender, Johnson should be more of a depth player than a number one starter. He puts the effort in, but we need somebody with more quality than him as a starting 11 player. That leaves a genuine maybe 6 players who are definitely MLS starter quality?! (I would say 7, but you are doubling up Frei and Kocic as MLS starters, and we can only start one at a time).

"PLAYOFFS?! Playoffs?! You're asking about playoffs?! Playoffs! I just want to win a game!"

Edit: No relation to anything but through a typo I realized, ya'll should change the name of the Red Patch Boys to the Red Patch Buoys. Because you're the only thing keeping this team afloat through all the shit after shit after shit after shit after...

DaBandit
11-01-2012, 07:45 PM
I think its time that we (the Red Patch Boys, Registered Members of this forum, and TFC fans in general) made a statement that we all agree that Paul Mariner needs to be relieved of his responsibilities as head coach of TFC. I think we all agree that Mariner hasn't shown any form to justify continuing through to next season as manager. I was a "fan" of Mariner to start with, and I won't hide from that. However, even the hardest Mariner "fan' has to admit that he hasn't done anywhere near enough to justify being head coach into 2013. There doesn't need to be much conversation about this, just a total agreement from the RPB's that Mariner has to go. This needs to be a complete vote of "no confidence" from the RPB's and TFC fans.

Please agree with a "Mariner Out" below so we can get numbers behind us to relieve him of the head coach job. I will start off below.

Wow, quite the turn around for you t-boy.. Just 2 months ago you where mr raw raw mariner and saying what a great coach he was.. Glad you finally came around to see what many of us saw after 2 games. ;)

T-boy
11-01-2012, 07:57 PM
Wow, quite the turn around for you t-boy.. Just 2 months ago you where mr raw raw mariner and saying what a great coach he was.. Glad you finally came around to see what many of us saw after 2 games. ;)

I honestly still believe that the opinions on the forum were a little premature! People were judging Mariner when we was actually winning games! And there were protests when we were winning (such BAD timing IMO!). I think the fans should look at any NEW manager (whether he's new to the club, or promoted) with a fresh start. I don't think many fans did that with Mariner, and the opinion of his coaching wasn't based on his management, but due to his prior link to the team and what he had/had not done in his previous role.

I started with a clean slate, judged what I saw. Liked what I saw to start with. But then after 14 games of nothing, changed my mind. That's pretty much the same as with Aron Winter actually, and Preki. For me, the tea lady can be promoted to head coach, and I'm not going to judge until she gets results/bad results.

jloome
11-01-2012, 08:14 PM
I honestly still believe that the opinions on the forum were a little premature! People were judging Mariner when we was actually winning games! And there were protests when we were winning (such BAD timing IMO!). I think the fans should look at any NEW manager (whether he's new to the club, or promoted) with a fresh start. I don't think many fans did that with Mariner, and the opinion of his coaching wasn't based on his management, but due to his prior link to the team and what he had/had not done in his previous role.

I started with a clean slate, judged what I saw. Liked what I saw to start with. But then after 14 games of nothing, changed my mind. That's pretty much the same as with Aron Winter actually, and Preki. For me, the tea lady can be promoted to head coach, and I'm not going to judge until she gets results/bad results.

I would say this is true, within limits. The majority of people weren't going after Mariner after his four games because we went unbeaten. The same is true of Winter when he'd just led us to that draw against Santos. But yes, in both cases there were early adopters who were premature.

jloome
11-01-2012, 08:23 PM
Dude, I was pissed that they kept Mariner, because I thought that he should have been fired with Winter. BUT once he was hired, I gave him a change at at first, depsite playing unattractive football, he got results, BUT then this team has showed me nothing, even less then Winter, in that with Winter I could at least see positives in terms of play ( not results and not enough defensively) but him nothing. ON TOP of that he has a press conference were he says he only has 7 MLS calibre players, well fuckyou very much Mariner, but were you in charge of bringin players to the club, or am I missing something. PLUS I always mantain, that a good manager gets SOME results out of what he has, and MAriner has done didly shit for long, long time.

Hey, I even said I don't really care if he was duplicitous to get the job, if he keeps getting results.

But he didn't just fail, he failed spectacularly. As one poster on the Sportsnet story about Winter pointed out, a lot of people had optimism even after the nine games, because we kept losing squeakers in the 80th minute, games we were at least in, and the team had some class, some cohesive possession and movement. Our defence just SUCKED.

Under Mariner, the team was just comically bad; there were multiple games where we averaged UNDER 40% possession and less than a third of the game in the other half.

gate7
11-01-2012, 11:09 PM
If Mariner loves this team he would quietly resign and join the circus. Sadly if he stays TFC will be the circus.

denime
11-02-2012, 05:42 AM
If Mariner loves this team he would quietly resign and join the circus. Sadly if he stays TFC will be the circus.

TFC is already circus and Mariner is CLOWN,fact!

Pookie
11-02-2012, 06:54 AM
I would say this is true, within limits. The majority of people weren't going after Mariner after his four games because we went unbeaten. The same is true of Winter when he'd just led us to that draw against Santos. But yes, in both cases there were early adopters who were premature.

There were those that were looking at those four games and were noticing that although the points were there, there were some concerning stats.

I know I took some flack for suggesting we save our praise as the teams they were playing were "cream puffs" ... Or least playing like them. New England was a prime example, a 2-2 road draw in which many would be happy on the surface. Except they had about 36% possession which when combined with declining possession in other matches raised flags for some. We even debated it extensively in threads.

For some, the results were not exactly inspiring and warning signs, which appeared very early on were an indication that Mariners team would continually be out possessed, out shot and ultimately out scored over the long term.

Oldtimer
11-02-2012, 07:30 AM
Glad you finally came around to see what many of us saw after 2 games. ;)

I came to my conclusion during Mariner's first game. I'm usually of the "give the coach 2-3 seasons" school, but based on my own youth coaching experience I saw Mariner make so many mistakes that good youth coaches wouldn't make that I realized right away he didn't know what he was doing, something that is inexcusable at the professional level.

Mariner was a good player. Not all good players make good coaches, and some very mediocre players become very good coaches. The skill-set is different.

denime
11-02-2012, 07:59 AM
I came to my conclusion during Mariner's first game. I'm usually of the "give the coach 2-3 seasons" school, but based on my own youth coaching experience I saw Mariner make so many mistakes that good youth coaches wouldn't make that I realized right away he didn't know what he was doing, something that is inexcusable at the professional level.

Mariner was a good player. Not all good players make good coaches, and some very mediocre players become very good coaches. The skill-set is different.

For me it was a week before first game,not because I was told by people who are within MLS and ML$E that Mariner is only good to have a pint with.
Remember the players interviews when Koev,and few other TFC players said that they were told by mariner "when under pressure,clear the ball",that was enough for me to know we will be Booting the ball back to our opponents.

Hoofball 1 on1,something that even REP U7-U14 teams are being thought not to do.

Canary10
11-02-2012, 09:13 AM
I want to put the job Paul Mariner has in front of him next year into a bit of context. The three biggest point turn arounds this season over last were, in order:

1. San Jose: went from 38 to 66 points = 28 point improvement
2. D.C. United: went from 39 to 58 = 19 point improvement
3. Vancouver: 28 to 43 points = 15 point improvement

For Toronto to just make the playoffs next year, they would need a 30 point improvement over this year's results (based on the 2012 final table). In other words, Toronto would need a turnaround even bigger than San Jose's this year, just to make the playoffs.

That's a massive task (for any manager). Does anyone honestly believe Paul Mariner is the guy to do that?

Oldtimer
11-02-2012, 09:22 AM
That's a massive task (for any manager). Does anyone honestly believe Paul Mariner is the guy to do that?

....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14

Davenport
11-02-2012, 09:23 AM
I want to put the job Paul Mariner has in front of him next year into a bit of context. The three biggest point turn arounds this season over last were, in order:

1. San Jose: went from 38 to 66 points = 28 point improvement
2. D.C. United: went from 39 to 58 = 19 point improvement
3. Vancouver: 28 to 43 points = 15 point improvement

For Toronto to just make the playoffs next year, they would need a 30 point improvement over this year's results (based on the 2012 final table). In other words, Toronto would need a turnaround even bigger than San Jose's this year, just to make the playoffs.

That's a massive task (for any manager). Does anyone honestly believe Paul Mariner is the guy to do that?

We'll be lucky to get 30 points total..never mind increase by that many.
We're way behind Vancouver and their bright manager. He's brought in proper players.

