In advance of Denime's news thread, has anyone seen the Star front page today?

[Rene Kingsriver]

It's on the front page of the print edition but not online, here's a link http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/article/1278643--toronto-fc-s-hands-tied-by-meddling-mls-kelly

Don't know what to make of Kelly a couple of weeks ago he was scathing about MLSE now he's writing a semi apologist piece on them.

Mods please merge when Denime creates his thread

[CoachGT]

Interesting article. I can vouch for a few of the things in the article, including the view on scouting in the first part of the year. I hadn't heard the stuff about Danny K playing in the reserve game. And the league objection to DeRo's raise certainly tracks with things I had heard at the time. The Mellberg story rings true as well.

I've got to give Kelly credit for this one. He is not an MLSE apologist. But this calls into question exactly who might be partially at fault for TFCs troubles. At least two or three of the more serious parts.

[Auzzy]

Yes, very interesting article. Definitely some eye-openers in there. However, I also see it as "Life according to Cathal Kelly and unnamed sources at TFC." One thing I really wonder about: why is this article coming out now? Why not in July or August? Smacks a bit of a desperate attempt by some folks at TFC to save their jobs, to help season ticket renewals, and to deflect from six years of non-stop failure at TFC. Blame only being given to Aron Winter and MLS, very interesting. We've seen enough curious things said & done by others at TFC to know there's more to that story. But Cathal loves the boulevard press style. A story with drama and some shadowy villains will be much more appealing to him, than an in-depth piece that tries to look at all sides of a story.

Basically, just because the league (& Aron Winter) were wrong, doesn't mean that those now at TFC were right.

I can believe that Winter was too fussy about the wrong things, and made some very curious decisions about player management. We never got the "best FO in the league" as promised. (We got an unemployed former youth coach from the Netherlands; and a bizarre -- and as yet unclarified -- division of duties with Mariner who obviously had a completely different outlook from Winter.) However, we also know that some TFC players have complained about doing passing drills (even though they obviously needed them), and that this club has had a history of unprofessional behaviour by players, of undermining the coach from above & below, of cliques/factions among players, etc. Makes sense that Winter wanted more professionalism. It seems he may have overdone it.

So Winter "was repeatedly given scouting reports on overseas upgrades. Though the team desperately required reinforcement, no decision was ever made. Winter hadn't bothered watching the tapes." I see, very interesting. Did we still have any international spots open at the time? It seems what has been missing most in the big picture, is decent middle-salary North-American MLS stalwarts, not really more overseas upgrades. Anyway, Winter definitely did agree to some suggested "upgrades," like Miguel Aceval, Geovanny Caicedo, Andy Iro, and Dasan Robinson -- to name just a few defensive signings. Maybe that's why he stopped listening?

There's lots more, once I get to it. ;)

[PopePouri]

Reminds me of the interview with Geoff Cameron had a similar type of issue when going to Stoke i.e. He had to deal with the MLS machine.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/365?cc=5901


Q: Geoff, what have the last two months been like for you?

A: Very hectic and stressful. Everything you can imagine. Dealing with the MLS wasn’t the best thing. Being in limbo for a couple of months was very, very stressful, because I didn’t know if I would be here or [in the U.S.]. Getting the deal done and coming here and training -- and then having some more red tape that I had to deal with concerning the visa -- it’s been hard to focus. I’m here to play football and that’s all I want to do. That was my focus.


Q: How worried were you, at any stage, that the deal wouldn’t be completed?

A: I was really worried because it’s one of those things like, you waited your whole life to do this, and your dreams are right there, and it can come down to people saying, "No, we’re not allowing you to get your work permit."

I think it was more stressful dealing with MLS because they had the ability to say "OK, well, we’re not going to sell you." They were controlling my aspirations and dreams of playing here, and that’s always tough because you leave your fate in someone else’s hands. Now I’m more in control of my destiny and contract. The player rights here are amazing.


Q: How much did you know about Stoke City beforehand?

A: I knew a little bit. I saw them a few times, including when Peter [Crouch] scored that amazing goal against Manchester City [in March]. It’s a team that has a system and the fact it finished [two points off] the top 10 ... obviously that’s an accomplishment. Stoke is a team that’s established. At the same time, there was another team interested in getting me, but you had to deal with MLS.





Q: Which Americans did you talk to or consult with before you moved to England?

A: One-hundred percent with Clint [Dempsey] and Tim [Howard] and just all the guys who’ve played in Europe. They said to just be patient with the whole transfer situation and obviously with MLS because they’ve dealt with it before and know how it’s run. But they all said, "Once you get over here, you’ll be fine. Just get your feet wet and keep your head down and stay focused on working hard."

That’s what all those guys have done, and look at them, they’re pretty well-known players in the EPL.

[Auzzy]

So we've gone from a coach who supposedly didn't watch scouting videos, but spent too much time with the players watching game videos. To a coach who doesn't watch any of the game tapes & highlights being prepared by TFC's video analyst. Who scouts by watching the Euro Cup.

So we hear that TFC players started the game like zombies because Winter made them watch too much video pre-game. Then why did they start the games like zombies under Mariner? I'm thinking especially of a bunch of games when the team started tanking again under Mariner (after the short up-tick), where we repeatedly saw TFC starting games very poorly & with little effort or focus.

I can't remember Eckersley ever being "marginalized" under Winter. Unless you consider playing your natural position, RB, to be marginalized. I think he was injured briefly at some point? This season, Ecks started 31 games and played 32 games, total 2712 minutes. That's more than "Iron Man" Ryan Johnson (who missed a bit due to international duty). TFC has only played 33 games -- I just don't see the marginalized part, and makes we wonder how much other BS is in this article.

But wait, there's more.... ;)

EDIT: Just checked, Ecks' games & minutes played this season is much higher than any other player on TFC; RJ is closest but still less. I call bullshit.

[Alixir]

How is it that the league can ask every other team wether they should allow a player to join another team. Obviously any team that sees that player as a threat to their chances will try and veto the signing.

[Batman]

Man.. I just don't know what to believe any more.

I'd love to see someone like John Molinaro dig into this a bit.

But, man, this team, front office, and even league is such a fuck up it's hard to know WTF is going on.

One thing I feel pretty sure of..a coach that can't get a single win out of a team over a span of more than half a season, shouldn't be invited back.

But, in true TFC fashion.. he probably will be. :facepalm:

[narduch]

Considering what happened to Frings and Koevermans, I'm almost thankful that the league blocked the Melleberg deal (if its even true).

Besides, I think the real reason it was blocked is that TFC was essentially trying to circumvent the spirit of the cap. TFC would have been paying 5 DPs (Frings, Koevermans, Hassli, De Guzman and Melleberg).

I also highly doubt that other MLS teams blocked the deal because they though it would make TFC too good. It would only have made us slightly less shittier.

I agree with Whoop, just more excuse making. TFC is simply poorly run.

[[NBF]]

This is such a bullshit article. I wanna point to this as a giveaway:



He was repeatedly given scouting reports on overseas upgrades. Though the team desperately required reinforcement, no decision was ever made. Winter hadn’t bothered watching the tapes.


He was too busy worrying about lengthy, pre-game video marathons that left players “looking like zombies” as they headed onto the pitch, according to another source.


“Analysis paralysis” is how an observer summed up Winter’s management style.


The losing streak to start the season got Winter headed in the direction of the plank. Ironically, it was their first league win that tipped him off it.


Danny Koevermans came on in the 63rd minute of that game against Philadelphia to score the game’s only goal. It was a cathartic moment of uplift.


As Koevermans came off the pitch, Winter told him he was playing in the reserve game that followed immediately
afterward, generally a proving ground for fringe players. Richard Eckersley, another marginalized regular who’d appeared as a sub, was also put in the reserve game. The move was perceived teamwide as a gross insult.




It really depends on who was making the scouting reports and whether Aron Winter was prepared for the opposition prior to the report and the report just being a useless piece of paper. Kinda like spending 4 days to write a report that will only be read in 15 minutes. (ie. TPS reports....from Office Space) The video pregame seems like a teaching tool to let the players know whats going on. IMO, if you are not someone who is well understood verbally because of change in language its a great tool to get your point accross.

Koevermans was out of shape and he played a total of 27 minutes that game.

Eckersley came in the 54th minute for Reggie Lambe. Jeremy Hall started the game at Right Back in a 4-3-3. Cann was paired with Henry at centre back. Eckersley played a total of 36 minutes that game.

There's no info on how much Eckersley and Koevermans played in the reserve game.



This was late May. Within days, the decision had been made to pull a management switch — Winter would take over the youth academy; the current director of player development, Paul Mariner, would become coach.

Winter initially agreed to the change. But the night before it was announced, he asked to be relieved of all duties.




I would have left also. If this is true, than its obvious that Cathal Kelly doesnt even read his own articles because this reads like, "If you dont like me well fuck you than, because you're more likely to fuck this up beyond fucking recognition. Bitch."

Cathal "One Source" Kelly



“That’s the way you treat kids in an academy, not grown men,” one source close to the team said.




“Things already weren’t great, but that was it for a lot of guys,” one source said.




