MLS, NASL discussed partnership, USL now in discussions

[ag futbol]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/10/18/throw-mls-nasl-closer-working-partnership


This season, MLS clubs sent 11 players on either short-term or long-term loans to NASL sides. That’s a number that has trended steadily upwards since the NASL’s inaugural season in 2010.

Players like Bryan Arguez, Conor Shanosky, Michael Tetteh and Josue Soto (pictured above) are by no means big stars, mind you. But they all have one thing in common: They’re young players with big potential who have found minutes hard to come by on their respective first-team rosters. And continuous run-outs in the MLS Reserve League may not be an accelerated enough learning curve.

“We know for a fact there are some really quality players on MLS rosters that don’t get enough playing time to become better players,” David Downs, the NASL commissioner who's moving on to new challenges this winter, tells MLSsoccer.com. “We believe if they were playing in our league in front of 4,000 to 6,000 fans, with real men in real competition, that’s a better situation for them.”
Finally this gets at what this league has been missing for such a long time: a place for players to play who have potential but aren't ready to make the large jump between being a youth stand-out and a contributing professional. This should be very useful for a team like TFC that's producing a decent number of prospects through its academy.

[Suds]

I don't know much about the NASL. Would this be an option for the TFC Sr. Academy Team?

From what I understand they are looking for for another league to play in. (or was that the jr. academy??)

[Red CB Toronto]

I don't know much about the NASL. Would this be an option for the TFC Sr. Academy Team?

From what I understand they are looking for for another league to play in. (or was that the jr. academy??)

Pit would not work for the senior academy team as that would make them professional. Now if the Reds decided to go to a professional academy format and not keep it NCAA friendly it would work. I am also pretty sure management will be looking for a place to loan out Quillan Roberts next year to get him some minutes.

[Ajax TFC]

TFC should try and get an NASL team, put it in the GTA (Brampton or Vaughn would be good locations) and loan loan their prospects to it. Essentially make it a proper reserve team

[prizby]

I don't know much about the NASL. Would this be an option for the TFC Sr. Academy Team?

From what I understand they are looking for for another league to play in. (or was that the jr. academy??)

Would work as a decent option as an in between for the senior academy and MLS; imagine if MLSE owned a team say in Ottawa then they could just ship their players off to the NASL for a year or two to develop until they are ready to come up to MLS

[Oldtimer]

It's great to see some steps going on in this direction, it's a logical step forward for football in the U.S. and Canada.

The Whitecaps and the Impact have been pushing for something like this for some time. Both of them were instrumental in setting up the D-2 NASL before they joined MLS, and both of them have kept their memberships active in the league, although they don't currently have teams playing there.

The logical step IMO, is to have MLB-style affiliate teams... which may be either independently funded and run teams or MLS-club owned teams (which Vancouver and Montreal want -- think Whitecaps II and Impact II).

This has great benefits for both sides, and for football as a whole. For the NASL, they would get an infusion of cash and quality talent, and a stream for their players to be called up to. For MLS, their players get a chance to play more... and it's still low-cost but way better than the reserve league (which is a joke). For football as a whole, the integration of D1 and D2 will lead to a much more consistant development model across a broader spectrum of players - that can only be a good thing.

It's highly unlikely that any deals will be struck with the USL D-3 league, due to the USL's ownership and different vision, but still it looks like steps towards what other countries have as far as integration goes. This also models what is being done with other pro leagues in North America as far as the model for affiliation goes.

[TOBOR !]

TFC should try and get an NASL team, put it in the GTA (Brampton or Vaughn would be good locations) and loan loan their prospects to it. Essentially make it a proper reserve team

TFC will get relegated to the NASL, so you won't have to worry.

[Fort York Redcoat]

TFC will get relegated to the NASL, so you won't have to worry.

Wouldn't be the first Toronto side to...

(Exiled to Mississauga no less!!)g:D

[narduch]

I actully thought the time was ripe for an NASL franchise in Toronto. The only real issue was where to play? Maybe a fixed up Lamport?

But I think TFC's price reduction kills that chance.