TOBOR !
11-02-2012, 09:28 AM
Do those of you who supported Mariner initially (or still do) attribute the 'run of decent results' to him directly, or do you suppose that this was a team that was coming out of it's funk ?

I'm of the mindset that had Winter remained on the club would have maintained a respectable course for the remainder of the year and that the mid-season performance was in spite of Mariner, not because of him.

All he needed was a few games and he turned the squad into the mess that it's in today.

Phil
11-02-2012, 09:34 AM
Do those of you who supported Mariner initially (or still do) attribute the 'run of decent results' to him directly, or do you suppose that this was a team that was coming out of it's funk ?

I'm of the mindset that had Winter remained on the club would have maintained a respectable course for the remainder of the year and that the mid-season performance was in spite of Mariner, not because of him.

All he needed was a few games and he turned the squad into the mess that it's in today.

The limited sucess they had with him post Winter is traditionally called the 'dead cat bounce'.

ryan
11-02-2012, 09:37 AM
I think he's more likely to do a 30pt swing the other way.

Yes, he'll get negative points.

TOBOR !
11-02-2012, 09:38 AM
The limited sucess they had with him post Winter is traditionally called the 'dead cat bounce'.

I don't even think it's that. If the team were truly crap, maybe, but they weren't. Not totally, and not then.

Koevs was back. Things were looking up. We were still looking for a CB, but left to it I think Winter could have steered this ship around.

Guys like Avila and Silva were getting work and Dunfield was coming off the bench.

Mariner thinks he turned the club's fortunes and, but for some unfortunate injuries, has a competetive side.

Davenport
11-02-2012, 09:38 AM
Do those of you who supported Mariner initially (or still do) attribute the 'run of decent results' to him directly, or do you suppose that this was a team that was coming out of it's funk ?

I'm of the mindset that had Winter remained on the club would have maintained a respectable course for the remainder of the year and that the mid-season performance was in spite of Mariner, not because of him.

All he needed was a few games and he turned the squad into the mess that it's in today.

With stories emerging about Winter and how he treated his players I think it was doomed and would have stayed as bad as it was.
He was naive and clueless.
As for Mariner, it's all about him. He was a great player but now just loves the sound of his own voice.
Look at him during a game. How can he command respect from his players when he looks and behaves as he does ?
He's a joke and has no idea on how to build a real team.

maninb
11-02-2012, 10:14 AM
I will NEVER spend another penny on this team as long as PM and EC are in control...The fact that PM thinks he's done a good job is BEYOND INSANITY....and anybody thinking he DESERVES more time can go and piss off.....I'm still so very angry that this CLOWN is still in charge of a team I used to love, and that MLSE has RUINED it....

Canary10
11-02-2012, 10:31 AM
TFC shouldn't be trying to sell the playoffs as a target in 2013, let alone putting the shackle of that target on whoever coaches TFC in 2012 (Paul Mariner or otherwise). Playoffs are two years away at a minimum. And if we need two years, they really need to decide if Mariner can build a team over time.

madzap
11-02-2012, 10:34 AM
I'd love to know what the colour of the sky is in PM's world for him to think that he's the right person to lead this team forward. He does not have the track record anywhere. And to show up at media day in a hoodie, what does he think he is? He is so out of touch.

SACK MARINER!

jabbronies
11-02-2012, 10:38 AM
I don't even think it's that. If the team were truly crap, maybe, but they weren't. Not totally, and not then.

Koevs was back. Things were looking up. We were still looking for a CB, but left to it I think Winter could have steered this ship around.

Guys like Avila and Silva were getting work and Dunfield was coming off the bench.

Mariner thinks he turned the club's fortunes and, but for some unfortunate injuries, has a competetive side.

The team was turning it's fortunes before winter was let go. That 4 game streak was due to what Winter did. Mariner only lit the fire under the players asses and things started to work.

But then Mariner put his own spin on how the team should be playing and we went on a what..14 game winless streak was it?

Belfast_Boy
11-02-2012, 10:43 AM
TFC shouldn't be trying to sell the playoffs as a target in 2013, let alone putting the shackle of that target on whoever coaches TFC in 2012 (Paul Mariner or otherwise). Playoffs are two years away at a minimum. And if we need two years, they really need to decide if Mariner can build a team over time.

this is it!

we need them to build for the future. to set a direction and start moving forward. the playoff goal is not helping things.

they beat the crap out of the golden goose. laying another egg is a year or two away if they start to treat it properly.

tfcleeds
11-02-2012, 10:48 AM
TFC shouldn't be trying to sell the playoffs as a target in 2013, let alone putting the shackle of that target on whoever coaches TFC in 2012 (Paul Mariner or otherwise). Playoffs are two years away at a minimum. And if we need two years, they really need to decide if Mariner can build a team over time.Which is exactly why it's ridiculous to keep him on at this point. I agree, playoffs are 2 years away at a minimum, so might as well get the new guy in now to implement his vision and bring his own guys in. Of course, if the new guy happens to be a Jimmy B or a Danny D, we really are no further ahead at all. Which makes the need for a Director of Football, President, or whatever you want to call it, from OUTSIDE the organization all the more essential, so he can appoint the person to the post. Even if TFC were to make the playoffs under Mariner next season (and I'd bet my mortgage they won't) it would be due to short-sighted decision making at the expense of making this club competitive in the long run, and we'd just be back at square one, if not square negative one, in 2014.

Cashcleaner
11-03-2012, 06:44 AM
Do those of you who supported Mariner initially (or still do) attribute the 'run of decent results' to him directly, or do you suppose that this was a team that was coming out of it's funk ?

I'm of the mindset that had Winter remained on the club would have maintained a respectable course for the remainder of the year and that the mid-season performance was in spite of Mariner, not because of him.

All he needed was a few games and he turned the squad into the mess that it's in today.

What information do you have that would lead you to make that assumption? Winter's TFC record is out there for all to see, but you may need to look at it again: 64 games culminating in 18 wins, 21 draws, and 25 losses.

There is absolutely nothing in those numbers that a person should take inspiration from. Sure, it's entirely plausible (I'd even say likely) that the club could have ended up with a better record at the end of the season with Winter at the helm , but realistically, how much higher in the standings do you think we could have gone? Obviously, Mariner kept the downward trend going and we ended this year dead last with a meager 23 points, but do you think we'd be playoff contenders if Aron stuck around? I highly doubt it.

Sure, maybe having Winter stick around would have earned us more points. But how many more, realisitically could we expect? Ten? That would put us in second-last place ahead of New England. What about fifteen extra points? Well, that would put us ahead of Philadelphia at least. Still no playoffs and 4 points behind Montreal, though.

So yeah, I think there is a good chance that Winter could have positioned us maybe as high as 17th, 16th, or possibly even 15th spot at the end of the season, but would that have been in any way considered a success for the team? Because I gotta tell you, we'd be lowering the bar pretty low if it was.

Pookie
11-03-2012, 07:06 AM
I don't even think it's that. If the team were truly crap, maybe, but they weren't. Not totally, and not then.

Koevs was back. Things were looking up. We were still looking for a CB, but left to it I think Winter could have steered this ship around.

Guys like Avila and Silva were getting work and Dunfield was coming off the bench.

Mariner thinks he turned the club's fortunes and, but for some unfortunate injuries, has a competetive side.

Don't forget the cream puffs

Cashcleaner
11-03-2012, 07:08 AM
TFC shouldn't be trying to sell the playoffs as a target in 2013, let alone putting the shackle of that target on whoever coaches TFC in 2012 (Paul Mariner or otherwise). Playoffs are two years away at a minimum. And if we need two years, they really need to decide if Mariner can build a team over time.

This line of thinking will doom us. The playoffs should be an expectation every season, especially when you consider the fact that at the start of the season, every team has slightly more than a 50% chance of making them before a ball is even kicked.

To be honest, I don't know why you would even consider this to be acceptable after you pointed out in your previous post other teams which had made significant improvements to their record after just one season.


I want to put the job Paul Mariner has in front of him next year into a bit of context. The three biggest point turn around this season over last were, in order:

1. San Jose: went from 38 to 66 points = 28 point improvement
2. D.C. United: went from 39 to 58 = 19 point improvement
3. Vancouver: 28 to 43 points = 15 point improvement

For Toronto to just make the playoffs next year, they would need a 30 point improvement over this year's results (based on the 2012 final table). In other words, Toronto would need a turnaround even bigger than San Jose's this year, just to make the playoffs.

That's a massive task (for any manager). Does anyone honestly believe Paul Mariner is the guy to do that?

This is further proof that teams in MLS simply should not require extensive two or three year rebuilds!