“Absolutely untrue,” one source, who would know, said of Garber’s explanation. “Not 99 per cent untrue. It’s 100 per cent untrue.”




“If you come to me and ask, ‘Do you think Kansas City should get (Manchester United star) Wayne Rooney?’, what do you think I’m going to tell you?” an insider fumed.


Cathal "League Source" Kelly



"When the league talks with clubs about signing (designated players), about a significant amount of guaranteed money, they want to make sure the long-term health of the team and the league are taken into consideration,” said a league source, trying to summarize a philosophical position that might most charitably be called unusual.





One suspects two factors aside from the financial. As a Scandinavian, Mellberg appeals to none of the sizable ethnic minorities MLS covets as fans; and also the fact that he is a stoical defender rather than a zigzagging forward.


Whatever the reasons — and the league will not talk about them, on the record or off — MLS didn’t like the look of Mellberg.





As it applies specifically to Toronto, part of the friction may have something to do with the 2009 signing of de Guzman. According to a league source, Toronto FC was advised against making the move by MLS. Anxious to acquire a hometown boy, the team convinced the league to push that deal through.


In conclusion Cathal Kelly is a correspondent from the bubble and this reads like a story spun by Earl Cochrane and evidently also speaks to TFC's management in the sense that after 6 years in the league they are completely out of their realm when they're dealing with the players and the league. There's literally no oversight of the players movement and acquiring.

They're also leading themselves into a bigger whole by completely undermining and throwing an international known dutch coach in Aron Winter. There was talk of lack of support for Winter from day one and there's lack of support for Winter now that he's gone.

[Canary10]

;1539474']This is such a bullshit article. I wanna point to this as a giveaway:



It really depends on who was making the scouting reports and whether Aron Winter was prepared for the opposition prior to the report and the report just being a useless piece of paper. Kinda like spending 4 days to write a report that will only be read in 15 minutes. (ie. TPS reports....from Office Space) The video pregame seems like a teaching tool to let the players know whats going on. IMO, if you are not someone who is well understood verbally because of change in language its a great tool to get your point accross.

Koevermans was out of shape and he played a total of 27 minutes that game.

Eckersley came in the 54th minute for Reggie Lambe. Jeremy Hall started the game at Right Back in a 4-3-3. Cann was paired with Henry at centre back. Eckersley played a total of 36 minutes that game.

There's no info on how much Eckersley and Koevermans played in the reserve game.



I would have left also. If this is true, than its obvious that Cathal Kelly doesnt even read his own articles because this reads like, "If you dont like me well fuck you than, because you're more likely to fuck this up beyond fucking recognition. Bitch."

Cathal "One Source" Kelly

Cathal "League Source" Kelly







In conclusion Cathal Kelly is a correspondent from the bubble and this reads like a story spun by Earl Cochrane and evidently also speaks to TFC's management in the sense that after 6 years in the league they are completely out of their realm when they're dealing with the players and the league. There's literally no oversight of the players movement and acquiring.

They're also leading themselves into a bigger whole by completely undermining and throwing an international known dutch coach in Aron Winter. There was talk of lack of support for Winter from day one and there's lack of support for Winter now that he's gone.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. No doubt there were some issues with Winter (there are for every boss), but these examples, far from proving how bad he was, are all a matter of perspective. Like watching game tape to prove his incompetence - yeah I can see how some people might be bored with that. To me it shows he was prepared. It's all point of view stuff.

[ensco]

;1539474']This is such a bullshit article.

....


In conclusion Cathal Kelly is a correspondent from the bubble and this reads like a story spun by Earl Cochrane and evidently also speaks to TFC's management in the sense that after 6 years in the league they are completely out of their realm when they're dealing with the players and the league. There's literally no oversight of the players movement and acquiring.



+1000. We know the players didn't rate Winter but the rest of this is a self-serving joke. That story is rotting, smelly tripe. The Star's sports editor should be embarrassed.

Just two examples:

1) To allow some source at TFC (I assume Cochrane or Mariner) to say this, and only this, about the Dero situation: "we wanted to make him a DP but the league wouldn't let us" .... I mean come on, how stupid do we look?

2) MLS was completely and totally right to stop the Mellberg insanity. There are literally a dozen veteran defenders who came into MLS in the last 18 months who were in their late 20s or 30s, who have significant WC experience (I'll find the list, Friedrich and Bernandez are just two), and who don't cost $1.5 million per year.

The comparables to Mellberg don't cost half that. They don't cost one quarter of that.

TFC shouldn't be allowed to destroy the league cost structure through their ineptitude. I'm grateful to Garber and Abbott for stepping in.

The only interesting "fact" in that stupid story is that TFC's crack scouts "found" Mellberg by watching Euro games. That I believe.

It's not just that we're dead last on the merits. I am ashamed of my team. I really am.

[jloome]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. No doubt there were some issues with Winter (there are for every boss), but these examples, far from proving how bad he was, are all a matter of perspective. Like watching game tape to prove his incompetence - yeah I can see how some people might be bored with that. To me it shows he was prepared. It's all point of view stuff.

To me, this whole thing reads like Holger Osieck part II. A coach tries to instill some discipline (maybe too much) and the guys who want to move up in the world are now using those frictions to cover for their own ineptitude.

It's probably working. That's why they're still here; Anselmi and Beirne want to believe the narrative that makes them look least incompetent. Unfortunately, they're being sold a whopper. That they gave it to Cathal Kelly is no surprise; if they've read this load of convenient bullshit off to Molinario, he'd have asked questions.

It's also interesting that comments were turned off on the story. I wonder if Kelly requested that, after being asked for it by his sources.

[ag futbol]

There may be some aspects of this article that are true, but it reads very much like someone's narrative as opposed to the truth. The author's limited knowledge of the team's dealings and the league's rules makes it look like a snow-job. If someone is going to come out and say the MLS screwed us on the Melberg deal, then at least ask the questions like the one Narduch did above.

I wonder how MLS feels about being the fall-guys for TFCs ineptitude.

[yellowfellow]

I wonder who Cathal's one source is. Sounds like this one source is putting the blame on a former coach, instead of spending his energy on fixing the team. Another sign on how childish and incompetent the FO is.

[Couchy81]

the front office supported winter supposedly by offering him the academy position, the discipline and drills were suited to youth coaching. he left because he didnt want it, but why would they go out and support him now?

[Code Red]

This smells of corruption.

[sulfur]

TFC would have been paying 5 DPs (Frings, Koevermans, Hassli, De Guzman and Melleberg).
The Hassli deal came about after the Mellberg deal fell through. Would've been 4 DPs by your logic not 5.

[prizby]

lets not forget it was MLS and Don Garber that highly recommended TFC to hire Mo Johnston

[ensco]

The Hassli deal came about after the Mellberg deal fell through. Would've been 4 DPs by your logic not 5.

Meant to address the "5 DP" question. I don't see that at all. Hassli came after De Guzman was traded, same as Mellberg would have. It was always three DPs.

What Mariner resents is (i) being told that his offer to Mellberg was way off the market, and (ii) having his ineptitude made public, to his bosses and the world, as a result.

The lack of ideas in all this was always totally striking. We discussed it to death at the time. When TFC couldn't overpay for one DP (Mellberg), they went and traded an incredibly valuable asset for another (Hassli).

If the league office treats Mariner (or TFC) with disrespect, he/they have earned it.

Now, to get all this spun this way back in our faces ..... don't kid yourself, the audience for this dung was Anselmi and the Board, not the fans. The suits don't understand the details like we do, Mariner or Cochrane probably think this razzle-dazzle could work. After all, if it's on the front page, it must be true.

This "story" has moved me that much further from renewing, I can tell you that.

[MartinUtd]

I've got to admit, I only made it half way but what a load of crap!! Even if there are some truths written in there, there is a complete absence of accountability issued to the those that have been in charge for the past 5 months. Also, do a search for the word "Hassli" and you won't come up with anything.. not one mention. That's a pretty big elephant in Paul Mariners room to ignore. How can you bitch about MLS roster restrictions when you don't even mention extra DP we acquired out of desperation?

[Wull]

galaxy have 5 DPs, he hasn't said anything about that

[Redcoe15]

I'd believe in someone like John Molinaro before I trust a Eurosnob hack with an axe to grind in Cathal Kelly.

[madzap]

I'd believe in someone like John Molinaro before I trust a Eurosnob hack with an axe to grind in Cathal Kelly.

I wouldn't even trust Molinaro any more. He was digging around about Mariner and the threats to the fans and decided to bury that when Mariner's father passed away, even tweeted that PM messaged him when PM's father passed. He's an ML$E insider through and through.

Kelly is such a joke, he knows nothing about any of the sports he "reports" on...

[Richard]

I dont fault Winter for not taking another job tfc offered. There is no point for him to be the head of the TFCA when you can be a youth coach at Ajax, he has a lot of good rep and would rather work his way up for Ajax than TFC.


As for the article, 6 years is all that needs to be said, making excuses 6 years in exemplifies how the people in charge have no idea what there doing. After 6 years any excuse is bullshit no matter the case, in that timespan the team should have learned to limit risk exposure and issues.