[tfcmanu]

Affiiations:

Montreal Impact would be affiliated with SC Ottawa ( However this may change and Montreal would put a team in Quebec City)
Toronto FC would be affiliated with Hamilton SC (eventually would get a team) or OTTAWA if Montreal picks Quebec City.
Vancouver Whitecaps would be affiliated with Edmonton FC

[Oldtimer]

Affiiations:

Montreal Impact would be affiliated with SC Ottawa ( However this may change and Montreal would put a team in Quebec City)
Toronto FC would be affiliated with Hamilton SC (eventually would get a team) or OTTAWA if Montreal picks Quebec City.
Vancouver Whitecaps would be affiliated with Edmonton FC

Good speculation, but I expect the Impact and the Whitecaps to put in their own teams. That's why they've kept their NASL memberships active. TFC could eventually affiliate with an independent team, though, like one in Hamilton.

[Initial B]

I would think that a more central location in southern ontario might be a better place to put a team, say London. But in the meantime, I think Ottawa would be the place for TFC to affiliate with in the short term.

So how many NASL teams could Canada support and stock with Canadian Players? I could see Calgary, Winnepeg, Hamilton and Quebec City in addition to Ottawa and Edmonton. I would like to see a mandate from those teams to stock them with Canadian Players and develop them. I think that would make the most of the stepping stone between PDL and MLS, and would give us a decent canadian championship format with at least 8 teams.

[Yohan]

I would think that a more central location in southern ontario might be a better place to put a team, say London. But in the meantime, I think Ottawa would be the place for TFC to affiliate with in the short term.

So how many NASL teams could Canada support and stock with Canadian Players? I could see Calgary, Winnepeg, Hamilton and Quebec City in addition to Ottawa and Edmonton. I would like to see a mandate from those teams to stock them with Canadian Players and develop them. I think that would make the most of the stepping stone between PDL and MLS, and would give us a decent canadian championship format with at least 8 teams.
Voyageurs Cup and US Open Cup could get really weird if affiliate/reserve team ends up playing the parent team

I can see this work, but it'll take a while to streamline the setup and to ensure the quality of play in NASL doesn't drop. No team in MLS can field a competitive team in NASL with only reserve and academy players IMO right now.

[C.Ronaldo]

i prefer to keep NASL seperate league, make MLS compete angainst NASL.

besides, MLS quality isnt leaps and bounds better than NASL.

[Yohan]

i prefer to keep NASL seperate league, make MLS compete angainst NASL.

besides, MLS quality isnt leaps and bounds better than NASL.

financially, NASL will never be able to compete against MLS. any D2 league will have hard time doing that, especially when prime soccer markets are already taken by MLS, except few untapped markets. love NASL is keeping Florida interested in soccer, and I hope Orlando City makes a move to NASL soon.

if NASL can't compete financially, then they can't attract the quality players to compete against MLS. a lot of NASL have familiar former MLS players on their teams, but they are mostly depth guys, with only few guys be able to compete for a starter position in an MLS team, if any at all. San Antonio Scorpions won NASL regular season, but you note names like Jeff Cunningham (35 and on his last legs), Matt Gold, Kevin Harmse, etc...

Partnership makes perfect sense between the two leagues. NASL can use the transfusion of new blood and financial support from MLS, who need a decent professional league to give talented youngsters game time, while together increasing the support for soccer across North America.

[MarkEightThree]

I like the idea of having the affiliations with MLS clubs short of actually calling the teams 'B' or '2'. I know it works in Europe with leagues such as BBVA Adelante, but people here might view it as Mickey Mouse. Hell, TFC still has problems winning over fans from the 'old country'.

The former NASL Commissioner spoke about competing with MLS and made it a point to mention that he doesn't want to rival the MLS or even be in the same markets as the first division. Their goal [I'm not sure if it's changed since he left] was to be the top choice for soccer in every community they were a part of, which they are. The top soccer teams in San Antonio, Edmonton, Minnesota, Carolina, etc are NASL clubs. Keeping with that theme, a relationship could work where MLS teams don't necessarily own, but affiliate themselves with nearby NASL clubs. Let these NASL clubs build they're own brands, much like AHL teams do. The OSEG-owned Ottawa club could take-in Montreal players and a new club playing in Hamilton's reno'ed Ivor Wynne could be a destination for TFC players. I think everyone wins in that situation. And could you imagine V-Cup matches between Hamilton and TFC??

[Initial B]

I wasn't thinking of NASL farm teams per se, but perhaps the MLS sides could loan out players to the NASL squads, sort of like what TFC is doing with Plata in SA.

[MarkEightThree]

Forgot to mention as well, the US soccer association has guidelines that the league remain 75% American.

Maybe the on-again/off-again Canadian D2 league is a better place for our teams to grow Canadian players, should the league ever get off the ground. The CSA Prez seems pretty serious about it now:


Last year, the CSA commissioned a study to look at the feasibility of such a league and those findings are currently before the CSA board. Today, Montagliani laid this problem out bare.