Turning TFC around should be no different. In fact, we must demand it to be so, as MLSE has so much more resources at it's disposal than any of those teams.

gomesv
11-03-2012, 07:17 AM
This line of thinking will doom us. The playoffs should be an expectation every season, especially when you consider the fact that at the start of the season, every team has slightly more than a 50% chance of making them before a ball is even kicked.

To be honest, I don't know why you would even consider this to be acceptable after you pointed out in your previous post other teams which had made significant improvements to their record after just one season.



This is further proof that teams in MLS simply should not require extensive two or three year rebuilds!

Turning TFC around should be no different. In fact, we must demand it to be so, as MLSE has so much more resources at it's disposal than any of those teams.


Because IT IS TFC that's why it's different, if they had the proper structure and people.....i.e. not Mariner then your point is valid.

ryan
11-03-2012, 08:56 AM
This line of thinking will doom us. The playoffs should be an expectation every season, especially when you consider the fact that at the start of the season, every team has slightly more than a 50% chance of making them before a ball is even kicked.

To be honest, I don't know why you would even consider this to be acceptable after you pointed out in your previous post other teams which had made significant improvements to their record after just one season.



This is further proof that teams in MLS simply should not require extensive two or three year rebuilds!

Turning TFC around should be no different. In fact, we must demand it to be so, as MLSE has so much more resources at it's disposal than any of those teams.

They're lacking in certain resources:

-Structure
-Football IQ
-Vision


And have an over abundance of:

-Politics
-Bureaucracy
-Bullshit


No amount of financial clout can overcome that.

T-boy
11-03-2012, 11:06 AM
This line of thinking will doom us. The playoffs should be an expectation every season, especially when you consider the fact that at the start of the season, every team has slightly more than a 50% chance of making them before a ball is even kicked.

To be honest, I don't know why you would even consider this to be acceptable after you pointed out in your previous post other teams which had made significant improvements to their record after just one season.



This is further proof that teams in MLS simply should not require extensive two or three year rebuilds!

Turning TFC around should be no different. In fact, we must demand it to be so, as MLSE has so much more resources at it's disposal than any of those teams.

Unfortunately resources has little to do with improvement in the MLS. Due to the limitations of the league, TFC simply can't go out and just buy themselves success. They are limited by the cap, and international spots, etc. Any rapid improvement requires clever management, not resources. Is Mariner clever enough to get 30 more points within one season?

v00d00daddy
11-03-2012, 11:39 AM
Unfortunately resources has little to do with improvement in the MLS. Due to the limitations of the league, TFC simply can't go out and just buy themselves success. They are limited by the cap, and international spots, etc. Any rapid improvement requires clever management, not resources. Is Mariner clever enough to get 30 more points within one season?

No he's not. Lol

As for limitations...I totally agree with you but you forgot one HUGE one.

We are now limited by our reputation.

TFC are literally an afterthought on the MLS landscape.

What young promising player is gonna wanna come here to ply his trade?

What MLS veteran views TFC as a place he'd like to come to in the hopes of winning?

What older, experienced player (ie Frings/Koevermans type) is going to want to come here to finish his career on a high note and help younger players along?

I suspect it will be very few.

We'll get Dunfield type MLSers.

We'll get Silva type youngsters who will see how Mariner values of player of his ilk.

And we'll have experienced, once world class players who see how little value and appreciation is put into a guy like Frings and say, "no thanks".

I see literally nothing to be optimisitic about unless your name is Ashtone Morgan and I don't think it'll be long before he's gone too.

jloome
11-03-2012, 11:44 AM
No he's not. Lol

As for limitations...I totally agree with you but you forgot one HUGE one.

We are now limited by our reputation.

TFC are literally an afterthought on the MLS landscape.

What young promising player is gonna wanna come here to ply his trade?

What MLS veteran views TFC as a place he'd like to come to in the hopes of winning?

What older, experienced player (ie Frings/Koevermans type) is going to want to come here to finish his career on a high note and help younger players along?

I suspect it will be very few.

We'll get Dunfield type MLSers.

We'll get Silva type youngsters who will see how Mariner values of player of his ilk.

And we'll have experienced, once world class players who see how little value and appreciation is put into a guy like Frings and say, "no thanks".

I see literally nothing to be optimisitic about unless your name is Ashtone Morgan and I don't think it'll be long before he's gone too.

Considering that Paul Mariner seems interested in converting him to a winger, despite his strengths being his tackling and recovery and not his dribbling, do you blame him? The guy has spent nearly a decade learning a trade only to have this guy tell him he's more useful playing up field, and Jeremy Hall, a natural winger who has always -- always -- been a rotten defender, is playing fullback.

It's Bizarro world.

Belfast_Boy
11-03-2012, 12:27 PM
All very valid points.
One thing can start us in the right direction. A structural rebuild.
Bribe, buy or steal the proper prez. They will sack Mariner and hire a real manager. Then we can bring in quality talent. It's the only way out of this mess.

MisterMacphisto
11-03-2012, 12:30 PM
Only poor renewal numbers will get Mariner + Cochrane removed at this point, in my opinion.

If renewals are good, Anselmi just bought himself 6 more months until he has to make a tough decision.

This

denime
11-03-2012, 02:09 PM
This line of thinking will doom us. The playoffs should be an expectation every season, especially when you consider the fact that at the start of the season, every team has slightly more than a 50% chance of making them before a ball is even kicked.

To be honest, I don't know why you would even consider this to be acceptable after you pointed out in your previous post other teams which had made significant improvements to their record after just one season.



This is further proof that teams in MLS simply should not require extensive two or three year rebuilds!

Turning TFC around should be no different. In fact, we must demand it to be so, as MLSE has so much more resources at it's disposal than any of those teams.


Actually your line of thinking brought us where we are right now,"playoffs next year or GTFO" is reason why we have 7th coach in 6 years.It is not lowering the expectation it's being realistic,with TFC you can't expect playoffs in next 2-3 years if and only IF TFC FO does the right moves and restructure the whole organization from Top to Bottom.

If Winter was given the time to finished this season and than got fired while new coach with SAME PHILOSOPHY was signed ,we would be at least 1 year closer to playoffs and good foundation for years to come,but because of your line of thinking TFC FO panicked and pulled the trigger after 16 months or good 20 months to early. After 0-9 season was done they could let him finish the season,Winter's team was turning the corner at that point and few wins that we got You or could have been on TFC bench and we would win those games,Mariner did fuck all to improve the team,the academy,the style of play,and now once again TFC FO is giving the coach to make a playoffs next year or get sucked,guess what that means to us?2013 new start with 8th coach and same old story,back to square 1.

Cashcleaner
11-03-2012, 06:05 PM
Because IT IS TFC that's why it's different, if they had the proper structure and people.....i.e. not Mariner then your point is valid.

That's what I'm getting at, though. There's absolutely no good reason why TFC has gone 6 full seasons with no playoffs. By now, given the odds, we should have accidentally made playoffs! The odds of any team not doing so in 6 seasons is staggering!


They're lacking in certain resources:

-Structure
-Football IQ
-Vision

And have an over abundance of:

-Politics
-Bureaucracy
-Bullshit


No amount of financial clout can overcome that.

Exactly. That's why our current state is unacceptable. These are problems that have plagued this team from the first season, yet no concrete steps to rectify them have been taken.


Unfortunately resources has little to do with improvement in the MLS. Due to the limitations of the league, TFC simply can't go out and just buy themselves success. They are limited by the cap, and international spots, etc. Any rapid improvement requires clever management, not resources. Is Mariner clever enough to get 30 more points within one season?

I disagree. When a club has world class facilities, support staff, trainers, coaches, and managers - the chance of success does increase. You're absolutely right in that we are still held to a cap and there are certain restrictions on player acquisitions, but a limit on how much we can pay for talent is only one of many factors which can determine a club's success.


Actually your line of thinking brought us where we are right now,"playoffs next year or GTFO" is reason why we have 7th coach in 6 years. It is not lowering the expectation it's being realistic,with TFC you can't expect playoffs in next 2-3 years if and only IF TFC FO does the right moves and restructure the whole organization from Top to Bottom.

If Winter was given the time to finished this season and than got fired while new coach with SAME PHILOSOPHY was signed ,we would be at least 1 year closer to playoffs and good foundation for years to come,but because of your line of thinking TFC FO panicked and pulled the trigger after 16 months or good 20 months to early. After 0-9 season was done they could let him finish the season,Winter's team was turning the corner at that point and few wins that we got You or could have been on TFC bench and we would win those games,Mariner did fuck all to improve the team,the academy,the style of play,and now once again TFC FO is giving the coach to make a playoffs next year or get sucked,guess what that means to us?2013 new start with 8th coach and same old story,back to square 1.