Lets look at the Adrian Heat scenario, another handshake deal? Really? 6 years and still trying to pull that bullshit.

[levyashin]

After a season long hiatus(tempory insanity from watching the worst team in the world) from commenting on any blog ,i feel that the time is right to re-discover my inner self.As a season ticket holder from day one i have always HOPED for championship quality,unfortunately we have been served up chicken feed.This is no different than many FOOTBALL clubs world wide,just read their web pages.Unfortunately there is only so much talent at the top(managers and coaches),the rest has to make do with tier 2.When you look at T.F.C. from a sliding scale of 1-100;where are we----90th maybe.-------Next year it will take at least 50pts to make the play-offs.This league is getting better each year;ARE WE.--------Everyone has the answer just not the right one.The club needs THE RIGHT COACH WITH THE RIGHT PLAYERS AT THE RIGHT TIME until then WE LIVE IN HOPE!---------I AM A LIFE LONG SUPPORTER

[Parkdale]

when it comes to listing the odds stacked against our Team...
I'd rank MLS meddling somewhere above the breeze from lake Ontario but below the Feng Shui the team's dressing room.

Now here's a bigger question - If the league is messing with TFC - WHY are they doing it?
If league parity is important to the MLS, then why wouldn't they try to elevate the worst team, instead of keep them down?

[Parkdale]

I wouldn't even trust Molinaro any more. He was digging around about Mariner and the threats to the fans and decided to bury that when Mariner's father passed away, even tweeted that PM messaged him when PM's father passed. He's an ML$E insider through and through.


i disagree.

you're not going to do a good job as a reporter* if you get blacklisted from the subject you are reporting on - and going after Mariner right after his father passed is the kind of thing that would get you a permanent cold shoulder. There are battles to fight, and that probably wasn't one of them. Keep in mind, this isn't war journalism and government corruption - it's sports! If the teams shut out a reporter, then that reporter is useless. They need each other.


*sports reporting - keep that in mind.

[AlanO]

Now here's a bigger question - If the league is messing with TFC - WHY are they doing it?
If league parity is important to the MLS, then why wouldn't they try to elevate the worst team, instead of keep them down?
If MLS is meddling with TFC, who could blame them? The front office has taken a team with the best atmosphere & fan support in the league, and run it into the ground. The league must be pissed off.

It's a minor point in Kelly's article, but his description of the DeRo saga doesn't make any sense. He says DeRo wanted a DP contract, TFC tried to make it happen, the league wouldn't allow it, and then DeRo demanded a trade? Something doesn't add up. If the beef is with the league, why would he demand a trade which keeps him in MLS?

[Auzzy]

Although I was pissed about Mariner's behaviour (and not for the first time), I gotta agree that you couldn't get anything out of that story the week his Dad died. However, I believe there is a story there that isn't being followed. Even before the news of Mariner's father passing away, it wasn't really being tracked down (except by one journalist, after a number of people contacted him). And I think there has been an issue with Mariner's behaviour for a while, based on comments from a number of long-standing season ticket holders in that area. Unfortunately for all these journalists, TFC is small potatoes, and they have many other things to report on.

RE the Kelly article -- I'm not happy with the league either. If there are rules, they should be transparent & they should explain decisions. It's all so hush-hush. Plenty of funny numbers when you look at some of the player's salaries, and other strange things. But I have to agree with Parkdale, all that is hardly among the top ten concerns in TFC's realm of ineptitude.

After 6 years of this, if the league office doesn't trust the TFC brain trust with tying their own shoes, it's hard to fault them. Plus we all know there's way more to the Dero story. To only be upset with the league there, and not mention the faults of Dero and his representatives, nor of TFC (e.g., handshake deal on signing, promising to break Dero's deal early and bump up his salary), that's crazy stuff.

[nonc]

A compelling mix of excuse, truth, and probably some fabrication. But not enough criticism of Mariner. Anyway, all the more reason to breakaway from MLS ASAP. hopefully by 2020.

[ensco]

I have written a letter to the Star's sports editor about this "story". It said the following:

You have allowed a number of statements by unattributed sources to stand unchallenged in this story. Furthermore, your reporter showed a comical lack of understanding of the facts and/or context of virtually every event discussed. I can only guess that your reason for not allowing comments to be posted in the story is that you know this (or at least suspect all this to be true).

As the owners of TFC also own the Leafs and the Raptors, the matter of why this team is in such disarray is not strictly a soccer story. You owe your readers an explanation as to how something this shoddy could be published.

[Masked Man]

They can spin it anyway they want to but TFC were paying De Guzman to play for Dallas even though they said werent. Is it shady that the league can decide to block player moves at will based on how it feels? or that the league asks the other teams their opinions on player moves that have nothing to do with them? Yes it is. Could you blame them for having a lack of faith in the front office of TFC? Not at all.

Do I buy the idea of this article, that the evil league is the reason TFC couldnt put together a team that didnt finish in last place? Not for a second. Whether or not the league blocked the Mellberg deal, that is not the reason for what happened this season & what has happened to Toronto FC since it has existed. Its a sad attempt to put the blame for its problems on the league, by an organization that does nothing but deflect instead of addressing its own fucking problems.

[denime]

Meeeh,just another BS article for Cally,probably written by Cohrane and Co too.

TFC last win was 111 DAYS AGO,why he does not write an article about that?

Is that MLS fault too,or that idiot on the sideline who put Cann to play forward today,while substituting Henry for Johnson.:facepalm:



BTW you can "Report an error" on the bottom of the article,I just did with a commnet.

[DangerRed]

This story REEKS of a plant. All the sources are in our FO, who just suffered the worst season in history. Of course they want to blame someone else. To admit YOU fucked something up would require action to make it right, especially if you've been allowed to keep your job despite your failures. And they really want you guys to renew. Really badly.

[scooterTFC]

The article stinks of some self-serving spin from Cochrane/Beirne. However I really don't blame the league for blocking an another attempted DP signing by this team. The club's FO is mess, at the time of the Mellberg deal we'd just recently fired another manager. It seems like the DP contracts last longer than than the mangers who ink them with his club.

[jazzy]

I wouldn't even trust Molinaro any more. He was digging around about Mariner and the threats to the fans and decided to bury that when Mariner's father passed away, even tweeted that PM messaged him when PM's father passed. He's an ML$E insider through and through.

Kelly is such a joke, he knows nothing about any of the sports he "reports" on...

I'm not a fan right now of Mariner BUT,...in EVERY situation if one is half human when someone loses someone special , one always gives said person breathing room or shall I say grieving room........there's the person and then theres the person in his JOB...differentiate please,.......it's simply classy

[nfitz]

I have written a letter to the Star's sports editor about this "story". Why do that? The report didn't appear in the Sport section. It was a front page story in the new section.

Good luck, I've written to the sports editor a couple of time now complaining about their complete lack of coverage of National team games in the Saturday paper, after this big games that end quite early on Friday evenings, and never received a response.

Though I'm not sure if there's much to complain about here. A journalist is finally pushing on some of these issues, rather than just taking everything at face value. Kelly might have his faults, but he won't worry about being blackballed by the team. The article was neither positive about Mariner or TFC ... not seeing why people are getting their back up here about the article, when they should be getting their back up at Don Garber for lying, and the league for screwing us on DeRo.

Anyone attacking this article simply as being TFC propaganda is blinded by their own biases. This is an important piece, and puts in print for the first time many of the stuff that we already knew.

[Shakes McQueen]

Since when is Cathal Kelly a TFC astroturfer?

I have some issues with the article's credibility (for starters, I fucking hate when articles rest on quotes attributed to anonymous sources), but then I think a lot of the narrative surrounding this team suffers from the same credibility gap (because sports writers generally play by lazier rules regarding quotes). And no matter what the reason is, if the league denied the Mellberg signing (again, if it's true), we should be pissed no matter what incompetent asshole was driving our bus.

It needs to be pointed out that, even if the article is 100% true, it doesn't fundamentally alter what cosmic fuckups Cochrane and Mariner are - but it certainly casts very new light on at least a couple important moments over the past year. I'm interesting in knowing the truth, and not just reinforcing the narrative I've already got bouncing around in my head.

- Scott

[ag futbol]

Though I'm not sure if there's much to complain about here. A journalist is finally pushing on some of these issues, rather than just taking everything at face value. Kelly might have his faults, but he won't take the risk of being blackballed by the team. The article was neither positive about Mariner or TFC ... not seeing why people are getting their back up here about the article, when they should be getting their back up at Don Garber for lying, and the league for screwing us on DeRo.

You can't be serious. He basically took everything his source said at face value without doing any fact-checking (or if he did, I see no proof of it).

[Shakes McQueen]

You can't be serious. He basically took everything his source said at face value without doing any fact-checking (or if he did, I see no proof of it).

The real issue is that he granted the source anonymity, but says they are in a position to know, then expects the readers to just take THAT assertion at face value. Especially when a source "in a position to know" may also be a source with a vested interest in spinning the story a certain way.