"Creating this is imperative to ensure what happened on Tuesday doesn't repeat itself. We need to fill in the vacuum under the MLS level with a division two-type league," he said.

Montagliani added he wants that discussion to begin in the next 60 days.



Full article from CBC.ca here: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/opinion/2012/10/wanted-dynamic-technical-director-for-canadian-soccer.html?cmp=rss

[Yohan]

http://nasn.tv/2012/mls-working-with-usl-pro-on-reserve-league-integration/

MLS looking to integrate reserves with USL pro (tier 3)

[Detroit_TFC]

In general and without getting into the detail, the concept is a very good step forward. Despite efforts to make the reserve league more meaningful most agree it is a dud.

Getting into the details, this is going to be difficult to launch this. USL Pro doesn't match up well with MLS geographically, forcing MLS teams to either affiliate with a distant USLP team or create one. If every USLP team is supposed to have an MLS counterpart, somebody is going to be out of luck. Roster integration, especially with existing USLP teams might be tricky. I'm doubtful this is going to make it to the start line in 2013. Maybe some of elements of it, like the eight teams partnering up with MLS teams, could happen by summer.

More: what does this mean for US Open Cup, Canadian Cup?

[Fort York Redcoat]

They need to firm up which direction to take.

If it's loan deals then there's no problem with the cup competitions. If it's a farm system relation that means call-ups then the competition is snookered.

[Oldtimer]

It's highly unlikely that any deals will be struck with the USL D-3 league, due to the USL's ownership and different vision,


http://nasn.tv/2012/mls-working-with-usl-pro-on-reserve-league-integration/

MLS looking to integrate reserves with USL pro (tier 3)

I eat my words, that is a real shocker, totally different from how both leagues have acted in the past. A good move IMO.

It turns it into something a bit like we've seen for a long time in baseball, with farm teams and a certain pool of call-upable players,

[MarkEightThree]

Someone was asking about the newly created page for a U23/College squad on the TFC Academy page, could this be it? I'm not familiar with how the USL Pro works within college eligibility rules.

[Oldtimer]

New info on the MLS/USL likely partnership:

http://aol.sportingnews.com/soccer/story/2012-12-20/growing-soccer-in-america-mls-usl-partnership-needed-to-help-cultivate-young-us-

This is huge.

[ag futbol]

^ hoping we go the full way with this and don't simply send a few players to Rochester...

[Initial B]

Yep, Major and Minor leagues are something the average North American fan understands. I think there are cities out there who will support this set-up. In Canada? Not so many options due to the smaller population and geographical distsnace.

[tfcmanu]

TFC could be affiliated with Hamilton or Ottawa and the Impact with Quebec City ...Vancouver will have Edmonton this is interesting what happens with the Voyageurs Cup tournament???

[MarkEightThree]

TFC could be affiliated with Hamilton or Ottawa and the Impact with Quebec City ...Vancouver will have Edmonton this is interesting what happens with the Voyageurs Cup tournament???

Ottawa and Edmonton are in the NASL, one league above the USL-Pro. There aren't any existing nearby teams, so TFC would most likely create a team to play out of Downsview or shift their CSL team to this league. Impact could potentially do the same thing.

[Toronto]

The NASL won't be around in 3 years.

http://www.rantsports.com/soccer/2012/12/22/nasl-hurting-now-with-bad-precedent-set-dealing-with-cosmos/

[Greatest Ripoff]

The NASL won't be around in 3 years.

What are you basing this on? The fact Puerto Rico isn't doing well? Or do you have other information?

[Fort York Redcoat]

What are you basing this on? The fact Puerto Rico isn't doing well? Or do you have other information?

Clearly it's just opinion.

This game is always changing structure at some level here in NA. NASL is a venture to improve the overall level of play here. The league is so small and young that they will be talked about as unstable for years. I'm glad for the exodus of stronger teams to try and add a level to the NA structure. Especially since there was so much animosity or bad feels about some of the USL structure.