My argument isn't: "playoffs or GTFO", my argument is pretty much exactly what I wrote - extensive builds or rebuilds (like "5-year plans", for example) are virtually unheard of in MLS. No other team seems to require that amount of time, yet we do. I'm assuming that by your post you're wanting Mariner to have another season to turn things around. That's not terribly unreasonable. I personally think coaches or managers need an off-season to make their fair share of personnel changes. My question to you is what are your expectations for 2013?

Yohan
11-03-2012, 06:25 PM
My argument isn't: "playoffs or GTFO", my argument is pretty much exactly what I wrote - extensive builds or rebuilds (like "5-year plans", for example) are virtually unheard of in MLS. No other team seems to require that amount of time, yet we do. I'm assuming that by your post you're wanting Mariner to have another season to turn things around. That's not terribly unreasonable. I personally think coaches or managers need an off-season to make their fair share of personnel changes. My question to you is what are your expectations for 2013?

5 yr plan is ridiculous, but not unheard of MLS teams to fail to make the playoffs in 3 years. Some teams manage to cobble together a semi decent team quickly, others take longer. (IE, DC United who went 5 yrs w/o playoffs until this year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MLS_club_post-season_droughts#Post-season_appearance_droughts

Sad thing is, now with DC finally making the playoffs, other than expansion Mtl and Portland, TFC is the only MLS team to fail to make the playoffs since 2009.

denime
11-03-2012, 07:55 PM
I'm assuming that by your post you're wanting Mariner to have another season to turn things around.
My question to you is what are your expectations for 2013?

God NO ,I WANT MARINER FIRED TOMORROW!!!!

I have no TFC expectations for 2013,ZERO!

My only expectation is Mariner to get fired mid season and us being back to Square 1 or should I say 2007.


and BTW,Winter did not have 5 years plan,it was 2-3 but he was cut after 16 months because playoff expectations in 2012.

Wull
11-03-2012, 08:26 PM
Winter wasn't fired just because of results, he was fired because he lost the dressing room and the Teflon twins went behind his back to management. Our dressing room is still the same shitshow it has always been because the same faces are still around it prodding and poking I.e. cochrane and Brennan. They've finally found a manager willing to play the game too. Make no mistake, until this club is razed to the ground we will never get past the dysfunctional mess that seeps out at the most important moments because of the various cliques and power struggles. Half of these players didn't give a shit under either manager and they need to be shipped out as well when the new president comes in

Cashcleaner
11-03-2012, 09:26 PM
God NO ,I WANT MARINER FIRED TOMORROW!!!!

I have no TFC expectations for 2013,ZERO!

My only expectation is Mariner to get fired mid season and us being back to Square 1 or should I say 2007.

and BTW,Winter did not have 5 years plan,it was 2-3 but he was cut after 16 months because playoff expectations in 2012.

So why is it okay to demand Mariner out now but not Winter at the time? Geeze denime, I think he still needs an off-season to acquire who he thinks we need before casting judgement. I at least want to see if the new guy can land any solid new players, you want him out before that, and somehow I'm the "playoffs next year or GTFO" guy? That's a bit contradictory, don't you think?

And I think we're all aware that Winter didn't have a 5-year plan. That was simply one example that we would all recognize - mostly because it was the one piece of bullshit that smelled the worst.

TFC Cityboy
11-03-2012, 09:43 PM
Winter wasn't fired just because of results, he was fired because he lost the dressing room and the Teflon twins went behind his back to management. Our dressing room is still the same shitshow it has always been because the same faces are still around it prodding and poking I.e. cochrane and Brennan. They've finally found a manager willing to play the game too. Make no mistake, until this club is razed to the ground we will never get past the dysfunctional mess that seeps out at the most important moments because of the various cliques and power struggles. Half of these players didn't give a shit under either manager and they need to be shipped out as well when the new president comes in

SPOT ON, MATE ( tho you spelled faeces wrong!

denime
11-03-2012, 09:54 PM
So why is it okay to demand Mariner out now but not Winter at the time? Geeze denime, I think he still needs an off-season to acquire who he thinks we need before casting judgement. I at least want to see if the new guy can land any solid new players, you want him out before that, and somehow I'm the "playoffs next year or GTFO" guy? That's a bit contradictory, don't you think?

And I think we're all aware that Winter didn't have a 5-year plan. That was simply one example that we would all recognize - mostly because it was the one piece of bullshit that smelled the worst.

LOL Like last 6 months wasn't enough,last win was in July,winless in 14 wasn't enough,you would give him an off season.:facepalm:

Other words you prefer hooofball from Mariner over actual soccer that Winter tried to implement,and if you are ready to give Mariner another year of his HOOFball without any plan,I'm sorry your expectations are aether to low, since you are ok with mariners mediocrity and we will end up with him dead last again,or to high since you actually expect from that Mariner "the guy who is good in what he is doing" to have a game plan and somehow push for playoffs,If he was able to sign a player you think he would not do it in July?

Cashcleaner
11-03-2012, 11:44 PM
^ I wouldn't give Mariner the same length of time that Winter got, but more than three quarters of a season. What's wrong with you? First I'm too eager to run guys out the door, now I want to keep them too long. Do you have anything else you want to say on my behalf? I'm just asking because you're tried to put your words in my mouth a few times already.

I'm certainly unhappy with Mariner's performance as most people are, but I just gotta see how the off-season and the start of 2013 is gonna play out. Is that really as incredibly unreasonable as you seem to be implying?

v00d00daddy
11-04-2012, 08:10 AM
^ I wouldn't give Mariner the same length of time that Winter got, but more than three quarters of a season. What's wrong with you? First I'm too eager to run guys out the door, now I want to keep them too long. Do you have anything else you want to say on my behalf? I'm just asking because you're tried to put your words in my mouth a few times already.

I'm certainly unhappy with Mariner's performance as most people are, but I just gotta see how the off-season and the start of 2013 is gonna play out. Is that really as incredibly unreasonable as you seem to be implying?

Simple queston:

What has Mariner done in his time here that gives you enough optimism that you're willing to see what he can do with an off season?
-tactics
-player management
-attitude
-player selection
-vision

gomesv
11-04-2012, 10:08 AM
^ I wouldn't give Mariner the same length of time that Winter got, but more than three quarters of a season. What's wrong with you? First I'm too eager to run guys out the door, now I want to keep them too long. Do you have anything else you want to say on my behalf? I'm just asking because you're tried to put your words in my mouth a few times already.

I'm certainly unhappy with Mariner's performance as most people are, but I just gotta see how the off-season and the start of 2013 is gonna play out. Is that really as incredibly unreasonable as you seem to be implying?



Honestly haven't you seen enough, the guy didn't arrive yesterday, he's been here as long as Winter, and when he took over.....I mean do we really have to state all the bad trades and players he's brought in, in such a short period of time, never mind his unwatchable brand of football......Mariner out NOW!

Ask yourself can we really afford to give him the keys to this circus?

Fort York Redcoat
11-04-2012, 10:17 AM
It's possible that some are just being consistent with their expectations of any coach.

Winter got a full season so Mariner should get a full season.

I don't agree with it but I see the principle behind it.

I personally hate mid season changes to management. It's always a hindrance.

gomesv
11-04-2012, 10:54 AM
It's possible that some are just being consistent with their expectations of any coach.

Winter got a full season so Mariner should get a full season.

I don't agree with it but I see the principle behind it.

I personally hate mid season changes to management. It's always a hindrance.



I guess thats the concern I have, if he was just a COACH them maybe, but the descision making for this club starts and stops with him, that is way to scary of a proposition for me.
Again maybe the arguement is not Mariner as coach, although I think he is aweful, but essentially at this point he is the GUY....thats not good enough.

Cashcleaner
11-04-2012, 01:46 PM
It's possible that some are just being consistent with their expectations of any coach.

Winter got a full season so Mariner should get a full season.

I don't agree with it but I see the principle behind it.

I personally hate mid season changes to management. It's always a hindrance.

Don't get me wrong, if a coach is that bad, we probably don't need a full season to determine to make an assessment. I also agree that changing horses mid-stride is something we should try to avoid. The problem is that right now we to have a a team that was assembled by two individuals with what appears to be some very different approaches. I have my doubts Mariner can turn things around. In fact, I'm pretty certain he can't. But nothing is assured and I want to see what he can do if given the opportunity to build a roster more to his liking. That's all.