- Scott

[Pookie]

I offered up an opinion to this (http://www.wakingthered.com/2012/10/28/3568802/the-blame-game) based on the fact that I had my own "source" on the Mellberg deal. Even if you discount the "source" angle, the fact remains that the league has signed 53 Designated Players and just 1 is a Defender. The league does not appear to value DP contracts for this position.

In the end, it really doesn't suggest that the league is out to get Toronto. This situation is true for every team in the league (except NY).

[nfitz]

You can't be serious. He basically took everything his source said at face value without doing any fact-checking (or if he did, I see no proof of it).You can't be serious. You don't get published on the front page of the Toronto Star without them doing fact-checking and verifying there are multiple sources. This isn't a column or an opinion piece in the Sports section.

[ag futbol]

You can't be serious. You don't get published on the front page of the Toronto Star without them doing fact-checking and verifying there are multiple sources. This isn't a column or an opinion piece in the Sports section.
Show me the facts, or in the absence of facts at least a corroboration of what's publicly known to back up the assertion.

And did this actually run the front page, or was it simply on the splash page for their website? Because I can tell you that various things headline that at different points in the day. Also, depending on how advanced they are at reading their viewerships interests they could be skewing that towards things they think any specific visitor wants to read. Either way, what you're saying is nothing more than an appeal to the Toronto Star as an authority, it doesn't make them infaluable.

[Shakes McQueen]

Either way, what you're saying is nothing more than an appeal to the Toronto Star as an authority, it doesn't make them infaluable.

Well yeah, but in a reasonable world, media outlets are supposed to have earned editorial authority - they don't "show their work" on every article they write. They are supposed to earn the assumption that they've done their background.

But this all gets back to a larger issue, which is the erosion of that editorial authority - particularly when it comes to political coverage. BUT ANYWAY. :D

- Scott

[nfitz]

Show me the facts, or in the absence of facts at least a corroboration of what's publicly known to back up the assertion. The Mellberg stuff matches very closely what Michael Gardner reported in August - http://www.wakingthered.com/2012/8/27/3270118/source-mls-did-nix-the-mellberg-deal

The refusal of MLS to not give DeRo a DP was rumoured for years.


And did this actually run the front page, or was it simply on the splash page for their website?Right on Page A1. Bottom left corner, 2 columns - about 5 inches each with a picture of Eckersley and a red STAR EXCLUSIVE above the headline. The other stories on the front page were a new brain surgery tool. Romney, and the earthquake in BC. It was continued on page A9 where it takes 50 of the page, including photos of Mellberg, Winter, and Mariner (though most of it is just text).

It wasn't just a please see the sports section banner at the top of the page.

[Shakes McQueen]

You can't be serious. You don't get published on the front page of the Toronto Star without them doing fact-checking and verifying there are multiple sources. This isn't a column or an opinion piece in the Sports section.

While the article may very well be true (and I certainly allow for the possibility more than some folks here seem to), I think this assumption is flawed. What makes the "front page" of the Star website is based on what they think will get clicks, and not the amount of background work done.

It's always worth mentioning that at no point does Kelly say his anonymous claims were corroborated by other sources.

- Scott

[nfitz]

While the article may very well be true (and I certainly allow for the possibility more than some folks here seem to), I think this assumption is flawed. What makes the "front page" of the Star website is based on what they think will get clicks, and not the amount of background work done.I'm talking about the front page of the Toronto Star I found on my doorstep this morning, in a plastic bag to protect it from the rain.

The article was continued in the front section. This wasn't something buried on the website or in the Sports section.

[ag futbol]

The Mellberg stuff matches very closely what Michael Gardner reported in August - http://www.wakingthered.com/2012/8/27/3270118/source-mls-did-nix-the-mellberg-deal

The refusal of MLS to not give DeRo a DP was rumoured for years.

Hardly enough. Gardner could have the same source and as for Dero, how does that mesh with the fact he makes DP money in DC?

[Shakes McQueen]

I'm talking about the front page of the Toronto Star I found on my doorstep this morning, in a plastic bag to protect it from the rain.

The article was continued in the front section. This wasn't something buried on the website or in the Sports section.

Doesn't really alter my point - particularly considering the lazy "reporting" on political matters that routine sits above the fold in newspapers (ostensibly "serious jornalism" compared to sports).

- Scott

[nfitz]

... how does that mesh with the fact he makes DP money in DC?He's not a DP though. He's at $663K compensation - http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/October 1, 2012 Salary Information - Alphabetical.pdf - up from the $493K under his contact with Toronto ... but he's not a DP - he's not on the MLS DP list - http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/current-designated-players and DC would take the full cap hit. He's not earning the 7 digits that TFC reportedly wanted to pay him.

Now he probably is the highest paid non-DP in MLS ... but that might have been true when he was at Toronto. We could have paid him more - but that was not what he was promised, and it would have made it very difficult to meet the salary cap.

[Shakes McQueen]

It has always been my understanding that DeRo is not a DP in DC.

- Scott

[nfitz]

Doesn't really alter my point - particularly considering the lazy "reporting" on political matters that routine sits above the fold in newspapers (ostensibly "serious jornalism" compared to sports). Not sure what your referring to - this isn't the Toronto Sun we're talking about. The Star (unlike the Sun) is a member of the Ontario Press Council and has to meet certain standards. If this was the Sun I'd see your point, as they do have not requirement to actually publish anything that's true, as long as they don't libel or slander someone.

[Shakes McQueen]

Not sure what your referring to - this isn't the Toronto Sun we're talking about. The Star (unlike the Sun) is a member of the Ontario Press Council and has to meet certain standards. If this was the Sun I'd see your point, as they do have not requirement to actually publish anything that's true, as long as they don't libel or slander someone.

The OPC is a volountary body to investigate complaints, and Sun Media only withdrew their publications in late 2011 over "political correctness" concerns - yet they've been publishing certifiable nonsense long before then.

- Scott

[ag futbol]

He's not a DP though. He's at $663K compensation - http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/October 1, 2012 Salary Information - Alphabetical.pdf - up from the $493K under his contact with Toronto ... but he's not a DP - he's not on the MLS DP list - http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/current-designated-players and DC would take the full cap hit. He's not earning the 7 digits that TFC reportedly wanted to pay him.

Now he probably is the highest paid non-DP in MLS ... but that might have been true when he was at Toronto. We could have paid him more - but that was not what he was promised, and it would have made it very difficult to meet the salary cap.
But looking at it that way, he earns more money than several DPs in the league. Regardless of whether he has the tag or not, it amounts to an increase in compensation, which is what he was asking for.

BTW, since when was TFC interested in paying Dero seven figures? After the cheque signing fiasco TFC was publicly stating he should keep quiet and play for the value of his contract.

[Yohan]

He's not a DP though. He's at $663K compensation - http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/October 1, 2012 Salary Information - Alphabetical.pdf - up from the $493K under his contact with Toronto ... but he's not a DP - he's not on the MLS DP list - http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/current-designated-players and DC would take the full cap hit. He's not earning the 7 digits that TFC reportedly wanted to pay him.

Now he probably is the highest paid non-DP in MLS ... but that might have been true when he was at Toronto. We could have paid him more - but that was not what he was promised, and it would have made it very difficult to meet the salary cap.
DC pays down DeRo's salary with allocation money to under 350k so that he's not considered a DP

[T-boy]

There are 3 sides to every story. Those of you who are calling the article total BS, the writer himself, and the actual truth. It's fairly clear that the poor form of TFC is a mixture of failures from the club, various coaches, the FO, and the MLS combined. Overall its a failure to set up a new franchise MLS club correctly in year Dot. If you fail in the inception to get things right, then you are always battling against everything and catching up. Clubs like the Whitecaps and Montreal aren't going to have the same problems as TFC as they had a basis of a club pre-MLS. Seattle are the opposite of TFC and were set up well in the beginning. TFC might as well completely re-start right now! The only thing that was "right" about the club in the first place was the fans and the atmosphere we made. Our backup striker in the first season was Andrea Lombardo for Christ sake! He wouldn't do much in my Wednesday night rec league! If you are set up that badly, you have to work for years to get things right, and little things with the MLS, coach changes, player changes etc are all little excuses along the way.

[nfitz]

BTW, since when was TFC interested in paying Dero seven figures?They weren't. They were paying about half that. However, the deal that TFC took to MLS (which presumably inculded making DeRo a DP) would have given him 7 digits (and presumably saved TFC cap space or allocation money) - today's article says that. Presumably that's what they had promised him that he was upset about.

[narduch]

Hardly enough. Gardner could have the same source

And its more than likely this is the same source to all the Larson and Rollins scoops as well. A source with a vested interest in deflecting some of the blame for the shitshow that is TFC's FO.

I still say, the money we were offering Mellberg was pure madness.

[Yohan]

And its more than likely this is the same source to all the Larson and Rollins scoops as well. A source with a vested interest in deflecting some of the blame for the shitshow that is TFC's FO.