[Yohan]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2013/01/23/mls-usl-pro-reach-deal-restructured-reserve-league

http://uslpro.uslsoccer.com/home/690349.html

Formal announcement

for 2013, 4 USL teams will have MLS affiliations. Those 4 MLS teams will not be fielding a team in 2013 MLS Reserve League. USL teams will play home and away game vs an MLS reserve team, and the results will count in respective leagues.

reading between the lines, 2014 seems to be the year where USL is reorganized with MLS reserve teams joining in, for those MLS teams that wish to field a team in USL

[Yohan]

Sporting KC announces 2 year affiliation with Orlando City

http://www.whec.com/news/stories/s2905701.shtml?cat=565

Rochester Rhinos to be affiliated with New England

http://www.whec.com/news/stories/s2905701.shtml?cat=565

In an affiliated team, the MLS team has to send at least 4 players to USL affiliate's team

[ag futbol]

This is good news. Glad we're going to do our own thing and not affiliate with Rochester.

Hopefully the next stage of this comes to fruition shortly: ie. reserve league teams playing games in USL or the reserve league bulking up on the number of games it plays.

[Shway]

This is good news. Glad we're going to do our own thing and not affiliate with Rochester.

Hopefully the next stage of this comes to fruition shortly: ie. reserve league teams playing games in USL or the reserve league bulking up on the number of games it plays.

Agreed.

We spent all the money on the training facilities and such. Why not continue it with the reserve team, this is really exciting.

Academy players will now have the option to play play on the reserve team year round, and go to university/college at home

[ag futbol]

Agreed.

We spent all the money on the training facilities and such. Why not continue it with the reserve team, this is really exciting.

Academy players will now have the option to play play on the reserve team year round, and go to university/college at home
Yeah let's hope for a real solution this time out.

The reserve league in the past was even worse than advertised. Not only were there very few games, but teams also used them for a variety of different reasons. TFC pushed their own young players aside at times to make room for trialists, guys trying to regain fitness, or whatever else was on the short term agenda. That's great if they played 30 times a year, but when that number is 10? That has to be seriously deflating for guys trying to become better professionals and get some game time.

Not that this is a TFC specific problem though... it's very much league wide.

[Yohan]

http://blogs.democratandchronicle.com/devo/?p=8668

More thoughts, from USL/Rochester POV

[Yohan]

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?4141-TFC-to-play-in-MLS-reserve-league-in-2013

No USL affiliation for TFC in 2013. TFC will have a reserve team.

[Yohan]

http://the11.ca/2013/01/24/montagliani-csa-wont-sanction-usl-clubs-as-official-div-3-teams-in-canada/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=montagliani-csa-wont-sanction-usl-clubs-as-official-div-3-teams-in-canada

If a Canadian MLS team puts an USL affiliate in Canada, it won't receive a CSA D3 sanction

[Yohan]

Richmond Kickers set to announce affiliation with DC United

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/latest-news/mls-usl-pro-announce-partnership/article_71c02660-6599-11e2-a87a-0019bb30f31a.html

Philadelphia and Harrisburg City Islanders already has an affiliation prior to this announcement

[Yohan]

TFC Reserves will be playing Pittsburgh Riverhounds twice. These games will be streamed from USL website.

Fri 7 June 7pm @ Pittsburgh
Sun 28 July in Toronto

[Yohan]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2013/01/24/mls-exec-usl-pro-partnership-can-change-soccer-us

more MLS propaganda on the subject, though it says USL president is going to speak with CSA to get D3 sanction for USL

[Detroit_TFC]

Pittsburgh has a nice new 3,000 seat SSS (one of 3 USL-Pro teams with SSS, Charleston and Rochester are the others) riverside on opposite bank from downtown. I was planning a visit there even before the reserve league game was announced.

[TOBOR !]

I like the direction this is going.

[ag futbol]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2013/01/24/mls-exec-usl-pro-partnership-can-change-soccer-us

more MLS propaganda on the subject, though it says USL president is going to speak with CSA to get D3 sanction for USL
I'll be interested to see how that goes. The CSA seems to have put their flag down on the position that we can't be expected to piggyback the US leagues at all levels of the pyramid.

Knowing the way they operate though, they'll lose their backbone and retreat.

[Oldtimer]

I'll be interested to see how that goes. The CSA seems to have put their flag down on the position that we can't be expected to piggyback the US leagues at all levels of the pyramid.

Knowing the way they operate though, they'll lose their backbone and retreat.

The Canadian teams have multiple options if the CSA doesn't budge.

(1) Continue to field reserve teams (probably not the best choice long-run)
(2) Affiliate with U.S. teams (not as unusual as you would think. In MLB, the Blue Jays are affiliated with 6 minor league clubs, only one of which is in Canada)
(3) Try to work out something equivalent between MLS and a yet-to-be-created local league

I think that #2 is the most likely outcome.