But hey, if the FO cuts him lose tomorrow, I'm okay with that too. There's really no extreme point-of-view I have on this issue.

prizby
11-04-2012, 02:41 PM
the question I have is Mariner said when he took over he wanted to put "more pride in the shirt"...i saw less and less pride in shirt/badge as the season got on

burlington Red
11-04-2012, 03:00 PM
I think this is a fine initiative to undertake here, but I'd clarify one thing first - are you a Red Patch Boy (since you refer to us as "we")? As far as I can see, you aren't a member. Possible your status hasn't been updated?

Either way, I agree with you. But if you want to organize something in the name of the group, you should at least become part of the group.

- Scott

I think the question you should be asking is why the RPB have done nothing to date on this themselves. All protests organised at last game were not official RPB santicioned protests.

PAOK17
11-04-2012, 03:15 PM
Just like even the biggest Winter supporters agree that there is no way a manager can survive an 0-9 streak, I'm sure the Mariner supporters can easily agree that there is no way a manager can go 14 games without a win and still expect to coach. Even if he was brought in as a fresh face he still wouldn't be asked to continue the following year. But he was part of the shit show that brought us here. At 60 he has no coaching credentials that support him. Good at what he does? Really? What is that you have done and how was it good? Winter lost the dressing room but I have never seen players in a closing press conference unsure about confidence in their coach. Let's be honest, those who he hasn't pissed off aren't good enough to be here anyway.

And again, before anyone goes the foolish route of blaming injuries as to why we went on that streak, let me remind you all that the highest ranked team we beat this year was Vancouver. Even at full strength, the best we could beat was the worst team to make the playoffs...a good 10 points fewer than our fifth placed team in the East. I am confident that we would have gotten those wins if Anselmi himself was coach.

TOBOR !
11-05-2012, 08:13 AM
What information do you have that would lead you to make that assumption? Winter's TFC record is out there for all to see, but you may need to look at it again: 64 games culminating in 18 wins, 21 draws, and 25 losses.

There is absolutely nothing in those numbers that a person should take inspiration from. Sure, it's entirely plausible (I'd even say likely) that the club could have ended up with a better record at the end of the season with Winter at the helm , but realistically, how much higher in the standings do you think we could have gone? Obviously, Mariner kept the downward trend going and we ended this year dead last with a meager 23 points, but do you think we'd be playoff contenders if Aron stuck around? I highly doubt it.

Sure, maybe having Winter stick around would have earned us more points. But how many more, realisitically could we expect? Ten? That would put us in second-last place ahead of New England. What about fifteen extra points? Well, that would put us ahead of Philadelphia at least. Still no playoffs and 4 points behind Montreal, though.

So yeah, I think there is a good chance that Winter could have positioned us maybe as high as 17th, 16th, or possibly even 15th spot at the end of the season, but would that have been in any way considered a success for the team? Because I gotta tell you, we'd be lowering the bar pretty low if it was.

I don't think you're asking me what proof I have that Mariner turned the team into a pile of crap, but rather what evidence there is that Winter would have taken us in a upward trajectory.

Do I have that right ?

Well, I don't have any.

All I have is the feeling that the play on the field was a lot more entertaining than what it was replaced with once Mariner took the helm. The future seemed brighter (even while losing 9 on the trot)... call it growing pains. Sorting shit out.

It's like we were half way through The Two Towers and the kids got scared so we had to leave - never getting to see The Return of the King (having instead to creep into the next theater and watch what was left of Encino Man).

That's enough for me.

tfcleeds
11-05-2012, 08:30 AM
^Lol...comparison between Mariner football and Encino Man...

Fort York Redcoat
11-05-2012, 08:48 AM
All I have is the feeling that the play on the field was a lot more entertaining than what it was replaced with once Mariner took the helm. The future seemed brighter (even while losing 9 on the trot)... call it growing pains. Sorting shit out.



This is important to note/discuss for me. There was a considerable amount of aggro over this point during the 9 losses at the start of the year. I'd like to know how people stand on this in retrospect. Was Winter's team more entertaining? All the seething animosity about results at all costs have lead me here to this offseason where results didn't happen and we've done nothing to progress with any one style of play.

Oldtimer
11-05-2012, 08:55 AM
This is important to note/discuss for me. There was a considerable amount of aggro over this point during the 9 losses at the start of the year. I'd like to know how people stand on this in retrospect. Was Winter's team more entertaining? All the seething animosity about results at all costs have lead me here to this offseason where results didn't happen and we've done nothing to progress with any one style of play.

I think Winter had a lot of support at the beginning of the year after that decent enough run at the end of 2011. 0-9 was enough to shake most people from that position.

Originally I wanted to give him time. At some point I realized that Winter was too inflexible to be successful in MLS. I still hold to that, but concede that his play looked a lot nicer than bootball.

I think the TFC coach that I've liked the best over the years personality-wise was John Carver; the one who probably was the most likely to make TFC successful was Chris Cummins, but he was never given a chance by Mo.

The one I've disliked the most is Paul Mariner, even more than Preki, which speaks volumes.

narduch
11-05-2012, 09:15 AM
I think too much emphasis is being put on Winter v Mariner.

We actually played some pretty boring soccer under Winter too, at times.

I honestly wanted Winter fired by 0-5. But I would have prefered an entire FO purge at that time. This way the team had 2 transfer windows to prepare for 2013 (the MLS season was pretty much over by than anyways).

Keeping Mariner now is only setting us back another year or two. The next rebuild won't be able to start until he is gone (along with Cochrane of course).

brad
11-05-2012, 09:21 AM
^ I wouldn't give Mariner the same length of time that Winter got, but more than three quarters of a season. What's wrong with you? First I'm too eager to run guys out the door, now I want to keep them too long. Do you have anything else you want to say on my behalf? I'm just asking because you're tried to put your words in my mouth a few times already.

I'm certainly unhappy with Mariner's performance as most people are, but I just gotta see how the off-season and the start of 2013 is gonna play out. Is that really as incredibly unreasonable as you seem to be implying?

What worries me about this? We are giving the keys to the off season to someone that has shown no indication that they can source MLS talent. That same person is given the "MLS playoffs or your are out" ultimatum.

I expect to see our future mortgaged for instant gratification - and I don't mean a playoff winning or top team, but a mediocre side attempting to sneak into the playoffs. I expect to see promising you players like Silva and Morgan dealt out for MLS vet's that can perform today. I expect draft picks to get dealt out for MLS players that can perform today.

That is my main problem with keeping him. We are in a position where a competent manager can start to build a real team. Hassli can come off the books and we are down to two DP's. After next season we can be down to none - which gives us a huge amount of cap space to use on players that are not old and broken. We have a number of under performers on option years apparently that can be cleared out and replaced.

So for me it's not just about yet another unsuccessful year under Mariner, it's the fact that he can easily screw us for the next several years by bringing in the wrong players.

That said, I have no faith in this guy. Remember, this guy was supposed to be the MLS expert that would navigate complex system and bring us the talent that we need. So far we have seen him:

grossly overpay for British players
deal a promising draft pick out for an injured DP (in what I am guessing was a desperation move to go on a good short term run to make him look better and/or a directive from the brass to help with season seat sales)
sign a bunch of MLS rejects
a strange and more than slightly suspicious focus on players from Bermuda.
talking up under performing/mediocre players while calling our and marginalizing our few bright spots.
Benching players that could contribute giving them no reason and thereby giving them no motivation or ability to up their game and fight their way into the the first team.
Playing players out of position while the benched players are rotting away.
publically throwing players under the bus. Calling out Frings, saying he wouldn't have drafted Silva first, ect.


What I haven't seen is this MLS expert do one deal within the MLS that made me think he actually knows how to work the league.

I could go on and on, but this guy has shown nothing to indicate he should stay. Nothing.

brad
11-05-2012, 09:28 AM
This is important to note/discuss for me. There was a considerable amount of aggro over this point during the 9 losses at the start of the year. I'd like to know how people stand on this in retrospect. Was Winter's team more entertaining? All the seething animosity about results at all costs have lead me here to this offseason where results didn't happen and we've done nothing to progress with any one style of play.

I actually found Winters football boring and frustrating. Not because of what he was trying to accomplish, but because of how it was playing out. There were brief moments when things came together that were great to watch, but for the most part I saw a team struggling with the basics trying to play a system that they were not capable of playing. I just saw exceeding poor execution, and rank most of what I saw as boring as Prekiball.