I still say, the money we were offering Mellberg was pure madness.
non dp money nesta and friedrich signed for is an exception, not the norm

[nfitz]

Like ensco said, I would argue 4/5 of the Star subscribers wouldn't even read the story or care about it, and that the people most interested in the story, aside from the fans, who probably could have written something similar even without the quotes from a team source, are the board members.If your correct, then only 20% of subscribers would have read it. So with over 300,000 Sunday subscribers over 60,000 people read it - perhaps more as most households have more than 1 person. That's not insignificant. Many would have read it who never read here or blogs. Heck, even my wife said to me, what's this (unprompted) ... and read it. I don't think I've ever seen her on a board, blog, or in a pre-game pub - she's only heard what I've muttered to her.


These are old stories repackaged in a new formatWell, the new format being published by a media outlet. Old stories mostly ... sure.

But there's a difference between us whispering about corrupt contractors, and the Montreal Gazette publishing the names of who took the money, and who they gave it to.

Let's see where the story goes. The Star isn't normally too quick to let go once it's got it's teeth into something.

[nonc]

This new DeRo story doesn't even make sense. If TFC were actually interested in giving him a raise as suggested, why didn't they just keep him and do it in the off season exactly like DC United did?

[Yohan]

This new DeRo story doesn't even make sense. If TFC were actually interested in giving him a raise as suggested, why didn't they just keep him and do it in the off season exactly like DC United did?
spent tons of allocation to reduce cap hit of DeRo's salary to non-DP level? according to Kelly, DeRo was asking for seven figure salary and TFC was willing... if TFC spent 700k plus allocation money to buy down DeRo's cap hit, it would be one of stupidest waste of DP money ever. not to mention no guarantee TFC would be even getting 700k allocation money every season.

I think what DC is doing is stupid, esp with less allocation money now that DC made the playoffs

[Alonso]

+1000. We know the players didn't rate Winter but the rest of this is a self-serving joke. That story is rotting, smelly tripe. The Star's sports editor should be embarrassed.

Just two examples:

1) To allow some source at TFC (I assume Cochrane or Mariner) to say this, and only this, about the Dero situation: "we wanted to make him a DP but the league wouldn't let us" .... I mean come on, how stupid do we look?

2) MLS was completely and totally right to stop the Mellberg insanity. There are literally a dozen veteran defenders who came into MLS in the last 18 months who were in their late 20s or 30s, who have significant WC experience (I'll find the list, Friedrich and Bernandez are just two), and who don't cost $1.5 million per year.

The comparables to Mellberg don't cost half that. They don't cost one quarter of that.

TFC shouldn't be allowed to destroy the league cost structure through their ineptitude. I'm grateful to Garber and Abbott for stepping in.

The only interesting "fact" in that stupid story is that TFC's crack scouts "found" Mellberg by watching Euro games. That I believe.

It's not just that we're dead last on the merits. I am ashamed of my team. I really am.


LOL!!

This is the creme de la creme!

Our scouting has now been confirmed to include watching CCL teams playing against us, and watching Euro League games....

Sweet.

(Note to RPB in charge of smiley faces. We need one that pulls out a magnum .357 and blows is brains out all over the wall)

This will do for now I guess... :facepalm:

[Alonso]

I wouldn't even trust Molinaro any more. He was digging around about Mariner and the threats to the fans and decided to bury that when Mariner's father passed away, even tweeted that PM messaged him when PM's father passed. He's an ML$E insider through and through.

Kelly is such a joke, he knows nothing about any of the sports he "reports" on...


That's way out of line.

Molinaro had the balls to call out the management of this team in this article: http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/10/18/tfc_toronto_fc_tom_anslemi_ticket_prices/

There is no way in hell is Molinaro a shill (Definition: A shill, plant, or stooge is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that he has a close relationship with that person) for TFC.

That's absurd. He is actually one of the few real reporters on this beat.

Did he scuttle a story here and there? Yeah maybe, but everyone has to pick their battles. He has to juggle a fine line between getting the story and losing his sources.

[Alonso]

There are 3 sides to every story. Those of you who are calling the article total BS, the writer himself, and the actual truth. It's fairly clear that the poor form of TFC is a mixture of failures from the club, various coaches, the FO, and the MLS combined. Overall its a failure to set up a new franchise MLS club correctly in year Dot. If you fail in the inception to get things right, then you are always battling against everything and catching up. Clubs like the Whitecaps and Montreal aren't going to have the same problems as TFC as they had a basis of a club pre-MLS. Seattle are the opposite of TFC and were set up well in the beginning. TFC might as well completely re-start right now! The only thing that was "right" about the club in the first place was the fans and the atmosphere we made. Our backup striker in the first season was Andrea Lombardo for Christ sake! He wouldn't do much in my Wednesday night rec league! If you are set up that badly, you have to work for years to get things right, and little things with the MLS, coach changes, player changes etc are all little excuses along the way.

You have to admit his goal against Aston Villa was pretty sweet though!

[Alonso]

Again... really? Trying to deflect criticism of your incompetence over the last 6 years by saying "Hey, it's not our fault the league is screwing us!"

These are old stories repackaged in a new format - with quotes from an anonymous source! - when supporters of the club have gone through them ad nauseam. DeRo, JDG, Mellberg, etc.

With the end of the season, with a disastrous winless streak - longest in team history, renewal period coming up the people at TFC want to let us know "Hey, come support us, it's not our fault we're incompetent."

As for the fact checking... when newspapers, media outlets, etc aren't fact checking big, important, stories like they have in the past given the current news cycle, I hardly think a story written by sports columnist, who usually have different standards than a reporter, is going through the rigorous testing of fact checking.

Like ensco said, I would argue 4/5 of the Star subscribers wouldn't even read the story or care about it, and that the people most interested in the story, aside from the fans, who probably could have written something similar even without the quotes from a team source, are the board members.


Wait. The RPB Board or the ML$E board.... cause I would die and go to heaven if the latter were the case. g:D

[narduch]

LOL!!

This is the creme de la creme!

Our scouting has now been confirmed to include watching CCL teams playing against us, and watching Euro League games....

Sweet.

(Note to RPB in charge of smiley faces. We need one that pulls out a magnum .357 and blows is brains out all over the wall)

This will do for now I guess... :facepalm:

You forgot Bermuda.

[ensco]

Wait. The RPB Board or the ML$E board.... cause I would die and go to heaven if the latter were the case. g:D

That Star piece was 100% for the MLSE Board. That was not a front page story, btw, I'm amazed by the placement. Maybe just a coincidence, or maybe somebody put that whole thing together and helped get it there.

My feeling: Anselmi and Mariner are in this together. Anselmi can't just cut Mariner loose, because he fears that this one really would be the straw the breaks the camel's back with the Board.

[narduch]

non dp money nesta and friedrich signed for is an exception, not the norm

What we were offering Mellberg would have been a true exception in this league.

Plus with his advanced age we are running the same risks we have with Frings and Koevermans.

We are the least creative team in the league when it comes to player selection. And then when it comes back to bite us in the ass, we run to the media to go blame MLS head office. And some fans eat it up like its gospel.

[Oldtimer]

That Star piece was 100% for the MLSE Board. That was not a front page story, btw, I'm amazed by the placement. Maybe just a coincidence, or maybe somebody put that whole thing together and helped get it there.



Remember how for years we would complain that TFC would be relegated to some small article in the back half of the sports section? The good side of this is TFC is now front page news! :D

[Canary10]

I still think it's funny people at TFC are saying Winter was a bad coach because he watched game film. And that he had his players proudly wear their team colours when they had a road game. Oh the horror! It was way worse than I thought!

[TFC_Allez]

I don't know how I feel about that article. Seems like the author is trying his hardest to make excuses for our poor showing on the pitch and for the shambles our FO is in. Seems also pretty sad that the only people left to "pass the buck" to, is the league itself. I like the comment left after the article and it's true:
"So you're saying...Basically that MLS is submarining TFC? Hogwash! MLSE controls TFC just like Saputo controls MTL. Funny how Nesta is playing there? Bottom line, MLSE is too blame for this whole mess. Anselmi has run this team into the ground. They choose Klinsmann, who choose Winter. Easy to pass the buck, but MLSE’s franchise record in all sports pretty much says who’s at fault! Nice try though! Oct 29, 2012 9:07 AM"

[narduch]

So now that the article is burried on their website, the Star decides to open up the comments. Cowards.

[ryan]

LOL!!

This is the creme de la creme!

Our scouting has now been confirmed to include watching CCL teams playing against us, and watching Euro League games....

Sweet.

(Note to RPB in charge of smiley faces. We need one that pulls out a magnum .357 and blows is brains out all over the wall)

This will do for now I guess... :facepalm:

here ya go http://www.virtualsportsnetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/suicide.gif

[Canary10]

The onslaught continues....Kelly in today's online Star. Forever the contrarian.