[TOBOR !]

I think they'll have to take a look at the setup in England with the leagues below the conference.

Obviously it'll never be as "all-encompassing" as it is over there, but I think this is would serve as a guide (check it out) : http://thepyramid.info/

Also, screw whatever FIFA says and put aside the concept of national leagues. The best solution for soccer in North America (well, Canada and America) is a USSF/CSA partnership to oversee such a construct.

[TOBOR !]

ooo... I might have to get one of these :

http://thepyramid.info/images/poster100.gif

[Oldtimer]

Duane says that the CSA won't stand in the way of Canadian Clubs participating in USL Pro:


And the CSA won't stand in their way. President Victor Montagliani confirmed with CSN today that they have no intention to block the Canadian MLS teams from playing reserve games as part of USL-Pro. The only caveat, he made, was that the reserve teams would not be sanctioned separately from their senior teams and, as such, would not be able to participate in Canadian competitions – most notably the Voyageurs Cup.

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?4144-Sober-Second-Thoughts-An-opportunity-that-needs-to-be-taken

[Yohan]

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/thegoalkeeper/More-details-of-the-Major-League-Soccer-United-Soccer-Leagues-partnership.html

More details

If an MLS team chose to set up an USL team, that USL team can have 30 players, among other things. Avg cost to run an USL team is 2-3 mil/yr

[ag futbol]

^ If you look at the quote from Oldtimer and the post from Yohan that sets up an interesting conundrum.

Looks like we can have a reserve side in USL Pro but not a stand-alone team. MLS is migrating towards a system where every MLS franchise is affiliated with a USL team or has a farm team. CSA really wants their D3 league, but can they get it? I have my doubts. If we get forced into a slow to start, unstable, and sub-par D3 league by the CSA at the expense of a USL franchise I will be pissed. If they insist on this Canadian D3 league they better get it done quick, and properly.

That being said, I fully expect with the MLS clubs being pros and the CSA being amateurs, that whatever the clubs want will eventually happen.

[Yohan]

^ If you look at the quote from Oldtimer and the post from Yohan that sets up an interesting conundrum.

Looks like we can have a reserve side in USL Pro but not a stand-alone team. MLS is migrating towards a system where every MLS franchise is affiliated with a USL team or has a farm team. CSA really wants their D3 league, but can they get it? I have my doubts. If we get forced into a slow to start, unstable, and sub-par D3 league by the CSA at the expense of a USL franchise I will be pissed. If they insist on this Canadian D3 league they better get it done quick, and properly.

That being said, I fully expect with the MLS clubs being pros and the CSA being amateurs, that whatever the clubs want will eventually happen.
http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?4144-Sober-Second-Thoughts-An-opportunity-that-needs-to-be-taken

[ag futbol]

^ Yep that's the same link as OT posted.

In simple terms, between the articles here is what I see (and it's not the implication most people are drawing):
- MLS teams eventually will be required to field separate stand alone entities in USL Pro. Entries by reserve league teams will not be allowed.
- The CSA will not fully sanction a separate team. But you need a separate team long term to participate in USL Pro.
- therefore CSA will not allow full-on participation in USL pro clubs by MLS teams. Probably because they want their own D3 league.

Now some people are taking this strictly as "they won't be able to play in the Canadian Championship but no other restrictions"... that's not the way I am reading it.

[Oldtimer]

I read it that the Canadian teams can have full teams in USL Pro, but these teams cannot have separate ownership and cannot participate in continental play (or qualifying play like the CCL). The difference between a "reserve team" and a "team" is just semantics. What matters is the relationship to the first team.

What the CSA is trying to do is set up a whole pyramid below MLS that will operate in Canada only, because American leagues don't value Canadian players as much as U.S. players. For that, they need money, and the MLS clubs have money. So it's part of a pressure tactic on behalf of the CSA. They don't want to cripple the Canadian clubs, though.

[ag futbol]

^ Fair enough. Hopefully it's just semantics and nothing more than that.

[TFC07]

I don't blame CSA for trying to establish a Canadian league where Canadian kids wouldn't be treated like second class citizen like they do in MLS. I hope we establish a 2nd division league soon. We desperately need it to order to develop young Canadian players for MLS and Europe.

[Yohan]

http://the11.ca/2013/02/20/usl-teams-will-allow-rosters-to-carry-mls-academy-players/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=usl-teams-will-allow-rosters-to-carry-mls-academy-players

USL teams to be allowed to carry MLS Academy players