That said - the CL under Winter did provide some of our most entertaining matches. But I found the league painfully boring most of the time.

nonc
11-05-2012, 09:53 AM
the more renewals, the less chance Mariner is booted

jabbronies
11-05-2012, 09:56 AM
the more renewals, the less chance Mariner is booted

It doesn't matter how many people renew. Whether it's 5 people or 15000 people. Mariner's job is not tied to season ticket renewals. You guys need to get that idea out of your head.

narduch
11-05-2012, 10:14 AM
It doesn't matter how many people renew. Whether it's 5 people or 15000 people. Mariner's job is not tied to season ticket renewals. You guys need to get that idea out of your head.

I disagree.

If the renewals are bad enough, I could see a change made. Mariner is the most visible member of the front office. I could see him being sacrificed.

We know they are already looking for his replacement (ie the Heath debacle).

Oldtimer
11-05-2012, 10:26 AM
I disagree.

If the renewals are bad enough, I could see a change made. Mariner is the most visible member of the front office. I could see him being sacrificed.

We know they are already looking for his replacement (ie the Heath debacle).

At this point, Mariner is going nowhere, no matter what happens with Season Seat sales. They would have axed him already if that was going to be the plan. Right now he gets a free pass from Anselmi for his record last season. He'll be judged by how the team does in 2013. If it goes 0-14, he'll be out.

Heath was not a replacement, but an assistant (replacing BDK). Speculation that he was a replacement came from an early tweet by a TFC reporter that was later clarified. He was never a replacement for Mr. Bootball.

narduch
11-05-2012, 10:35 AM
At this point, Mariner is going nowhere, no matter what happens with Season Seat sales. They would have axed him already if that was going to be the plan. Right now he gets a free pass from Anselmi for his record last season. He'll be judged by how the team does in 2013. If it goes 0-14, he'll be out.

Heath was not a replacement, but an assistant (replacing BDK). Speculation that he was a replacement came from an early tweet by a TFC reporter that was later clarified. He was never a replacement for Mr. Bootball.

The renewal deadline is November 23. I think everything is up in the air until that date passes.

Heath was being signed as a future Mariner replacement.

Oldtimer
11-05-2012, 10:41 AM
The renewal deadline is November 23. I think everything is up in the air until that date passes.

Heath was being signed as a future Mariner replacement.

It didn't mean the following season. Assistant coaches are often groomed for eventually taking over, it's not unusual.

I don't believe anything is up in the air at all. It's wishful thinking to think that Mariner will be fired at this point.

denime
11-05-2012, 10:52 AM
It didn't mean the following season. Assistant coaches are often groomed for eventually taking over, it's not unusual.

I don't believe anything is up in the air at all. It's wishful thinking to think that Mariner will be fired at this point.

True,but he was promised head coach position from Cochrane,something that Mariner did not know about,until it was published in Orlando newspapers.

Mariner is here to stay for the off season,regardless how renewals will go,if TFC goes 0-3 next year he should be fired on the spot,no 0-4 or 0-5 god forbid winless in 14.

DangerRed
11-05-2012, 10:59 AM
Anyone who thinks either of Uncle Paul or the Earl Himself are getting tossed out before the new season starts, or that their jobs are tied to renewals, is dreaming. I have it on good authority that Paul will remain as the head of the club when the 2013 season starts, which isn't exactly news since the club has pretty much told you all the same thing. If they were going to axe him, they would've done so already rather than sending him to overpay for more British mediocrity (aka "scouting").

If you're "renewing only with a management change," you should reconsider. There will not be one. You're either renewing with Mariner, or you're not.

narduch
11-05-2012, 11:06 AM
I think Cochrane's job is fairly safe. He is known only on TFC forums.

Mariner is the club's visible leader.

As for Mariner 'scouting', I'm still convinced its really just a vacation.

And considering this organizations track record, what better time to stab a guy in the back than when he's not around.

jabbronies
11-05-2012, 12:04 PM
If Mariner's job is directly related to season ticket renewals, then this club is more fucked and hopless than we all could imagine.

But to be honest, now that I think about it, I could imagine the club basing everything on renewals. His shitty results and poor style of football he has brought to the club doesn't seem to have an effect on his status here.

But I really doubt it.

jloome
11-05-2012, 12:06 PM
Anyone who thinks either of Uncle Paul or the Earl Himself are getting tossed out before the new season starts, or that their jobs are tied to renewals, is dreaming. I have it on good authority that Paul will remain as the head of the club when the 2013 season starts, which isn't exactly news since the club has pretty much told you all the same thing. If they were going to axe him, they would've done so already rather than sending him to overpay for more British mediocrity (aka "scouting").

If you're "renewing only with a management change," you should reconsider. There will not be one. You're either renewing with Mariner, or you're not.

"If they were going to axe him, they would've done so already" -- Why? This is TFC. They don't have a fucking clue.

But we do know that Anselmi has told multiple people on this board they're looking for an experienced leader, in response to requests for a club president.

You think Tom Anselmi is going to tell a new prez "oh, but you have to keep the coach we've already got?"

Mariner's future depends on whom they hire and what he wants. If he's competent, we'll have a new coach before next season starts.

Fort York Redcoat
11-05-2012, 12:14 PM
Anyone who thinks either of Uncle Paul or the Earl Himself are getting tossed out before the new season starts, or that their jobs are tied to renewals, is dreaming. I have it on good authority that Paul will remain as the head of the club when the 2013 season starts, which isn't exactly news since the club has pretty much told you all the same thing. If they were going to axe him, they would've done so already rather than sending him to overpay for more British mediocrity (aka "scouting").

If you're "renewing only with a management change," you should reconsider. There will not be one. You're either renewing with Mariner, or you're not.

What astounds me about this post is your accusation that people are dreaming if they don't trust Upper Management at their word. I don't doubt your confidence in your source. I doubt the people responsible for the decision to be incapable of changing their minds.

Canary10
11-05-2012, 12:34 PM
This line of thinking will doom us. The playoffs should be an expectation every season, especially when you consider the fact that at the start of the season, every team has slightly more than a 50% chance of making them before a ball is even kicked.

To be honest, I don't know why you would even consider this to be acceptable after you pointed out in your previous post other teams which had made significant improvements to their record after just one season.



This is further proof that teams in MLS simply should not require extensive two or three year rebuilds!

Turning TFC around should be no different. In fact, we must demand it to be so, as MLSE has so much more resources at it's disposal than any of those teams.

I hear what you're saying. But the idea that we will have a turn around bigger than any of this year's really stretches credibility to me. A 19 point turnaround like DC's might be possible. A 30 point turnaround? To me that's on par with Winter saying at 0-9 that he guaranteed playoffs, and is lying to fans. I can't see the team that has never done anything right on the field all of a sudden achieving one of the biggest turnarounds in the history of MLS.

DangerRed
11-05-2012, 12:53 PM
"If they were going to axe him, they would've done so already" -- Why? This is TFC. They don't have a fucking clue.

But we do know that Anselmi has told multiple people on this board they're looking for an experienced leader, in response to requests for a club president.

You think Tom Anselmi is going to tell a new prez "oh, but you have to keep the coach we've already got?"

Mariner's future depends on whom they hire and what he wants. If he's competent, we'll have a new coach before next season starts.

I can tell you it's going to be a huge surprise to a great many people in the FO if Paul Mariner is NOT the coach when the next season starts. They are looking to hire a president, yes. If they hire him in time, I predict he will say something along the lines of: "I will continue to rely on the depth of experience Paul brings to the table during his years in MLS management and the lessons learned as he navigated the club through its toughest, most challenging season ever." Mariner from that day on will be the inevitable millstone around the president's neck, and will serve the convenient scapegoat when the club looks to place blame for a shitty 2013 season this time next year.

Anywho, what do I know. You've made your prediction and I've made mine. Time will tell.

narduch
11-05-2012, 01:04 PM
I hear what you're saying. But the idea that we will have a turn around bigger than any of this year's really stretches credibility to me. A 19 point turnaround like DC's might be possible. A 30 point turnaround? To me that's on par with Winter saying at 0-9 that he guaranteed playoffs, and is lying to fans. I can't see the team that has never done anything right on the field all of a sudden achieving one of the biggest turnarounds in the history of MLS.

I think with new management it would be possible. Sure, a long shot, but possible.

But under Mariner + Cochrane? No way. They will not finish above the current top 7 in the East. They will battle New England for dead last.

Fort York Redcoat
11-05-2012, 01:05 PM
I can tell you it's going to be a huge surprise to a great many people in the FO if Paul Mariner is NOT the coach when the next season starts.

This FO has had plenty of surprises over this very season, much less its history.