This is why (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/article/1278605--tfc-is-the-only-toronto-sports-team-set-to-break-its-losing-record)Toronto FC (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls) is the only team I hold out real hope for next year: because Toronto FC will be unrecognizable come spring. (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/article/1278605--tfc-is-the-only-toronto-sports-team-set-to-break-its-losing-record)
Having ground his teeth to dust watching the mopes he inherited at mid-season Keystone Kop their way through a year that best resembled Napoleon’s retreat from Russia, (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/article/1278605--tfc-is-the-only-toronto-sports-team-set-to-break-its-losing-record)Paul Mariner (http://www.thestar.com/image/1268607--paul-mariner) will destroy this team. He will reach into its guts and begin pulling wires randomly. (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/article/1278605--tfc-is-the-only-toronto-sports-team-set-to-break-its-losing-record)
A few factors in Mariner’s favour. (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/article/1278605--tfc-is-the-only-toronto-sports-team-set-to-break-its-losing-record)
He is the only law on that team. There is no hierarchy to tiptoe through — there is Mariner alone. (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/article/1278605--tfc-is-the-only-toronto-sports-team-set-to-break-its-losing-record)
He’s constructed a winner before, in New England. (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/article/1278605--tfc-is-the-only-toronto-sports-team-set-to-break-its-losing-record)
He was thwarted throughout the past year from picking up players he wanted and the club needed, first by his former boss Aron Winter (a certain Serbian U-21 international, Hacken striker Waris Majeed, etc.) and then by the league (Olof Mellberg). Assuming the league backs off (big assumption), he now has a free hand for the first time. (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/article/1278605--tfc-is-the-only-toronto-sports-team-set-to-break-its-losing-record)

[narduch]

Sounds like Kelly agrees with Anselmi's 'sports are cyclical' theory.

[MarkEightThree]

Do you think Mariner's ever scouted anyone by watching someone play FIFA and not realizing it's a video game?

[Canary10]

Sounds like Kelly agrees with Anselmi's 'sports are cyclical' theory.

He's only writing it because he knows it's not the opinion shared by the majority of TFC fans, and opinions contrary to the norm tend to get read much more than those that agree. He's looking for a response. Of course I helped out by linking to the story.

[narduch]

Do you think Mariner's ever scouted anyone by watching someone play FIFA and not realizing it's a video game?

I think his scouting is limited to MLS, NCAA, the lower leagues in England, Bermuda and watching the Euros (that explains the Mellberg interest).

TFC is the least creative team in MLS in terms of scouting.

[narduch]

He's only writing it because he knows it's not the opinion shared by the majority of TFC fans, and opinions contrary to the norm tend to get read much more than those that agree. He's looking for a response. Of course I helped out by linking to the story.

This does appear to be the case here.

[ryan]

He's only writing it because he knows it's not the opinion shared by the majority of TFC fans, and opinions contrary to the norm tend to get read much more than those that agree. He's looking for a response. Of course I helped out by linking to the story.

Canada's Skip Bayless?

[brad]

Remember how for years we would complain that TFC would be relegated to some small article in the back half of the sports section? The good side of this is TFC is now front page news! :D

But we need to really focus on key issues - did he call them "the FC"? :) Ahh, those were the days when our concerns where so trivial...

[brad]

I still think it's funny people at TFC are saying Winter was a bad coach because he watched game film. And that he had his players proudly wear their team colours when they had a road game. Oh the horror! It was way worse than I thought!

Those were my thoughts. He made them do things that good teams everywhere do. I can see it being a big culture shock in the MLS though where a lot of players are less than dedicated off the pitch and professionalism can be lacking. In this regard he tried to instill professionalism in the team, and it backfired.

Also, a new manager needs to tread carefully around such things (and I don't just mean in football, I mean anywhere). If you come in and make wholesale changes across large areas, you can lose the faith of your subordinates quickly. It's an art form to go into an organization and make such changes and ensure that you don't lose the team at the same time.

[brad]

I don't know how I feel about that article. Seems like the author is trying his hardest to make excuses for our poor showing on the pitch and for the shambles our FO is in. Seems also pretty sad that the only people left to "pass the buck" to, is the league itself. I like the comment left after the article and it's true:
"So you're saying...Basically that MLS is submarining TFC? Hogwash! MLSE controls TFC just like Saputo controls MTL. Funny how Nesta is playing there? Bottom line, MLSE is too blame for this whole mess. Anselmi has run this team into the ground. They choose Klinsmann, who choose Winter. Easy to pass the buck, but MLSE’s franchise record in all sports pretty much says who’s at fault! Nice try though! Oct 29, 2012 9:07 AM"

There is the angle I am looking at. If TFC could have signed Nesta for less than max cap hit, but proceeded in trying to sign Mellburg as a DP instead and it blew up on them, that's down to mismanagement at TFC. Of course, that all assumes that Joey didn't pad Nesta's bank account through back channels as some people suggest.

[ensco]

What a crock. This is the second time in a week Mariner has someone saying on his behalf that he will gut the team.

Which is pretty funny given TFC's cap/contract situation. But Cathal Kelly just parrots it without mentioning that TFC has $1.7 million in cap space, and around $4-5 million in real dollars, tied up in 5 players that, with the exception of Hassli, he can't trade or release.

No team in MLS will be less active than TFC.

[narduch]

What a crock. This is the second time in a week Mariner has someone saying on his behalf that he will gut the team.

Which is pretty funny given TFC's cap/contract situation. But Cathal Kelly just parrots it without mentioning that TFC has $1.7 million in cap space, and around $4-5 million in real dollars, tied up in 5 players that, with the exception of Hassli, he can't trade or release.

No team in MLS will be less active than TFC.

The 6 discovery signings handcuffs the team as well. Plus we don't have all our draft picks.

Due to the cap contraints, all the replacements most likely be Amerikwa and Weidemen quality.

My guess is guys like Cann, Harden, Williams, Avila will all be moved out for MLS scrubs. Stinson, Cordon, Makabuya will be replaced by newer Academy signings.

[TOBOR !]

Am I to understand that Winter had to leave because he mandated that the players carry themselves as professionals ?

Absolute fucking joke.

And of course, as soon as he's gone we're reading about three of the team getting arrested in Houston.

I guess that solves the "would this have happened under Winter ?" debate.

[TOBOR !]

The 6 discovery signings handcuffs the team as well. Plus we don't have all our draft picks.

Due to the cap contraints, all the replacements most likely be Amerikwa and Weidemen quality.

My guess is guys like Cann, Harden, Williams, Avila will all be moved out for MLS scrubs. Stinson, Cordon, Makabuya will be replaced by newer Academy signings.

Those three guys already are MLS scrubs.

[Ajax TFC]

This is just a sad attempt by the FO to get supporters to support their decision to stick with Mariner. the fact that events occurring over a range of time varying from over two months ago (Melburg), half a year and more ago (Winter), to two seasons ago (DeRo) are being written about during SSH renewals suggests this. The FO knew that Cathal kelly wouldn't be able to resist the chance to slag people off, so they spoon fed him a bunch of dirt on everyone else, that's supposed to reflect well on Mariner and their whole FO setup. The whole thing about Winter using video analysis also suggests that. The PR people probably all sat down together and brainstormed on "what Winter did that we can spin in a negative way" and came up with video analysis. Are we supposed to get all up in arms that we had a coach who used modern technology to learn about the opposition? And doesn't that sort of go against the commonly accepted fact that Winter never adjusted to the opposition?
"looking like zombies"? Surely more people than just Kelly's source saw the players before the game. Anyone here recall the players "looking like zombies" before the games?

And about the scouting reports: was it actually Winter's job to watch videos of every player that was being scouted?

[brad]

This is just a sad attempt by the FO to get supporters to support their decision to stick with Mariner. the fact that events occurring over a range of time varying from over two months ago (Melburg), half a year and more ago (Winter), to two seasons ago (DeRo) are being written about during SSH renewals suggests this. The FO knew that Cathal kelly wouldn't be able to resist the chance to slag people off, so they spoon fed him a bunch of dirt on everyone else, that's supposed to reflect well on Mariner and their whole FO setup. The whole thing about Winter using video analysis also suggests that. The PR people probably all sat down together and brainstormed on "what Winter did that we can spin in a negative way" and came up with video analysis. Are we supposed to get all up in arms that we had a coach who used modern technology to learn about the opposition? And doesn't that sort of go against the commonly accepted fact that Winter never adjusted to the opposition?
"looking like zombies"? Surely more people than just Kelly's source saw the players before the game. Anyone here recall the players "looking like zombies" before the games?

And about the scouting reports: was it actually Winter's job to watch videos of every player that was being scouted?

Maybe he didn't rate the scouting reports coming in. If they were from Mariner, does anyone really think that Mariner was going to find players that would play in the style that Winter was looking for? I sure don't.

[ag futbol]

Am I to understand that Winter had to leave because he mandated that the players carry themselves as professionals ?

Absolute fucking joke.

And of course, as soon as he's gone we're reading about three of the team getting arrested in Houston.

I guess that solves the "would this have happened under Winter ?" debate.
I think it's an interesting aspect of MLS culture that we've learned a lot about over the last year. A lot of guys in this league think they are hot shit, but carry themselves with a minimal amount of professionalism. Example one: Jacob Peterson and his comment about too many passing drills. Example two: BDK and his comment about how a lot of MLS guys think they could play in europe but haven't got the opportunity out of bad luck. Maybe the Winter vs. Mariner comparisons were supposed to instill us with confidence, but to me it just sounds like he dumbed the team down to a meddling level.

If any club is going to succeed doing what Winter was trying to do, they're going to need a lot of people pulling in the same direction. They need people who are going to buy into the system, not fight it.