Feel free to gloat if we still have Mariner as coach next year if it gives you any consolation.

narduch
11-05-2012, 01:12 PM
This is an organization that has its ticket reps ask its fans what it thinks about Mariner. It also asks them what they would do if they were in management.

There is no certainty when it comes to MLSE, other than corporate politics will always rule the day. Whatever happens will be whatever helps save Anselmi's ass.

Hell, this whole "President" tangent only started because fans and some media (De Vos comes to mind) have been beating this drum for awhile.

PAOK17
11-05-2012, 01:44 PM
Even if we bring in a president tomorrow, there is no guarantee that Mariner will be shipped out immediately. Unless the president has already been following TFC for some time now, there is no way anyone outside this organization truly knows how bad the situation is. For him to fire Cochrane and Mariner, he will have to actually witness their incompetence in action (which wouldn't take that long to see). Collangelo could have and many say should have, fired Sam Mitchell back in 2006 when he started. He didn't. Then Mitchell wins coach of the year and the Raptors have a huge turnaround forcing the contract extension of Mitchell. He wasn't fired until late 2008.

Then again, I don't thin Mitchell was as incompetent at coaching in the NBA as Mariner is in MLS. But I just want to make a point that even when new upper management such as a president comes in, changes don't usually happen immediately. If Mariner was to be fired, it would have happened by now.

Belfast_Boy
11-05-2012, 02:43 PM
Even if we bring in a president tomorrow, there is no guarantee that Mariner will be shipped out immediately. Unless the president has already been following TFC for some time now, there is no way anyone outside this organization truly knows how bad the situation is. For him to fire Cochrane and Mariner, he will have to actually witness their incompetence in action (which wouldn't take that long to see). Collangelo could have and many say should have, fired Sam Mitchell back in 2006 when he started. He didn't. Then Mitchell wins coach of the year and the Raptors have a huge turnaround forcing the contract extension of Mitchell. He wasn't fired until late 2008.

Then again, I don't thin Mitchell was as incompetent at coaching in the NBA as Mariner is in MLS. But I just want to make a point that even when new upper management such as a president comes in, changes don't usually happen immediately. If Mariner was to be fired, it would have happened by now.

I know most people want Mariner gone and I'm on that list too.

BUT, I'll be the devils advoate now.
Would you want a President that would walk into the office and fire everyone right away? Wouldn't you want the individual to look at the organization and calmly and thoughtfully start to rebuild?
knee jerk reactions and uninformed decisions have got us in this mess. The main reason we want a president is to guide the team for the future, not just the next season. if we start down the right road and hire a proper president I'd like them to bring vision, respect and thoughtfulness to MLSE and TFC.

TFC07
11-05-2012, 03:00 PM
If Mariner and Co. aren't booted before start of next season, then I am just going to ditch TFC for good. I can't support a club that is brain dead. Maybe I should just follow a new team in MLS and go couple of their games and when they come to BMO field to play against TFC.

lobo
11-05-2012, 03:03 PM
I know most people want Mariner gone and I'm on that list too.

BUT, I'll be the devils advoate now.
Would you want a President that would walk into the office and fire everyone right away? Wouldn't you want the individual to look at the organization and calmly and thoughtfully start to rebuild?
knee jerk reactions and uninformed decisions have got us in this mess. The main reason we want a president is to guide the team for the future, not just the next season. if we start down the right road and hire a proper president I'd like them to bring vision, respect and thoughtfulness to MLSE and TFC.

I completely agree the last thing we want to see is a new soccer exec slashing and burning right away. So, Mariner is the coach for 2013 which offers no hope whatsoever, it is what it is. Given that, here's the timeline I'd like to see ...

Since next season is a lost cause, I will be just fine if Mariner gets the axe mid-season, as horrible as that always is. But it would allow our new football executive time to analyse and plan for the new direction, hire new people and have them in place before the 2013 summer transfer window. Get an early start on our 2014, our next meaningful season.

Fort York Redcoat
11-05-2012, 03:07 PM
If Mariner and Co. aren't booted before start of next season, then I am just going to ditch TFC for good. I can't support a club that is brain dead. Maybe I should just follow a new team in MLS and go couple of their games and when they come to BMO field to play against TFC.

Support Your Local.

Otherwise, see ya! :seeya:

TFC07
11-05-2012, 03:09 PM
I completely agree the last thing we want to see is a new soccer exec slashing and burning right away. So, Mariner is the coach for 2013 which offers no hope whatsoever, it is what it is. Given that, here's the timeline I'd like to see ...

Since next season is a lost cause, I will be just fine if Mariner gets the axe mid-season, as horrible as that always is. But it would allow our new football executive time to analyse and plan for the new direction, hire new people and have them in place before the 2013 summer transfer window. Get an early start on our 2014, our next meaningful season.
That's sounds all great if President was hired couple of days before the season start, but however, if president was hired couple of months before season opener, then president should have enough time to get rid of Mariner and Co and find their replacement that fits president vision. I highly doubt whoever president is doesn't know anything about TFC and it's problem. I am sure he/she has already know what's wrong with TFC and knows the solution of fixing TFC before being hired. I am sure ML$E will ask potential presidents when interviewing them their solution to fixing TFC.

TFC07
11-05-2012, 03:10 PM
Support Your Local.

Otherwise, see ya! :seeya:
Brampton FTW!

Fort York Redcoat
11-05-2012, 03:14 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d3/BramptonCityUnited.png


Completely justified. Another MLS team?

Fuck. That.

TFC07
11-05-2012, 03:20 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d3/BramptonCityUnited.png


Completely justified. Another MLS team?

Fuck. That.

Most likely, I will be rooting for Vancouver (I got a lot of family and friends in BC and I enjoy being in Vancouver whenever I am there) if TFC doesn't get it shit together. Also, don't be surprised to see a lot of Italians in this city rooting for Impact over TFC (I already know some of them).

starter
11-05-2012, 03:21 PM
If a Prezident will have to wait till mid next season to made coaching changes, MLSE would have issues selling STs again. I am sure they will want to avoid that, so business wise it is better to clean the house now.
From TFC fan point of view, it is killing me not to be excited about upcoming season because Earl/Paul are still here. :(

PAOK17
11-05-2012, 03:23 PM
I know most people want Mariner gone and I'm on that list too.

BUT, I'll be the devils advoate now.
Would you want a President that would walk into the office and fire everyone right away? Wouldn't you want the individual to look at the organization and calmly and thoughtfully start to rebuild?
knee jerk reactions and uninformed decisions have got us in this mess. The main reason we want a president is to guide the team for the future, not just the next season. if we start down the right road and hire a proper president I'd like them to bring vision, respect and thoughtfulness to MLSE and TFC.
That's what I meant. A new president won't clean house right away. For him to do that he would have to already have a team already in mind to hire and must have been following our situation for some time to know what to do. Who actually does that much research for a job they don't even have?

Mariner could only be fired by Anselmi right now and should have been by now. A president won't do it.

But when he does get fired, because let's face it, he will, a nice two stick or banner could be "We told you so!"

brad
11-05-2012, 03:23 PM
I support the idea of hiring a president, but even if this happens - does anyone really have faith it will make the difference? This organization has been unable to hire a competent manager in 6 years, I have little to no faith that they will all of a sudden get it right in the president role. I'm also not sure that even with the president role they would clear the slate of corporate politics that would be needed to proceed. They'll probably promote an Anselmi yes man into a VP role to watch the presidents back...

Anyway, if we get one, I bet it's Earl.

Canary10
11-05-2012, 03:26 PM
I think it would be irresponsible of a new President to come in and slash and burn. They need a minimum of 6 months to observe and get a real feel for a place before making moves. I'm fine with that. I'll live with Mariner for the time being if they get the right President. The President position is more important to this club.

Canary10
11-05-2012, 03:29 PM
I support the idea of hiring a president, but even if this happens - does anyone really have faith it will make the difference? This organization has been unable to hire a competent manager in 6 years, I have little to no faith that they will all of a sudden get it right in the president role. I'm also not sure that even with the president role they would clear the slate of corporate politics that would be needed to proceed. They'll probably promote an Anselmi yes man into a VP role to watch the presidents back...

Anyway, if we get one, I bet it's Earl.

If it's Earl it's a failure and I won't renew my tix, simple as that. They need someone from outside who can take an unbiased look at everything and bring new ideas to the table.

Initial B
11-05-2012, 03:31 PM
Anyway, if we get one, I bet it's Earl.
If it's Earl as President, I give up.
Peter Wilt or James Easton, please.

narduch
11-05-2012, 03:38 PM
Anyway, if we get one, I bet it's Earl.