[madzap]

From my RSS reader this morning:

"Coach Paul Mariner has the power and track record to turn Toronto FC soccer team into a real winner. It doesn’t have to be a loser like the city’s other pro-teams"

Then I saw it was Kelly. Does he seriously think anyone who even marginally follows TFC will drink his koolaid?

[jloome]

From my RSS reader this morning:

"Coach Paul Mariner has the power and track record to turn Toronto FC soccer team into a real winner. It doesn’t have to be a loser like the city’s other pro-teams"

Then I saw it was Kelly. Does he seriously think anyone who even marginally follows TFC will drink his koolaid?

Got an email, allegedly from Anselmi (he might have a flunky handling his mail, but I don't think so), after pointing out how manipulative and self-serving that "leak" was:

"I'm not going to get into a discussion about the accuracy or origin of the article. Suffice to say I'm not happy about it. We need to get the team Turned around. We need the right club leadership."

[ag futbol]

^ I don't know what's going on there, but this douche has had zero interest in following TFC / MLS and all of a sudden he jumps on the pro Paul Mariner train.

I think it's about time these guys in the media put their money where their mouth is and start stating predictions for next year. Here's mine:

1) lose V's cup
2) no more than three wins in the first ten game
3) no playoffs
4) club continues to cry about being cap-tied by contracts and uses that as an excuse for not finding the players we need next year, but ignores that through their dealings with Hassli / O'Dea / Eckersley ... it's a crisis of their own design.

[Ajax TFC]

^ I don't know what's going on there, but this douche has had zero interest in following TFC / MLS and all of a sudden he jumps on the pro Paul Mariner train.

If I had to guess I would say that either:
a) MLSE made a deal with him: Write this story about how TFC's situation isn't the fault of anyone currently employed here, and we'll give you access to the Leafs and Raptors
or b) They gave him a bunch of cynical stuff, and Cathal being Cathal, couldn't help but bite


I think it's about time these guys in the media put their money where their mouth is and start stating predictions for next year. Here's mine:
1) lose V's cup
2) no more than three wins in the first ten game
3) no playoffs
4) club continues to cry about being cap-tied by contracts and uses that as an excuse for not finding the players we need next year, but ignores that through their dealings with Hassli / O'Dea / Eckersley ... it's a crisis of their own design.
5) find a way to blame Winter for all of the above

[TOBOR !]

it's all spin out of TFC FO right now.

We can't fix this, but we can sure as hell try to disguise it as something else.

[Canary10]

THe other thing is that Mariner, who we should all assume is Kelly's unnamed source, rehashing all this shit now is just causing further deterioration between Toronto FC and the league. THis shows why we desperately need a new President that is respected in the league and can mend some of these relationships that have clearly gone south.

[narduch]

Nice breakdown of Kelly's article from The Score's soccer blog:

http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2012/10/29/kelly-on-toronto-fc%E2%80%94what-is-this-i-dont-even/

[Ajax TFC]

Mariner, who we should all assume is Kelly's unnamed source
I've seen several times that Mariner is assumed to be the source. I'd like to point out a few things in the article that suggest this:

Winter’s taste for fussy discipline was already beginning to turn players against him in 2011. On the road, they were often confined to the team hotel during the evening. If they were allowed to leave, they were instructed to go out sporting full Toronto FC kit. In warmer climes, they weren’t allowed to wear flip-flops. Anything but team-issue socks and runners were verboten.
“That’s the way you treat kids in an academy, not grown men,” one source close to the team said.
This is exactly the sort of thing that Mariner seemed to be in direct opposition to. The very first thing that he did when he took over was give the players lots of freedom (which resulted in three of them getting arrested). It would then make sense that Mariner would bring insignificant shit like this up to slag Winter. I don't think there are that many other people who think that expecting professionals to act like it is a horrible thing.


He was repeatedly given scouting reports on overseas upgrades. Though the team desperately required reinforcement, no decision was ever made. Winter hadn’t bothered watching the tapes.
as the person in charge of scouting, this puts the blame for not signing players on Winter, whereas before all "sources" said that Winter was trying to sign players and Mariner was standing in the way. Saying this directly shifts the blame from his department to Winter's

He decided to off-load out-of-sorts midfielder Julian de Guzman, whose job was being done by Terry Dunfield for roughly one-20th the cost.
There's no way Kelly knows enough about this team to know that, and this statement is a direct reflection of how Mariner clearly felt. Anyone who watched the team could see that Dunfield wasn't doing better than de Guzman, he was just cheaper, and the team got worse after we got rid of him.


— another player Winter never warmed to —
If Winter never warmed to Dunfield, why the fuck did he play him in almost every game this season? Seriously, this isn't even part of my point, but why the fuck did he play him if he didn't like him?

Here's the dead give away:

A week later, he watched Sweden vs. England at Euro2012. His eye drifted to Olof Mellberg (http://www.villarrealcf.es/es/defensas-villarrealcf/mellberg), once one of the best defenders in the world. At 35 years of age, Mellberg was not young, but Mariner was thrilled by the crispness of his game. He also knew Mellberg was available.

When did Mariner, in an interview, talk about what he liked about Melburg? seems like an indicator that Kelly was talking directly to Mariner at some point.


Everything in the article stinks of Mariner's opinion way to much to be some third party in TFC's observations. There's no way there's other people in TFC with the exact same view on soccer that Mariner has

[greatwhitenorf]

Nice breakdown of Kelly's article from The Score's soccer blog:

http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2012/10/29/kelly-on-toronto-fc—what-is-this-i-dont-even/

This thread's already done that. And a day sooner. Not where I go to read about MLS.

As for Cathole Kelly, I'm sure he's taking malicious glee at stirring up the shit between the club and fans. You have to recall that the Star worked to discourage the development of soccer in this city. Pre-MLS, they'd routinely hype up negative soccer events but give only provide sporadic, uneven coverage of the game in general. Dave Perkins, their top columnist at the time, wrote a number of vindictively-toned articles opposing the building of BMO Field, MLSE's ownership, moaning about stadium naming and management rights issues and sneered, on radio as well, at the possiblity of pro soccer returning and prospering. And Kelly's coverage, from game 1 in Columbus, has always been tinged in sarcastic disapproval.

It's the worst sports section in the city. Sour, powerless whibbling that doesn't matter anymore.

[ryan]

This thread did that for him. And a day sooner. Not where I go to read about MLS.

Still nice to have it up there, more of this message needs to be seen. Fuck Kelly and Larson, shit bums don't deserve to be read. Corrupt cunts.

[TOBOR !]

“I want to move on from Mellberg,” is all Mariner will say of that deal now, with no small trace of bitterness.

But people with knowledge of the deal point to that saga, rather than the initial losing streak, as the nadir of the Toronto FC season.


I'll at least give Kelly credit for this (no doubt) unintentional bit of cleverness

[MarkEightThree]

I'd love for Winter to address all of this bullshit in a tell-all interview, but the fact that he's probably too classy to do so is even better. Regardless of the results on the field, I enjoyed seeing the professionalism he brought to the club, including the small things like dress attire.

[TOBOR !]

I'd love for Winter to address all of this bullshit in a tell-all interview, but the fact that he's probably too classy to do so is even better. Regardless of the results on the field, I enjoyed seeing the professionalism he brought to the club, including the small things like dress attire.

He's probably restricted by a non-disclosure clause at this time. Hopefully this will all come out in his memoirs. I'm sure we won't learn anything we didn't already know.

[nfitz]

I've seen several times that Mariner is assumed to be the source.While there's little doubt that Mariner would have talked to Kelly (why wouldn't he have ... he's approachable enough, and it's an obvious person to talk to - and the article does quote him after all), I don't know why the assumption there isn't other sources. The article refers to both "multiple sources around the club" and later "one source" and then "another source". It also refers to "a league source" - which presumably is different than the "multiple sources around the club".

Given the article says “I want to move on from Mellberg, is all Mariner will say of that deal now," and then says more from "people with knowledge of the deal", that is pretty clear that Mariner isn't the source on that issue - unless it's a reference to an old comment.

If one really objects to what is being said here, and believes that Mariner is the sole source for this (other than the league source, I suppose), then that's a serious allegation about his journalistic integrity, and one should make a complaint to the Star's Public Editor (Kathy English formerly of the Canadian Oxford Dictionary if I remember correctly) and/or the Ontario Press Council. And to be honest, I have done this previously with Kelly's writing.

[ensco]

Thread needs to be renamed. My suggestion:

Toronto Star blames Winter for Everything Except Global Warming

[jloome]

If one really objects to what is being said here, and believes that Mariner is the sole source for this (other than the league source, I suppose), then that's a serious allegation about his journalistic integrity, and one should make a complaint to the Star's Public Editor (Kathy English formerly of the Canadian Oxford Dictionary if I remember correctly) and/or the Ontario Press Council. And to be honest, I have done this previously with Kelly's writing.