Or Paul Beirne!

That's the MLSE way.

jabbronies
11-05-2012, 03:41 PM
If Mariner and Co. aren't booted before start of next season, then I am just going to ditch TFC for good. I can't support a club that is brain dead. Maybe I should just follow a new team in MLS and go couple of their games and when they come to BMO field to play against TFC.

Says the guy with the Canadian National team as his avatar :)

Belfast_Boy
11-05-2012, 03:41 PM
I completely agree the last thing we want to see is a new soccer exec slashing and burning right away. So, Mariner is the coach for 2013 which offers no hope whatsoever, it is what it is. Given that, here's the timeline I'd like to see ...

Since next season is a lost cause, I will be just fine if Mariner gets the axe mid-season, as horrible as that always is. But it would allow our new football executive time to analyse and plan for the new direction, hire new people and have them in place before the 2013 summer transfer window. Get an early start on our 2014, our next meaningful season.


insert Chelski comparisons here.

starter
11-05-2012, 03:45 PM
I think it would be irresponsible of a new President to come in and slash and burn. They need a minimum of 6 months to observe and get a real feel for a place before making moves. I'm fine with that. I'll live with Mariner for the time being if they get the right President. The President position is more important to this club.
There is nothing wrong with a prez who has an agenda, wants his style, and has a coach on his mind. I actually envious of Impacts' Saputo for having a vision. He knows what kind of show his team needs to stage. He is not afraid to part with hot MLS commodity, to get what he wants.
Our only hope is to get a respected prez with strong vision and ready to act, and not just sit around and observe.

TFC07
11-05-2012, 03:45 PM
Says the guy with the Canadian National team as his avatar :)

I will take current CSA management over TFC FO/ML$E. At least they're serious about soccer now and doing things right for now. So there's hope unlike TFC where there's no sign of hope.

Canary10
11-05-2012, 03:48 PM
There is nothing wrong with a prez who has an agenda, wants his style, and has a coach on his mind. I actually envious of Impacts' Saputo for having a vision. He knows what kind of show his team needs to stage. He is not afraid to part with hot MLS commodity, to get what he wants.
Our only hope is to get a respected prez with strong vision and ready to act, and not just sit around and observe.

I've seen new leadership come in in a range of organizations. It's rarely a good idea to just walk in and start firing. Having a strong vision is a must, I agree. But change management is important too.

Belfast_Boy
11-05-2012, 03:53 PM
That's what I meant. A new president won't clean house right away. For him to do that he would have to already have a team already in mind to hire and must have been following our situation for some time to know what to do. Who actually does that much research for a job they don't even have?

Mariner could only be fired by Anselmi right now and should have been by now. A president won't do it.

But when he does get fired, because let's face it, he will, a nice two stick or banner could be "We told you so!"

I can't wait to see the back of Mariner. what an ass.
I feel sorry for whoever comes to this shitshow. the most important thing is that they are given the autonomy to do the job properly.

edit: and when I say "I can't wait to see the back of Mariner. what an ass." I don't mean he has a nice ass. i'm sure someone, somewhere might think he does, I do not. this is a nice ass!
http://ronaldrenwick.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/girl-in-yoga-pants1.png

starter
11-05-2012, 03:57 PM
I've seen new leadership come in in a range of organizations. It's rarely a good idea to just walk in and start firing. Having a strong vision is a must, I agree. But change management is important too.
If the new guy wants to install his regime, he should ask Anselmi to do the cleaning ahead of time.

Canary10
11-05-2012, 04:06 PM
If the new guy wants to install his regime, he should ask Anselmi to do the cleaning ahead of time.

Ha, yeah. That is another way to do it. I wouldn't mind that one bit.

ryan
11-05-2012, 04:10 PM
I think it would be irresponsible of a new President to come in and slash and burn. They need a minimum of 6 months to observe and get a real feel for a place before making moves. I'm fine with that. I'll live with Mariner for the time being if they get the right President. The President position is more important to this club.

But so, so sooooooooooo satisfying. Good lord I'm literally drooling at the thought of these bums being gone.

Canary10
11-05-2012, 04:13 PM
But so, so sooooooooooo satisfying. Good lord I'm literally drooling at the thought of these bums being gone.

Well, as Starter said, that person could make that it a condition of taking the job. Something like, "I need to bring in my own people."

But we're probably getting ahead of ourselves....

ryan
11-05-2012, 04:16 PM
Well, as Starter said, that person could make that it a condition of taking the job. Something like, "I need to bring in my own people."

But we're probably getting ahead of ourselves....

The likelihood of something quality changing with the TFC structure is the same likelihood that whoever wins tomorrow's American election will actually make a difference.

narduch
11-05-2012, 04:18 PM
The likelihood of something quality changing with the TFC structure is the same likelihood that whoever wins tomorrow's American election will actually make a difference.

Ya, its more likely the new President would be handcuffed by having to retain the existing front office staff.

Canary10
11-05-2012, 04:26 PM
The likelihood of something quality changing with the TFC structure is the same likelihood that whoever wins tomorrow's American election will actually make a difference.

That's possible, but doing everything the same isn't a recipe for success either. Neither is bringing in a new coach with the current front office staff. New leadership can and often does make a big difference.

Pookie
11-05-2012, 10:45 PM
I think it would be irresponsible of a new President to come in and slash and burn. They need a minimum of 6 months to observe and get a real feel for a place before making moves. I'm fine with that. I'll live with Mariner for the time being if they get the right President. The President position is more important to this club.

Just to play devil's advocate, what if the president is Erik Soler and given the trust he has with Hans Backe, opts to make an immediate move. Backe then wants his own guys supporting him and the wholen house is cleaned before January.

Is that a bad thing?

jloome
11-06-2012, 12:15 AM
Just to play devil's advocate, what if the president is Erik Soler and given the trust he has with Hans Backe, opts to make an immediate move. Backe then wants his own guys supporting him and the wholen house is cleaned before January.

Is that a bad thing?

No. Soler and Backe have their issues, but they've beaten the hell out of what we've done so far and we've also spent on multiple DPs. True, New York attracts Thierry Henry because it's NY, and he did trade DeRo; but we haven't had anything close to that level of professionalism organizationally.

Yohan
11-06-2012, 12:57 AM
No. Soler and Backe have their issues, but they've beaten the hell out of what we've done so far and we've also spent on multiple DPs. True, New York attracts Thierry Henry because it's NY, and he did trade DeRo; but we haven't had anything close to that level of professionalism organizationally.

I think Soler and Backe had to deal with a lot of interference from Red Bull HQ, but I still think Soler and Backe stumbled onto miserly success they've had. I mean, you must be even worse manager than Mariner to screw up with Thierry Henry on your team.

Oldtimer
11-06-2012, 08:49 AM
I completely agree the last thing we want to see is a new soccer exec slashing and burning right away. So, Mariner is the coach for 2013 which offers no hope whatsoever, it is what it is. Given that, here's the timeline I'd like to see ...

Since next season is a lost cause, I will be just fine if Mariner gets the axe mid-season, as horrible as that always is. But it would allow our new football executive time to analyse and plan for the new direction, hire new people and have them in place before the 2013 summer transfer window. Get an early start on our 2014, our next meaningful season.

Some thoughtful posts, including Belfast_Boy's and this one. I agree that it would make much more sense for the new President to take time to learn the situation and properly assess Mariner and Cochrane before acting. I have little doubt that the new President will come to the same conclusions as the supporters, just with more deliberate analysis and planning for the future. 2014 could be the start of something could in Anselmi hires the right President, and doesn't mess this up as badly as he has with Mo, Winter, and Mariner.


Just to play devil's advocate, what if the president is Erik Soler and given the trust he has with Hans Backe, opts to make an immediate move. Backe then wants his own guys supporting him and the wholen house is cleaned before January.

Is that a bad thing?

Not at all, I just want it well thought out and not a kneejerk reaction.

Canary10
11-06-2012, 09:10 AM
Just to play devil's advocate, what if the president is Erik Soler and given the trust he has with Hans Backe, opts to make an immediate move. Backe then wants his own guys supporting him and the wholen house is cleaned before January.

Is that a bad thing?

I've worked in a few places where new leadership has come in, with a vision and very strong agenda always (that's what leaders have). In most cases, they may have known within a month what needs to be done, and who needs to go, but they waited because there is a staff underneath that has loyalties, concerns about their own job, etc. If you don't look like you've treated people fairly, you're going to end up with trouble down the line.

That said, running a sports team is a bit different than most other organizations. Maybe the same rules don't apply.