I've been a reporter for more than 20 years. It's quite common in sole-source stories for reporters to try to disguise their source by saying "sources". It's not particularly ethical, but reporters have been doing it for decades. You could complain to the press council all you want, but without evidence -- other than a functioning frontal lobe, that is -- the press council would do nothing. And since one-on-one conversations are, by definition, between the two parties involved, you'd never be able to prove it.

So this is a horseshit argument. Besides this article doesn't pass any basic quality check; too many unanswered questions. This is just a columnist allowing himself to be used in order to get something easy and controversial. It's immeasurably cheap, especially without any comment or rebuttal from any other sources.

Then again, given your propensity to do nothing but defend MLSE, immeasurably cheap and one-sided might be right up your alley.

[jloome]

About three weeks ago I was watching the team play, and Aaron Maund was in the holding role. He dropped too deep -- he was right on the edge of the 18-yard box -- and I thought "Jesus Christ, he did exactly the same thing in the last two games. Don't these idiots watch tape?"

And then an article comes out in which a source says Winter made them watch too much tape. Winter's English wasn't great. Does it occur to Kelly or his source that perhaps he was trying to physically show players what they're doing wrong?

So many of this team's mistakes are down to concentration, not technique. We have a team full of guys who can't keep their head in the game long enough to hold basic form. And one of the ways you correct that is by taking any debate out of the equation: if you show them the mistake, repeatedly, in a room full of their colleagues, they are more likely to stop making it.

Monday morning film has been a tradition in the NFL for 40 years for this very reason. It's used by every club in Europe. Players hate it, and obviously one ex-striker fails to see the merit. He may also fail to see that not all of his players are ex-England internationals. THey need to learn.

Again, I'm not going to rewrite history and say Winter was a good coach. But he may have been a hard taskmaster, and it's obvious Canadian players need this. REmember Holger Osieck? He enforced basic curfew rules on the road, and both Jim Brennan and Mark Watson led a fucking coup against the guy.

We have spoiled, over-entitled players and often just "football dumb" players on this continent, used to doing things their own way with minimal interference, using strength and speed to make up for a reading of the game and an understandding of a team role. And it seems our director of player personnel foisted a bunch upon TFC.

[nfitz]

I've been a reporter for more than 20 years. It's quite common in sole-source stories for reporters to try to disguise their source by saying "sources". It's not particularly ethical, but reporters have been doing it for decades. You could complain to the press council all you want, but without evidence -- other than a functioning frontal lobe, that is -- the press council would do nothing. And since one-on-one conversations are, by definition, between the two parties involved, you'd never be able to prove it.Agreed. The real confrontation would be between Kelly and his own editor and/or the public editor. Presumably his own editor would at least know who his sources are, and would (or should) suspect if something was up.


Then again, given your propensity to do nothing but defend MLSE, immeasurably cheap and one-sided might be right up your alley.I don't see the need to be rude here. And I don't see the need for you to mischaracterize me. I've attacked MLSE many times in the past - heck, I probably went too far calling for Cochrane's dismissal on occasions in 2010, 2011, and 2012.

So why do you try and twist the truth when you don't like what I say now?

[Initial B]

Everything in the article stinks of Mariner's opinion way to much to be some third party in TFC's observations. There's no way there's other people in TFC with the exact same view on soccer that Mariner has
I'd argue that this could have come from Cochrane. He's just as much on the hotseat at Mariner is and I'm sure he wants the TFC President position. He puts this out to get Mariner indebted to him for buffing his good points. Then again, this could have come from Beirne as this reads like a marketing pamphlet. If either of those two end up as president, this franchise will have no hope of improving as long as they are in power.

[Alonso]

here ya go http://www.virtualsportsnetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/suicide.gif


Thank you.

I must have missed that one... :drinking:

[ryan]

we could also keep with the times, suicide smiley is a bit dated, time to flip some tables (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

[DoubleUp]

About three weeks ago I was watching the team play, and Aaron Maund was in the holding role. He dropped too deep -- he was right on the edge of the 18-yard box -- and I thought "Jesus Christ, he did exactly the same thing in the last two games. Don't these idiots watch tape?"

And then an article comes out in which a source says Winter made them watch too much tape. Winter's English wasn't great. Does it occur to Kelly or his source that perhaps he was trying to physically show players what they're doing wrong?

So many of this team's mistakes are down to concentration, not technique. We have a team full of guys who can't keep their head in the game long enough to hold basic form. And one of the ways you correct that is by taking any debate out of the equation: if you show them the mistake, repeatedly, in a room full of their colleagues, they are more likely to stop making it.

Monday morning film has been a tradition in the NFL for 40 years for this very reason. It's used by every club in Europe. Players hate it, and obviously one ex-striker fails to see the merit. He may also fail to see that not all of his players are ex-England internationals. THey need to learn.

Again, I'm not going to rewrite history and say Winter was a good coach. But he may have been a hard taskmaster, and it's obvious Canadian players need this. REmember Holger Osieck? He enforced basic curfew rules on the road, and both Jim Brennan and Mark Watson led a fucking coup against the guy.

We have spoiled, over-entitled players and often just "football dumb" players on this continent, used to doing things their own way with minimal interference, using strength and speed to make up for a reading of the game and an understandding of a team role. And it seems our director of player personnel foisted a bunch upon TFC.


Great post! jloome.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Nice breakdown of Kelly's article from The Score's soccer blog:

http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2012/10/29/kelly-on-toronto-fc—what-is-this-i-dont-even/

Fuck, the comment section is great.

Roogsy says:
10.29.12 @ 2:30 PM EDT (http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2012/10/29/kelly-on-toronto-fc%e2%80%94what-is-this-i-dont-even/#comment-40307) REPLY (http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2012/10/29/kelly-on-toronto-fc%E2%80%94what-is-this-i-dont-even/?replytocom=40307#respond)

As an insider on the DeRo saga, I can tell you the Kelly article is about as accurate as Dunfield’s passing skills.

[denime]

John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro) Latest sportsnet.ca audio: Mariner tells @FAN590 (https://twitter.com/FAN590) that #TFC (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC&src=hash) made progress under him -http://www.virtualsportsnetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/suicide.gif (https://twitter.com/Sportsnet)- http://bit.ly/S8JFDp (http://t.co/yl91zxql) - #tfc (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23tfc&src=hash) @Sportsnet




(https://twitter.com/Sportsnet)

[ag futbol]

I hope he keeps talking. Next year it's all going to be laid bare.

Everyone ready the excuses for next season now, there will be plenty.

[ensco]

A pissing contest has sort of erupted around the Score critique of these Kelly articles. See the tweets of the Score editor who wrote that....

https://twitter.com/RWhittall

[jloome]

A pissing contest has sort of erupted around the Score critique of these Kelly articles. See the tweets of the Score editor who wrote that....

https://twitter.com/RWhittall

My entire industry is shit. Sports has been the worst of it for a long time, dependent on the turn-of-phrase of the writers to carry it over objectivity, balance and ethical behavior.

[ag futbol]

^ The most interesting thing about this whole episode is watching these lemmings all scurry behind each other after Whittall (as a relative outsider) actually took a shot at their objectivity.

Says a lot about how the media works around there. Pretty sad...

[Belfast_Boy]

wow, i'm laughing here. read it a couple of days ago and it's still good for a chuckle. what a load of horseshit. excuses are like assholes..... everybody has one.
this is pure spin. look who benefits the most and where it's aimed.... very sad.

[Wull]

^ The most interesting thing about this whole episode is watching these lemmings all scurry behind each other after Whittall (as a relative outsider) actually took a shot at their objectivity.

Says a lot about how the media works around there. Pretty sad...

on the plus side, it does have some of the regular TFC media interacting more with supporters just now. I also like the sheer fire that people are showing both pro and anti this whole situation. It's markedly different from the last few home games

[OgtheDim]

I still get the feeling that most of the media has no clue who Cochrane is and his role in all this. This give Anselmi cover to not do serious change with TFC.

Which means that even though Mariner will probably be gone a year from now and we will be once again rebuilding (with a lot of Mariner focused players being let go at that point), we won't really have much change going on.

[TFC_Allez]

It's incredible how many TFC writers and columnists just keep coming out of the woodwork and are somehow able write their pieces with the conviction of someone who's been following the scene since day one.
I can't really say I enjoy reading any of the beat-writers pieces anymore. There's nothing insightful about anything out there and there are very few writers who will even bother asking the tough questions. Seems like much of the time the articles that are pumped out are just "fill the void" type stuff.

[ryan]

It's incredible how many TFC writers and columnists just keep coming out of the woodwork and are somehow able write their pieces with the conviction of someone who's been following the scene since day one.
I can't really say I enjoy reading any of the beat-writers pieces anymore. There's nothing insightful about anything out there and there are very few writers who will even bother asking the tough questions. Seems like much of the time the articles that are pumped out are just "fill the void" type stuff.

No kidding.

TSN had 3 consecutive days of posting "Mariner's gonna right the ship" articles of fluff, but have since pulled 2 of them. Wonder if someone saw me ranting about it on the MLS site, where the same fluff is being posted.

[billyfly]

Why can't this be true and TFC FO still suck?

I say its the combo kind alike the shocker.

http://www.the-games-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Shocker.jpg (http://www.the-games-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Shocker.jpg)